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BajsArne
24-01-2008, 22:50
I have been thinking about this since the last chaos codex. Can someone explain to me why chaos is not totally superior to their loyalist brethern?

Chaos pros:

-Bolt pistol, close combat weapon and frag grenades on everyone
-Leadership 9, partially offset by their lack of "and the shall know no fear, but on the other hand the most annoying units are fearless anyway
-Marks, some of which are awesome
-Obliterators
-Terminators that can have a mix of power weaponry, and combi weapons as well
-Demon princes
-Better pyschic powers, especially the lash
-Demons
-Better basic commander

Loyalists:

-Chaplains
-Land speeders
-Whirlwinds
-Assault cannons
-Scouts
-More bling bling for heroes

This does not bother me that much because I play Tau, but I was thinking of building a marine army some time in the future. But when chaos seems so superior, it just seems less fun.

xibo
24-01-2008, 23:08
loyalists:
+ powerfull advantage traits, while disadvantages aren't really disadvantages
+ more minmaxing cheese
+ can take allies
+ rhino that doesn't count as opentopped after shooting out with scouts
+ plascannons whereever you want them
+ multimeltas whereever you want them
+ scout bikes
+ infiltrating, scout moving, jetpacked character ( in the lines of former chaos codex's demon prince of doom, just with scout movement )
+ Rites of Battle makes LD10 through the whole army anyway ( so basic marine has LD10 unlike basic CSM who only has 9 ) and the model that grants it is good enough to take even without RoB
+ ATSKNF
+ auxpexes ( at least old chaos couldn't take them )
+ razorbacks

EDIT:
+ annoying 3 (or was OMG 4?) points advisor who grants +1I, gives a wound against shooting, doesn't slow down the librarian, and when combined with furious charge renders your librarian dishing out I7 STR5 forceweapon attacks
+ wannabe techpriest enginseer with most annoying armour of doom which is better yet cheaper then terminator armour... and that guy allows to reroll a failed to hit roll OF THE UNIT HE JOINED

Super Ninja
24-01-2008, 23:15
Dont wory dude, the CSM may have all the shiny added wargear and such but the Space Marines are the Space Marines. The CSM may have pretend Ghaos Gods on their side, but the Space Marines have GW on their side.

Imperialis_Dominatus
24-01-2008, 23:19
Does anyone here (between this thread and the one about bolt pistols I'm not sure) realize the time gap in development between C: CSM and C: SM?

xibo
24-01-2008, 23:22
Dont wory dude, the CSM may have all the shiny added wargear and such but the Space Marines are the Space Marines. The CSM may have pretend Ghaos Gods on their side, but the Space Marines have GW on their side.

I felt the urgent desire to add that last sentence of you into my signature. If fixed the typo though.

BajsArne
25-01-2008, 01:25
annoying 3 (or was OMG 4?) points advisor who grants +1I, gives a wound against shooting, doesn't slow down the librarian, and when combined with furious charge renders your chaplain dishing out I7 STR5 forceweapon attacks

Who might this be?

I realise the space marine list has more cheeseability. I don't much care for that though.

Baaltharus
25-01-2008, 01:44
Well if you compare the new SM lists (ie DA and BA) and the CSM codex you can make a far more powerful army with the Chaos list if you so choose but thats probably due to Gav Thorpe being somewhat of a goon.

pookie
25-01-2008, 14:41
Who might this be?

I realise the space marine list has more cheeseability. I don't much care for that though.

he maybe thinking about a Familiar, which boosts your Librarians Iniative, quite how this affects a chaplin, which cant be armed with a FW, well, that beats me....

xibo
25-01-2008, 15:30
he maybe thinking about a Familiar, which boosts your Librarians Iniative, quite how this affects a chaplin, which cant be armed with a FW, well, that beats me....
I ment librarian, not chaplain... fixed it...

incarna
25-01-2008, 16:40
I tend to think of only one thing when it comes to the difference between chaos and loyalist marines;

Chaos is WAY more fun to paint and model… at least for me.

jfrazell
25-01-2008, 17:04
I have been thinking about this since the last chaos codex. Can someone explain to me why chaos is not totally superior to their loyalist brethern?

Chaos pros:

-Bolt pistol, close combat weapon and frag grenades on everyone
-Leadership 9, partially offset by their lack of "and the shall know no fear, but on the other hand the most annoying units are fearless anyway
-Marks, some of which are awesome
-Obliterators
-Terminators that can have a mix of power weaponry, and combi weapons as well
-Demon princes
-Better pyschic powers, especially the lash
-Demons
-Better basic commander

Loyalists:

-Chaplains
-Land speeders
-Whirlwinds
-Assault cannons
-Scouts
-More bling bling for heroes

This does not bother me that much because I play Tau, but I was thinking of building a marine army some time in the future. But when chaos seems so superior, it just seems less fun.

You forgot drop pods; veteran skills; ven dreads that don't shoot their own troops; and doctrines.

Grand Master Raziel
25-01-2008, 17:14
What is this, a laundry list of everything you don't like about Codex: Space Marines? Some fair points, though. I have some remarks



loyalists:
+ powerfull advantage traits, while disadvantages aren't really disadvantages

Depends on the advantages and disadvantages taken. Some of the advantages are pretty mediocre. Scions of Mars is almost a disadvantage, because it takes away the SM Hero option and replaces it with a Techmarine with an extra wound. Yee-haw.. There's also one (I forget the name) that grants Veteran Squads (and only Veteran Squads) a 6+ Invulnerable save, but doesn't allow anyone in your army to take cover saves. Some of these "advantages" would really only be taken by someone trying to make a thematic army.

Ditto the disadvantages. While I will grant you that Eye to Eye and We Stand Alone are not really all that hampering, some of them (Aspire to Glory, Faithful Unto Death) are downright crippling. Again, someone pursuing theme will often choose the harsher disadvantages because they fit better.


+ more minmaxing cheese

Yeah, that's true, but the writing is on the wall for that business. Codex: Dark Angels gives us a pretty good idea what the future of SM armies is going to be like.


+ can take allies

True, but that's not necessarily as exciting as it might first appear. For the most part, taking allied DH or WH forces would be something done more for thematic reasons than for practical ones. They just don't bring very much to the party that you can't do equally well (and often more cheaply) with stuff right from Codex: Space Marines.


+ rhino that doesn't count as opentopped after shooting out with scouts

Scouts can't take Rhinos. They have no transport option whatsoever.


+ plascannons whereever you want them

True, and pretty nifty.


+ multimeltas whereever you want them

True, but less nifty. Multimeltas suck as an infantry weapon, because they're Heavy 1. You're better off taking regular meltaguns in your squads, because at least you can move and shoot with those. MMs are much better suited to being vehicle-mounted weapons - fast vehicles in particular.


+ scout bikes

Scout Bikes are almost sexy enough to be a good unit, with the emphasis on almost. Their main upside is that their per-figure points cost is probably right about where bikes (anybody's) should actually be. Their downsides: downgraded armor save, maximum squad size of 5, and no upgrade options other than kraks/meltabombs and whatever a Veteran Sergeant can carry. In all my years of playing, I've never seen anyone actually use Scout Bikes, and I think I'm the only SM player in the Northeastern United States who's ever even considered using them.


+ infiltrating, scout moving, jetpacked character ( in the lines of former chaos codex's demon prince of doom, just with scout movement )

That would be Captain Shrike and Shrike's Wing. You can only use them if you play a Raven Guard army. He also is only T4 and doesn't have an Invulnerable save, and Shrike's Wing is wicked expensive.


+ Rites of Battle makes LD10 through the whole army anyway ( so basic marine has LD10 unlike basic CSM who only has 9 ) and the model that grants it is good enough to take even without RoB

Rites of Battle is cool, but let's be clear about something: you only get the Ld10 thing if you take a SM Hero (specifically the 3-wound Master) as one of your HQs. If you don't, you get the SM base leadership 8, with 9 for squads with a Vet Sergeant. Chaos, on the other hand, has base Ld 9, boosted up to 10 by Aspiring Champions.


+ ATSKNF

Geeze, is it okay with you if Space Marines have something that's cool and unique to them?


+ auxpexes ( at least old chaos couldn't take them )

The rules for auspexes were broken, in that they hardly ever worked. An infiltrating unit can't be set up within 18" of an enemy unit that can draw LOS to it. An auspex lets the unit it's in take a free shot, before the first turn, at any infiltrating enemy unit within 4d6" of them. Sounds cool, but the average roll on a D6 is 3.5, therefore the average roll on 4d6 is 14 - 4" short of what's required to get that free shot. In order to get the shot, you have to roll considerably higher than average. The only unit I can think of that might be able to reliably use the auspex shot would be...wait for it...Scout Bikes, and that depends on what order you think pre-game actions occur in. Personally, I'd argue that they take place in the same order as they would in a regular turn, so movement before shooting, as applicable, but I've never seen any official ruling on the matter - probably because no one uses Scout Bikes. So, in a nutshell, auspexes are really only worth taking if you have a couple free points to spend to bring your list up to exactly a certain number of points. Plus, they're not in the newer SM dexes anyway.


+ razorbacks

Which suck. Seriously, they suck. If you transport a squad with them, but move slowly enough to be able to use the turret-mounted weapon, you might just as well have the unit walking, and have a second infantry unit providing cover fire instead of sinking points into a vehicle that's more expensive than a Rhino and just as fragile. On the other hand, if you use the 'back to move the squad as quickly as you can, you might just as well have taken a Rhino and saved points. Plus, Razorbacks have a reduced transport capacity and sacrifice the Rhino's firing point to get that turret mounted weapon. So, no popping the hatch and firing out from a Razorback. The only thing I've ever used a Razorback for is as the personal ride of a Techmarine and his retinue of tech servitors, and that was more for the extra lascannon than anything else. The only reason I took a transport for that unit at all was because I was playing an armored strike force list, so the theme required that everything either have a transport or be inherently able to move fast. In this regard, Chaos is far better off, because Chaos players can just slap a Havoc launcher onto their Rhinos, gaining them respectable firepower and sacrificing neither troop carrying capacity nor the top hatch firing point.


EDIT:
+ annoying 3 (or was OMG 4?) points advisor who grants +1I, gives a wound against shooting, doesn't slow down the librarian, and when combined with furious charge renders your librarian dishing out I7 STR5 forceweapon attacks
+ wannabe techpriest enginseer with most annoying armour of doom which is better yet cheaper then terminator armour... and that guy allows to reroll a failed to hit roll OF THE UNIT HE JOINED

The techpriest is basically an overpriced Veteran Sergeant with an ability to fix damaged vehicles that's not very good unless you give him a retinue of Tech Servitors, in which case he can't go around joining squads.

The Librarian build is, admittedly, awesome. It was one of my favorites. Almost as soon as Codex: Space Marines came out, I converted a couple of libbys to have familiars. That said, it should also be remembered that the only way a Libby can get Furious Charge is by being assigned to a Command Squad with the ability during the list writing phase, so he can't leave it unless it gets killed. That's not a huge drawback, because the Codex: Space Marines Command Squad is actually a pretty awesome unit, but it's not like you can have pet-toting, Furious Charging, jump pack-equipped super-Librarians running around all over the place. Anyhow, Librarians, unfortunately, go back to sucking in the DA-style dexes: less (and often worse) powers, no familiar, no Veteran Skills, and they can't get an invulnerable save unless you buy them Terminator Armor, which is the same price it costs in Codex: Space Marines, but doesn't confer the extra attack anymore. So, if you think the Librarian is broken, he's on track to get sorted. Chaos Sorcerors are a lot better than DA dex-style Librarians.

StanMcKim
25-01-2008, 17:21
don't forget assault cannons.
-Stan

ReveredChaplainDrake
25-01-2008, 18:14
I don't think a lot of these things mentioned were either knocks (Vanilla cheeziness) or assumed to be useful (Techmarine, Razorback), but were simply noted as differences.

However, I do see the OP's point. I have a Black Templar army and a Night Lords army. Now seeing as how Chaos combines my love of 3+ saves with my love of fistfuls of dice, the Night Lords are quickly becoming my all-purpose army, even superceding my otherwise-cool Tyranids. But my Black Templars have atrophied to disuse due to the fact that the Chaos Codex is great now, and in 4th ed as a whole (as my gaming club would say) Black Templars suck at life.

The Chaos Marines get:
-free Grenades
-Ld9 base, up to 10 with a Sergeant
-5-to-20-men squads who can all be in Power Armor, and
-a Bolter, a Bolt Pistol, and a CCW... each.

Meanwhile there's the Black Templars Initiate...:
-who has Ld8 with no possible upgrades (without a Marshal eating up a precious HQ slot)
-who break test on every casualty
-who have to pay 3 pts / model to get the grenades that Chaos always get for free
-who have to choose whether they want a Pistol and CCW or a Bolter
-who are the only troop choice in their codex
-who think the most appropriate reaction to getting the bejeezus shot out of them is to run forward and leave cover (possibly even winding up in enemy Assault Range)
-who are always subject to a vow that has just as many disadvantages as it has advantages
-who suffer -1Ld for Target Priority checks, and
-who are... more expensive than Loyalist / Chaos Marines? :wtf:
[/rant]

AmBlam
25-01-2008, 19:20
Its worth mentioning that it is not necessarily the number of benefits a particular codex has over another but the quality of them. Rending vs No rending being case point.

logosloki
25-01-2008, 21:54
The two big pros you forgot for space marines are And They Shall Know No Fear and Rites of battle. Minor pros include combat squads, or at least the option of combat squads, codex support and drop pods.

For Chaos the two big pros are Demon weapons, except khorne's and the magic.

For a twist, I suggest you make a wordbearer's force using the marine codex but limit yourself in the style of the new dark angels or blood angels codex options, that way a force you create is redux ready

Imperialis_Dominatus
25-01-2008, 22:05
Its worth mentioning that it is not necessarily the number of benefits a particular codex has over another but the quality of them. Rending vs No rending being case point.

We can get rending... on a dice roll. If you take a generally-considered-underpowered unit with beautiful models. One out of six battles.

jonog2004
25-01-2008, 23:12
The biggest loyalist advantage is 'And They Shall Know No Fear', it's amazing.

Other main pro's for me include landspeeders, chaplains and whirlwinds, but that's just my opinion.

For Chaos, the extreme variety in the list is their main advantage, you can basically do anything with Chaos, and their elite units and characters are better than any unit loyalists can field.

Baaltharus
26-01-2008, 00:06
ATSKNF is not such a great advantage as people seem to think, its ONLY useful when your troops are being mauled, something which your aiming to avoid anyway. Ld 10 is much more useful both in general (even before adding the additional cc weapon into the equation). Ld10 protects you far better from breaking in the first place, target priority, pinning, enemy psychic powers like mind war and fear of the darkness, casting your own psychic powers and odd weapons like neural shifters. Overall far more useful (something which many people, including Gav Thorpe seemed to have missed).

xibo
26-01-2008, 00:36
ATSKNF grants AUTOMATIC rallying below half strength, even if having failed last man standing test, allowing to fire heavy weapons __immidiately__ after rallying, allowing to charge after rallying, allowing to move after rallying, and iirc it also autorallies marines less then 6" to an enemy. And marines may still do their 3" reposition for rallying, allowing them to move 9" through open terrain after fall back ( rallying isnt a term for them as they never were running anyways ).
And with ATSKNF you also don't have to worry about squads of you starting to run in the last turn ( ie. don't count as scoring/holding objectives ) as they automatically rally and therefore score / hold again...
ATSKNF is much greater then fearlessness, even if the models with it had only Ld8...

FireN.Brimstone
26-01-2008, 00:56
You can't really look at the old codex, you must look at the Dark Angle or Blood Angle codex as that is where the Loyalists are going.

Once you do this what strike me immediately is that Loyalist are better at shooting (combat squads), and Chaos is better at assault (basically A2).

Additionally ATSKNF basically means the Marines have better leadership (even IF they don’t take a Chapter Master).

Of coarse once you start looking at the “bling” that Chaos gets, the tide seems to go in there favor, but remember you have to PAY for the bling ;)

Dragonlv8
26-01-2008, 01:00
Which suck. Seriously, they suck. If you transport a squad with them, but move slowly enough to be able to use the turret-mounted weapon, you might just as well have the unit walking, and have a second infantry unit providing cover fire instead of sinking points into a vehicle that's more expensive than a Rhino and just as fragile. On the other hand, if you use the 'back to move the squad as quickly as you can, you might just as well have taken a Rhino and saved points. Plus, Razorbacks have a reduced transport capacity and sacrifice the Rhino's firing point to get that turret mounted weapon. So, no popping the hatch and firing out from a Razorback. The only thing I've ever used a Razorback for is as the personal ride of a Techmarine and his retinue of tech servitors, and that was more for the extra lascannon than anything else. The only reason I took a transport for that unit at all was because I was playing an armored strike force list, so the theme required that everything either have a transport or be inherently able to move fast. In this regard, Chaos is far better off, because Chaos players can just slap a Havoc launcher onto their Rhinos, gaining them respectable firepower and sacrificing neither troop carrying capacity nor the top hatch firing point.

Id watch what your saying there, my friend has a razor back, it is feared for good reason.
On my birthday we played apocolypse, 1st turn it killed there land raider, in a more recent battle he killed my vindicator 1st turn before I even got the chance to fire a single bullet.

Baaltharus
26-01-2008, 03:20
ATSKNF grants AUTOMATIC rallying below half strength, even if having failed last man standing test, allowing to fire heavy weapons __immidiately__ after rallying, allowing to charge after rallying, allowing to move after rallying, and iirc it also autorallies marines less then 6" to an enemy. And marines may still do their 3" reposition for rallying, allowing them to move 9" through open terrain after fall back ( rallying isnt a term for them as they never were running anyways ).
And with ATSKNF you also don't have to worry about squads of you starting to run in the last turn ( ie. don't count as scoring/holding objectives ) as they automatically rally and therefore score / hold again...
ATSKNF is much greater then fearlessness, even if the models with it had only Ld8...

Incorrect on some counts, SM do not auto rally if there is an enemy within 6", they continue to fall back. If they start running away in the last turn they count as destroyed I believe as you rally automatically at the start of your turn (which there isn't one of).

ATSKNF is not much greater than fearless by any means, not only are the fearless chaos units usually ld10 anyway for the benefits I've included above they don't break at all negating any need for the benefits you've listed. Also, if SM get caught while falling back from cc they suffer wounds the same as fearless units.

I stand by my belief that ld10 is just as good as ld 9 +ATSKNF.

Grand Master Raziel
26-01-2008, 05:12
Id watch what your saying there, my friend has a razor back, it is feared for good reason.
On my birthday we played apocolypse, 1st turn it killed there land raider, in a more recent battle he killed my vindicator 1st turn before I even got the chance to fire a single bullet.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Just because a Razorback will occasionally do something useful does not mean that it's not generally a waste of points. It's actually worse than a waste of points, because it's easy to kill, and the heavy weapon it mounts generally makes it worth killing even if it's empty.



I stand by my belief that ld10 is just as good as ld 9 +ATSKNF.

That might be a little strong, but the Icon of Chaos Glory is at least roughly equivalent to ATSKNF (personally I think it's slightly better), especially when you consider that Chaos units generally have higher leadership than their nearest loyalist counterparts. Rites of Battle help make up for that disparity, but can be gotten rid of if you can manage to gank the SM Master on the table, whereas you can't get rid of Chaos' Ld10 unless you can somehow get rid of each and every Aspiring Champion on the table. The only way I can see that happening is with the luckiest Vindicare Assassin in the world, hitting and wounding every turn.

Dragonlv8
26-01-2008, 06:56
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Just because a Razorback will occasionally do something useful does not mean that it's not generally a waste of points. It's actually worse than a waste of points, because it's easy to kill, and the heavy weapon it mounts generally makes it worth killing even if it's empty.


corection, it always dose something useful and for that reason om fielding no tank models against him next time ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-01-2008, 07:01
corection, it always dose something useful and for that reason om fielding no tank models against him next time ;)

Lucky trends occasionally trump sound army composition.

Grand Master Raziel
26-01-2008, 07:44
Lucky trends occasionally trump sound army composition.

ID, you're like the exact opposite of me. What I would spend half a page explaining in verbose prose, you manage to convey with a single dry understatement.

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-01-2008, 07:49
ID, you're like the exact opposite of me. What I would spend half a page explaining in verbose prose, you manage to convey with a single dry understatement.

I have my moments when it comes to long posts (blatant plug to all: read my fluff! /blatant plug), but yes, I do tend to be concise. ;)

Xenocidal Maniac
26-01-2008, 09:19
Anyone who thinks Ld10 is better than ATSKNF is a fool. Chaos Marines can be sweeping advanced. They don't rally if under half. Etc etc etc.

ATSKNF is the single best special rule in the game, hands down.

logosloki
26-01-2008, 10:09
Anyone who thinks Ld10 is better than ATSKNF is a fool. Chaos Marines can be sweeping advanced. They don't rally if under half. Etc etc etc.

ATSKNF is the single best special rule in the game, hands down.

nah, that goes to either the rez orb, We'll Be Back or Rending. Also the fact that all space marines can deepstrike or infiltrate even if the mission doesn't allow it (drop pods, terminators and scouts respectively)

Grand Master Raziel
26-01-2008, 13:28
Where are you getting your information? Scouts only get to infiltrate if the mission they're playing has Infiltrate.

detrimentus
26-01-2008, 13:34
Well the Chaos Marines get Ld9, and I'm not sure if its in the new codex but if they get Mark of Undivided then they get to re-roll that. If given any Marks it gives them fearless anyway.

ATSKNF is handy, but its not like CSM are screwed in the Ld department.

Baaltharus
26-01-2008, 14:30
Anyone who thinks Ld10 is better than ATSKNF is a fool. Chaos Marines can be sweeping advanced. They don't rally if under half. Etc etc etc.

ATSKNF is the single best special rule in the game, hands down.

I'm a fool am I? Well thats your opinion and one backed up by two points, both of which rarely apply to CSM as they rarely fall back in the first place. As I've already stated Ld10 has far more uses above and beyond ATSKNF. Stick on 100% more attacks and you're getting a bargain your not paying any extra points for.

xibo
26-01-2008, 14:50
When saying LD10 squads are rarely overrun one could imply that necrons rarely are defeated...

Baaltharus
26-01-2008, 15:01
Thats just ridiculous exaggeration, just because a squad is rarely rundown does not mean they are somehow unbeatable. This game is often won on objectives and even when its not, wiping squads out in close comabt or with ranged fire produces the exact same effect as running them down.

Blitz 7
26-01-2008, 15:10
Neither list is better...it is how the player uses it, that makes it good or bad.

Baaltharus
26-01-2008, 15:17
Only true to an extent, if you were to take the 'new' SM lists and the new Codex Chaos as competitive/beardy as possible you can make a more powerful army with the CSM list in no uncertain terms. The winner is by no means going to be the chaos player as chance and player skill will no doubt make a huge difference, however the initial advantage will lie with the CSM player due to the strength of the list.

yommtz
26-01-2008, 15:20
i dont think anyones a fool but i think atsknf is better than ld 10... with an icon it seems about equal but still atsknf would win out in my mind if i was forced to choose
but in full disclosure i prefer assaulty to shooty and can see if you had a shooting army the higher ld could be nice...

Cuda
26-01-2008, 19:16
I'm a fool am I? Well thats your opinion and one backed up by two points, both of which rarely apply to CSM as they rarely fall back in the first place. As I've already stated Ld10 has far more uses above and beyond ATSKNF. Stick on 100% more attacks and you're getting a bargain your not paying any extra points for.

I've escorted more SM's off the table than I failed LD 10 Chaos Marines Leadership test. AC's Ld 10 and a reroll from Chaos Glory goes a long way especially from squads larger than 10 men. I agree with Baaltharus.

Cuda...

junglesnake
26-01-2008, 20:12
You can't really look at the old codex, you must look at the Dark Angle or Blood Angle codex as that is where the Loyalists are going.

Once you do this what strike me immediately is that Loyalist are better at shooting (combat squads), and Chaos is better at assault (basically A2).

Additionally ATSKNF basically means the Marines have better leadership (even IF they don’t take a Chapter Master).

Of coarse once you start looking at the “bling” that Chaos gets, the tide seems to go in there favor, but remember you have to PAY for the bling ;)

I agree with this, on a basic slog it out I would say Chaos fall short of Loyalists but when options and said "bling" are brought in then sure they have additional benefits.

However what people have to realise that is with some of these items of "bling" all it takes is for the character/model with it to die horribly and all of a sudden that benefit is gone.

ALL space marines have ATSKNF and untill they are all dead will always have it.

To add to what has already been said in thus quoted post - DAs and BAs are better all-round shooters, remember they have Bolters and Bolt Pistols as standard meaning that although they may not be as good in combat they are going to do about the same amount of damage on the way in.

As for Razorbacks - they are fine. It is still cheaper to get a standard five man squad and pay for the razorback and heavy weapon than it would be to invest in another 5 marines with a heavy weapon that hasn't got the re-rolls.

And yes I know people will argue that that particular heavy weapon has effectively five wounds but firstly you can forget about moving and shooting like the Razorback and secondly you are looking at a wasted 5 guys sitting there hoping something comes into range. So all in all - I would take the Razorback over the five men.

Edit: Or at least 4 out of the 5 who will be out of range for most of the game!

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-01-2008, 21:14
Well the Chaos Marines get Ld9, and I'm not sure if its in the new codex but if they get Mark of Undivided then they get to re-roll that. If given any Marks it gives them fearless anyway.

True on one count, false on another. If given another Icon than Chaos Glory, they do not gain fearless. That's cult troops only.

Baaltharus
26-01-2008, 21:15
I'm not quite getting this, loyalist are better at shooting because they have combat squads, right?...Chaos players can just take 2 five man squads. Sure they won't have the option of a heavy weapon but I don't see many tactical marines or CSM for that matter being armed with heavy weapons nowadays. As you said your just wasting the fire of the other troopers. Also why take heavy weapons on CSM when you have Obliterators, defilers, predators and Havocs?

You could also go down the Havoc heavy army with some troops totting special weapons, then you'll be better at shooting and close combat as even your heavy weapon specialists also have 2 attacks. Sit in cover with a few counter attack units and you'll give some of the best cc troops a run for their money.

zoodog
26-01-2008, 23:37
I think this argument was far easier to make with the old chaos codex. I don't think the disparagy between the more recent codexes is that great.

I do think that ATSKNF is on of the better if not best special rules, if the edition change rumors are correct then it will increase even more as you will likely run from things malling you and will be able to shoot them them with heavy weapons or charge back in the next turn

junglesnake
26-01-2008, 23:48
nah, that goes to either the rez orb, We'll Be Back or Rending. Also the fact that all space marines can deepstrike or infiltrate even if the mission doesn't allow it (drop pods, terminators and scouts respectively)

Nope - not Rending! Why is rending such a bid deal to people? The only army that has multiple standard rending attacks would be the Nids and I don't see many people complaining about it.

Other than that you are talking about marines of which it is potent but your still unlikely to see many of them.

junglesnake
27-01-2008, 00:05
I've escorted more SM's off the table than I failed LD 10 Chaos Marines Leadership test. AC's Ld 10 and a reroll from Chaos Glory goes a long way especially from squads larger than 10 men. I agree with Baaltharus.

Cuda...

Right sure - how much is it basic then?

Say 10 chaos space marines with these marks Vs 10 vanilla marines?

Because I think this is getting out of context. On top of that we are only talking about basic infantry.

Assault marines - comments?
Speeders - comments?
Terminators - comments?

Also if I am not wrong if you want those marks you have to pay them for every unit right? Again its not something that is standard - if it becomes a standard choice I would ask if perhaps it is cheap in points cost for what it does?

And Ld10 is not as good as ATSKNF Ld10 can be modified whereas it does not matter as much if you are looking at ATSKNF.

But again this one factor is not going to change the balance of armies. I don't think either is more powerful per-se. I think many things are being over-looked.

For example if you compare CSM with the vanilla marine codex you are looking at one of the longest serving codex's for this edition Vs one of the newest and if rumours are to be believed, one that is one foot in the next addition of the game.

If you compare it to DAs and BAs then ofcourse you will spot more obvious frailties but that's the point of chapter specific Codecies. For example should they do a Khornate army you would see a very much close combat orientated army with very few heavy weapons or tanks leaving it open to ranged attacks and armies with swifter movement that could be stemmed with fire power.

The biggest problem I have had with the Chaos and the Ork codecies in the last few edditions is that they seem to have destroyed some of the old fluff.

By this I mean that Orks used to have the Bad Moons, Goffs, Deathskull Lootas and Blood Axes. Each had their own traits - when they decided to put 2nd edition to the sword which it much needed, they said they were going to try and produce codecies that reflected how these races really fought as people would fight with patchwork armies of a unit of this and a unit of that. It seems to me instead we just have plain armies with no particular orientation once more.

Occulto
27-01-2008, 01:21
Does anyone here (between this thread and the one about bolt pistols I'm not sure) realize the time gap in development between C: CSM and C: SM?

Quoted for truth.

C: SM was written at a different time, with different intentions. Its days are numbered (unless it's the first codex GW have ever released that's not going to be updated... ever).

Anyone who thinks that C: SM are going to be the only army that can take cheaper powerfists and min/maxed squads is deluded. :p


By this I mean that Orks used to have the Bad Moons, Goffs, Deathskull Lootas and Blood Axes. Each had their own traits - when they decided to put 2nd edition to the sword which it much needed, they said they were going to try and produce codecies that reflected how these races really fought as people would fight with patchwork armies of a unit of this and a unit of that. It seems to me instead we just have plain armies with no particular orientation once more.

*chuckles*

Well they did release the WD Klan rules. (Probably the crappiest, blandest rules ever...)

Baaltharus
27-01-2008, 08:29
Right sure - how much is it basic then?

Say 10 chaos space marines with these marks Vs 10 vanilla marines?

Because I think this is getting out of context. On top of that we are only talking about basic infantry.

Assault marines - comments?
Speeders - comments?
Terminators - comments?


Well as has been stated clearly already, you get far more for the cost with a CSM unit than you do with a new SM unit.

If we compare the other units you list we can see that raptors are better than assault marines (they get 2 meltas for cheaper than two plasma guns, these weapons are more powerful than the plasmas and don't stand a making the user a casulty. Further more, raptors get their full complement of attacks regardless of having a 2 handed special weapon...go figure).

Speeder/Tornado variant is 100 points (largely overpriced but nm), for that you can get so many better units from codex chaos.

Terminators, again CSM terminators are better, larger equipment choices and some wonderfully undercosted plasma weaponry to take advantage of those cheap icons which call them into place without fear of scattering.

Havocs are also better than devastors because they don't have to waste points on a veteran sergeant, they can more reliably defend themselves with 2 attacks each and there higher ld means they are better at target priority without having to pay any extra points.

Seems that there is a continuing trend where the CSM units are infact superior to the SM equivilants. And yes, Ld 10 still remains just as good if not better than ATSKNF and ld 9.

junglesnake
27-01-2008, 15:05
Well as has been stated clearly already, you get far more for the cost with a CSM unit than you do with a new SM unit.

If we compare the other units you list we can see that raptors are better than assault marines (they get 2 meltas for cheaper than two plasma guns, these weapons are more powerful than the plasmas and don't stand a making the user a casulty. Further more, raptors get their full complement of attacks regardless of having a 2 handed special weapon...go figure).

Speeder/Tornado variant is 100 points (largely overpriced but nm), for that you can get so many better units from codex chaos.

Terminators, again CSM terminators are better, larger equipment choices and some wonderfully undercosted plasma weaponry to take advantage of those cheap icons which call them into place without fear of scattering.

Havocs are also better than devastors because they don't have to waste points on a veteran sergeant, they can more reliably defend themselves with 2 attacks each and there higher ld means they are better at target priority without having to pay any extra points.

Seems that there is a continuing trend where the CSM units are infact superior to the SM equivilants. And yes, Ld 10 still remains just as good if not better than ATSKNF and ld 9.

I find this a little confusing at points because you don't specify which SM codex you are referring to.

As I have said better than the vanilla marines? BA? Or DAs?

For example should you say DA's I'm pretty sure you don't get the option of fielding an army of Terminators - each squad potentially wielding an assault cannon - better than plasma options.

I think they are pretty balanced in all fairness - I just think that the vanilla marines are due a change and its hard to know with these rumours of a new edition who knows what it will mean.

Baaltharus
27-01-2008, 16:13
I've always been refering to the new SM (ie DA and BA) in all my posts, my apologies if I hadn't made that clear.

With the DA codex you can field an army of terminators but I've read its rather difficult to play and win with. Also, the assault cannon is really not that likely to make back its points as effiiecently as a squad of CSM termies with plasma and the odd melta gun/flamer. For the cost of assault cannon you can have three powerfists, 4 combi-plasma guns and a combi-melta (for instance), overall far more effective. Not only this but with the coming nerf of the assault cannon (or more accurately rending) its even less likely to match all those weapons.

AngryAngel
27-01-2008, 18:32
Well as has been stated clearly already, you get far more for the cost with a CSM unit than you do with a new SM unit.

If we compare the other units you list we can see that raptors are better than assault marines (they get 2 meltas for cheaper than two plasma guns, these weapons are more powerful than the plasmas and don't stand a making the user a casulty. Further more, raptors get their full complement of attacks regardless of having a 2 handed special weapon...go figure).

Speeder/Tornado variant is 100 points (largely overpriced but nm), for that you can get so many better units from codex chaos.

Terminators, again CSM terminators are better, larger equipment choices and some wonderfully undercosted plasma weaponry to take advantage of those cheap icons which call them into place without fear of scattering.

Havocs are also better than devastors because they don't have to waste points on a veteran sergeant, they can more reliably defend themselves with 2 attacks each and there higher ld means they are better at target priority without having to pay any extra points.

Seems that there is a continuing trend where the CSM units are infact superior to the SM equivilants. And yes, Ld 10 still remains just as good if not better than ATSKNF and ld 9.


Very true, and at least a voice of space marine reason exists. The current vanilla marine dex will be phased out, more on the line with the DA codex. Of which the current chaos codex is better then it when it comes to options.

Points being our dreads are expensive, and granted, won't shoot us.

Anything that can even have an assault cannon is restricted, and over costed.

I'd even go so far as to say the CSM units can be more shooty then SM. For one thing their squads can have 2 specials for 10 man, and I believe a champ with a combi plasma. Which is alot of plasma shots.

Not taking into account their aspiring champs also having great weapon options. Terms being able to take combi plasma, and also being cheaper then standard terms. Teleport homers everywhere with icons. For DA to have any teleport homers it costs the price of 3 RW bikers with a vet sgt. I think that is a good deal more expensive, and vulnerable then an icon in a troop squad.

The only benefit, even remotely is combat squads on them to split heavy weapons from the other half of a squad. With the rumored rule changes loyalists won't even be able to do that without very serious risk to just lose the heavy weapon right off with wound placing.

Heck, they even have a super dread in form of a Defiler. So they don't need to use the unpredictable chaos dread to get a dread like thing on the board, with a battle cannon. Or some vindicators, or heck some oblits who are still very much good. With some deep striking plasma doom term squads rolling up.

So yeah you can't field a whole army of terms for chaos, you can field them in elites, and heavys. Just sticking to still dead hard troops, like some plague marines, thousand sons which I think can count.

Oh as well the chaos psychic powers are amazingly better then all of the DA powers combined. They'll probably end up just being better then vanilla marines once they get redone.

junglesnake
27-01-2008, 23:36
I've always been refering to the new SM (ie DA and BA) in all my posts, my apologies if I hadn't made that clear.

With the DA codex you can field an army of terminators but I've read its rather difficult to play and win with. Also, the assault cannon is really not that likely to make back its points as effiiecently as a squad of CSM termies with plasma and the odd melta gun/flamer. For the cost of assault cannon you can have three powerfists, 4 combi-plasma guns and a combi-melta (for instance), overall far more effective. Not only this but with the coming nerf of the assault cannon (or more accurately rending) its even less likely to match all those weapons.

If they are combi are they not one shot with the Plasmas and Meltas? If so I would say that I would still take the assault cannon over them.

AngryAngel
28-01-2008, 00:16
With a 6 turn game, if you have half a brain, you'll only need one good volley to cripple or wipe out the unit you've landed your terms near. Especially considering for the DA and BA an assault cannon is worth 4 combi weapons.

As well 4 combi meltas is almost guaranteed to take out a tank, just like 4 combi plasmas will almost always destroy a heavy infantry squad. An AC has a chance, to do both however it isn't as good as either of those options.

Xenocidal Maniac
28-01-2008, 01:03
Well as has been stated clearly already, you get far more for the cost with a CSM unit than you do with a new SM unit.

If we compare the other units you list we can see that raptors are better than assault marines (they get 2 meltas for cheaper than two plasma guns, these weapons are more powerful than the plasmas and don't stand a making the user a casulty. Further more, raptors get their full complement of attacks regardless of having a 2 handed special weapon...go figure).

Speeder/Tornado variant is 100 points (largely overpriced but nm), for that you can get so many better units from codex chaos.

Terminators, again CSM terminators are better, larger equipment choices and some wonderfully undercosted plasma weaponry to take advantage of those cheap icons which call them into place without fear of scattering.

Havocs are also better than devastors because they don't have to waste points on a veteran sergeant, they can more reliably defend themselves with 2 attacks each and there higher ld means they are better at target priority without having to pay any extra points.

Seems that there is a continuing trend where the CSM units are infact superior to the SM equivilants. And yes, Ld 10 still remains just as good if not better than ATSKNF and ld 9.

Awww, poor baby. Yeah, the poor loyalist marines really have the short end of the stick.

It's funny, because I win far more often with my Dark Angels than with my Chaos Marines.

Have you ever even used Chaos? You don't know what you are talking about.

Edit: why don't you complain about something that really warrants complaining about? Like the broken-ass Eldar codex.

Occulto
28-01-2008, 05:04
With the DA codex you can field an army of terminators but I've read its rather difficult to play and win with.

Yup, it's hard to play and win with. That's half the attraction! :D


Also, the assault cannon is really not that likely to make back its points as effiiecently as a squad of CSM termies with plasma and the odd melta gun/flamer. For the cost of assault cannon you can have three powerfists, 4 combi-plasma guns and a combi-melta (for instance), overall far more effective. Not only this but with the coming nerf of the assault cannon (or more accurately rending) its even less likely to match all those weapons.

Assault cannons fire more than once - you don't get that with combi-weapons. It's got a better range too.

There's more to DW termies than just an assault cannon. Being fearless, the Cyclone Missile Launcher, the apothecary and standard bearer, deathwing assault...

Baaltharus
28-01-2008, 19:13
Awww, poor baby. Yeah, the poor loyalist marines really have the short end of the stick.

It's funny, because I win far more often with my Dark Angels than with my Chaos Marines.

Have you ever even used Chaos? You don't know what you are talking about.

Edit: why don't you complain about something that really warrants complaining about? Like the broken-ass Eldar codex.

Bit sad, loose the argument, start whinging and make a bad attempt to mock me. And yes, I have used chaos, I play against them all the time and I infact own a BL army. I clearly do know what I'm talking about having shown very clearly that CSM are superior to loyalists.

On a side note, the Eldar codex isn't broken and if the 5th edition rules are anything to go by they'll be taking a fall in effectiveness when it comes out.

Prodigy-88
28-01-2008, 20:36
This looks great. thanks

Supremearchmarshal
28-01-2008, 21:43
IMO Chaos is far better than loyalists (the redux DA/BA codexes).

Army Rules
ATSKNF is great, as are Drop pods, but Chaos does gets Icons, which means almost any unit can effectively have a teleport homer. Also Glory Icon is dirt cheap and goes a long way to make up for no ATSKNF.
-loyalists somewhat better

HQ
Daemon Prince is fantastic for his points and the Sorcerer is much better and more versatile than the Librarian. The CSM don't have a Chaplain, but that doesn't make up the former two. Lord and Commander are pretty evenly matched IMO - Rites of Battle and 4+ inv vs. better WS and, Mark and some Daemon Weapons.
-chaos better

ELITES
Chaos Termies are far more versatile than loyalists, and the base cost is much cheaper. The Loyalists get a few weapons the CSM don't, but I'll take cheaper Termies, combi-weapons, icons and the ability to mix weapons any day.
Scouts are nice and cheap, but Chosen are tougher and have many more special weapons. Veterans are nice, but can't infiltrate (DA at least).
Loyalist Dread is better than Chaos Dread, but Dreads aren't all that good generally.
Techmarine is crap. Possessed are crap.
-chaos much better

TROOPS
Chaos win hands down. DA have only the Tactical Squad. Chaos has five units each with a different role.
-chaos much better

FAST ATTACK
Chaos Bikers can summon, but loyalists can regroup even under 50% strength and can get an Attack Bike. Pretty even IMO.
Scout Bikers are mostly useless in the current codex, and the new Codexes don't even have them. CSM have their own useless unit - the Spawn.
Land Speeder is great, one of the key advantages the loyalists have over Chaos.
Raptors are much better than Assault Marines - same CC ability, but get much more options and are cheaper.
-loyalists a bit better because of the Land Speeders. But CSM do get far better Jump Infantry.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Pred and Vinidcator are essentially the same.
Land Raider is pretty useless IMO, though the Crusader is pretty good though a bit overpriced.
Chaos have Obliterators, which outclass just about any loyalist HS choice except maybe Devastators. Maybe.
Havocs are stronger than Devastators, but IMO Devastators are better because they get Plasma Cannons and combat squads.
Defiler is rather mediocre, but it does get a battlecannon - which none of the loyalists do. The loyalists get indirect fire in the Whirlwind, but it's only good against hordes.
-chaos better mainly because of Obliterators

Plus...
CSM get the Greater Daemon - very cheap for what it does. The loyalists don't get any MCs at all.\
-chaos better

Xenocidal Maniac
28-01-2008, 21:58
I clearly do know what I'm talking about having shown very clearly that CSM are superior to loyalists.


You have not. Until you produce some empirical data to support your claims, they are every bit as rubbish as mine.

logosloki
28-01-2008, 22:21
@Supremearchmarshal

Army Rules: I agree with you on this point

HQ:When you factor in special characters and the greater demons and also the command and terminator command squads I'd that that it is slightly in the loyalists favour, but only a on say a 53/47.

Elites: You forgot to mention the dreadnoughts, and I believe tha scouts are in the elites in these two codecii because of the extra special troops that these two codecii namely the assault marine in Blood angels and Deathwing or ravenwing in dark angels. Also you forgot death company and jumppack veterans so what I'll do is this:
Chaos vs Dark angels = Chaos win
Chaso vs Blood angels = blood angels win

Troops: the most versatile of basic troops on the chaos side, combined with 4 different cult troops mean chaos certainly win the most troops choices. Blood angels do get assault marines while depending on which special character you choose, and you will take at least one of them on the dark angels you'll either get deathwing (5man fearless asscannon or cyclone missile or heavy flamer) and/or ravenwing, which if you spend the points on just plain rule. I call a tie. I love the chaos space marine troops section and the other two aren't actually the normal space marine entries.

Fast attack: again I call tie, mostly because each of the section has a counter point to it. chaos bikers get the icon, marine bikers get the attack bike, chaos assault marines (I refuse to call them raptors) vs the assault marines is in favour of chaos due to the bigger size and icon. Finally you have the landspeeder and the spawn. I wont hold these in comparison since the spawn just isnt a landspeeder.

Heavy support: Chaos major victory, not only do obliterators just plain win on their own but the havocs are classes above the devastators because they can take special weapons (I didn't argue icon here because combat squads and ATSKNF actually even things up), the vinidcator and predator even each other up, same with the land raiders (cheaper and possessed vs Power of the machine spirit). The defiler is its own thing and can't be compared to the whirlwind, both pieces do what they do, but it isn't the same job. Witht he rise of the green moon I call the whirlwind vs defiler moot as one is good against hordes, the other is useful against meqs and both are fire sponges.

Looking back to when I first started posting I can see now that I actually believe they are even, It was great being able to compare each army unit for unit rather than such and such rule and such and such rule. Though I personally favour as a bias because of the chaplain. So in summary one is not better than the other, I believe we're trying to compare oranges with mandarins or peaches with nectarines. when it gets down to it, its personal taste

Baaltharus
28-01-2008, 22:59
You have not. Until you produce some empirical data to support your claims, they are every bit as rubbish as mine.

I have on several occasions produced evidence to show my claims but lets go through it one more time for arguments sake. Lets take the raptors vs assault marines.

Raptors have Asp champ with PF and 2 melta guns, icon of Chaos Glory. Assault Marines have 2 plasma pistols and a vet serg with a PF. Both the same price.

The units are almost the same except that the raptors have a massive advantage in that their melta guns are far more powerful and thus giving them the further advanatge of versatility (killing heavy tanks head on, downing MCs and characters far better than the assault marines) while also retaining their FULL complement of attacks regardless (oh and not killing themselves and loosing an expensive special weapon to boot). The raptors also have a teleport homer.

Oh and if the 5th edition rules are correct then the CSM whos transports get wrecked while there in it while be less likely to be pinned. One more reason why ld 10 is better than ATSKNF.

In conclusion the CSM unit is SUPERIOR for the cost.

Xenocidal Maniac
29-01-2008, 00:19
I have on several occasions produced evidence to show my claims but lets go through it one more time for arguments sake. Lets take the raptors vs assault marines.

Raptors have Asp champ with PF and 2 melta guns, icon of Chaos Glory. Assault Marines have 2 plasma pistols and a vet serg with a PF. Both the same price.

The units are almost the same except that the raptors have a massive advantage in that their melta guns are far more powerful and thus giving them the further advanatge of versatility (killing heavy tanks head on, downing MCs and characters far better than the assault marines) while also retaining their FULL complement of attacks regardless (oh and not killing themselves and loosing an expensive special weapon to boot). The raptors also have a teleport homer.

Oh and if the 5th edition rules are correct then the CSM whos transports get wrecked while there in it while be less likely to be pinned. One more reason why ld 10 is better than ATSKNF.

In conclusion the CSM unit is SUPERIOR for the cost.

What you cited is subjective and situational. Please look up the definition of "empirical".

Anyway, we're going around in circles, and I don't really care enough to continue. You win. Or whatever.

Baaltharus
29-01-2008, 00:36
You can't really give empirical evidence mate, the best you can do is look at it roughly from the maths side of things, consider some usual scenarios and churn out some numbers. This evidence, while far from perfect clearly demonstrates that the advantage lies with the CSMs.

Baaltharus
29-01-2008, 00:51
Raptors retain their 2 cc weapons and thus have their full number of attacks, silly but true. I'm using the BA cost minus the points for the DC (this puts them 5pts more than the raptors in the comparison I gave but I didn't think it mattered that much).

Icons count as teleport homers as well as being able to summon daemons so your terminators can arrive 6" from your icon bearers without fear of deviation.

AngryAngel
29-01-2008, 04:01
I gotta agree. Chaos is the better choice. Their troop choices are just plain better then DA choices. Deathwing is crazy expensive, for just a 2 plus save. The deathwing assault is not a very amazing ability, hence why the whole deathwing armies don't even really use it.

The ravenwing are as well, too expensive for a relatively vulnerable unit. I'd take the 15 pt basic chaos troops with their two attacks all the time, 3 on the charge. As well the diffrent cults are just very very strong,

In fast, chaos bikers are better. The icons help make them that. Toughness 6 bikes anyone ? As well as also being then teleport homers, just like the ravenwing.

The landspeeder is nice, however very expensive and if the rumors are to be believed won't be near as good in 5th ed.

The assault marine vs raptors debate, shouldn't even be one. Raptors are cheaper with more options, and nice extras in the form of icons. Which yeah you pay for, however you can use some of the pts your saving from their squad cost on that.

Elites chaos terms, better, not only more teleport homers around, but cheaper with more weapon options and not restricted to size of 5 men.

Chosen, more weapon options and actually have some skills. DA vets are not as good, they just aren't less options, no skills aside from combat squads which is questionable.

Dreads really are too expensive for DA, and not all controllable for chaos. Scouts yet again, questionable of use, however they can infiltrate like chosen but aren't near as nice as them.

Heavys Havocs, better then Devs as the can take specials or heavies.

Pred or vindi about the same.

Land raider better for chaos. As even with daemon possession they are cheaper. For one they outright ignore shaken or stunned, they lose a BS skill, oh no. All their guns are twin linked anyways.

Crusaders they just don't have, so go loyalists on that.

Oblits are just good, I don't even need to explain why.

Defilers, well they have fleet even if they don't want to shoot. At the very least at least they have two options for what kinda dread like walker they may want.

HQ's I'm kinda up in the air about. I tend to like my loyalist options more. Though chaos tends to be stronger here power wise.

Greater demons..yet again..very good..nothing to compare them with in the loyalists arsenal.

For all the many extras chaos can get. The loyalists have ATSKNF and drop pods..which while giving a safe deep strike for Tac marines and the like. Is 50 pts, and gives half vp just on showing up.

hush88
29-01-2008, 04:42
I gotta agree. Chaos is the better choice. Their troop choices are just plain better then DA choices. Deathwing is crazy expensive, for just a 2 plus save. The deathwing assault is not a very amazing ability, hence why the whole deathwing armies don't even really use it.


Oh brother of mine, how could you say that, even if it is true?:cries:

Baaltharus
29-01-2008, 12:04
I'm pretty sure the drop pod doesnt count as being immobilised when it lands for VP purposes, I can't find it in the BA codex but I think I read it in a FAQ. Could be wrong though.

Supremearchmarshal
29-01-2008, 12:56
@logosloki

Well it is true that I didn't include special characters, mainly because I don't use them - but I'll agree the loyalists are better. The loyalists still don't get the DP, though. Terminator command squad is rather pointless since CSM can simply take better Termies as an elites.. Death Company are good, true, but their numbers are limited.

As for troops, BA can get assault squads, but like I said when comparing to Raptors I don't have a high opinion of Assault squads (Veteran assault squads are good, but they're Elites). Deathwing and Ravenwing are really expensive and IMO Chaos Bikers and Termies are actually better.

All in all I don't think Chaos are much more powerful, but they do have a definitive edge over the loyalists.





I'm pretty sure the drop pod doesnt count as being immobilised when it lands for VP purposes, I can't find it in the BA codex but I think I read it in a FAQ. Could be wrong though.

They do give VPs when they land - check out the SM FAQ.

Baaltharus
29-01-2008, 13:28
Thats what I've said, the CSM codex gives you a significant edge over loyalists in many ways but it won't decide the battle by itself. Why such apparent flaws were allowed to go unchecked seems ridiculous to me (oh wait, Gav Thorpe, that explains it).

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
29-01-2008, 14:48
do you really think that chaos is such awersome compared to SM codex ?

you forgot about :

-whirlwind
-infiltrating/tank hunting tacticals/devastator
-las plas
-cheap fists
-cheap chaplains
-customizable characters
-FOTA

if you compare them with DA - CSM is stronger.

if you compare them with BA - CSM is on par
[death company/vas/whirlwind/combat squads/overcharged rhino/baals/ATTACK BIKES/Special CHaracters]

AngryAngel
29-01-2008, 15:31
Oh brother of mine, how could you say that, even if it is true?:cries:

Brother, I am a DA through and through, and hate chaos with all my being. However, the truth is still the truth. It is however testament to my love of our chapter, I carry on even knowing such. It makes victory all the sweeter in the end for the sons of the lion.


I'm pretty sure the drop pod doesnt count as being immobilised when it lands for VP purposes, I can't find it in the BA codex but I think I read it in a FAQ. Could be wrong though.

No it does give half vp on landing, all drop pods do. It sucks, but its true.


do you really think that chaos is such awersome compared to SM codex ?

you forgot about :

-whirlwind
-infiltrating/tank hunting tacticals/devastator
-las plas
-cheap fists
-cheap chaplains
-customizable characters
-FOTA

if you compare them with DA - CSM is stronger.

if you compare them with BA - CSM is on par
[death company/vas/whirlwind/combat squads/overcharged rhino/baals/ATTACK BIKES/Special CHaracters]


We're comparing chaos to the actual "new" set up space marines will have. They won't have, fully customizeable characters, cheap fists, cheap lasplas as they will need to be 10 guys. The chaplain will stay more then likely, but he isn't all that cheap if you give him a jump pack to go with an assault squad.

Vanilla marines won't have infiltrating, tank hunting devs/tacs. As well a whirlwind is of dubious use. I'd hardly say its an awesome weapon platform. It's cheap, as it should be considering it may very well do nothing the whole game against high toughness/save armies. With proper spacing it'll be hard to get a large amount of hits even with the best placement.

Blindsniper
29-01-2008, 15:33
do you really think that chaos is such awersome compared to SM codex ?

you forgot about :

-whirlwind
-infiltrating/tank hunting tacticals/devastator
-las plas
-cheap fists
-cheap chaplains
-customizable characters
-FOTA

if you compare them with DA - CSM is stronger.

if you compare them with BA - CSM is on par
[death company/vas/whirlwind/combat squads/overcharged rhino/baals/ATTACK BIKES/Special CHaracters]


I've always though we should not take in account special characters. Where I play, nobody uses 'em. Custom characters are nicest!

As for the comparisons, the Space Marines Codex is OLD, but let's see:

-Whirlwind - Not bad. Not astonishingly good. Defilers are way better in my opinion, even taking in account that they're suited for different purposes.

-Infiltrating/tank hunting tacticals/devastator - Yeah, traits are great, but you can infiltrate chosen with equiparable firepower or better close combat capability.

-las plas - Chaos Space Marines can have 2 special weapons for better efficiency (just as loyalist can)

-cheap fists - Yeah, you'll save 30 points in a row, but you will invest 'em in rhinos, which are cheaper for traitors... There are lots of things that cost more or less between both lists, but most of them fall onto CSM's side (terminators, vehicles...).

-cheap chaplains - cheap daemon princes? Come on!

-customizable characters - Certainly, I didn't like the loss of the armoury, but indeed, the gear available for Space Marines characters does not give an edge to them.

-You missed Razorbacks, Land Speeders and Attack Bikes! They're great!


I play both (Lamenters and Death Guard), and I don't mind some unbalance. In fact, what I really dislike is that while Space Marines don't get anything new to their list, Traitor Marines have implemented a lot of things traditionally restricted to them (jump troops, vindicators, Lightning Claws...) and have new toys like the obliterators or the defiler. They just lack Land Speeders to have everything is worth something!

On the other hand, while ATSKNF is a great rule, 80% of CSM troop choices are Fearless, which is better IMO. AND we should not oversee that leadership is actually used for target priority tests mostly, where LD9 is -without doubt- better than LD8 and the "I'm running but I don't fear you" rule.

Salve!

AngryAngel
29-01-2008, 15:50
If they really had no fear they could choose to pass or fail any morale check they were called on to make and the auto rally part. ATSKNF is kinda like the poor mans fearless. While fearless is more zealous determination to stay in something, despite rather wishing to fall back. Fearless should be fanatical.

StanMcKim
29-01-2008, 19:19
You guys are forgetting the matter of points and numbers. In my experience, Chaos Space Marines are generally out numbered by their loyalist counterparts. Sure a 10 Chaos Marines are better than 10 Space Marines, but if I give that squad of Traitors a Mark, all of a sudden those Loyalists have a lot more bolters than I do. This applies to the heavy support section as well. Oblits are great but they're damn pricy. A unit of 3, 6 wounds, is over 150 points and not immune to instant death. Sure they're good, but thats 10 more Loyalists. It simply depends on the list.
-Stan

TzeentchForPresident
29-01-2008, 20:27
You have forgotten a few things. Like you canīt compare the Space Marine Codex with CSM because the former is getting kinda outdated. You will have expensive plasma pistols someday as well. ;)

And another minor point, a SM army can have defence vs psychic attacks using Psychic Hood, Chaos has no such defence, thus Lash of Submission is best used vs another Chaos army rather than Space Marines :p

However the SM players has a point. A CSM army with no marks, icons, possessed, spawns, daemons, obliterators and led by terminator lord(s) with no Daemon weapons is a very playable and powerful force, since such army can field more troops and most likely more firepower than CSM armies that is using Chaos elements.

The question is, should a CSM army with no "chaos" in it, really be powerful or even playable? And the second question if one wanted to field a rebel SM space marine army with no Chaos elements why not simply use the regular SM list like the Relictors did? I donīt understand why is it even possible to make such list with the CSM codex. After all they are named chaos space marines, not (chaos) space marines.

( I donīt have the the CSM codex in front of me, but I think a CSM lord can be taken without marks, unsure though.)

BrainFireBob
29-01-2008, 20:33
He can.

I've done my IW that way, because they trust their wargear, not Chaos.

Blindsniper
29-01-2008, 20:51
You guys are forgetting the matter of points and numbers. In my experience, Chaos Space Marines are generally out numbered by their loyalist counterparts. Sure a 10 Chaos Marines are better than 10 Space Marines, but if I give that squad of Traitors a Mark, all of a sudden those Loyalists have a lot more bolters than I do. This applies to the heavy support section as well. Oblits are great but they're damn pricy. A unit of 3, 6 wounds, is over 150 points and not immune to instant death. Sure they're good, but thats 10 more Loyalists. It simply depends on the list.
-Stan



That's not necessarily true. You can outnumber loyalist Space Marines by not using marks nor cult troops. Your average marine is better kitted, you have demons, which are a tad cheaper (not speaking of usefulness) than powerarmoured infantry, you have cheaper vehicles and terminators; and thus you're not in worst conditions than Space Marines, because you have almost equal variety to choose from.
Besides, you can have cult troops, which are really great for their cost. So I don't see your point here.

You don't need obliterators as you can field havocs and predators, but oblits are a great choice to have indeed, aren't they? And loyalist will not outnumber you anymore after some Thounsand Son's bolter love anyway.


Cheers.

Baaltharus
29-01-2008, 21:48
I made all these points (by and large anyway) when Codex Chaos came out and so many people denied the CSM were superior despite it being shown in rathe obvious terms. Its good to see given a little time people can see things for what they are.

Blindsniper
29-01-2008, 22:00
I made all these points (by and large anyway) when Codex Chaos came out and so many people denied the CSM were superior despite it being shown in rathe obvious terms. Its good to see given a little time people can see things for what they are.


A healthy mind always bears a little of self esteem... ;)

AngryAngel
30-01-2008, 01:15
Other people saw it, they just needed to get over the power drop shock.

Baaltharus
30-01-2008, 04:22
Perhaps your right, I remember being both shocked and appauled at the time at the denial of the obvious. @blindsniper, I feel a generous dose goes down the best lol:evilgrin:

alphastealer
30-01-2008, 07:20
One thing I find when I play my marines vs chaos is my inability to drop their greater demon and demon prince in cc. I have tried the hidden fist but that hardly ever works and chaos ends up carving through my squads like they were a joke...which compared to those units..they are.

A commander with power weapon is just as fragile since he is stil lhitting with a S4 against T5-6 so very little chance to wound. Whereas he is getting wounded on a 2+ with 4-6 attacks...so 8/10 times he dies in round 1 of cc.

I see this as the major loyalist weakness, their inability to go toe to toe with monsterous creatures. Even the librarian only has S4 force weapon. Basically I would like to see characters able to take a S6 force weapon to even out the odds. Similar to grey knights.

I get owned by the flying prince / flying demon prince combo and currently there is not a lot to do about it. Shooting them is pointless with decent cover and they tend to get into cc by turn 2.

Baaltharus
30-01-2008, 09:29
Daemon princes are a little underpriced for what they can do but giving marines Grey Knight weapons is far from the answer. Give your commander a powerfist and he'll be able to take a few wounds off it, support him with a squad with a hidden fist, the daemon will have to attack the squad OR the character meaning even if one is wiped out he'll still be taking hits from the other.

Support this sort of tactic with a little fire power, a few plasma shots, missles/meltas and nice dose of bolter fire and you'll see the daemon prince go down easier than you though. The greater daemon is a pain and ridiculously undercosted but it can be downed with a healthy application of firepower. Its also slow so don't waste your time engaging it if you don't have to.

Supremearchmarshal
30-01-2008, 12:46
If they really had no fear they could choose to pass or fail any morale check they were called on to make and the auto rally part. ATSKNF is kinda like the poor mans fearless. While fearless is more zealous determination to stay in something, despite rather wishing to fall back. Fearless should be fanatical.

In RT Space Marines became "shaken" when they failed their first morale check, essentially meaning they cannot move towards the enemy until they "regrouped". Only if they failed two morale checks in a row did they fall back. Pretty decent rule IMO, when you take into consideration that SM were generally weaker back then.
In the current rules I think it's rather ridiculous that a SM has LD 8 - like a Veteran Guardsman or Eldar Guardian.

BajsArne
30-01-2008, 13:18
That was 2nd edition, not RT.

Supremearchmarshal
30-01-2008, 13:19
Not their original RT rules, but they did get the morale rules at the same time as T 4 - and that was before the 2nd edition.

Edit: just checked - it was WD 129

BajsArne
30-01-2008, 13:48
It was? I got started at 2nd edition and I remember white dwarf explaining all the new things, among the T4, morale rules and 3+ save. And rapid fire. WD129 you say? I say!

Supremearchmarshal
30-01-2008, 15:10
I think it was because the WD 129 rules were "optional" (but used by 95% of the players :angel:). And they didn't get the 3+ save and rapid fire until 2nd edition...

AngryAngel
31-01-2008, 04:38
In RT Space Marines became "shaken" when they failed their first morale check, essentially meaning they cannot move towards the enemy until they "regrouped". Only if they failed two morale checks in a row did they fall back. Pretty decent rule IMO, when you take into consideration that SM were generally weaker back then.
In the current rules I think it's rather ridiculous that a SM has LD 8 - like a Veteran Guardsman or Eldar Guardian.

I agree, it is a little silly.

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-01-2008, 17:10
One thing I find when I play my marines vs chaos is my inability to drop their greater demon and demon prince in cc. I have tried the hidden fist but that hardly ever works and chaos ends up carving through my squads like they were a joke...which compared to those units..they are.

I find that hidden fists are more for taking out regular Independent Characters. Against MCs like the Daemon Prince, it's probably more prudent to use firepower. Find ways to delay his approach and set up fire lanes to take him out. Use a sacrificial squad of Scouts or something if you have to.


A commander with power weapon is just as fragile since he is stil lhitting with a S4 against T5-6 so very little chance to wound. Whereas he is getting wounded on a 2+ with 4-6 attacks...so 8/10 times he dies in round 1 of cc.

That's because a commander with a power weapon is in no way equipped to take on Daemon Princes. Seriously. That's like using a heavy bolter against a Land Raider. It won't work.


I see this as the major loyalist weakness, their inability to go toe to toe with monsterous creatures. Even the librarian only has S4 force weapon. Basically I would like to see characters able to take a S6 force weapon to even out the odds. Similar to grey knights.

No. You can take on MCs with what you have (even if the DP is a little undercosted). Just because what you're doing isn't working doesn't mean Joe Chapter needs anti-Daemon specialist equipment.


I get owned by the flying prince / flying demon prince combo and currently there is not a lot to do about it. Shooting them is pointless with decent cover and they tend to get into cc by turn 2.

It's all about deployment then. Set up units far enough apart so that the Prince doesn't consolidate into new assaults. All of a sudden, he's open for firing when he chews through that unit.