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Baltar
23-01-2008, 17:56
I was just reading the original Genestealer article from White Dwarf last night, and the article makes no mention at all of the Tyranids.

It seems to imply that the Genestealers are their own separate race. When did the two become merged?

vipernyc
23-01-2008, 18:07
somewhere around 2nd edition, when the 'nids got their first codex.

Genestealers were originally totally different than what they are now... if you look at the picture in RT, about the only thing thats the same is that they have 4 arms (then again, in RT, the nids were totally different too... big headed guys with zoats as their main troops)

Chaplain of Chaos
23-01-2008, 19:10
Their most recent incarnation is far prefferably.

Leftenant Gashrog
23-01-2008, 20:10
The earliest mention I know of Genestealers as Tyranids was Advanced Space Crusade which was published in 1990 (40k 2nd edition was published in 1993).

clanfield
23-01-2008, 20:13
there was a wd tyranid list in 1991 that featured the artical on steeler cults being advance infitraters

max the dog
23-01-2008, 20:44
It's not that unexpected is it. We all know where GW got the idea for genestealers, the movie Alien. They got the idea for tyranids (and space marines) from the book Starship Troopers. Combining them made sense.

thearchiver
24-01-2008, 02:44
WD 145 is where the Genestealer Tyranids conection came to be. (1991)

2nd ed and the 2nd ed codex came after this has already been established.

intellectawe
24-01-2008, 02:50
They got the idea for tyranids (and space marines) from the book Starship Troopers. Combining them made sense.

Which isn't entirely true. Tyranids were modeled after Dinosaurs, not Insects or Aliens.

Look at the Word itself, Tyranid. Tyrannosaurus. Do some reaseach around the net, you'll see where they got the idea for Tyranids.

Devil-Tears
24-01-2008, 03:27
Which isn't entirely true. Tyranids were modeled after Dinosaurs, not Insects or Aliens.

Look at the Word itself, Tyranid. Tyrannosaurus. Do some reaseach around the net, you'll see where they got the idea for Tyranids.

Yeah, but so does the word "Tyrant." Basically, Tyranids are named like that because they are like Tyrants, eating everything without concern or discrimination. Bugs are definitely part of the Tyranid inspiration. Not to say that there isn't dinosaur influence, but bugs and insects were the major sources. When was the last time you saw a 6 limbed dinosaur (fossils of course)?

Commander Dante
24-01-2008, 03:32
also nid implies arachNID

Khaine's Messenger
24-01-2008, 03:37
also nid implies arachNID

There would be quite a few HomiNIDs rather frightened to know that. ;)

Still, the Tyranids in their current form were undoubtably inspired by the various "bug" aliens from classic and modern sci-fi while not using the same classifications as terrestrial "bugs." They're a bit more reptilian, but then, they're a grab-bag, really, including a host of critters from viruses on up.

Logic512
24-01-2008, 03:57
This thread gets some sort of nerdy seal of approval for combination of science taxonomy and mini wargames. Quick, someone think of a name for this seal.

Baltar
24-01-2008, 03:59
The obvious answer is the H.G. Wells Medal of Nerdery

Sidri
24-01-2008, 05:39
Medal of Nerdery???

I WANT ONE!!!

Bregalad
24-01-2008, 08:49
I don't have the documents, but my guess is that the Alien-copy Genestealers were the first Tyranids, then when the next Alien-copies came (Warriors from the Advanced Space Hulk?), they needed a common name and chose Tyranids. So basically, Genestealers were Tyranids from the start, but had no general name for it. That's my theory.

RFT
24-01-2008, 08:50
To quote myself from another forum...

1987: "Tyranids" introduced in original rogue trader rulebook as a single species. it's recognsiably what we now know as Termagants. "Ymgarl" Genestealers also feature, but look very different (no head, leech-like mouth, slimy with no carapace.) no link to tyranids mentioned. Life cycle is "alien" style chestbursting.

1989: Genestealers "look" redefined in Space Hulk. Life cycle changed from chestbursting to corrupted standard gestation, hybrids introduced. Genestealer cult army list in WD 116.

1990: Tyranid warriors introduced in Advanced Space Crusade. This is the start of the Tyranids we know and love, with the concept of hive fleets (the game is set during the war on hive fleet Kraken), bio-constructs, etc. (this is also the launch of space marine scouts and hellfire shells.). Genestealers tied in.

1991: First 40k tyranid army list appears in WD141 ( issue date: jan '92, but it would have been on the shelves in december '91)

Now, the question is whether there was always some grand plan that they were connected, or, when designing the proper Tyranids for ASC, they realised the Revamped-for-space-hulk genestealers would be a good "fit".

Borsil
24-01-2008, 09:10
also nid implies arachNID

'nid' is just the generic classification term for many families of creature- Hominid, Arachnid, Elapid, accipitrid, Suid, and even tyrannosaurid. The prefix Tyran just means Tyrant - master of all - as Devil-Tears said.

I think GW probably just turned round one day and decided that it would be cool to have the weird tyranids from space hulks being much more diverse and nasty than comes across originally, so they decided to add in that they had already spread some organisms (the genestealers) far across the galaxy.

I'm not sure where the idea that they are based on Dinosaurs comes from to be honest? Can any one point out the links for me because I'm still waking up hehe :)

Pilgrim
24-01-2008, 09:20
I'm not sure where the idea that they are based on dinosaurs comes from to be honest. Can any one point out the links for me because I'm still waking up hehe :)

As I recall off the top of my head, it was mentioned in one of the designer's notes, probably to the last re-release of Codex: Tyranids (whichever White Dwarf issue that would be). Unfortunately I can't check precisely, as my books are not at Uni with me.

Adrian

pookie
24-01-2008, 09:56
Which isn't entirely true. Tyranids were modeled after Dinosaurs, not Insects or Aliens.

Look at the Word itself, Tyranid. Tyrannosaurus. Do some reaseach around the net, you'll see where they got the idea for Tyranids.

thats true that inspiration was mainly 'dinosaurs in space' .


Yeah, but so does the word "Tyrant." Basically, Tyranids are named like that because they are like Tyrants, eating everything without concern or discrimination. Bugs are definitely part of the Tyranid inspiration. Not to say that there isn't dinosaur influence, but bugs and insects were the major sources. When was the last time you saw a 6 limbed dinosaur (fossils of course)?

GW reason is that Tyranids are named after the first known Planet the consumed - Tyran.


1991: First 40k tyranid army list appears in WD141 ( issue date: jan '92, but it would have been on the shelves in december '91)

are you sure, WD 141 had a Blood Angel/Eldar battle report, an article on the Space Marine Game ( epic ) and some Space Fleet stuff in it, along with iirc Woodelf stuff painted by Mike McVae ( sp ).

DantesInferno
24-01-2008, 09:59
1987: "Tyranids" introduced in original rogue trader rulebook as a single species. it's recognsiably what we now know as Termagants. "Ymgarl" Genestealers also feature, but look very different (no head, leech-like mouth, slimy with no carapace.) no link to tyranids mentioned. Life cycle is "alien" style chestbursting.

1989: Genestealers "look" redefined in Space Hulk. Life cycle changed from chestbursting to corrupted standard gestation, hybrids introduced. Genestealer cult army list in WD 116.

1990: Tyranid warriors introduced in Advanced Space Crusade. This is the start of the Tyranids we know and love, with the concept of hive fleets (the game is set during the war on hive fleet Kraken), bio-constructs, etc. (this is also the launch of space marine scouts and hellfire shells.). Genestealers tied in.

1991: First 40k tyranid army list appears in WD141 ( issue date: jan '92, but it would have been on the shelves in december '91)

Now, the question is whether there was always some grand plan that they were connected, or, when designing the proper Tyranids for ASC, they realised the Revamped-for-space-hulk genestealers would be a good "fit".

Has anyone else noticed that there's an odd connection between GW's understanding of the Genestealers and the Imperium's? Initially they're an alien race famous for their fast-spreading cults, but with no links to any bigger scale threats to the Imperium. Then out of nowhere comes this huge alien invasion, and it turns out the Genestealers are actually the vanguard organisms for this big new threat....

Iracundus
24-01-2008, 10:12
The big step forward in Tyranid background was Epic Hive War which introduced nearly all the larger Tyranid organisms, which are still being milked by GW to this day. This was the expansion that rationalized how the Genestealers were "discovered" to be part of the Tyranids when they were first sighted in action in the forces of Hive Fleet Behemoth.

Sikkukkut
24-01-2008, 11:04
Did Epic Hive War predate the second-edition 40K boxed set?

Gazak Blacktoof
24-01-2008, 11:11
I don't much like the background reason for the name for tyranids- They attacked a planet called Tyran, pffft!

I much prefer Borsil's/ the studio's reasoning- they're masters of all creatures.




Has anyone else noticed that there's an odd connection between GW's understanding of the Genestealers and the Imperium's? Initially they're an alien race famous for their fast-spreading cults, but with no links to any bigger scale threats to the Imperium. Then out of nowhere comes this huge alien invasion, and it turns out the Genestealers are actually the vanguard organisms for this big new threat....

I believe they're trying to do something similar with necrons.

They started off as raiders. Little known in 40K and underdevelopment by the studio.

The plan as far as I can tell from notes and old WDs is that they'll release various additions to the necron range when they think them up- in 40K universe terms this is new units being woken or else identified from scraps of info from raids and they'd been there all along.

Expanding this to all the races- tyranids mutate, tau are developing new techs and humans and orcs are always seen as adaptive. With the eldar they just shoe-horned the autarch in by creating an uber exarch.

Epic Thoughts
25-01-2008, 00:55
Yeah, but so does the word "Tyrant." Basically, Tyranids are named like that because they are like Tyrants, eating everything without concern or discrimination. Bugs are definitely part of the Tyranid inspiration. Not to say that there isn't dinosaur influence, but bugs and insects were the major sources. When was the last time you saw a 6 limbed dinosaur (fossils of course)?

Tyrannosaurus is latin for 'tyrant lizard'. Tyranids were named so by Kryptman when he found the dataslate on the planet, Tyran.

Certainly there are connection, obvious and otherwise, between Tyranids and other insectiod like sci fi species, but, there's also the more subtle connection with dinosaurs (guants always did look like raptors to me). It's a fare more unique connection then the bug idea.

Iracundus
25-01-2008, 05:06
Tyrannosaurus is latin for 'tyrant lizard'. Tyranids were named so by Kryptman when he found the dataslate on the planet, Tyran.

Certainly there are connection, obvious and otherwise, between Tyranids and other insectiod like sci fi species, but, there's also the more subtle connection with dinosaurs (guants always did look like raptors to me). It's a fare more unique connection then the bug idea.

The Tyranid appearance has always been a blend of multiple sources. While the most obvious is Alien and insects for the Genestealer lifestyle, and the six limbs, open circulatory system, and exoskeleton, the scales on the old Tyranid Warriors was definitely a reference to reptilian or dinosaurian sources. The latest Gaunts with their rigid tails are a direct evocation of the use of tails as a balancing mechanism by certain dinosaurs.
Jess Goodwin also mentioned the holes/indentations on the sides of certain Tyranids as being a reference to similar structures in the skulls of some dinosaurs.

RFT
25-01-2008, 08:56
thats true that inspiration was mainly 'dinosaurs in space' .

are you sure, WD 141 had a Blood Angel/Eldar battle report, an article on the Space Marine Game ( epic ) and some Space Fleet stuff in it, along with iirc Woodelf stuff painted by Mike McVae ( sp ).

I looked it up on an issue index, but it looks like I typoe'd it when I wrote the original post (that's a post I did on the Relic forums in 2006). Checking again, the correct issue is WD145. (http://members.visi.net/~templar/WD/WH40K.html)
I'm pretty sure that link doesn't break any GW IP, being simply an index.