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xibo
25-01-2008, 01:07
Hi

First of all, while I played (old) chaos, (old) tau and IG alot, I never really played eldars. But ever since i played against eldar i had the impression of eldar guardians being a lesser threat then anything else.
Now that the IG point thread is going around basic guardsmen being too expensive ( which imo is true ), I wonder if it's just me or if others also think there's something wrong with guardian ( especially defenders ). I mean they are virtually guardsmen ( with close order drill ), either standing around a __heavy weapon and getting killed slowly but sure, or tott forwards with meltguns or flamers, most of the time dying on the way. Eldar guardians have the fleet skill which is nice and all, but really, is there a point of eldar defender guardians being more expensive then guardsmen? Their higher I and Ld is compensated by their shriken catapult's crappy range already.
And the Storm Guardians may be same expensive as IG Guardsmen with Warrior Weapons doctrine but they are same the useless in combat though ( ok, ig vetsearge doesn't wound on 2+, but meeh, he's cheaper and totts a mastercrafted weapon if you want ).
Maybe in my area there are no propper eldar players, but as I see it guardians are just cannon fodder, just with the problem that eldars are not supposed to use meatshield tactics... which is reflected by their high point costs, but really, wouldn't 4+ armour or better arms or something like that be more appropriate to them?

Captain Micha
25-01-2008, 01:11
Xibo, the shuricat is better than a lasgun.

also storm guardians I think were meant to be used with an Avatar. as a tarpit from hell loaded out with as many flamers as possible.

Guardians do have a use, as a heavy weapons platform that is also mobile. Guardians are not much more than a tarpit unit in my book regardless though. Partially due to the fact everything is pretty much ap5 or better.

xibo
25-01-2008, 01:33
Xibo, the shuricat is better than a lasgun.
the shurrikat's only advantage over a lasgun is the one more in strength which additionally to wounding t<6 stuff better also grants the ability to harm tanks from their rear. the lasgun on the other hand has twice the range. which gun is better will mostly depend on whether you're going to run towards your foes or stand and shoot.


also storm guardians I think were meant to be used with an Avatar. as a tarpit from hell loaded out with as many flamers as possible.
I wonder, if you charge a target worthy of the avatar with him and a squad of say 10 guardian defenders, don't the guardians die quickly without avoiding the dangerous ( = powerfist ) attacks going onto the avatar? If you charge e.g. 10 jump pack marines with chaplain with an avatar and said 10 storm guardians, the avatar kills about 3 marines on the charge, the chaplain 2 guardians, and the others should result in maybe 2 or 3 dead marines and alot of dead guardians meaning you loose combat, while the vetsearge funnily punches his powerfist/hammer on your avatar.


Guardians do have a use, as a heavy weapons platform that is also mobile. Guardians are not much more than a tarpit unit in my book regardless though. Partially due to the fact everything is pretty much ap5 or better.
that's why i wrote __heavy. but however that ability is not incredibly strong imo, as i would try to find a nice 4+ cover hideout for guardian defenders to stay in and fire their heavy weapon out of ( maybe i played IG squads with HW too much ). Of cause that ability works wonders when guardians are running of board and happen to stand close to an enemy character while having a brightlance, but that rarely happens, right?
Against everything other then IG or Tau charging your guardians against them means sacrificing them for sure with little or no hope to have them make their points back in CC, and against tau or IG their power is limited too ( tau 4+ armour and photon grenades, ig cheap troopers and most probably another squad around which has nothing more to do then to charge the guardians in response ).
AFAIK the guardian champion can buy a skill that grants 5+ cover saves, which i think is absolutely obligatory...

Captain Micha
25-01-2008, 01:36
you forgot a shuricraptapult has ap 5 and it is assault 2.

I think you can have a larger squad than 10 stormies... I'd use 20 if I'm going for tarpit.

Destructor is a really nice power. Actually all of the warlocks abilities are. I've seen destructor and 2 flamers work, and it is a horrifying affair to be hit by 3 flamer templates and then beat up on in assault.

Baaltharus
25-01-2008, 01:41
Your right Xibo, guardians are overpointed and pretty much useless. However, its probably not the points but the rules which make Guardians suck. If they had 4+ armour they might be moderately useful but their weapons and their combinations are just bad, you don't see any other armies putting lascannons in their short ranged units.

Guardians are only useful when manning vehicles and jetbikes.

xibo
25-01-2008, 01:56
The only relevant situation of the crappapults being assault 2 instead of rapidfire 12" ( the AP5 is just a freebee and worthless in 99% of the games ) is when your guardians are like 3" away from a squad of guardsmen or firewarriors and you desire to shoot them and charge them afterwards. if they are guardsmen they are most probably all dead or running away after you did so, and tau are just famous for knowing the greater good wants them to report at the other side of their table border... besides of cause fire warriors most probably shot guardians to bits before they came into range.

20 guardian defenders have "target " "mortars"/"griffon"/"whirlwind"/"whatever" " here" written all over them. even though they are immune against pinning or defecting while close to the avatar they still take alot of casualties ( arguably you would be taking them anyway but the probability a whirlwind completely misses a ~6 squad of banshees is much higher then missing 20 guardians ).

About the destructor power i have to agree. flamers are always fine. ridiculous enough i don't remember ever to have seen a warlock cast a flamer template on anything of me...

EDIT:
@Baaltharus: You *could* consider to put a 10 marines squad with CCW&BP and a lascannon/plasgun with vet with PFist somewhere, to be effective while shooting and also considerably dangerous in CC too... and at 205P blue with aehm... purple stripes power armour codex ( traits ) they are about same the expensive as 20 guardians with brightlance and 5+ cover skill ( i think, don't have the codex here )... I don't want to do the math but i guess marines would munch those 20 guardians usually in combat even without using their las/plas even once.
4+ armour is a sosolala, as eldar guardian armour is supposed to withstand bolt impacts by fluff, but ingame it's rather the bolter which should become AP6 i think.

Baaltharus
25-01-2008, 02:10
OK now I have to disagree, in fluff terms Eldar mesh armour doesnt stand a chance at stopping a bolter round. Nowhere have I ever read anything suggesting otherwise. A bolter shell is a mini rocket, its ap5 is fine although if you were going on fluff terms it would probably be closer to ap 4.

banik
25-01-2008, 02:19
Guardians are at least as bad as you make them out to be. It's all because of their substandard weapon- it needs another 6 or 12" of range, and their crappy BS.

I'm afraid that, if the 5th Ed. rumors are true about scoring troop units, Eldar are going to be in deep doodoo.

pillbox
25-01-2008, 03:08
i have to be on the other side of the fence and say guardians are worth it if used with an overall plan. i havent tried stormies but my 17 strong guardians with elm and warlock with conceal provide a boduguard for my farseer and benefit from fearless from the avatar.
although they are not great, they are the cheapest way to get extra bodies on the field, as well providing one thing that most eldar units are lacking-versatility.
it can snipe tanks with ELM, stop a dread with 2 singing spears and ELM or charge headlong into combat knowing they should last for 2 rounds of close combat. and 34 catapult shots on a doomed unit can do some serious damage.
they provide a nice tarpit for my army and one that my opponents normally ignore until its too late (i.e eating catapults)

carlisimo
25-01-2008, 03:09
I think of mesh armor as protecting Eldar from death by bolter... but the impact is still enough to take them out of the fight (which is what counts in the game). I would guess fewer Eldar casualties are actually fatalities compared to a lot of other armies.

Anyway, Guardians have at least one use I've found: soften up the enemy with the only round of shooting you'll get, and then have someone else charge that enemy. That second part is crucial!

Prince Facestab
25-01-2008, 03:12
I rather like eldar troops. My armies in 4th usually include about 4 troop choices, of any of the varied options we're allowed.

I tend to use guardians in cover, blazing away with a heavy weapon, and a warlock with embolden. This gives a heavy weapon with a good range of fire due to its ability to move, and a squad that is quite durable and difficult to dislodge for its points cost. Alas that the shuricats probably won't do much, but the heavy weapon will still be blazing away.

xinsanityx
25-01-2008, 03:18
Guardians are worthless, and very overpriced. Look at an ork, he's 2 points less, but he gets a longer range gun, a higher toughness, a better weapon skill, more attacks, and furious charge. He loses some balistic skill, but the longer range of his weapon and cheapness make up for that, as well as his enhanced close combat capibility. He also loses an armour save, but the higher toughness is actually better protection than the guardians armour save. He can also have a 5+ cover save from a big mek just like a guardian can have from a warlock.

Now compare the guardian to a dire avenger. The avengers is much much better in close combat, and its longer range and higher BS is a huge advantage. I would rather have 2 Dire avengers, over 3 guardians, hands down. And the guardians ability to carry a mobile heavy weapon is really not worth it when its at a crappy BS and such a high price, on such a fragile unit. And if you want a tarpit unit, an avenger unit is the unit you need, not a guardian unit. An avenger unit will last much longer than the equivlent points of guardians.

pillbox
25-01-2008, 03:31
an avenger unit cannot take on armour though. i agree guardians are not a must have choice, but their versatility in an otherwise specialist army means i will find a spot for em. i also take em in big units (15-20) or not at all.

sabreu
25-01-2008, 03:47
I use alot of Guardian Defenders in my Eldar army, backed by warlock support. They work out pretty well and though I get scoffed at for not using harlies or falcons, I still have a pretty damn good win ration.

other than guardains, I tend to use two units of Dire Avengers and 1 pathfinder unit.

xinsanityx
25-01-2008, 03:48
If you want anti-tank and anti-infantry in the same squad go with guardian jetbikes in a squad of 6, with shuriken cannons, and a warlock with destructor. They're faster, more durable, better at hiding, better at taking objectives late in the game and better at killing tanks and infantry, and they'll do it quicker. All for roughly the same price as 15 guardians, a warlock w/ conceal and a bright lance.

Prince Facestab
25-01-2008, 03:58
If you want anti-tank and anti-infantry in the same squad go with guardian jetbikes in a squad of 6, with shuriken cannons, and a warlock with destructor. They're faster, more durable, better at hiding, better at taking objectives late in the game and better at killing tanks and infantry, and they'll do it quicker. All for roughly the same price as 15 guardians, a warlock w/ conceal and a bright lance.

Most of that is true, but they are definetly not more durable. On an individualy basis, yes, but the guardians will get more out of cover, are much harder to break, and their heavy weapon has way more ablative wounds. More weapons options on the guardians, too.

xinsanityx
25-01-2008, 04:17
I think the guardian jetbikes are more durable. When shooting at them you are basically shooting a marine, a marine that can have an invulnerable save if it moves fast. They can also move so fast they can take advantage of much more terrain than the guardians can, and they're assault move can also hide them from alot of shots. Guardian jetbikes are incredibly hard to target. They're higher toughness, save, maneuverability, and movement in the assault phase make them incredibly hard to kill as compared to guardians on foot.

As far as weapon options go, the only thing the jetbikes don't have that guardians do is a heavy infantry killer (starcannons.) They both have tank hunting weapons, they both have multi shot light infantry/light vehicle weapons. Guardians should never have a starcannon though, as there are so many things in the eldar army that kill heavy infantry much much more efficiently.

pillbox
25-01-2008, 04:22
leadership is a problem for the bikes, but the unit of 6 is something i would like to try out. would mean though my walking seer has no bodyguard if i swap the units unless i put him on a bike as well (more points) and less targets to doom (bikes flanking normally) and the avatar wont benefit from fortune.
the synergy of an eldar list is very important, with the combined whole more than the sum of its parts (yeah we all know that) my point is that my avatar would be almost useless without the 17 or so guardians + farseer behind him, but with them its a point in my army that i know the enemy will have to engage at some point (its about a 1/4 of my 2000pt list!) as it walks straight into the middle of the board, leaving my more mobile elements to make surgical strikes around it.

centy
25-01-2008, 08:38
i found large squads of agaurdians with a heavy platform to be good for holding up enemy squads for a long time. against most other troops in cc they will die but it takes time to kill 20 of them. that is time that the other units are romping around having a feild day and not being shot at.

Gorbad Ironclaw
25-01-2008, 09:18
Guardians are one of the travesties of the Eldar book, and have been since 3rd.

I still don't understand why they took what was arguably the best basic weapon in the game(the Shuriken Catapult) and turned it into one of the worst. A 12" assault gun is only useful if you are putting it on an assault trooper. And Guardians are most certainly not. Combined with making them cheap, and in big units it created the extreme paradox of a fairly crappy unit, that due to it's size and point cost were mostly a meat-shield, in what is the army least likely to have such a unit(well them and Dark Eldars).

The current Guardians need a serious rethink to fit any sort of background given on the Eldars, and could use it to be more than heavy weapon minders in the game as well. Sadly, no one seemed to wanted to do that in 4th edition, maybe there is more hope for an eventual 5th edition book.

Son of Makuta
25-01-2008, 09:54
I hope so. My Eldar are Swordwind. What the hell do I do when only troops can capture?? At the moment, I don't use Guardians at all! Oh well, guess I'll just have to 'spam out' on extra Pathfinders. Love me for it. :rolleyes:

Slightly OT, on that subject... would 4-5 Dire Avenger squads be effective?

Iracundus
25-01-2008, 10:24
Guardians are one of the travesties of the Eldar book, and have been since 3rd.

The current Guardians need a serious rethink to fit any sort of background given on the Eldars, and could use it to be more than heavy weapon minders in the game as well. Sadly, no one seemed to wanted to do that in 4th edition, maybe there is more hope for an eventual 5th edition book.

The modifications to improve the Dire Avengers shuriken catapults were a tacit acknowledgement of the problem. Why they then shied away from improving the Guardian version in some form or manner makes no sense.

Baaltharus
25-01-2008, 11:51
My guess would be so all the people wih Guardian units then had to go out and buy some of the new and improved Dire Avengers...

Guy McCool
25-01-2008, 12:08
It seems important to remember that cross-army cost comparissons really don't mean much, since the price is primarily a result of a unit's utility inside of it's own army. And, especially inside the otherwise very point heavy eldar army, guardians seem to be fairly priced at their current 8 points when certain factors are taken into consideration.

1) Versatility
As has previously been stated, Guardians can fill a lot of roles inside the typically specialist Eldar army. They can carry long range, heavy support weapons in the form of their support platforms, they can provide mobile close fire support with their Assault 2 shuriken catapults, and they can provide massed close combat assistance and more powerful close fire support in their Storm Guardian configuration. And, lets not forget, that they are the only Troop choice for Eldar that can really deal with vehicles.

2) Augmentation
It is important to note with Guardian, as it is with all Eldar units, the fact that they are more than simply the sum of their stats. The various support abilities provided by Farseers and Warlocks not only help add to the above mentioned versatility of the unit, but also serve to make the Gaurdian a much more formidable unit. With a Concealing Warlock attached and good placement, you've got fairly cheap heavy weapon unit with several ablative wounds with 4+ cover saves (assuming you have the unit in cover), made only more dangerous with a Guiding or Dooming Farseer which doesn't even have to be attached. To remove such a unit, an opponent is either going to have to devote large ammounts of heavy support fire to wiping it out, or assault it to get around the cover saves (a prospect made, while not impossible, difficult with the presence of the S4 shuriken catapults and the Warlocks Witchblade). And, of course, if these resources are devoted to taking out the Guardian squad, they aren't going after the more expensive but almost as fragile Aspect squads.

3)Comparative Price
Yes, Guardians are 8 points, in an army where most types of infantry (except Avengers) are at least 16 points, but are still only T3 with a slightly better armor save. While Guardians aren't the single most combat effective unit around, an Eldar player almost NEEDS to take a handfull to have sufficient numbers to divert some fire from those almost equally fragile but very expensive Aspects, especially if they're going heavy on more expensive units like Warp Spiders or Wraith Guard.

4)The Horde Factor
As effective as Aspect Warriors are in their given roles, sometimes, given their cost, it may simply be ineffective/inefficient to field them in large numbers. While the heavy hitting power of Banshees, Dark Reapers, Wraith Guard, Shining Spears, and Fire Dragons may be ideal against Marines, Necrons, and Suit heavy Tau, against footslogging Guard and Orks, swarms of Tyranid, and Kroot heavy Tau, using those highly specialised, point intensive units as a large percentage of your force can be less than good since, while they do hit hard, they often can't hit enough to tear through the large number of models they're up against. Enter the humble Guardian. At 8 points, it isn't quite as cheap as a single Kroot, Guardsman, or Ork, but in almost every case the Guardian has at least one advantage over it's cheaper foe. Higher initiative than any of them, more mobility than the Guardsmen or Kroot (Fleet of Foot for extra movement when you can't fire and Assault weapons so you can give them a volley and still assault, if its advantageous), a better save than the Orks (plus the fact that Guardians AP Orks with shuriken fire, but Orks can only break Eldar armor with their heavier weapons), not that a 5+ is an amazing armor save, but it is a bit better than nothing. Add to these things with the fact that you can have up to 3 template weapons in a storm guardian squad (2 flamers plus a Warlock with Destructor), and you have a unit that really shouldn't be overlooked when dealing with horde armies.

Trickle
25-01-2008, 12:54
2) Augmentation
...............With a Concealing Warlock attached and good placement, you've got fairly cheap heavy weapon unit with several ablative wounds with 4+ cover saves (assuming you have the unit in cover), ....

3)Comparative Price
Yes, Guardians are 8 points.......


I'm sorry but your arguments do not hold water.

They are *NOT* 8 points after you have paid for said heavy weapon + 40 more for a Warlock giving a measly 5+ cover save. 135 - 155 points is not cheap for a single bow skill 3 heavy weapon. You are better off without the Warlock imho and looking for natural cover.

------------------- my thoughts -------------------------------

I would like to see guardians go up to 9 points or even more, but get better abilities. BS4 for the heavy weapons (the models have advanced looking targeters even if these troops aren't regulars). The option for taking two platforms per squad would be nice.

I dont agree that storm guardians fit the current fluff for anything bar Uthwe (sp), but assuming they wont remove the option (for people with existing armies) then I would like to see them be allowed to take multiple warlocks and have the warlock price lowered by at least 5pts. Would be quite a fun unit then.

xinsanityx
25-01-2008, 21:59
My guess would be so all the people wih Guardian units then had to go out and buy some of the new and improved Dire Avengers...

I put a little feather on all my guardians heads, and ZAP!!! free dire avengers.

carlisimo
26-01-2008, 02:09
2) Augmentation
It is important to note with Guardian, as it is with all Eldar units, the fact that they are more than simply the sum of their stats. The various support abilities provided by Farseers and Warlocks not only help add to the above mentioned versatility of the unit, but also serve to make the Gaurdian a much more formidable unit. With a Concealing Warlock attached and good placement, you've got fairly cheap heavy weapon unit with several ablative wounds with 4+ cover saves (assuming you have the unit in cover), made only more dangerous with a Guiding or Dooming Farseer which doesn't even have to be attached. To remove such a unit, an opponent is either going to have to devote large ammounts of heavy support fire to wiping it out, or assault it to get around the cover saves (a prospect made, while not impossible, difficult with the presence of the S4 shuriken catapults and the Warlocks Witchblade). And, of course, if these resources are devoted to taking out the Guardian squad, they aren't going after the more expensive but almost as fragile Aspect squads.

Well said. The rest of your post too.

kikkoman
26-01-2008, 08:17
The new orks sorta screwed over the guardians

in 3rd ed, when orks were 8 n' 9 pts, the 8pt guardian could outnumber orks quite well, with a better gun for cannon fodder.

But now 6pt orks with 18" assault 2 guns, guardians are no longer king of the horde :/

well, I guess the 8pts is going towards adding extra wounds to your starcannon...

Irisado
26-01-2008, 13:40
It seems important to remember that cross-army cost comparissons really don't mean much, since the price is primarily a result of a unit's utility inside of it's own army. And, especially inside the otherwise very point heavy eldar army, guardians seem to be fairly priced at their current 8 points when certain factors are taken into consideration.

1) Versatility
As has previously been stated, Guardians can fill a lot of roles inside the typically specialist Eldar army. They can carry long range, heavy support weapons in the form of their support platforms, they can provide mobile close fire support with their Assault 2 shuriken catapults, and they can provide massed close combat assistance and more powerful close fire support in their Storm Guardian configuration. And, lets not forget, that they are the only Troop choice for Eldar that can really deal with vehicles.

2) Augmentation
It is important to note with Guardian, as it is with all Eldar units, the fact that they are more than simply the sum of their stats. The various support abilities provided by Farseers and Warlocks not only help add to the above mentioned versatility of the unit, but also serve to make the Gaurdian a much more formidable unit. With a Concealing Warlock attached and good placement, you've got fairly cheap heavy weapon unit with several ablative wounds with 4+ cover saves (assuming you have the unit in cover), made only more dangerous with a Guiding or Dooming Farseer which doesn't even have to be attached. To remove such a unit, an opponent is either going to have to devote large ammounts of heavy support fire to wiping it out, or assault it to get around the cover saves (a prospect made, while not impossible, difficult with the presence of the S4 shuriken catapults and the Warlocks Witchblade). And, of course, if these resources are devoted to taking out the Guardian squad, they aren't going after the more expensive but almost as fragile Aspect squads.

3)Comparative Price
Yes, Guardians are 8 points, in an army where most types of infantry (except Avengers) are at least 16 points, but are still only T3 with a slightly better armor save. While Guardians aren't the single most combat effective unit around, an Eldar player almost NEEDS to take a handfull to have sufficient numbers to divert some fire from those almost equally fragile but very expensive Aspects, especially if they're going heavy on more expensive units like Warp Spiders or Wraith Guard.

4)The Horde Factor
As effective as Aspect Warriors are in their given roles, sometimes, given their cost, it may simply be ineffective/inefficient to field them in large numbers. While the heavy hitting power of Banshees, Dark Reapers, Wraith Guard, Shining Spears, and Fire Dragons may be ideal against Marines, Necrons, and Suit heavy Tau, against footslogging Guard and Orks, swarms of Tyranid, and Kroot heavy Tau, using those highly specialised, point intensive units as a large percentage of your force can be less than good since, while they do hit hard, they often can't hit enough to tear through the large number of models they're up against. Enter the humble Guardian. At 8 points, it isn't quite as cheap as a single Kroot, Guardsman, or Ork, but in almost every case the Guardian has at least one advantage over it's cheaper foe. Higher initiative than any of them, more mobility than the Guardsmen or Kroot (Fleet of Foot for extra movement when you can't fire and Assault weapons so you can give them a volley and still assault, if its advantageous), a better save than the Orks (plus the fact that Guardians AP Orks with shuriken fire, but Orks can only break Eldar armor with their heavier weapons), not that a 5+ is an amazing armor save, but it is a bit better than nothing. Add to these things with the fact that you can have up to 3 template weapons in a storm guardian squad (2 flamers plus a Warlock with Destructor), and you have a unit that really shouldn't be overlooked when dealing with horde armies.

That is an excellent post. I congratulate you for it. I agree with all those points you make.

For all those of you who doubt the abilities of Guardians, I will simply say that I have used them in my Eldar army since the Eldar rules first came out for Rogue Trader, and I have always found a use for them.

Their flexibility, and numbers, relative to the majority of Eldar Aspect squads, are both vital to an Eldar army, and they are very good at defending dug in positions. They also make a very good offensive force if used in conjunction with other Eldar units.

It's true adding a Warlock makes them more expensive, but the Warlock really does make the squad a lot better, especially a Guardian Storm squad.

The argument for making Guardians BS4 does not hold any water at all. Guardians are civilians, they are average fighters nothing more. Any WS or BS of more than three is meant to be above average. It is, therefore, impossible in my opinion to increase the BS. (NB Black Guardians were the exception to this).

As for the range of Shuriken Catapults, just because they are short ranged does not mean that they are bad. What it does mean is that you need to use skill, speed, and tactics to get your Guardians into a position where they can make the most of their two shots per model. Or conversely, have them hold an area of the board which you know your opponent will want to capture, and unlease all that Shuriken firepower as soon as the enemy is in range.

Baaltharus
26-01-2008, 14:40
I think what most people feel (well I do anyway) is that Guardians are not point efficient and neither do they fit the Eldar background particularly well. If your trying to conserve your numbers, taking poorly armed and armoured civilians/militia into combat where they generally suffer a much higher casulty rate than aspect warriors is just a very bad idea.

Orbital
26-01-2008, 17:59
Slightly OT, on that subject... would 4-5 Dire Avenger squads be effective?
Oh absolutely. The only problem with them is that they won't be able to take out anything but the lightest tanks (which they will still find a challenge) and certain Elites with 2+ saves will be very difficult. But if you gang a bunch of Dire Avengers up on infantry and Bladestorm them, that unit is as good as gone. You won't regret having them, thats for sure.

Orbital
26-01-2008, 18:10
It is important to note with Guardian, as it is with all Eldar units, the fact that they are more than simply the sum of their stats.
This is an excellent point and probably the one that's most consistently forgotten in discussions like these.

Nebelung_13
26-01-2008, 18:22
No troop becomes instant elite ,so i kind of think guardians fills a decent role.

They are among the best regular troops points can buy in WH40K IMO. way more point worthy then canon fodder Imperial guard.

Orbital
26-01-2008, 18:29
I think what most people feel (well I do anyway) is that Guardians are not point efficient and neither do they fit the Eldar background particularly well. If your trying to conserve your numbers, taking poorly armed and armoured civilians/militia into combat where they generally suffer a much higher casulty rate than aspect warriors
I think you're missing an important point: Guardians don't go to the battlefield because all the Craftworld's Aspect Warriors want the day off. Guardians go out to battle because there IS nobody else. They don't want to fight, I'm sure; they do it because unless every Eldar fights, then every Eldar dies.

Not that I want to completely nerdify myself (I mean more than I already have), but if you remember in The Two Towers how everyone in Rohan who could hold a sword took up arms at Helm's Deep... even if they really shouldn't be soldiers... it was a similar kind of situation. Rohan simply did what they had to do.

So as far as Guardians go... nothing could be fluffier, really.

Irisado
26-01-2008, 18:43
I think you're missing an important point: Guardians don't go to the battlefield because all the Craftworld's Aspect Warriors want the day off. Guardians go out to battle because there IS nobody else. They don't want to fight, I'm sure; they do it because unless every Eldar fights, then every Eldar dies.

Not that I want to completely nerdify myself (I mean more than I already have), but if you remember in The Two Towers how everyone in Rohan who could hold a sword took up arms at Helm's Deep... even if they really shouldn't be soldiers... it was a similar kind of situation. Rohan simply did what they had to do.

So as far as Guardians go... nothing could be fluffier, really.

Quoted for truth, and for conjuring up a vision in my mind of various units of Eldar Aspect Warriors sitting around eating and drinking, while the Guardians hold the line ;)

In all seriousness though, this is a very important point. The Eldar rely on their Guardian units to give them sufficient numbers to field an army. There are more Guardians than Aspect Warriors (with the possible exception of a Biel Tan Swordwind force) in Eldar armies for this reason.

As Orbital says, they would prefer not to be on the field of battle, but they fight to defend the very existence of the Eldar race.

carlisimo
26-01-2008, 18:48
Just look at modern armies... they all have special ops forces, commandos, marines trained for more specific situations than army grunts, etc. Maybe those do the most killing. But you always need to follow them up with regular troops because those are the guys that hold on to objectives you've taken.

Guardian Defenders do that. They hang back during the fight, lend their help from afar and occasionally jump in if the situation gets ugly. But their biggest role is to control territory. That means either defending an objective or just creating a dead zone of space on the board that would be dangerous for an enemy to enter. Their 12" shooting range was probably meant to force them to be used that way - they can't attack anyone without exposing themselves, but a standard enemy squad can't get past them without at least one round of massed shuriken fire.

If your 40k tactics don't include blocking 12"-radius sections of the board with defensive units, then obviously you should look elsewhere.

kikkoman
26-01-2008, 20:38
I think you're missing an important point: Guardians don't go to the battlefield because all the Craftworld's Aspect Warriors want the day off. Guardians go out to battle because there IS nobody else. They don't want to fight, I'm sure; they do it because unless every Eldar fights, then every Eldar dies.

Not that I want to completely nerdify myself (I mean more than I already have), but if you remember in The Two Towers how everyone in Rohan who could hold a sword took up arms at Helm's Deep... even if they really shouldn't be soldiers... it was a similar kind of situation. Rohan simply did what they had to do.

So as far as Guardians go... nothing could be fluffier, really.



but at the scale 40k is at...
or just look at the Imperium. Space Marines are everywhere, there are miiiiiilllions of guardsmen for every space marine, space marines still get entire armies of their own. I do not think the number of Space Marines outnumbers the number of aspect warriors in the galaxy.


Aspect Warriors are dedicated Warriors. Eldar are extremely mobile, warp gates and all, they can get anybody anywhere anytime.

The fluff as it is supports all-Aspect armies without the need of the grots
Well, other than as cannon fodder and tugging around big gunz. Only in Epic would you absolutely need waves of Guardians.


BUT the current codex has plenty of options to represent non-horde, properly advanced/fluffy options

Dire Avengers- ws4 bs4 4+ with 18", sure they don't get heavy guns but they're elite basic troopers with strong defensive n' offensive upgrades. Excellent in representing Eldar technology and training.

Rangers= bs4! Ok, snipers mean they don't need it anyways. +1 cover saves too, sneaky guys with loooong range. Expensive too.
Excellent in representing Eldar training (sneakiness), technology (more sneakiness)

Jetbikes!= Ok, so you DO need to bring your civilians into battle. Their lives are valuable, yeah? So give them t4 3+ equipment that's blazing fast! An incredibly fluffy choice, demonstrates Eldar Technology (speed! can take a hit! But low numbers!)


So the Eldar troop choice has 3 great options. The Super Elite Eldar (fluffy!), the Super Sneaky Eldar (fluffy!), the Super Technology Speedy Eldar (fluffy!). And the Elites can become Speedy Technology too in a Wave Serpent with twin linked heavy guns. Winding up with a more accurate, faster, more expensive alternative to the guardian big gun mob.

and then there's "orks used to be more expensive than us" cannon fodder wave
http://us.games-workshop.com/e-zine/issues/blackgobbo-06/rulesqna/images/grots.gif
Orks also bring their painters, artisans, cooks and general civilian populace into war too when they don't have the numbers, armed with 12" assault guns, to tug aroung the big gunz da boyz don't like shooting, or just to stand in front of them and catch bullets. Maybe beyond coincidence these grots are lead by a propa boy with a monster killin' weapon analogous to the witch blade (grot prod) and something that stops the cowardly gits from running away (embolden/squig hound)

Even if you can complain about guardians, just remember, THERE'S THREE WAY FLUFFIER CHOICES IN TROOPS ANYWAYS!
Eldar have a great variety of Troop Choices that suits all kinds of players and their playstyles and their interpretations of fluff.

Wrks
26-01-2008, 23:50
As people have already said, it's all about how you use them and how they can be used. I field two 10-man squads of guardians in my army, and I'm really enjoying them. They are perfect for supporting and complementing other, more specialized troops. Have them joined by a Farseer and follow any other unit in your army and they will work wonders - your Farseer will be safe to support the specialized troops and the guardians will provide them with firing support and cover from potential assault. Plus their fluff is good.

Orbital
27-01-2008, 07:15
I use them in a variety of ways. Often, they get slotted in when I think "I could use one more gun here". Then, ~110 points later, I have a decently solid gun that's positioned to support something else that could use a bit more muscle.

Gauss
27-01-2008, 08:32
I,m sorry i just have to say this: carlisimo! I hate your Avatar! If i look at it too long i go crazy! There i said it. Please go on.

Blindsniper
27-01-2008, 15:26
I do not think the number of Space Marines outnumbers the number of aspect warriors in the galaxy.

Of course they do... Eldar are a dying race, and only a little fraction of them will ever train as an aspect warrior.
On the other hand, there are thousands of Space Marines Chapters whom recruit constantly to fill their ranks.
They constantly replenish, and more of them are raised using existing chapters geneseed.

But I mostly agree with the other points of your post.

Logan Vader
28-01-2008, 16:51
Guardians have filled a role for the last couple of editions. But 5th Edition is going to make things a little tight. Yes, we have Dire Avengers, yes we have Jetbikes and yes we have Rangers. All in all this does not counter the fact the guardians will not be fielded in an amount to cushion an enemy advance or a part of a spearhead.

On the note of Guardians my arguments are mostly against Defenders and not Storm.

As an Uthwe player of many years just getting back into the hobby I notice that the Dire Avenger is the replacement to Guardian units. Yes, Guardians get a weapon platform but the BS is not effective for firing those weapons. Weapon teams should get a BS 4 for this measure.

There are counter thoughts that if you attach a Farseer and Warlock they are amazing. Great, that's one unit. This is fine for the Average Eldar player. Most Eldar players field the lowest amount of troops or in this case Guardians as possible. I used to field 4-5 units of 15 guardians in the past, now it is 2 Dire and 3 Defender units. The point is there are not enough Farseers to go around to baby-sit multiple Defender units. Troop units should be autonomous without the General having to micro-manage them on the front lines.

Don't get me wrong, I love Defenders. But I also know that when playing Black Guardians with a BS 4, they were unstoppable. Having 4 units advance, with an effective 18" range, they were able to pump Shuriken death in any line. Loss of units would mean nothing I had enough bodies to absorb the ranged fire. When I get close I would unleash 41 shots at you.

I can see why they lowered the BS...but I think they should give the weapon teams a higher BS. Ach and for that note don't get me started on the heavy-weapon support guardian units! Those guys/gals should NOT have a BS 3...:confused:

Irisado
28-01-2008, 17:19
Your suggestion does not overide the fact Guardians are nothing more than civilians, hence even when using a weapon plaform there is no way that I can envisage their receiving a bonus BS.

It is possible to argue that the platform comes with targetting systems and such the like, which could allow them to re-roll missed shots for example, but such benefits would then be lost if the squad were on the move, so you would be creating something of a complicated system.

I personally don't feel creating such a system is really warranted. To get around the problem of Guardians having a BS of three, simply don't take the EML and Brightlance as your support weapons. The Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon and Starcannon all work well enough at BS3.

I feel that your point about Black Guardians perhaps explains why they the Craftworld Codex was scrapped. If they were as effective as you are suggesting, they were too good. Yes, Ulthwé background makes it clear that their Guardians are superior, but in gaming terms it way well have created an imbalance. I'm not an Ulthwé player, so I'm only making suppositions here, but it is important to recognise that Guardians are now a very well balanced unit, whereas Black Guardians probably trod a little too much into the territory of Dire Avengers.

Logan Vader
28-01-2008, 17:41
Granted the platform can move and granted they are civvies. Still when you look at modern warfare it tells a different tale. You give a regular solider a good weapon and training it will increase they ability to do what it is made to do, kill.

Twin-linking a weapon is waaay better than a BS 4. This is why I would prefer a BS 4 for the support platform. Once I started 4th edition I saw I'd be working with a BS 3 I moved down to weapons that shoot more. In the end i still can not concede that platform should preform better, civvie or not. There are plenty of National Guardsmen who are weekend warriors, could still shoot an apple off someone's head with high technology.

BS 4 for platform or they should remove the mandatory platform and keep to larger units so people can field 5 Defenders for a troop unit.

I do agree that there should be a clear delineation between Dire Avengers and Defenders!

Irisado
28-01-2008, 18:07
True, but the problem here is that Guardians are not regular soldiers, and this is why their BS has to be kept at three.

GW have already made an exception with the Fire Prism, so I can't see that they are going to make any more.

I agree that having such a high level of technology should benefit the Eldar, but I feel that it already does. The fact that Guardian squads can fire a weapon platform without penalty while on the move is indicative of the abilities of Eldar technology, so I still can't see a need to increase the BS. We'll probably, therefore, have to agree to disagree on this :)

It's interesting that you would like the choice of taking Guardians without a weapon platform. I'm not quite sure what a small squad of five would achieve with a weapon platform, let alone without one.

The way I see it is that Guardians are support troops, they interact well with all the Aspect Warrior squads and should never be sent into battle on their own. The fact that they can support any Eldar unit is their greatest strength, and this is why I always find a place for them in my Eldar army.

Captain Micha
28-01-2008, 22:26
Of course they do... Eldar are a dying race, and only a little fraction of them will ever train as an aspect warrior.
On the other hand, there are thousands of Space Marines Chapters whom recruit constantly to fill their ranks.
They constantly replenish, and more of them are raised using existing chapters geneseed.

But I mostly agree with the other points of your post.

Allegedly there are only a thousand chapters in existance.

If the Eldar were dying -that- badly they wouldn't be a playable race.

Also all eldar are trained to fight to some degree. That is why they have ws3 bs 3. Think of dire avengers as us marines, and guardians as army.

Orbital
29-01-2008, 05:28
I feel that your point about Black Guardians perhaps explains why they the Craftworld Codex was scrapped. If they were as effective as you are suggesting, they were too good. Yes, Ulthwé background makes it clear that their Guardians are superior, but in gaming terms it way well have created an imbalance. I'm not an Ulthwé player, so I'm only making suppositions here, but it is important to recognise that Guardians are now a very well balanced unit, whereas Black Guardians probably trod a little too much into the territory of Dire Avengers.

Just to fill in a few of the blanks in case you didn't know this: Black Guardians got a boost of +1 to either their BS or their WS. No other boosts. Dire Avengers have +1 to their BS, WS, armor save, and they can shoot 6" further (meaning they probably get to put that extra BS to work for more rounds before they have to go into assault). With the addition of an Exarch they can get an invulnerable save, can shoot an additional shot per turn, and can reduce their opponent's attacks in CC. This doesn't take into account the fact that the Exarch often brings a Powerweapon along with him. The +1 Black Guardians get to either WS or BS don't yet push them into Dire Avengers territory (if they were still around, that is).

Don't forget either that Black Guardians came with a cost: Ulthwe players could only field as many Aspect units as they had Guardian units, and no more (and only two of those Guardian squads could ever be Black Guardians). Choosing Black Guardians (which, unlike regular Guardians, are not a milita, but a standing army) meant closing off options. Dire Avengers don't have any limitations of that kind.

Helm
29-01-2008, 10:14
Sorry, but Guardian Defenders can be bloody brilliant at what they do, which is holding objectives. Most people use tham as either "screamindg kamikaze horde" to distract the enemy and get the catapaults into range, or as tankbusters with brightlances.

What they should be used for, and what fluff also suggests they should be used for, is to hold an objective that the Aspect Warriors have already swept over. 10-20 Guardians with Conceal and Fortune will not be shifted by enemy fire. It will not be shifted by an easy assault-anything that doesn't have Fleet will have to take at least one round of 10-20 catapaults firing before it can get into assault range. That's 20-40 Str4 AP5 shots. And if any tanks are around, the heavy weapon can at least do some damage.

Guardians are civilians, and should be treated as such. Don't use them as a primary combat unit. Use them as a solid support. Remember, the enemy should be distracted enough by the tanks and Aspect Warriors to let the Guardians do their job.

Vault-Dweller
29-01-2008, 11:00
I agree. While they should be (And are) useful, they should not be the units that wins the game.

Some posters have claimed that 8p is to expensive and cant compete with the horde armies troops (orcs, ig) But the thing is that eldar is not a horde army. So while a ork player can put most of his points in ork boyz to get an good horde army. The same can be said for tyranids. An Eldar shouldent expect the same result. I will not compare to IG as I believe they are slightly underpowered as a horde at the moment.

Bathfinder
29-01-2008, 13:22
I am nog going to argue the point that guardians are crappy for their points cost. (maybe they are, maybe thay aren't, I am just not going to express an opinion at this moment)
Ehat most prople (not all but most) is that they have to be considered in context, that is working together with the rest of the army.
Ok, guardians die like flies if you shoot at them? Make sure that they are not the best target. There is always something more dangerous and more expensive for your opponent to shoot than your by-reputation-crappy guardians. That is ************ great armour if you ask me :D. That said, their best use is haning slightly behind something more dangerous, regardless if they are advancing or not. It is ok to let your guardians advance screaming toward the enemy, as long as you remember to let a few avengers run screaming in front of them.
My favourite use of guardians: 1 moderate sized squad (10-15 +warlock depending on how many points I have left) with a scatterlaser (for taking potshots at all those pesky speeders and otktrukks) with embolden. Stck'em in cover. Most of the time babysitting the wraithlord on some fat objective. No one will bother with these fellows, and if that happens anyway: embolden is the way to go. I need the seer and the gun to stay on the field. A result of no one noticing this squad is an ancountable number of dead dreadnaughts and other vehicles comong too close to the singing spear that didn't do anything for 4 rounds. One of these units are great.

Orbital
29-01-2008, 14:49
Sorry, but Guardian Defenders can be bloody brilliant at what they do...
Enhanced Black Storm Guardians were nothing to laugh at, either. WS5, I5, 8 points? Sounds good to me. :)

Qualdinesh
29-01-2008, 17:43
I put a little feather on all my guardians heads, and ZAP!!! free dire avengers.


I did something similar, I took my 2nd ed guardians with crests and painted them up to look like Dire Avengers. :D

Irisado
29-01-2008, 22:13
Don't forget either that Black Guardians came with a cost: Ulthwe players could only field as many Aspect units as they had Guardian units, and no more (and only two of those Guardian squads could ever be Black Guardians). Choosing Black Guardians (which, unlike regular Guardians, are not a milita, but a standing army) meant closing off options. Dire Avengers don't have any limitations of that kind.

That was the trade off I had forgotten about. I suspected that I might have missed something, but I hadn't had the chance to go and look at my old Craftworld Eldar Codex, so thanks for filling me in.

boogaloo
29-01-2008, 22:41
thanks all... I'm seriously concidering dropping a guardian horde army on a buddy and all these talks are really quite helpful, in fact i tried starting a thread this helpful months ago but nobody wanted to partake. As for my opinion. 3rd ed guardians without Heavy Weapons were retardedly strong. For the points you saved on heavy weapons you could field more swarms. Defending really is a good idea with guardians. I can't say as i ever really thought to do that. I was always one for the screaming Kamikaze guardians. Putting aspect warriors IN FRONT of guardians is sheer genius. I always thought put the gribbly's in fron let the few that make it tie them up 'till I assault, but now that i think about it aspect warriors in fron of guardians really screws with your target priority, whereas guardians up front = Kill guardians THEN kill aspect warriors. Aspect warriors in front = Kill aspect warriors... CRAP THE GUARDIANS ARE ON US... I THOUGHT WE WERE BIGGER!

As for weaponry, storm guardians... My little pet. 3 templates and a wave serpent... 'nuff said. can you say doomseer on bike?

Guardian defenders. EML?warlock+spear/destructor. HIGHLY flexible. I could also put them in a wave serpent, very tank busty, and about the cost of 8 dragons + kit but doesn't actually take up an elites slot. basicaly a 20 man squad of anything with a BIG gun (bright lance or star cannon) will scare your oponent into hitting them with everything they got, stick em in cover and they're surviving a good few of those shots.

Jetbikes... VERY NICE! Have yet to use them as they're on the paintin table but it should go good.

Orbital
29-01-2008, 23:33
Sometimes folks make the mistake of trying to say that a certain unit is or isn't worth taking merely from the way its statline read, but that's only part of the picture. The way that people play, their personal style, how they think, how they strategize, what their comfort zone is... these are things that make a big difference in whether or not a unit works for you. One player is going to swear by Wraithlords, and another will say they're not worth the points. One might swear by Fire Dragons, and another might say you're better with Harlequins. As far as Guardians go... theory can only get you so far. Though it's a great idea to get lots of differing perspectives, you gotta get those Guardians out on the table and see what happens. That'll make everything way clearer for you than anything you'll be able to read here.