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jp22102000
24-01-2008, 21:03
So what would everyone like to see in the next Skaven Army book? This is just to see what people would be interested and not rumors.

1. I would like to see a hero version of a grey seer, level 1 with an option to upgrade to level 2. I always thought it was a little strange that there are only level 4 grey seers, I would assume they would start their career as an apprentice to a seer or something similar.

2. Weapon teams can join a unit just like a character can, maybe 1-2 weapon teams count as a special choice maybe? And have ratling guns fire an artillery dice to see how many shots they get or if they malfunction.

Skitter-Squeek
24-01-2008, 21:33
I do know some stuff that the Skaven will most likely get but can't say squat:(

But I would love to see Rat Ogres Get the much needed Upgrades they deserve and Ratling Guns to stay the same being as they hella nerfed in 7th edition no need to artillery dice shots, wait actually thats sort of sweet.. I like that idea haha.



Skitter Squeek

Wolfmother
24-01-2008, 21:34
no theys ould say wepons teams cant be shot within three of the parent unit!

and i think they should get rid of manstay units! pwg's ftw!

it would allow more flexibility within the army.

rattling guns are fine as it is!

they should also make wlcs shoot though hills the amount of times thats done me over!

FurryMiguell
24-01-2008, 21:36
I think the way the ratling-gun works is just exelent. And the greyseer are the most powerful of the powerful of rats, and they dont want do die, so they most likely hide 'till their good enough to blow most enemys apart...:)

But yes, I'd like to see some lvl 1/2 magican for Skaven. Always wanted to add a mage to my 1k pts battles. And cavalry!!! Horse sized rats used as riding animals for the skaven soldiers... And for gods sake, give me SOMETHING in a skaven army with crazy much armor, that you can thow into battle, and just watch them, uh, they'd be likely to flee, so that might not be a good idea... but riders, and fast cavy, and new nasty guns! A, uh, "shard gun" that works like a huge ratling gun, stationary, that fires something like a Empire helblaster, but with at least twice the chance of blowing up, somehow. for some crazy reason, i simply LOVE seeing my own army blow itself appart...

Cheers :D

sulla
25-01-2008, 21:04
I'd probably depower the warp lightning spell to s4.

I'd probably make the ratling gun more reliable (shock horror) but have to roll to hit, so that way, it would be more influenced by 'to hit' modifiers. Perhaps 2d6 s5 shots? I wouldn't have a problem increasing it's strength because it is already more vulnerable to shooting and would be hitting a lot less.

The warp lightning cannon would need LoS. Perhaps the autoflee and the marching ability would be removed from the rules.

The screaming bell would do impact hits.

Rat ogres would cost 40pts

Stormvermin's points cost would be discounted by a point and they would lose the 0-1 (but still not be a mainstay unit). Perhaps they should also be allowed 2 weapons teams to illustrate their eliteness.

The cost of assassins and warlords would go down by 20pts, master moulders and plague priests would go down by 15 and chieftains would go down by 5pts. Plague priests would have the ability to buy magic level 1 and know the pestilent breath and plague spells (although I can't imagine they would ever cast the plague spell without a whole bunch of warp tokens).

That's all I can think of for now. It's not a bad army, but players are encouraged by the rules to max out on magic and shooting. I think it just needs a little tweaking to bring it into balance. Spell list is good, items are good, hard hitters are a little overpriced as are fighter characters.

Wolfmother
25-01-2008, 22:48
The screaming bell would do impact hits.



they do!

rat ogres are crap no matters how many points they are unless you change thier stat.

im not even going to bother proving you wrong about the other stuff:rolleyes:

elotsip
25-01-2008, 23:16
bring back the doom wheel.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-01-2008, 23:20
no theys ould say wepons teams cant be shot within three of the parent unit!

and i think they should get rid of manstay units! pwg's ftw!

it would allow more flexibility within the army.

rattling guns are fine as it is!

they should also make wlcs shoot though hills the amount of times thats done me over!

I'd just like to point out it appears to be a foregone conclusion that Ratling Guns will need to roll to hit.... The Helblaster does now, as do Ogre Leadbelchers.

Granted, the Dwarf Organ Gun doesn't, but then the book was written by the cretinous Pete Haines, who is not noted for his design skills beyond 'shove in big gun hur hur hur'

theunwantedbeing
25-01-2008, 23:30
Low level plague monk mages would be nice.
Infact a low level magical ability for any of the major clans would be nice.
As would a DRAMATIC points increase in the cost of a warlock engineer(to the point of being noticably overcosted).

Ratling guns are obviously going to have to roll to hit with each of their shots.

Rat ogres do need some sort of notable upgrade,...ie having additional hand weapons due to having 2 big claws(much like harpies have) would work to make them better.
A points decrease would be nice as well, and immunity to panic..or just immunity to psychology, they are giant mutated rats afterall..or now that I think of it(after having a look at their leadership) make them leadership 10?
Frenzy sounds better though.

I cant really think of a lot else that I reckon could do with being changed much.

Except of course the doomwheel needs to return.

Sir_Lunchalot
25-01-2008, 23:46
what would I like to see... some sort of hero level mage other than a warlock engineer. sure, they're cool and zappy, but I'd like the option of an apprentice grey seer. Also, make the assassin actually capable of assassination

For core units, if stormvermin could become 0-1 per character, to represent their bodyguard status. (although there'd be nothing preventing the character from leaving the unit and running away!) I think mainstay units should stay, otherwise you'd get WAY too many people (myself included) cheesing out with multiple units of 3 globadiers or 5 night runners, so I can deploy 10 fodder units and then deploy my main army once the enemy's all set up. The biggest change I'd hope for is to make Rat ogres not suck completely. maybe give them +1LD for every 2 rat ogres in the unit, or something of the sort.

As far as new units... some sort of cavalry would be nice the giant rat riders have been mentioned, a clan moulder rat-centaur type unit would also be cool. Or GW could keep the theme and feel of a subterranean infantry force and Skaven players could use Dogs of war to compensate.

Mostly I'd like to see clanrat models that don't look like the north end of a southbound rat ogre.

Shamfrit
26-01-2008, 00:02
Cavalry is a big no, just, a huge no - yes, we lack them as a part of our force, and flyers are non-existant. People are forgetting this is an army of warpstone tainted RATmen, the notion of rats riding around on other rats is silly.



Rat Ogres would be fine however for what they are with Immune To Psychology, perhaps Regenerate??

Jack of Blades
26-01-2008, 00:36
perhaps Regenerate??

Agreed fully with the no-to-more-unit-options such as cavalry part. Regeneration? meh. They need to hit hard ;)

Shamfrit
26-01-2008, 00:50
Well, as has been discussed in great deal on The Underempire Forums, the simplest, and most beneficial in terms of point cost and power balancing, would be to give the Rat Ogres either Frenzy (which of course begs the question, should we kill the Pack Masters for doing a rat assed job?) Or to up their attacks by one as standard, as it goes, I think Frenzy would be the best bet, they're raving mad, after having been tested and mutated constantly for god knows how long, it makes sense for them to be rushing across the battle field eager to kill something, anything!

Make it a good fluff piece too, rat ogres galloping away, with the little pack masters scuttling along behind them panting, whips cracking, squeaking all the way! :skull:

Jack of Blades
26-01-2008, 01:02
Indeed! Frenzy would do them justice. But they need something more... something against armour. Perhaps...

Crushing Blows
25 Points per unit.
Some Packmasters train the Rat Ogres viciously to disintegrate armour and and often incorporate small shards of Warpstone into their claws, enchanted for this very purpose. This enables the creatures to tear through armour as easily as they rend flesh.
Each to wound roll of a 5 or 6 (or just a 6 if you feel that's more balanced, I don't really know) ignores Armour.

Shamfrit
26-01-2008, 01:16
I like where you're going, certainly something to consider. Would Poison be the simplest way of doing that? Or Killing Blow perhaps, considering they're meant to be bigger and stronger than Trolls, or at least more mobile.

What they do have over Trolls is the absence of Stupidity, I suppose that in itself speaks volumes.

Frenzy AND Killing Blow, heck, I'd pay 80 points a pop then!

Jack of Blades
26-01-2008, 01:35
Heh, yeah, let's go with that.
Imo, they need Poisoned Attacks too in addition to that they always make a single attack against an enemy model chooseable by the Skaven player before they die. THEN we have what Rat Ogres should be, imo. Of course, they'd need some kind of side effect table which on a 6 makes them even more powerful.

They'd be sort of like pumping narcotics and adrenaline into a religious zealot.. that guy won't last for very long but could wreck cars and shout nasty things at us atheists as long as he lasts. :P

Skitter-Squeek
26-01-2008, 02:39
I'd just like to point out it appears to be a foregone conclusion that Ratling Guns will need to roll to hit.... The Helblaster does now, as do Ogre Leadbelchers.

sorry to say but ratling guns will not be changed, as much as "some" people want that it won't happen . i beleive it shouldn't be changed what so ever. And if you are wondering how I know it won't be changed I asked the person who is going to write the skaven book personaly about them and he said "why would one of the best weapons in game mechanics be changed?" then added a reassuring no.


Skitter Squeek

Shamfrit
26-01-2008, 02:47
sorry to say but ratling guns will not be changed, as much as "some" people want that it won't happen . i beleive it shouldn't be changed what so ever. And if you are wondering how I know it won't be changed I asked the person who is going to write the skaven book personaly about them and he said "why would one of the best weapons in game mechanics be changed?" then added a reassuring no.


Skitter Squeek

Personally, I don't think any sort of major rules writer would dish out confirmed secrets like that, especially since they're now all over Warseer, and it's not the first time. The release of the 7th Edition book is far too far away for them to have even considered getting near the rules, fluff polishing, basic designs, templates, yes, possibly - but concrete, untellable mechanics? Please...:rolleyes:


Heh, yeah, let's go with that.
Imo, they need Poisoned Attacks too in addition to that they always make a single attack against an enemy model chooseable by the Skaven player before they die. THEN we have what Rat Ogres should be, imo. Of course, they'd need some kind of side effect table which on a 6 makes them even more powerful.

They'd be sort of like pumping narcotics and adrenaline into a religious zealot.. that guy won't last for very long but could wreck cars and shout nasty things at us atheists as long as he lasts. :P

Ah, now, the second bit has given me an idea...

How about giving the Master Moulder the ability to cast Death Frenzy...and give Rat Ogres Frenzy? Suddenly you've got a pumped up Monster Unit that has 5 attacks the piece, + Pack masters, which takes 1-2 turns to knock out a Rat Ogre in addition to combat. It would certainly give players a motive to take 6, and suddenly, boom!

Skitter-Squeek
26-01-2008, 02:59
out of the words of there mouths, the greedier a person gets the more the chance to fail. I will bet money on the ratling gun not changing.

and ratling gun is not a secret not a new secret unit.


Skitter squeek

Jack of Blades
26-01-2008, 03:24
Great idea Shamfrit :D!

sulla
26-01-2008, 05:50
rat ogres are crap no matters how many points they are unless you change thier stat.

im not even going to bother proving you wrong about the other stuff:rolleyes:

:wtf:You could never prove me wrong because I said those are the things I would do. Not what i think the Devs would do...:rolleyes:

Goat T
26-01-2008, 13:55
For the Ratlin gun, I suggest 3 things:
1) roll to hit
2) can't be targeted with shooting if within 3"
3) ratlin gun and Warp fire thrower can't stand and shoot. For its power, stand and shoot is a bit over the top.

They need to limit the amount of Jezzails, as 40 Jezzails are digusting. Skaven are a nasty army to face, but the SAD is taking it to the extreme.

Lower the points on the screaming bell. If you have to weaken the bell, so be it. But having to take a grey seer, tool him up, put it in a large unit, ends up beig 700+ points. That's too much for a generic (non-special character) choice.

I like the warp cannon the way it is.
The Rat Ogres need an extra attackor a point reduction. Right now, they aren't worth their points.

Other than that, I like the rest of the army.

FurryMiguell
26-01-2008, 14:16
I notice ppl has been talking a lot about skaven cavy since my last post, and I'm bored, so if you like it or not, here is some more:

I cant see how skaven riding other skaven would be silly. Isnt a dwarfsized rat silly enough for you? And if there is ONE race in Warhammer crazy enough to use each other as riding animals, its the skaven.

I have a converted army of gobbos, where the wolf riders (or brute riders as I call them), ride around on orcs! I just greenstuffed a gobbo on top of the orcs, stuck them on cavy bases, and off they go! They look awesome, and if there is one thing that would look cooler, its Skaven mounted on, erh, Skaven :)

Cheers:D

Shamfrit
26-01-2008, 15:51
Hi again Furry, I can certainly see where you're coming from, but, that being said, the Skaven Army is very much an infantry/war machine one. Aesthetics aside, even if it was made to be perfectly fluffy, what you'd technically get would be a gianter than normal giant rat with a clanrat on it. Mv 7, two S3 attacks, possibly Spears.You're not going to get anything more than clanrats on large rats, as cool as it might sound, the Skaven army is fast enough as it is, what's an extra 2" for an expensive, lightly armoured soon to be shot at rat?

As for 'dwarfsized' giant rats, you're forgetting rats and Skaven are two different things. A giant rat, as the model shows, is what, 4-6 times bigger than a normal rat would be? Which to me, is HUGE.

Simon Sez
26-01-2008, 16:38
Rats! Rats with wings!!!

Aflo
26-01-2008, 16:51
Skaven cavalry don't make sense in the fluff, well not the way I see it anyway. Members of THE most paranoid and insecure race on the warhammer planet that are loathe enough to put themselves in harms way when they can rely on thier own combat abilities, hardly seem the most likely candidates to put themselves on top of an even more unreliable (not to mention stupid) crazed giant rat now do they? Let alone on top of another backstabbing, traitorous skaven warrior.

fubukii
26-01-2008, 17:12
In the new skaven book all they need to do is make the nin skyre units slightly better, most of the skyre options are actually balanced in 7th ed, but it seems people still have a really bitter taste way back from 6th ed.

- Warlord - some cool new magic items would be nice, otherwise fine
- grey - I see no need for change, maybe edit the spell list a little bit, make pestilant breathe more useful.
- Warlock - is Decent as is, can throw out a huge punch but ends up killing themselves by the end of the game be it by miscasts, warp stone token(s) or warped lightning spell, people really complain about the warped lightning spell but the fact is no other spell minus ogre magic, will Slay its caster (assuming you do 6 lvl 2 wapred lightnings you should hit your self twice probably killing yourself)
- Plague priest - new items, maybe a small point decrease (like 5pts)
- Master moulder - new items better equipment, better special rule (maybe grant a unit of moulder he joins +1atk)

Clanrat - fine as is
Slave - Fine as is
PWG - needs a tweak they need to become more effective, possibly give them a solid strength of 5 or 6
Night runner - fine
Storm vermin - Need alot of bring these guys to balance, they should be upped to str4, or given better weapon options, maybe a point decrease as well.
Wpn teams - Need either a point reduction, or some form of protection
giant rats - ok as is, maybe give them a some more of a purpose besides clanrats without armor, up their points and give them the rules for fast cav, without being cav. Maybe give them the expendable rule.
Jezzails - 20 pts and low ld, but pack a punch i dont see a problem with these guys currently i think they wont change much
- Plague monks Need to become more hitty, they are supposed to be a tough combat unit but arent. Maybe make them cheaper? str4? Give the unit champion the option to upgrade to a Censerbearer? Or give the unit the option to take flails.
- gutter runners - fine
- Rat ogres i would like to see them become str 6, and get a higher ld, or a big points reduction.
- WLC fine as is, im sure they will make it less random in the new book

Plague censers - Would be nice if you didnt have to take monks to use these guys, maybe move them to special as well and bring back some other rare choices like the doom wheel.

New units - Maybe some cool skyre inventions, More mutated monsters from moulder!, Id like to see the triads come back for eshin lovers alike (maybe toned down a little though), and for clan pest, maybe some low lvl mages.

Urgat
26-01-2008, 17:17
You know what skavens should have? Something like the Ogre Hunter's sabretooth tigers. You get a pack master directing a whole bunch of big, dog-sized rats, that they can send to the enemy.
What's the point? Dunno. Maybe you could hide your packmaster in a unit, and the rats would then work as supporting units for said unit, and they would use the ranks of the unit, or whatever. Well, they would be fast rats with no riders.
Maybe that's silly.

Well, I want to see the doomwheel back, and the verminlord, and new silly warmachines like the mole machine in Shadow of the Horned Rat.
Yeah, would be cool, you know, a troop transport ala 40k, but in battle:
1) the thing goes underground on your movement phase
2) next movement phase, charge declaration: you say the malemachine charges unit X.
Scatter dice, like for an artillery shot, if you get a hit, it charges like a charriot, gives D6 S5 hits or whatever. Skavens can disembark and engage.
3)If they win (lol), they can go back in the molemachine, then back to 1)

Well, something like that.

Griefbringer
26-01-2008, 17:29
Back in WD137 there was an article of Andy Chambers Skaven army which featured a rat ogre ridden by clan moulder warlord - though for gaming purposes he treated it as a normal rat ogre.

happy_doctor
26-01-2008, 18:06
Hmmm....let me add my 2 cents here:

What I like in the current skaven book (both as a skaven player and as an opponent)

-Mainstay units:
It just makes sense that the skaven army must be comprised of the basic troops (being a horde army). I think it keeps things balanced, and so I'd like it to stay as is.

-Strength in Numbers, Life's cheap, He who runs...
Very characterful rules, nothing wrong here as far as I'm concerned. Even the potential Ld 10 isn't too much, as it tends to drop really fast, as you begin losing ranks.

-Plague Monks, Plague censers, Giant Rat packs, Night runners, Gutter Runners, Slaves:
Perfectly balanced units, perhaps making the night runners 10+ would help with the multiple small units tactics employed so often. (ie deploying 4 5-man squads before even beginning to set up the rest of your troops)

-Warp Lightning Cannon:
Sure, it can be random, but what did you expect? No problem with this, I've never had an opponent complain about it.

-Skaven Magic Lore:
All spells are well thought-out, even pestilent breath has its uses.Warp- Lightning can be overpowering, but I'll talk about this later. The only thing i'd like to see changed is the Skitterleap spell; I'd like the Clan Eshin version back. I know, scary, but it would still be a big risk, putting a character out there on his own!


What I don't like in the current skaven army book

-Ratling Guns:
Sure, they are random, but if they work, they make the game too point-and-click for my taste. A nice solution (it's been discussed all over the forums) would be to have the skaven player declare how many dice he will roll for it. That's the point of it being random!!! Requiring a to-hit roll would be too big a nerf in my opinion.

-Master Moulder:
I've hardly ever seen one in a battle, and that's because the benefit is too small for the points cost and hero slot required. I have too solutions for this:
a) Make him a unit upgrade instead of a hero, keeping his ability but with a single wound.
b)Give him some extra ability/spell/whatever

-Rat Ogres:
I use them, but I must confess that it's only for fluff-composition reasons. Otherwise, they are too much of a liability. Ld5 and low model count means that they require 2 casualties to be panicked and spread panic amidst your ranks. They hit quite hard, and work well with units of giant rats as sidekicks. Still, I think they need a boost, be it frenzy (as per the bubonic court rules), an extra attack, a Ld boost or a Master Moulder upgrade.(see above)

-Warpfire Throwers:
They should drop in points cost, they are ridiculously overpriced when compared to ratling guns. (and more risky while we're at it) Other than that, the mechanics are good.

-Rat Swarms:
Definitely need a points drop, maybe at 30 points per base. I miss the 6th edition rules...:(

-Jezzails:
Not too much of a problem here, but something should be done to counter the SAD lists. A thought I had is keep them at 1 unit per Engineer or so...4 units of 10 in 2000 points is scary and boring.

-Stormvermin:
I like them alot and use them regularly. The 3+ save is great, as is the magic banner option. However, they require a small points reduction and getting the shield as standard equipment. To be honest, S4 seems as too much for rats...Maybe give them great weapons as an option?Still, I would be happy to see them drop at 7-8 points.

-Poison Wind Globadiers:
Nothing wrong here, if you ask me! Better than a unit of empire archers... I'd up the model limit to 5+ (right now units of 4 can ruin everyone's day without even the slightest chance of panic). As for effectiveness, ask the last dragon killed by a unit of 9 of them!(large targets are hit on 3's!!)

-Magic Items:
I'd like to see some nearly useless items amended:
Skalm(too pricey), Blade of Nurglitch (give it poison at least!), Dwarf Slayer (I don't see the point of preferring it over the Desolate Blade...), The Headsplitter (seriously.....a sling??), Rust armour (too pricey, not effective),

forgottenlor
26-01-2008, 18:12
The master moulder should be turned into a mage, I totally agree with Shamfrint as noone ever uses him as he is the least attractive warrior choice.
I actually like the plague priest as is, he is always my second fighty hero choice after the bsb.
I would give stormvermin strength 4 (who cares if they are more expensive) and plaguemonks the option of taking flails.

Dead Man Walking
26-01-2008, 18:14
Currently the only skeven themed army that works is Skyre, they need to make the other clans workable on the table as well. Eshin, Moulder and Pesty should be able to compete.

Looking at all the last books the models that no one fielded will get a bump and the units that were over used will get gimped slightly. Hopefully this means I can run into a skyre player and not take 30-40 wounds a turn.

Wolfmother
26-01-2008, 19:08
oh plaufe monks that cause fear!

and have regen!

Shamfrit
26-01-2008, 19:32
Why...on earth...would you give Plague Monks Fear?

Really, I mean, what good would a unit that has to charge, is tooled to the screaming death to deliver a mighty unit breaking blow in the 1st Turn of Combat do if any positive points at all? Your frenzied unit would charge, enemy flees, and whoops, failed charge. Leaving your weak and frail Monks out in the open with nothing to do but take a round of magic and missiles.

And giving them Regen would completely make the negative side of the Plague Censer most likely overpowered.

Grimtuff
26-01-2008, 19:47
out of the words of there mouths, the greedier a person gets the more the chance to fail. I will bet money on the ratling gun not changing.


Erm, that was the reason that they considered the RG a failure as a weapon. Your average player is not greedy and is perfeclty happy to stop on about 10 hits.

W0lf
26-01-2008, 20:07
'Why...on earth...would you give Plague Monks Fear?'

A horde of diseased rats that are falling apart and running towards you wielding large weapons like maniacs.

Oh yeah they arnt in the least bit scary....

Gimp
26-01-2008, 20:28
i would like to see more fluff about the Warlord clans like Clan Mors and Clan Rictus (spelling) :eyebrows:

Fellblade
26-01-2008, 20:38
There's really not a lot things I think need to be fixed in the skaven book.

Ratling guns really do need to change, all auto-hit shooting weapons are broken by nature. In my opinion, ratling guns should be 3d6 shots at range 15". No long range penelty. If doubles are rolled all the shots are at -1 to hit. If triples are rolled the gun is destroyed.

Rat ogres need to be useful because right now they're probably the worst unit in the book. I'd like to see the upgrades from the moulder army list for rat ogres. Maybe either the mutations or the armored rat ogres. If nothing changes, they ought to at least get their cost dropped almost by half.

I'd like to see Stormvermen a little more useful too. Right now they're just overpriced clanrats. It would be nice if they returned to their base str of 4, but I'm not holding my breath. I sort of expect them to get bumped to specials and the 0-1 removed since that seems to be a new trend for the books.



Those are really the only things I see as problems right now with skaven. Other things I'd like to see added/expanded on are:

Ability to make Eshin/Moulder/etc lists. You choose your general and your mainstay unit is based off his clan. If you take a master assassin as the general, your mainstay are nightrunners and opens up some extra options for unit types. Same with the other clans. Just a way to bring back some of the flavor of the alternate lists without the special rules and characters that caused problems.

I'd like more variety in wizard choices. Engineers are okay but they get boring after awhile. Sure, warplightning is powerful but I'd like some variety in my spells now and then. Maybe bring back some of the old Skaven spells like Crack's Call, Blaze(?), and Curse of the Horned Rat. As an alternitive, allow the Eshin/Moulder/etc casters be used to add some varity in the spellcasting department.

I'd like to see assassins returned to unit upgrades instead of being characters. Maybe keep the character ones if you want to hid him in a different unit or let him operate on his own.

I think it'd be neat to have clan moulder monsters as rares. They'd have a base profile and be allowed to take a certain amount of upgrades like extra strength, attacks, and so on. Moulder is always gathering up monsters for experiments and war in the fluff, but we never get to see them in game!

Giant rats being expendable again would be nice.

Urgat
26-01-2008, 20:42
'Why...on earth...would you give Plague Monks Fear?'

A horde of diseased rats that are falling apart and running towards you wielding large weapons like maniacs.

Oh yeah they arnt in the least bit scary....

A hundred ratmen running at you should be scary too.
A horde of hulking warriors twice as tall as you, with black armours and glowing eyes inside a horned helmet running towards you shooting "blood!!!" should be scary too.
A dozen of giant spiders as big as horses led by an even bigger spider, big as a charriot, raining down on you from the nearest cliff should be scary too.

You just can't give fear to everything that looks a bit scary in warhammer, or there would be no end to it.
Excepted pointy-eared lions, of course. Pointy-eared lions are SCARY.

Shamfrit
26-01-2008, 20:44
Because Wolf, on that merit alone Witch Elves would cause fear, but for the sake of the units, they are ferocious yes, diseased yes, but not THAT scary, compared to say, Rat Ogres, which is the only other thing in the army causing fear at the moment.

Once you give them Fear, Frenzy and Regenerate, they'd go up to like, 450/500 for 20, which is absurd.

It's all good picking what we'd like, but we have to think about how such changes unbalance the game for us, and for other players.

Making dying monks Gods is not the way to go.

(Fell, really like the Ratling Gun Suggestion, top notch!)

Welf VIII.
26-01-2008, 21:02
From what I have seen on the tables here in Germany Skayen are no longer a horde army anymore, they are a gunline with lots of reliable shooting troops.

What should be done?

Improve or lower the costs for Rat Ogres and Storm Vermin, Rat Swarms. BTW: Never seen Night Runners been used here.

Tone down Ratling Guns (far better than Warpfamers), Lightning Canons and Jezzails (why are Jezzails treated as skirmishers?).

TheMav80
26-01-2008, 22:33
Create some better looking clanrat models and make them cheaper to buy. :evilgrin:

Seriously, I'd be doing a Skaven army right now if it didn't cost so fething much.

chrismay101
26-01-2008, 23:10
Doom Wheel and Vermin Lord

fubukii
27-01-2008, 04:20
the reason jezzails are treated as skirmishers is bc they have the skirmish special rule, in addtion its a disadvantage as they can not add a rank bonus to their ld. And As for the point that wind globes are better then empire hand gunners thats crazy, ALmost anything they are effective against have to far of a movement to be shot at.

Ward.
27-01-2008, 04:53
I'll put my vote in for a larger box of decicated slaves.

Ratlling guns shouldn't change too much as with the steady increase of units able to get ward saves against shooting, they'll be marginally less effetive by the time the redo comes around.

The doomwheels a cool idea but i'd like to see the way it's described as working altered.

forgottenlor
27-01-2008, 05:13
One could give plague monks regenerate on a "6", which is something like the wild orc war paint. That actually would be okay, though I truly think there are enough skaven units which win solely with CR bonuses. Skaven need a bit more hitting power. I would allow them flails, or maybe give them a disease ability (I don't know 1w3 strength 2 hits no armor save against the engaged enemy unit (maybe thats best for a banner though).

Rat ogres have as I see it have 5 main problems:

Not enough hitting power against tough/armored units
No missle defence
crappy leadership
No cr bonus, which makes them also not great against infantry
too expensive.

I think changing the point value alone to 40 points will not make them that much more attractive. I would consider the following other alternatives: some sort of save, armour piercing or killing blow, frenzy or an extra attack.

I think assassins are okay as is, except they are far too expensive. I would reduce the point cost by 20, I think.

Duke Georgal
27-01-2008, 13:34
The skaven book is the one army that needs a total overhaul. GW should approach this mess as a blank piece of paper and ignore everything that has ever been done before with this army.

They should redesign it as a hoard of diseased rats. That is all, period. That will give the army flavor. Eliminate any reference to warpstone and magic.

And above all, make the army fun to play AGAINST!

Rat ogres - - - GONE!
Bell - - - GONE!
Wap Lightning Cannon - - - GONE!

Well, you get the idea.

-Florida Kevin

Shamfrit
27-01-2008, 14:36
The skaven book is the one army that needs a total overhaul. GW should approach this mess as a blank piece of paper and ignore everything that has ever been done before with this army.

They should redesign it as a hoard of diseased rats. That is all, period. That will give the army flavor. Eliminate any reference to warpstone and magic.

And above all, make the army fun to play AGAINST!

Rat ogres - - - GONE!
Bell - - - GONE!
Wap Lightning Cannon - - - GONE!

Well, you get the idea.

-Florida Kevin

I might consider accepting this, if it wasn't for two key reasons.

Firstly, Skaven are not diseased. Only Clan Pestilens is diseased by any measure, because of it's contact and excursion early on in Skaven history to the jungles of Lustria. What did you mean, make the entire army Plague Monks and Censer Bearers? :rolleyes:

The Bell is an integral part of Skaven Society. For starters, a bell MADE Skaven!

Reworking yes, but to take out everything Skaven's become? :wtf:

theunwantedbeing
27-01-2008, 14:56
Better rat ogres are something they certainly need, be it some way to be immune to panic or simply a higher leadership.
Chaos spawn for example are mindless beings so get leadership 10, rat ogres are similarly mindless(although they do have some mind so leadership 8 or 9 seems more appropriate).
Frenzy as well, but this will make them less reliable....hence why I favour allowing them to count as having additional hand weapons and the higher leadership over straight frenzy.

Jezzails are perhaps a little too reliable....although their low leadership does make it nice and easy for them to panic. A cap on the unit size would be a good way to restrict how damagaing they can be.
They are pretty expensive as well of course.

Weapon teams....rolling to hit is a given, and not too bad really as often you'll be able to get a good 10 shots in, as they are move-or-fire weapons(and will likely stay as them).
So they aren't going to be too nerfed by needing to roll to hit...it alsoallows you to keep them as being able to roll dice as they see fit, instead of declaring a number of dice to fire at you.
As for the warpfire thrower, perhaps making it a move and fire weapon where you have to roll an artillery dice and add that to the range of the weapon (and bad things happen when you misfire of course).(ie. it explodes using the big 5" template and everything under gets burnt).

The doomwheel needs to make a comeback, as a rare slot or possibly even as a mount for a warlord or warlock engineer.(not keen on the latter as it means more warlock engineers....)

Moulder troops need to be able to mutate things more easily, be it themselves(which would be cool...they eat warpstone and gain attributes for that turn, although at the cost of suffering harsh penalties) ie. they get +1 strength,frenzy and hatred for a turn..on a roll of a 1 they suffer a wound instead.
Something to make them cool like that, but not overpowered and somewhat unreliable.

Not sure what else...the screaming bell as an option for a unit would be cool, for a warlord or similar instead of just the grey seer.
As a stormvermin upgrade perhaps.

New models, more akin to the images in the skaven book of lean looking rats, as opposed to the wierd giant hands things we currently have. Certainly possible considering the new skeletons are incredibly thin looking so skaven of that thickness should be very easy.

FurryMiguell
27-01-2008, 15:06
woah. lots of posts since last time... But anyway, I still think Clanrats on big rats would be cool! I dont really care how it would be unfitting, cause this was just a thread where you was to say whay you was hoping for in the new armybook, and I think rat riders would be way cool! I'm going to convert some, whatever you say, and add them to my army as, uh, I'll come up with something... :)

Cheers:D

Shamfrit
27-01-2008, 17:10
Lol, of course Migell, everyone's entitled to their opinion, as much as we're entitled to say why we don't agree. I think I'd use them if they were released, but sparingly.

As for converting, it's what Wysiwyg and Counts As were made for :D

I'd like to see pictures if you do manage it though, you might convert me to the idea :)

happy_doctor
27-01-2008, 17:50
you might convert me to the idea

Was the pun intended? :p


I, too, believe that the new army book will spurr players towards the direction of units and options least used in the current army list.. Which is a good thing, as far as I am concerned.
I'd like to see the return of the Vermin Lord (mine is doubling as a skaven giant at the moment) and the Doomwheel (it's doubling as a WLC)

Jezzails could be 5-10, and lose skirmisher status. That would make them easier to take out by flyers, and balance things a bit.

Fellblade
27-01-2008, 18:30
If people can't break jezzail units they aren't playing the game right. 2-3 shooting or magic casualties causes a ld5 panic check, at absolute best ld7. You don't need to throw flyers or whatever else into them, just take a couple ranged shots and problem solved. Yes, its harder for some armies, or perhaps more correctly, some army builds to handle them, but thats just the way the game is.



So they aren't going to be too nerfed by needing to roll to hit...it alsoallows you to keep them as being able to roll dice as they see fit, instead of declaring a number of dice to fire at you.Auto-hit shooting is broken, no matter how you look at it. Organ guns, salamanders, ratling guns, old hellblasters... all broken. No matter what else they do with the skaven book, ratling guns need a hit roll and in doing so they'll need other adjustments as well even if its just the cost.

Wolfmother
27-01-2008, 19:58
if nurgle cause fear so should plauge monks!

Stonerkid655321
27-01-2008, 20:09
Enginners only be allowed 25 pts of magic items since they are not full wizzards.

Make gatlings cheaper but not as effective. Or same but only one per 2 units.

Make warpfire hrowers cheaper.

Jezzails maby droped a point of two. Skaven dont get dragons or calvery, so its fair they get the tools to beat them.

Rat ogres need to be a lot cheaper or at least a bit cheper and saying they are immune to panic or something. Ld5!

Maby keep the cannons the same but say they cant see through terrain or set up in terrain.

Make plague monks 6 points but come with extra hand weapons.

Have clanrats include spears as standard. Everyone complains that full ranked rats are as good as elves, but they ferget that often they will lose ranks, also they are still rallying on ld 6 with a muscian, not 9 like the elves.

Leave slaves as they are. Skaven dont get calvery or huge monsters.

Bring back the horned rat! And give him powers to help skaven in close combat.

Plague censors reduced to 15 points or say the censor givesward saves to shooting because of the warstone smoke? There is a lot of automatic shoting weapons out there and they are mostly the most expensive target i the army.

Stonerkid655321
27-01-2008, 20:18
if nurgle cause fear so should plauge monks!

Dont give them ideas! They might drop frenzy, which would make them useless.

Wolfmother
27-01-2008, 20:21
Enginners only be allowed 25 pts of magic items since they are not full wizzards.

Make gatlings cheaper but not as effective. Or same but only one per 2 units.

Make warpfire hrowers cheaper.

Jezzails maby droped a point of two. Skaven dont get dragons or calvery, so its fair they get the tools to beat them.

Rat ogres need to be a lot cheaper or at least a bit cheper and saying they are immune to panic or something. Ld5!

Maby keep the cannons the same but say they cant see through terrain or set up in terrain.

Make plague monks 6 points but come with extra hand weapons.

Have clanrats include spears as standard. Everyone complains that full ranked rats are as good as elves, but they ferget that often they will lose ranks, also they are still rallying on ld 6 with a muscian, not 9 like the elves.

Leave slaves as they are. Skaven dont get calvery or huge monsters.

Bring back the horned rat! And give him powers to help skaven in close combat.

Plague censors reduced to 15 points or say the censor givesward saves to shooting because of the warstone smoke? There is a lot of automatic shoting weapons out there.

yes i agree completely with this! it make sth skaven army more bareable but dosent skew my army over a tall.

oh and erlier i think i saw some one saying to limit jezzails to the amount of warlocks rofl n00b any good skyre army has 3 warlocks even my 1k army!

and nobodys mentioned gutter runner! there filth

why does every one want to skrew over rattling guns!

even if they cant be picked out they are still hella expensive for something that can(will) just kill itself!

Shamfrit
27-01-2008, 20:51
Enginners only be allowed 25 pts of magic items since they are not full wizzards.


All heroes have 50 points, they wouldn't change that for one model.

happy_doctor
27-01-2008, 20:52
oh and erlier i think i saw some one saying to limit jezzails to the amount of warlocks rofl n00b any good skyre army has 3 warlocks even my 1k army!


I'd watch my tone if I were you... And using netspeak/"leet"speak doesn't help anyone understand your arguments...;)

What I was suggesting was some way to tone down the SAD army variant, the so-called skryre list ( If anyone dared call this a "themed" army, they'd be in trouble).

Unfortunately, I don't play 1k games, so I can't comment on your army selection-although it has to be said that I find it terribly unsporting.

To be honest, jezzails seem to be the least of the skaven army list problems. However, it's never a happy match when i'm faced with 2 WLC, 40 Jezzails, 4 Ratling guns and a heap of magic at 2K... (oh, and it doesn't say much about my opponent's strategic skills as well) Limiting that to just 30 jezzails and 3 ratling guns would be a first good step. (perhaps limit it even further by cramming all skryre choices in the special section??)

You can disagree with anyone on these forums, but in a polite and civilised way. That includes providing valid points to support your opinion and respecting others, be it through the way you write (in plain-old english, not in SMS-speak) or the way you address them.

P.S.As for the n00b subject,I've been playing for the bigger part of the last two decades. Plus, I'm not the one suggesting giving regeneration and fear to plague monks...;)

Shamfrit
27-01-2008, 21:01
Unfortunately, I don't play 1k games, so I can't comment on your army selection-although it has to be said that I find it terribly unsporting.


Not to mention it taking up 60% of your army points, as well as limiting you to a very, very meager 6 Ld. For what, 2/3 hard castings of Warp Lightning, mostly dispelled, and Dispel Scrolled?

What people need to realise is, taking the full complement of Jezzails at 2k, not only takes up a stupid amount of points, but it severaly limits the size and stability of your army. I mean, great, if you can get the kills in quick enough, but if your opponent can raise, ward or move towards you quick enough like, let's say, O&G can, that shooting line suddenly runs away, leaving you with...well, 2 clanrat units and the odd groups of slaves.

And a miscast on your Grey Seer?

Game Over.

Now people have started to realise SAD is over, they're looking at the rest of the army and going :wtf: What's all this 'fighting' 'flanking' 'movement' tosh, and having trouble.

Skitter-Squeek
27-01-2008, 22:08
The skaven book is the one army that needs a total overhaul. GW should approach this mess as a blank piece of paper and ignore everything that has ever been done before with this army.

They should redesign it as a hoard of diseased rats. That is all, period. That will give the army flavor. Eliminate any reference to warpstone and magic.

And above all, make the army fun to play AGAINST!

Rat ogres - - - GONE!
Bell - - - GONE!
Wap Lightning Cannon - - - GONE!

Well, you get the idea.

-Florida Kevin

Wow someone has some bad taste in there mouth, one too many losses I take it? And that makes total sense for them in a Business aspect! Get rid of tons of stuff and years of fluff making that cost them tons of money and spend tons more to make a whole new army! Come give me a frikken break:wtf:. I personally cannot wait for the new army. As far as Rat ogres go think of what they have modled on them, you think they put a warpfire thrower on one just for looks?;)

SKitter Squeek

sulla
27-01-2008, 23:53
if nurgle cause fear so should plauge monks!

Probably the other way round. Nurgle troops shouldn't cause fear, they should be tougher, like clan pestilence. Fear causing is a complete failure on nurgle troops. A hugely expensive mark that can't be capitolised on because the troops can never outnumber anyone...



why does every one want to skrew over rattling guns!

even if they cant be picked out they are still hella expensive for something that can(will) just kill itself!

Because they don't work like machine guns, they work like magic missiles? It's acceptable for magic, but why should a ratling gun be able to pick out 5 wayawatchers/ chameleon skinks skirmishing at long range in a building with perfect accuracy when other shooters can't? Why should it be able to shoot round corners and kill a whole unit even though it can only see one trooper? Why should 5 cav charging a unit of jezzails be able to make it through the hail of fire and attack them but it is guaranteed death vs the cheaper ratling gun? Just make it work like a gun.

marv335
28-01-2008, 00:05
frankly, the best way (in my opinion) to fix the ratling gun, is to have the skaven player declare how many dice he is rolling before any dice are thrown.

theunwantedbeing
28-01-2008, 00:07
Or make it roll to hit...

fubukii
28-01-2008, 03:22
if it requires a roll to hit they should make it less likely to have a mishap, in addition a point reduction and some sort of way to protect it would be in order.

Fellblade
28-01-2008, 03:57
What I was suggesting was some way to tone down the SAD army variant, the so-called skryre list
If something can be broken or exploited, people will do it. No matter how you write the rules someone, somewhere will find a way to abuse it. I'd be against anything that hinders normal skaven armies just for the sake of gimping one build. Things like engineers losing magic item allowance, downgrading jezzails, less effective warplightning, and so forth aren't a fix for the army book as a whole, they're a knee-jerk reaction to, well, jerks. If you're tired of facing the SAD armies, just don't play those people.

I really think engineers are fine how they are. Honestly, since they aren't wizards I wouldn't have a problem with them wearing heavy armor. Likewise, since they aren't true wizards I don't see a need for them to use warpstone tokens. I don't think Warplightning needs to change at all. Its strong and its got a drawback.

What I would do is remove it from the Grey Seer's list of spells and replace it with a different magic missile more in like with those from other spell lists (2d6 str4, etc).

I think jezzails are fine. They are very good at punching through armor or monsters, they're a bit pricey when fielding bigger units and compete for limited special slots, and they're fairly easy to scare off. Since skaven really don't have any other way of dealing with heavy armor or tough targets you can't really gimp them down, but due to how powerful they can be you can't really buff them up much more. About all they need is some rule clarification as to how to handle them. Right now it says to treat them as calvary which means they can't enter buildings.

Censor bearers don't need to get any cheaper. They're the best unit in the list right now and worth every point. Maybe give them back their cloud of smoke rule that made them -1 to hit with shooting, but that's about it.


why does every one want to skrew over rattling guns!Simple, because they're broken. Auto-hit shooting = broken, no matter what army has it. Before 7th their high point cost was mitigated by them not being able to be picked off by any bored shooter. Now they're a bit overpriced due to their increased vulnerability, but still broken due to their auto-hit nature. Make them roll to hit, reduce their rate of fire, cut their cost, and maybe even let some units take more than one weapon team.
3d6 shots, 15" range, no distance penalty, doubles = shooting at -1 to hit, triples = team destroyed, maybe 35pts for them. Clanrats can take 1 team, stormvermen can take 2 teams.

Warpfire teams could probably be cut to 50. Both weapon teams should 'count as' a skirmishing unit of two US1 models rather than a single US2 model, this would restore the -1 to hit shooting penalty. In the realm of wishful thinking, they'd get their 4th ed(?) heavy armor back, giving the team an armor save of 4+, but still only having a single wound.

Rat ogres need a lot of help. For starters, someone I was talking to today suggested maybe upping their packmaster count to 2:1. That would help give them a little extra padding in terms of panic checks and also form a cleaner block 40mmx60mm. I wouldn't mind of RO ignored panic tests from shooting/magic casualties until they lost their packmasters, or if an upped PM count, ignored it so long as there were at least as many PM as RO. Whatever the case, my experience with RO is they work well 1:10 games, they're passable 3:10 games, and a liability the other 6:10 games. By passable, I mean they earn back at least 75-110% of their point value, for example a 200pt unit earns at least 150-220pts. Most of the time they're lucky if they earn ANY points at all, usually they're just a 100% loss.

Also, if RO were a more attractive option they'd compete with jezzail slots which would help erode the lure of SAD armies. You don't need to gimp SAD components, you simply need to make the fundamental army more appealing. Right now, skaven can't melee for crap which is bad for a 'hoard' army. Once upon a time, back when all models cost more points, there was a pretty significant advantage to throwing tons of cheep skaven into close combat. These days, model costs are low enough that everyone except maybe chaos can afford a full 3 ranks with a buffer rank behind them. Skaven's advantage of numbers has been lost so they're forced to rely on their poor fighting skills or over the top shooting/magic. If GW did more to support the hoard style of fighting, you'd restore the army's theme and degrade the relitive value of SAD without gimping any elements of the list.

sulla
28-01-2008, 04:47
if it requires a roll to hit they should make it less likely to have a mishap, in addition a point reduction and some sort of way to protect it would be in order.

I'd happily give it s5 if it had to roll to hit. This would at least give it some punch to compensate for the innaccuracy. The power level of the thing is not really the problem. It's that it doesn't make sense the way it functions. it is far too accurate. It shouldn't function like a magic missile.

fubukii
28-01-2008, 04:50
i agree that auto hitting is insanely good, but idk the organ gun still auto hits so i dont think its too prepostrous for the ratling gun to auto hit as well.

Nigredo
28-01-2008, 06:26
I wonder why you never ever considered that the Skaven will most definately get their own miscast table.... . I mean which army in WHFB is more predestined for a miscast table, yet doesn´t have one?

Fellblade
28-01-2008, 06:43
but idk the organ gun still auto hitsSadly, the dwarf book was the last 6th Ed book before they rethought the idea of auto-hit guns. Enter the Helblaster, the 7th ed 'next-gen' of former auto-hitters.

FurryMiguell
28-01-2008, 07:23
The ratling has a habbit of blowing itself appart. i dont see why it would not auto-hit (just beeing sceptical to others ideas, since everyone is to mine:P), or at least they'd have to make it easyer to fire (i mean harder to missfire), which would take away a lot of the Skaven idea (thats my opinion).

And Slaves should have packmasters! I dont see how a buch of Slaves would charge into any enemy around, without at least some direct motivation. And i think it would look cool if they had a guy with whip at the back telling them where to go and what to do.

Addition to my last post: Ive begun the conversion of Skaven riders. Looks cool, but when i rethink the idea, they dont seem to match the theme of my army. I admit deafeat:)

Cheers:D

ZeroTwentythree
28-01-2008, 19:31
First off, I'd like to say that I pretty much agree with every word Fellblade wrote.


Some of my quick thoughts, typed up at lunchtime...


Special Rules:

He Who Runs..., Strength in Numbers, Life is Cheap, Lead from the Back... I think that the current special rules generally work well and are very much in character with the army. Also in character, they each have both a positive and negative effect on the army. Warpstone Weapons has actually become more powerful as the rules for Daemonic Legions and Forest Spirits have come into play, and has no down side. It's my hope that all of these remain.




Core:

Mainstay rule: I like this rule, and wouldn't mind seeing it changed so that there must be more of the mainstay unit than others, though I think this would be a bit over-restrictive compared to other army books (especially with an increasing drift away from basic "core" troops in other armies.) This could work OK if they gave different options for different clans.

I think most of the core choices work well as they are. If slaves were increased by just a single point, I don't think they would be taken by anyone. Citing the goblin nerf doesn't hold water. Just because they screwed up in one list doesn't mean they should screw up another.

Stormvermin: Too pricey, and this is partially due to the overall benefit of the HW+shield bonus. This has changed the balance of other army books as well (like Empire swordsmen vs. halberdiers.) They need a decrease in cost and/or something to make them more worthwhile. Halberds or some other way of giving them S4 attacks isn't bad, per se, since skaven struggle to deal with high T and/or armoured troops wiht anything other than Skyryre troops (jezzails, ratlings, engineers, etc.) So a more "hordey" option would be nice.

Rat Swarms: Well, swarms generally suck, but the giant rats really have little going for them at, IMHO.

Weapon Teams: Assuming we see the ratling gun required to roll to-hit, like the leadbelchers and hellblaster, they will need something to balance that out. As it stands, they are fragile and easy VP for anyone with even a small amount of shooting or magic. Their habit of taking out neighboring skaven troops when they missfire adds to their risk. Either decrease the points or let them shelter near friendly units again, or keep the auto-hit.



Special:

Gutter runners, plague monks and jezzails all work well.

Plague Monks: They seem almost like an alternate clanrat choice, though, since thier WS3 & S3 means that they roll a whole lot of dice but don't necessarily do a whole lot against anything tougher or more armoured than the most basic troops. I've stated elsewhere that I feel this unit is currently more a psychological factor than an actual effective one. Fixes? Maybe an option for flails?

Rat Ogres: There are already a ton of good suggestions for rOgres, both in this thread and elsewhere. The only one I'll comment on at this moment is frenzy: bad idea.



Rare:

My main beef is that there isn't much worth taking. Two options, one of which is sort of a "detachment" for plague monks. The other is an artillery piece of questionable value, useful only in certain situations, provided you roll well enough and you opponent choses not to charge it with anything as weak as a blind elderly gnoblar to make it run off the board.



Characters:

I'll get to these later.




Old Stuff:

Doomwheel: Good riddance. Keep the WLC instead. I really think the "comedy" madness of the 'wheel is dead and buried.

Verminlord: I don't personally care. I like it in concept, but it was just never my thing.

Wolf-Rats: Bring them back. Skaven are supposed to be a "fast" army, yet get outmanuvered by just about everyone else. Plus I'm in favor of anything to bring clan Moulder back into the game. (Ratagators anyone?)



Others:

What about a moulder build-a-beast. Start with a basic stat line, then add an option to make it either faster, stronger, regenerateyer, etc. It doesn't have to be complex. Even just limiting it to ONE optional upgrade could be cool.



Magic:

I agree with the general sentiment that a non-engineer low-level spellcaster would be nice, but I don't like the way this has previously been suggested with each clan having a LV1 spellcaster with a specific spell. I think a seer-adept with randomly generated spells would be within the realm of believability.

Warp Lightning: In SAD/skryre armies, I can see where people get annoyed with it. But in that case, it's no different than other magic-heavy armies. In a "balannced" skaven list it really isn't out of line. Spells like Firey Blast & Distilation of Molten Silver, etc. are easier to cast, have the same range, cause the same number of hits, are flaming attacks, and have NO chance of backfiring and killing the caster. But they are S4 instead of S5.

1 point of strength vs. harder to cast and 1 in 6 chance per "number of hits" die roll of hitting the caster instead, and not a flaming attack.

There are plenty of stong spells, WL is one of them, but it comes with its risks.

Wolfmother
28-01-2008, 19:52
Dont give them ideas! They might drop frenzy, which would make them useless.

id rather ahve fear then frezy they usually just get baited if there frezied!


All heroes have 50 points, they wouldn't change that for one model.

what about dark elf beastmasters?


I'd watch my tone if I were you... And using netspeak/"leet"speak doesn't help anyone understand your arguments...

What I was suggesting was some way to tone down the SAD army variant, the so-called skryre list ( If anyone dared call this a "themed" army, they'd be in trouble).

Unfortunately, I don't play 1k games, so I can't comment on your army selection-although it has to be said that I find it terribly unsporting.

To be honest, jezzails seem to be the least of the skaven army list problems. However, it's never a happy match when i'm faced with 2 WLC, 40 Jezzails, 4 Ratling guns and a heap of magic at 2K... (oh, and it doesn't say much about my opponent's strategic skills as well) Limiting that to just 30 jezzails and 3 ratling guns would be a first good step. (perhaps limit it even further by cramming all skryre choices in the special section??)

You can disagree with anyone on these forums, but in a polite and civilised way. That includes providing valid points to support your opinion and respecting others, be it through the way you write (in plain-old english, not in SMS-speak) or the way you address them.

P.S.As for the n00b subject,I've been playing for the bigger part of the last two decades. Plus, I'm not the one suggesting giving regeneration and fear to plague monks...

why does evreyone think fourty jezzails is good ten is good but why 40 there good at taking out hevy cavelry giants ect but what army (bar brets) has 15 heavy cavalry models you need to kill first turn that the warp lightning canon wont take out.

and why shouldnt plauge monks have regen and fear maby it would steer people away from doing the dreaded sad list!


The skaven book is the one army that needs a total overhaul. GW should approach this mess as a blank piece of paper and ignore everything that has ever been done before with this army.

They should redesign it as a hoard of diseased rats. That is all, period. That will give the army flavor. Eliminate any reference to warpstone and magic.

And above all, make the army fun to play AGAINST!

Rat ogres - - - GONE!
Bell - - - GONE!
Wap Lightning Cannon - - - GONE!

Well, you get the idea.

-Florida Kevin

wicked take away them three incase you havent been reading there not the things people have been complinging about!:wtf:

Wolfmother
28-01-2008, 20:52
and i bet gw will **** me off again like they did with the vc book, by not bringing out new black knight models, and not bring out plastic jezzails!

Scelerat
28-01-2008, 21:34
Skaven cavalry don't make sense in the fluff, well not the way I see it anyway. Members of THE most paranoid and insecure race on the warhammer planet that are loathe enough to put themselves in harms way when they can rely on thier own combat abilities, hardly seem the most likely candidates to put themselves on top of an even more unreliable (not to mention stupid) crazed giant rat now do they? Let alone on top of another backstabbing, traitorous skaven warrior.

Well actually, I think it makes perfect sense. The Moulder Clan is all the time scouting and patrolling the Northern Wastes in search for even more crazed, mutated and destructive animals. Don't you think that riding an animal, a fast one, would be a HUGE advantage when pursuing another possibly fast animal? Or a good way to avoid having to walk for miles and miles?
I'd make them light cav. The only thing I have against them is that I feel the army list has enough types of troops.

But the Clan Moulder is a constant source of disappointment: so these fabled "mutation masters", the wealthiest clan, only have to offer to a general what? Lousy rat ogres and what seems to be poodles with bad haircuts? Where are those "terrible monsters", those "hideous abominations" they constantly talk about in the fluff? Pft!

ZeroTwentythree
28-01-2008, 22:05
Skaven cavalry don't make sense in the fluff, well not the way I see it anyway. Members of THE most paranoid and insecure race on the warhammer planet that are loathe enough to put themselves in harms way when they can rely on thier own combat abilities, hardly seem the most likely candidates to put themselves on top of an even more unreliable (not to mention stupid) crazed giant rat now do they? Let alone on top of another backstabbing, traitorous skaven warrior.


Warp fire throwers, munching warpstone, etc. don't make much sense either. If they're so worried about their safety, whey would they use such things? In fact, why would they go to battle at all?

You have to balance their cowardice with their ambition and insanity. :evilgrin:

Not that I'm saying that they should or shouldn't get cavalry. I'm just saying that it wasn't a good enough reason. Aside from that, fluff is always changing according to the designers whims.




The skaven book is the one army that needs a total overhaul. GW should approach this mess as a blank piece of paper and ignore everything that has ever been done before with this army.

They should redesign it as a hoard of diseased rats. That is all, period. That will give the army flavor. Eliminate any reference to warpstone and magic.

And above all, make the army fun to play AGAINST!

Rat ogres - - - GONE!
Bell - - - GONE!
Wap Lightning Cannon - - - GONE!

Well, you get the idea.

-Florida Kevin


That has got to be one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever heard. Or flamebait.

Mmmm... tasty, tasty flamebait...

:evilgrin:

Aryakas
28-01-2008, 22:11
I agree that Stormvermin are a bit too expensive for what they do though I'm not sure what the best fix for this would be (changing their options or making them cost less.)



and why shouldnt plauge monks have regen and fear maby it would steer people away from doing the dreaded sad list!


I think a less horrible solution would be to just not play against people who use SaD...

FurryMiguell
29-01-2008, 09:29
I like stormies as they are. I always enjoy throwing them into CC just after a unit of slaves has been fried in CC by my own warpfire thrower:) (read the shor story in the rear of the Skaven book. gives you lots of good ideas).
h
I just had a thought. Wouldnt it be cool if the creatures displayed in(oops dont remember which) a white dwarf magazine a while ago was to be in the armybook with full rules? the tunnelingbeasts, and skaven hydra thingy. awesome!! That would be for Moulder clan, but it might not be so balanced with the current rules, so some adjustments has to be made. Just a thought, i would really like playing with one of those in a battle:) (hey! im gona make one!:p)

Cheers:D

Devil-Dice
29-01-2008, 11:17
In relation to the skaven cavalry discussion, im not sure i could picture skaven riding mutant beasties as "Aflo" has already stated it doesnt make too much sense fluff wise.

But I would like to see some more big mutant beasties crawling out of "hells pit", I would much rather see something like an improvement to giant rats. They've never seemed giant enough to me. So maybe something in line with cavalry sized rats that work similarly to dire wolves, fast dribbly and expendable to tie up the enemy lines for a turn or two. This would imho provide a nice little modelling option and something of a fast melee support unit for the followers of the horned rat.

Duke Georgal
29-01-2008, 11:34
What is wrong with the Skaven army?

My previous post caused a bit of anger, so let me explain.

First, the idea of an army of mutated talking rats is great. However, something got lost from concept to book.

This is how it looks like the first Skaven book was brought to life: As the game designers made each new army book they had good ideas, bad ideas, and dumb ideas. Most of the good ideas made it into their respective army books. The bad and dumb were crumpled up and tossed to the floor. Eventually, after all of the other books were completed, the floor was swept. Well... somebody went through the trash, and the Skaven book was born!

Then, the worst background story ever put to paper was written to justify the choices at hand. Reading the Skaven fluff is like reading through a cult manifesto for the defense of the existence of a flying spagheti monster. It is just 100% stupid and childish.

Seriously, do you not think several of the Skaven units are just plain dumb and totally out of character for an army of rat-men?

Other books have dumb and out of character choices too. Gyrocopters and Trebuchets come to mind, but the Skaven book is based around them.

An army of rats should fight like an army of rats. They should have special rules and abilities to give them the character of an army of rats.

Skaven should be the fast, scary, diseased, swarmy, hand-to-hand army of Warhammer Fantasy.

Strength should come in numbers. Skaven could cause fear if they outnumber an enemy, but be subject to fear if they don't. That is very rat-like. Plus one leadership for rank bonus is good, but the best character should only have LD5. That way the rats would have to work to be as good as an elf. Rat units with LD as high as a chaos dwarf lord? Give me a break. That whole notion is retarded.

Make skaven move 6. Give them 2 attacks each. Lower it to one attack, at player's choice, in exchange for poison if you want.

If you want guns and magic, play Empire.

I really hope the Skaven get the new identity such a great concept deserves.

-Florida Kevin

eldereth
29-01-2008, 13:14
I don't think you thought that through mate. Fear causing when outnumbering and subject to fear when outnumbered must be one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. Basically, every close combat (except draws) will result in a fleeing unit, a fleeing unit that won't rally in the skaven case. Why not make both players just role a d6 at the beginning of the game and the one with the highest outcome wins?

You also say skaven should both outnumber AND be fantastic fighters. How are you going to balance that versus armies who are also great fighters, but who are few in number? Either you lower the skaven numbers (which would totally go against the raving mad rat horde idea ) or lower their combat prowess (kind of like clanrats). You can still give them 2 attacks, you can even call them plague monks.

I think something got lost between the concept of a rat culture that is always scheming and backstabbing for personal gain, and will run away at the slightest sign of trouble and YOUR concept of mutated rats who are fast, scary and diseased.

On a completely unrelated note, I think it would be cool to be able to put the master moulder on a ridden monster of sorts.

I also think we need something hitty to actually kill something in combat (I think it's ridiculous to charge a unit, have it kill 4 rats versus 0 casualties, and run), but I think that fixing the rat ogres would go a long way towards fixing that problem (and maybe make stormvermin str 4).

I also wouldn't mind an extra rare choice, like a doomwheel or something.

I liked the idea of making the giant rats act like fast cav too. Maybe make them M7. We really need something that pursues 3d6", as knights have the tendency to charge, flee and charge again without taking any (CC) casualties.

ZeroTwentythree
29-01-2008, 14:16
I also think we need something hitty to actually kill something in combat (I think it's ridiculous to charge a unit, have it kill 4 rats versus 0 casualties, and run), but I think that fixing the rat ogres would go a long way towards fixing that problem (and maybe make stormvermin str 4).



I think there has been a slow creeping upward of a) killing ability and b) durability (T and armour) of many troops and an increase in their availablity. As a result, even when the skaven outmaneuver their opponents and manage to flank them, their enemies now get more attacks and are more frequently able to cause enough casualties to counteract the skaven flank advantage, while your average WS3 & S3 skaven don't do much in return. Even if they don't win, skaven can easilly get bogged down in a combat where they are losing numbers, and that's rarely good for the rats.

Additionally, it's getting harder to outmaneuver opponents. Dwarves and chaos are both good examples. Dwarves can field close to the same number of units, and sit back and even out the odds with missile fire. Additionally, the anvil, miners, rangers, etc. all allow units of significant strength to outflank enemies in a way the skaven can only be jealous of. Chaos, which used to be a small army of hardcore elite troops, has ultra-cheap units of hounds and cheap marauder cav & chariots -- I can usually expect to be outdeployed by a chaos army and a tough time outmanuvering them.


I like the idea of skaven as a horde -- but to make that their sole focus, as some people have been suggesting, will require a lot of work in that department. Eldereth's suggestion above of giving them some chance in combat is one step...



I liked the idea of making the giant rats act like fast cav too. Maybe make them M7.

...that could be another.






I also wouldn't mind an extra rare choice, like a doomwheel or something.



I'd prefer the "or something" :D but yeah, right now the only rare choice I use is my rat-giant, which isn't even part of the main army list. :/

Jack of Blades
29-01-2008, 14:37
What about one poisoned attack instead of 2 attacks/1 poisoned attack?
Honestly, they'd have to be strength 2 if you want them to have 2 attacks. Then give them poisoned attacks at a cost/model, and I'm fine with it. I'd actually like that. Since few if any basic infantry have S2 and 2A with poisoned attacks, it'd be pretty unique. Then again it's also overpowered...

Btw, there's a very fine line of balance with Horde armies. Make them slightly underpar with other armies, and they'll dominate. Make other armies a lot better than them (but not that much), and their numbers won't matter. Besides, it varies from army to army and so on... bah, I'm going to go into game and balance mechanics if I continue.

I'm starting to feel the pull of the squeeky hordes though, I think I have a little skaven in me. But VC will be my primary army.

FurryMiguell
29-01-2008, 15:19
I like the idea of a direwolf sized rat that can flank and tie up enemy units, but wouldnt that kinda take the slaves and nightrunners roles?

And yeah, what about some really "giant" rats. Like a bigger rat ogre, a rat giant, or something:p

Skaven with big sticks! Monsterkiller teams! A buch of clanrats ramming a troll with a pointy pole;)

Cheers:D

Jack of Blades
29-01-2008, 15:43
I like the idea of a direwolf sized rat that can flank and tie up enemy units, but wouldnt that kinda take the slaves and nightrunners roles?

And yeah, what about some really "giant" rats. Like a bigger rat ogre, a rat giant, or something:p

Skaven with big sticks! Monsterkiller teams! A buch of clanrats ramming a troll with a pointy pole;)

Cheers:D

Slaves still have their roles. Night runners also still have their roles (and I think they should die if a benevolent seagull farts at them, but they should have good offense).

Indeed, I love that too... a rat giant would be awesome. Rare Unit, you can customize it with all sorts of Moulder mutations etc. ZeroTwentyThree, please write more Breps! :D

Well you could have a new unit of ''Eshin Specialists'', would be an upgrade for gutter/night runners. I don't know how, but make them good against things with T5 and over. Very good, But not overpowered (so you can't take a unit of 10 for like 120 points and kill anything from Bloodthirsters to Tyrants to Vampires for example).

ZeroTwentythree
29-01-2008, 15:46
I like the idea of a direwolf sized rat that can flank and tie up enemy units,


Wolf-rats were in 3rd edition, but was removed in 4th ed. Skaven also had access to large monsters until 6th ed.




but wouldnt that kinda take the slaves and nightrunners roles?


Not really.

Slaves are too slow, cumbersome and are in large units.

Night runners are skirmishers and don't negate ranks.

FurryMiguell
29-01-2008, 16:18
yeah, many of the really fun things has disapeared through the years. hopefully, the doomwheel and other awesome stuff will return.

Another mad idea: Warlock Engineer mounted on a mecanical rat? Warpstone-powered?
Takes the whole "Empire Engineer on macanical steed" to a new level, doesnt it?

Mad thoughts from the madest of Greyseers, FurryMiguell

Cheers:D

Wolfmother
29-01-2008, 17:11
clanrats are overpointed!

compare them to goblins there 2 points mare what do they get?

and goblins can have fanatics netters ect!

Jack of Blades
29-01-2008, 17:19
Oh the noes, let's make them identical to clanrats. And while we're at it, why do minotaurs have better WS than bulls? why can't Dark Riders have lances? etc.

... Sit down and think before posting please...

FurryMiguell
29-01-2008, 17:37
clanrats get their +1 ld for every rank!

Wolflord Havoc
29-01-2008, 18:10
Okay - I have had a 'brief' read through this thread and would like to add my own 2 chunks of warpstone worth.

I started warhammer last year (having played 40K since RT days) and decided to go for a skaven army for no reason other than I had always gone for the good guys or chaos when playing 40K and never really had a horde army.

So 3 battalion box sets and various blister packs etc later and about 20 or so games with my Skaven as well as half again as many games with New Orks and Old and new High Elves. I am absolutely loving it.

As to a new army book - this is what I think

Skaven don't do cavalry - its their foible so to speak - it is a gap in the armies strength that a Skaven player has to plan for and deploy things like Rat swarms and Ratling guns to cover against. I am against including any cavalry or equivilent in a future Army Book.

Clan Rats - these do everything that you would expect of your basic Skaven. I have no issue with them.

Storm Vermin - Again pretty much spot on.

RAT SWARM - I think a modest point rise and give them poison attacks as standard

Giant Rats - make these skirmishers?

Gutter runners - okay as is

Night runners - again pretty much okay

Ratling Guns - I have to confess these things are deadly - too deadly but bloody funny to use - I think they should continue to work in the way that they have but the player must say how many dice they are rolling up front - no more rolling one dice and then decided to roll another etc. Also the number of shots should be reduced by the normal 'minus' to hit value that the target presents - so a skirmishing unit being targeted reduce's the number of attacks by 1 and unit in a hard building by 3 (?) etc etc Perhapos even go as far as reducing this off each dice?. Any doubles rolled should refer to the current chart.

Warp Fire throwers - these should be move and fire - they are more expensive than Ratling guns and IMO not as useful!! Admittidly I have not as a result taken them very often.

Rat Ogres - Were do I start - these thing are supposed to be Warp spawned monstrosities - Not convinced - perhaps a T increase? or a warp induced ward save? Both ideas I feel would be too much - but currently I feel that these things are a liability and a points sink. Perhaps if they moved as light cav.....same speed? But then this goes against what I said about cavalry (i.e. Skaven shouldn't have any!) at the beginning of this post.

As for the rest.......the current book is pretty much spot on.

A few items of magic wargear should be changed - the book that turns the Plague preist into a level 1 wizard needs looking at - (the spell he gets is 9+ to cast and he can only ever use 2 dice) for example.

Termik
29-01-2008, 18:49
This exchange of points of view is becoming fascinating as more posts are released.
So after reading until the moment 5 pages, I need to say my two cents about my lovely furry Skaven.

As seen right now, the Special Rules are generally accepted as fluffy, they do work well and give the army its special taste.

The problem with Skaven arise whit all this changes in rules mechanics and with the crazyness of some designers (some Italian feloow who I prefer not to name).
But even from his job a few things can be saved. Specially the Mainstay Rule. I love this rule, and even believe that it should be added to all army list out there.
Clanrats are the backbone, escorted by some other units that are not very appelaing right now.
As said before SV are just overpriced. They need to get a real feeling of eliteness. Maybe increase the strenght to 4, letting them to choose weaponry (Halberds! for the Horned Rat's sake, not even the Empire use them!!!!), or drop them in points. They aren't able to wound anything.... as much of all the CC skaven units.

Giant Rats...er well... they move just one inch more... no armour...30 points per pack.... they need to be expendable again! Plus minor tweaks/upgrades from Moulder (Give them options to be in fact truly mutated: Scaly Skin, Razors, Long Legs... oh come on, this can really makes the army quite funny and different each time, plus more modelling options). And the same could be Apply to Rat Ogres.

Night Runners: 10 ratmen per unit as minimun size.

PWG: Need to be change by a lot. Maybe recovering them as upgrades to units instead of fielding them in units. Maybe each hit could be changed for a 1d3 hits. Right now they are of little use.

Slaves: 2 points for something that do not carry anything on it sound fair. And if they are far away from the General's LD they tend to run home faster than anything in the game. A Packmaster will be a nice addition too (as have been mentioned before), in fact it will be a beautiful sight with his whip yelling orders from the rear of the unit.

Rat Swarms: Suck. For 50 points per base they are not worthy. They have stayed at home in a shelter since the introduction of 7th ED. Not even with a price reduction I will reintroduce them.

Weapon Teams: With 7th ED. their power has been toned down. For the RG I will agree with the Roll to Hit suggestion, but then the weapon should drop by half or more of its present cost.
The WFT is trash right now. The Miscast table is really really nasty, there isn't the slightlest chance of survival in there, not to say that they are now pick up by anything that can fire a bow.... It's not a surprise that nobody use them. They need a new set of rules so they are worth playing with them again.


The Specials, Rare and Characters problems will have to wait for later.

ZeroTwentythree
29-01-2008, 19:20
The WFT is trash right now. The Miscast table is really really nasty, there isn't the slightlest chance of survival in there, not to say that they are now pick up by anything that can fire a bow.... It's not a surprise that nobody use them. They need a new set of rules so they are worth playing with them again.



Embarrassingly enough, I stuck with using one until about a month ago -- even though I knew they sucked.

But it wasn't just that they sucked at killing the enemy. They were causing more casualties to my own army than to the enemy. It was starting to look like no one would shoot them because of their potential to backfire on me was too valuable to my opponents. :eek:

Wolfmother
29-01-2008, 19:57
PWG: Need to be change by a lot. Maybe recovering them as upgrades to units instead of fielding them in units. Maybe each hit could be changed for a 1d3 hits. Right now they are of little use.


what i <3 pwg's they are awsome at taking out any heavy armoured troops taking table quarters and there ten points each a twenty point core choice!

FurryMiguell
29-01-2008, 21:22
The madness never ends! What about a Warlook Engineer lord model in a warpstone powersuit thingy! some kind of 'terminator' armour! Only it looks curedly crafted and swarms with tiny rats! and it has a ratling gun on its arm, and has to roll a artillery dice for moving! that would be so much fun! (damn, i have far to many conversions to make! I got ratriders, 'rat giant', warlock on warpstonepowered mount, and the powersuit:D)

Cheers:D

Jack of Blades
29-01-2008, 21:37
Haha, you're suggesting some kinda of custom-outfit crazy huge and mutated Warlock-Cyborg on mental and physical drugs and steroids with a bit of cheese in front of his nose to keep him running forwards (Clan Skryre), two drills with spikes on them for arms, and he has two more arms with a big sledgehammer and a halberd on them (operated in by Clan Moulder) as well as a Warpfire Thrower & Ratling Gun (you can get a max of 2 of both, 1 per arm, increasing price per purchase), a rat-wheel to give you M10 for one turn by turbo boosting, a big, strange metal hat that can scan the surroundings for magic items as well as the bound spell ''Ratfury'' which is similar to Bear's Anger. Let's not forget the rat-ta-ta-ta, a machine gun that fires diseased, warpstone-infused rats on something (Clan Pestilens) as well as being able to coat his weapons in poison and have an unlimited amount of ''Explosive Hand Grenades''. :D

Is that what you truly want, Furry?

Ward.
30-01-2008, 02:23
Round two of the skaven changes for me:

Once again I think that by the time skaven are redone the rattling gun's auto hit will have been nerfed by other armies special abilities.

I think a large moulder beast, based off of forge worlds greater spawn or spined beast would be good, with a chart of available upgrades like the ones used for rat ogre pit fighting as a rare choice. Also we need another middle ground weapon team, like something that fire's a single high strength solid slug.

FurryMiguell
30-01-2008, 07:25
*cough*. Well Jack, I was really aiming for a single miniature capable of destroying a 4k pts army alone, with ease, cause that would just be stupid. i was thinking more like a pile of iron smacked together, a few clanrats pushing it around and, wow! wait! a ratling tank!!! a smal chunck of iron plates, with a warpfirethrower at its front and some clanrats moving it around at back. And it has to move by the srtillery dice, but the result will be halved(eccept for the missfire, where it blows up anyway), and a missfire chart and stuff! sort of a Skaven steam-tank! only way cooler, and not so powerful, but still fun!

Just another crazy idea:p. might be cool, but im not trying to make up some ultimate skaven killing machine, if thats what you think! only stuff that would look cool on the battlefield:)

Cheers:D

Skitter-Squeek
30-01-2008, 08:18
What is wrong with the Skaven army?

My previous post caused a bit of anger, so let me explain.

First, the idea of an army of mutated talking rats is great. However, something got lost from concept to book.

This is how it looks like the first Skaven book was brought to life: As the game designers made each new army book they had good ideas, bad ideas, and dumb ideas. Most of the good ideas made it into their respective army books. The bad and dumb were crumpled up and tossed to the floor. Eventually, after all of the other books were completed, the floor was swept. Well... somebody went through the trash, and the Skaven book was born!

Then, the worst background story ever put to paper was written to justify the choices at hand. Reading the Skaven fluff is like reading through a cult manifesto for the defense of the existence of a flying spagheti monster. It is just 100% stupid and childish.

Seriously, do you not think several of the Skaven units are just plain dumb and totally out of character for an army of rat-men?

Other books have dumb and out of character choices too. Gyrocopters and Trebuchets come to mind, but the Skaven book is based around them.

An army of rats should fight like an army of rats. They should have special rules and abilities to give them the character of an army of rats.

Skaven should be the fast, scary, diseased, swarmy, hand-to-hand army of Warhammer Fantasy.

Strength should come in numbers. Skaven could cause fear if they outnumber an enemy, but be subject to fear if they don't. That is very rat-like. Plus one leadership for rank bonus is good, but the best character should only have LD5. That way the rats would have to work to be as good as an elf. Rat units with LD as high as a chaos dwarf lord? Give me a break. That whole notion is retarded.

Make skaven move 6. Give them 2 attacks each. Lower it to one attack, at player's choice, in exchange for poison if you want.

If you want guns and magic, play Empire.

I really hope the Skaven get the new identity such a great concept deserves.

-Florida Kevin


I personally think there fluff is 100% badass and the units are great. Not to mention this is a fantasy game you wanna complain about unrealistic units stop playing warhammer and go play flames of war.


Now that I have some time to Write I will adress my thoughts and what I think the future holds for the Rats.


Warlock Engineers- These Little buggers are the pain in everyones behinds no Doubt. And with some talking to key people and the rumours circulating there change will come in the form of strength 4 but work the same as they have been.

Ratling Guns- I think they are fine the way they are but due to a lot of peoples whining they are brought to the forfront of the skaven "needs to be changed list" From who I have talked to they will not change but then ALessio himself has said they need to. So I am sitting tight on that hoping there will be no change, if it does I don't see a roll to hit I see getting an artillery dice worth of shots or anouncing the amount of dice rolled.

MAgic- NEw spells are garunteed Can't wait.

Stormvermin- From My Sources THey will get a boost (be it point reduction or beefier combat ability) and there 0-1 restrictions are going to be lifted. Plus Plastics although that is not totally confirmed.

CLanrats- Perfect why change them as long as we keep our mainstry rule.

Mainstay Rule- I do not see changing has been a Skaven rule since they have came out and will not go away.

Strength in Numbers- You don't like too bad not changing been there since the begining as well.

Main Focus of the Book: MOULDER MOULDER MOULDER. Thats right 100% no doubt that moulder will be the forfront of this new skaven book. Rat Ogres will finally be worth a damn not to mention have skyre weaponry on them. And you all can recall that tunneling beast Alessio wanted in the last book. Theres a glimmer of hope it sees light this next book. And if you call BS on the Skyre weaponry for the rat Ogres You will notice the Warpfire thrower on the rat ogre sprue attached to the rat ogres arm.

Jezzails- As much as I am against taking 40 of these buggers I think a 0-1 restriction on them max unit size 10 or 0-2 max units should be installed for them. Cause I beleive these guys to be the best And deadliest shooting unit in the game. I do not beleive they should be changed anywhere else on stats or strength etc. but just limit there numbers.

Thats pretty much all I have info on or thoughts about now, but just hope that they do not downgrade them so much as they become the next orc codex =(.


Skitter Squeek

i am chaos
30-01-2008, 09:38
i would like to say some really heavy armoured rats that do have ld 7 wich would be fun to rip apart and some gray seers would come out and atemt to kill thinings befor they come out to play as a really powerful magic user (for skaven) :)

Arbas
30-01-2008, 09:53
Hi - long time player of the original Skaven just trying a return to gaming and the main disappointments in the new army book was the lack of ranked casters it seems that you either take a level 4 or nothing (agreed the engineers are effectively a level 1 caster but with no spells .... ) and where is my beloved Doomwheel AUGHHHHH <ahem> maybe more feedback once I actually play a game but since I'm using my wife as an opponent and I only have Skaven in WHFB it'll be a rat on rat encounter so it may not be the best at bringing out problems in the list :)

What I would like to see in the list (to bring it into line with the fluff) are crossbows - quite heavily used in some of the early fiction and quite fitting to a tunnel based race. Please no cavalry. Oh and maybe some way of taking magical banners in a unit without it having to be as the battle standard bearer. And no cavalry.

Lexy
30-01-2008, 11:25
Stormvermin and plague monks both can have magical banners.
That's the same as for most armies: the real core troops don't get such a banner.

FurryMiguell
30-01-2008, 11:54
mmmh, Skaven Crossbow, uh, rats:p. That would be awesome! Im gona convert a few, just to see what it would look like. I already did a few skaven with bows, but im not so sure about them:p

Cheers:D

Arbas
30-01-2008, 13:47
You don't to convert any - they come in the Mordheim set :) well at least one does .....


Didn't realise that most core troops couldn't take magic banners - is that something that changed relatively recently? (I did my playing back in 4th edition days) All my opponents seemed to have them in almost all their units ... that would be Empire, Undead, High Elf in most games ...

FurryMiguell
30-01-2008, 13:50
Oh, well, more fun converting them:)

Cheers:D

Moepho
30-01-2008, 16:06
1) Weapons teams have already been nerfed to the point of worthless points sink by the new core rules. The only time they are worth it is if your opponent has no ranged attacks....and if they do...and have a hill...forget about ever get a shot off.

2) The only way people are going to move away from the much whined about SAD armies is if the list somehow gets a way to deal out high strength melee attacks. As it stands now Skaven shooting and magic is the only way to dish out high strength attacks in decent quantities. How else are Skaven supposed to deal with stuff like the new HE Star Dragon spam?

3) Clan Moulder needs to filled out. A giant rat, better rat ogres, mutated clan rats or even rat cavalry (I don't know why people object to rats riding rats...GW has already made a Skaven doing this!!!)...something that would lure people from the more attractive (and higher strength)shooting and magic.

4) There needs to be a plastic slaves kit. Converting so many on your own really womps...and most people don't bother...so it then looks like a sea of clanrats with some who don't have shields....

5) Bring back the Doomwheel and Verminlord...they were really cool and just needed to be adjusted not deleted....

FurryMiguell
30-01-2008, 16:26
Converting slaves are great fun! And very easy! My tricks are to make nice gaping fleshwounds with my modeling knife(just cut some fur away, and apply greenstuff on the edges), and I equip all of them with a, uh, shapened stick, or a club or bush... Anything that might be used to hurt other things! ( an empire shoe is my favouritte:p). After those minor adjustments, your slaves will look much more like slaves than ever! (and the clanrats will look like bold heroes compared to them, which says a lot...)

Cheers:D

Fellblade
30-01-2008, 19:15
0-1 and 0-2 style limits are gone in all the newer books. Those units are either getting bumped up to special/rare or its just being dropped. I would expect to see Stormvermen become specials, but up to one can be bought as core if your general is a warlord or some certain character (queek?).

The biggest problem with jezzails is there really isn't a unit to compete with them for special slots. They need to be how they are as they're skaven's only means of dealing with armored threats like knights, steamtanks, large monsters, and so on. The problem is people don't like seeing those units get vaporized.

Skaven fight poorly. Unless they can thin the enemy down to minimal ranks before combat beings there's a good chance they'll lose. I wouldn't suggest normal skaven get any better at fighting, but adding some more 'elite' units (or making SV better) would help this.

Another idea that I was pondering was adjusting the Strength in Numbers rule. In addition to the LD bonus on ranks, maybe for non-expendable units a CR bonus on ranks vs width as well. Count your width -2 = max rank bonus, and ranks must be full (not just 5 models) to claim it. 5 wide, CR+3 max, 8 wide CR+6 max. Of course, once you get to 8 wide you're at 32 models for just a +3, 40 models +4, 48 +5, 56 for the max +6. Then it would truly be strength in numbers... but very point intesive.

W0lf
30-01-2008, 19:26
Theres nothing broken about Jezzails.

Force a panic check (which isnt hard) and watch them fail and flee off the board. Plus they hit on like 5+ so they are hardly that amazing.

I dont even play skaven and i feel jezzails are of no concern.

theunwantedbeing
30-01-2008, 19:35
All who feel that W0lf shouldn't try to argue a point anymore raise your hand.
*raises hand*
(yes this again)

I shall elaborate.

I dont even play skaven and i feel jezzails are of no concern
So you have no experience against them but you feel they are fine as they are, despite no experience against them.....

Your previous points are valid of course.
Making them panic isnt too difficult, and 5 of them are 100pts, which is rather a lot per model.
I like the whole *raise your hand if you agree that W0lf did something wrong* thing, with a bit of luck it'll catch and it can be our little in joke ^_^(there's no malice meant with my comments)

FurryMiguell
30-01-2008, 20:07
YES! Why dont we do that at world congress! "everyone that think that 'named president/dictator in a chosen land' has done something wrong, and that he should stop doing that!" I guess that only works out in class back at school:p. If he wants to post, hes free to do so, but maybe sh should think about what he said earlier before he post it. And not go around talking about things he know nothing about...

Cheers:D

monstallion
30-01-2008, 20:27
Long time Skaven player and the changes I would like to see are

1) Stormvermin go to Str 4 and lose the 0-1 keep everything else the same, I use mine now to good effect but they do struggle against tough opponents and at the moment are not really worth taking.

2) Make Rat Ogres better. What I think they need is the option for a champion to be added with the beastmaster rules and leadership 6. Less likely to run and therefore be useful, the stats the Rat Ogres have are decent enough and if they can flank then they will be good.

An alternative would be to count Rat Ogres as always have taken Skaven brew, roll on the table to see what you get!!:eek:

3) Provide more heroes / lords. Skaven background for the clans is excellent and the characters in the back of the book need to be included, this should not be a lot of work as lustria and storm of chaos have already done half of them:D You could then have the mainstay units based on who your lord is.

4) Make ratling guns roll to hit, thats all, keep it similar to ogres so they roll with no modifiers.

5) Some more mechanical madness!! The races for me in the old world that do the techno stuff are Dwarves, Empire & Skaven. Dwarves hard but reliable, Empire take a few more risks to hit a bit harder while Skaven will take massive risks for potentially massive gains. All of our misfire charts should be as harsh as the WFT (my favourite weapon team!) but conversly we should cause more damage. Doomwheel would be fun but would like to see other crazyness as well, a massive ratling lightning cannon (multi shot warp lightning cannon), a giant plage censor for plague monk units to push (chariot hits similar to screaming bell then T tests all round).


The main thing is to keep Skaven fun and in the background that we have already, also I do aim to kill more of my army than my opponent!

Kev

FurryMiguell
30-01-2008, 20:55
YES! You are my man! The best thing about a skaven army is not its ability to kill other armies, but its fantascic ability to slaughter loads of its own, with their huge, crazy machines, aswell as their opponents! Its great fun:p. Though, I think we skaven players are a special breed:)

Cheers:D

Wolfmother
30-01-2008, 21:13
All who feel that W0lf shouldn't try to argue a point anymore raise your hand.
*raises hand*
(yes this again)



my hands on the floor i completely argree with w0lf as i happen to know that he actually knows what hes talking about

i use jezzails and in no games have they won me the game or have turned the tides in my favor!

he happens to have a lot of experience against them as he plays my skaven almost every week!

FurryMiguell
30-01-2008, 21:51
uh, do you have engouh jezzails? and what armies you play mostly? this might be the reasons why they wont affect your game a lot. as all other troops, they have their strenghts and weaknesses:p

Cheers:D

fubukii
31-01-2008, 03:51
idk jezzails really are only good vs knights, chariots, Large stuff (stanks dragons etc) and thats about it. They have a rather poor accurancy a unit of 8 will only kill like 2 empire knights a turn on average. Yes jezzails are great vs tough targets but they are really expensive. (ps i have 30 jezzail models in my 7k skaven army so im pretty experienced with them :))

FurryMiguell
31-01-2008, 07:09
7k skaven!? how the hellpit did you manage to paint a skaven army that huge!? Geez, your some kind of, greyseer!

Cheers:D

Fellblade
31-01-2008, 08:09
All who feel that W0lf shouldn't try to argue a point anymore raise your hand.
So you have no experience against them but you feel they are fine as they are, despite no experience against them...

Maybe you shouldn't try to counter-argue points anymore? He said he doesn't play skaven. To me that means he doesn't own/use a skaven army. I don't believe he said he doesn't ever play against them nor has ever seen them in action or anything else of the sort. Of course, maybe I'm totally wrong in which case I apologize in advance.


Hell, I don't think I've ever played against jezzails. I've only played against skaven a couple times and, like me, they realize there isn't much in the skaven army that jezzails are worth shooting at. On the other hand, I've played hundreds of games with my skaven and used jezzails in most of them. The only person I know who complains about jezzails is one who usually brings small elite armies that are quite vulnerable to them.

eldereth
31-01-2008, 13:57
Don't think jezzails are that great either. When they shoot, they only cause a few wounds, and only if you take 8+ of them. But then again, at 160+ points and their low model count and Ld, added to them being t3 4+ AS troops (against shooting), your opponent will realise that his shots/magic will be better directed against jezzails.

What's even worse, I never seem to find any space in my lines to put them so they have LoS. Either I give them LoS and my battle line is a chaotic mess, or they get to stand behind my lines and not see anything.

So jezzails are only any good if you have the points, the room in your deployment zone and enough other units that require shooting to get rid of them to take em. So unless you take a skaven army that's few in numbers, but with ratling guns, rat ogres and PCB's, there might be a chance they won't get shot.

I agree we need something that can take high T/AS things in CC so we're not forced to take jezzails/WLC's/PWG's (who all need to be taken in number to have any chance of them doing something). But this will be hard because most monsters are also extremely mobile and hence won't get into CC.

ZeroTwentythree
31-01-2008, 14:06
What's even worse, I never seem to find any space in my lines to put them so they have LoS. Either I give them LoS and my battle line is a chaotic mess, or they get to stand behind my lines and not see anything.

I've run into this quite a bit too. Unless there's a nice hill in the deployment zone, a horde army is going to block LOS for more-or-shoot shooters.

However, getting stuck behind the lines can -- at times -- work out, and the jezzails will discourage fast cav from coming around the flanks or flyers from landing behind my lines. (On the other hand, the jezzails are often easy to chase off the board by those same troops.)

They're not bad for certain uses (as pointed out by others, above), but hardly the game-ruining terror some people make them out to be.

Dwarf Runelord 45
31-01-2008, 20:49
1. change stormvermin price cost and give them atomatic shields im clanrats get them why can't they use them.

2. Change rat ogres to make them stronger or at least tuffer

3. Bring back the doomwheel and make a giant rat (as in a giant but half rat)

Unwise
01-02-2008, 00:50
I have never understood why anyone would complain about the ratling gun not needing to roll to hit.

Knights have uber shooting protection, which they pay a premium for, yet it is cancelled out regularly by 'no save' warmachines. Why is it ok to have a machine that ignores that type of protection, yet it is not ok to ignore the fact that someone is standing in a wood?

The vast majority of warmachines already don't give a toss if you are in the woods or not. Flame Cannons, Cannons, Stonethrowers etc. They all ignore your -to hit bonuses.

I think it is appropriate to have different warmachines being better at killing different things, and having variable abilities.

----------

Back to the topic at hand though:

- IMHO Clanrats and Plague monks are good enough as they are

- It's a small stretch fluffwise to give Stormvermin s4, but I can't really see much else that you could do to give them a clear role in the game. At least if they had that and halberds, they would be a the anti-cav infantry unit. After all, some elite humans, dwarves and even elves have s4.

- Master Moulders need to have a much larger impact with their special rule. Suggestions include:
- They let giant rats act as fast cav
- They let Rat Ogres use the 'strength in numbers' ranks of a nearby unit
- They can frenzy any moulder unit that they join, by causing it damage
- Can be upgraded to level 1 mages. This allows a moulder army to have a scroll caddy without relying on outsiders.
- When u buy one, you can upgrade a moulder unit to be mutants, pay X amount to upgrade the unit (variable effects) and the Master Moulder may now never leave that unit (he has to keep them under control and they are his pets)
- A giant rat to ride, so I can use my Nurglich model

- Plague Priests are good as they are, but I would like to see them be able to be level 1 mages, giving variety and ending the reliance on clan skyre for scroll caddies.

- Warlocks that can give re-rolls to warmchines nearby to them. They trick is, they cannot be used to get rid of a misfire. So the reroll would just be used to increase damage (thus giving the machine a second chance to misfire). Make them more a true engineer.
- Give them the ability to take some really wicked weapons, like a personal rattling-gun/warpfire/zap gun etc. Make it a real option to not upgrade them to cast magic, but instead give them a destructive gun. (Eg. They can either take warpblade OR another blasty gun). Thus they remain worthwhile in low magic games; you could take one as a scroll caddy with a grendade launcher.

- Rat Ogres certainly need something, but I think they should just drop down in points and rely on a buffed up Master Moulder (see above) to make them really good. They should be a unit that really makes you want to add a Master Moulder.

- Assassins that can actually assassinate, oh shock oh horror.

- The mutation rule mentioned above, would mean we did not need seperate entries for mutated ratogres, rats etc. If u wanted centaur rats, you just buy them the ability to be fast cav.

- I like the idea of the rat-giant, but I think the current DoW giant rules pretty much cover that anyway. I can't think of too much else worth changing in that regard.

- GW got rid of the Doomwheel because it was silly, but how do you really think skaven power their machines? It is basic waterwheel tech with slave labour, it actually makes sense. Now that they have mechanical horses, pigeon bombs and dwarves shield surfing, I think we can safely say that silliness is not an issue anymore.

Cheers all.

Fellblade
01-02-2008, 02:22
Stormvermen used to be str4 plus their halberd, so its no stretch at all.

The doomwheel wasn't slave labor any more than a chairot is, it was a giant hamster wheel.

I like a lot of those ideas, especially being able to upgrade the existing heroes to wizard-types. Not for scroll caddies, but just to add some variation to the magic phase.

ZeroTwentythree
01-02-2008, 13:22
I have never understood why anyone would complain about the ratling gun not needing to roll to hit.

Knights have uber shooting protection, which they pay a premium for, yet it is cancelled out regularly by 'no save' warmachines. Why is it ok to have a machine that ignores that type of protection, yet it is not ok to ignore the fact that someone is standing in a wood?

The vast majority of warmachines already don't give a toss if you are in the woods or not. Flame Cannons, Cannons, Stonethrowers etc. They all ignore your -to hit bonuses.

I think it is appropriate to have different warmachines being better at killing different things, and having variable abilities.


Because most of them still have some sort of luck roll involved, whether this is a roll "to hit" like with bolt throwers, or a guess range + scatter like stone throwers, or a guess range + distance like cannons.

IIRC the only other one that is like the ratling is the organ gun.





- Plague Priests are good as they are, but I would like to see them be able to be level 1 mages, giving variety and ending the reliance on clan skyre for scroll caddies.


I'm not sure I agree that some foaming at the mouth diseased loony (with frenzy) is going to stop and cast a spell. My own preference is to leave him as a combat guy.






- I like the idea of the rat-giant, but I think the current DoW giant rules pretty much cover that anyway. I can't think of too much else worth changing in that regard.



Except that there's a certain population that likes to whine about anyone using DoW units, and they are, in-fact not allowed by some stores, gaming groups and tournaments.

I'd rather see a specifically skaven beastie as part of the core list. I don't think it has to be a "giant" per se, but just some sort of really large monster.

Besides, you could make the DoW reasoning with alot of armies: Why does Army X need Unit Z, they can get it from DoW? But that's not really an excuse for leaving crossbowmen out of the Empire list or whatever...

forgottenlor
01-02-2008, 15:22
Unwise, I certainly agree with you that the assassin should be able to assassinate. It would be cool if he could (like some magic items) choose 1 opponent character model at the beginning of the game and have some bonuses against him (such as multiple wounds or death blow)

FatOlaf
01-02-2008, 17:52
Ratling guns are obviously going to have to roll to hit with each of their shots.


Why? They have been nerfed enough as it is...



Because they don't work like machine guns, they work like magic missiles? It's acceptable for magic, but why should a ratling gun be able to pick out 5 wayawatchers/ chameleon skinks skirmishing at long range in a building with perfect accuracy when other shooters can't? Why should it be able to shoot round corners and kill a whole unit even though it can only see one trooper?

Is that last point relevant to ratlings alone, any unit can do this, it's a big fault in WFB (amongst others), a unit of ten gunners can see one skirmisher peeking out of a wood, or one trooper just out of cover of a wall, and then shoot the lot of them..nonsense IMO..




frankly, the best way (in my opinion) to fix the ratling gun, is to have the skaven player declare how many dice he is rolling before any dice are thrown.

I agree.. And something I have been doing anyway


Or make it roll to hit...

No, not till the Organ gun has to..



I think jezzails are fine. They are very good at punching through armor or monsters, they're a bit pricey when fielding bigger units and compete for limited special slots, and they're fairly easy to scare off. Since skaven really don't have any other way of dealing with heavy armor or tough targets you can't really gimp them down, but due to how powerful they can be you can't really buff them up much more. About all they need is some rule clarification as to how to handle them. Right now it says to treat them as calvary which means they can't enter buildings.


Which is ridiculous..



But the Clan Moulder is a constant source of disappointment: so these fabled "mutation masters", the wealthiest clan, only have to offer to a general what? Lousy rat ogres and what seems to be poodles with bad haircuts? Where are those "terrible monsters", those "hideous abominations" they constantly talk about in the fluff? Pft!

Agree 100%.... Where are these hideous experiments that other clans pay millions for? Rat Ogres are a joke!




Other books have dumb and out of character choices too. Gyrocopters and Trebuchets come to mind, but the Skaven book is based around them.


:wtf: Trebuchets, dumb? Out of character? What are you talking about?




RAT SWARM - I think a modest point rise and give them poison attacks as standard


A point's rise? Are you joking?


Theres nothing broken about Jezzails.
Force a panic check (which isnt hard) and watch them fail and flee off the board. Plus they hit on like 5+ so they are hardly that amazing.


I agree again.. They can wipe out units of Heavy Cav like they are not there but look at them in the wrong way and they run for the hills...



I have been playing Skaven since 3rd Ed and feel that the current list with 7th Ed nerfs is one of the weakest we have had..
I am repeating many things said already but here's my 50c's worth.

1) Rat Ogres - make em 60-65 points, give em T5 and S6 - 4+ AS with all that junk attatched to them. Unit champion can have weapon attached to hand, mini ratling/warpfire thrower... Get rid of handler..

2) Swarms - Drop points massively, add poison or just get rid..

3) SV - lose the 0-1

4) Assassins - make them seriously scary, arm them with Jezzails, can aim for characters, maybe a sniper class and a CC class, are they not meant to be the best in the world???

5) If ratlings have to roll to hit, let them go in units..

6) Jezzails are not cavalry, I repeat they are not horses, hence they can get inside a building...

7) WLC is crap, get rid, bring in 2-3 mad war machines cobbled together by the engineers, comprising various machines from other races.. All stolen of course..

8) I want giant Mole rat or Doomwheel, it does not have to be any good, just fun..:evilgrin:

9) Drop the bell

10) Lvl 2 Seer's please, this will stop the warlock epidemic

11) But then again have a look at the magic lore, needs changes..

12) Warpfire Thrower needs work... dont know what but it just does :D

13) Lets have some great special characters, bring the Lustri rat riding SC in the new book.. Love that model..