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Ninjaguiden
19-01-2008, 09:19
It seems to be well accepted fluff that the C'tan are quite vulnerable to warp-based attacks.

Now, the daemons who we see amred with real world weapons (axes, hellblades etc.) are not made up of metal or anything mundane at all. They are infact made up by warp energy, which is anathema to the C'tan.

So, what would happen if, for example, Anngrath would swipe a C'tan in two with his axe? Would the C'tan be hurt at all by being cleaved by pure warp energy?

Sekhmet
19-01-2008, 09:53
It seems to be well accepted fluff that the C'tan are quite vulnerable to warp-based attacks.

No more vulnerable than, say, a human. It's not like a doom bolt is gonna kill one, you'll need warp-based attacks on the magnitude of planet-destroying power to kill a C'tan. :rolleyes:



Now, the daemons who we see amred with real world weapons (axes, hellblades etc.) are not made up of metal or anything mundane at all. They are infact made up by warp energy, which is anathema to the C'tan.

So, what would happen if, for example, Anngrath would swipe a C'tan in two with his axe? Would the C'tan be hurt at all by being cleaved by pure warp energy?

Well first of all, Daemons are no longer pure warp energy when they move into reality.

Second of all, Khaine, the ELDAR GOD OF WAR, could not hurt the Nightbringer unless he timed his attacks perfectly (to strike at the moment the Nightbringer became corporeal to attack) AND used a weapon created by the ELDAR FORGE GOD. Khaine is arguably the most skilled warrior to ever exist and was wielding what is quite possibly the most powerful close combat weapon ever created... yet he barely beat the Nightbringer. But he didn't even kill the Nightbringer, he just broke its necrodermis... and was horribly scarred in the process and banished back into the Warp himself in the resulting explosion (iirc).

In fluff, the Nightbringer wouldn't even be touched by Anngrath, while Anngrath would be systematically torn to shreds. The fight would last as long as the Nightbringer found it interesting. As soon as it lost its appeal, Anngrath would be sent back to the warp.

In the game, Anngrath, being 888 pts or so, would probably beat the Nightbringer who is less than half the pt cost.



Oh, and in before "anathema isn't an adjective."

FarseerMatt
19-01-2008, 10:22
Khaine was not banished back to the warp, but the rest is correct

(http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/)

DantesInferno
19-01-2008, 11:13
No more vulnerable than, say, a human. It's not like a doom bolt is gonna kill one, you'll need warp-based attacks on the magnitude of planet-destroying power to kill a C'tan. :rolleyes:

I think the point was more that C'tan are more vulnerable to, say, a blast of Warp energy rather than an equivalently powerful blast of physical energy.


Second of all, Khaine, the ELDAR GOD OF WAR, could not hurt the Nightbringer unless he timed his attacks perfectly (to strike at the moment the Nightbringer became corporeal to attack) AND used a weapon created by the ELDAR FORGE GOD. Khaine is arguably the most skilled warrior to ever exist and was wielding what is quite possibly the most powerful close combat weapon ever created... yet he barely beat the Nightbringer. But he didn't even kill the Nightbringer, he just broke its necrodermis... and was horribly scarred in the process and banished back into the Warp himself in the resulting explosion (iirc).

A few things to be cleared up here:
Firstly, we can't say for sure what Khaine was at this point in the War in Heaven. It's possible he was a fully fledged Warp God with the ability to incarnate in the physical realm, but that's certainly not the only plausible theory. One popular alternative position, for instance, is that the Eldar Gods were in fact originally Old Ones, who only later ascended to the status of Warp Gods. This theory is said to draw support from Xenology. If this is the case, there's nothing particularly problematic about Khaine fighting the Nightbringer: it was just a (physical) Old One fighting a physical Nightbringer. The encounter doesn't tell us anything about how a pure creature of the Warp would fare against the C'tan.

Secondly, we equally don't know anything for sure about Khaine's weapon. Was it purely physical or a warp-based one? Who can say for certain...

Thirdly, the Nightbringer fought Khaine at or near the pinnacle of the Nightbringer's powers. The Nightbringer is vastly weaker in M41 because it has spent 60 million years starving, feeding only on meager morsels after its harvester ship was banished into the Warp as the Nightbringer was going into hibernation at the end of the War in Heaven.

Finally, it's important to remember that the whole Khaine/Nightbringer encounter is reported to us through the Imperium's "approximate translation of a fragment from the Seven Scrolls of H'sann". Eldar myths are entirely capable of being metaphors, allegories or otherwise forming an incomplete or misleading historical record. The danger is only magnified when the Imperium translates things. For all we know, "Khaine fought the Nightbringer" could just have been the Eldar way at the time of saying that the Eldar who fought the Nightbringer fought with great skill (so that they became the physical embodiment of Khaine). In the same way that Khorne in modern times doesn't literally collect the skulls of the dead from the battlefield, for instance.

The combination of these points means that it's difficult to draw anything meaningful for this topic from the confrontation between the Nightbringer and Khaine during the War in Heaven. There are very important questions left unanswered. And as FarseerMatt pointed out, though the Nightbringer's necrodermis was broken and its essence forced out, we are not told that Khaine was banished into the Warp after the encounter.


In fluff, the Nightbringer wouldn't even be touched by Anngrath, while Anngrath would be systematically torn to shreds. The fight would last as long as the Nightbringer found it interesting. As soon as it lost its appeal, Anngrath would be sent back to the warp.

In the game, Anngrath, being 888 pts or so, would probably beat the Nightbringer who is less than half the pt cost.

An interesting hypothesis. But why not just take the Nightbringer's tabletop statistics as an approximately accurate estimation of its abilities? Remember that the Nightbringer is in, comparatively, an extremely weak state after its long and weakening hibernation. It's still an extremely powerful entity, but it's certainly not the being it was at the pinnacle of its powers. This is reflected fairly well in its 40k rules.

Baaltharus
19-01-2008, 13:38
A very comprehensive overview from DantesInferno. Anngrath could destroy the Necrodemis but it seems very unlikely that he would be able to cause any lasting damage to the Night Bringer. Similarly, while a Daemon can be destroyed utterly, its difficult (presumably even harder the more powerful the daemon is). The process seems to always involve some form of warp power, be it another daemon or holy weapon (and thus a connection to the warp power that is the Emperor). In this way if the C'tan was able to beat Anngrath it would only banish it and presumably be incapable of destroying it completely.

Cal9ar
19-01-2008, 13:58
Who or what is this Anngrath?

DantesInferno
19-01-2008, 14:06
Who or what is this Anngrath?

A <Forgeworld Bloodthirster> (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/bloodt.htm). Sekhmet presumably picked it as an example because it's the most powerful daemon existing in 40k for which we have rules (probably until the Forgeworld Lord of Change comes out).

Champsguy
19-01-2008, 14:11
Oh, and in before "anathema isn't an adjective."

That's good, because he didn't use it as an adjective. :)

Imp of High Noon
19-01-2008, 15:59
One popular alternative position, for instance, is that the Eldar Gods were in fact originally Old Ones,
.

Quoted from Liber Chaotica Slaanesh.
"I watched as the first ones encouraged the younger race to reach furthe into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the Star Gods.

but the battle was long and the First Ones were now few, and as their number dwindled, so too did their influence over their young creations. Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones to bind them, I saw the Eldar's warp-beings evole from sentient weapons into living Gods - the first true Gods of the immaterium. How I wept when the Eldar embraced them as such.

Time moved onwards and I saw the rise of the brother heroes, Eldanesh and Ulthanesh, who alone, in the absence of the First Ones, could control the Warp Gods and summon them onto the physical plane. I saw them march to war against the silver skinned Yngir, the Star Gods and their slaves, and I saw them Summon the dread lord Khaine, the Eldar's mighty God of war, to battle with them. I saw the brothers and their God lead their children into battle time and time again, pitting Chaos spawned furries against the souless technologies of the Yngir. But in time the boundries between the Gods of the Aethyr and the Gods of the stars blurred, and the Eldar could not tell one from another."


The Eldar created their Gods under the guidence of the Old Ones. Not a theory, not suggested by anything nor even slightly alluded to, but baldy stated. They are Not Old Ones.

Baltar
19-01-2008, 17:08
Fascinating thread I have to say.

Has anyone ever seen a C'Tan and a Greater Demon go at it on the Tabletop?

I feel like it would be helpful if the Fluff provided us with some measure of just how power-reduced C'Tan actually were inside of their Necrodermis.

Baaltharus
19-01-2008, 17:15
A C'tan would crush a 'normal' Greater daemon with relative impunity if they were both on full wounds. 2 rounds of combat will see most Greater daemons reduced to a puddle.

The_Warsmith
19-01-2008, 17:18
the problem with using the game rules as a level of the nightbringers power is the phase out rule

without the rule the nightbringer would certainly cost alot more points than it does

Sekhmet
19-01-2008, 18:29
A <Forgeworld Bloodthirster> (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/bloodt.htm). Sekhmet presumably picked it as an example because it's the most powerful daemon existing in 40k for which we have rules (probably until the Forgeworld Lord of Change comes out).

I was actually using Anngrath as the example because the OP specifically asked about Anngraht. :rolleyes:


I think the point was more that C'tan are more vulnerable to, say, a blast of Warp energy rather than an equivalently powerful blast of physical energy.

I give you that, because I don't think any amount of physical energy can actually hurt a C'tan. They eat stars.



A few things to be cleared up here:
Firstly, we can't say for sure what Khaine was at this point in the War in Heaven. It's possible he was a fully fledged Warp God with the ability to incarnate in the physical realm, but that's certainly not the only plausible theory. One popular alternative position, for instance, is that the Eldar Gods were in fact originally Old Ones, who only later ascended to the status of Warp Gods. This theory is said to draw support from Xenology. If this is the case, there's nothing particularly problematic about Khaine fighting the Nightbringer: it was just a (physical) Old One fighting a physical Nightbringer. The encounter doesn't tell us anything about how a pure creature of the Warp would fare against the C'tan.

But according to slaanesh, it's not an old one.



Secondly, we equally don't know anything for sure about Khaine's weapon. Was it purely physical or a warp-based one? Who can say for certain...

Well we know it was made by Vaul, and we know Vaul had made the 100 swords (or 99, 1 was defective) that could take down Necrons, and we know Vaul made the Talismans.. of Vaul. So by inference, we can assume it was a very powerful weapon. Unless Vaul wanted Khaine to lose. :eek:

And there's the fact that the only purely warp things in this reality are either really close to the Eye of Terror (or another similar thing), or are just blasts of warp energy. Even daemons have to "materialize" to get into this reality. If they were purely warp-based, you could just (literally) throw Pariahs at them and they'd be destroyed.



Thirdly, the Nightbringer fought Khaine at or near the pinnacle of the Nightbringer's powers. The Nightbringer is vastly weaker in M41 because it has spent 60 million years starving, feeding only on meager morsels after its harvester ship was banished into the Warp as the Nightbringer was going into hibernation at the end of the War in Heaven.

I give you that too. The table top version of the NB certainly reflects that, but I think it was mentioned that it'd only take him a very short time to get to full strength again (eating a star).



Finally, it's important to remember that the whole Khaine/Nightbringer encounter is reported to us through the Imperium's "approximate translation of a fragment from the Seven Scrolls of H'sann". Eldar myths are entirely capable of being metaphors, allegories or otherwise forming an incomplete or misleading historical record. The danger is only magnified when the Imperium translates things. For all we know, "Khaine fought the Nightbringer" could just have been the Eldar way at the time of saying that the Eldar who fought the Nightbringer fought with great skill (so that they became the physical embodiment of Khaine). In the same way that Khorne in modern times doesn't literally collect the skulls of the dead from the battlefield, for instance.

That's very true. It's also possible that the laughing god didn't trick the outsider at all, and that it was all the deceiver. It's also possible that the Eldar simply blame the Nightbringer for all their problems and they never really were able to reincarnate. The only thing we really know for certain about the Necrons is that they're waking up and they have the Deceiver and Nightbringer to lead them. EVERYTHING else is speculation and myths.



The combination of these points means that it's difficult to draw anything meaningful for this topic from the confrontation between the Nightbringer and Khaine during the War in Heaven. There are very important questions left unanswered. And as FarseerMatt pointed out, though the Nightbringer's necrodermis was broken and its essence forced out, we are not told that Khaine was banished into the Warp after the encounter.

That's why I said "iirc", cause apparently I didn't recall correctly.



An interesting hypothesis. But why not just take the Nightbringer's tabletop statistics as an approximately accurate estimation of its abilities? Remember that the Nightbringer is in, comparatively, an extremely weak state after its long and weakening hibernation. It's still an extremely powerful entity, but it's certainly not the being it was at the pinnacle of its powers. This is reflected fairly well in its 40k rules.
Which tabletop statistics for the Nightbringer? The 40k or the Epic ones? The Epic ones have him easily on par with Titans. The 40k ones make him a glorified walking monstrous creature. And the whole fact that it's a 40k rule, not a forgeworld rule, so it's balanced for smaller games. And the fluff showing that C'tan phase out of our reality until just before they strike, thus granting them a basic 2+ invul in close combat and they should be immune to shooting entirely.


A very comprehensive overview from DantesInferno. Anngrath could destroy the Necrodemis but it seems very unlikely that he would be able to cause any lasting damage to the Night Bringer. Similarly, while a Daemon can be destroyed utterly, its difficult (presumably even harder the more powerful the daemon is). The process seems to always involve some form of warp power, be it another daemon or holy weapon (and thus a connection to the warp power that is the Emperor). In this way if the C'tan was able to beat Anngrath it would only banish it and presumably be incapable of destroying it completely.

Right. But I don't think Anngrath could even hurt the Nightbringer, because the Nightbringer, like all C'tan, phase entirely out of this dimension. As in, nothing can touch them. They only phase in the moment before they attack. I can't imagine a servant of Khorne figuring that out and being able to take advantage of it. A Tzeentch greater daemon, maybe, or maybe a Slaaneshi greater daemon (since they may have some instinctual memories from the Eldar). But Khorne or Nurgle? No.


That's good, because he didn't use it as an adjective. :)
Well he kinda is, "[warp energy] is [adjective] to C'tan" is a lot easier to read than "[warp energy] is [noun] to C'tan". Try replace them with things like... painful, hurtful, scary... then try dog, cat, mouse.


Fascinating thread I have to say.

Has anyone ever seen a C'Tan and a Greater Demon go at it on the Tabletop?

I feel like it would be helpful if the Fluff provided us with some measure of just how power-reduced C'Tan actually were inside of their Necrodermis.
My Deceiver (not even the Nightbringer) frequently destroys Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Carnifexes, Wraithlords, Hive Tyrants, and various other Special Characters and close combat units.

redbaron998
19-01-2008, 19:32
Now wait just a minute here. Argaanath is pretty much completely unstoppable.

Now we all agree that in game stats dont equal fluff power, but they are usualy held to be somewhere in the ballpark. Argannath would past the Nightbringer every time.

Now true if it was when the Nightbringer was at full power it might be different story. but as the nightbringer is now I dont see him tossing around Argannath like a toy.

Now if it was on a daemonworld then it wouldnt really matter how powerful the Nightbringer may be as a daemon with a open warp envorment is pretty much unstoppable. At that point all you can do is mobilize several grey knight grandmasters with thier knights

Baltar
19-01-2008, 20:28
Now wait just a minute here. Argaanath is pretty much completely unstoppable.


The Nightbringer on the tabletop is an avatar of the Nightbringer in much the same way as the Avatar is an avatar of Khaine.

A Bloodthirster may be more powerful than the Nightbringer avatar, but not of the Nightbringer itself.

redbaron998
19-01-2008, 21:17
The Nightbringer on the tabletop is an avatar of the Nightbringer in much the same way as the Avatar is an avatar of Khaine.

A Bloodthirster may be more powerful than the Nightbringer avatar, but not of the Nightbringer itself.

Well in that case comparing a bloodthirster to the TT version of the nightbringer doesnt make sense.

So if you were going by that logic it would be THE nightbringer vs THE Khorne.

In whitch case place your bets and pull out the popcorn cause its gonna be a helluva show

Drasanil
19-01-2008, 21:25
The Nightbringer on the tabletop is an avatar of the Nightbringer in much the same way as the Avatar is an avatar of Khaine.

A Bloodthirster may be more powerful than the Nightbringer avatar, but not of the Nightbringer itself.

That's news to me, as far as I have ever seen only warp powers were able to subdivide themselves and manifest avatars. C'tan have never been stated to have that ability.

Ninjaguiden
19-01-2008, 21:35
Well, after reading your replies, I realize that any C'tan probably could just dodge or avoid the daemon in question (the Deciever would dodge so throughtly that he wouldn't even be in the fight in the first place!).

DantesInferno
20-01-2008, 00:06
Quoted from Liber Chaotica Slaanesh.
"I watched as the first ones encouraged the younger race to reach furthe into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the Star Gods.

but the battle was long and the First Ones were now few, and as their number dwindled, so too did their influence over their young creations. Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones to bind them, I saw the Eldar's warp-beings evole from sentient weapons into living Gods - the first true Gods of the immaterium. How I wept when the Eldar embraced them as such.

Time moved onwards and I saw the rise of the brother heroes, Eldanesh and Ulthanesh, who alone, in the absence of the First Ones, could control the Warp Gods and summon them onto the physical plane. I saw them march to war against the silver skinned Yngir, the Star Gods and their slaves, and I saw them Summon the dread lord Khaine, the Eldar's mighty God of war, to battle with them. I saw the brothers and their God lead their children into battle time and time again, pitting Chaos spawned furries against the souless technologies of the Yngir. But in time the boundries between the Gods of the Aethyr and the Gods of the stars blurred, and the Eldar could not tell one from another."


The Eldar created their Gods under the guidence of the Old Ones. Not a theory, not suggested by anything nor even slightly alluded to, but baldy stated. They are Not Old Ones.

Baldly stated, but by whom? How do they know for sure what happened? How do we compare the authenticity of this person's account with that of the (presumably Eldar) author of the tablet in Xenology?

And so on. My point was not that the Eldar-Gods-as-physical-Old-Ones-during-the-War-in-Heaven theory was definitely right or wrong, just that it's still up for debate. And the lingering question over the status of the Eldar Gods like Khaine and Vaul during the War in Heaven is just one of the reasons that we can't take the Khaine-Nightbringer fight as indicative of what would happen if a C'tan fought a powerful Greater Daemon in M41.


I was actually using Anngrath as the example because the OP specifically asked about Anngraht. :rolleyes:

Apologies...:p


I give you that, because I don't think any amount of physical energy can actually hurt a C'tan. They eat stars.

Just because you eat something doesn't mean you can't be hurt by it. I like to eat beef, but if you put me in an area with an angry bull, the bull's going to come out on top...

Maybe massive amounts of directed physical energy are able to fatally disrupt or disperse a C'tan's essence. We're unlikely to know for sure, of course, since all of the C'tan's enemies during the War in Heaven and at M41 use warp technology when they need to access such massively large amounts of energy, and the C'tan are presumably more vulnerable to directed warp energy anyway.


But according to slaanesh, it's not an old one.

But given that Slaanesh was born 60 000 000 years after the War in Heaven, his/her/its knowledge of the events is going to be restricted to the second-hand reports of the Eldar myths anyway. So it doesn't settle the issue at all.


And there's the fact that the only purely warp things in this reality are either really close to the Eye of Terror (or another similar thing), or are just blasts of warp energy. Even daemons have to "materialize" to get into this reality. If they were purely warp-based, you could just (literally) throw Pariahs at them and they'd be destroyed.

When a daemon "materialises", I was under the impression that the matter itself was generally made from the stuff/energy of the Warp, rather than being physical matter drawn together by warp power. Both fit with how Daemonic remains tend to dissolve into nothingness. To test it, you could see whether Daemons can be summoned in a vacuum....

As for throwing Pariahs at them: that's pretty much exactly what the Necrons plan to do. Unfortunately Pariahs are still incredibly scarce in the galaxy, and the Imperium's pretty good at rounding up lots of them for service (knowing, as the Necrons do, that they're very effective at preventing people using warp powers and giving daemons all sorts of difficulties). Also unfortunately for the Necrons is that it seems that Pariahs vary in terms of the effectiveness of their soulless aura. It's entirely possible that extremely strong psykers/daemons would be relatively unhindered by Pariahs in the area (how else did the Emperor function with his own Sisters of Silence nearby, for instance...).


I give you that too. The table top version of the NB certainly reflects that, but I think it was mentioned that it'd only take him a very short time to get to full strength again (eating a star).

I'd be very surprised if eating a single star was enough to get the Nightbringer back to full strength after 60 million years of starvation rations. Remember that, at the time of the War in Heaven, it had gorged on huge numbers of stars, Necrontyr, Old One client races like the Eldar, Old Ones themselves and other C'tan.


Which tabletop statistics for the Nightbringer? The 40k or the Epic ones? The Epic ones have him easily on par with Titans. The 40k ones make him a glorified walking monstrous creature. And the whole fact that it's a 40k rule, not a forgeworld rule, so it's balanced for smaller games.

Or maybe the games designers felt that the rules were an accurate representation of the Nightbringer's abilities after 60 million years of starving hibernation. As for the Epic rules, they're still listed as "Ongoing Experimental rules", so should be taken with a grain of salt.


And the fluff showing that C'tan phase out of our reality until just before they strike, thus granting them a basic 2+ invul in close combat and they should be immune to shooting entirely.

Sure, C'tan can phase in and out of reality. I don't see how it follows that they should have a 2+ invulnerable save in combat and be immune to shooting.

It's like taking the fact that Imperial Assassins have so good reflexes that they can dodge bullets, and arguing that they should be immune to shooting. Of course, they're pretty good, but they're not perfect: they can still get shot. A 4+ invulnerable save represents their abilities adequately.


Well he kinda is, "[warp energy] is [adjective] to C'tan" is a lot easier to read than "[warp energy] is [noun] to C'tan". Try replace them with things like... painful, hurtful, scary... then try dog, cat, mouse.

While I agree with you on this point, I don't think we should take it any further. I could almost hear the screams of innocent forum-goers emanating from my computer the last time you, azimaith and myself had our dictionary-definition-of-"anathema" war. Think of the children!


EDIT: I know that it might seem like I'm always disagreeing every point you're making. It's not the case: for brevity's sake I've left out the bits of your posts which I agree with.

Sekhmet
20-01-2008, 01:13
The point is, in shooting, C'tan can't be hurt. If I was as smart as the Deceiver, I'd just stay phased out on the battlefield forever, until just about to hit something. Assassins have to actively dodge things, and they can't dodge what they don't know is coming. And they obviously can't dodge lasers. C'tan phase out passively, they stay phased out until they need to attack. And Assassins can't dodge bullets, they can move out of the way before you fire though. The 2+ invul in combat would be against anything with lower initiative and maybe 4+ against something with higher initiative. But in shooting, C'tan would definitely be immune, if fluff was translated directly.

As for Epic rules being trial and thus taken with a pinch of salt, I could say the same thing for Imperial Armor vs Codexes.

The C'tan were sleeping for 60 million years in our terms... but they were in stasis. It might've only seemed like 1 year, or even 1 week, to them.


(I leave out bits that i agree with most of the time too)


As for table top anngroth (IA 2006) vs nightbringer (40k terms), assuming no one gets the charge bonus and the nightbringer does not get to shoot lightning, the nightbringer actually does more damage each round. But by the 3rd round, anngroth will kill the nightbringer with 4 wounds left.

Interestingly, the deceiver, although doing slightly less damage every round compared to the nightbringer, actually does the same average damage because the deceiver will get to attack in the 3rd round while the nightbringer does not.

Even more interesting, if the deceiver misdirects at every chance then re-charges in (thus he gets to last twice as long against anngroth), he's guaranteed the charge bonus for all 3 rounds of combat he fights. Thus, he'll actually do 5 wounds to anngroth while the nightbringer only does 4, although both will still lose eventually.

So quick summary:
Anngroth vs Nightbringer, no charges: Anngroth wins on the 3rd round with 4 wounds left
Anngroth vs Deceiver, no charges, straight up: Anngroth wins on the 3rd round with 4 wounds left
Anngroth vs Deceiver, misdirect happy: Anngroth wins on the 6th round with 3 wounds left

azimaith
20-01-2008, 06:03
Well pretty much the C'tan in game are a joke compared to C'tan in fluff.

To be honest my biggest issue has always been comparing in game nightbringer to being in fluff nightbringer, which is nowhere near the same thing.

I'm not certain why they felt it was necessary to add gods to a skirmish but they did, which of course lead to misgivings on the power in fluff. Could you imagine a model named "Khaine" and having the Avatars stats? Or a model named "Khorne" and having a bloodthirsters stats?

As for physical energy hurting c'tan, I don't see it working. Theres not really and such thing as physical energy, energy has no mass, which physicality would require. Some energies are produced by movement of physical objects, but thats not the same thing. A bullet doesn't have physical energy, it has kinetic energy, which is the energy of objects moving.

To hurt a C'tan you'd need a weapon that interacts with other energy, which I don't think we even have now.

If you fire two bullets at each other and the collide the physical impact tranfers the energy to one another, but they don't destroy each other. Since C'tan don't fade out on their own, essentially reach 0 energy that doesn't work. C'tan eat EM energy, but they don't indicate which wavelength, visible? Infrared? All of them?

If it were all of them a lascannon wouldn't even hurt them, it would be equivalent to what they normally endure eating stars.

This is why I put forth the warp as an energy bullet sort of thing. Since its an entirely new and fictional kind of energy it could actually have the potential to interact with other energy, perhaps an area of warp energy can not be occupied by any other sort of energy. This would allow warp energy to displace the C'tans body, hopefully scattering it till its no longer cohesive.

DantesInferno
20-01-2008, 07:57
Well pretty much the C'tan in game are a joke compared to C'tan in fluff.

To be honest my biggest issue has always been comparing in game nightbringer to being in fluff nightbringer, which is nowhere near the same thing.

Again, you have to remember that the Nightbringer we have rules for is a being which has been locked up, starving in its tomb, for 60 000 000 years. This isn't the same creature which was at the height of its powers during the War in Heaven, after it devoured countless stars, Necrontyr, Old One client species like the Eldar, Old Ones themselves and other C'tan.

Why be surprised if the Nightbringer's game representation isn't of the same power level as its background suggests it was during the War in Heaven? It's clear that the Nightbringer in M41 should be much weaker than it was in the War in Heaven.


I'm not certain why they felt it was necessary to add gods to a skirmish but they did, which of course lead to misgivings on the power in fluff. Could you imagine a model named "Khaine" and having the Avatars stats? Or a model named "Khorne" and having a bloodthirsters stats?

Maybe the game designers haven't done that because Khaine and Khorne in M41 are genuinely too powerful to add to a skirmish game.

Just because the C'tan and warp deities like Khorne and Khaine are all referred to as "gods" doesn't mean they're all of the same power level. For a start, they're fundamentally different types of entity: the C'tan are physical living things which are often worshipped as gods. Warp gods, however, are created in the Warp by the flowing together of the emotions of billions of sentient warp-capable beings.

There's no sense of cosmic fairness which dictates that the gods of the Necrontyr must be as powerful as the Warp Gods of the warp-capable races in M41. The Nightbringer, for example, might be as powerful as Khorne in M41, but it seems incredibly unlikely. Consider that the powers of Warp Gods in general have increased dramatically since the War in Heaven (cf. the permanent tear in reality caused by the birth of Slaanesh) while the Nightbringer has been wasting away for the last 60 000 000 years.


As for physical energy hurting c'tan, I don't see it working. Theres not really and such thing as physical energy, energy has no mass, which physicality would require. Some energies are produced by movement of physical objects, but thats not the same thing. A bullet doesn't have physical energy, it has kinetic energy, which is the energy of objects moving.

I'm fairly sure both Sekhmet and myself were using "physical energy" to refer to energy which is native to the physical universe (as opposed to energy brought forth from the Warp). I think it was fairly obvious we weren't referring to energy which has mass.


To hurt a C'tan you'd need a weapon that interacts with other energy, which I don't think we even have now.

If you fire two bullets at each other and the collide the physical impact tranfers the energy to one another, but they don't destroy each other. Since C'tan don't fade out on their own, essentially reach 0 energy that doesn't work. C'tan eat EM energy, but they don't indicate which wavelength, visible? Infrared? All of them?

If it were all of them a lascannon wouldn't even hurt them, it would be equivalent to what they normally endure eating stars.

Even if the C'tan are capable of eating all wavelengths of EM energy (for what it's worth, I suspect they are), it doesn't follow that they wouldn't be hurt by lascannon or other laser weapons. There might be something about the way it's delivered, or the state the C'tan receiving the energy is in, which determines whether it's sustaining or fatal. By way of analogy, I require water to stay alive, but force me to have too much at once and I'll drown, or spray some at me in a giant water cannon and I can be killed too.


The point is, in shooting, C'tan can't be hurt. If I was as smart as the Deceiver, I'd just stay phased out on the battlefield forever, until just about to hit something. Assassins have to actively dodge things, and they can't dodge what they don't know is coming. And they obviously can't dodge lasers. C'tan phase out passively, they stay phased out until they need to attack. And Assassins can't dodge bullets, they can move out of the way before you fire though. The 2+ invul in combat would be against anything with lower initiative and maybe 4+ against something with higher initiative. But in shooting, C'tan would definitely be immune, if Fluff was translated directly.

But from all the background descriptions of the C'tan we have, they generally don't just stay phased out until they want to hit something. It's really only the Nightbringer/Khaine fight where we're given an example of a C'tan acting like that. For the vast majority of the time, they're wandering around in their normal corporeal state.

The C'tan don't seem to always act in a way as to strictly minimise their risk of injury. But then again, find me a sentient creature that does! We humans , for instance, drive cars, drink alcohol and smoke in large numbers, even though we know it increases our risk of death. Sometimes the overall increases in convenience or pleasure are worth a small amount of extra risk to personal safety. Maybe the C'tan find it harder to get from A to B in phase space, maybe they simply enjoy being in the physical realm more, maybe they need to sense where they are or communicate with their minions. For whatever reason, they don't, in general, seem to be so preoccupied with their personal safety that they find it necessary to continually flit in and out of phase space.


As for Epic rules being trial and thus taken with a pinch of salt, I could say the same thing for Imperial Armor vs Codexes.

Imperial Armour books have a label "Ongoing Experimental rules" on the front? :eyebrows:

My point was that the Necron rules for Epic, unlike the rules for races including Chaos, Eldar, the Imperium etc, are labelled as experimental and a work in progress.

azimaith
20-01-2008, 08:37
Again, you have to remember that the Nightbringer we have rules for is a being which has been locked up, starving in its tomb, for 60 000 000 years. This isn't the same creature which was at the height of its powers during the War in Heaven, after it devoured countless stars, Necrontyr, Old One client species like the Eldar, Old Ones themselves and other C'tan.
The nightbringer rules in the book don't say anything of the sort. They just say: "Nightbringer" and while it may be intended, its not whats said, which leads to misgivings.



Why be surprised if the Nightbringer's game representation isn't of the same power level as its background suggests it was during the War in Heaven? It's clear that the Nightbringer in M41 should be much weaker than it was in the War in Heaven.

Because it doesn't tell us when, the nightbringer is out, what sort of situation its been in, how many stars its eaten since, or if this is reprentative of the nightbringer before. Remember Eldrad, hes dead, how is he represented at all?



Maybe the game designers haven't done that because Khaine and Khorne in M41 are genuinely too powerful to add to a skirmish game.

And the C'tan aren't. Perhaps you missed that Khaine fought the nightbringer.



Just because the C'tan and warp deities like Khorne and Khaine are all referred to as "gods" doesn't mean they're all of the same power level. For a start, they're fundamentally different types of entity: the C'tan are physical living things which are often worshipped as gods. Warp gods, however, are created in the Warp by the flowing together of the emotions of billions of sentient warp-capable beings.

C'tan are not physical things. They aren't even living by normal standards. They have no mass, no reproduction were aware of, they don't seem to excrete anything. They have no brain, no nervous system, no nothing that makes us consider something alive. They're no more living things than light is.
The only thing that makes them similar to a living thing is that they "eat"

The C'tan were born out of the birth of the universe, the warp gods were born later out of the disturbance of the warp.



There's no sense of cosmic fairness which dictates that the gods of the Necrontyr must be as powerful as the Warp Gods of the warp-capable races in M41. The Nightbringer, for example, might be as powerful as Khorne in M41, but it seems incredibly unlikely. Consider that the powers of Warp Gods in general have increased dramatically since the War in Heaven (cf. the permanent tear in reality caused by the birth of Slaanesh) while the Nightbringer has been wasting away for the last 60 000 000 years.

That would be great and all, but it doesn't say anywhere what verison of the Nightbringer is in the codex. I refrence the dead Eldrad once again.



I'm fairly sure both Sekhmet and myself were using "physical energy" to refer to energy which is native to the physical universe (as opposed to energy brought forth from the Warp). I think it was fairly obvious we weren't referring to energy which has mass.

We have no idea how native the C'tans energy is to the physical universe, they are capable of fully shifting themselves into phase space, perhaps thats they're native dimension and only EM radiation passes through it. Its a giant unknown on their nature.



Even if the C'tan are capable of eating all wavelengths of EM energy (for what it's worth, I suspect they are), it doesn't follow that they wouldn't be hurt by lascannon or other laser weapons. There might be something about the way it's delivered, or the state the C'tan receiving the energy is in, which determines whether it's sustaining or fatal. By way of analogy, I require water to stay alive, but force me to have too much at once and I'll drown, or spray some at me in a giant water cannon and I can be killed too.
The C'tan don't have vital organs to crush or lungs to flood. They bask in the full radiance of suns in a vacuum with very little intermediate material to shield them. C'tan don't have faces, legs, arms, feet, chests. They're energy fields that cover vast areas of space that go around toying with the laws of the physical universe.

DantesInferno
20-01-2008, 09:45
The nightbringer rules in the book don't say anything of the sort. They just say: "Nightbringer" and while it may be intended, its not whats said, which leads to misgivings.

Because it doesn't tell us when, the nightbringer is out, what sort of situation its been in, how many stars its eaten since, or if this is reprentative of the nightbringer before. Remember Eldrad, hes dead, how is he represented at all?

OK, we've got two time periods the Nightbringer has been active. The first was the War in Heaven which lasted thousands, if not millions of years. We know that the Nightbringer in the War in Heaven had become incredibly powerful. It had eaten loads and loads of Necrontyr, other C'tan, Old One client races, Old Ones, and stars. At the peak of its powers, we have accounts of it doing really impressive things: for example fighting with Khaine, the Eldar God of War.

It was then starved for 60 million years. It was subsequently awoken by Uriel Ventris in M41 and has been active for a handful of years up to the 40k "present" (999.M41). Now, we don't know exactly what the Nightbringer has been up to in the very short time its been awake in the 41st millennium, but it's certainly not going to compare to the thousands of years of carefree feasting that it enjoyed during the War in Heaven. It may have had a few stars, a few million humans, but that's negligible compared to what it consumed at its peak during the War in Heaven. (BTW, does anyone has an exact date for the events of Nightbringer? I'm assuming that it occurs at earliest 700.M41)

Now, as far as I can see, it's pretty bloody obvious that the rules we have are meant to represent the Nightbringer after it has awoken in the age of the Imperium, and not during the War in Heaven. The game, after all, is called Warhammer 40 000. The tagline is: "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war". The game set in the 41st millenium (or at the most broad from M31-M41). It's fairly obviously not set 60 million years ago during the War in Heaven.

Given that we know that the Nightbringer is severely weaker in M41 than it was 60 million years ago, why would you expect its rules for its M41 version to be anything like what it was like during the War in Heaven?

As for Eldrad: He was alive all the way from M31 to 999.M41. That's a lot of time in which games involving him could be set. The appearance of "historical" characters isn't anything new in 40k (Tycho, Macharius, Lysander are some other examples), but they're all alive at some point in M41, allowing you still to play battles in the 41st millennium.


And the C'tan aren't. Perhaps you missed that Khaine fought the nightbringer.

:confused:

As I already explained, the Nightbringer fought Khaine at the peak of its powers: having eaten its way through the galaxy, gorging on stars, C'tan, Old Ones, Necrontyr, Eldar, Krork, etc.

The Nightbringer, in the state for which we have rules, has just emerged from 60 million years of starvation. Why would you expect the rules for the Nightbringer in M41 to be even remotely comparable to the Nightbringer in its state which fought Khaine?


C'tan are not physical things. They aren't even living by normal standards. They have no mass, no reproduction were aware of, they don't seem to excrete anything. They have no brain, no nervous system, no nothing that makes us consider something alive. They're no more living things than light is.
The only thing that makes them similar to a living thing is that they "eat"

Hey, I was just going off the Necron Codex, which describes them as sentient creatures.

"It's life, Jim, but not as we know it...."


That would be great and all, but it doesn't say anywhere what verison of the Nightbringer is in the codex. I refrence the dead Eldrad once again.

Do you play Warhammer: 60 000 000BC? I honestly can't see how there could be any confusion.

The Gothic Me
20-01-2008, 10:04
The C'tan were sleeping for 60 million years in our terms... but they were in stasis. It might've only seemed like 1 year, or even 1 week, to them.


IIRC, the Nightbringer wasn't actually in stasis in that time, so he starved. This is supposedly why he's not that powerful in the rules, other then the obvious ballance reasons.

As for the Deceiver, I think he's just particularly weak.

Pete278
20-01-2008, 12:21
IIRC, the Nightbringer wasn't actually in stasis in that time, so he starved. This is supposedly why he's not that powerful in the rules, other then the obvious ballance reasons.

As for the Deceiver, I think he's just particularly weak.
If the Deceiver you fielded was the same Deceiver, you wouldn't move him. He'd be an enemy model, as he would've taken their shape. Then he would proceed to kill them one by one, and they would never see him, ever. He tricks an assassin, after all. They're not exactly the bluntest tool in the shed.

Ashnari Doomsong
20-01-2008, 14:37
...people tend to notice when people next to them die. And then they tend to notice the big shadow-wearing monstrosity that entered their camp disguised as one of their own.
And then they tend to vapourise said monstrosity, sending it reeling back into space.

Sekhmet
20-01-2008, 17:22
Again, you have to remember that the Nightbringer we have rules for is a being which has been locked up, starving in its tomb, for 60 000 000 years. This isn't the same creature which was at the height of its powers during the War in Heaven, after it devoured countless stars, Necrontyr, Old One client species like the Eldar, Old Ones themselves and other C'tan.

Either the C'tan in-game are avatars, or they're badly toned down for balance, or the Nightbringer is on the verge of death by starvation in the game and the Deceiver is really that weak. I opt for option 2 actually, but they could all make sense.



Maybe the game designers haven't done that because Khaine and Khorne in M41 are genuinely too powerful to add to a skirmish game.

It's also not possible in M41. Khaine required some special summoning with certain Eldar heroes IIRC, and once they died it said he could no longer enter the physical universe. If a Greater Daemon requires a huge amount of energy to summon, yet is only a small portion of the warp god, I don't think it's possible to field the actual god itself.

And if you did, what would happen to the Warp? Say if some crafty Eldar (pun intended... as they'd be from the craftworlds... :)) found an actual way to summon the GOD Slaanesh. But not only that, they found a way to contain it and trap it here forever. Then there'd be no more Slaaneshi daemons to worry about. Slaaneshi sorcerers wouldn't have any more power. The Eldar wouldn't have to use their infinity circuit or spirit stones either. The Dark Eldar could stop making sacrifices (although they probably wouldn't, but they could). The warp would be a much calmer place. As long as you were discreet about it and didn't allow it to get out of hand, you could become as decadent as you wanted with no chance of daemonic possession.



There's no sense of cosmic fairness which dictates that the gods of the Necrontyr must be as powerful as the Warp Gods of the warp-capable races in M41. The Nightbringer, for example, might be as powerful as Khorne in M41, but it seems incredibly unlikely. Consider that the powers of Warp Gods in general have increased dramatically since the War in Heaven (cf. the permanent tear in reality caused by the birth of Slaanesh) while the Nightbringer has been wasting away for the last 60 000 000 years.

You also have to compare them to their own environment. C'tan can break the laws of physics. Warp Gods can do much the same thing in the Warp. But the C'tan can't enter the Warp, and the Warp Gods can't really enter Reality. And just to nitpick, the Chaos Gods didn't exist in the War in Heaven... the only things that are still here that were in also in the War in Heaven are all the Necron forces (except Pariahs), the 4 C'tan, 2 Eldar Gods, some Eldar artifacts (like Talismans and Black Library) and maybe the 2 Ork Gods. Everything else in the Warp and Reality was born/created since then.



Even if the C'tan are capable of eating all wavelengths of EM energy (for what it's worth, I suspect they are), it doesn't follow that they wouldn't be hurt by lascannon or other laser weapons. There might be something about the way it's delivered, or the state the C'tan receiving the energy is in, which determines whether it's sustaining or fatal. By way of analogy, I require water to stay alive, but force me to have too much at once and I'll drown, or spray some at me in a giant water cannon and I can be killed too.

I'd say with 100% certainty that C'tan laugh at Lascannons. Their Necrodermis does not.



But from all the background descriptions of the C'tan we have, they generally don't just stay phased out until they want to hit something. It's really only the Nightbringer/Khaine fight where we're given an example of a C'tan acting like that. For the vast majority of the time, they're wandering around in their normal corporeal state.


The C'tan don't seem to always act in a way as to strictly minimise their risk of injury. But then again, find me a sentient creature that does! We humans , for instance, drive cars, drink alcohol and smoke in large numbers, even though we know it increases our risk of death. Sometimes the overall increases in convenience or pleasure are worth a small amount of extra risk to personal safety. Maybe the C'tan find it harder to get from A to B in phase space, maybe they simply enjoy being in the physical realm more, maybe they need to sense where they are or communicate with their minions. For whatever reason, they don't, in general, seem to be so preoccupied with their personal safety that they find it necessary to continually flit in and out of phase space.

Notice I said "in the battlefield". Imagine you had gloves that could protect you from hot things, like say, a cast iron pan over a stove. Said gloves gave you 100% complete immunity from heat, but they hampered your ability to interact with other things, like say, a pencil. Now you wouldn't wear the gloves all the time as you couldn't write a letter (or type on your keyboard), but if you knew you'd have to handle a hot pan, you'd wear your gloves.

Sometimes, you have to take off your gloves in order to put a new ingredient into the pan. If the pan was smart and skilled (like Khaine), it'd choose that exact moment to splatter you with hot oil. But, I'd say that chance is.. oh... 1/6. :D

See the analogy I'm making? In every day situations, I'm sure they'd rather interact with the physical world. But in a battle where there's ordnance and high-powered weapons flying everywhere, they'd stay phased until just before they strike.





Imperial Armour books have a label "Ongoing Experimental rules" on the front? :eyebrows:

Imperial Armour books are allowed in the GT? :eyebrows: Sure they're "published" unlike Necron Epic rules, but they have the same practicality.

Khaine's Messenger
20-01-2008, 19:59
(BTW, does anyone has an exact date for the events of Nightbringer? I'm assuming that it occurs at earliest 700.M41)

It occurred in the late 990s of M41; most of the Ventris series does, since that's roughly the era in which he was Captain of the 4th Company (possibly even as late as 999.M41).

As to the whole C'tan vs. Daemon thing? If you want to push it, a daemon should be capable of wounding a C'tan's necrodermis, yes. While it might depend somewhat on your interpretation, the interface between warpspace and realspace has notable side-effects, particularly in a load of exotic particles and energy readings (the very things that allow for the various means of detecting psychic phenomena, eg, as well as the reason that warp drive activation inside a star system is a Bad Idea). Just because the daemon warps a stop sign into his weapon of terror doesn't mean it still has the physical properties of a stop sign--indeed, in not a small number of cases, the weapon is a part of the daemon wielding it. And, as part of a warp-manifestation, it can cause painful ripples in reality that a C'tan cannot control or avoid. Mind you, wraith-cannons are far more dangerous since they open holes to the warp at range, allowing for all the nastiness of directly interacting with the warp, but (in game parlance) daemon weapons (and weapons wielded by daemons) would still be able to "hit" every once in a while.

Mechanicus
20-01-2008, 20:12
As to the release of the Nightbringer, the old BL site placed it at 999.M41, but that's quite frankly impossible. The events of Nightbringer alone (including the travel from Ultramar to Pavonis) probably took something like five months, and nearly a year passes between Pavonis and Tarsis Ultra. In Dead Sky, Black Sun, Storm of Iron has already occurred, with Honsou having returned for at least a month (he joins a battle on the way back, and then gets to Medrengard, practically the entire Eye of Terror away), with Storm of Iron taking place just before the 13th Black Crusade (the Warsmith mentions time constraints being an important factor several times, and Macragge sent troops to the Eye in Dead Sky, Black Sun). Given the massive amount of travel done by Uriel, I can't see the Nightbringer being released any later than mid 997, and that's stretching it in my mind. The earliest it can be done is around 993/4, since that's just after Ichar IV, in which he served.

Anyway, now that I've rambled on, back to the topic at hand... :p

Khaine's Messenger
20-01-2008, 20:23
Well, to be honest, it's quite possible that some of the dates are based on the reports of these incidents and not the "absolute" time in which they occurred (if such could be measured). It's one of the handwaved bits that isn't brought up much. From a dim recollection, there was even a report on the ArmIII website dated from early M42 but was obviously only relevant "now." But even with that caveat, you can't shove the Pavonis incident too far into the past.

El_Machinae
21-01-2008, 01:09
I don't really have a solid way of differentiating between the necrodermis and the C'tan itself (with regards to the demons)

DantesInferno
21-01-2008, 11:13
Either the C'tan in-game are avatars, or they're badly toned down for balance, or the Nightbringer is on the verge of death by starvation in the game and the Deceiver is really that weak. I opt for option 2 actually, but they could all make sense.

I'm just having difficulty understanding why you'd bother with options 1 or 2 when the Necron Codex is pretty explicit in telling us that it's option 3.


It's also not possible in M41. Khaine required some special summoning with certain Eldar heroes IIRC, and once they died it said he could no longer enter the physical universe. If a Greater Daemon requires a huge amount of energy to summon, yet is only a small portion of the warp god, I don't think it's possible to field the actual god itself.

Well, yes, that's another difficulty with adding beings like Khaine and Khorne into the tabletop game. My point for azimaith was that even if they could be summoned as entities onto the battlefield, they'd be too powerful to appropriately represent in the Warhammer 40 000 game. Unlike, for example, the Nightbringer's incarnation in the Necron Codex: we're given good reason why its so weak after 60 000 000 years of starvation, and its still a fairly impressive beast on the battlefield.

(And as an aside, it's not totally inconceivable that Khorne could be physically summoned. If you can summon a small portion of Khorne with a huge amount of belief [Bloodthirster], it might be in theory possible to summon the whole Khorne with an appropriately larger amount of belief. That would make it impractical rather than impossible)


You also have to compare them to their own environment. C'tan can break the laws of physics. Warp Gods can do much the same thing in the Warp. But the C'tan can't enter the Warp, and the Warp Gods can't really enter Reality. And just to nitpick, the Chaos Gods didn't exist in the War in Heaven... the only things that are still here that were in also in the War in Heaven are all the Necron forces (except Pariahs), the 4 C'tan, 2 Eldar Gods, some Eldar artifacts (like Talismans and Black Library) and maybe the 2 Ork Gods. Everything else in the Warp and Reality was born/created since then.

Well, the Warp Gods seem to have more influence over reality than the C'tan have influence over the Warp. The Warp Gods can affect the actions of mortals in realspace, they can send forth daemons into realspace, and so forth. The most the C'tan can do to the warp is to attempt to cut it off entirely, or affect mortals who use the warp.

As an aside, the Chaos Gods, or at least beings which later developed into the Chaos Gods as we know them, were created by the turmoil in the Warp in the War in Heaven.


Notice I said "in the battlefield". Imagine you had gloves that could protect you from hot things, like say, a cast iron pan over a stove. Said gloves gave you 100% complete immunity from heat, but they hampered your ability to interact with other things, like say, a pencil. Now you wouldn't wear the gloves all the time as you couldn't write a letter (or type on your keyboard), but if you knew you'd have to handle a hot pan, you'd wear your gloves.

Sometimes, you have to take off your gloves in order to put a new ingredient into the pan. If the pan was smart and skilled (like Khaine), it'd choose that exact moment to splatter you with hot oil. But, I'd say that chance is.. oh... 1/6. :D

See the analogy I'm making? In every day situations, I'm sure they'd rather interact with the physical world. But in a battle where there's ordnance and high-powered weapons flying everywhere, they'd stay phased until just before they strike.

Well, they may have during the War in Heaven, at least. But the Nightbringer at least is a whole lot weaker now, so it might not be capable of such invulnerable-phasing-at-will. And the Deceiver was always noted as being much less physically able than the other C'tan, so hit might never have been capable of such phasing gymnastics.

Maybe a 2+ invulnerable save may have suited the Nightbringer's abilities during the War in Heaven, but it's been greatly weakened, so a 4+ invulnerable might be entirely appropriate.


Imperial Armour books are allowed in the GT? :eyebrows: Sure they're "published" unlike Necron Epic rules, but they have the same practicality.

I'm still not seeing the force of your analogy. The Imperial Armour books are official GW publications, whether or not the units inside them are allowed in tournaments seems entirely irrelevant. In contrast, the Epic Necron list is labelled as "Ongoing Experimental rules", and has a big warning up the top that they're rules for everyone to playtest and send in suggestions to be altered. Just saying they should be taken with a great deal more salt than rules which are actually in GW publications.


It occurred in the late 990s of M41; most of the Ventris series does, since that's roughly the era in which he was Captain of the 4th Company (possibly even as late as 999.M41).

It's that late, is it?

There you go azimaith: the Nightbringer's only been active for 10 years at the most. Nowhere near enough time to get himself back up to his peak War-in-Heaven condition, so there's really no confusion about when the 40k rules version of the Nightbringer is meant to be set: it's from 990.M41 to 999.M41.

azimaith
21-01-2008, 13:43
All I have to say, and with incredulity is:
"The nightbringer escaped his tomb and spent ten years *not* eating anything despite being starving?"

Rockerfella
21-01-2008, 14:28
I think, to be fair, the most important thing here to remember, when comparing the C'tan to Deamons and the Eldar Gods is that the nature of these entities are not the same.

Were the Eldar gods specifically warp entities? Were they the first gods of the warp, or were they something else all together? If they were warp gods, how could they then matierialise in reality, unlike the other warp gods we see today?

Thismakes me think that they weren't really made of the same 'stuff' the current warp gods are. Unless, the 'Khaine' we see in the war in heaven fighting the nighbringer was actually an oversized Avatar. Still not the God itself, but some form of uber physical representation of.

I dunoo.

Its a tough discussion because we know so little about the real nature of these entities. Khaine was 'summoned' apparently, but then so are Avatars, in a fashion. Was it the whole of Khaines essences strapped to the materium that fought the nightbringer? I dunoo!

I have, however, always held the belief that the current bringer we see is a weakened version of the WiH Nightbringer. Having said that, how can you possibly represent a character as massivley powerful as the NB on the tabletop? Its silly. You can't do it, and thats why his stats are poop. In all fairness. The only way to justify his ludicsrous stats is to hammer out the 'he's weaker now than he was back then' line.

azimaith
21-01-2008, 14:38
This is why i've said I hope they totally remove the C'tan special characters from the codex. Even in their weakened form they should be capable of mushing any sort of skirmish they get involved in. Hes had a decade to recoup his losses. Replace the C'tan with "Eidelons" that are like giant living metal statues of their gods, imbued with a small amount of their power. That makes more sense rather than their gods making a personal appearance.

Ashnari Doomsong
21-01-2008, 14:39
How, exactly, would that make even the remotest sense?

Chains and Glass
21-01-2008, 14:41
ummm.... if he spent 10 years str8 eating suns.... i doubt he'd be as powerful as he was when he was spending millions of years str8 eating suns (stars.... wahtever)....

Ok a few small notes:

The "Avatar of Nightbringer" idea spawned from Dawn of war im imagining??? because it does not say so in any of the 40k texts.... however im willing to say that that would explain a fair few things.... the Nightbringer should not be able to be taken down by a stray Multilaser or Plasma Pistol shot.... no matter how lucky the situation is.

In an old Rogue Trader book (well.... a book about a rogue trader... forget the name, if anyone remembers it tell me... i want it) a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch and a Greater Daemon of Khorne face off by joining two daemon worlds together with a bridge and pouring the populations into a battle on the bridge (yes they actually made a bridge between the planets)... so im assuming therefore that higher ranking daemons have the whole "power over stars and planets" thing that C'tan have...

Ok... the "a bloodthirster couldn't figure out the phasing out timing of a C'tan" is a bit rediculous... your making the assumption that the bloodthirster is the avatar of brutish blood-gorging.... where-as in uncountable texts bloodthirsters are daemons of violence and martial skill.... skill....... SKILL..... and Khorne is the god of warriors and all that jazz (he draws alot of warriors to him... blah blah its in BL books i know it) so i can safely assume... if there is anything in the Galaxy that could find a chink in the C'tans armour... so to speak... it would be the embodiment of martial skill (aka Khaine or Khorne.... and considering Khaine is limited to Eldar and Khorne it "supposedly" limited to Humans (and orks apparently) i'd say Khorne.... (if you pitched Humanity against Eldar... in a 1v1..... Eldar got NO hope anymore....

Sorry about the poor attempt at referencing but im tired and its all in Black Library books (so any books involving daemons and chaos is a good place to start im assuming.... i cant remember book names...

azimaith
21-01-2008, 14:53
ummm.... if he spent 10 years str8 eating suns.... i doubt he'd be as powerful as he was when he was spending millions of years str8 eating suns (stars.... wahtever)....

So if you ate a million burritos since you were born you'd end up weighing more than a million burritos? The stargods don't necessarily keep all they get from stars, they have to eat, which infers they use up energy, which infers they excrete some sort of unusable energy. So unless you weigh the as much as every single piece of food you've ever eaten, I don't see how its hard to understand.



Ok a few small notes:

The "Avatar of Nightbringer" idea spawned from Dawn of war im imagining??? because it does not say so in any of the 40k texts.... however im willing to say that that would explain a fair few things.... the Nightbringer should not be able to be taken down by a stray Multilaser or Plasma Pistol shot.... no matter how lucky the situation is.

I wrote that idea long before necrons were in DoW.


How, exactly, would that make even the remotest sense?

Because thats exactly what the nightbringer did with his ship.

Ashnari Doomsong
21-01-2008, 14:59
Which one? The one that got tossed into the Warp?

Rockerfella
21-01-2008, 15:00
(aka Khaine or Khorne.... and considering Khaine is limited to Eldar and Khorne it "supposedly" limited to Humans (and orks apparently) i'd say Khorne.... (if you pitched Humanity against Eldar... in a 1v1..... Eldar got NO hope anymore....



But thats the point isn't it, that it was Khaine 60'000'000 years ago, when he was uber 'ard, and yet not nearly as hard as he became later during the Empire days.

Its a tough comparison, as he fought a nighbringer at the peak of his power, so to speak. You have to put them in the context of their respective times...

azimaith
21-01-2008, 15:12
Yes that one