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sabreu
24-01-2008, 05:31
Question in title, basically. Fluffwise, gamewise, how does everyone see them coming out once their revitalized for 5th edition?

Glavemaster
24-01-2008, 08:05
New models! That's a must. The old models are quite meh, IMO.

Dicey
24-01-2008, 08:20
DE dont need too many changes, but with rumoured changes coming in for 5th ed, any changes I suggest now may not prove useful.

Units that you will rarely see
Grots
if 5ed rules are true, then they would be useful again or maybe worse

Mandrakes
with the rumored new saves, they could be ace. Though they really need a "sarge" model and either a shooty upgrade or some cc power.

Whyches on boards
need to be reviewed as their special rule is quite moot.

The models themselves are old and going by GWs current standards weak. in practice the models are weak too and I never go to a game without my glue. My raiders although nice models, have now all lost their wings How many times can you glue something back on?

nova40k
24-01-2008, 08:29
Streamline the archon and dracon's wargear.

Remove wych archite and just have dracite.

Mandrakes get lictor deep-striking, stealth, move through cover, and a character upgrade

Grots should stay the same stat and rulewise but the Monkey should be a character add

Wyches should be simplfied to Perfered Enemy, Dire Avenger Defend, one of the drugs (+1A) makesthe most sense, get plasma and haywires, keep their in CC inv save and be 15 pts

Warp beast shoudl stay just as they are and not count towards the chart at all but be allowed one per wych unit.

Warriors should be troops if unmounted, same with wyches. Wyches should be elites if mounted and warriors should be fast attack if mounted.

Warriors should have splinter cannon and blaster as special weapons; while disintigrators and dark lances should be heavy.

Reavers should come down in cost, lose the shredder for the splinter cannon, lose the drugs and keep the +1 S. Hell if they keep the spikes they should get +1A like old cchaos.

Hellions need something that is an assualt rifle maybe RNG 12 STR 3 AP 5 Assualt 1 or 2, and have furious charge from their pike things.

Ravager should not be open topped anymore. I would like to see a dual splinter cannon upgrade as well same goes for the raider.

Scourges should be able to drop the jetpack (and some of the cost) and equip a dark lance or a dintigrator; or keep the pack and equip a splinter cannon or blaster.

Talos is well should be toughness 6 or 7 and have FNP. For Weapons it loses this whole wild fire thing should go away same with the random amount of attacks.

As far as the whole raider model it should be a downloadable PDF that is a fold your own model.

logosloki
24-01-2008, 08:39
Themewise I'm at two parts.

One would be to expand on the corsair theme, lightning raids for resources and slaves which are sent back to work or to be 'played' with.

But the other way would be just to actually to a ret-con and actually have them as slaneeshi worshippers.

The corsairs expansion would be good, and is my option one. But part of me, probabley the cynic says that the slaneeshi route would be beneficial to add new units/background. slaneesh is definitely my option two.

Dakwan
24-01-2008, 08:44
good summary nova, aside from everything he said i wouldn't mind seeing a few more vehicle options

boogle
24-01-2008, 11:06
There are some nice models in the list (Incubi and the Talos), but i feel a total model revamp is in order, as are tweaks to the Mandrake, Scourge and Wych rules (the latter for better clarification), and also make them a move variable army in terms of game plan (they are very much Raiders+Archon with Shadowfield, then fill out the rest of the points with other stuff, point and click army), most importantly we need to have the background fleshed out (please don't let CS Goto touch it however), to see what truely motivates the DE to be slave takers and raiders.

Baaltharus
24-01-2008, 11:36
I like Novas reworking but I'd say that Scourges should have to keep their jetpacks (apparently you can move and fire heavy weapons with JPs in 5th edition), I despise an army having units that can assault 32" in one turn, its just ridiculous.

I'd also consider stopping fleeting after disembarking from a moving vehicle. Being able to move and assault farther than the basic weapon range in the game is something of an irksome point with me.

DE warrior squads should get 1 heavy weapon for every 10 guys and Raiders should be put up in points by maybe 10-15. DE Lords should be slightly nerfed as getting to strength 6 with rerolls to hit after killing 1 guy is ridiculous. I'd probably just remove the Archons combat drugs altogether.

I'd also massively up the points for terrorfexs.

Adra
24-01-2008, 11:53
Yep model re-vamp is a must, but i think thats obvious to us all at this stage as the range is pretty old now.

Also I would like to see a re-vamp of the fluff. I dont like the 'chaos eldar' image. maybe they could do something that expands the saddness of the DE situation, that they are doomed to do what they do for fear of horror eternal.

intellectawe
24-01-2008, 13:36
Streamline the archon and dracon's wargear.

What do you mean?


Remove wych archite and just have dracite.

Why? So my Wych Cult can have a sub par HQ choice at 1500+ point games? I don't see the point of this.


Mandrakes get lictor deep-striking, stealth, move through cover, and a character upgrade

All fun, yet it doesn't change the fact that they suck. Giving them a Character Upgrade would be just like how the Orks do things, 30 wound Nobs with Power Klaws. Their current deployment rule is nice, and isn't over powering.

The issue is, once they get into combat, they pretty much are pants. Maybe give the entire unit a poison type of attack, where they always wound on a 4+. This would be the same against T 3 models, and make them slightly better against T 4 models.


Grots should stay the same stat and rulewise but the Monkey should be a character add

There is no sense that they can deflect bullets due to feel no pain, yet they have NO save and a T of 3. Reove this silly rule, and just make them T 5 with a 5+ save for close combat.


Wyches should be simplfied to Perfered Enemy, Dire Avenger Defend, one of the drugs (+1A) makesthe most sense, get plasma and haywires, keep their in CC inv save and be 15 pts

Wyches are perfectly fine as they are. The randomness of the drugs is what defines their role on the battle field. Depending on the choice you get therefor tells you what that squad is best at doing. I don't know what the Dire Defend is, but their current save is fine. They die to shooting, and can stand up to most opponents easily with their 4++ save. Their wych weapons are fine, except they need to be ammended to work BOTH ways instead of on defense.


Warp beast shoudl stay just as they are and not count towards the chart at all but be allowed one per wych unit.

Warp Beasts are fine, I agree.


Warriors should be troops if unmounted, same with wyches. Wyches should be elites if mounted and warriors should be fast attack if mounted.

Does't make sense. The idea behind the army is that everything is fast attack. There is no need to make a troop choice fast attack just because of a Raider. What needs to be doone is FIX the FA units to make them viable.

What we do need is a close combat version of warriors. Pistol and CC option would be fine.


Warriors should have splinter cannon and blaster as special weapons; while disintigrators and dark lances should be heavy.

They do already? They don't need a Disintigrator. It will be the new Star Cannon / Ass Cannon. This weapon works fine as a vehicle exlusive weapon. Gives the Ravager a purpose.


Reavers should come down in cost, lose the shredder for the splinter cannon, lose the drugs and keep the +1 S. Hell if they keep the spikes they should get +1A like old cchaos.

I agree with you here. Shredder is pants. Dump that thing.


Hellions need something that is an assualt rifle maybe RNG 12 STR 3 AP 5 Assualt 1 or 2, and have furious charge from their pike things.

I agree somewhat. Hellions should have an option to be either shooty or assaulty. Give them an assault 18" weapon or arm them with pistol and CC. Furious Charge seems ok by me.


Ravager should not be open topped anymore. I would like to see a dual splinter cannon upgrade as well same goes for the raider.

Ravager should not be open topped I agree. What the Ravager needs is a Night Shield fix. Dump the current crap rule and modify it with something that works like a weak Eldar field, like a 5++ against hits, or give it night fighting rules. Dual Splinter Cannon sounds good.


Scourges should be able to drop the jetpack (and some of the cost) and equip a dark lance or a dintigrator; or keep the pack and equip a splinter cannon or blaster.

Dropping the jet pack makes no sense. You can just field min troops with 2 DLs and be slightly more expensive but infinatley more useful. They need to loose the Dark Lance, and have a choice of Splinter Cannon or Blaster. Also, they need to be 4+ for their saves.


Talos is well should be toughness 6 or 7 and have FNP. For Weapons it loses this whole wild fire thing should go away same with the random amount of attacks.

It should stay T 7 and have a 3+ / 5++ save in close combat. I don't think it needs Feel No Pain, as fluffy as that may sound. Also, lose the d6 attacks. Make it d3 + 2. It sucks getting 1 attack 3 rounds in row. It really does. Lose the redilculous pen rule it has. I don't know how pen will be in 5th, so I cn't comment, but just give is MC for now.


As far as the whole raider model it should be a downloadable PDF that is a fold your own model.

I hope you are joking.

marv335
24-01-2008, 15:02
I play against the DE quite often, we have several players in my game group.
I think a few things could be good for the DE

Make splinter rifles assault weapons. S3 24" Ap5 assault 2
Incubi armour as a selection for Archons
Harlequins as an Elite choice
Wytches, either a points increase for the weapons or change them entirely. far to good for what they do. especially in a unit that can get 1st turn charges to offset their only weakness.
Talos give it an Av and make it a vehicle (think dreadnaught)
give bikes EJB move and boost them to a 3+ sv
Hellions ,I'd like to see them doing fly-by shootings and being able to attack in HtH with their boards (furious assault+Power weapons in the turn they charge)

just a few things
I think GW need to focus on the fast raiding force aspect

Bloodknight
24-01-2008, 15:08
DE warrior squads should get 1 heavy weapon for every 10 guys

Agreed. The way the game is supposed to work in the future does not support 2 heavy weapons in 10 troops.


and Raiders should be put up in points by maybe 10-15.

Why? It's open topped, loses 6" movement in the new rules and is already 15 points more expensive than a Rhino.


DE Lords should be slightly nerfed as getting to strength 6 with rerolls to hit after killing 1 guy is ridiculous. I'd probably just remove the Archons combat drugs altogether.


You might as well remove the whole Archon then. The combat drugs are what makes him worthwhile. Without them his CC prowess is dubious because he won't kill much and get wounded a lot. Also: I do not believe that the Animus will survive a redo, so he'll probably max out at S5 anyway. I think a 160 point model warrants that.



I'd also massively up the points for terrorfexs.

Again: why? It has to be fired instead of a real gun on the vehicle and does not a lot unless your opponent plays Eldar or Tau which are the armies with lowest factual Ld. The dreaded modifier comes by RAW into play only against units under half strength anyway, ie dead men walking.

Baaltharus
24-01-2008, 15:21
Why? It's open topped, loses 6" movement in the new rules and is already 15 points more expensive than a Rhino.

To offset the fact that they can get a first turn charge while fof remains in play after disembarking. However, its present price may be adequate with the supposed changes coming in 5th edition.


You might as well remove the whole Archon then. The combat drugs are what makes him worthwhile. Without them his CC prowess is dubious because he won't kill much and get wounded a lot. Also: I do not believe that the Animus will survive a redo, so he'll probably max out at S5 anyway. I think a 160 point model warrants that.

Hes 160 points but with so many attacks hitting on 3+ with rerolls and str 6 he generally kills half a squad of MEQs by himself and powerfists which stop pretty much any other characters (well at least hurt MC ) from going on similar rampages bounce off his 2+ save more often than not.


Again: why? It has to be fired instead of a real gun on the vehicle and does not a lot unless your opponent plays Eldar or Tau which are the armies with lowest factual Ld. The dreaded modifier comes by RAW into play only against units under half strength anyway, ie dead men walking.

Is it? The opponent I play generally fires all his weapons plus his (5-10pts?) terrorfex. I find the weapon immensly annoying even with my BAs (it usually hits 3 models so a 6 to pass for all my troops except the fearless DC). Unless I'm being cheated here?

sabreu
24-01-2008, 15:33
personally, I would make the following changes:

1.) Haemonculi get's a retinue of grotesques as a retinue, like a farseer gets warlocks. Drop Grotesques from Elites.
2.) Lord becomes more like the Autarch (he can grab all kinds of different gear from other units). Can be a Lord of Commorragh, or a dangerous exile.
3.) Psyker class HQ. Actually, more Psykers spread throughout the ranks, period. Maybe even some used like the Lensors from the Chronicles of Riddick (to show you debased and cruel Dark Eldar can be) that could be used as an auspex against deep strikers or infiltrators or even act as a psychic hood.
4.) Poison weapons becoming a predominant weapon type amongst the Dark Eldar.
5.) Harlequins as Elites, cut and paste from Codex: Eldar
6.) Warp beasts taken as Fast attack, no limitation.

Those are just a few ideas for gameplay. Fluffwise:

1.) Focus on Eldar Corsairs moreso than just Commoragh. Ala Chaos renegades versus Legions.
2.) Expand on undisciplined Eldar behavior.
3.) Re-image Helions. Riding anti-grav surf boards should be left to the Silversurfer. This is a personal opinion, so feel free to disagree, but I think they can be given something else.

Kantur
24-01-2008, 15:48
I'll come back to this when I have time to type out everything I'd thought of, but I'm surprised no one's mentioned this one yet: Give Warriors the option to swap the splinter rifle for splinter pistol + close combat weapon.

Bloodknight
24-01-2008, 15:51
@Baaltharus: I advise you to read the Horrorfex rules for yourself :)
give your opponent the favour of doubt, I guess he misread it. I've seen it played wrong many times. And the fact that it counts as a defensive weapon does not change the fact that it has to be fired instead of another weapon.

As for the Archon: to get S6 you need to take at least one slave (killing a model is not sufficient), risk a wound (if you choose the re-roll, too) or even an autokill (reroll, s+1 and a+1). Once he gets wounded he already hands over half of his VP and he's pretty much allergic to return attacks because he's usually instantly dead once he fails his save.

Dicey
24-01-2008, 15:58
Nova
thanks for an in depth review, I have added some of my thoughts

Streamline the archon and dracon's wargear.
Don tlike this as customising characters is my thing

Remove wych archite and just have dracite.
this will only work if they disalow whych covens
Mandrakes get lictor deep-striking, stealth, move through cover, and a character upgrade
OK and good but they need more weapons aswell

Grots should stay the same stat and rulewise but the Monkey should be a character add
Unsure deoend on 5th ed rules

Wyches should be simplfied to Perfered Enemy, Dire Avenger Defend, one of the drugs (+1A) makesthe most sense, get plasma and haywires, keep their in CC inv save and be 15 pts
Please dont change theses guys GW!!!

Warp beast shoudl stay just as they are and not count towards the chart at all but be allowed one per wych unit.
cool

Warriors should be troops if unmounted, same with wyches. Wyches should be elites if mounted and warriors should be fast attack if mounted.
dont like this they are fine as they are

Warriors should have splinter cannon and blaster as special weapons; while disintigrators and dark lances should be heavy.
cool

Reavers should come down in cost, lose the shredder for the splinter cannon, lose the drugs and keep the +1 S. Hell if they keep the spikes they should get +1A like old cchaos.
cool
Hellions need something that is an assualt rifle maybe RNG 12 STR 3 AP 5 Assualt 1 or 2, and have furious charge from their pike things.
assault 2 def
Ravager should not be open topped anymore. I would like to see a dual splinter cannon upgrade as well same goes for the raider.
I like this, maybe more powerful psi weapons

Scourges should be able to drop the jetpack (and some of the cost) and equip a dark lance or a dintigrator; or keep the pack and equip a splinter cannon or blaster.
I just dont like these guys
Talos is well should be toughness 6 or 7 and have FNP. For Weapons it loses this whole wild fire thing should go away same with the random amount of attacks.
Agreed the wild fire should go, the toughness thing with FNP is a bit much

As far as the whole raider model it should be a downloadable PDF that is a fold your own model
lol
Regarding raiders in 5ed they could become very weak as they will be slower and easier to take down, not that it was hard to begin with

randomalias
24-01-2008, 16:15
While not perfect, DE are pretty strong right now. All that needs to be changed really is something to make more varied lists viable and to tweak and streamline some of the rules. Also new models is a no brainer.

sabreu
24-01-2008, 16:20
Despite the fans, Dark Eldar will change. All armies change when they get updated. So it won't just get streamlined ya know!

Grazzy
24-01-2008, 16:21
While not perfect, DE are pretty strong right now. All that needs to be changed really is something to make more varied lists viable and to tweak and streamline some of the rules. Also new models is a no brainer.

This is basically the reply i was going to write!

DE are a very strong army in the right hands right now, but they are incredibly limited in which units to take as most are complete rubbish. Evening out of rules and of course new models.

mattieice
24-01-2008, 16:28
Everyone should check out the Dawn of War: Soulstorm Demo. They did a great job of updating their look and making them fit in 40k better. Here's the link: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/warhammer40000dawnofwarsoulstorm/downloads.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=tabs&tag=tabs;downloads

Lord_Squinty
24-01-2008, 17:47
Again: why? It has to be fired instead of a real gun on the vehicle and does not a lot unless your opponent plays Eldar or Tau which are the armies with lowest factual Ld. The dreaded modifier comes by RAW into play only against units under half strength anyway, ie dead men walking.

Ah, but the punctuation half way through stops youre dodgy RAW....:cheese:
It is an ADDITIONAL modifier. It does NOT only come into play on units under half strength.

Bloodknight
24-01-2008, 18:31
Could you elaborate or please quote that? Since English is not my first language I might have gotten that wrong, though I doubt it ;)

Champsguy
24-01-2008, 19:10
Fluff-wise, I'd like them to move away from Hellraiser. Make them feel more like The Lost Boys. Sleep all day, party all night. It's fun to be a vampi... err, a Dark Eldar. Theme-wise, they should feel like the song Hotel California. At first, it seems really fun and exciting. Then you find out they're really all crazy. Less bondage gear, though. I like the idea of carefree, zero-responsibility Eldar pirate teenagers a lot more than creepy guys who capture prisoners and then masturbate with barbed wire.

Rule-wise, there have been several good suggestions here. I'd make soul seeker ammunition an upgrade for the squad for like +15 points. That'll increase the firepower of their guys without making them stay as a simple cheap heavy weapon squad. Also, go with the rumored 18" Str 3 AP 5 Assault 2 statline for the splinter rifle.

TzeentchForPresident
24-01-2008, 19:27
A suggestion that goes for the entire army. Right now a DE army is as fast Craftworld Eldar, make DE faster. They lack the armour and durability of Craftworld Eldar at least give them more speed.

The hit and run theme really suits them.

Lord_Squinty
24-01-2008, 21:04
Could you elaborate or please quote that? Since English is not my first language I might have gotten that wrong, though I doubt it ;)

"under half its starting strength, and -1 per model hit" DE codex - page 15 Terrorfex entry.

Note the emphasis on the punctuation - thats the bit you've missed.
for a full quote - check you're codex ;)

It means its an and/or situation - it doesnt have to be both.

DarkEldarRuler
24-01-2008, 21:28
K..well i play dark eldar. here's what i think:
as of now:
wyches- great the way they are...if they don't get into combat..they are dead.
archon- awesone str, attacks, and 2+ invul, but fill him with enough weak shots and that save is gone.
grotesques-let em be retinue for haemonculous
hellions- give em assault / power weapons, and more wych aspects
bikes- i dunno, less points maybe...25 a pop is pricey
warriors- keep troops with the 2 DL, i mean....thats our only anti tank weapon...something with splinter rifles...perhaps that rule from the Decapitator. (6s to hit = double str wounds)
scourges- optional wings to whoever said that (thanks) and less points.
talos- fine, maybe fleet, (ive been working on a apocalypse formation /
datasheet for a haemonculous / grotesque / talos formation, ill post it when its
done.
incubi- awesone unit...but take em without an archon / dracon maybe?
warb beasts- more in a sqaud perhaps
mandrakes- i would be completely fine if a squad leader was available for em (with power weapon :P).
ravagers- 12 armor in front, or not open topped <---but they are open topped :P..actually ravagers are fine..maybe 5 points less
well i think thats it, plz leave feedback.

marv335
24-01-2008, 22:24
I would be very very surprised if the wytches don't get hit with the nerf bat
I mean have you seen what "wytch weapons" do for only 1pt?

Captain Micha
24-01-2008, 23:53
This would be step one
Annihilate all old fluff
Step two
Abolish the entire army list and model range both.
Step three,
actually come up with something better than eldar that go 'oh spank me.. I like bdsm!' or "hur hur hur slaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvesssss"
Maybe actually make them former Eldar slaves that survived the fall of some kind

Step four, if second part of three is taken, get a new name

Step Five, get a new name period

Step six
begin creating new unit rules

Step seven
create new models based on fluff and rules.

Step eight
Play test the snot out of it to ensure that at least 90 percent of the units in the codex are infact usable.

Step nine
actually promote them for more than two days

Step Ten
Never again abandon them for more than a decade.

Baaltharus
25-01-2008, 00:11
I would be very very surprised if the wytches don't get hit with the nerf bat
I mean have you seen what "wytch weapons" do for only 1pt?

Wyches are often a ridiculous unit, possible 32" assault, usually unshootable and ridiculously difficult to shift from cc with non horde armies (and even then they can be a pain) and often supported with a Archon to rip through the toughtest opposition.

They should be looking at a price hike or more appropriately a change in rules. Dumb it down, give them 2 attacks basic, prefered enemy and their 4++ save (adjusting points accordingly).

I'd also say giving hellions power weapons is a very bad idea, furious assault with more attacks, hit and run and some light weight shooting would be better. You could give them something like Zagstrucks deep strike rules to represent them screeching down to attack from on high.

Alternatively they should be for attacking isolated units, slicing up lightly armoured opposition while diving about the board. I don't see how having a 1 turn power weapon could be justified and the idea is just silly.

Dark Eldar warrior squads should definately turn into close range fire support and additional cc support, not long range heavy weapon snipers. Loose 2 heavy weapons for sure.

Defcon
25-01-2008, 00:54
This thread has certainly helped me realize that the crew at GW can't do any worse than most of the suggestions of the playerbase. OR CAN THEY?

Captain Micha
25-01-2008, 01:01
Honestly, I have not seen any suggestions that are worse than the crapdex.... I mean codex and fluff De currently have.

marv335
25-01-2008, 01:14
the problem is you get "wytch spam" armies happening.
at 2000pts you can get 5 units of wytches in raiders, 2 units of warriors in raiders, and 3 ravagers
If those wytches (2 of the units have wytch characters in them) get into assault then kiss your army goodbye.
I've seen them rampage through opponents lines way too many times.
Maybe one or two of the raiders will get taken down before the wytch wave hits, but more often than not they pile in and do horrible things.
Wytch weapons make a mockery of elite troops, and a sybarite with agoniser takes town the toughest of opponents with ease.

It may be "themed" and "fluffy" to do the wytch cult thing, but marines players use the same excuse to spam assault cannons, and IW players did the same thing.
one mans fluff is another mans cheesefest.
any single aspect of an army taken to extremes can (and probbly will) make it broken.
when revision time comes around, that extreme gets hit with the nerfhammer.
It happened to chaos (extreme cult lists gone)
It happened to eldar (say goodbye to all those starcannons)
It looks like it's going to happen to the SM (the days of the assault cannon are numbered)

I think it'll happen to the wytches.

who wants to bet me a cookie?

:D

Captain Micha
25-01-2008, 01:17
It might not happen to the wytch. I don't know if Wytches are particularly overly nasty, (I've never played vs a De so take this for what you will) but most of the units in the codex are infact about as good at killing things as a dog **** by comparison from what I have seen and read about on this forum, and others. And those other units.... well they suck. When you have only one -good- unit in a codex it becomes very easy for it to shine.

Wytches are anti meq, but not anti horde correct? that is something we have seen on the rise since the tau codex, with it's vespid, railrifles, ion cannons and fire knife. Every codex that has been released since then has at least some very strong way to deal with meqs.

Baaltharus
25-01-2008, 02:01
With out being overly rude, if you've never played against DE your surely not in a great position to comment on their effectiveness or lack there of?

The units which people use with the DE are ridiculously good at killing MEQ but also pretty damn effective against most other things. A ravager for instance will often down 4-6 marines in one round of shooting.

A 10 man/women unit of Wychs is almost equally effective point for point at tackling both hordes and MEQs (having as they often do +1str, +1 attacks, +ws1 or reroll hits in cc). Your basic shooting and charging Wych squad will kill 10, 11, 11, 11 orks (for example) or something in that region, stick in a lord and you can probably add 3-4 more kills(which definately makes them better vs MEQs). In most cases you'll clear your kill zone and be free of attacks back.

Just by doing annoying things like parking your expendable raider infront of combat you can then deny enemy units the ability to counter charge until you've finished off your target, softened up a the counter attackers and then charged them in turn.

DarkEldarRuler
25-01-2008, 02:22
hmmmm i don't agree....when i charge my wyches in, evin with + 1 attack, against marines, i usually kill 2-3 with normal atacks, and like 2-3 with power weapon....not 10-15 like u said....
i wouldn't be disappointed that much if they added like 3-5 points to the cost of a wych.
people need to understand, that instead of , when they lose a combat, moving closer to the wyches, move further way.
Many a battle, people keep piling on my wyches. simply moving away and gunning em down works just fine.

o kay orks...ur right than, but they just overpower wyches witht hier 2 base attacks : (

Captain Micha
25-01-2008, 02:28
With out being overly rude, if you've never played against DE your surely not in a great position to comment on their effectiveness or lack there of?

The units which people use with the DE are ridiculously good at killing MEQ but also pretty damn effective against most other things. A ravager for instance will often down 4-6 marines in one round of shooting.

A 10 man/women unit of Wychs is almost equally effective point for point at tackling both hordes and MEQs (having as they often do +1str, +1 attacks, +ws1 or reroll hits in cc). Your basic shooting and charging Wych squad will kill 10, 11, 11, 11 or something in that region, stick in a lord and you can probably add 3-4 more kills(which definately makes them better vs MEQs). In most cases you'll clear your kill zone and be free of attacks back.

Just by doing annoying things like parking your expendable raider infront of combat you can then deny enemy units the ability to counter charge until you've finished off your target, softened up a the counter attackers and then charged them in turn.


but wouldn't completely wiping a large area leave them very open to return fire?

Baaltharus
25-01-2008, 02:41
hmmmm i don't agree....when i charge my wyches in, evin with + 1 attack, against marines, i usually kill 2-3 with normal atacks, and like 2-3 with power weapon....not 10-15 like u said....
i wouldn't be disappointed that much if they added like 3-5 points to the cost of a wych.
people need to understand, that instead of , when they lose a combat, moving closer to the wyches, move further way.
Many a battle, people keep piling on my wyches. simply moving away and gunning em down works just fine.

I should have been more specific, I was refering to Orks (I've edited the post) as an example of a horde army.

@Captain Micha, it is often the case that wiping out or breaking an enemy unit will leave the attacker open to counter fire but this is often much less likely with DE as they usually assault with 2-3 units in one turn and can turn effective shooting units to paste with their many dark lances and disintegrators. They also have a uselful little item called a horrorfex(sp?) which can be very effective at pinning units.

DarkEldarRuler
25-01-2008, 02:41
yea. when my wychs "kill everything" instead of moving in to try to "out assault" them. stay away, and shoot them with pew pew guns. :confused:
aha...about the horrorfex i always put it on my ships, but i find them shooting at other ships more and more. but if i were to use it, i also find most people seem to be fearless, or RR morale, so it isn't as effective as it once was.

sabreu
25-01-2008, 02:44
Baaltharus,

I don't think that's the right idea. Ideas that are good, are good no matter the source (and vice versa). They can come from both dedicated DE players or those that can only theory hammer them. /preaching over

Captain Micha,

Would Eldar Raiders be a better name? I personally like that over 'Dark Eldar', but that's just me. It could be a catch all for Dark Eldar, Eldar Pirates, Croneworld Eldar, Fallen Aspects, etc.

Honestly, one question for everyone: Why don't the Dark Eldar have the ability to summon Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Eldarin God of Rage, War, and Murder?

Baaltharus
25-01-2008, 02:44
The whole point I'm trying to get across is that it is very easy to tie down large sections of an enemy army thus denying the enemy the ability to shoot the Wychs or failing this, doing significant amounts of damages to would be enemy shooters to render their fire largely ineffective.

@Sabreu, what idea? What are you refering to specifically?

DarkEldarRuler
25-01-2008, 02:48
hmm away from fluff plz...its meaningless

@Blaatharus (or whatever)i accept that whyches are good, but one squad is not worth more than the whychs most likely, so its a trade off, wychs win, they get shot....points are exchanged

sabreu
25-01-2008, 02:59
Oh, um, digging on Micha for not actually playing with or against dark eldar. There's plenty of theoryhammerists who can come up with some pretty nice iideas. :p

DarkEldarRuler
25-01-2008, 03:00
hmmm... we can all agree that micha should be sshhhing, because he doesn;t know what he is talking about. so with this out of the way, the big boys can talk about the DE.

AllisterCaine
25-01-2008, 04:06
By taking away their shadow field (gayness) or whatever its called...that should be all the improvements necessary. The "i ma guna asult u at turn 1" should also be removed...permanently.

sabreu
25-01-2008, 04:08
why? what's so wrong with a first turn assault from an army that relies entirely on speed?

Captain Micha
25-01-2008, 04:39
Baaltharus,

I don't think that's the right idea. Ideas that are good, are good no matter the source (and vice versa). They can come from both dedicated DE players or those that can only theory hammer them. /preaching over

Captain Micha,

Would Eldar Raiders be a better name? I personally like that over 'Dark Eldar', but that's just me. It could be a catch all for Dark Eldar, Eldar Pirates, Croneworld Eldar, Fallen Aspects, etc.

Honestly, one question for everyone: Why don't the Dark Eldar have the ability to summon Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Eldarin God of Rage, War, and Murder?

Eldar Raiders does sound a good bit better... okay alot better. I don't think of emo elves sitting in a corner while reciting emo poetry. especially since this covers more than just residents of Commorgraph? (is that right?)

I also have no idea why they do not summon an avatar. Or maybe some godling avatar of bohemian pursuits.

I do not see how my idea regarding the De is a bad one (scrapping it all and starting fresh) given that I think there is a pretty good reason right now as to why I have never faced a De force. With minis, and rules that badly outdated save for two build archetypes...

sabreu
25-01-2008, 05:27
I would agree scraping it and starting over with a full reconceptualization might be good, but it would peeve those that have invested in the army already. Not much different if you would do it to any other army I suppose.

It's just right now their own fluff paints them to be such an insignifant player in the grand schemes of things. "We need slaves! Go to a world and get me some!" - Any/every Lord and DE plotline.


Edit: Add-in

If they did start over, I suppose 'Dark Eldar Warriors' could be become an elites choice, probably as deadly as harlies, huh?

nova40k
25-01-2008, 05:39
Well if we are talking about a complete revamp I think that since "light" eldar is crafworld
dark eldar should be webway eldar.

Dark eldar needs to stay the same. Super fast super fragile army. I like the raider and webway rushes that is why I built this army in fourth.

The fluff should be those who didnt have to go to a craftworld to be safe from the birth of Slaneesh. The eldar who drank and partied too much.

sabreu
25-01-2008, 05:41
gameplay is their strong point and should remain. Really, it comes down to the fact they need to be:

Reimaged (Canon or 'fluff', models, etc)
Rearmed (Weapons, wargear, etc)
Updated (for 5th Edition)

Feuermann
25-01-2008, 08:45
DE need all new models and rules. (a new codex, not other patch in their army book)

Baaltharus
25-01-2008, 12:04
Oh, um, digging on Micha for not actually playing with or against dark eldar. There's plenty of theoryhammerists who can come up with some pretty nice iideas. :p

I'm not digging at Micha, I was simply stating what is a pretty fair point, if I'd never played against Orks for instance and had just skimmed the codex theres little chance I'd have seen some of the better units in action or any of the usual effective tactics.

Never having played with or against an army would then certainly suggest that the individual is in most cases less well suited to comment on possible changes to the army list at least. Fluff changes are fair enough, its more than a fair point that the DE are insignificant in terms of the big picture. Is this a necasserally a bad thing though? The Tau are pretty insignificant but there very popular.

intellectawe
25-01-2008, 12:10
By taking away their shadow field (gayness) or whatever its called...that should be all the improvements necessary.

Yeah. Take away our only good armor save in just about the entire army. Which happens to be on a single model! The entire army sports 5+ or worse armor save for the most part.


The "i ma guna asult u at turn 1" should also be removed...permanently.

While I agree to an extent, this isn't a Dark Eldar exclusive issue.

randomalias
25-01-2008, 12:29
Dark Eldar as former Eldar slaves? You have to be joking. Just because you don't like the fluff as stands doesn't make it crap, as I play the army because of their current fluff. Dark Eldar are the true Eldar if any such creatures still exist. They are the remnants of the Eldar culture at the time of the fall, the very same self serving bastards that caused the birth of an entire Chaos God. The Craftworlders' were too weak to hold on to the power of their birthright, and they are damned to fleeing on their city-ships till the end of time, while the Dark Eldar survive and thrive.

Dicey
25-01-2008, 14:28
The DE 1st turn assault is not unique and you have to be lucky to get it on your whyches, you cant just choose it.
The lord/ archon can choose it but his/her retinue cant. so he has to go solo. thereby he can be easily out manauvered and as it requires a raider it cant be used in games with escalation.

DE as slaves, you have to be joking

There is nothing wrong with DE fluff, I personally dont like modern ork fluff but this doesnt make it bad.

DE live a hedonisitc life, where power and pleasure are all that matters. They are slaanesh like. You have to remember slaanesh was born in the eldars image. the craftworld image are all the guys and gals that got out of dodge by basically being outsiders in their old race and seeing things go wrong ran away. hence there are so few eldar left. You could argue that there should be more DE in the galaxy as they are guys that didnt run from the fall but embraced it and the fact they had to use lesser beings to survice. Like humans use cows!

Bloodknight
25-01-2008, 15:17
Yep; a solo Archon is also dead meat because he relies on not getting hit back in the first place (yeah, blah, shadowfield...it is random and burns out, i.e. the Archon is more endangered by large squads and lots of weak attacks than by a power fist sergeant. I guess a lot of people do not realize that they have either to strand him or swamp him and gun him down with bolters/equivalent instead of wasting Lascannon shots on him - and then they whine ;). His 6 attacks are normally not enough to clear a kill zone all by himself wo without a trusty unit of anything as fast as him he is good.

And again: first turn assaults with anything else than an Archon are in general pure luck because you have to randomly roll the possibility to get it. Nobody whines about Kroot Mercs (because they are probably even less played) and they can and do get half of their army into CC on first turn, with quite devastating results.

The fluff is ok, albeit a little scarce.

marv335
25-01-2008, 15:56
Nobody whines about Kroot Mercs (because they are probably even less played) and they can and do get half of their army into CC on first turn, with quite devastating results.

Kroot mercs don't have a 4++ save in combat, also don't halve your Ws or cut your number of attacks.

the WWP helps too. drop it turn one, assault out of it turn 2 with no worries about return fire.

Bloodknight
25-01-2008, 16:13
I guess that has to do with a Kroot being half the price of a Wych ;)

Dicey
25-01-2008, 16:17
Yes Marv but its not a 1st turn assualt then.
The whyche weapons dont remove an attack, they remove your ability to use a second hand weapon, which the majority of models dont have. Also the whyche weapons only work against units attacking the whyches. Whyches die in the open t3 no save, they get a 4++ save in cc but a standard whych against a standard MEQ the MEQ has a 3+ save

Wyches are good assault units but they are not cheap, you need to buy them a deliverly system, you have to use them properly not just point click. they dont have p.weapons they are normaly s3 and the vets p.weapon option is wound on a 4+ not a str doubler like a p.fist which is also an effective tank killer.

Please GW leave whyches alone

sabreu
25-01-2008, 16:20
Baaltharus,

agree largely with you. Late night posting always makes seem more like a preacher though. :p Anyway, as for the Tau they are not nearly as insignificant as the DE currently. They have striving to create a new galactic empire and have a nice patch of the map where they can feasible fight any opponent and no queston is asked. The way DE are pitched, even a DE combat patrol is out of place because why would a slave gathering party bother with attacking heavy forces instead of just picking off the weak?

All in all, though, I think the Dark Eldar of Commorragh are fine. I just really think they could be expanded to include the other Eldar who aren't necessarily into BDSM as those nutters are.

marv335
25-01-2008, 16:21
to be honest an assault out of a WWP can be countes as a first turn assault as the player receiving the charge has no chance to counter the assault force.

Bloodknight
25-01-2008, 16:29
What about killing the portal bearer or making him flee? DE suffer from comparatively bad LD and setting up the portal takes a turn. Should the DE player get first turn and deploy the portal at once, just back away so they cannot reach you. Wyches with the 12" assault drug are a lot weaker in combat than their cousins with one of the other drugs. Countering DE is not so hard, unless you play a MEq army with a low model count. And in that case the scissors hit the paper, really - that is how 40K works.

sabreu
25-01-2008, 16:46
What about including Rangers in the DE list? They are undisciplined craftworlders that go out to adventure!

gorgon
25-01-2008, 17:06
What about killing the portal bearer or making him flee?

Most WWP setups I've seen have two, with one on an IC. So you have to get rid of two bearers, and one of them is really hard to target as long as another squad's nearby. Getting rid of the bearers is much, much harder than people realize when theoryhammering it.


Should the DE player get first turn and deploy the portal at once, just back away so they cannot reach you.

Figure a 12" Raider move, 2" for deployment, d6" for fleet and a 6" assault...that's 21-26" FROM the portal, which is almost certainly going to be near the center of the table...and there might be more than one.

Ideally, they don't drop them on turn 1...they wait until turn 2 so that all the reserves "queue up" for turns 2 and 3. That's usually virtually the entire army.


Countering DE is not so hard, unless you play a MEq army with a low model count. And in that case the scissors hit the paper, really - that is how 40K works.

You're underestimating DE quite a bit. They're very unforgiving to play, but when composed right and in the hands of a good players, they're a very solid army. It's true some matchups are different than others (I know my buddy's DE vs. my horde-y Tyranids is usually a total bloodbath on both sides), but that's the case for every other army too.

Now, getting things back on topic, IMO WWPs should be a central part of DE gameplay in the new codex. It's just that fluffy. However, the Daemon codex may have stolen some of that thunder...

Asentaja
25-01-2008, 17:13
Faster and more dirty tricks. I just hope that GW won't make them any easier to play, because I started DE 'cause it was the army that needed skills to play.

The current problem is that the DE have some units that are perhaps too good, and many units that are pure crap. Both nerf-bat and buff is needed.

Bloodknight
25-01-2008, 17:43
@Gorgon: Well, I play a wych cult, so my experience might differ from Kabal players - I only use one portal, that is usually enough and for the record: I have not lost in months with my DE army. Most people seemingly don't even try to come up with a counter, they just stand around and bitch that they could not do anything when they get rolled over, SM players mostly (who seemingly have never heard of a Whirlwind or Tornado Landspeeders...).

Although the funny thing is that it was even worse when I still played my shooty Kabal (a WWP army, too, only that I used two haemonculi WWP bearers instead of a single dracite; and a crapload of AP2 shooting).

gorgon
25-01-2008, 18:54
@Gorgon: Well, I play a wych cult, so my experience might differ from Kabal players - I only use one portal, that is usually enough and for the record: I have not lost in months with my DE army. Most people seemingly don't even try to come up with a counter, they just stand around and bitch that they could not do anything when they get rolled over, SM players mostly (who seemingly have never heard of a Whirlwind or Tornado Landspeeders...).

Oh okay, I gotcha. I didn't realize you're coming at it from that side of the equation.

I think a lot of the player reaction stems from low expectations. Then they get rolled, and suddenly it's WTF! It's probably a fair point that people don't back up enough vs. DE. Retreating to the degree that's required probably just seems too cowardly when they first consider it, although that's what they should be doing.

Personally, I just castle my Tyranids when I'm facing WWP DE. I just try to shrug off their first punch and then bring my numbers to bear. But then I've had some DE players do some cunning things to me when I did that too.


Although the funny thing is that it was even worse when I still played my shooty Kabal (a WWP army, too, only that I used two haemonculi WWP bearers instead of a single dracite; and a crapload of AP2 shooting).

Yeah, I think that's the interesting thing...Wych cults and Kabals are definitely different, yet both are surprisingly strong armies when handled right.

Back on topic -- once they get the fluff in better shape, the rest will fall into place. Start with the piratical angle. Why not rename Warriors as Marauders/Brigands/whatever? Some form of True Grit and a CCW option could be interesting too...seems kinda swashbuckling to have a splinter rifle in one hand and a cutlass in the other. I'm just spouting stuff off the top of my head, but you get the idea.

Of course, IMO DE have to be much more than "just pirates" too.