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bobmiester
18-01-2008, 06:51
So I gather that Assassins are much stronger/tougher then a normal human, but I doubt they are given a gene seed. So my question is, what makes them so tough? Is there any official fluff on the processes that make an assassin? I've heard of vat grown implanted muscle (I think from the Eisenhorn books) so maybe that is it. Although I'd love to get something from official fluff.

Maggoth
18-01-2008, 07:35
Good quesiton, in the book Dracos it merely states that the assassin mel-lindi(sp) is a superiour killing machine and has trained day and night countless hours in a temple type setting specifically for killing.

However, i too am curious as to how this can be so much more advantageous than a space marines training. Especially since a SM is not only well trained but also genetically enhanced, if they do not have a type of gene-seed they must have some genetic enhancements of some sorts. I think i remember hearing something about different temples(?) or sects carrying down blood lines or something? Anybody got any insight?

Darkseer
18-01-2008, 07:39
Assassins are constantly trained from a very young age, specially selected and vigorously eliminated to reap the creme de la creme.

It's a far more selective process than space marines. Presumably there are less assassins than space marines or we'd have assassin armies all over the place.

They have a bunch of technologies to make them stronger, including combat drugs, stim injectors -hell, the Eversor is pumped up to the eyeballs on all kinds of drugs, hence why he used to explode when killed!

monkey child
18-01-2008, 07:53
With regards to the eversor at least I pretty sure they recieve a great number of implants, as iirc there is a quote about a large number of the initates dying on the operating table. Which to me would not suggest not only hand fulls of blue smarties and cough medicine but lots of biological and possibly mechanical/electronic gubbins as well.

Noserenda
18-01-2008, 07:56
Marines are among the best humanity has to offer, Assasins ARE the best, given superior training in an extremely limited field and then given the best possible equipment, enhancements and augmentation to do their job.

The main difference in their augmentations is the smaller number of subjects, Assasins can be much higher maintainence than marines. Evasors for example have to be kept in stasis between missions of their mad cocktail of drugs and enhancements will literaly explode (like a plasma grenade...) While less dramatic and extreme the other temples probably have similar levels of improvements.

Basically, the Assasin is the absolute top Human level.

Ikkaan
18-01-2008, 08:24
Noserenda beat me to it. Space Marines are autonomous and Assassins are specialized short-term tools. Most Space Marine Candidates would also be fit to become Assassins, but the imperium always has an eye on the cost/usefulness ratio. Better have a lot of special forces than just one surviving supersoldier.

Maggoth
18-01-2008, 08:48
Yea ive heard these claims before and this is fluff based, however i am suspicious as how a normal standard human with superior training and genetic augmentations is better than a super human with advanced training with the direct blood of the so called "all mighty god of all mankind" himself, so im guessing maybe the emeperor isnt so superior if a basic human with no gene-seed and lost of enhancements and training is superior than that of almost the same training and a gene-seed.

Not trying to flame but, simply put GW has alot of fluff loop holes!

Lyonator
18-01-2008, 08:56
Badass imperial technology + insane work ethic + best teachers available + choosing the cream of the crop from thousands of different planets = assassins being hard core.

re: Maggoth: who is to say that no part of the emperor's blood so to speak was not gifted to the various temples? Doesn't seem too far fetched, considering their long history of service, and how important their jobs can be

bosstroll
18-01-2008, 09:03
Yea ive heard these claims before and this is fluff based, however i am suspicious as how a normal standard human with superior training and genetic augmentations is better than a super human with advanced training with the direct blood of the so called "all mighty god of all mankind" himself, so im guessing maybe the emeperor isnt so superior if a basic human with no gene-seed and lost of enhancements and training is superior than that of almost the same training and a gene-seed.

Not trying to flame but, simply put GW has alot of fluff loop holes!

Where do you get the info "direct blood of the emperor"? I've never read anything about this.

CELS
18-01-2008, 09:06
The answer, I'm afraid, is that we don't really know. Punching through steel and climbing sheer surfaces? That's more than just a harsh selection and a life of training. We can only assume that it has to do with organic or bionic implants, but the fluff doesn't really provide a whole lot of information.

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-01-2008, 09:16
Most Space Marine Candidates would also be fit to become Assassins


Actually, I don't think so. The requirements for assassins are much, much higher than the requirements for being selected for assassin training. And then you have to survive the journey to the training facility, and the training.

Space marines are very good soldiers, no doubt about it, but an Imperial Assassin takes it to another level. True, they do not undergo the same geneseed treatment that marines, but I think it's a fair assumption that they are argumented. A good guess would be that there are less assassins than there are marines in just a single chapter(possibly less than a companies worth), so you can afford to train, equip and maintain them at a far higher level. On the other hand, they still have to look human, so you couldn't use marine implants on them even if you wanted to, but there are undoubtedly some argumentation involved. I mean, the Adeptus Mechanicus have a high level of argumentation through large parts of it's Priesthood, so it's not like it's unhead of.

Think something like Cyberpunk 2020, including the humanity loss. I doubt assassins is anything you could really describe as human, they just have to look like one.

jimbobodoll
18-01-2008, 09:39
After recently having read, "Decent of Angels" there is some fluff in there that might be relevant here. Specifically, when The Dark Angels Chapter is reunited with The Lion on Caliban and the best-of-the-best of the normal human knights from that planet are chosen for indoctrination into the Dark Angels, some of them are too old to receive the gene seed.

This little fact however does not preclude their inclusion into the Chapter. Oh no; rather, p.325 describes the medical, and importantly chemical, procedures undergone by older knights in order to enhance their abilities,

"In its place, Hadriel and others like him, including Luther, had undergone an extensive series of surgical and chemical procedures designed to raise their strength, stamina and reflexes to superhuman levels. They were taller, stronger and quicker than normal men, but for all that they were not Astartes."

Perhaps the answer to your question lies there. Although this refers to the Imperium of 30k rather than 40k, the ability to raise a humans strength (re, punching through steel), stamina and reflexes to, "superhuman levels" was once (at least) possible.

All the best,
Jimbooooooooooooooooo

LexxBomb
18-01-2008, 11:09
Yea ive heard these claims before and this is fluff based, however i am suspicious as how a normal standard human with superior training and genetic augmentations is better than a super human with advanced training with the direct blood of the so called "all mighty god of all mankind" himself, so im guessing maybe the emeperor isnt so superior if a basic human with no gene-seed and lost of enhancements and training is superior than that of almost the same training and a gene-seed.

Not trying to flame but, simply put GW has alot of fluff loop holes!

well look at it from a Physics point of view. Size and Scale. just because something is bigger doesn't mean it is better. if we applied real physics to 40k then a Space Marine without armour would be Initive 2 not 4.

if we examine fighting techniques I would assume that SM fight using Strength based Combat styles like Russian Martial Arts, while an assassin would use more refined. to use a Wrestling analogy compare a Muscle bound Grappler like Kurt Angle (I know hes a real Olympic Gold medal winner) against A Luchadore. while Angle is dealdy if he can get a hold of you the Luchadore is much more deadly untilo you can grab him. speed over brawn.

Critias
18-01-2008, 11:26
Anyone that's even a passing fan of cyberpunk sort of literature or games can rattle off a bunch of pseudo-scientific sounding augmentations that still aren't quite to scale with the zany over-the-top modifications a real Space Marine would get. Myomer-fiber bundles replacing natural muscle, tasty cocktails full of various uppers, steroids, and adrenal secretions for extra strength and speed, polymer-reinforced skeletal structures, yadda yadda yadda.

And, of course, training. Training, training, training. If you were to fanatically train someone in a single specialized form of combat/assassination (which the temples do) almost from birth, well, you'd have one freaky-weaky killing machine on your hands when all's said and done. Knowing how to use the strength you have, and knowing where to hit someone so it counts the most, can make up for a size/strength advantage (not to the extent action movies might like to pretend, but still to a pretty impressive extent).

And, last but not least, don't forget that "in game" the difference between an IG strength and a Space Marine strength should be much higher than a STR 3 to a STR 4. The way they describe a Marine, he should be STR 4 outside of his armor (and 5 in it), at least. As it is, though, the tabletop doesn't allow for that degree of granulity, so a 3 to a 4 "jump" is enough to show that assassins are badass (even if it happens to give an assassin the same strength as a Marine, by coincidence).

LexxBomb
18-01-2008, 11:30
we should all play 40k games using the Inquisitor rules. a small 1000pt skirmish would take a couple of days to play. hey i might try that.

silveryfox
18-01-2008, 11:46
Assassins might be 4.1 while Marines are 4.9.

Burnthem
18-01-2008, 12:12
And, of course, training. Training, training, training. If you were to fanatically train someone in a single specialized form of combat/assassination (which the temples do) almost from birth, well, you'd have one freaky-weaky killing machine on your hands when all's said and done.

Exactly, many people dont realise just how much time and effort it takes to train an Assassin, the training and technology they receive is an order of magnitutde above that of the Astartes.

Of course, if anybody had access to augmentative technology from the DAoT, it would be the Assassin Temples, imagine what kind of uber-tech was devised during the Golden Age, the stuff must have been mind blowing, so if only a fraction of this is understood by the Temples it gives them one hell of a scary advantage when it comes to augmenting trainees.

And as mentioned earlier, Assassins are taken from the absolute cream of the crop, from a MILLION different worlds, i honestly think that there is not a person alive today in RL that even comes close to the abilities of an Assassin, nowhere near. (and yes, that includes Chuck Bloody Norris)

horzaman
18-01-2008, 12:43
Another key issue to remember is the differences in the scope of an Assasin's training and the training of an Astartes.

A vindicare assasin is trained to be the ultimate sniper.

An eversor is trainined to be an the ultimate CQB expert.

An Astartes is trained to do both. Every Asartes is trained to do everything. Think of Rambo, not only is he uber in close combat and at range, he is also trained in using a bow. He can also fly an attack helicopter- not just any attack helicopter, but one of the enimies.

It's relatively easy to train a cadidate to be perfect at one thing. it is much more difficult to train them at everything. An Astartes is trained in every aspect of war. The close assault marine that is best at sword work can also fire the devestators heavy weapons with ease.

Another thing to consider is that Assasins and Astartes do completly different jobs. Assasins cannot do the work of Astartes. the same way that Astartes cannot do the work of Assasins. The similarities end at them both being excellent at terminating their targets. Assasins are not shock troops, they know nothing about military tactics compared to an Astartes. The assasins do not need to know about troop movements, formations or close teamwork. All the vindicare needs to know is the wind speed, distance, airpressure and humidity.

That said, an Assasin could easily kill an Astartes. Hey they could probably kill many Astartes. As long as the Assasin chooses his/her ground then i'd say they could most likly take on most things.

Sikkukkut
18-01-2008, 13:22
The Codex Imperialis refers to Assassins using not only their own massively trained and conditioned bodies, but also metabolic boosters provided by their synskins, which are not just protective coating but an artificial extra component of the Assassin's metabolism. The Eversors are the most extreme example of the biochemical tinkering that creates an Assassin but I believe that all the Temples use these treatments to some degree.

I don't have Codex Assassins to hand to ckeck it against, but I'm pretty sure it says similar sorts of things.

Burnthem
18-01-2008, 13:24
horzaman - although i agree with 99% of what you posted, i do think that Assassins would be extremely knowledgable about army tactics, both of the Imperium and of various Xenos scum. I can think of numerous examples that and Assassin would be helped immensely by knowing an Armies tactics and doctrines. If you've got to assassinate an Army commander, you've got to have a pretty good idea of how the 50,000 men surrounding him do thier job :D

Critias
18-01-2008, 13:50
It's the difference between....John Rambo and Jason Bourne.

One is more meant for battlefield combat, an open fight, looking eye-to-eye with their enemy while they slaughter them by the dozen. The other is (for the most part) meant to cause just as much damage, but to do it by being invisible and untrackable. They fight in different ways, kill in different ways, and have the different training to show for it.

But either one of them could kick the ass of the other 99.99999% of the population. ;)

Lord Inquisitor
18-01-2008, 14:22
All assassins are augmented. For example, all assassins have their eyesight augmented with top quality implants, filters, diagnostic info, and so forth. Exactly what and how much augmentation is going to vary by temple.

The different temples are going to vary in absolute strength enormously, the 40K value of 4 should perhaps be considered a representative value. The Eversor is massively stonger than the other temples, for example - he is a finely-tuned killing machine, with numerous implants (secondary heard, brain aumentation, etc). An Eversor, if he really pushes himself, is easily as strong as a Marine.

Also note that the Space Marines are NOT the pinnacle of genetic engineering/augmentation. The primarchs were. The Marines were always designed as a compromise - not the ultimate warriors, but mass-producable. Note also that the Marines were designed for autonomy - the gene-seed is adaptable and relatively simple - every Marine is granted the same gene-seed. The assassins, on the other hand, are engineered to the absolute top quality of personally tailored augmentation.

That said, if you look at the Inquistor values, while assassins are much stronger than, say, Imperial Guard vets, most are still within the realms of human capability. The assassin temples don't put that much emphasis on brute strength! Then again, an assassin with supreme skill and knowledge of the enemy might well be able to do more damage than a stronger or more brutal opponent. Hence in game terms S4

horzaman
18-01-2008, 14:40
horzaman - although i agree with 99% of what you posted, i do think that Assassins would be extremely knowledgable about army tactics, both of the Imperium and of various Xenos scum. I can think of numerous examples that and Assassin would be helped immensely by knowing an Armies tactics and doctrines. If you've got to assassinate an Army commander, you've got to have a pretty good idea of how the 50,000 men surrounding him do thier job :D

Agreed there, thats why i said they know nothing compared too an Astartes :D

I like the analogy of John Rambo and Jason Bourne, allthough i think it could be refined further. I don't see assasins as needing the escape and evasion skills that Bourne is a master at. I can't see why any assasin would need the skills Bourne showed guiding the reporter out of waterloo sation in Bourne Ultimatum for example.
While I agree on the main with the analogy of Bourne, in that they are excellent at killing, i feel they are slightly more militaristic.

Perhaps imperial assasins are more like Solid Snake. They have the sneakyness of both Snake and Bourne, but trained to be more destructive, more in the realms of taking out buildings full of people by themselves, rather than rooms in Bourne's case.
Who knows, perhaps it's more of an imagery thing.

Perhaps we can sum it up and say Assasins are Jason Bourne/Solid Snake (depenind on temple?) and Marines are more like SAS or Spetsnatz.

Chaos Undecided
18-01-2008, 15:09
It would be very dependent on the type of assassin I would have thought a Callidus Assassin would be trained to the highest degree on enemy tactics behaviours etc they are after all the best suited to carry out a stealthy kill on a protected enemy commander. Unless said commander has a habit of walking around in plain sight where a Vindicare would be able to complete the task relatively easily (I've always imagined a Vindicare to be the most common school to be found on a battlefield).

An eversor is just a killing machine pure and simple, a weapon unleashed to cause maximum terror and devastation on its chosen target. Insanely skilled and trained and drugged to superhuman levels of speed and strength but completely dehumanised they probably make even a World Eater seem reasonable. I'm not sure if an Eversor would ever be recovered post operation it probably just keeps killing til it's wounded too much then goes boom.

As for Culexus... well they're just witch killers probably the most specific role on any of the temples.

Lord Inquisitor
18-01-2008, 15:15
Agreed, a Callidus would have to be enormously well-schooled in everything from dinner etiquette to military tactics as well as being one of the most lethal hand-to-hand experts in the Imperium.

Eversors are "reusable", they are typically inserted via special drop pod and after the mission return to the pod for extraction.

MrBigMr
18-01-2008, 15:27
In Codex Catachan, Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken has T4. I don't remember if it's because of his bionic hand that also works as an I4 power fist, as I don't think there was nothing in his profile saying anything about it. Other than that, I don't remember him having any other augmentation. So he's just naturally tough.

Apart from all the things like superhealing blood, second heart, etc. the marine augmentations merely boost their natural growth in puberty. If implanted into a grown up (I believe there has been various such persons in the history of the Imperium), the result would be a tough dude, but far from what a person who's gene-seeds were implanted in the right order at the right time. These individuals make up these lackings with their experience.

MadDogMike
18-01-2008, 16:27
Gee, isn't it obvious? Massive training to the peak of physical perfection and a love for stealth vs. enhanced physical prowess and shiny outfits; assassins are Batman, SM are Superman! And everybody knows Batman can keep up with Superman by cheating :D.

Lord Inquisitor
18-01-2008, 17:09
Good point. It's definately the spandex that does it.

Burnthem
18-01-2008, 17:16
I'd like to think that Assassins can blend in easily with a crowd if needed, especially when you consider that a fair proportion of an Assassin's targets are going to be Human.

Whilst the models portray grinning lunatics with power weapons and metre-long rifles, i expect that an Assassin's ability to act the 'grey man' is almost as important as his/her fighting skills, even an Eversor will fail in his mission if he starts running about killing everything in sight as soon he lands on the planet :D This is also why i like to think of an Eversor as being capable of easily controlling his murderous tendancies, if he can walk up to the target, kill him quickly and quietly and then escape unnoticed then thats what he'll do.

MrBigMr
18-01-2008, 17:33
I'd like to think that Assassins can blend in easily with a crowd if needed, especially when you consider that a fair proportion of an Assassin's targets are going to be Human.
Didn't in one novel one of those polymorphing assassins turn into an Eldar?

But yes, infiltrating non-humans can be difficult. In Xenology same type of an assassin was with a ship that landed on Pech (the Kroot homeworld). While the Kroot didn't know what she was, they sensed that she was different from the rest of the crew.

chrome_ghoul
18-01-2008, 17:44
The strength value of an Assasin is just an abstract value, that combined with there initiative and attacks, shows how nasty they are in hand to hand combat.

I reckon a marine would easily have more brute strength, but an assasin is not supposed to get by on having huge muscles.
A marine could kill you by punching your head off, or kicking right through your chest. An assasin steps in, nerve blocks, throat punches, and breaks your neck in a split second.

Technique, not strength. Thats what an assasin uses.

Burnthem
18-01-2008, 18:12
The strength value of an Assasin is just an abstract value, that combined with there initiative and attacks, shows how nasty they are in hand to hand combat.

I reckon a marine would easily have more brute strength, but an assasin is not supposed to get by on having huge muscles.
A marine could kill you by punching your head off, or kicking right through your chest. An assasin steps in, nerve blocks, throat punches, and breaks your neck in a split second.

Technique, not strength. Thats what an assasin uses.

QFT

If you saw a Marine coming, you'd run, then die.

If you saw an Assassin coming, you'd say 'hiya', and then die :D

Lord Inquisitor
18-01-2008, 18:14
I'd like to think that Assassins can blend in easily with a crowd if needed, especially when you consider that a fair proportion of an Assassin's targets are going to be Human.
True, but the temples achieve this in different ways. The Callidus exemplifies what you suggest. The Vindicare probably is quite adept at what you describe. The Vanus and Venenum temples (given that there is very little solid info on these temples) also excel at this. The Eversor and Cullexus temples, due to the nature of their assassins, don't bother with this.


This is also why i like to think of an Eversor as being capable of easily controlling his murderous tendancies, if he can walk up to the target, kill him quickly and quietly and then escape unnoticed then thats what he'll do.
I don't think the Eversor works like that - the objective when deploying an Eversor is to kill the target, his bodyguards, his family and everyone who knew him. If more subtlety is required, another temple would be chosen.


Didn't in one novel one of those polymorphing assassins turn into an Eldar?]
They've also been known to be able to mimic Orks and Genestealers. Tau presumably wouldn't be a challenge either. But in these cases the assassin requires extensive subdermal augmentation that responds to the polymorphine, allowing such dramatic changes. The downside to such augmentation is that the operative can no longer use polymorphine properly, and can ONLY assume that xenos shape.

stormblade
18-01-2008, 21:39
I don't think that Emperor, as himself, was that strong- it were his psyker powers that 'took the cake'(or whatever eng. proverb would be fitting).

Assassins do indeed gain augmentations and bionic manipulation and loads of drugs and are the best of the best.

Besides it's kind of cool to have some non-astrates humans kicking ass around the galaxy.- I especially like the idea of Culexus eating high ranking haughty Eldar(or even better Dark Eldar) :chrome::skull:

Vaz84
18-01-2008, 21:47
I think Assassins have a quick burnout rate, especially ones that see alot of augmentation. Where's a Marine is no doubt more passionate overall, religious, full of zeal and courage. An Assassin is likely very seperated from morality and personal identity. The whole persona of that Assassin is their temple's method of killing. Its almost just like deamonic posession if you wanna make that draw. The assassin being totally methodical and almost mechanical in their purpose.

The Vindicare likely lives and breathes shot estimation, wind speed, pressure, etc all being second nature to the assassin. Assassins could also be compared to Exarchs of the Eldar, being completely dedicated to the one "path" of the temple.

As someone also mentioned, Assassins likely fight mostly human (chaos renegade for example) targets.

How well do you think a Callidus would do against Harlequins?

Shadey
18-01-2008, 22:06
Keep in mind that an assassin does not need to be taught everything as a matter of course, things like dinner ettiquette and troop movement.

Yes that stuff can come in handy but I see an assassin's training being more general (all though still pretty specialised depending on what temple)

The extra specialisation approriate to the target comes in after the mission has been assigned.

'Ok so the Callidus needs to know formal dancing and the diner ettiquette customs of Praxis 9 in order to get close to the Governer General of Praxis' kind of thing.

In the days, weeks or months between when the contract was made and the target selected but before the kill(excellent way to spend warp travel time) various methods would be used to ensure the assassin has all the relevant information for a target, if it is a general, military behaviour and so on and so forth. For a governer, guard scheduals, procedures etc etc.

This would range from actual physical mock ups of the targets habitat for the assassin to intimatly know the 'terrain' to traditional briefings and intelligence and I would not be suprised if it was some kind of 'flash' training (iirc that or similar techniques for learning vast quantites of information very fast exist in 40k and if it does, almost certainly thats one toy the assassin temples would use) was used to learn absoloutly everything relevant.

How do you think the SAS and other special forces operate, they have their general training yes but do you think that qualifies them to charge right in as soon as they have a mission plan? It can happen if the situation's urgency warrents it but for the most part, there is days, ideally weeks of training specifically for that individual scenario. The SAS that stormed the embassy had trained dozens of times in a mock up that embassy before going in iirc.

I had an idea while reading some of the posts above, a story, as people have mentioned both the Marines and the Assassin temples like to procure the best candidates, I can see the scene now, marine and assassin recruiters both trying to recruit the same promising child.

Actually, that along with a few more incidents to stir the pot, would make an excellent plot for a story where a Marine chapter and an Assassin temple go to war...

FrankManic
18-01-2008, 22:23
(and yes, that includes Chuck Bloody Norris)

Little known fact. Imperial Assassins don't really kill people. They just find their targets and radio the location back to Chuck Norris. As soon as Chuck knows where the target is, it's head explodes.

kikkoman
18-01-2008, 23:15
don't assassins in =I= have high str and toughness, maybe past the abilities of an unagumented human, but space marines are still way higher?

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-01-2008, 23:23
Little known fact. Imperial Assassins don't really kill people. They just find their targets and radio the location back to Chuck Norris. As soon as Chuck knows where the target is, it's head explodes.

Actually, they send it to Lord Saurfang, and he hits the ground with his axe in Orgrimmar. The 'Cleave' from such an attack bends through time, universes, and the Warp to reach the enemy. So there.

MrBigMr
18-01-2008, 23:32
don't assassins in =I= have high str and toughness, maybe past the abilities of an unagumented human, but space marines are still way higher?
Could be. I don't know as our GM is pretty cheap when it comes to characters and gear. But taken that an S3 T3 human is like around 60-70 and an S4 T4 marine is like 250 with his power armor, there's plenty of space to fit between those two. Even if an assassin is S150 T150, he's twice as good as a normal person, far from a marine as well.

Kandarin
19-01-2008, 02:01
This is also why i like to think of an Eversor as being capable of easily controlling his murderous tendancies, if he can walk up to the target, kill him quickly and quietly and then escape unnoticed then thats what he'll do.

Despite some thematic similarities, Eversor aren't exactly Hannibal Lector. They've got all the subtlety and finesse of an orbital bombardment. The Eversor will always kill anyone and everyone in their path until either their handlers tell them to call it or day or they are killed.

For this reason, I can't picture the Eversor Temple being nearly as nitpicky in who they select as the others. The main feature of their regimen is the augmentation, not the quality of the original initiate. On top of this, despite their resilience they must surely have the highest casualty rate of any Temple. So while the Vindicare, Callidus and minor temples need a specific combination of personal strengths, and the Culexus need something very specific indeed, serial killers and pit fighters the Imperium over have 'what it takes' to become an Eversor.

Back on topic, is it ever explained how the Culexus select applicants? The Pariah Gene is always described as fantastically rare, and the Temple only takes those who exhibit it most strongly, leaving 'run of the mill' Pariahs behind to serve as sidekicks in BL literature. On top of that, they're competing with the Necrons for the expressed Pariahs of the galaxy. It seems to me that applying the usual ruthless-as-hell initiate weeding process to this tiny pool of potential Assassins would whittle them down to zero. Are they more reasonable about the survivability of their training, or do they have some vast source of additional Pariahs that isn't covered in most fluff?

Chilltouch
19-01-2008, 02:34
Candidates for Assassin temples are much more specific. We're talking about the top shooters from every system in a sector being tested and the superior one out of them in selected for intense training to produces the best shooter that the Imperium has.

Barltok
19-01-2008, 05:01
It seems to me that applying the usual ruthless-as-hell initiate weeding process to this tiny pool of potential Assassins would whittle them down to zero. Are they more reasonable about the survivability of their training, or do they have some vast source of additional Pariahs that isn't covered in most fluff?

I'm not sure if this is how it works, but wouldn't the name pariah gene imply that it needs to be passed down from parent to child? Killing off everyone that has it would mean no more assassins ever again.

Sekhmet
19-01-2008, 07:33
Marines are among the best humanity has to offer, Assasins ARE the best, given superior training in an extremely limited field and then given the best possible equipment, enhancements and augmentation to do their job.

The main difference in their augmentations is the smaller number of subjects, Assasins can be much higher maintainence than marines. Evasors for example have to be kept in stasis between missions of their mad cocktail of drugs and enhancements will literaly explode (like a plasma grenade...) While less dramatic and extreme the other temples probably have similar levels of improvements.

Basically, the Assasin is the absolute top Human level.

I'd say a Marine of Blood Angels descent who has overcome the Black Rage, like Mephiston (or if you like Goto's books, Ashok) is the absolute best that humanity has to offer.


And Marine vs Assassin... Marines are meant to fight as a team, while assassins are meant to work solo. I've never really heard of a Marine stopping an entire army by himself or wiping out a planetary government single-handedly.


I'm not sure if this is how it works, but wouldn't the name pariah gene imply that it needs to be passed down from parent to child? Killing off everyone that has it would mean no more assassins ever again.
There's probably a complex eugenics program that the Culexus Temple runs. Research into the Pariah gene along with a way to maximize the potential of passing the gene on.

chrome_ghoul
19-01-2008, 10:21
don't assassins in =I= have high str and toughness, maybe past the abilities of an unagumented human, but space marines are still way higher?

IIRC, yes they do. Much higher. But its' there fighting ability, speed, and sagacity that really shine through. Add in state of the art weapons and equipment and they even give Astartes a hard time.

Im not saying1
19-01-2008, 17:31
well look at it from a Physics point of view. Size and Scale. just because something is bigger doesn't mean it is better. if we applied real physics to 40k then a Space Marine without armour would be Initive 2 not 4.

Just to point out. A lot of people think this because they have lots of muscle, but if you read novels and such, some scenes include marines without thier armour on in the training/fighting cages. Here they still operate with inhuman speed and agility.

Baltar
19-01-2008, 17:35
I'd say a Marine of Blood Angels descent who has overcome the Black Rage, like Mephiston (or if you like Goto's books, Ashok) is the absolute best that humanity has to offer.


There are a lot of "very bests", but the best soldiers that are usually active are the Grey Knights, and the best soldiers in the Imperium (assuming that you understand the the Primarchs are all singular beings) are the all mighty Adeptus Custodes, created from the pure geneseed of the Emperor himself, who are to space marines what space marines are to normal humans.

Hasan ibn Sabbah
19-01-2008, 18:06
my favorite fluff part about assassins is definitely that included in old assassin's codex, called "The Slaughter of Clan Mackenzie". Eversor assassin had to kill baron and all his relatives on their family meeting (317 people) and was forced to use various improvised weapons like: "silver soup spoon and butter knife". I would say that Eversor assassins aren't berserkers (if they were, they would not care about using improvised weapons), they specialize in terror tactics, so they kill in very brutal manner, severing limbs hissing like mad beast and when being shot, they explode. For sure they're no longer human in psychological way, I would say that they are more like Predator, lone hunters, obsessed with killing what they have chosen as prey.

Interesting thing is that Eversor temple is the only one that isn't undergoing any psychological/faith tests by Inquisition... :)

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-01-2008, 18:12
Interesting thing is that Eversor temple is the only one that isn't undergoing any psychological/faith tests by Inquisition... :)

Well, I think it's implied that there wouldn't be much of a point, given the Eversor's psychology.

Sekhmet
19-01-2008, 18:40
Yeah, I don't think Eversors are mindless killing machines. They must have a firm grasp of tactics, hand to hand combat, marksmanship (BS5 with a gigantic pistol), melee weapon usage, physiology, psychology, explosives, etc etc etc.

And I do think Mephiston is a step above the Custodes. I think he's the closest thing to the Emperor since the Primarchs.

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-01-2008, 18:45
And I do think Mephiston is a step above the Custodes. I think he's the closest thing to the Emperor since the Primarchs.

Is this the new BA Codex talking? :p

Just kidding, no offense intended. While I could be sympathetic to your point, perhaps you could elaborate? I haven't read good old Meph's fluff for a while.

Kandarin
20-01-2008, 04:02
Just kidding, no offense intended. While I could be sympathetic to your point, perhaps you could elaborate? I haven't read good old Meph's fluff for a while.

Mephiston is essentially a very powerful Illuminatus, without the damage of having ever been possessed by a daemon in the first place. On top of that, he's not only a Marine, but a Blood Angel, which would be the purest and most powerful of all the chapters if it wasn't for the Black Rage, something he no longer has to think about.

He's a physically superhuman, potentially immortal being with immense psychic power and near-total immunity to the ravages of Chaos. Thus, Mephiston is the closest thing to the Emperor since the Primarchs.

Nexus
20-01-2008, 06:35
It must be considered that, in the Callidus temple at least, an assassin is able to function as a human being after their time as an active agent is over. The grand master who provided the subplot for the background in the assassins codexes was a Callidus.

It wouldn't be too fanciful a leap to suggest that the same is true for the other temples, excepting the Culexus and Eversor.

Burnthem
20-01-2008, 09:19
What i mean is that if you took the SynSkin and Skull mask off an Eversor, then stuck him in a pair of jeans and a coat he wouldnt exactly stand out from the crowd. I just dont like the idea on an Eversor spending all his time twitching and dribbling like a lunatic. Sure, hes an unstoppable CC monster, but he's also an incredibly highly trained Assassin, with much more to him than a schizophrenic lunatic attitude :D

chrome_ghoul
20-01-2008, 09:19
It must be considered that, in the Callidus temple at least, an assassin is able to act like ahuman being after their time as an active agent is over.

Just changed that a little;)

The pyschology of an assasin would, IMHO, be far from a normal human. In the Inquisition war books by Ian Watson Meh'lindi is frankly wierd at the best of times. I think the Callidus temple would probably have the hardest time keeping a normal human mind of all the temples. That said, even Vindicare assasins are probably thoughroughly dehumanised.

LexxBomb
20-01-2008, 10:33
i wish there was more fluff on the veneum Temple. or at least rues for them. from memory aren't there ment to be 9 Assassin Temples (types)

Gorbad Ironclaw
20-01-2008, 10:59
Being able to pretend to be a human, and thinking like a human is two entirely different things. I've no doubt that most of the assassins can pass as your average human, I just don't think they are. I mean, physically they would likely still be classified as humans(even with argumentations), but mentally they would be very far from the 'norm'. It's the same with Space Marines really. They might look human, sort of, but if you dig into there minds, they are going to be very far from a normal human. In effect, mankind creat alien species to be the elite warriors of an Empire fighting for human domination of the Galaxy. Somewhat ironic really.

malika
20-01-2008, 11:06
Define "human thinking", I think thats a very cultural thing. Even on Earth you have cultures who think and do things which in our Western eyes are very strange and disturbing. Now imagine this idea pushed around for about 40000 years, spread over a million worlds. There could be cultures out there which in our eyes are completely alien but are still human.

BrainFireBob
20-01-2008, 11:18
Actually, the Eversors, once trained, are kept in stasis in their "happy pods" until deployed- meaning they serve until they die. The chemicals they ingest aren't at steady-state or any form of stasis: all Eversors are time-bombs. That's the difference with Marines, Marines are relatively self-sustaining. Sure, they need to practice complex meditation techniques on occasion to keep everything balanced, but if it was really that complicated, the CSM would all have dropped dead years ago. Eversors don't have that. Their happy pods are what balance their chemicals for them when not deployed.

If anything, Eversors are most like arco-flagellants, except better. Yes, explosive is part of "better." Sorry. They don't have time off nor do they have low-profile don't get caught eliminations. They might have "kill everybody who saw you and then leave" eliminations, but that's not technically being stealthy, no matter what I try to sell my gaming group on. "What? There were no witnesses!" "That's because you killed them all!" "Hey, no witnesses is no witnesses!"

Captain Stern
20-01-2008, 11:50
The antagonist in William King's third and final installment of the Ragnar Blackmane trilogy, "Wolfblade", was an assassin (it never mentioned what temple he belonged to, or even if he belonged to any). There was a conversation that went something like this:

"You know, navigator, there are beings in this universe that make even space marines look feeble."
"...beings like you?"
"Beings like me."



SPOILER

Ragnar did beat him, but only by the skin of his teeth. Of course, Ragnar, even in his youth (as he was in the book), is one of the deadliest space marines in 40k.

Corrupt
20-01-2008, 12:22
Limits of the D6 system I suppose.
Assasins are trained for decades to do one specific task, whether it be snipe people from 10 miles away while hanging upside down by your legs from an exposed spar on a ruined building, having spent so long immobile waiting for the shot, birds are nesting on you, or to stab someone in the lungs having literally cut a passage through everone in your way. They also probably have some biotech help in the matter too, taking them to the pinnacle of normal human abilities

As such they have to be much better than Lt Joe Bloggs of the imperial guard. As the INQ system shows they are much better than humans, but not quite at marine levels, but with only the D6 to go by, we dont get that in 40k.
And I assume uber assasins of DOOM are better represented being a match for marines and a glorified guardsman

Alessander
20-01-2008, 12:52
There has to be some links between the temples and the Emperor, since the Emperor designed/founded the Sisters of Silence, and the links between them and the Culexus is blatent....

Are the SoS even around anymore?

Brother Siccarius
20-01-2008, 16:53
So I gather that Assassins are much stronger/tougher then a normal human, but I doubt they are given a gene seed. So my question is, what makes them so tough? Is there any official fluff on the processes that make an assassin? I've heard of vat grown implanted muscle (I think from the Eisenhorn books) so maybe that is it. Although I'd love to get something from official fluff.

Simply put, they aren't, not in some senses anyways. The Assassins are built for one thing, killing, and killing as efficiently a manner as Marines couldn't hope to achieve with their "hammer blow" fighting style.

The stats of an assassin, and stat system in general, are misleading. It makes you think that the assassin may be stronger or more resilient than a space marine, they aren't. Because Str isn't necessarily how strong they are, T isn't necessarily how tough they are, and W doesn't mean they're that much bigger. They have higher WS and Str because they're trained and enhanced to be more able to kill someone. Which is all those two stats mean, that you're more able to land a blow and that you're more able to wound the enemy when you land it, respectively. Similarly, Toughness and Wounds don't mean that the Assassin is larger or particularly more hardy, just that the Assassin is difficult to wound in any meaningful way, and that they can keep on going after several damaging hits (through perseverance, meditation, ect.).


There has to be some links between the temples and the Emperor, since the Emperor designed/founded the Sisters of Silence, and the links between them and the Culexus is blatent....

Are the SoS even around anymore?

If they are then the Background about them is,well, silent, and rightly so.
The Imperium doesn't advertise it's open collection of psykers, and especially doesn't go throwing propaganda about the existence of anti-psykers. The knowledge of the Sisters of Silence most likely remained secret for a long time (and like most secrets in the Imperium was probably lost). They might be part of the secretive crew on the Black Ships, they might be the originators of the Daughters of the Emperor (who became the sisters of battle), they might be gone, but we don't know for certain.

chrome_ghoul
20-01-2008, 18:16
i wish there was more fluff on the veneum Temple. or at least rues for them. from memory aren't there ment to be 9 Assassin Temples (types)

Take a look on the tempus fugitives website. there latest campaign pack has rules and a little fluff for Venenum and Vanus temple assasins.

Lord Inquisitor
20-01-2008, 22:03
For this reason, I can't picture the Eversor Temple being nearly as nitpicky in who they select as the others. The main feature of their regimen is the augmentation, not the quality of the original initiate. On top of this, despite their resilience they must surely have the highest casualty rate of any Temple. So while the Vindicare, Callidus and minor temples need a specific combination of personal strengths, and the Culexus need something very specific indeed, serial killers and pit fighters the Imperium over have 'what it takes' to become an Eversor.
Still, they'll be pretty damn picky about who becomes an Eversor - they would require quite exceptional mental and physical characteristics even to accept the bioaugmentation process.


Back on topic, is it ever explained how the Culexus select applicants? The Pariah Gene is always described as fantastically rare, and the Temple only takes those who exhibit it most strongly, leaving 'run of the mill' Pariahs behind to serve as sidekicks in BL literature. On top of that, they're competing with the Necrons for the expressed Pariahs of the galaxy. It seems to me that applying the usual ruthless-as-hell initiate weeding process to this tiny pool of potential Assassins would whittle them down to zero. Are they more reasonable about the survivability of their training, or do they have some vast source of additional Pariahs that isn't covered in most fluff?
Pariahs/untouchables don't seem to be that rare. Eisenhorn was able to accumulate quite a few. Some selection seems to be possible, presumably for the strongest anti-psyker ability and the highest physical capability.


I'm not sure if this is how it works, but wouldn't the name pariah gene imply that it needs to be passed down from parent to child? Killing off everyone that has it would mean no more assassins ever again.
At the same time this seems to be a "gene" that is cropping up at random, possibly as some form of mutation. Aside from anything else, the pariah gene would have a serious negative selection pressure against it anyway, given that most people find pariahs abhorrent!


Yeah, I don't think Eversors are mindless killing machines. They must have a firm grasp of tactics, hand to hand combat, marksmanship (BS5 with a gigantic pistol), melee weapon usage, physiology, psychology, explosives, etc etc etc.
Right. They're highly intelligent killing machines. They've got extensive brain augmentation, able to make complex calculations in seconds and appraise highly complicated tatical situations. They're still psychopaths that will kill everyone in their path, mind.


As such they have to be much better than Lt Joe Bloggs of the imperial guard. As the INQ system shows they are much better than humans, but not quite at marine levels, but with only the D6 to go by, we dont get that in 40k.
True to some degree, but I would point out that an Eversor on the rampage can meet and exceed Marine levels quite dramatically!

Plus you need to consider the relative damage levels. A Marine with a chainsword (S4) does on average 30 points of damage in combat (enough to incapacitate most opponents with a single blow, against a human - T50 - in power armour enough to deal 4 health levels of damage). A callidus, while only S70 compared with a Marine's 250 also deals 4 health levels of damage against the hypothetical human in power armour...


There has to be some links between the temples and the Emperor, since the Emperor designed/founded the Sisters of Silence, and the links between them and the Culexus is blatent....

Are the SoS even around anymore?
I don't know if there's anything that said for sure, but I think there was something suggesting that the SoS might still operate the Black Ships of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.

Captain Stern
21-01-2008, 00:00
The Assassin temples were very much of the Emperor's design. Here's a fragment of the fantastic quote from the 3rd edition Assassins codex (its only redeeming quality):

The Emperor: ''"No world shall be beyond my reach. No enemy shall be beyond my wrath."' Thus spoke the allmighty Emperor on the summit of Mount Vengeance on Thor. Gathered around him were his... (I don't remember the rest)."

Lord Inquisitor
21-01-2008, 00:15
But it also says that the assassin temples were set up without his knowledge...

Captain Stern
21-01-2008, 00:31
Well thats from 2nd edtion. Maybe 2.5. The 'filler authors' Games Workshop have been hiring don't give a damn about what's come before

studderigdave
21-01-2008, 00:38
i always liked the fluff of the eversor assassin. between the INQ rules for him and the inq fluff on assassin in general he has always been my favorite. i think the word "him" is very loose though, as i see them more machine then men. i like the part in the inq reading that state that when deploying an eversor, they are hardwired into a personal drop pod like transport, and while they are being dropped they are fed all the relevant info about the mission, once the pod lands, all the implants, stimms and stuff instantly inject into the assassin, more or less "waking him up" and ready to kill.

LexxBomb
21-01-2008, 07:42
there were 12 first assassins frommemory and they worked for the betterment of man doing the Emperors dirty work with out him knowing. when he found out what they had done he basicly commissioned them to set up the temples and refine there methodology.

Ikkaan
21-01-2008, 08:38
Take a look on the tempus fugitives website. there latest campaign pack has rules and a little fluff for Venenum and Vanus temple assasins.

Uh...can i beg you for a link ?

Sekhmet
21-01-2008, 08:52
Right. They're highly intelligent killing machines. They've got extensive brain augmentation, able to make complex calculations in seconds and appraise highly complicated tatical situations. They're still psychopaths that will kill everyone in their path, mind.


No they won't. They consider each situation. If killing a certain person is part of the mission or required to fulfill the mission, they'll do it. If killing a person would hamper the mission, they won't. If their mission was to kill a governor and an angry and well-equipped gang ambushes the assassin, given the choice of fight or flee he may flee to preserve himself so he can later complete the mission. He won't blindly charge into massed heavy weapons.

Captain Stern
21-01-2008, 20:17
Do you know what's odd? When reading about assassins punching through steel and climbing sheer surfaces no one bats an eyelid. But when someone mentions a primarch having done something similar there are those who balk and roll their eyes. In addition to this being odd, I've always found this rather presumptuous considering the 40k setting is tens of thousands of years in the future.

naked_surfer
21-01-2008, 21:23
Uh...can i beg you for a link ?

http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/

Scroll down till you get to the 'Damocles Gulf Crusade' section and in the download section, click on 'Imperial players campaign pack'.

Imperialis_Dominatus
21-01-2008, 22:04
Do you know what's odd? When reading about assassins punching through steel and climbing sheer surfaces no one bats an eyelid. But when someone mentions a primarch having done something similar there are those who balk and roll their eyes. In addition to this being odd, I've always found this rather presumptuous considering the 40k setting is tens of thousands of years in the future.

And heaven forbid the Emperor be powerful too...

DantesInferno
21-01-2008, 22:16
No they won't. They consider each situation. If killing a certain person is part of the mission or required to fulfill the mission, they'll do it. If killing a person would hamper the mission, they won't. If their mission was to kill a governor and an angry and well-equipped gang ambushes the assassin, given the choice of fight or flee he may flee to preserve himself so he can later complete the mission. He won't blindly charge into massed heavy weapons.

I wouldn't quite use the word "consider". Think of them as highly programmed killing machines: their human free will has long since been eroded.

Kandarin
21-01-2008, 22:51
Do you know what's odd? When reading about assassins punching through steel and climbing sheer surfaces no one bats an eyelid. But when someone mentions a primarch having done something similar there are those who balk and roll their eyes. In addition to this being odd, I've always found this rather presumptuous considering the 40k setting is tens of thousands of years in the future.

Assassins may be used in 40k fans' personal fiction without causing much cringing by abusing an established character. Primarchs (and the Emperor) may not.

Dragonlv8
22-01-2008, 05:53
There ninjas, seriosly, play Winter assault or dark crusade for pc and instead of shooting, charge him into close combat, before he gets smashed into the ground because he has low health points he go's kung foo on his unfortunate opponents.
note to self vs easy bots and see how many men my assasin can kung foo...

logosloki
22-01-2008, 07:50
No they won't. They consider each situation. If killing a certain person is part of the mission or required to fulfill the mission, they'll do it. If killing a person would hamper the mission, they won't. If their mission was to kill a governor and an angry and well-equipped gang ambushes the assassin, given the choice of fight or flee he may flee to preserve himself so he can later complete the mission. He won't blindly charge into massed heavy weapons.

Well after reading IA3 (think its that one, the tau one) I don't really believe that. He did blindly charge into a tau stronghold and blow himself up with a melta-bomb. The eversor from that is the most complete amount of fluff I have seen on evrsor so I may be wrong.They are just psychos with guns and imprinted knowledge on how to kill. "he" did display enormous tactical decisions but mostly on the how to get a to z by smashing through the rest of the letters way. That and he ran for days on end to get there the first place.

Also:
there is a small snippet on a vindicare holding the position for his shot for 3 days, waiting to use that angle.

I haven't come across anything much about the callidus, except that the deceiver prefers them in terms of eating. But from mechanics and thought you can see that each callidus would have to be independently trained to take on a single mission

The culxesus (sp?) is just pure psychic death. again, I don't have much background on them.

Sekhmet
22-01-2008, 07:56
I wouldn't quite use the word "consider". Think of them as highly programmed killing machines: their human free will has long since been eroded.


Well after reading IA3 (think its that one, the tau one) I don't really believe that. He did blindly charge into a tau stronghold and blow himself up with a melta-bomb. The eversor from that is the most complete amount of fluff I have seen on evrsor so I may be wrong.They are just psychos with guns and imprinted knowledge on how to kill. "he" did display enormous tactical decisions but mostly on the how to get a to z by smashing through the rest of the letters way. That and he ran for days on end to get there the first place.


Again, I really don't think they are "just psychos with guns", there's a LOT more to them than that. They don't have a mental disease or anything, they just have a single-minded determination to complete their mission, as with space marines, sisters (faith as their goal) and other assassins. As far as I can tell, they're not blood thirsty like a servant of khorne, they just find that killing is often the most effective way to accomplish their mission. But they don't exclude all other options to accomplish their mission... if they did, they'd be HORRIBLE assassins. You'd be better off dropping in a genestealer and hoping it takes out what you want.

In fact, the mission is the only thing that any assassin thinks of, including an Eversor. Their training, tools and tactics are the only things that change. If a Vindicare ran out of ammo, don't you think he'd consider a knife in the back? If a Callidus found that the target used psykers to screen everyone (including each other), but if she found the target's daily routine and a sniper rifle, wouldn't she take a shot? If a Culexus found the detonator of a melta bomb and the linked melta bomb was right next to a farseer, wouldn't he push the button rather than try to fry his brain? So if an Eversor realized that avoiding a patrol would increase the chances of success in his/her mission, don't you think the Eversor would do it?

Brother-Captain De Angele
22-01-2008, 08:29
i dont why the assassins are so strong but i can give an example of an assassin's greatness, a callidus assassin kill konrad curze the night lord primarch! apart from the fact that konrad wanted to die a asssassin can kill a primarch! a primarch! that is true greatness

logosloki
22-01-2008, 09:02
Again, I really don't think they are "just psychos with guns", there's a LOT more to them than that. They don't have a mental disease or anything, they just have a single-minded determination to complete their mission, as with space marines, sisters (faith as their goal) and other assassins. As far as I can tell, they're not blood thirsty like a servant of khorne, they just find that killing is often the most effective way to accomplish their mission. But they don't exclude all other options to accomplish their mission... if they did, they'd be HORRIBLE assassins. You'd be better off dropping in a genestealer and hoping it takes out what you want.

In fact, the mission is the only thing that any assassin thinks of, including an Eversor. Their training, tools and tactics are the only things that change. If a Vindicare ran out of ammo, don't you think he'd consider a knife in the back? If a Callidus found that the target used psykers to screen everyone (including each other), but if she found the target's daily routine and a sniper rifle, wouldn't she take a shot? If a Culexus found the detonator of a melta bomb and the linked melta bomb was right next to a farseer, wouldn't he push the button rather than try to fry his brain? So if an Eversor realized that avoiding a patrol would increase the chances of success in his/her mission, don't you think the Eversor would do it?


Not entirely. assassins are one shot weapons, just that they are trained to be in for the long haul to get off the one kill. the vindicare assassin in the same snippet disappeared after making his shot. another one held down some eldar aspects for days, just sniping off the exarchs, never was found despite active searching. Once they have accomplished their mission they leg it. there are maybe 1000 assassins in total because of training and equipment and sanctions, etc.

The callidus is personal with its kill, its more to do with the method of infiltration being the fact they become like an XO or wife, etc.

Eversor missions are listed only in hours of actual time, mostly because of the rapid insert nature. there were patrols in the eversors run in IA3, he actually just killed them to quickly for anyone to be alerted. it was the absence that alerted people that something was wrong but in the end it was too late. This method is more to do with the fact that an eversor will eventually die from being saturated by drugs, stims, etc. They don't need top-ups, the effects are continuous

The Culexus would probabley go after the farseer by sheer training. assassins aren't human in the normal way, they're more or less tools, like servitors and arcoflagallents and penitent engines. Except they're scapels not bludgeons

Biomass Denial
22-01-2008, 09:02
I see the eversors as extremly faithful to the point that on any planet they are on the local peoples and/or bad guys between them and the target dont live up to their standards and are therefore heritics. Because of this they deserve to die and an eversor will quite happily oblidge them unless it is absoloutley sure it will compromise its mission. This would also explain why they are the only temple that isnt tested by the inquisition. Its space marine indoctrination on a greater magnitude with combat drugs thrown in for fun.

CELS
22-01-2008, 10:29
Do you know what's odd? When reading about assassins punching through steel and climbing sheer surfaces no one bats an eyelid. But when someone mentions a primarch having done something similar there are those who balk and roll their eyes. In addition to this being odd, I've always found this rather presumptuous considering the 40k setting is tens of thousands of years in the future.
Actually, I find that most people don't have a problem with Primarchs being strong enough to punch through steel or climbing sheer surfaces (even though the latter hasn't come up in previous discussions). Where people tend to balk and roll their eyes is when Primarchs start swimming through rivers of molten lava and pull similar miracles. GW tends to suspend belief in order to create challenging situations for the heroes of a given tale, but they do it so recklessly that it messes up the whole scale. By reading the 40k background, one might imagine a situation where the Emperor and a Primarch are trapped on a cliff above a river of molten lava, surrounded by orks, and the Emperor would go "Quick! Jump into the molten lava before they strangle us to death!" :)

Oh, and as for Eversor assassins judging other people to be heretics, I would say that's about as likely as a Carnifex judging humans to be too concerned with their appearances. It just doesn't really enter into their mental equation, I think. All that matters to an Eversor is their objective and the creatures that are in the way of accomplishing it. In my opinion...

Biomass Denial
22-01-2008, 10:41
Well if everyone is a heritic even your masters it still works the same in the end ha ha

Cirrus the Blue
22-01-2008, 11:26
Try and find a copy of Codex Assassins. It's got a TON of fluff on the background of each one and is a really neat read, also has some entertaining scenario ideas.

My favorite's always been the Vindicare though 'cause you have to admit that anyone who can maintain the exact same position of motionless readiness for over a month is ****** hardcore.

Close second is the Eversor and everything about him, too. Not to mention the fact he never actually experiences a state of rest, but they just freeze him after each battle they require him in, thawing him out when they use him again. :p Assassins are just awesome for their background! :D Too bad they've been toned down sooooo much compared to what they used to be though.. :(

- Cirrus

DantesInferno
22-01-2008, 11:33
In fact, the mission is the only thing that any assassin thinks of, including an Eversor. Their training, tools and tactics are the only things that change. If a Vindicare ran out of ammo, don't you think he'd consider a knife in the back? If a Callidus found that the target used psykers to screen everyone (including each other), but if she found the target's daily routine and a sniper rifle, wouldn't she take a shot? If a Culexus found the detonator of a melta bomb and the linked melta bomb was right next to a farseer, wouldn't he push the button rather than try to fry his brain? So if an Eversor realized that avoiding a patrol would increase the chances of success in his/her mission, don't you think the Eversor would do it?

Yes, of course. My point was rather that the "choices" the Assassins make are not some sort of conscious deliberative process that they go through. Instead, they're the product of such an elaborate and repeated training process so that the actual mission is done on a purely subconscious level. And the programming procedure (training, hypnosis, etc) is presumably sophisticated enough to incorporate things like evading patrols, making use of unorthodox weaponry, and so on.

It's a bit like tying my shoelaces. I don't need to actually think about what I'm doing, after so many years doing it it just happens automatically. The Assassins are programmed to be killing machines, and the more programming the Imperium can do, the better. The last thing they want is Assassins thinking independently while they're on a mission. They might come up with a better target than the one they've been assigned!

Captain Stern
22-01-2008, 15:03
Assassins may be used in 40k fans' personal fiction without causing much cringing by abusing an established character. Primarchs (and the Emperor) may not.


I'm not sure I understand you. One of the most well established parts of 40k fiction is that The Emperor and the primarchs were super powerful.

Felwether
22-01-2008, 15:21
i dont why the assassins are so strong but i can give an example of an assassin's greatness, a callidus assassin kill konrad curze the night lord primarch! apart from the fact that konrad wanted to die a asssassin can kill a primarch! a primarch! that is true greatness

Please read Lord of the Night!

The Night Haunter let the assassin kill him and had in fact survived many assassination attempts.

Sekhmet
22-01-2008, 18:09
Yes, of course. My point was rather that the "choices" the Assassins make are not some sort of conscious deliberative process that they go through. Instead, they're the product of such an elaborate and repeated training process so that the actual mission is done on a purely subconscious level. And the programming procedure (training, hypnosis, etc) is presumably sophisticated enough to incorporate things like evading patrols, making use of unorthodox weaponry, and so on.

It's a bit like tying my shoelaces. I don't need to actually think about what I'm doing, after so many years doing it it just happens automatically. The Assassins are programmed to be killing machines, and the more programming the Imperium can do, the better. The last thing they want is Assassins thinking independently while they're on a mission. They might come up with a better target than the one they've been assigned!

Oh, so you're saying it's instinct instead of thought. That's not that unusual, you try to train even modern soldiers to do the same thing. The more you think about something, the slower you react. I do that while playing paintball and driving on the track too.

But yes, I agree with you. I disagree with logosloki. They're not mindless killing machines, they're just so experienced and well-trained that they react immediately to whatever situation comes up. But they're still human. They can and do think cognitively. An example is the confusion that sets in when the Callidus' phase blade is absorbed by the Deceiver, or when Meh'Lindi (or whatever) has no idea how to resist the slaaneshi-style torture (pleasure instead of pain or something) in one of the draco books.

You don't need to eliminate a person's brain and free-will to make them place the mission first. I don't know why you'd believe that.

Burnthem
22-01-2008, 19:21
Again, I really don't think they are "just psychos with guns", there's a LOT more to them than that....

...In fact, the mission is the only thing that any assassin thinks of, including an Eversor. Their training, tools and tactics are the only things that change. If a Vindicare ran out of ammo, don't you think he'd consider a knife in the back? If a Callidus found that the target used psykers to screen everyone (including each other), but if she found the target's daily routine and a sniper rifle, wouldn't she take a shot? If a Culexus found the detonator of a melta bomb and the linked melta bomb was right next to a farseer, wouldn't he push the button rather than try to fry his brain? So if an Eversor realized that avoiding a patrol would increase the chances of success in his/her mission, don't you think the Eversor would do it?

This is exactly how i think of them too, if an Eversor was truly such a dribbling psychopath he wouldn't be very effective at all at his job, charging straight into a hail of bullets will kill anyone. For example, taking the story in the Assassins codex about an Eversor killing all 300-odd members of Clan MacKenzie (sp?), i doubt it was one whole loony killing spree. I expect that there were multiple occasions where hiding in a cupboard and jumping out on a couple of guards would have been preferable to charging them straight on. What im trying to say is that Assassins retain enough common sense and judgement to take the most sensible route/action available, not just sprinting along like a lunatic. Assassins are not mindless automatons, they need an incredible amount of initiative, common sense and intelligence to complete thier missions, and the whole 'brain wiped lunatic' thing just doesnt fit IMO.

And although Assassins may well be prepared to die during a mission, im pretty sure that they would take every possible option to ensure that they survived and got away. A dead Assassin, who represent years of training and lots of time and effort, is of no use to anybody.

A quick question - has anybody got a confirmed source for the whole 'Eversors being frozen between missions' fluff, im sitting here with a copy of Codex Assassins and i cant find it anywhere.

Sekhmet
22-01-2008, 19:38
A quick question - has anybody got a confirmed source for the whole 'Eversors being frozen between missions' fluff, im sitting here with a copy of Codex Assassins and i cant find it anywhere.

I believe it's in the back of the 2nd edition assassin codex, where it has two imperial officials talking to eachother and tapping the glass of the stasis pod containing an eversor.

I'm not sure if it's in the 3rd edition codex.

DantesInferno
22-01-2008, 20:58
You don't need to eliminate a person's brain and free-will to make them place the mission first. I don't know why you'd believe that.

Of course you don't need to eliminate a person's brain and free-will to make them place the mission first, but I would imagine that it certainly helps if you do. From the Imperium's point of view, the more they can mentally program their Temple Assassins the better.

Imperialis_Dominatus
22-01-2008, 22:31
i dont why the assassins are so strong but i can give an example of an assassin's greatness, a callidus assassin kill konrad curze the night lord primarch! apart from the fact that konrad wanted to die a asssassin can kill a primarch! a primarch! that is true greatness

Yeah, if I just laid myself down and let a Callidus kill me I'd probably die too. So would... pretty much anything.

Primarchs aren't invincible (poor Sang...), they just require a bit more dedication and/or brute force to kill.

Sekhmet
22-01-2008, 22:36
Yeah, if I just laid myself down and let a Callidus kill me I'd probably die too. So would... pretty much anything.


A Callidus would have a tough time killing the Deceiver, even if it laid down and did nothing for a couple hours.

Imperialis_Dominatus
22-01-2008, 22:39
A Callidus would have a tough time killing the Deceiver, even if it laid down and did nothing for a couple hours.

Damn C'tan, ruining my points. :cries:

logosloki
23-01-2008, 00:00
considering one of the weapons of choice by the callidus is actually absorbed into a C'tan, I'd say yeah.

Imperialis_Dominatus
23-01-2008, 00:13
A Callidus would have a tough time killing the Deceiver, even if it laid down and did nothing for a couple hours.


considering one of the weapons of choice by the callidus is actually absorbed into a C'tan, I'd say yeah.

Alright, I get it. I should have put a disclaimer in my post saying 'except C'tan who are immune as usual.' I fail@life, must become an hero, etc. :rolleyes:

Especially since I said... 'pretty much anything.' :p

logosloki
23-01-2008, 08:23
Alright, I get it. I should have put a disclaimer in my post saying 'except C'tan who are immune as usual.' I fail@life, must become an hero, etc. :rolleyes:

Especially since I said... 'pretty much anything.' :p

woah, stay aways from the /b/, it'll rot your sould faster than warseer general discussion:p

I dug up that IA3 part about the assassin. There was a diversonary so the bulk of the forces wre deployed against 3 squads of storm troopers.

Also while the eversor is described as psychopathic I give you the fact that it knew what to use on what people, discarded weapons that were expended, and used very advanced tactics. It was hypno-briefed on its targets, weapons were optimised against tau phisiology. I use psychopath because it is the closest word I know to describe the eversor. But its in the Jigsaw, hannibal, terminator way.

Sekhmet
23-01-2008, 15:44
woah, stay aways from the /b/, it'll rot your sould faster than warseer general discussion:p


Don't talk about /b/. :p

Ashnari Doomsong
23-01-2008, 19:13
The fact that Vindicares are so vastly superior to Eldar Pathfinders leaves me a bit miffed, as always. I mean, the Pathfinders have centuries of experience, training and most of all all-consuming focus on what they do. It's what they do. It's all they do.

Vindicares have a rough century of training, a bit of experience, some pretty rigorous personal discipline. However, they also have basic human needs, such as occasional relaxation and recreation and maybe even daydreaming, as well as the generally poor memory of centuries-old humans.

Bah, I say! Bah!

CELS
23-01-2008, 20:06
Well, some Pathfinders could definitely be better marksmans than Vindicares. But there is no rigorous selection process to become a Pathfinder, as far as I am aware. Each Vindicares is the best of a thousand, perhaps ten thousand applicants, or even more. An average Eldar sniper might be far better than an average human sniper, but Vindicare assassins aren't average by a long shot :)

jimbobodoll
23-01-2008, 20:32
Well, some Pathfinders could definitely be better marksmans than Vindicares. But there is no rigorous selection process to become a Pathfinder, as far as I am aware. Each Vindicares is the best of a thousand, perhaps ten thousand applicants, or even more. An average Eldar sniper might be far better than an average human sniper, but Vindicare assassins aren't average by a long shot :)

QFT. :D

In terms of the sniper models available on the table top, how do they compare in sniping ability?
1) Vindicare
2) Upgraded Eldar Pathfinders
3) Standard Eldar Scouts/Pathfinders
4) Space Marine Scouts
5) Ratling Snipers (??)
6) Yer bog standard guardsman with a long-las sniper rifle (swap with ratling?)

These ranks just illustrate how far removed some snipers are from each other. Although by no means anything other than a loose ranking system based on my own beliefs, the Vindicare is quite a bit up from an Eldar Sniper who is in turn quite a bit up from yer bog standard guardsmam with long-las... ;)

LexxBomb
23-01-2008, 22:13
and in that rating where would you put good old Stumper Musket.

kikkoman
24-01-2008, 00:29
The fact that Vindicares are so vastly superior to Eldar Pathfinders leaves me a bit miffed, as always. I mean, the Pathfinders have centuries of experience, training and most of all all-consuming focus on what they do. It's what they do. It's all they do.

Vindicares have a rough century of training, a bit of experience, some pretty rigorous personal discipline. However, they also have basic human needs, such as occasional relaxation and recreation and maybe even daydreaming, as well as the generally poor memory of centuries-old humans.

Bah, I say! Bah!

If I had my way, 4ed/5ed Eldar would play as a hero hammer army, a few w2/w3 models with maybe retinues w1 bullet catchers, heheh.

basically how IG has Heroes of the Imperium (lots of multi wound personalities), except with Eldar troops instead of guardsmen.


In =I=, I believe a Pathfinder might actually have a higher BS than an Imperial Assassin

but in 2ed, an Assassin was ws8 bs8, equal to Phoenix Lords :0

Spacewolves vs Thousandsons
13-03-2008, 17:18
The antagonist in William King's third and final installment of the Ragnar Blackmane trilogy, "Wolfblade", was an assassin (it never mentioned what temple he belonged to, or even if he belonged to any). There was a conversation that went something like this:

"You know, navigator, there are beings in this universe that make even space marines look feeble."
"...beings like you?"
"Beings like me."



if i remember correctly that assassin used poisons as his weapon of choice, unfortunately i cant identify his temple from that info other than hes not a Vindicare or an Eversor assassin

Lord Inquisitor
13-03-2008, 18:46
The fact that Vindicares are so vastly superior to Eldar Pathfinders leaves me a bit miffed, as always. I mean, the Pathfinders have centuries of experience, training and most of all all-consuming focus on what they do. It's what they do. It's all they do.
Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but I was under the impression that rangers followed the path of the outcast, not the sniper. As a consequence their minds are almost dangerously unfocussed. Pathfinders are a step above, of course.

Even so, if you were to find a human which could approach the Eldar focus-of-mind, it might be the Vindicare. Spending days utterly unmoving all thoughts in meditation fixed on nothing but the shot...


In =I=, I believe a Pathfinder might actually have a higher BS than an Imperial Assassin
Correct, BS110 versus BS95!

That said, the Vindicare has some rather nice skills ("Sniper Supreme"!) that would close the distance.


if i remember correctly that assassin used poisons as his weapon of choice, unfortunately i cant identify his temple from that info other than hes not a Vindicare or an Eversor assassin
It's been a while since I read that book. Was he definately an Officio assassin? If he was, the Venenum temple would be the prime candidate...

Vesica
14-03-2008, 13:43
didnt a group of assasins get owned by abbadons chosen or something like that?

As for assasins, they are no where near as good as a SM for the reason as stated they can only do one thing where as SM can kill you in more ways than you can imagine =p.

p.s i once saw something along these lines 'Only insect specialise in one area, humans can do anything'

winkypinky
14-03-2008, 14:23
How well do you think a Callidus would do against Harlequins?

Put on a mask?
Allready tight black spandex, easiest infiltrate ever.

badnewsblair
14-03-2008, 15:37
I'm pretty sure its been said before, but I think that Assassins are drugged up and implanted beyond belief. The training is intense on a scale we don't even understand. And as stated before as well, Assassins are specifically trained in one area vs. a broad training. They aren't just well trained normal dudes.

Arhuta
14-03-2008, 15:43
QFT. :D

1) Vindicare/LARKIN
2) Upgraded Eldar Pathfinders
3) Standard Eldar Scouts/Pathfinders
4) Space Marine Scouts
5) Ratling Snipers (??)
6) Yer bog standard guardsman with a long-las sniper rifle (swap with ratling?)
;)

Larkin may has pretty much identical shooting rules to a vindicare except worse equipment dosn't he?

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-03-2008, 02:58
didnt a group of assasins get owned by abbadons chosen or something like that?

Yeah, but no one was expecting anything different. Their mission brief guy knew he'd never see them alive again.


As for assasins, they are no where near as good as a SM for the reason as stated they can only do one thing where as SM can kill you in more ways than you can imagine =p.

Are you talking about Officio Assassinorum assassins? Because a simple look at the profile of an Assassin will tell you that a Vindicare knows how to do more than just shoot.


p.s i once saw something along these lines 'Only insect specialise in one area, humans can do anything'

True, but the needs of the Imperium are many and multifaceted. Some must be 'insects,' specializing in one category in whatever discipline they are in for the greater good of Mankind. Others need to play an all-purpose role.

Oathwarden
15-03-2008, 07:18
I see the eversor as a lot like the 'juicer' class in rifts. Drugged up to high heaven+other fun implants=something you don't want to see charging down on you. But this takes a toll on the body, it can only handle so much strain, so the Imperium got smart and freezes them inbetween missions to cut down the strain. Seeing some of the drugs in the =][= handdbook, having even one of them in your system is rough, but the eversors probably doped on most if not all of those, plus a few we haven't heard about. But if all the effects of those stack, but still let the assassin's analytical mind tick, you've got one hell of a fight on your hands.

Burnthem
15-03-2008, 09:08
But if all the effects of those stack, but still let the assassin's analytical mind tick, you've got one hell of a fight on your hands.

This is how i like to imagine an Eversor, super psycho killing machine yes, but also with enough tactical guile and presence of mind to avoid just rushing into hordes of enemy if there is a better/easier way to achieve its mission.

Long_Fang
15-03-2008, 09:28
Yea ive heard these claims before and this is fluff based, however i am suspicious as how a normal standard human with superior training and genetic augmentations is better than a super human with advanced training with the direct blood of the so called "all mighty god of all mankind" himself, so im guessing maybe the emeperor isnt so superior if a basic human with no gene-seed and lost of enhancements and training is superior than that of almost the same training and a gene-seed.

Not trying to flame but, simply put GW has alot of fluff loop holes!

Although there are loop holes in GW fluff, this may not be one. Assassins are by no means better than all SM, just the average trooper. Take any SM hero and he will whip an assassin.

Sekhmet
16-03-2008, 19:06
Although there are loop holes in GW fluff, this may not be one. Assassins are by no means better than all SM, just the average trooper. Take any SM hero and he will whip an assassin.

Depends on what Assassin.

A venenum assassin will be hard pressed to find a poison that'll work on a Marine, and their training is basically infiltration and poison, not combat. Although they'd still kill any human with ease.

The one with explosives might win simply because what do you do against a melta bomb angled directly at you?

A Callidus would find it hard to use polymorphine when there are lots of Marines around and I doubt they could bulk up that much, then simulate a black carapace to make the Marine power armor work. But, there are a lot of chapter serfs to imitate. A carefully placed blow with a phase sword would end anyone in fluff... except the C'tan and certain huge creatures.

An Eversor would probably match most SM characters in a one on one fight. Mephiston, Abaddon and maybe Dante would win.

Vindicare... with a properly chosen round at a distance where not even the Eldar can detect him, would snipe a character's head off. Remember - unlike the table top rules, SM characters in general are not any more resilient to damage than a standard Marine in the same type of armor. Abaddon of course has Chaos Gods backing him as does Cypher. Mephiston laughs at pain like it was nothing, but a turbo penetrator to the forehead would end him.

Francis29
16-03-2008, 19:53
all this just highlights the need for GW to make a better scale for stat lines (if the games reflected the fluff that is), it should be on 1-100 or something like Inquisitor (not that i know the rules for Inquisitor).

Capt. Jack
16-03-2008, 23:48
Their Kung Fu is strong.