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sshnuke
17-01-2008, 15:23
hi

i am a hordes of chaos player
one of my chaos warriors of khorne unit carry a banner of rage
that is to say that unit can rerole failed broken test and will not lose their frenzy if beaten in close combat
today this unit is broken in a close combat
the enemy unit chased it and captured its banner (together with banner of rage)
so my question is -- are they still frenzy in the following turns?
or they lose their frenzy as they do not have banner of rage any more?

mav1971
17-01-2008, 15:42
Unfortunately they lost the banner so they lost the effects that go with it.

Ganymede
17-01-2008, 15:57
Hmm...

The warriors would normally lose their frenzy once it was established they would lose the combat. The banner prevents this from happening. Even if the unit broke and the banner was subsequently swiped, the warrior unit would still be frenzied until it had another opportunity to be broken.

T10
17-01-2008, 17:51
Agreed. It may seem odd, but it seems to be the proper procedure.

-T10

Briohmar
17-01-2008, 17:53
You can be beaten in CC and not flee, in which case you retain frenzy, but if you lose the banner by running, well, Khorne doesn't like people who run from a fight.

knightime98
17-01-2008, 21:15
Hi,
Unless there is a special rule that allows you to retain frenzy - you lose it anytime you lose combat. Subsequently, if you have frenzy you are not allowed to flee as a charge reaction. So, thereby, if you are fleeing you had to of lost combat... If you lost combat well then you also lose frenzy...
Tell me the last time you have seen fleeing savage orcs who return with frenzy after they rally....
See my point...

On a side note, take a look at Bretonnians they lose their ward save favor when they flee... They don't get that back either... Similar situation...

T10
17-01-2008, 21:21
Uh, whatever.

As G points out, the process is as follows:

1. Get beaten in Close Combat.
2. Lose Frenzy (Banner of Rage prevents this).
3. Take Break test and fail.
4. Lose banner.
5. Flee.

The unit loses the banner but remains Frenzied.

-T10

galenus
17-01-2008, 21:40
It's a rather weird situation but I agree with T10. The banner doesn't state its effect ceases if they break, and I don't know that the rules state a unit can't be fleeing and frenzied at the same time.

knightime98
18-01-2008, 08:09
So, by logic (theory) of T10 (with whom I do respect his opinion) the unit is frenzied still despite it's fleeing. Let's say for a moment that I agree with this...

My next question is hypothetical and a continuation of this situation. Frenzied troops MUST declare a charge to any enemy who is within range. Now, if they are fleeing and see an enemy who is within range - Are they now allowed to Charge that enemy as it is required by the frenzy rule - even though they are "fleeing"....

You see either you are fleeing OR you are frenzied.. You can not be both at the same time... Although - stranger things have happened. I am open to further comments as I am sure they will be coming...

Lastly, in order for the Magic Effect of the banner to persist it must still exist.... Once it is removed or captured it's effect is a non-factor...

Case and point, let's say that an Empire BSB has the banner of the Griffon. Let's say that he is killed. Now does that mean the empire player still gets 6 ranks for a bonus because he "had" the banner.... NO, he does not. Once the banner is lost so are its effects...

Belerophon709
18-01-2008, 08:35
Case and point, let's say that an Empire BSB has the banner of the Griffon. Let's say that he is killed. Now does that mean the empire player still gets 6 ranks for a bonus because he "had" the banner.... NO, he does not. Once the banner is lost so are its effects...

Problem is that the frenzy is not an effect of the banner.

When the Khorne knights lose combat, they would normally lose their frenzy. Since they have the banner, they don't lose the frenzy.

At this point, they still retain frenzy, even though it has been established that they have lost the combat, but break tests are yet to be taken.

They fail their break test and run, losing the banner in the progress. Since the banner doesn't make them frenzy, they don't lose the frenzy simply because they lose the banner.

Problem here is the sequence. For them to lose the frenzy, we would have to establish that they lose combat again after the break test has been taken, which is just not the case.

So they'll retain frenzy if they rally, but should they lose combat again thereafter, they will lose their frenzy as normal, prior to taking break tests.

As for them being within range, fleeing units can't charge. Claiming that they should is like saying ItP-troops rally automatically.

It's a weird situation, but T10 is correct according to RAW.

Nurgling Chieftain
18-01-2008, 08:44
Interesting.
My next question is hypothetical and a continuation of this situation. Frenzied troops MUST declare a charge to any enemy who is within range. Now, if they are fleeing and see an enemy who is within range - Are they now allowed to Charge that enemy as it is required by the frenzy rule - even though they are "fleeing"....It's not all that important. They're not going to charge - they're going to either flee or reform, regardless of whether they declared a charge. (It would be awfully funny, though, if they could fail to regroup and then charge, getting automatically destroyed because they're a fleeing unit which contacted an enemy unit.) Still, it could provoke stand&shoots or Warp Lightning Cannon fleeing, so I guess the question should be answered. It's probably a dice off, actually, since it both has to and cannot declare a charge.


Lastly, in order for the Magic Effect of the banner to persist it must still exist.... Once it is removed or captured it's effect is a non-factor...The frenzy itself comes from the mark, not the banner. Based on the precedent that a frenzied unit which loses combat to an outnumbering fear-causing unit auto-breaks, I think it's fair to say that the loss of frenzy occurs immediately upon losing the combat rather than after pursuit takes the banner.

Festus
18-01-2008, 08:54
It's a weird situation, but T10 is correct according to RAW.
Why is it that I am not surprised?

Yes, I agree, T10 is right, as odd as it sounds ;)

Festus

T10
18-01-2008, 09:36
Well, Ganymede was first to the pot on this one.

-T10

Festus
18-01-2008, 10:05
Kudos to him, then :)
I hope the pot holds something valuable :eek:

Festus

T10
18-01-2008, 12:08
Apparently it's filled to the brim with angry, fleeing Warriors of Chaos.

-T10

Braad
18-01-2008, 12:19
@ Knighttime98

Give an orc boss the Bloodaxe and the rules say he "never" loses his frenzy.
Never also means when he is fleeing. So it is possible. And there are others like these.

But it would be silly to let them charge something while fleeing. Though I don't know exact rules to this.

Griefbringer
18-01-2008, 13:07
Also the carnosaur has blood frenzy rule which prevents it from ever loosing the frenzy (once it gains it).

As for the fleeing, remember that the compulsory movement for the fleeing is done before any charge moves.