PDA

View Full Version : Tzeentch cheese



BozzyB
26-09-2005, 08:52
Well I'm sure this will get me some nasty comments of some sort, but I thought I'd give it ago anyway.

After thinking about what my next fantasy army would be, a thought occured to me (I know, I was shocked too!)

Since I have such a small budget I wondered what was a relativley cheap (as none of the actually are cheap, thanks GW) army. I figured if I take a super expensive lord, and a few expensive elite troops, it woudl cost me less money. And the most expensive lord I could think of was Tzeentch llord, on a chaos dragon. Now this guy quite often gets cries of "cheese", escpecially with the golden eye of tzeentch.

Me being an idiot and all, I've decided to make the cheesiest (and hopefully
cheapest) tzeench army.

This is where I need warseers help. I've never made a really minimum sized, magic heavy army before, and so i consult you, my fellow warseers.


I was thinking Tzeentch lord with; blade of blood, enchanted sheild, golden eye, chaos dragon and a great weapon, just in case. (791pts)

I want to include the tzeentch character on foot (i love the model) and at least 1 unit of chaos warriors)

Now if anyone out there could help me come up with a pretty cheap (money wise) tzeentch army, I'd be very greatful.

Edit: My main opponent plays O&G, so everything cant be really expenisve due to fanatics. Maybe some warhounds (though they're expensive) or possibly marauder horsemen. (if someone can point me in the direction of plastic legs, so i can combine them with horses and the marauder sprue)



BozzyB

RdDragon5
30-09-2005, 15:13
A really expensive points wise, and magic heavy list? Sounds more like a lizardmen list to me. Slann plus temple guard can easily cost somewhere in the 1200 point range. That plus a few skink squads equals minamum number of models, and maximum cheese.
Just my 2 cents.

Brother Edwin
30-09-2005, 17:46
You could take a tzentch lord on dragon with staff of tzentch and golden eye, then chariots. I dont think it is very good but people say it is.

Cheesejoff
30-09-2005, 18:46
^ The Tzeentch chariot cheese list o'doom can be powerful agains some armies, particularly combat armies like other CHaos armies, but gets destroyed by massed artillery fire.

BozzyB
30-09-2005, 22:14
I was actually thinking recently about doing the tzeentch-chariot army of doom.

but I'm still rather undecided about how to arm my lord. Do I go with


1- Enchanted sheild, golden eye of tzeentch blade of blood.

The very likely event of extra wounds really bost this characters survivial ability. Because, lets face it, he will be a target and with 3 only 3 wounds, he isn't that hard to kill. So the possibility of 6 wounds with a pretty decent armour save mak ehim pretty resilient.

or


2- staff of change, golden eye of tzeentch

The staff just seems like an awesome weapon, but the 3 wounds, make it seem like he'd be (well sort of) easy to kill. One lucky bolt thrower or cannon and that's it. Whereas if he had 4+ wounds he would have a very good chance of surviving that lucky hit.


So which do I go for?





BozzyB

Brother Edwin
01-10-2005, 19:01
^ The Tzeentch chariot cheese list o'doom can be powerful agains some armies, particularly combat armies like other CHaos armies, but gets destroyed by massed artillery fire.

I would of thought it was the opposit, the dragon with a 3+ ward save destroys shooty armys where the chariots lose to combat armys because they are out done.

Trust me the staff of tzentch and golden eye are re-nownd for being the power choice. As lond as you have this tzentch lord on dragon it dosent matter what else is in the army.

Wintersdark
01-10-2005, 19:35
You could take a tzentch lord on dragon with staff of tzentch and golden eye, then chariots. I dont think it is very good but people say it is.

It's a predestined game sort of thing, like most chariot armies. Depending on your opponents army, you'll either kick his ass or have yours handed to you, tactics have little say in it (unless your horribly bad and he's very good, or vice versa)

Either way, it's not a fun game.

Now, take a couple chariots, but grab some warriors and marauders cav as well. They'll fill up points fast and are realatively inexpensive, and won't **** people off like the already cheesy character leading and equally cheesy army.

BozzyB
01-10-2005, 21:54
well I've decided for the tzeentch army of doom. Not exactly sure what these are, as I've never actually seen one, but my personnal preference is 3 chariots, 1 chariot with battle standard bearer, exhalted champ. in a chariot, 2 units of 5 marauder horsemen and a lord on a dragon.

The Standard bearer will probably get dropped to make way for an extra chariot and some more horsemen.

But I'm still undecided about what magic item combo for the lord. -though currently I'm more inclined towards the blade of blood, enchanted sheild and golden eye combo at the moment- though, I'd still like warseers input.





BozzyB

Neknoh
02-10-2005, 07:29
Well... I would go for the following:

Lord of Tzeentch, Chaos Dragon, Greatweapon, Shield, Golden Eye of Tzeentch, Staff of Change... 814 pts

Exalted Champion of Tzeentch, Greatweapon, Shield, Spell Familliar, Armour of Damnation, rides in a Chariot of Tzeentch... 361 pts

Exalted Champion of Tzeentch, Greatweapon, Shield, Power Familliar, Rides in a Chariot of Tzeentch... 366 pts

Chariot of Tzeentch... 140 pts

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, Lightarmour, Greatweapon... 306 pts

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, Lightarmour, Greatweapon... 306 pts

Pts total: 2293 pts, legal in 2300 pts battles.

To use it in 2250 pts, simply cut the Power Familliar.

Total number of models... 6

Total number of models needed to be bought:

6-11

Neknoh
02-10-2005, 07:30
Oh, almost forgot... total number of Terror Causers... 3

Total ammount of Power Dice... 12

Total number of Spells... 9

Number of Dispell Dice... 6

Festus
02-10-2005, 07:51
Hi

That won't work, I am afraid, as a chariot used for a character is part of that character as a mount, and chosen as part of his entry and doesn't constitute a core unit anymore...

Greetings
festus

Neknoh
02-10-2005, 09:04
No, a character riding a chariot takes his chariot from the Core selection and thus it counts as a mount

Cheesejoff
02-10-2005, 10:06
I think you can roughly get a 2k list like this, Lord on Drag, 3+ ward, 3 exalted champions, 5 or so chariots. That can take out any shootiness with the dragon, wreak havoc with the power dice (20+ or so) and decimate things in CC, considering the two exalted champs get 8 WS6 S7 attacks, with 2d6 S5 impact hits.....

Brother Edwin
02-10-2005, 11:56
I have never understood the idea behind the 6-8 model Tzentchh army. My Empire army with 3 Cannons, a Volley Gun, a Steam Tank with Volley Gun, a Mortar, 60 Handgunners, loads of magic and as many Knights as you can cram in will have a field day. The Chariots wont survive the Cannonballs, the exalted champions will get wasted by volley guns, and you can always flee chages against that Dragon...and then shoot him next turn. Sure, you have great magic, but against 7 Dispel Dice and 4 Scrolls you wont be getting anything important off. And once I have dealt with the Chariots and Exalted Champions, I will come after the Dragon. I dont care how good that ward save is, you wont survive lots of handgun shots and 3 Cannons backed up by Volley Guns. That Dragon will be dead, and your lord will be standing in front of lots of guns and magic, ready to gt blasted to hell.

Van Horstmans Spectulum could ruin your day as well.

Even with the speculum the dragon will still rip the wizzard appart or auto break him, then after you level 4 is gone he can start destroying the rest of your army.

Brother Edwin
02-10-2005, 12:26
But this is assuming I let him get into combat. I could just flee the unit he charges off the board, and then cannonball and magic him to hell next turn. I should be able to kill the Dragon at least, and then the turn after that the lord is facing 50+ handgunner shots, 3 Cannons and 2 Volley Guns to the face. Good luck surviving that...

So you flee off the board with your Lv 4 mage, exelent.

Why would you have those shots? I thought you said you would be shooting at the chariots?

Festus
02-10-2005, 12:58
Hi

No, a character riding a chariot takes his chariot from the Core selection and thus it counts as a mount
What are you talking, mate?

A mortal character can choose a chariot from the mortal troops section of the list as a mount.
This is in the character's options.

It is not a core unit that will count for for yor core requirements, as there is no unit to begin with, just a character with his chosen mount.

If you do not believe me (as I am afraid you will), reread the character's entries in the HoC book.

Festus

Brother Edwin
02-10-2005, 13:21
You cant always rely on being able to deploy on the baseline due to terrain blocking your sight. Plus you cant always rely on getting your shots.

I agre your plan works if it is a open battle field. And I also think the suggested list is quite weak, if it was my chaos list I would make sure the entire army consisted of things which could assalt turn 2.

Also with 50 handgunners I doupt you will have much room for knights, in my empire list which is almost exactly the same as yours I can only afford 10 handgunners with 2 small units of knights.

Reinnon
02-10-2005, 13:28
While a cool idea, i'm not really a fan of the chariot based tzeentch idea.

its a good army against some targets, but as the empire player above says, it won't work against others.

however, a gunline has this precise problem too :)

Instead, i go for a combo, chariots and ranked units to gain a magic heavy army that is still relaible in the close combat phase.

here is my suggested force:

Lord with staff of change and maybe a power stone, unmounted

Asp champion with battle banner and pair of dispel scrolls

ASp champion with 2 dispel scrolls, great weapon and mounted on horse

a few units of 16 marunders amred with shields or with great weapons

2-3 chariots of tzeentch

a unit of chosen knights (tzeentch)

1 unit of horsemen (i like fast cav)

several units of hounds (duh)

2 hot pots (my personal fav DoW unit :))

now, that should be around 2000-2500 points, and you gain around 14 power dice and still have a few ranked up units. With the battle standard hopefully you can gain some realibility on the morale lvl.

You could add a few more chars to increase magic potential, the hot pots are there because they are cheap and ignore armour saves.

leeoaks
02-10-2005, 15:42
gunlines with wizards and no engineers....wow balanced and fluffy list you have there not to mention not fun in the slightest to play against.....bet you take off all the terrain before you play a game against someone and whack hills on the board edge....your gunline is weak against certain amies too....i would advise you pick a balanced list for all comers, and enjoy the game and not be one of the sad few who only enjoy crushing your opponent without playing the game!

Ganymede
02-10-2005, 16:15
My best advicre would be to pick an army that is NOT a SoC list. High and Wood Elf armies are fairly cheap to raise, lizardmen too.

The last thing you want is an army composed exclusively of metal figures, and figures that must be bit ordered at exorbitant prices and with extensive conversion.

BozzyB
02-10-2005, 16:55
We'll I've already got a 2500pt. lizardman army, copmprised of most plastic saurus, some skinks and some cold ones, so it was fairly cheap!

I really like the idea of the chariot army, and on Saturday (yesterday) I orderd parts for 3 chariots, Daemonic leagion style (a screamer pulling a disc) although i have no idea what to use for the crew. As i just dont think the new chaos warriors will look dynamic enough, the old chaos warriors look, well, goofy, and deamons would make the chariots the daemonic legion chariots.

I really hate the chaos chariot model, so I opted for something different, which explains the disc chariots. I'll obviously explain to my opponent before hand that they're just normal chariots.

My current idea for a list looks something like this-

Chaos Lord- MoT, dragon, Blade of blood, Golden eye of tzeentch,
great weapon, enchanted sheild- 791

Exalted Champ.- MoT, great weapon, sheild, talisman of protection,
sword of might, chariot of tzeentch 351
5 marauder horsemen 65
5 marauder horsemen 65
5x Chariots- Mot 700

Total- 1972


That still eaves some points left over. I was also thinking maybe drop a chariot, and stick an Aspiring champ. with the mark of tzeentch in a chariot, and if I can shave off some points (which I'm sure I can) he could carry the battle-standard.

The marauder horsemen, however, are a must in the list, as my most common oponent will have 6 fanatics with him. So its the marauders job to lure them out, the lucky guys.

So what do ya'll think of that list?





BozzyB

Neknoh
02-10-2005, 17:00
If the Chariots does not count towards minimum Core, simply field the guys on foot and run next to the chariots, same effect, only a bit more dangerous due to lack of Armour

Brother Edwin
02-10-2005, 18:28
gunlines with wizards and no engineers....wow balanced and fluffy list you have there not to mention not fun in the slightest to play against.....bet you take off all the terrain before you play a game against someone and whack hills on the board edge....your gunline is weak against certain amies too....i would advise you pick a balanced list for all comers, and enjoy the game and not be one of the sad few who only enjoy crushing your opponent without playing the game!

It is balanced.

It has shooting, magic and combat.

However I will agre it is one of the most brain dead armys to use. I would like to see the same player use a army like beastmen or dark elves.

leeoaks
02-10-2005, 23:44
It is balanced. this does not make it balanced....fluff comes into it imo

Reinnon
03-10-2005, 17:02
Who cares about background anyway? You should build an army which can slaughter your opponant, not take lots of rubbish units because they fit the theme. If you have a theme and like building your army around that fine, but dont start whinging when someone builds an army desinged to win and beats you.

And my opponants all field nasty armies from the other army books such as the Skaven SAD and the Bretonnian all Knight Horde. So my army is just as nasty as theirs is, and we all have fun playing each other, but we all play to win.

fair enough, i might not agree with you but thats fine.

if you really want a cheesy magic based chaos army you can't go wrong with a slannesh magic heavy army (with tzeentch chariots), i've seen that used and it is almost as bad a tzeentch, you just can't get the staff

Ganymede
03-10-2005, 18:03
I may be old school, but I learned that skill was something completely independent on list design. Call me crazy, but I am not the type to believe that if one plays RAF, or SAD or Tzentch cheese, then their list makes them a good player. If anything, one could consider those builds as crutches.

Wintersdark
03-10-2005, 22:20
Slaaneshi magic is *FAR* superious to Tzeentch magic too, IMHO - it's worth giving up the staff for.

BozzyB
04-10-2005, 19:00
Yeah, only, you're missing the point. It's not actually the magic, I want, It's the fact that the heros are super expensive (meaning less models to buy, meaning more money saved) and the fact that I can get that lovely Golden Eye

And no-ones got back to me on my magic item combo!





BozzyB

leeoaks
04-10-2005, 23:06
Who cares about background anyway? You should build an army which can slaughter your opponant, not take lots of rubbish units because they fit the theme. If you have a theme and like building your army around that fine, but dont start whinging when someone builds an army desinged to win and beats you.

not bothered if i lose to some snotty nosed, under developed power hungry sad player, its just that the game is about background and about wargaming on every level....you cannot do this if your force is a one trick pony bit of crap! and i play to win....in fact beat 5 armies today with my kislev themed Dow army....not only was i playing tournament armies but in fact beat the last but one slayer day winner....

i have won tournies and never once scored less than full marks on both sportsmanship and army comp!
if i get out played i'd take my hat off to my opponent, not winge!0

so i think you should speak with more respect and less attitude!

also with that attitude i'd almost bet on my army being better painted, sculpted and converted!

Reinnon
05-10-2005, 15:26
Yeah, only, you're missing the point. It's not actually the magic, I want, It's the fact that the heros are super expensive (meaning less models to buy, meaning more money saved) and the fact that I can get that lovely Golden Eye

And no-ones got back to me on my magic item combo!





BozzyB

erm.....why play tzeentch then if you don't like magic?

just go bret, get a grail shield, mount him on a hippogriph and go for a RaF force, the same (slightly better actually) then the eye.

BozzyB
05-10-2005, 17:03
It's not that I don't like magic. It's just that magic wasn't one of the main reasons for choosing tzeentch.

And besides I really don't like bretonnians for some reason.

leeoaks
05-10-2005, 18:18
It's not that I don't like magic. It's just that magic wasn't one of the main reasons for choosing tzeentch.

i think everyone has gone crazy!

Wintersdark
05-10-2005, 20:46
It's not that I don't like magic. It's just that magic wasn't one of the main reasons for choosing tzeentch.


Errrr, you're chosing Tzeentch because of a silly magic item combo? Keep in mind that other chaos lists have the same priced models all around (In fact, Slaaneshi units cost slightly more points as their mark costs more), can use the same characters, etc... you just want to play a Tzeentch army because it's got a cheesier magic item combo?

*boggle*

Reinnon
05-10-2005, 21:01
It's not that I don't like magic. It's just that magic wasn't one of the main reasons for choosing tzeentch.

And besides I really don't like bretonnians for some reason.

theres another reason for choosing tzeentch apart from magic?

<-----confused

the magic item combo isn't that good you know, if you want really expensive chars why not go ogres? Few models to paint

amagi
31-10-2005, 03:21
Right, lets say that the tzentchh player gets first turn.

I always deploy on the baseline.

So he moves his chariots and dragon up the field. Assuming he deployed the furthest forward he could the dragon is going to be 16 inches from me and the chariots are going to be 29 inches away.

Now in my turn, I shoot those chariots to pieces. Now the Exalted Champions are out in the open, maybe some have taken wounds. Ultimately, they are going to get nailed very soon.

In the Chaos players turn, dragon charges me, I flee off the board. Heroes move up 8 inches, so they are 21 inches from me.

In my turn, I turn 2 Volley Guns, 50 Handgunners, 3 lv 2 wizards, 3 Cannons and a mortar on the dragon/lord combo. This should be enough to kill the dragon.Um, that's some amazing targetting there, since the dragon is off the board after your level 4 wizard general who just committed suicide instead of deploying intelligently. If the dragon was 16 inches away from you, and you're at the edge of the board.....news flash--flyers still go 20" on a failed charge. Do the math.
News flash number two--dragons can't reliably charge head on against normal ranked infantry units, since they usually have to cause at least 6 wounds just to win by 1. If you had some normal units you wouldn't have to run away screaming. Even if your units aren't deployed in lots of ranks, you'll probably still only be losing combat by 3 or 4. Since the Dragon's going to follow you off the board anyway when you insist on voluntarily jumping off the table edge, you're better off trying to hold, and getting a stand and shoot to boot.


In his turn he charges another unit of handgunners with his lord. I flee off the board again.
...
In his turn he charges another unit of handgunners. I flee off the board again. So at this moment I have lost a lv 4 mage, and 3 units of handgunners.I've heard of attrition but....this is ridiculous and pointless. I'd be highly amused if my opponent just kept running off the board every time I made threatening gestures at him.


He has lost his entire army bar the lord.Maybe, but then these are both stupid armies. Against a whole lot of decent general-purpose lists they'll both lose.

Sanjuro
31-10-2005, 07:30
theres another reason for choosing tzeentch apart from magic?


There is always background, at least theoretically. Though background is firmly dead these days, which I am convinced of after the last tourney I went to.

I actually did choose Tzeentch due to background reasons, but I naturally wound up with 12+ power dice lists. After a few years, it became painfully obvious how extremely uneffective Tzeentch magic is compared to other magic-heavy lists in the game (I was regularly owned in magic by O&G, VC and skaven lists, all with less power dice than myself).

So these days, I tend to run an Undivided list with some Tzeentch flavouring mixed in.

But really, people don't give a **** about background these days. My first opponent at my last tourney brought a Tzeentch/Nurgle Cavalry-heavy list with a Hellcannon. I would never dream of mixing Tzeentch with Nurgle, mainly due to them being diametrically opposed to each other and have been so for as long as Chaos has had a real background. He said it was just for effectiveness - he wanted screamers and he also wanted the -1 to hit from a nurgling base.

amagi
31-10-2005, 07:53
Oh the evil bastard.
What a puny little unimaginative mind he must have. Tzeentch...and Nurgle...together!!!! Oh the horror.

Sorry, but I don't agree with the role-playing elitism so common on these boards. It's all well and good that you enjoy the story side of the game. I do too.
But to suggest that there's something inherently wrong with deviating from someone's idea of fluff-consistency is nonsense.
Some of us enjoy the mechanics of this strategy game we call Warhammer. If we wanted to just play with fantasy action figures and forget about that whole vulgar competitive aspect of gaming, then we probably wouldn't be on a Tactics forum right now.

Furthermore, the widespread attitude of condescending self-righteousness among the fluff-elitists is not evidence of their superior imaginations. Quite the contrary.

Of course, all the fluff purists out there will furiously conclude that I'm totally against any kind of thematic aspect to the game or that I'm just too dense to appreciate the rewards of a richly-constructed fantasy setting.

Whatever. I just wish people would stop moaning so much about these rampaging, barbaric "power-gamers" that have ruined this once-pristine, light-hearted niche hobby with their crass ideas about "winning."

What I find amusing is the fact that the people who insist the most that they are so wrapped up in the fluff that they care not at all about winning or losing will whine the loudest at the slightest perceived hint of "cheese." Suddenly they are being oppressed because they have a smaller chance--of winning. Hmmmm.

blurred
31-10-2005, 08:07
Seems that nowadays most people play Warhammer like MtG. They either think the craziest combo and then build an army around it (Tzeentch eye-staff-dragon-thingy) or they decide to invest most of the army's points in shooting and magic (empire gunline, skaven SAD). Games with these armies tend to be stupid dice rolling competitions. Being a good general has very little impact on these games and thus it should tell something about the players of such armies.

Sorry for the rant, but my friends were in a major Finnish tournament few weeks ago and there were at least 20 Tzeentch you-know-what armies in there. Oh my, they had sooo much fun in there.


theres another reason for choosing tzeentch apart from magic?

I chose my Tzeentch army because blue, purple and white beastmen look like real badass mofos :D. IMHO magic is the second most boring phase in WHFB (shooting being the first).


What I find amusing is the fact that the people who insist the most that they are so wrapped up in the fluff that they care not at all about winning or losing will whine the loudest at the slightest perceived hint of "cheese." Suddenly they are being oppressed because they have a smaller chance--of winning.

I don't mind losing, but losing because the other guy rolled the dice better than me = :rolleyes:

amagi
31-10-2005, 08:20
Well, I think most complaints of powergaming are overblown, but certainly there are a small handful of combinations that are too strong for their cost.
And certainly some army types involve less strategy than others and are therefore usually less fun.
That's not really what I was going on about though. My point is that to claim that a player is inherently committing some kind of gaming sin by taking an army because it's effective despite not fitting someone's idea of fluff consistency is nonsense.
I'm all for themed armies, just don't insist that you're better than other players who don't always take a thematically pure army.

Besides, I happen to think that Chaos, being chaotic, can be mixed up in any combination and still make sense.

Sanjuro
31-10-2005, 13:18
Oh the evil bastard.
What a puny little unimaginative mind he must have. Tzeentch...and Nurgle...together!!!! Oh the horror.


Never considered myself an elitist, but maybe I've reached that stage now. Had I known in the beginning that it would go this far... ;)

To be fair, it's not just one persons idea of fluff - Nurgle and Tzeentch are kind of like oil and water and have pretty much always been so. But I think I must have given off a wrong impression of my view on backstory and 'fluff' in my post, judging from your fire and brimstone reply.

I'm the first one to salute original and unorthodox takes on fluff and army background - I went to that tourney with a unit of 'chaos dwarves' in my Chaos army (DoW dwarf warriors with suitable conversions). You know, a nod towards the old 3rd ed version of chaos. That, and I find them actually more points-effective in an infantry-based list than chaos warriors. So there you have it - fluff and effectiveness in the same package! That, and I haven't really seen it done more than a few times (on the web), and I get lots of raised eyebrows whenever I field that unit, so I would guess it is a pretty unorthodox thing to do.

My opinion is that there are very few things that would never happen on a Warhammer battlefield. All is fair, but certain things are more 'iffy' than others, from a backstory perspective. For example, mixing just the most effective bits from Nurgle and Tzeentch.

But I salute the guy for his sense of effectiveness. I was completely crushed (which you might have guessed from my bitter tone ;) ) by his army. No, scratch that - I was completely crushed by the player. He was a much better tactician than I. That, and a soft army has no place at a serious tourney (I can vouch for that - ouch!).

However, I was just making an observation. The hobby and hobbyists now are much more geared towards tournament gaming (in fact, you might say that it is tournament-style gaming that dictates this hobby today) now than in older incarnations of the game. And in tournaments, background has no real place. Therefore, background today has a very reduced place in our hobby. Just look at the army books of today (the main source of fluff for most hobbyists) and compare them to older books. Much less fluff, is the first thing that strikes you. (also much less cheese, but that is another thing entirely - cheese and fluff can exist together ;) )

amagi
31-10-2005, 18:13
Don't get me wrong, I'm usually much happier if my army has some kind of theme to it. And I am far more interested in Warhammer because I like the fantasy setting and the races, stories, etc. I just get riled up when people come down on anyone who doesn't have the same level of devotion to fluff as some.

And if they would just get their act together and start publishing a decent amount of fluff again in the books, then I'd have no problem at all with purely-competitive tournament gaming. I'm not sure that this is actually contributing in any way to the designers' deficiencies though. I've seen no evidence that the makers of the army books are pandering to tournament players.

Wintersdark
31-10-2005, 20:45
Don't get me wrong, I'm usually much happier if my army has some kind of theme to it. And I am far more interested in Warhammer because I like the fantasy setting and the races, stories, etc. I just get riled up when people come down on anyone who doesn't have the same level of devotion to fluff as some.

And if they would just get their act together and start publishing a decent amount of fluff again in the books, then I'd have no problem at all with purely-competitive tournament gaming. I'm not sure that this is actually contributing in any way to the designers' deficiencies though. I've seen no evidence that the makers of the army books are pandering to tournament players.

Agreed 100%. I've certainly don't see how army book writers are somehow biased to tournament players...? I'd love more fluff as well, but am fine without it.

People do like to find anything they can to hold themselves above other people, and it's sad. People shouldn't look down on others simply because they enjoy different aspects of the hobby.

Reinnon
01-11-2005, 08:57
my point was that choosing tzeentch because of a dragon combo isn't the reason imo you should go for tzeentch.

With tzeentch the fluffy way to play is with magic.

I admit, i'm a bit of a fluff head so i could never do a nurgle/tzeentch army and i would complain if someone did it but thats just me....imo making an effective army can be done go going pure nurgle or pure tzeentch and pure armies look better on the table.

Still, i wouldn't refuse to play such an army, i just couldn't bring myself to do one

Sanjuro
01-11-2005, 15:02
I've seen no evidence that the makers of the army books are pandering to tournament players.

Well, the 'evidence' is the books themselves. Studying army books of different generations, there is certainly a trend of moving away from background and fluff and towards a more hands-on, gameist's approach to building the armies. Most background is also simplified and dumbed down so as not to 'get in the way' so to speak.

I don't think there is any question that the hobby is nowadays more geared towards tournament style play than before. Grand Tournaments and independent tournaments are huge affairs and they are growing for every year. Compare that to the innocence in most older material. There is a WD batrep compilation from 4th ed called 'Chronicles of war' - the tone in that book pretty much encompasses what I want the hobby to be about.

But this is OT. What got us here was, interestingly enough, the fact that Tzeentch doesn't play according to current background at all (masters of magic and all that jazz). Slaanesh magic is so many times more effective than Tzeentch magic that a comparison is not even justified. It would be unfair to Tzeentch magic to be compared to the superb Slaanesh magic (a better, and more fair, comparison would be Tzeentch vs. Nurgle).

So magic isn't really a factor at all when choosing Tzeentch. I mainly went for background and the very bizzare, alien look that most Tzeentch models has. It personifies Chaos very well in my opinion.

Scactha
02-11-2005, 10:26
Seems that nowadays most people play Warhammer like MtG. They either think the craziest combo and then build an army around it (Tzeentch eye-staff-dragon-thingy) or they decide to invest most of the army's points in shooting and magic (empire gunline, skaven SAD). Games with these armies tend to be stupid dice rolling competitions. Being a good general has very little impact on these games and thus it should tell something about the players of such armies.

Sorry for the rant, but my friends were in a major finnish tournament few weeks ago and there were at least 20 Tzeentch you-know-what armies in there. Oh my, they had sooo much fun in there.
Itīs the other way around friend. The Finns and Poles insist powergaming but at the latest UK GT the players voted with their feet against the cheesefest. Notice how everyone loved the Dutch GT which had restrictions enough to create a good and fun tourny. The rest can can continue to play crutchhammer in their basements and good riddance.

blurred
02-11-2005, 10:44
Itīs the other way around friend. The Finns and Poles insist powergaming but at the latest UK GT the players voted with their feet against the cheesefest. Notice how everyone loved the Dutch GT which had restrictions enough to create a good and fun tourny. The rest can can continue to play crutchhammer in their basements and good riddance.

Uhh...what is the other way around? I just said that according to major Finnish tournaments we have a powergame problem here. The dutch seem to have a much healthier attitude towards the game.

Scactha
03-11-2005, 06:40
Uhh...what is the other way around? I just said that according to major Finnish tournaments we have a powergame problem here. The dutch seem to have a much healthier attitude towards the game.
That most of the WFB world is leaning towards some sort of compsystem and the bastions of WAAC powergaming no-comp are getting fewer and fewer.

blurred
03-11-2005, 11:44
That most of the WFB world is leaning towards some sort of compsystem and the bastions of WAAC powergaming no-comp are getting fewer and fewer.

And there was much rejoicing. :D