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View Full Version : Apacolypse, taking the place of smaller games?



des04
18-01-2008, 23:26
Apparently the new style of play is apacolypse, were the players amass whole armies and confront each other using a totally different set of rules. My question to all of you who use WH 40K is: Does the apacolypse system completely undermime the "standard game"? Will everone just decide to play apacolypse because you can through different races together. Under apacolypse, special characters from different space marine chapters, or from the dark eldar armies.
My fear is that the entire system will be abbused by rampant players, and the game itself will start to suffer. Please respond to this and give me your opinions.

catbarf
18-01-2008, 23:31
I like small games. In fact, with friends I like to waive the army selection rules (so we just pick models we like) up to 200pts or so, and treat every model as an independent character.

Apoc is for friendly games, as is our ruleset. It's just something new and different.

des04
18-01-2008, 23:40
Still being able to mix armies together for power players, it doesn't seem like a fair way to play. It also seems like those with more money to spend would have an advantage being able to field more than others can afford.

P,S, what did your mom think the baking soda was?

Ozendorph
18-01-2008, 23:56
Still being able to mix armies together for power players, it doesn't seem like a fair way to play. It also seems like those with more money to spend would have an advantage being able to field more than others can afford.


1. How can mixing armies be unfair when everyone can do it?

2. Point values are still used in standard Apocalypse missions. You cannot simply out-purchase an opponent if you agree to use equal (or at least close) point values.

3. Apoc isn't really for power gaming. I don't think it'll ever replace standard 40k for tournament environments and quick pickup games. It's more of a "lets hang out in my garage, drink beer, and roll dice for the next 6 hours" sort of affair. At least that's my experience.

des04
19-01-2008, 00:04
Again, it's seems apacolypse favors those with more money, because they can afford to have several armies.

starlight
19-01-2008, 00:27
People with more money *always* have an advantage. Just like people with more time do for scratchbuilds and conversions, or people with painting skill for nice looking armies...

I believe that with 5th Ed, I see myself wanting to play games that will use CoD and Apoc rules most of the time. :)

Horus38
19-01-2008, 00:31
Again, it's seems apacolypse favors those with more money, because they can afford to have several armies.

I don't know what you're complaining about. The main point of the apocalypse SUPPLEMENT is to have fun. You keep bringing up power gaming and how it favors certain people over others. If you're playing this game it should be with friends who can work out all the differences and have FUN!

catbarf
19-01-2008, 00:44
Still being able to mix armies together for power players, it doesn't seem like a fair way to play. It also seems like those with more money to spend would have an advantage being able to field more than others can afford.

I think if you're after an overly balanced game you kinda miss the point of Apoc...


P,S, what did your mom think the baking soda was?

It's fictional. Just thought it was funny. The quote is from Hicks.

studderigdave
19-01-2008, 01:25
as much as i love digging out my titans and super heavies, i can only stomach a true apoc game (true as in more then 20,000 points a side) maybe once every 2-3 months, any other time i like a good 2 v 2 or 3 v 3 game. the occasional friday night thrashing by boss salvage is always a good time as well.

Shield of Freedom
19-01-2008, 01:36
Again, it's seems apacolypse favors those with more money, because they can afford to have several armies.

????? What do you mean favor?

If he has 5 armies worth 15,000 points... then the the other players are supposed to come together and get as close to 15,000 as possible. It's not designed that way. Pick up the book and read it. You'll start to understand.

Apocalypse is not for competative gaming.

galahad67
19-01-2008, 03:16
here's how it works in my experience:

I have about 30K of 40K minis distributed among 5 armies.

The 3 younger players at my church have about 15K - 20K between them.

We spit into 2 groups of 2 or three players (we invite more players to come aeither use one of my extra armies or bring their own) withabout 5k to 7.5K per army.

I only get to feild about 7.5K

Which is a lot of minis but not all of them.

We encourage homemade things like titans and linear defence stations and planetary defence stations. That give the players access to D strength weapons without having to fork out lots of money. (and the big things are tough! and fun. especially fun to watch a titan die to the players own vortex grenade - heh heh heh...)

Its all about the fun. tournament style games are about fun and winning. APOC isn't about the winning - it's more about the memorable moment.

AngryAngel
19-01-2008, 03:59
I dont think apoc can really out do regular 40k games. Regular 40k actually has a passing attempt to try and keep things fully equal, and isn't completely exploitable.

Apoc is free form, and easily exploitable because your supposed to govern yourselves in it. Which only works if you have some very good, and fun friends and players around.

Regular 40k is more balanced, quicker and generally just much easier to manage regularly. So no, apoc won't replace it at all.

indylead
19-01-2008, 11:10
I usually play at the local GW store. They are currently running Wednesday night as WH40K, with small pick up games as they have done for several months. Friday night at the moment is Apocalypse pick up (bring 1,500 to 2,000 and join in), taking the place of the beginners night during January.

While there are people veterans shunning Fridays (there are only three of us regularly joining in), this is giving the newer players with only a few hundred points a chance to (a) play at all and (b) be encouraged/inspired to continue in the hobby. Several young'uns have been worried about the cost of superheavies and "Apoc models" (i.e. the Forge World ones they have seen in the books), hence my scratch built thunderbolt is getting a lot of interest (total cost, 5) and showing them that you don't need huge amounts of money (some, yes. Lots, maybe) to enjoy a game.

Also, I take along around 5,000 points of kit, and then let the younger players use elements to make up their own force (a couple of Leman Russ here, a Line Breaker squadron there). I encourage them to go and look up the special formation rules (again, most don't have the Apoc book). The staff and the veterans run the game, making it clear where the rules are slightly different (it's hardly a "totally different set of rules" folks). Sure, it's hard work but is still great fun. Most of the younger players keep coming back,so they must be enjoying themselves. Who wouldn't want to see massed armies facing off?

If someone starts powergaming, the other vets and I have more than enough variation in our collections to counter pretty much anything. The vets won't powergame, as we want a fun game.

It's giving a lot of people ideas for additions to their own smaller force for normal games.

I wouldn't say the game favours me because I have a larger army (built over 15 years). Sure, I have more to draw from, but likely as not the stuff I 'donate' is being used against me. I'd be quite happy to field 10,000 points of Dark Angels against 5 opponents each with 2,000 points - it'll be hard work, though - but why is anyone going to have less fun for that?

No-one has shown up with elements from different armies, just to play the system. No-one complains that the approximation of Good Guys vs. Bad Guys isn't fluffy. We just want to have fun, with lots of models on the tables, lots going on and total confusion and chaos everywhere.

I still play 1,000-1,5000 point games on Wednesday, and enjoy those too.

It's not taking the place of the smaller games at all. As someone pointed out, Apocalypse is a supplement. Use it, don't use it. Your call.

Thylacine
19-01-2008, 13:09
No. Apocalypse is good system, however it is for organised big games, not your general store game, battle bunker game or tournament.

The only problem I have seen is when (and it is mostly the younger players who do it) vehicles, formations, templates and rules from Apocalypse start to make inroads on the normal game. I have already seen the Land Raider Terminus being used in store games and the Whirlwind, Land Speeder combo.

The cause of this can be put back onto the redshirts as they try to organise large games to sell Apocalypse, the games have no real structure, a lot of the rules are left out and in the end these games turn into small sub-games of one-on-one that are not much fun to play.

The standard game is always there, no one is forcing anyone to play Apocalypse, after all the hype is over you will find that most of the games being played will be under 2000 points. There is no real need to drag the Apocalypse book out until 3000+ points are used as most super-heavy vehicles can't be used in standard games under 2000 points and in games up to 3000 points they severely cut into the amount of points you have to spend on your army.

Ddraiglais
19-01-2008, 18:56
I will only play against allied armies that are fluffy. I don't think Apocalypse was intended for powergamers to put together the best list possible. If someone wants to use another codex with "counts as"; or if the allies fit the background, I have no problem. That being said, Apocalypse allows me to field my IW as they were meant to be (lots of artillery, traitor guard, and Legio Mortis units). I will only play Apocalypse these days. I have no interest in playing regular games.

I want to kind of clear up what I am saying about allies (because I know people will have a problem with what I said). Most alliances can be justified. Some of them I have a real hard time with though. I don't see Chaos/Necron or Necron/Nid alliances as two examples. However, if someone wanted to use Necrons to count as mutants/robots/daemons/other fluffy units, I'd have no problem with it. If someone did giant undead robot things counting as warriors and fexes, I'd applaud. I really think that's how Apocalypse is suppose to be. I think alliances should be taken a step further than traitor guardsmen fighting for their CSM masters or as just an excuse to include every SM character out there. I think there are modelling opportunities out there. I just wish I had the skills.

des04
19-01-2008, 19:35
Okay i'm now convinced otherwise about appocalypse, THANKS ALL OF YOU! who tried to prove me wrong. I guess it doesn't seem so bad now.