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Strakar
26-09-2005, 06:28
I'm trying to put together an elf infantry list incorporating Phoenix Guards and Swordmasters (because I like the models) with a respectable dose of core troops. Hopefully it will be a little different without getting mopped up at the same time.

Archmage Level 4 -- Book of Hoeth (355)

Mage Level 2 -- Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll (180)

16 Spearmen -- Full Command (216)
16 Spearmen -- Full Command (216)
6 Silver Helms -- Champ (152)
6 Silver Helms -- Champ, Banner of Ellyrion (181)

12 Swordmasters -- Champ (168)

2 Great Eagles (100)

23 Phoenix Guards -- Full Command, Banner of Sorcery (430)
Lvl 2 mage goes with them

1998 points.

Are these guys going to get maimed? With no shooting to speak of, I'd like to harass the enemy with as much magic as possible channeled through the archmage with the occassional ring of fury going through. I pray that whatever infantry unit gets charged can hold for one turn while one of the support groups slams into the flank.

If this doesn't work, any ideas just for a better infantry army in general?

g0ddy
26-09-2005, 18:53
I used to have great success running a prince, 1 noble, 1 or 2 mages (lvl2)
(cant remember exactly)2 units of 20 spearmen, 6 silver helms, 19 sword masters, 19 white lions, a chariot, 1-2 eagles and a bolt thrower. (2000 pts)

I have not use phoenix guard myself - but i have heard good things, im not sure about the size though, the pts cost is a bit much. Additionally as it is your only "effective" combat unit it will draw a lot of enemy fire.

- g0ddy

Chi
27-09-2005, 04:35
Additionally as it is you ownly "effective" combat unit it will draw a lot of enemy fire.

I beg to differ. I used to think this about high elves but then i saw what two regiments of spear elves supporting eachother can do to rank and file infantry.

4-5 rank deep 6 across big block spearmen regiments can get an INSANE amount of attacks. Think about it. 18 attacks for a 6 across 3 deep regiment. Then if you manage to get two of those bad boys in combat that is a whopping 36 attacks. And against toughness 3 rank and file those attacks really hurt. The spearmen just end up grinding away at the opposing regiment and ultimatly break them to pieces.

High elf spearmen are excellent at taking out average toughness average armor troops. The lower the toughness/armor save/ws of the opponent the better they do (dramatically) because of their high amount of attacks.

I would recommend dropping some phoenix guard and filling out those spear regiments to be at least 25 men strong and near your general. They wont let you down and have a better chance of handling a charge for one turn than 16 guys. I would also not take pheonix guard and instead go for like 15 swordmasters to use as a flanking unit in a 5X3 formation to support those spears. They hit harder than pheonix guard. (im not a high elf player, can you only take one unit of swordmasters? if yes then maybe consider white lions, you need str 5).

There is also a banner you can take that gives you an extra D6 combat resolution? Ya... take that and place it in a spearmen regiment if you plan on them getting charged. You will really surprise the **** out of someone as their elite unit is broken by spearmen. Also consider any banners that make those spearmen stubborn/unbreakable, etc. Classic hammer and anvil with the silver helms. I have found that those guys are weak as hell so ALWAYS use them in conjunction with another unit unless they are charging teletubbies.

Hope this helps... :D

EDIT: wait... i ment at least 24 elves in the spearmen regiment so 6X4 :P

blame society

Strakar
27-09-2005, 05:07
Thanks for the advice. I know just about everyone is going to say dump the PG, but I'm trying to find a way to integrate them successfully.

At work right now so don't have any rules with me. I think you can only take one unit of swordmasters. Wouldn't a 6x2 formation be better for a flanking unit, since your anvil is presumably going to get you up to your +3 rank bonus maximum anyway?

I was trying to beef up the spears but just kept running out of points. I almost think that an MSU approach might have merit because with two big blocks of spears and three or four support units, you're going to be outnumbered unit-wise in almost any game. Even the fleet-footed elves would have trouble outmanuevering another army when they have so few (soft) targets for the enemy to focus on.

I like the idea of sticking the D6 combat res banner in a surprise unit, but the only way that can go in is on a T3 commander BSB that's going to have no points leftover for any magic items to protect him. From reading the boards, most people frown on high elf BSBs.

Do units only autobreak to fear if the unit itself that causes fear outnumbers them, or if the fear-causing unit is involved in a larger combat does it work as well? For example, if 20 Phoenix Guards are fighting 25 rank/file with 6 silver helms in their flank, the enemy is outnumbered but not all by fear-causing troops. Can the phoenix guards be effective in a smaller support unit?

What about the characters? Should I stick with the Book of Hoeth on an archmage or go for a more conservative caster with a ward save, maybe jewel of dusk, etc.? Should I abandon magic all-together for a prince and some commander combat punch? It just seems risky to throw T3 lords and heroes into combat, especially against other characters.

shadowprince
27-09-2005, 05:27
Then get some Shadow warriors as a missle screen for the pheonix guard otherwise against any shooting or magic army they are never going to see combat. And drop th all together

branchwrath
27-09-2005, 06:44
With the Book of Hoeth (if memory serves it's the one that makes all doubles IF correct?), your Arch Mage will probably shred half the approaching army...Flames of the Phoenix can tear units in half and Fury of Khaine as a bound spell is just plain disgusting...

So in other words...KEEP the Arch Mage!

Tiberius Frost
27-09-2005, 09:14
This list reminds me of exactly the way High Elves are supposed to play in the background. And it serves as a perfect example of a flaw in the current High Elf list (or potentially, the WHF game).

You've no shooting whatsoever. Against any large monster you will struggle cause any wounmds. You'll have to rely on magic, and fury of khaine requires a 6 to wound a T6 monster (Giant, dragon, etc). I play a similar list, but always field bolt throwers. I'd suggest dropping the Phoenix guard out entirely, fleshing out your other infantry units a bit and adding some war machines. They're incredibly useful.
Because all it takes is an unlucky double 1 and you lose your magic phase (usually). Also, Phoenix guard are T3, 5+ sv. They'll die very quickly to shooting, and they'll be difficult to manoever. You can always switch the banner of sorcery over to the Swordmasters.
I'd also suggest some shadow warriors (personal preference, but they're really useful) and/or maybe a small unit of ellyrion reavers, though your silver helms can probably do that job just as well.

This is a cool list (probably because it's similar to what I use, and I like my army list) but nobody will dispute that it'll be difficult to play with properly. You'll need to think seriously about your strategy right from deployment.

g0ddy
27-09-2005, 18:06
Chi, I never said there was anyting wrong with high elf spearmen :)
I was just trying to say... given the choice of targets they will almost always pick the phoenix guard.

The only way ive used a BSB so far is without a magic banner and wearing armour of the gods. If you really want to use the battle banner id suggest using him mounted to get a half decent armour save.

On the subject of fear, the models themselves that cause fear must outnumber the enemy to cuase autobreak.

For the record, when your talking about elves, just assume they are t3 with a crappy armour save and will die in droves to any type of range attack *cough* Tiberius ;)

- g0ddy

RetsorIII
27-09-2005, 23:31
There is also a banner you can take that gives you an extra D6 combat resolution? Ya... take that and place it in a spearmen regiment if you plan on them getting charged. You will really surprise the **** out of someone as their elite unit is broken by spearmen.

However, remember you have to take a BSB to take the Battle Banner (D6 to comabt res.) and by taking the Battle Banner you have a very vulnerable T3 Elf with little or nothing by way of protecting him against enemy combat attacks. Somewhat of a points sink if he gets it in the neck and any experienced player will know to go for the jugular in this situation. :eek:

Just a word of warning.......

RetsorIII.

clangerman
28-09-2005, 02:16
Or it might just become an expensice warbanner for a turn ;) way to fickle an item to be throwing in with high cost troops.

Strakar
30-09-2005, 02:57
Would it be legal to take a Commander BSB in a chariot with Lance, Heavy Armor, and Shield plus Loremaster and a Warbanner? Can he actually use the shield and attach the standard to the chariot, or does he still have to hold it technically?

Loremaster because 40 points for adding an extra dispel dice is a better value than a 35 point upgrade for a mage.

If it's legal, would it be a good idea?

Strakar
03-10-2005, 03:23
OK, I revised it to add even more infantry and dropping the PG until they prove useful. Didn't add any RBTs, but so many armies take warmachine hunters now, who knows how many shots they would get off.

Archmage Level 4-- Ring of Fury, Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll, Seer (350)

Commander-- Heavy Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Ring of Corin (115)
Commander-- Heavy Armor, Shield, Lance, Steed, Barding, Loremaster (137)

20 Spearmen-- St, M, War Banner (258)
20 Spearmen-- St, M (238)
14 Spearmen-- St, M (172) w/ ground commander
5 Silver Helms (115)
5 Silver Helms (115)

12 Swordmasters-- St, Banner of Sorcery (218)
5 Dragon Princes (130) w/ mounted commander

3 Great Eagles

Points: 1998
PD: 8 + d3
DD: 5 + 1 scroll

The major weakness is still big monsters, which I'll try to avoid all together or hit with a combined charge from the cavalry after softening it up with magic.

One commander is a mounted dice caddy, the other is admittedly built like a wet paper bag. But, I want to keep him cheap, give him the ring to add extra pressure to the magic phase, and keep him in a unit where I can dictate where he goes (keep him away from charges and tooled up heroes).

Eldacar
03-10-2005, 10:34
Archmage Level 4-- Ring of Fury, Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll, Seer (350)
Okay.


Commander-- Heavy Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Ring of Corin (115)
On this character, I would advise you to mount him and change the Great Weapon for a Lance. He is supposed to break on the charge, not let himself get bogged down in second-round combat. Since he doesn't have that much defence, second-round fighting is a bad idea.


Commander-- Heavy Armor, Shield, Lance, Steed, Barding, Loremaster (137)
Standard Dice Caddy setup.


20 Spearmen-- St, M, War Banner (258)
20 Spearmen-- St, M (238)
14 Spearmen-- St, M (172) w/ ground commander
5 Silver Helms (115)
5 Silver Helms (115)
Drop that second unit of Spearmen. It won't be doing much good, the Spearmen are better in units of 20, 24 or 25, or occasionally 16 or 18 if you're playing smaller battles. 14, even 15 with a commander, isn't enough. With the points you get from it, up those two SH units to 6 each, and get a chariot.


12 Swordmasters-- St, Banner of Sorcery (218)
5 Dragon Princes (130) w/ mounted commander
Swordmasters are okay, as far as it goes.

As for the Dragon Princes, I don't really think you'll be needing them. My advice is to drop them for a second chariot. Use the points you've accumulated to spare to get yourself another Eagle, to bring the total to four.

Other than that, what tactics are you planning on using with this army? How will each unit support each other? What roles do they all have?


Would it be legal to take a Commander BSB in a chariot with Lance, Heavy Armor, and Shield plus Loremaster and a Warbanner? Can he actually use the shield and attach the standard to the chariot, or does he still have to hold it technically?
He has to hold it.