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View Full Version : Real Tau imagery came from RIFTS



kikkoman
17-01-2008, 03:41
ah, that thread was already closed. Wanted to drop this gem, so starting a new thread.

Can also be a general discussion of "what inspired GW?" Like say, Eldar/Elves=Melniboneans!


*Also, does anyone remember seeing Tau Battlesuit concept art (Jes Goodwin?) around 2000, before the Tau came out? I think there were cables running from the arm guns to the backpack.
Is there anywhere on the internet where it could be found? That would be helpful to my 'studies'

Well, I always figured the Tau to be, yeah they are anime influenced, but the designs bore strong similarity to an ol' anime-influenced RPG in particular

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/17/88620378_08716cbb76_o.jpg

Tau are blue no-nose dudes, yeah. Naruni from Rifts are that. Ok, not too big. But it's the Naruni guns. Those box shooters pictured.

Battlesuit design... from the Rifts book "Triax & the NGR"

Things like the Battlesuit's skinny little legs. Resembles that of Triax armor.
The way the chest is in three segments, a shared design.

Also the Triax general fighty armor could take on heavy shoulder guns mounted on its back. General style of the guns, rectangular and flat.

then the cover, showing the Dynamax power armor in blue. The torso is a similar shape to that of the devilfish. Same sort of view slit too.
And the Dynamax missiles resemble the Tau type.

Now of course RIFTS mecha was anime influenced, in particular from MADOX
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/18/91274474_0427b47553.jpg
the missile pack, those funny legs (except here they're executed wonderfully), torso view port, and so on.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/39/91464256_287d4be476.jpg
three segmented chest design and all.

The guy who designed the RIFTS Triax mecha was definitely lookin' at Madox, but whoever did Tau didn't, but saw RIFTS. I'm sure they looked at other mecha anime too, but there is a strong Rifts influence.


but despite GW's efforts, the Tau battlesuit ended up looking something like... an SD Gundam with a tiny head.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/205/493401284_22fcd915b3_o.jpg

The Orange
17-01-2008, 03:59
Hum, some very nice comparisons there. I can defanantly buy into this rift influence, for the BS inspiration. Are those 2 plastic models from Rifts?



*Also, does anyone remember seeing Tau Battlesuit concept art (Jes Goodwin?) around 2000, before the Tau came out? I think there were cables running from the arm guns to the backpack.
Is there anywhere on the internet where it could be found? That would be helpful to my 'studies'
I believe their is a pick of it in the 1st codex in the armory section.



but despite GW's efforts, the Tau battlesuit ended up looking something like... an SD Gundam with a tiny head.

Lol, almost bust a gut there.

thechosenone
17-01-2008, 04:35
Rifts is a neat concept. What came first rifts or mecha-anime i really don't know. But from that concept the tau are born. I agree more with this thread then the trade federation phantom menace thing

Champsguy
17-01-2008, 05:45
God...


anyway, lets all hug so we know everythings ok.

Rifts is a neat concept. What came first rifts or mecha-anime i really don't know. But from that concept the tau are born. I agree more with this thread then the trade federation phantom menace thing

Mecha anime has been around since like the 1960s. :)

TheNZer
17-01-2008, 07:53
I've always like Tau, having started the hobby after they were realesed the 40K universe just wouldn't be as rich without them.

Those are some good comparisons and come to think of it I make have seen some old Comics at my library with Tau like Figures in them.

Avian
17-01-2008, 10:25
I have deleted quite a bit of spam (and some follow-ups to that) from this thread. I expect to see no more of it and will hand out strikes it this continues. If you have nothing to contribute other than saying you don't like the army, don't post.

- The Moderators

Epicenter
17-01-2008, 10:43
Mecha anime has been around since like the 1960s. :)

Anime with giant robots dates even further back, I think the 1950s - I think Astro Boy (who basically is like a robot is like 1950s). This fascination with giant robots the Japanese has even goes back further. There's some propaganda poster from WW2 (I am SO not joking) of a giant robot demolishing New York - though it's some riveted and probably coal/steam driven giant robot, not some sleek robot we associate with manga/anime today, and I'm figuring the imagery has been around since even before then.

All that said, I'm quite sure that GW was inspired by a number of sources. Given the timing of the Tau army coming out (when GW was opening their first stores in Japan), I think it's pretty clear that the inspiration of anime/manga, which is where Rifts got theirs as well. Amusingly, amongst 40k players in Japan, Tau are not particularly more popular than other armies. In fact, anyone who knows anime can probably guess which army is really popular in Japan...

... Eldar.

Yes, Eldar, as they can be kawaii'ized (well okay, the Japanese can kawaii anything, they could even make Abbadon and Khorne look at home hanging out with Hello Kitty), but you know. Elves. Anime.

thearchiver
17-01-2008, 11:11
I'm still waiting for the drum mini missile launcher :)

Bregalad
17-01-2008, 11:20
It is no secret that Tau Battlesuits lend from Japanese Mecha manga/anime designs that started there as a genre 1956 (with unmanned big robots even older):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecha
... and became even more popular with anime series like Gundam, PatLabor, Macross, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Escaflowne, Transformers and dozens of others.

RIFTS is a very late US-attempt to create a roleplay setting for that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifts
BattleTech as a boardgame ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BattleTech ) and a roleplay game ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MechWarrior_%28RPG%29 ) preceded it.

The Mecha designs are all quite similar, differing more in details than in concept. Generally it is no surprise that Tau design has similarities in various other SciFi-worlds, as it stands for the sleek, mostly rounded, no-nonsense design, in contrast to the various organic designs that are used by the Eldar in 40k.

I am trying to exploit those similarities by converting different Mecha- and anime-products for use with Apocalypse Tau, see the link below.

Filthy O'Bedlam
17-01-2008, 11:31
Really Surprised no-one has Mentioned any of Masamune Shirow's work yet. The Rifts Battlesuits are very similar to both the Landmates and the Hecatonchries system from Appleseed. Especially all the sensor spines. Great comic.

Cheers, Filthy

Daigawn
17-01-2008, 14:59
The 60-80s era anime paved the way for good looking mech type suits, Rifts elaborated and perfected them with the best pen and paper RPG storyline in existance. The Tau are mearly riding the NGRs coattails. Though i personally like Coalition military equipment myself.

intellectawe
17-01-2008, 15:40
There are only so many original concepts for a human sized battle suit. Is it really that surprising that so many different sources of Mech all look the same?

I don't think GW ripped off mecha designs with Tau anymore than they did with IG from regular human soldiers or Tyranids and swarm minded insectizoids. Or Eldar from elves, or squats from dwarves...


I have no issue with Tau looking like Rifts. It happens, a bit of creative over lapping in my humble opinion.

But then again I could be wrong. Maybe the person who designed the first Tau played Rifts and did rip them off. I don't know.

Kyrios
17-01-2008, 15:48
*Also, does anyone remember seeing Tau Battlesuit concept art (Jes Goodwin?) around 2000, before the Tau came out? I think there were cables running from the arm guns to the backpack.
Is there anywhere on the internet where it could be found? That would be helpful to my 'studies'


No but I can mail one to you, cant find out how to do it through warseer though.

Bregalad
17-01-2008, 17:55
Just click "go advanced" then "manage attachments", upload the pic from your computer in the new window and finally "submit reply".

Rioghan Murchadha
17-01-2008, 18:10
There are only so many original concepts for a human sized battle suit. Is it really that surprising that so many different sources of Mech all look the same?

I don't think GW ripped off mecha designs with Tau (snip) Or Eldar from elves, or squats from dwarves...


http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt04spaceelves.htm
Note the product code in the black and white picture where GW refers to the army as 'Space Elves'. Still want to claim that Eldar are not 'elves in space'?

The reason Fantasy predates 40k as a game, is that the GW guys made 40k because it would be cool to play WFB in space. Which is why RT has so much in common with 3rd edition fantasy before they ultimately made 2 divergent game systems.

intellectawe
17-01-2008, 19:04
http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt04spaceelves.htm
Note the product code in the black and white picture where GW refers to the army as 'Space Elves'. Still want to claim that Eldar are not 'elves in space'?

The reason Fantasy predates 40k as a game, is that the GW guys made 40k because it would be cool to play WFB in space. Which is why RT has so much in common with 3rd edition fantasy before they ultimately made 2 divergent game systems.

Wow, you completely misread me and you even misquoted me. I never claimed Eldar are not Elves in space.

Caboose123
17-01-2008, 19:18
Whats the topmost picture in the middle? The one with the cable to back thing?

It looks awesome, like an Armoured Core, really groovy and i would attempt to make my suits like that, maybe the old old archive dreadnought (the roughly man-sized one!)

...And the broadside variant looks awesome too, make a bulkier railgun instead of 2...

Good job!

Kyrios
17-01-2008, 22:46
Ok, lets see...
Did that do it?

Bregalad
17-01-2008, 23:43
Converting it to jpeg and using my method, I come to this result:

dr.oetk3r
17-01-2008, 23:56
Looks really similar i must admit.

Apocalypse
17-01-2008, 23:59
I love the coalition in RIFTS, they seem a PERFECT match for the imperium... I fact, I went with the imperium strictly because it was sooo similar to my old coalition from RIFTS.

Champsguy
18-01-2008, 00:13
Whats the topmost picture in the middle? The one with the cable to back thing?

It looks awesome, like an Armoured Core, really groovy and i would attempt to make my suits like that, maybe the old old archive dreadnought (the roughly man-sized one!)

...And the broadside variant looks awesome too, make a bulkier railgun instead of 2...

Good job!

I believe that's an Ultimax. It's probably roughly on the same power scale as a Crisis Suit. It's in the "alot better than personal armor but not quite as good as a dedicated tank" range.

Warp Zero
18-01-2008, 00:32
The 60-80s era anime paved the way for good looking mech type suits, Rifts elaborated and perfected them with the best pen and paper RPG storyline in existance. The Tau are mearly riding the NGRs coattails. Though i personally like Coalition military equipment myself.

I like the Rifts artwork and all, but I strongly have to disagree with you here. In no way has Rifts "perfected" mech type suits. Mechanical design teams on various anime-mecha shows have done cooler looking mechs before Rifts came along. I can see someone thinking this if all they saw were old late 70's Gundams and then suddenly saw Rift mechs.

But the Rift artist was definitely influenced by Macross (Robotech over here) and such shows. Much like how Inifinty skirmish game is heavily influenced by Appleseed and AT-43 is influenced by Maschinen Krieger. Warcraft by Battlechasers, Battlechasers by Capcom, Lodoss War, etc....

I forgot the name of the artist that did Rifts. I like his stuff a lot, but he is in no way someone who has "perfected" mecha. He has a good head for design, cut his teeth on the Palladium Robotech books, and took his experience drawing mecha from that and did his thing on Rifts.

http://brianscache.com/unseen/vf_1a.jpg

This about the first time I remember seeing a no-face robot look that was replaced with a rectangular area. This predates Rifts. I think this head influenced other that eventually influenced the Crisis Suit head.

http://appleseedd6.tripod.com/Images/DBfront.jpg



Bunny rabbit ear attennas got popularized by "Appleseed". Seen emulated quite often in early 90's Image Comics mecha and recently with Infinity. There is some of this going on in conjuction with other influences with Tau tech too. Dark Horse released english copies of Appleseed around 87 or 88. I don't know how long there were in Japan before coming stateside.

http://brianscache.com/unseen/dougram.jpg


http://www.munkeygames.com/shop/bmz_cache/a/af9a3089809abfe914a05bf034a97daa.image.300x264.jpg
Early 80's anime-mech shows like Dougram (as well as Robotech) had mech designed lifted from Japan and put into FASA's Battletech.

This is a good site that breaks down where each mech from Battletech really came from. Enjoy.

http://brianscache.com/unseen/

I'm actually glad that GW's Tau are not a perfected copy of Japanese anime-mech styles. Whether by accident or not, what has come out in the end is a good combination of something from that world of anime mecha and the world of 40k. There are still bits of Tau tech that feel like they came from the art designer and not from simply borrowing elements from other popular anime mechs. To me, some of the stuff on Infinity look TOO Anime. I love anime, I love Gundam, Macross, Evangelion, Appleseed, Votoms, etc, etc....but I think people should blaze their own path and not lifts styles too heavily from other properties.

kikkoman
18-01-2008, 06:56
Yes, Eldar, as they can be kawaii'ized (well okay, the Japanese can kawaii anything, they could even make Abbadon and Khorne look at home hanging out with Hello Kitty), but you know. Elves. Anime.

Really, where did you hear this?

From the few Japanese sites I've seen, space marines seemed fairly popular, as usual. I've never seen a Japanese Eldar army.

Though I figure that was the appeal of the Eldar to me. Exarch's and Aspect Warriors, reminds me of Ronin Warriors, Saint Seiya and that sort of thing hahah




Really Surprised no-one has Mentioned any of Masamune Shirow's work yet. The Rifts Battlesuits are very similar to both the Landmates and the Hecatonchries system from Appleseed. Especially all the sensor spines. Great comic.


ah, with Shirow. The newer stealth suit designs reminded me of suits from Ghost in the Shell.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/35/88973347_8616c1a0b4_o.jpg
Though the bulb body look seems most associated with Kow Yokoyama (a very fantastic mecha designer, you should google his name for some 'realistic' designs)


coattails. Though i personally like Coalition military equipment myself.
would be a dream to see squads of shiny black Deadboys comin' out of their APC's backed by SAMAS flying power armor. Dogboys scouting ahead, Enforcer and Spiderskull walkers bringing heavy support.



I don't think GW ripped off mecha designs with... It happens, a bit of creative over lapping in my humble opinion.

I don't consider it a rip off either. Building on other's designs is how innovation happens. Creativity doesn't come from an empty box. Great periods of art development in the world have been eras where artists could readily steal ideas from many other artists heh.


Whats the topmost picture in the middle? The one with the cable to back thing?

It looks awesome, like an Armoured Core, really groovy and i would attempt to make my suits like that, maybe the old old archive dreadnought (the roughly man-sized one!)

It's the Triax Ultimax power armor from 'Triax and the NGR', which you can order from
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=810&Category_Code=W800

It's also famous in RIFTS as one of the first power armors with a personal force field generation.


But the Rift artist was definitely influenced by Macross (Robotech over here) and such shows.

and to reinforce the point, Palladium Books (which published Rifts), also did the licensed Robotech RPG. Their artists were all very familiar with Macross mecha.


hmmm, I might as well say what my favorite 40k mecha is. Orks, their killa kans and Deff Dreads. Love their design, so perfectly orky. Pleasant to look at

The Orange
18-01-2008, 07:21
Conceptually the Tau crisis suits no doubt comes from anime/mecha, but IMO the GW's final product, design-wise, is pretty unique. The crisis suit is predominated by many simple shapes and hard lines, and is no where near as intricate/detailed as most of those other mecha. It's blockyness (which unfortunately makes it somewhat ugly as well) sets it apart from the rest IMO.

The FW suits though are a work of beauty :D.

kikkoman
18-01-2008, 08:51
The biggest difference I see in the Tau battlesuits is their lack of hips/abdomen. This sounds goofy, but they also don't have any crotch protrusions to match their chest protrusions. You'll notice with say, Gundams, the area between the legs often sticks out. This also goes a long way in defining abdomen/hips in mecha.

gLOBS
18-01-2008, 09:10
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." -Albert Einstein.