PDA

View Full Version : empire war machine?s



levisthered
20-01-2008, 19:32
I am starting a dwarf army. but have also looked at the empire as well,i don't know much about them other than what i have read i like the large amount of variety in their army. and have heard the hellblaster volley gun is awsome. but the two i think are the coolest looking are the mortar and the hellstorm rockets, i haven't found anything said about these anywhere. are they not very good or what, i just like the idea of exploding shells impacting the ranks of your enemy more than solid iron shot.
well thanks
Levis

badgeraddict
20-01-2008, 19:38
I like the Rocket Battery it has awesome destructive power!

Yet at the moment, it likes going off course and killing my troops!

heh

Khorghan
20-01-2008, 19:38
The idea with the helstrom is its hard to get a good hit but when it does it is devastating!

Caboose123
20-01-2008, 20:21
The helstorm scatters as far as an artillery dice twice (correct me if im wrong) so veers off target a lot... However, it is extremely powewrful and a direct hit could best even the hellblaster!
The hellblaster can be excellent, but it rolls to hit nowadays, reducing its effectiveness by about a third! And with 3 artillery dice will misfire every 2 turns (on average)...

I dont like either TBH, i prefer sticking to the good old cannons and mortars!

Wolfmother
20-01-2008, 20:21
hellstorm rockets have got ridiculous chance f misfireing there funny!

zak
20-01-2008, 20:38
Stick with the Dwarf artillery. Maybe there not as lethal as the Empire machines, but they can be made far more effective. The Empire mortar and rocket battery have a good chance of scattering and hitting your own troops. You can discount the rocket battery after turn two if your playing a combat army as your just as likely to hit your own troops!Especially when you have as many troops as a usual Empire army.

badgeraddict
20-01-2008, 22:26
Stick with the Dwarf artillery. Maybe there not as lethal as the Empire machines, but they can be made far more effective. The Empire mortar and rocket battery have a good chance of scattering and hitting your own troops. You can discount the rocket battery after turn two if your playing a combat army as your just as likely to hit your own troops!Especially when you have as many troops as a usual Empire army.

Yeah true this sounds a bit like me! After you left I managed to blow up 12 of my spearmen with it. Would have been the best shot ever if it hadn't scattered 10" backward!

Crazy Harborc
21-01-2008, 02:07
I do well with the great cannon. I have done average with the Empire mortar. My luck with the rocket launcher has been les than average....so far.;)

I've been doing Dwarves for a few games. The artillery has done at least average. The best part is the shooters actually getting a saving roll for lowly crossbows and handgunners.

levisthered
21-01-2008, 02:14
does the mortar have a blast radius or something like that? the cannon balls can bounce through enemy ranks but can't explode correct???
thanks
Levis

freelancer
21-01-2008, 09:49
Yes the Morter has a blast radius, and no it does not bounce or anything like that.
The best description ive ever herd for the Helstorm is that it fires like a Cannon, hits like a Morter and kills like a Helblaster.
In my Empire army ive used both cannons and Helstorm, but i use the cannon more because its more verstial agaisnt monsters, chariots and large units.
Its all up to you make if you like the idea of psycotic Engineers and their wacky "creative" inventions then play Empire, if you like conservitive Dwarfs with flying machines play Dwarfs.

Freelancer

Crazy Harborc
22-01-2008, 00:20
I used a Helstrom Rocket Launcher today, a cannon and a Hellblaster today. The rocket launcher hit on target 3 times........Unfortunately, the bulls eye was NOT on a unit.:( The cannon took out the Dwarf Goblin Hewer. The blaster did as best as it can anymore (It IS to watered down now)

I LIKE the rocket launcher. Mine does not hit often but when it does.:evilgrin: Last time I got a hit on target on top of a unit......the launcher took our 15 minies......Evil Elves make great rocket catchers.:evilgrin:

der_lex
22-01-2008, 00:59
I love the Rocket Launcher as well, since it kind of ties my two armies (Tzeentch mortals and Empire) together, in that, like most Tzeentch spells, you never know what each shot might bring. It might end up doing absolutely nothing as it spirals off course, or it might end up landing smack dab on an opposing unit (usually not the one you were aiming at) and slaughtering it.

As far as the other war machines go...never used a mortar before, but since the Hellcannon is a mainstay in my Chaos army, I think I'd be less than impressed by its STR 3 blasts (used to D6 S10 wounds per model...ouch). Great Cannons are absolutely wonderful when you learn to aim with them properly, great for taking out big nasties, chariots and enemy characters. I didn't pick up empire until 7th ed, so I don't know how the old Helblaster played...but I don't think the new one's all that bad. It's done pretty well in the battles I've fielded it in, softening up all enemy units that approached along the flank where it was on. It's not a unit-killer anymore, but it has its uses.

Crazy Harborc
22-01-2008, 03:01
Practice estimating inches and rolling the artillery die(dice?) The trick (for me) is "guessing" what that number on the artillery die will be. I need some Ocean's 13 dice.;)

der_lex
22-01-2008, 03:45
I, I know how to aim my war machines...as most of my opponents will confirm with much regret ;)

But with the Hellstorm, the fact that there are two guess variables makes it just a tad bit more unpredictable...but all the more fun :D

Buckero0
22-01-2008, 15:27
but against a horde army, as long as you don't misfire, you're probably going to hit and kill stuff. Large template, str 5 is big and bad. Always subtract 6 from your guess, and you have a 1/3 chance of hitting square on the mark, otherwise you could drift 2-10inches (again, average of 6)
Helstrom rocks against ranked up units, esp. hordes. Hellblaster pretty much sucks these days as you have a good chance of misfiring and a really good chance of not hitting anything if the enemy has any skirmishers or screens. It probably does allright against ranked up units, but then what's the point, as it's price is about the same as 10 handgunners with champion and hochland rifle. The only use I see the hellblaster having is taking out heavily armored units (ie chaos or other empire and maybe dwarves if they move.)

Yade
22-01-2008, 19:22
The Empire's rare war machines are among the worst in the game, if you want to win. If you want to pay a lot of points and gamble on killing yourself off by all means take them.

The rocket launcher, designed by orks, bounecs and scatters. It hits near the target 1/3 of the time. It is as deadly to you as it is to your opponent.

The Hell blaster rolls 3 artillery dice and explodes on a 1 or a 2 or a 6 if misfired. Which means you have astronimically increased the odds of it blowing up. Not to mention you need to roll to hit with each shot taking into consideration all shooting modifiers. Sooo you hit on 4s, 5s at long range and 6's if they are in any terrain or skirmishes. In the end for 115 points you get a few shots off and die, you might kill something in the process.

In the case of both weapons people will regale you of great stories of success. I just have one thing to say about that. There is a lottery winner every day in the US, does that mean you should go spend all your money on lottery tickets? Neither weapon is worth taking, unless you are just scrweing around.

Dwarf weapons are far more expnsive and twice as deadly. They hit more often, they do the same damage, if not more. They can be made unbreakable and their attacks are MAGICAL. They can reroll almost every dice they roll and are a bigger bang for yor buck.

The Empire's strength is in its diversity. There are so many things you can do with them, but a gunline is not the best. The dwarves are staunch, and in my opinion fairly boring to play. Though it does not take much work for them to be very devastating.

The Dutchman
23-01-2008, 14:41
In the case of both weapons people will regale you of great stories of success. I just have one thing to say about that. There is a lottery winner every day in the US, does that mean you should go spend all your money on lottery tickets? Neither weapon is worth taking, unless you are just scrweing around.

Dwarf weapons are far more expnsive and twice as deadly. They hit more often, they do the same damage, if not more. They can be made unbreakable and their attacks are MAGICAL. They can reroll almost every dice they roll and are a bigger bang for yor buck.

While you are entitled to your own opinion, I don't agree with you. You are looking at the matter from a purely statistical point of view.

One can not predict dice rolls. You simply can't. It may be improbable that your 20 Chosen Warriors of Slaanesh will be defeated in combat by a flankattack from zombies. But not impossible: I have seen it happening.

You are also overlooking the psychological effect. If your opponent has seen your Hellstorm kill 20 troops in one go, he will be keen to either avoid it or destroy it. This can be used to your advantage. Putting a unit of handgunners and a Hellblaster on one flank will scare your opponent. Any troops he sends that way could be killed in one Shooting Phase. And meanwhile you can concentrate your other units on the remaining flank, and attack in force.

As for the Dwarfs, they don't do the same damage. Dwarf Cannons do D3 wounds instead of D6 (unless it has a Master Engineer). The Grudge Thrower has S4, but uses the 3 inch template: the Empire Mortar uses the 5 inch template. The Organ Gun can only do an Artillery Dice worth of hits. True, these are hits. But the Hellblaster has the POTENTIAL to do 30 hits. It is unlikely, but it the possiblity is there. And those magical effects you are talking about are Engineering Runes. Not only do they have their own cost, but there are restrictions on them. You cannot place more than three runes on a warmachine, you cannot have two warmachines with the same rune (combination), and the Rare warmachines can't take runes entirely.

As for blackpowder Dwarfs being boring to play, virtually every army has a way of dealing with gunlines. Beasts of Chaos, Ogre Kingdoms, Dwarfs, Skaven, Vampire Counts and Tomb Kingdoms all have units capable of appearing behind your precious warmachines and missile troops. Lizardmen, Bretonnians and Skaven (again) have special rules and items which means the only thing you will be hiting is the ground. Chaos Warriors with shields are only 15 pt, and have M 4, 4+/3+ A save and can reroll Psychology (that includes Panic) checks. All Elven armies have a higher BS than you, and have awesome magic. Orcs and Goblins can swamp you in green bodies. And as you said so yourself, Empire armies have a wide diversity.

There is more to wargaming than statistics and a excessive amount of firepower. It is called strategy.

Yade
23-01-2008, 16:25
As a very experienced player with both Dwarves and Empire I am not just playing statistics.

Dwarves are powerful and the Empire gunline is not. The dwarf cannon should always have an engineer on it and the stone thrower can be made str 5. The war machines are significantly more powerful and reliable than the Empire ones. Its like comparing a tank to a honda.

No real player is going to restructure their entire game plan for either of those war machines; the hellblaster or the rocket battery. In fact I consider them free points and a gift from my opponent.

Responding to the original poster. Empire cannons are a good thing if you practice your guess ranges like another poster suggested. Dwarves are by far more powerful in the shooting category than the Empire.

There is no questioning that the Empire is more vast and diverse. Dwarves can be very boring.

If you like playing Orky and quirky armies take the Empire rares. If you want to win, DONT.

:)

The Dutchman
24-01-2008, 15:40
I assumed that you had little knowledge about the Empire and Dwarfs. In that I was apparently wrong, so I apologize for that.

On the other hand, your argument has a few faults. First of all: what's with the smiley? Are you being sarcastic? Was it a mistake? Or do you think I am some 14-year old jack-ass noob who believes he knows it all?

Secondly, Empire is powerfull, Dwarves is reliable. Yes, you can add runes and engineers to transform your warmachines into engines of destruction. But if you need to add upgrades to a warmachine for it to become powerfull then it isn't powerfull. A Dwarven Cannon with an Master Engineer (to get D6 wounds) is 160 pt, and that is without any other upgrades for the cannon or engineer. A Empire Cannon is 100 pt; less than two-thirds of the cost and without taking up a Hero slot.

Thirdly, the Empire Rares have a psychological effect. Perhaps your opponents are different than mine (a small gamingclub of 8-12 people), but they usualy react differently to a Hellblaster than to a Cannon. I'm not saying they are going to spend the entire battle blasting it back to Altdorf. But it is going to influence parts of their plan.
Sending your Chosen Chaos Knights down the flank with the Hellblaster and Handgunners doesn't seem like a good idea to me: especially because their are at most 300 Victory points to be made there (Hellblaster: 110, 10 vanila Handgunners: 80, table quarter: 100).
An Orc horde army will dread the Hellstorm, because there will be few places where no greenskins are deployed and it wounds on 3+. Hence, any magic missiles will probably go to the Hellstorm.

Your opponents simply cannot risk the chance that you roll bad: whenever you make a tactical descision, one must anticipate that some spells/missiles/combats might not go his way and act accordingly.

But back to the situation at hand. levisthered, in my experience the Empire is more powerfull for fewer cost, but the Dwarves are the best choice if you want reliability.

Yade
24-01-2008, 15:53
The smiley I normaly use toaffirm that I am in fact being nice when I post and that there is no angry intention.

Anyway. Yes the dwarven war machines are more expensive. However you are comparing a dwarf cannon to an Empire cannon and up until this point we have not been talking about thir cannons. I think the Empire cannon is worth taking. Only one though because the special slots are few and there are too many good things in there that you must have like pistoliers etc...

My dwarf cannons normally run 165 points without the master Engineer and with him theya re closer to 300 points. They are devastating and normally take more than that with them in both shooting and in close combat. For 45 points I can have the cannon unbreakable and the engineer has a 1+ save and the entire cannon is in heavy cover; meaning no charge effects.

Tooled out I un 3 dwarf war machines and 2 master engineers, and no Empire gunline will ever compete with their efficacy

Empire is diverse, three of the "best units of all time" according to GW, and I concur, were Empire units. Pistoliers, Bronzino's Galloper Guns and the Great cannon.

Gazak Blacktoof
25-01-2008, 11:18
At 300 points a pop its worth the empire player lining up his big guns to shoot at yours though. Even if he loses his cannons to return fire eventually he's on a pretty much even footing for a greatly reduced cost.

Except against steam tanks/ monsters do you ever get your 300 points back?**


** This is obviously difficult to judge because a stripped rank can win you the combat.

Kerill
25-01-2008, 15:31
As a chaos player I fear the empire war machines more. D6 wound cannons really affects the choices I make. D3 wound cannons are far more meh.

The best dwarf machine is probably the suped up Bs4 S7 bolt throwers. Dwarven machines are also harder to take down reliably.

Also in a vs match empire cannon gunline could destroy the dwarven artillery far easier than the reverse.

The hellblaster is still fearsome and can be further boosted by prayers and magic (lore of heavens default spell).

Yade
28-01-2008, 16:25
As a chaos player I fear the empire war machines more. D6 wound cannons really affects the choices I make. D3 wound cannons are far more meh.

The best dwarf machine is probably the suped up Bs4 S7 bolt throwers. Dwarven machines are also harder to take down reliably.

Also in a vs match empire cannon gunline could destroy the dwarven artillery far easier than the reverse.

The hellblaster is still fearsome and can be further boosted by prayers and magic (lore of heavens default spell).

Other than the Empire cannon the dwarves have nothing to fear. And remember that any self respecting dwarf player takes at least one master engineer if not just to make that cannon do d6 wounds and make it unstoppable in close combat if necessary.

rugratrik
22-02-2008, 22:56
I think the great cannon is by far better than a dwarf canon, with or without the master engineer. It seems that you are forgetting that Empire also has got master engineers, and that reroll that he may or may not use boosts his reliability (I know I have rescued my crew more than once because of that). Also, the difference in range is enormous, I mean, come on... A canon that can shoot across the entire table, and then some more, with d6 s10 hits?! If he is set out of range for the dwarf canon, I wonder who will win...

Also, a quick question: what are the exact rules for the helstorm? I am wondering whether to take a Helstorm of Hellblaster, what do you guys think?

zak
23-02-2008, 00:09
The Dwarf warmachines are more reliable and cheaper to make reliable. A master engineer for the Empire army is IMHO a wasted character slot. The same cannot be said for the Dwarf version. If your looking at psychological effect then take the almost forgotten (on this thread) flame cannon. Against even high leadership armies this is awesome. Cause one casualty and watch the enemy run! In both games I have used this it has caused absolute terror among my opponents.
I also agree with the poster who brought up the s7 bolt thrower with engineer. Hit on a 3 at close range (2's with a ME), auto kill chariots, no guess work (other than the max range) and no misfire. I've taken out more than one cannon with this combo.