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View Full Version : Assuming GW leaked this themselves... Preemptive Rules Clarification



LittleLeadMen
19-01-2008, 13:21
Let's for a moment consider that GW leaked the 5th edition ruleset themselves. If they have, and if they are looking for input, let's give it to them.

Here are the guidelines for this thread:

1. This thread IS NOT about the validity if they leaked it- who leaked it, or how it impacts GW, gamers, whatever.

2. This thread IS NOT about how you like or dislike the new rules or to gripe about it

3. This is not a thread for brand new rules suggestions, unless they are clearly for an adjustment/clarification on the current WIP rules.

What IS this thread about? To present obvious mistakes, unclear rules, concepts so they can be fixed BEFORE the actual book is printed. Maybe GW will actually read Warseer and take note.

So, I'll kick it off. :) Here are some obvious rules problems/conflicts I found and hope are fixed. (EDIT: To keep this consolidated, I'll add in others found by people so it can be a single, main list)

1. USR Hit and Run. The Hit and Run USR still doesn't provide a mechanism for dealing with multiple combatants that have the same USR. There is no way to tell which combatant unit with Hit and Run can use it, or which is first. Obviously, once one combat unit leaves, the other wouldn't be able to Hit and Run and could only consolidate.

(I would suggest that they do it in Initiative order, since they are now requiring an Initiative test to use it anyhow)

2. The new rules allow enemy units to take casualties beyond line of sight and maximum range of the shooting unit, assuming that they can still hit at least one model in the target unit. (page 20, allocating wounds) Later, however, the rulebook seems to contradict this on "Units Partially in Cover" on page 22, saying that models out of sight cannot be hit. Which is it? Maybe the language needs to be tightened up to avoid ANY confusion on this.

3. All shooting is now true LOS for models. However, when using an area terrain piece, such as a forest, we often have a terrain footprint and several trees on individual bases. Since the individual trees aren't "really" were they are, how should we handle Line of Sight since the tree models are not static? This is very different than a static piece of terrain, such as a building, where the piece won't change, ie, the walls of the terrain piece are always in the same location so we can always judge the actual line of sight.

A little more clarification would be helpful in the new ruleset before commercial release.

4.In units of single-wound models, whoever fails his save dies. In units of multi-wound models, wounds can be siphoned off the special guys onto regular troopers due to the "remove whole models" rule.

5. There are no rules on how ordnance effects walkers (assault or not) and no targeting rules for it.

6. Attacks seem to be explicitly included with the 'no Characteristic can be raised above 10' camp, which makes the Khornate Daemon Weapon even less appealing. Do codex upgrades allow models to have more than 10? Do you count the weapon upgrade against the stat limit?

7. Power Fists: You can't get a bonus attack if the model has a power fist and a pistol/close combat weapon. Ok, that's new. But if I have a close combat weapon and a power fist, but don't use the power fist ability, I do get the extra attack? Isn't the power fist the same bulky object, regardless? It seems to make more sense and would less confusing to players if you just keep it one way. Either give the extra attack or don't give it if the model has a power fist.

8. Shooting section, under "Check Range"

Quote: "Any model in the firing unit that is found to be out of range of at least one visible model in the target unit misses automatically."
It's obvious what they meant:
If you don't have range and LOS to at least one model, you miss.

But what the text actually says is:
If there is a model in the enemy unit that is in LOS, but not in range, you miss, regarldess of how many other models ARE in range.

9. Panic/morale tests are taken if a friendly unit flees through another friendly unit. It specifically says "through". Jumppack models flee using their movement and it says that they fly "over" models. I can already see arguments over this one: Do flying/jumppack/jet pack models that are fleeing cause panic checks on friendly units they pass over?

lord_blackfang
19-01-2008, 13:24
In units of single-wound models, whoever fails his save dies. In units of multi-wound models, wounds can be siphoned off the special guys onto regular troopers due to the "remove whole models" rule.

LittleLeadMen
19-01-2008, 13:35
good one! That's what we're looking for here. :)
Let's get GW to fix any obvious mistakes BEFORE release and waiting another year for a FAQ. :)

Here's another one that isn't huge, but doesn't make a lot of sense to me:

1. Power Fists: You can't get a bonus attack if the model has a power fist and a pistol/close combat weapon. Ok, that's new. But if I have a close combat weapon and a power fist, but don't use the power fist ability, I do get the extra attack? Isn't the power fist the same bulky object, regardless? It seems to make more sense and would less confusing to players if you just keep it one way. Either give the extra attack or don't give it if the model has a power fist.

Killmaimburn
19-01-2008, 13:43
They ran away from any clarification or expansion as to the psychic powers debate (is it a total opt out for one missed criteria or step by step get outs of shooting law, my views are irrelevant, the fact that so many argue over them means they should have bulked out that bit more etc).
you don't want a list of spelling errors do you?

1. Power Fists: You can't get a bonus attack
Not meaning to sidetrack the thread, but I might consider that a balancer due to the removal of a lot of in game mechanics that were desinged to get rid of hidden fists, e.g. torrent of fire and torrent of blows appear to have gone, making the fist much stronger again.(they were brought in for 4th ed to winkle pic out hidden lascannons and fists, and I'll miss them)

Mojaco
19-01-2008, 13:45
In units of single-wound models, whoever fails his save dies. In units of multi-wound models, wounds can be siphoned off the special guys onto regular troopers due to the "remove whole models" rule.

In addition, sometimes whole units are unique and single wound (chaos chosen, harlequins, imperial guard command squads, etc). This severly reduced the speed of the game, especially in the context of armageddon.

Bloodknight
19-01-2008, 13:47
There are no rules on how ordnance effects walkers (assault or not) and no targeting rules for it.

LittleLeadMen
19-01-2008, 13:48
@ Mojaco: Again, these are interesting points and constructive criticism, but the thread orientation is to point actual conflicts, errors, etc in an effort to have them corrected before actual release.

@ KillMaimBurn: Again, nice points re: powerfist, but this really isn't about "Why" they changed things. Only to point out needed corrections, holes, and inconsistencies, and possible sticking points for players.

Ironhand
19-01-2008, 13:52
I think limiting Defensive weapons to STR 4 is a mistake since it eliminates the heavy bolter. Defensive weapons should be STR 5 or less.

LittleLeadMen
19-01-2008, 13:54
Again, this isn't for rules suggestions, only corrections and clarifications. I appreciate your idea and even agree with it. I just don't want this this to get sidetracked here with 6 million posts about defensive weapons like some of the other threads have.

@ Bloodknight: That's a BIG one! I hope they fix that.

Lastie
19-01-2008, 14:16
Attacks seem to be explicitly included with the 'no Characteristic can be raised above 10' camp, which makes the Khornate Daemon Weapon even less appealing ...

lord_blackfang
19-01-2008, 14:21
Shooting section, under "Check Range"


Any model in the firing unit that is found to be out of range of at least one visible model in the target unit misses automatically.

It's obvious what they meant:
If you don't have range and LOS to at least one model, you miss.

But what the text actually says is:
If there is a model in the enemy unit that is in LOS, but not in range, you miss, regarldess of how many other models ARE in range.

Vic
19-01-2008, 14:54
Where'd you find 5th ed? I'd love to take a crack at it, do editing on it. How do we send the corrections to GW?

LittleLeadMen
19-01-2008, 15:26
Again, as per the Warseer rules, we're not going to give out info on where to find the book. I've had a few PMs asking for the book, and while I appreciate your enthusiasm, I can't distribute it.

We're limiting the discussion to obvious errors and corrections.

I found another possible issue:

1. Panic/morale tests are taken if a friendly unit flees through another friendly unit. It specifically says "through".

Jumppack models flee using their movement and it says that they fly "over" models. I can already see arguments over this one: Do flying/jumppack/jet pack models that are fleeing cause panic checks on friendly units they pass over?

The_Outsider
19-01-2008, 15:30
What about a fleeing unit fleeing through a pinned one?

LittleLeadMen
19-01-2008, 15:36
@ The Outsider: That seems to be covered under the Pinning rules on page 22. It says that pinned units take Morale tests as normal, and that if assaulted or if it must fall back (which is what would happen on a failed panic check) the unit returns to normal.

Deus Mechanicus
19-01-2008, 16:28
Can someone NOT Pm me a link on how to get it if it's a torrent or so.
Absolutly not do this as it would be illegal.

Latro_
19-01-2008, 17:40
and so this thread ticks away till closure

Rabid Bunny 666
19-01-2008, 18:40
Can someone NOT Pm me a link on how to get it if it's a torrent or so.
Absolutly not do this as it would be illegal.

Dude, noone is going to message you it, you'll just have to ind it yourself like everyone else did.

LittleLeadMen
20-01-2008, 14:43
Again, I've received another several PMs asking me for this book. Please don't ask for it. In accordance with Warseer's policies I'm not going to give it out, nor is anyone else on the forum.

This is NOT the place to ask for the rules. This thread is solely dedicated to discussion of rules issues that we've found.

Grazzy
20-01-2008, 19:03
I think limiting Defensive weapons to STR 4 is a mistake since it eliminates the heavy bolter. Defensive weapons should be STR 5 or less.

I agree. Heavy bolters are the ''defensive weapon'' on most imperial tanks like russes and preds.