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Stonerkid655321
26-01-2008, 22:22
This is a list of what I would like done to guard. And no, I dont play guard I only beat them.


Basic guardsmen droped to four points a model.

Point costs for heavy weapons more in line with marines, ie cheaper heavy bolter but expensive lascannon. I dont think they should made cheaper thow. It should be inforced that for cheap heavy weapons you take heavy weapon squads. Thus guardsmen are used for there mass lasgun fire rather than 10 wound heavy weapons.

Give Psychers options of powers but cost more points, so they can actually be given a role and influence the game rather than just be really cheap and get a random rubbish power.

Get rid of IC Commissars, or say that they cant join concript units.

Chimeras slightly cheaper, or be given a cool specal rule, like a ork style bail out rule. Or maby a rule that Armourd fist squads get to use the chimera radio when they are near it ie giveing them the officer Ld the following turn they disembark for the transport, meaning they would be used for moveing forward and taking and holding objectives.

Grenade launchers better or cheaper!

Orgyoins cheaper or allow inclusion of a powerfist.

Concripts droped to 3 points.

Deep strikeing units as only a option for stormtroopers. And stormtroopers being 6 points a model, 8 with deep strike.

Everyone takes full order drill so just make it a IG rule, but inforce that they must be in rows to do it. Maby lose the extra I but keep the extra Ld and make it clumative with the officer bonus meaning guard in formation under officer Ld are very sturdy but without this they are very fragile.

Maby raise Ld of officers, or just leave them as they are but include the rule above.

Make mortars better. Maby a -2 for the pinning test.

xibo
26-01-2008, 22:46
I don't take close order drill, at least not in friendly games.

And grenade launchers even for free are still worse then +10P plasguns unless there is an extreme lack of power armours and wannabe-armoured companies ( wanna be as in marines who take two 5 man marine squads in razorbacks, a small master and fill the rest with vehicles ).

Storm troopers on all seriousness are worth MORE then 6 points, especially when dip striking.

Powerfists are rare artifact that not every triad brute wields around, so if there's a powerfist availible the guy responsible for wargear distribution will give it only to his best men only which are surely NOT ogrin boneheads. Give them especially unsharp and chunky clubs instead which grant armour to 4+ reduction...

IG's Ld is already 10 rerollable around the captain, and 9 everywhere else if the command chain is still availible... or you bought vox casters. There's no need to increase it.

Mortars don't need -2 pinning, rending, strength 10 ignore cover or whatever else the GW marketing might think out. What mortars need are a cute little special rule that makes them SUPPORT the guard army, like smoke shells or something alike. That, or a HUGE point drop.

Chimeras need point decrease, boil out is secondary as in the coming rules revision your Ld9+ guardsmen inside the chimera will simply do a pinning check instead of being automatically stuck when the vehicle goes bai.

... Am I the only one actually missing lasguns in the armoury section?

Hicks
26-01-2008, 22:47
If the next codex even has half of those proposed changes I'll be very happy. I'd also like to see some way for guards to mitigate the fact that your own units block line of sight in 5th ed.

Stonerkid655321
26-01-2008, 22:59
If the next codex even has half of those proposed changes I'll be very happy. I'd also like to see some way for guards to mitigate the fact that your own units block line of sight in 5th ed.

So we have gone from:

All models block los.

Only enemy models block los.

No models block los.

Only friendly models block los.



Powerfists are rare artifact that not every triad brute wields around, so if there's a powerfist availible the guy responsible for wargear distribution will give it only to his best men only which are surely NOT ogrin boneheads. Give them especially unsharp and chunky clubs instead which grant armour to 4+ reduction...

Or just leve them the same but give them a cheaper cost. I like the idea of nothing in the IQ army be particulary deadly, yet there is bloody loads of it.

jasdc1
26-01-2008, 23:39
How abou an armory that has all available gear and costs and a reference sheet that has all the gear stats. New to guard and I hate the way the Codex is now. Is a melta bomb the same as a demo charge? and where are pfists in the damn book?

xibo
26-01-2008, 23:43
How abou an armory that has all available gear and costs and a reference sheet that has all the gear stats. New to guard and I hate the way the Codex is now. Is a melta bomb the same as a demo charge? and where are pfists in the damn book?

Melta Bomb = see rulebook
Power Fist = see rulebook
Demo Charge = see IG Codex armoury

zoodog
26-01-2008, 23:50
As to dropping the points on guard, 4 points is not likely, 5 might be ok. The thing is that guard get so many scoring units in their organizational tree that it gets to the point a horde IG army makes it so GWs beloved elite armies simply don't have the ability to dent the army. Thus I think its better to add a bit of value to current guardsmen rather then reduce the price (anyway I think that there are plenty to assemble and paint at the moment)

instead of cheaper grenade launchers how bought more expensive plasma seems more likely (though I could see the GL being standard equipment to all guard squads that you replace with another weapon

I agree the chimera needs some improvements, like a reduction in cost or AV11 sides

frankly if any unit could justify the heavy CC weapon rule I think orgrens could, but it seems like its being phased out

Storm troupers are way better the 6pt a model

I fully expect that IG pychers will be considerably different in any new addition, and hopefully more useful

Aurynator
26-01-2008, 23:51
Get rid of IC Commissars, or say that they cant join concript units.

I fail to see the point in this why they should be banned in conscript units..

all it does is give them a higher leadership. You cant use the commissar rule to kill one to auto pass leadership since there are no officers in the Conscript unit. So, all in all you have a unit thats rubbish, with lots of points in it, that dies easily but has a decent leadership.

Xenobane
27-01-2008, 00:01
Basic guardsmen droped to four points a model.

Concripts droped to 3 points.

And stormtroopers being 6 points a model



You wouldn't want to play a Guard army with those costs, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to paint it.

xibo
27-01-2008, 00:10
Conscripts should be BS3. They were never supposed to shoot same the fine as guardsmen, but in the end there's no way they could be worse marksmen then grecheeeen.
And Grenadier/ST or at least ST ( including DH and WH's STs) should have WS4... they're the elite of the universe, so they should be fighting considerably better then a mere guardsmen... and especially not worse then some *feral* PDF grunt...

I too see no point of removing independent commissars. I see a point of removing the upper limit of 5 to the advisors, though ( it's not like they would be any overpowered or so, a commi is worse then a marine who also has LD10 anyways... ).

The Emperor want's yours!
Donnate your horsies to the commissar of the rough riders!

rintinglen
27-01-2008, 02:50
for me the main change that needs to be made is in the chimera. It needs to cost about 50 points base, not 70. Or else, it needs to come standard with smoke launchers and extra armor and a free HB on the hull. Currently, it is not worth the points, not when basic weapons can blast the side armour.

JimmyP0567
27-01-2008, 03:25
'Ogryoins'

This discredits any opinions you had.

Coragus
27-01-2008, 03:47
I want to see the grenade launcher fire a krak grenade with an AP of 3 instead of 4. That single change would make me a happy Guard player.

AllisterCaine
27-01-2008, 04:13
obviously you havnt thought this through, i dont know about you, but i do NOT want to paint 300 guardsmen in a 1500 pts army.

a 6pt guardsmen is fair enough, not fair but its not that bad, 5pt is more reasonable or just simply maing them better.

pwrgmrguard
27-01-2008, 04:50
No. All wrong. Mostly.

Ogryns must be better yes, but not through powerfists.

Your idea on close order drill is so obtuse i can't believe what i read. "I want a curved line to hold a corner, but as i am not in straight rows i lose my bonus. Oh dear."

Throwing a heavy bolter in a squad and calling it a cheap ten man heavy weapon is ridiculous. It's still forty plus points with your reduction, it's 70 now. 5-10 points is a cheap heavy weapon.

The only reason you single out the fifty man tarpit is you lose to it. TIP : use blast ordnance or template weapons and they go away quickly. It's a perfectly fluffy unit and by no means overpowered. It costs 250+points. Thats a land raider that can cause the entire unit to turn tail and run.

You got grenade launchers right.

Storm troopers are good as they are now. I don't think they need to be changed at all. Granted I use veterans and ratlings instead.

Deepstriking is a litle iffy, but it should not be restricted to Stormtroopers. Veterans atleast should have it as well, special weapon squads too.


Most of my beliefs are centered around tanks, and how the IG needs to have a tank cheaper than the russ but better for it's points than the chimera. And how most IG vehicles are way over costed with the Hellhound and Basilisk being my two exceptions to that belief. A predator in essence but with BS 3. And how tanks in general are way underpowered right now. (I play mixed, all infantry, DS and Armored Company Guard.)

northoceanbeach
27-01-2008, 05:02
Well, I agree with the poster that stormtroopers should be 6 points, I think them and Chimeras are about the two biggest pieces of **** in the game. Ten stromtroopers with 2 plasma mounted in a chimera with heave bolter and multi laser should cost 120 points. now it's like, what, 210? How much is a squad of truck boys, tearing into you on turn two? Yeah, think about it.

I heard this idea, so I can''t take credit for it, but it's good. Said that lasguns should actually be a gun so why not make a special rule for them, don't forget this game used to have special rules and we managed to remember them. Something like always shoot 1 at 24", 2 at 18" and 3 at 12" whether yomove or not. The way they are now, I'd stick one model out in front of 100 lasguns and expect to live.

The Gothic Me
27-01-2008, 05:16
I personally think that storm troopers should be left as is but just scrap the one off hellgun and give them bolters, it wouldn't unbalance them, and every other Imperial unit that can be considered vaguely 'elite' has them.

Basic guardsmen are harder to balance, because they are horribly over costed for what they do, but dropping their points means you can just take way to many. At any rate, cheaper heavy weapons makes sense.

Stella Cadente
27-01-2008, 05:17
I'd rather have my Guard kept at 60pts for 10, but give us a Free vox-caster, may as well
reduce all heavy weapons costs by 5pts
keep plasma and melta as is
flamer at 5pts
Grenade launcher, dunno, maybe 5pts as well
Veteran SGT for 5pts (or perhaps include him in the 60pts, like DA's and BA's have done)

Draconian77
27-01-2008, 05:29
Basic guardsmen droped to four points a model.

That change would A) Make building a guard army expensive/arduous and B) make troops like Spinegaunts look overpriced. I mean its gun is better than a guardsman(granted) but it doesn't get to shoot until turn 2-3, can't rapid fire, has no heavy weapon options and needs to stay within synapse range.

Just my 2 cents.

Baltar
27-01-2008, 05:31
all it does is give them a higher leadership. You cant use the commissar rule to kill one to auto pass leadership since there are no officers in the Conscript unit. So, all in all you have a unit thats rubbish, with lots of points in it, that dies easily but has a decent leadership.

FTR, you are wrong here. The Commissar would kill a conscript to "auto pass" the leadership test.

I believe it says so in the Imperial Guard FAQ


That change would A) Make building a guard army expensive/arduous

Pardon me if I don't really care. Balance is balance.

Stella Cadente
27-01-2008, 05:33
FTR, you are wrong here. The Commissar would kill a conscript to "auto pass" the leadership test.

I believe it says so in the Imperial Guard FAQ
you are correct, it does say so in the FAQ, it basically makes 50 conscripts and a commie better than fearless

Varath- Lord Impaler
27-01-2008, 05:34
you are correct, it does say so in the FAQ, it basically makes 50 conscripts and a commie better than fearless

better than? each Ld test failed is a dead Conscript.

Stella Cadente
27-01-2008, 05:36
better than? each Ld test failed is a dead Conscript.
oh no, a dead conscript, come on who really cares, theres 50 of em

sabreu
27-01-2008, 05:39
My bet:

Basic guardsman is going to get better, but not a price drop. If they made the basic trooper cheaper, guess what will have to get more expensive? That's right, the elites! I'm sure no one wants to pay 15 points for a veteran, now do they? That's the treatment the Orks got and that's what everyone is clamoring for when they say "Give me 4-5 point guardsmen".

No, I think they will get a nifty army wide special rule (perhaps Close Order Drill, Iron will, something along those lines) and army list overhaul to compensate for any perceived disparity.

Varath- Lord Impaler
27-01-2008, 05:48
oh no, a dead conscript, come on who really cares, theres 50 of em

And why is this better than fearless?

If your going to say outnumbering, cmon. Who cares, theres 50 of them, they wont be outnumbered

Stella Cadente
27-01-2008, 05:54
And why is this better than fearless?

If your going to say outnumbering, cmon. Who cares, theres 50 of them, they wont be outnumbered
they can be, what if your enemy takes 100 conscripts:D

Baltar
27-01-2008, 05:56
Basic guardsman is going to get better, but not a price drop.

They can't make them better without changing their stats, and they aren't going to do that. They also can't make them better without loading them down with useless gear that should be optional.


If they made the basic trooper cheaper, guess what will have to get more expensive?

Nothing. Guard is underpowered as is. Elites would probably DROP in price to be brought more in line with the value of the Guardsman. The option for Universal army deep strike is probably what will go away.



No, I think they will get a nifty army wide special rule (perhaps Close Order Drill, Iron will, something along those lines) and army list overhaul to compensate for any perceived disparity.

What is the point in having an "army wide special rule"? First of all, that IS NOT the way army design under Jervis has been heading. And second of all it limits choice. Some people want CHEAP ASS Guardsmen as cannon fodder, some want uber Space Marinish Guardsmen. Those who want a mob Guard should be able to have what they want.

It doesn't make sense to all the sudden say EVERY Guardsman has Iron Discipline. What is the point? You cant have Guardsmen who aren't Iron willed now? How are you going to distinguish Guardsmen who AREN'T particularly Iron Willed from Guardsmen who are SUPER iron willed?

pwrgmrguard
27-01-2008, 06:13
They can't make them better without changing their stats, and they aren't going to do that. They also can't make them better without loading them down with useless gear that should be optional.


And there you are wrong. Give them options, drop their points, include crap like grenades and sargeants for free. Grenades are far from useless, and if i had a free voxcaster in every unit then damn i would be a happy camper in an infantry based guard army. Get and HSO with commissar and master vox, and Voila, LD 10 guardsquads every where. tell me that's either useless or doesn't make them better, and i will suggest you have your head examined.

Baltar
27-01-2008, 06:16
Give them options, drop their points, include crap like grenades and sargeants for free.

You don't give people upgrades for free. It doesn't make sense. I don't want to pay extra for Frag Grenades that I am not gonna use, just so some dude doesn't have to buy a bunch more Guardsmen.


Get and HSO with commissar and master vox, and Voila, LD 10 guardsquads every where. tell me that's either useless or doesn't make them better, and i will suggest you have your head examined.

Im not saying its useless - I am saying that those who don't wish to pay for it shouldn't have to.

If you give them for free, then it limits those who want to take cheap hordey Guardsmen. There is nothing wrong with having Guardsmen be base 4 or 5 and having the option to buy Master Vox and Commissars to with that.

Varath- Lord Impaler
27-01-2008, 06:19
they can be, what if your enemy takes 100 conscripts

Then my guard army will LOVE them (5 Ordinance templates a turn+2 Demo charges and many many flamers)

Stella Cadente
27-01-2008, 06:19
You don't give people upgrades for free. It doesn't make sense. I don't want to pay extra for Frag Grenades that I am not gonna use, just so some dude doesn't have to buy a bunch more Guardsmen.
how are you paying extra if they ARE free?, look at the way Chaos and DA and BA have gone, they have tons of free stuff, are you paying for any of it?, no

Baltar
27-01-2008, 06:19
Then my guard army will LOVE them (5 Ordinance templates a turn+2 Demo charges and many many flamers)

And you spend all that firepower to kill a measly hundred or so points.

Baltar
27-01-2008, 06:20
how are you paying extra if they ARE free?, look at the way Chaos and DA and BA have gone, they have tons of free stuff, are you paying for any of it?, no

Yes, but these people are saying that I should be forced to pay more for Guardsmen than they are worth (6 points) and that should be justified by a useless upgrade like Frag grenades.

In the end I am paying for it because I don't WANT frag grenades, and Guardsmen should only be 4 or 5 pts.

pwrgmrguard
27-01-2008, 06:30
in a 1 vs many situation, the many win. Apparently, you are the one in this case. I get the feeling you think guard should be hordier than they are, when they are already the most numerous (modelwise) force in the game.

NO UPGRADE IS USELESS. just seldom used. I happen to think that free voxcasters would be an upgrade anyone would want for reason's i've already explained. Free nades too, as well as a free sergeant. IF you want cheap mindless models get conscripts. what you are looking for is already included in the amy list. I happen to like competant troopers.

Baltar
27-01-2008, 06:36
in a 1 vs many situation, the many win. Apparently, you are the one in this case. I get the feeling you think guard should be hordier than they are, when they are already the most numerous (modelwise) force in the game.

First of all, the person who is right is right regardless of how many people agree with him or disagree with him.

I don't feel that Guard needs to be a hordier army, I feel like we need to ::GASP:: get what we pay for. I don't feel that 6 pts. is the appropriate value for Guardsmen, and I don't want to be saddled with extra upgrades that I wouldn't choose to pay for.



NO UPGRADE IS USELESS. just seldom used. I happen to think that free voxcasters would be an upgrade anyone would want for reason's i've already explained.

Regardless of the relative value of various upgrades, I don't want to be FORCED to pay for them.


Free nades too, as well as a free sergeant.

It won't be that you get them for free, it will really mean that you are FORCED to pay for them.

And having free Veteran sergeants would basically permanently alter the Guard statline, and GW WILL NOT do that.


IF you want cheap mindless models get conscripts. what you are looking for is already included in the amy list. I happen to like competant troopers.

No, no, no, no, no. There is nothing wrong with having 4-5 point Guardsmen, and having to pay the same amount as now to get an upgrade.

So, you could have 6 pt Guardsmen with Frag Grenades if you wanted to, and I could have my 4 pt Guardsmen and spend the pts on other areas, like buying Tanks or advisors.

pwrgmrguard
27-01-2008, 06:43
I always seem to have enough point afford all the guardsmen and tanks i need. Dropping guardmans points means i have to spend another 100 or so dollars US to get my army back up to points and i do not have the funds to do that, now or in the immediate future.

I believe i understand what you are saying now, that the idea of stuff being compulsory is what throws you off.

I don't see how they can make standard guardsmen better without dropping points or changing stats or including compulsory equipment choices. I'll just have to buy those options to keep up points.

The best steps towards balanced guard has to made in the vehicle departments. Or the opton to have roughrider platoons.

Outlaw289
27-01-2008, 06:49
I agree with the sentiment Guard need cheaper options. Half priced Veteran sergeants, Commissars cheaper by 20 points, free vox casters, half-priced flamers/grenade launchers, -5 to all heavy weapons costs, 8 point Storm Troopers with better Hellguns, T5 Ogryns (or a special rule that needs S9 or better to cause instant death to them), Cheaper Chimeras with AV11 sides, etc

Baltar
27-01-2008, 06:50
It would bring a tear of joy to my eyes to see Commissars be cheap enough to actually be worth including. That would be a nice day indeed.

Ogryns as models and concepts I can live without, but you just never feel as Guard-y without Commissars.

Colonel Myrymma
27-01-2008, 06:59
First of all I want the Exterminator, griffon mortar tank and the tank hunting leman russ back as they all add options to the list(which is kinda rigid). The leman Russ Exterminator because it'll be nice to have a tank that goes dakka dakka instead of boom boom. The griffon mortar is just plain fun, come on a giant mortar on treads lol. And the tank hunting russ just for the amusment value of a sniping tank. While I'm on the whole shooty tank thing, let chimeras have autocannons, whole lot more fun that way.

Keep the doctrines, as they add tons of fluff and combat ability. DO NOT give ogryns powerfists as that is dumb and moot point "Duur me head itch *squish*"

Give the option of a commissar taking a damn horse so he can keep up with the cowboys. Also bring back hellguns/pistols to the armory because bolters are kinda reserved for the best of the Imperium I.E not Imperial guard slackys.

Maybe allow the veterans to take sniper rifles again?

Give the pathetic psykers better powers, cause they kinda suck.

Baltar
27-01-2008, 07:01
Maybe allow the veterans to take sniper rifles again?


That would be obscenely retarded.

Colonel Myrymma
27-01-2008, 07:03
sure it would be retarded to some one bent on winning tournaments and being the best in the store, but people who enjoy background stories and such would probably enjoy it.

Varath- Lord Impaler
27-01-2008, 07:11
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122236

Heres my list of stuff i want done.

Please leave comments people! The more stuff you can find wrong with my list, the better i can refine it!

Lord Cook
27-01-2008, 08:33
Get and HSO with commissar and master vox, and Voila, LD 10 guardsquads every where.

The +1Ld commissar bonus doesn't work down the vox link. Check the FAQ.

And I can't remember who suggested it, but replacing all storm trooper hellguns with bolters is the most boring solution in the history of dull and unimaginative ideas.

xibo
27-01-2008, 09:59
I always seem to have enough point afford all the guardsmen and tanks i need...
And exactly this is what is wrong: the tanks you NEED, because infantry is too crappy for what you pay. Free Vet is nice and all, but IG is a shooting army so a model with 1 more attack but no more shots in each squad isn't going to make them alot stronger. Frag grenades won't make them alot stronger either, as you rarely charge something with guardsmen. Automatic Ironic Discipline is fluffless, automatic closeorder drill even more.
The only real way to increase guardsmen value would be by
a) improving the lasgun with option to equip with 1p/model cheaper autoguns for horde army. lasguns either get targetters (+1BS) or 30" range
b) crazy fanatism that reflects in basic guardsmen squads being able to perform acts of faith ( pointless imo, but meh, 5+ invul saves wouldn't be that powerfull on a T3 model and ap1 lasguns still have only strength 3 )


And I can't remember who suggested it, but replacing all storm trooper hellguns with bolters is the most boring solution in the history of dull and unimaginative ideas.
Well if the hellguns gain 1 in strength while keeping their rapid fire type, everyone will call them IG boltguns, just like we say "necron boltguns","kroot boltguns" (it's not that AP5 ignores anything in 90% of the games),...

Lord Cook
27-01-2008, 10:04
But most people don't want +1S for the hellgun, judging by the typical responses in the endless hellgun debates. Mostly people are asking for it to become an Assault type weapon, and possibly with less range (like 12 or 18") and 3 shots. That or AP4.

But at the end of the day, there are tons of people complaining that 40k is being 'dumbed down' and that all armies are becoming the same, so why on earth would you want the hellgun to just be a carbon copy of the boltgun in all but name? It's boring, and it insults our intelligence to suggest we can't handle a different stat line occasionally.

I like the idea of the lasgun with 30" range. It reflects the fact that it's a rifle-type weapon like the pulse rifle, as opposed to the far more assault orientated boltguns or shuriken weapons of other races. Free vox casters would be useful and fluffy, but faith? Leave that to the Ecclesiarchy. Or only use it in conjunction with priests.

geraint
27-01-2008, 10:07
from what ive read u all say grenade launchers are crap , im startin a guard army and was wondering is this true , cos i was intending on filling my command squads with them .

Lord Cook
27-01-2008, 10:13
Grenade launchers are called crap because plasma guns (as it stands) are nearly always a better option because for slightly more points you get much better capabilities versus power armoured enemies, which are our most common opponent. G.launchers are probably slightly overcosted as well. However, they are certainly very useful if you want to be mobile and moving about constantly, and the changes to blast weapons in the next edition will make frag rounds useful against very lightly armoured swarms, such as hormagaunts.

Take a mix of both plasma guns and grenade launchers and you won't go far wrong.

xibo
27-01-2008, 10:20
I don't want strength 4 hellguns ( i wouldn't cry if they would get it though ), I grabbed that in some of the other IG discussions that happened lately.
IMO the
- hellgun needs a reroll to wound, representing the needle that impacts the already-lasgunned spot.
- And night vision goggles for storm troopers. Come on.
- STs to eight points, eventually by making krak grenades an option instead of an automatical goody.
- Free infiltration to make them compete a bit better with the cheaper veterans ( in the same way that warwalkers need to be cheap to be able to compete with other stuff eldar get into HS ), while dropping goes for +1P/model as is ( together with drop troops doctrine where it should also be +1P/model )
- Veteran seargent option to take hellgun instead of hellpistol and ccw, and Veteran Veteran, officers, commissars, psykers, techpriests and priests option to take lasgun instead of laspistol and ccw
- Hellgun goes to 18" str3 assault 2 OR ( like the psycannon OR ) 12" str3 assault 3.
- STs and Vets option to swap hell-/las- guns against DA-ammo loaded shotguns for free
- STs and Vets ability to take veteran skills

Corrupt
27-01-2008, 10:35
Rerolling wounds on the Hellgun could work. Combined with an assault status (and maybe Ws 4 for the troopers)

Agreed on manstopper shotgun shells for the veterans and stormtroopers (and squad sgt's)

Small boost (eg built in sharpshooters and iron discipline) for regular troopers
It would allow for

Conscripts-Hold a line when carefully watched, mob the enemy, cheap numbers.

Regulars-Hold a line or act independantly as long as there is still some support (ie 7+ men with specials and heavies left up to platoon strength) and have some chance of success, match for most foes (little nids, orks etc) as long as they arnt assaulted or caught in the open

Veterans and Glory Boys-Rivals for "ardest" troops in the Emperors Guard armies. Capable of holding their own against all bar the best enemy troops either by being grizzled and veterany (maybe give them built in camleoline that gives a 6+ in the open representing born survivors) or by having much better kit and training (carapace and hellguns)

When faced with marines these guys actually stand a hope in hell of killing some (Ie not being wiped totally without armour support like guardsmen, but having a veteran squad or two being capable of soloing a 5 man combat squad with a little luck)

Shadowphrakt
27-01-2008, 11:09
I actually really like the Guard Codex as it is. I would say give the guardsmen a laspistol ans lasgun as standard. Like the modern day army. Sidearms all the way!

Also, maybe drop the points of a leman russ. In a game i played yesterday, i used a leman russ and only got 53 models in 800 points. I outnumbered my oponent by 10 models. Thoughleman russes are very good at taking out large amounts of chaos marines with one shot, then making the rest **** themselves and run away.

Though i am quite happy with the guard codex the way it is.

Bunnahabhain
27-01-2008, 13:05
Most of the major points have been covered...

Keep doctrines, but re-work lots of them, to appropriate costs, and make some more flexible- eg warrior weapons FREE, may ( not must) replace lasgun with CCW and pistol

Sentinals. Price drop, allow squadrons to operate independantly, to prevent heavy bolters killing the whole squadron, closed top upgrade very cheap, so worth taking.

End to universal free deep strike. Should be a costed doctrine

Veterans infiltraite, Stormies Deep strike. helps define roles better.

Option to replace heavy weapon with 2nd special- doctrine

Armoured company in the book, along with increased range of tanks.

Increase availaibilty of demo charges- low skill weapon for conscriptsa, or useful one for veterans...


Most importantly of all:

DO NOT do anything until 5th Ed is out, and the meta game has shaked itself out. No point in getting the Guard codex balanced for 4th ed, when it becomes outdated in 3 months....

Angelus Mortis
27-01-2008, 13:35
Conscripts should be BS3. They were never supposed to shoot same the fine as guardsmen, but in the end there's no way they could be worse marksmen then grecheeeen.


Maybe in this case the problem isnt the Conscripts, maybe the Gretchen should be BS1?

Lord Cook
27-01-2008, 15:39
- hellgun needs a reroll to wound, representing the needle that impacts the already-lasgunned spot.
- And night vision goggles for storm troopers. Come on.
- STs to eight points, eventually by making krak grenades an option instead of an automatical goody.
- Free infiltration to make them compete a bit better with the cheaper veterans ( in the same way that warwalkers need to be cheap to be able to compete with other stuff eldar get into HS ), while dropping goes for +1P/model as is ( together with drop troops doctrine where it should also be +1P/model )
- Veteran seargent option to take hellgun instead of hellpistol and ccw, and Veteran Veteran, officers, commissars, psykers, techpriests and priests option to take lasgun instead of laspistol and ccw
- Hellgun goes to 18" str3 assault 2 OR ( like the psycannon OR ) 12" str3 assault 3.
- STs and Vets option to swap hell-/las- guns against DA-ammo loaded shotguns for free
- STs and Vets ability to take veteran skills

I like these ideas, particularly the re-roll to wound for hellguns. Night vision would be cool, be if we got it, shouldn't the marines have it as standard? It's just a shame veteran skills are being phased out.


DO NOT do anything until 5th Ed is out, and the meta game has shaked itself out. No point in getting the Guard codex balanced for 4th ed, when it becomes outdated in 3 months....

Or at the very least build the new codex with 5th in mind. I don't care if it's a pile of crap when used in 4th, but so long as it works when 5th comes around, I'm happy.

Ekranoplan
27-01-2008, 16:06
I think there needs to be a more of a distinction between the roles of Storm Troopers and Hardened Veterans. Everyone I know thinks Hardened Veterans are better then storm troopers because of the extra special weapon and cheaper cost.

-Stormtroopers should have the hellgun made to an assault weapon and be given 3 special weapon slots, and have deep strike standard.

-Veterans should have stealth and move threw cover standard. They should be reduced to BS3 but have sharpshooters, and have access to some type of veteran skills and demo charges. One can still get BS4 veterans by using the Last Chancers.

-the heavy weapon platoon should be removed, and just allow 0-2 heavy weapon squads to be attatched to a troops platoon.

-One should beable to upgrade a guard with carapace armor on a platoon by platoon basis. Same thing goes with the other equipment doctrines like cameo cloaks, chem inhalers, and so forth.

xibo
27-01-2008, 16:23
-Stormtroopers should have the hellgun made to an assault weapon and be given 3 special weapon slots, and have deep strike standard.
while making ST more powerfull with a third special weapon they thereby become even more like veterans...


-Veterans should have stealth and move threw cover standard. They should be reduced to BS3 but have sharpshooters, and have access to some type of veteran skills and demo charges. One can still get BS4 veterans by using the Last Chancers.
nope. if a regiment already has sharpshooters and light infantry vets are no better other then having more special weapons? And the last chancers thing is especially squishy...
... I mean just because your major/general/admiral or whatever is a genius you don't use solar macharius or usuka creed rules for him, right?



-the heavy weapon platoon should be removed, and just allow 0-2 heavy weapon squads to be attatched to a troops platoon.

actually i'd rather say add 0-1 HEAVY weapon squads option for each 2 infantry squads in a infantry platoon and keep the heavy support platoon which IMO should also be able to field special weapon squads.


-One should beable to upgrade a guard with carapace armor on a platoon by platoon basis. Same thing goes with the other equipment doctrines like cameo cloaks, chem inhalers, and so forth.
seconded.

catbarf
27-01-2008, 17:48
My list:

-Reduce prices on all Advisors, right now they're all fairly useless for the price.
-Make the psychic powers worth something.
-Make shotguns S4, to give a little more incentive to their use- besides, BA and DA get them.
-Remove doctrines, integrate them into the list, add flexibility. Perhaps an upgrade to give line squads LP+CCW or shotties like the Renegade Militia.
-Drop Guardsmen to 5pts/ea. Leave Veterans the same, it will balance them out.
-Drop price on Stormies, make Hellgun Assault 3 18".
-Make Ogryns useful. Lower cost, an extra point of WS- keeps them fragile troops but more killy in melee, whereas right now they usually tie Tactical Marines in assault.
-Artillery barrages as HS.
-Make the Grenade Launcher and Flamer useful. Perhaps make them free for any 10-man squad.

And lastly, do NOT balance the army as a whole. BALANCE IT BY UNIT. When you balance an army as a whole, it makes some fluffy armies useless and min-maxing becomes easy. An example: If Guardsmen were kept at 6pts but special/heavy weapons dropped in price, a 10-man squad with HB and Plas might still be balanced. However, if I want a squad with no upgrades to swarm the enemy, I get screwed because I'm still paying the penalty but without the benefits. Or, on the other hand, I could maximize the amount of heavy and special weapons in the army and take minimum numbers of bodies. That way I get the benefits but not the penalties. So please, make points value an accurate representation of that model in a vacuum, and not in relation to the rest of the book.

Shadowphrakt
27-01-2008, 18:11
My list:
-Make shotguns S4, to give a little more incentive to their use- besides, BA and DA get them.


No. Only DA get the S4 shotgun. BA are still S3 shotgun. Because THE DA USE DIFFERENT AMMUNITION!!! PLease, please, please everyone! Only DA use S4 shotguns because they use different ammo not used by any other army! BA get S3 shotguns, so everone else should. simple as that. Deal with it. Just Fething deal with it. Dont be little b*tches and whine.

Stonerkid655321
27-01-2008, 18:20
The only reason you single out the fifty man tarpit is you lose to it.

I do not lose to guard.

The problem with hellguns is that they are Strength 3 in inquisitor books. Unless they make GUARD Stormies have special amuntion or rules.

xibo
27-01-2008, 18:21
Blaaah! Shotguns hit so disgustingly hard that it literally tears armour appart! they need rending for us! >.<"

Bloodknight
27-01-2008, 18:21
I don't know which BA codex you read, but my copy says S4 for shotguns. The manstopper thingy in the DA codex is just fluff.

ChrisAsmadi
27-01-2008, 18:54
I want to see atleast some form of an Armoured Company in the main list.

Because I want to play guard, but I don't want to end up painting a huge pile of infantry, but I do like the tanks.

Stonerkid655321
27-01-2008, 18:55
That would be obscenely retarded.

Unless you gave them hellfire amunition. 4's to wound re-rolled vs anything.

Stonerkid655321
27-01-2008, 18:57
I want to see atleast some form of an Armoured Company in the main list.

Because I want to play guard, but I don't want to end up painting a huge pile of infantry, but I do like the tanks.


Is could not be fully legal. It would destroy game balance. How could you ever make an army that could deal with both a army of leman russ's AND however many hundred orks.

ChrisAsmadi
27-01-2008, 18:58
Is could not be fully legal. It would destroy game balance. How could you ever make an army that could deal with both a army of leman russ's AND however many hundred orks.

To quote myself in another thread:


I would hope that it ends up as something like this:

HQ - Mechanized HQ Squad, Command Salamander, maybe a command Russ?
Elites - Specialized Russ Variants(Conqueror, Exterminator, 0-1 Laser Destroyer)
Troops - Armoured Fist Squads.
Fast Attack - Sentinels, Scout Salamanders, Hellhounds
Heavy Support - Bassie, Russes(Normal, Demolisher, 0-1 Vanquisher, 0-1 Executioner).

Or even make the Vanquisher/Executioner command tank only (wouldn't make sense for the Laser Destroyer).

An army like that wouldn't be overpowered, methinks.

Bunnahabhain
27-01-2008, 18:58
Is could not be fully legal. It would destroy game balance. How could you ever make an army that could deal with both a army of leman russ's AND however many hundred orks.


Lots and lots of Assualt cannons.....

Stonerkid655321
27-01-2008, 18:59
It would bring a tear of joy to my eyes to see Commissars be cheap enough to actually be worth including. That would be a nice day indeed.

Ogryns as models and concepts I can live without, but you just never feel as Guard-y without Commissars.

Very true. Keep em the same but make cost only 15-20 points.

Stonerkid655321
27-01-2008, 19:00
Lots and lots of Assualt cannons.....

Then the game turns into paper scissior stone.

catbarf
27-01-2008, 19:01
No. Only DA get the S4 shotgun. BA are still S3 shotgun. Because THE DA USE DIFFERENT AMMUNITION!!! PLease, please, please everyone! Only DA use S4 shotguns because they use different ammo not used by any other army! BA get S3 shotguns, so everone else should. simple as that. Deal with it. Just Fething deal with it. Dont be little b*tches and whine.

My copy says S4. Not to mention, is it really so difficult to assume that they might have the same ammunition? After all, the man-stopper rounds are even used by lower-hive gangs in Necromunda, having them available to the army isn't a stretch at all.

Right now, the only benefit of a shotgun over a lasgun is that you can shoot and assault in the same turn. Not much of a benefit, seeing as the only real platform (Veterans) are far better at shooting than melee. The drawback is rather steep- no shooting out to 24".

xibo
27-01-2008, 19:03
Then the game turns into paper scissior stone.

paper scissors stones ... and assault cannons to rule them all

sabreu
27-01-2008, 19:05
They can't make them better without changing their stats, and they aren't going to do that. They also can't make them better without loading them down with useless gear that should be optional.

They don't need to change their stats. That's pretty narrow minded thinking. They can do, oh let's say, lower the points of all their special weapons, give them Close Order Drill for free, lower the points on their transports or incorporate Advisors per platoon.




Guard is underpowered as is. Elites would probably DROP in price to be brought more in line with the value of the Guardsman. The option for Universal army deep strike is probably what will go away.

So were the Orks. Our old elites were just troop choices with a gimmick. They changed that AND made them more expensive. So I don't see how Guardsman being underpowered makes them safe from similar treatment in the future.



What is the point in having an "army wide special rule"? First of all, that IS NOT the way army design under Jervis has been heading. And second of all it limits choice. Some people want CHEAP ASS Guardsmen as cannon fodder, some want uber Space Marinish Guardsmen. Those who want a mob Guard should be able to have what they want.

What's the point in the Orks having Furious Charge, or Chaos having marks? these are 'Army wide special rules' in case you havn't noticed and this is how army design under Jervis is heading. Whether it limits choice isn't a concern; Everyone is losing their armouries, so I don't see what your second point has to do with any thing. And lastly, at the current time Guard can still outnumber orks so what's your point with that?


It doesn't make sense to all the sudden say EVERY Guardsman has Iron Discipline. What is the point? You cant have Guardsmen who aren't Iron willed now? How are you going to distinguish Guardsmen who AREN'T particularly Iron Willed from Guardsmen who are SUPER iron willed?

True enough with Iron Discipline, but what about Close Order Drill? It's something all regiments could share and wouldn't break fluff. Seriously, think outside the box and realize an update won't be just a points tweak and pushed out. They are going to rewrite key units and change how it plays. They have done it with Eldar, Chaos, and Orks. Guardsman aren't some magic exception.

Angelus Mortis
27-01-2008, 19:08
I would like to see vehicles in Platoons. Say buy a Leman Russ and you can add up to 2 more to the Platoon but they have to maintain 4" coherency like Infantry,fire at the same target, etc. That way if you want to go armor heavy, you can actually make it look like an armor/mech company. Instead of 2 Russes and 1 Basilisk, you could come off with 6 Russes and 3 Basilisks. Granted, expensive points wise, but still allowing for making an actual Mech/Armored Company. At least have it as an optional doctrine.

Codsticker
27-01-2008, 19:09
Chimeras slightly cheaper...
Good idea.


Orgyoins cheaper or allow inclusion of a powerfist. I was thinking that they could have heavy Close Combat Weapons.



And stormtroopers being 6 points a , 8 with deep strike.
Yes, Stormtroopers are a little over priced at moment.

I would like to see vehicles in Platoons.
Since Leman Russ Demolishers are intended as an infantry support tank, I think that moving them to Troops and having them restricted in the same way as Armoured Fist (ie. 1 Per Infantry Platoon) would work well, effectively opening up options in Heavy Support.

Baltar
27-01-2008, 19:12
I like the idea of letting Hellguns re-roll their wounds.

Baltar
27-01-2008, 19:23
They don't need to change their stats. That's pretty narrow minded thinking.

The statline of Imperial Guardsmen has been the same for more than 15 years.


They can do, oh let's say, lower the points of all their special weapons, give them Close Order Drill for free, lower the points on their transports or incorporate Advisors per platoon.

Yes they could, but that neither changes the IG statline, nor stops the Guardsmen themselves from being still worth 4-5 pts. If MY Guardsmen are underpowered at 6 pts. with FREE COD, they are still going to be underpowered at 6 pts. with FREE COD.



So were the Orks. Our old elites were just troop choices with a gimmick. They changed that AND made them more expensive.

Yes, because they were trying to encourage Ork hordes. Guards has never been an explicitly hordey army - its always been about high quality on one end and low quality on the other.





What's the point in the Orks having Furious Charge, or Chaos having marks?

Those are ESSENTIAL elements that help DEFINE the character of those armies. Close Order Drill, for an army based on firepower and pseudo-modern warfare tactics, would just feel like a compulsory tacked on bonus just to justify Guardsmen remaining at 6 pts.


Whether it limits choice isn't a concern

Hopefully WHETHER IT MAKES SENSE does.

sabreu
27-01-2008, 19:38
This is turning into a fun debate. :D


The statline of Imperial Guardsmen has been the same for more than 15 years.

Ok, I think we can leave this issue alone, since I never advocated their statline to change and we both agree on the same issue. I think you just read my original post and extrapolated too much from it.



Yes they could, but that neither changes the IG statline, nor stops the Guardsmen themselves from being still worth 4-5 pts. If MY Guardsmen are underpowered at 6 pts. with FREE COD, they are still going to be underpowered at 6 pts. with FREE COD.

I see a regular infantry squad able to get a special weapon and a heavy, are cheap, and come in ten man squads. They may not be as good in close combat as Orks are, but that does not warrant them to have their points lowered. They have better gear, better weapons, and a better ballistic skill. They also have better leadership. So I have to ask, what exactly are you using to measure their cost effectiveness versus points? And if you seriously considered dropping a Guardsmen to 4-5 points you realize than you would be asking for 2-3 point concripts? That is not going to happen.



Yes, because they were trying to encourage Ork hordes. Guards has never been an explicitly hordey army - its always been about high quality on one end and low quality on the other.

So by that logic, they shouldn't get a points dcreased because their not supposed to be as much of a horde army as Orks are supposed. Your arguement is becoming counter-productive here.



Those are ESSENTIAL elements that help DEFINE the character of those armies. Close Order Drill, for an army based on firepower and pseudo-modern warfare tactics, would just feel like a compulsory tacked on bonus just to justify Guardsmen remaining at 6 pts.

Except, all armies know how to rally when they've ran out of ammunition and/or about to get their positin overrun.


Hopefully WHETHER IT MAKES SENSE does.

Heh. Does any update ever make sense until a few months have passed and everyone finally accepts new changes?

LordJose
27-01-2008, 19:38
this is what i want:

8-men Command Squads, no need to be veteran to be able to be medic, the guy who carries the banner should be veteran because the fluff, its a honor carrying a pole with a banner that makes you killed in battle. 5-men T3 S5+ are too much fragile, lets put more bodies in the bullets ways.

sniper teams as a 0-2 support squad in the HQ, a 6-man squad, you deploy them in 3 2-man teams, one with sniper rifle, one with lasgun, infiltrators (like the imperial armour 4 D-99 elite snipers but as a support squad)

HQ unit: smaller version of samaritan vehicle with small group of medics (more or less like the imperial armour 5 quartermaster guy) centaur carried medics with area effect, every squad in range counts as having a medic (re rolling cover saves allowed, not only armour saves) but with bigger range than the quarter master, remember you have to pay for a centaur AND the medics, it deserves a big area, if not nobody will pay for it if only 1 or 2 units could use it at the same time...

HQ unit: centaur carried engenseer (spelling?) with servitors or mechanics, working like previous unit, area effect like engenseer (spelling?) trying to repair vehicles (inmoblized, weapon damages and so on) and a extra special rula, and the end of the battle if the engenseer is still alive you can try to repair... X inmobilized vehicles (i dont know how many); today nobody uses engenseers because you have to pay a lot for them, he has to be base to base with damaged tank, and servitors are expensive wargear lol

psykers having an ability "count as" surveyor (as in dawn of war), having REAL powers (paying for them)
priests... removed from codex
comissars a little cheaper, able to be put in rough riders (with horse and so on :P )
ogryns need some help... i dont know what
ratlings... removed from codex, horrible minis, horrible idea (sniper hobbits in space? wth???)

improved hellgun

12 men squads for infantry squads and veteran squads, you pay more, but you need more deads to check leadership and in close combats you have more men in the fight, lasgun-combi-flamer, lasgun-combi-grenade-launcher for vet sargeants in infantry squads and veteran squads, medics as an option for infantry and veteran squads
free radios and free frag grenades, heavy stubbers as a special weapon, multilaser as a heavy weapon.
"2 special if no heavy weapon" doctrine

no "1 mechanized for 1 infantry platoon" restriction

chimeras cheaper or more side armour, GODS WHAT ABOUT CHEAPER PINTLE MOUNTED WEAPONS????? please please please clarification about: LOS of the chimeras laser rifles, what about eliminatig that rule of imperial guard shooting through the hatch = open topped vehicle??? are not chimeras already fragile???

rough riders as a bikers (horrible minis, atilan riders???? wth??)

1-2 jeeps as a fast attack unit (or centaurs or whatever fast light open topped vehicle) with that rule about using the infantry heavy weapon when the vehicle moves as in imperial armour 5 centaurs. paying a little more or something for deploying them uh... not together (i doesnt know how to say that in english) no vehicle squadron... every vehicle on his own

cheaper sentinels with the same ability of deploying the unit of sentinels... "not together" :), fleet of foot (the are supposed to be faster than infantry...)

basilisk clarification of rules about being able to shot directly if buying the indirect fire upgrade

only one leman russ entry in the codex with chassis + turret weapon + sponsons weapon + pintle mounted weapons + extras (extra side and back armour as in demolisher as an extra), being able to choose as a turret weapon for all this known leman russ turrets (vanquisher, exterminator, conqueror, executioner, annihilator, demolisher)

more expensive drop troopers doctrine, free warrior weapons doctrine, command squads and veterans being able to choose close order drill, more expensive close order drill doctrine, tau included in the xeno fighters doctrine

well this is what i will like to see in the new guard codex, as well as valkyries and vultures :D

Baltar
27-01-2008, 19:54
I see a regular infantry squad able to get a special weapon and a heavy, are cheap, and come in ten man squads. They may not be as good in close combat as Orks are, but that does not warrant them to have their points lowered. They have better gear, better weapons, and a better ballistic skill. They also have better leadership. So I have to ask, what exactly are you using to measure their cost effectiveness versus points?

IIRC, Mathhammer tends to show that in both shooting AND close combat, the equivalent number of points of IG ALWAYS gets beat by the equivalent number of Orks.




And if you seriously considered dropping a Guardsmen to 4-5 points you realize than you would be asking for 2-3 point concripts? That is not going to happen.

Then drop conscripts. We aren't going to balance the whole army just to include some unit that hardly anyone uses.

I don't feel that 2-3 pt Conscripts would be that bad. Remember, the new Guard army should be strong and as competitive as any other army. Don't think about what they CAN'T have.


So by that logic, they shouldn't get a points dcreased because their not supposed to be as much of a horde army as Orks are supposed. Your arguement is becoming counter-productive here.

No. The problem with the whole argument is that people see the idea of cheaper Guardsmen and automatically think "OMGZORZ! THEY JUST WANT TO BUY MORE GUARDSMEN!" when in fact, Wargear, tanks, special options are what we want.

Paying the right value for what you get is FAIR, regardless of how hordey or non-hordey it makes the army.

Lowering the cost of Guardsmen doesn't make it any more of a horde army, it opens the way for buying more stuff to augment the army that isn't Guardsmen.


Except, all armies know how to rally when they've ran out of ammunition and/or about to get their positin overrun.

They might be, but that doesn't mean that they stand in Napoleonic ranks and fight with bayonets.



Heh. Does any update ever make sense until a few months have passed and everyone finally accepts new changes?

Keep dreaming that those are the changes that are actually going to be made.

I don't know why people can't get on board with the changes.

xibo
27-01-2008, 19:58
I see a regular infantry squad able to get a special weapon and a heavy, are cheap, and come in ten man squads. They may not be as good in close combat as Orks are, but that does not warrant them to have their points lowered. They have better gear, better weapons, and a better ballistic skill. They also have better leadership. So I have to ask, what exactly are you using to measure their cost effectiveness versus points? And if you seriously considered dropping a Guardsmen to 4-5 points you realize than you would be asking for 2-3 point concripts? That is not going to happen.
IG has better gear and better weapons then WHO? the only weapon that could be considered worse then a lasgun is a shuriken crapapult and its NOT much worse either. and gear? gear?! guardsmen have 'And they shall know no gear' written all over them. yay, the crappiest gun and an armour that bears protection against 1% of incomming fire... you can rather call T3 protection then a mesh armour. And where does IG have good Ld? IG has an Ld of 7 through the lines, with this and that unit having Ld8. It's only the HQ platoons command squad captain who has Ld9 and for the purpose of spreading his leadership in a 12" radiused circle he's same expensive as the same SM commander that spreads his Ld of 10(!) in an infinite radiused {sphere}...

IG are a shooting army. Therefore IG cannot afford to have the worst for it's points shooting troop choice in the game ( again, eldar guardians are competing, but only for their short fire range )



So by that logic, they shouldn't get a points dcreased because their not supposed to be as much of a horde army as Orks are supposed. Your arguement is becoming counter-productive here.
he said ig is either quality or no quality at all, second which derives to horde.



Except, all armies know how to rally when they've ran out of ammunition and/or about to get their positin overrun.
due to the fact IG uses lasguns as basic weapons and lasgun batteries can be recharged by being in the soldiers trouser pocket IG is the last army of 40k that will run out of ammo. and when fighting for the emperor there is no doubt in success therefore "being overruned" does not happen, and thinking about it is heresy.




Heh. Does any update ever make sense until a few months have passed and everyone finally accepts new changes?
no :cool:

EDIT:

HQ unit: smaller version of samaritan vehicle with small group of medics (more or less like the imperial armour 5 quartermaster guy) centaur carried medics with area effect, every squad in range counts as having a medic (re rolling cover saves allowed, not only armour saves) but with bigger range than the quarter master, remember you have to pay for a centaur AND the medics, it deserves a big area, if not nobody will pay for it if only 1 or 2 units could use it at the same time...
That is a great idea. Definitely seconded.

EmperorEternalXIX
27-01-2008, 20:01
I see a lot of people saying advisors are useless.

My buddy uses a Commissar with a power fist, a Junior Officer with Honorifica Imperialis and a Power Fist, and a command squad of 4 melta guns. It gives him some powerful punch for the cost he pays for it. As a counter charge unit it does some damage...

xibo
27-01-2008, 20:06
I see a lot of people saying advisors are useless.

My buddy uses a Commissar with a power fist, a Junior Officer with Honorifica Imperialis and a Power Fist, and a command squad of 4 melta guns. It gives him some powerful punch for the cost he pays for it. As a counter charge unit it does some damage...
As a counter charge unit he should rather drop the 4 meltguns and replace with 4 veterans with LP&CCW + Medipack which would still be cheaper , and use a powersword on the officer who can be picked out as he will strike at least one turn no matter what due to the honorifica's initiative bump. :o

thomas2
27-01-2008, 20:16
I was thinking that they could have heavy Close Combat Weapons.
Problem is heavy close combat weapons are being phased out, presumably for 5th edition where there won't be any. I mean are there any left after choppas and chainaxes no longer being them?

sabreu
27-01-2008, 20:47
IIRC, Mathhammer tends to show that in both shooting AND close combat, the equivalent number of points of IG ALWAYS gets beat by the equivalent number of Orks.

Except mathhammer doesn't take into account the important variables, generally. Guardsmen have a greater range, and should in the average case be able to take enough Orks to even the odds out before they get into shooting range or combat.




Then drop conscripts. We aren't going to balance the whole army just to include some unit that hardly anyone uses.

Drop conscripts then.


I don't feel that 2-3 pt Conscripts would be that bad. Remember, the new Guard army should be strong and as competitive as any other army. Don't think about what they CAN'T have.

sure, what ever floats your boat. Making them cheaper won't make them a competitive army.


No. The problem with the whole argument is that people see the idea of cheaper Guardsmen and automatically think "OMGZORZ! THEY JUST WANT TO BUY MORE GUARDSMEN!" when in fact, Wargear, tanks, special options are what we want.

Or, why cant everyone who wants cheaper guardsman just ask for cheaper weapons, wargear, and tanks instead? Seriously, every single person here who suggests cheaper guardsmen base their arguements on Orks being 6 points. They have significant differences other than a statline you need to remember.


Paying the right value for what you get is FAIR, regardless of how hordey or non-hordey it makes the army.

Again, that's an issue with wargear, weapons, tanks, and other things that need to be addressed.


Lowering the cost of Guardsmen doesn't make it any more of a horde army, it opens the way for buying more stuff to augment the army that isn't Guardsmen.

Actually, it does. You realize per troop choice a guard army can get 5 squads? that's fifty troops per slot, and as is can get more troops than supposedly the horde armies! Making them cheaper will compound that issue even more.


They might be, but that doesn't mean that they stand in Napoleonic ranks and fight with bayonets.

:rolleyes: I'm not even going to comment on this one.



Keep dreaming that those are the changes that are actually going to be made.

I don't know why people can't get on board with the changes.

Unless your the guy currently rewriting the IG codex, telling me as a fact to keep dreaming, I am still entitled to postulate what may be in our future, as do you. Your attitude suggests you have no real interest in debating and just want to have everyone agree with your ideas, half-baked or good, with no complaint. Seriously dude, your the one who needs to keep dreaming if you think you can post your opinions and think the rest of us will simply, whole heartedly agree. Remember, that's the point of a forum - a place to disagree! :D


IG has better gear and better weapons then WHO? the only weapon that could be considered worse then a lasgun is a shuriken crapapult and its NOT much worse either. and gear? gear?! guardsmen have 'And they shall know no gear' written all over them. yay, the crappiest gun and an armour that bears protection against 1% of incomming fire... you can rather call T3 protection then a mesh armour. And where does IG have good Ld? IG has an Ld of 7 through the lines, with this and that unit having Ld8. It's only the HQ platoons command squad captain who has Ld9 and for the purpose of spreading his leadership in a 12" radiused circle he's same expensive as the same SM commander that spreads his Ld of 10(!) in an infinite radiused {sphere}...

1.) You forget doctrinal equipment. Flak is better than nothing. Better weapons = special and heavies. There are options, but most guard player tend to forget they exist.

2.) Vox-caster, Master Vox and Officer boost leadership considerably. If your not utilizing these gems to their full effect, that's not on the army list.


IG are a shooting army. Therefore IG cannot afford to have the worst for it's points shooting troop choice in the game ( again, eldar guardians are competing, but only for their short fire range )

...then change the costs of weapons and give them better weapon options. Seriously, making them cheaper to justify their shooting ability is just silly.



he said ig is either quality or no quality at all, second which derives to horde.

IG are versatility and adoptability. That should be represented by weapon options, wargear, different units. I.e. You should be able to make a mechanized list, or an army of barbaric warriors, or an artillery heavy army, or whatever.


due to the fact IG uses lasguns as basic weapons and lasgun batteries can be recharged by being in the soldiers trouser pocket IG is the last army of 40k that will run out of ammo. and when fighting for the emperor there is no doubt in success therefore "being overruned" does not happen, and thinking about it is heresy.

...So, all those scenarios where the IG get overrun I should overlook? Running out of ammunition isn't the only way you can get overrun. Remember, high casualties usually lead to the same thing.

xibo
27-01-2008, 21:21
1.) You forget doctrinal equipment. Flak is better than nothing. Better weapons = special and heavies. There are options, but most guard player tend to forget they exist.
Flak armour can be better then nothing but it's still not good enough to pay points for it, unless the armour is combined with other goodies such as was the old tau codex's kroot armour which had the side effect of boosting their leadership.
And with any common sence it doesn't make sence to have to pay point because you are able to take an option. it makes sence to have to pay points IF you take that option. E.G. say an autocannon makes a squad of ten guardsmen with lasguns who are actually worth about 45 points be worth about 70 then the autocannon should be +25 points and not paying 60 for 10 dummies which are overpriced unless you take a weapon option.


2.) Vox-caster, Master Vox and Officer boost leadership considerably. If your not utilizing these gems to their full effect, that's not on the army list.
Vox caster costs 5 points per squad and require the command platoon command squad MVC and captain to be both alive ( and iirc not in combat either ) but not in a transport, on the run or pinned in order to work, which is already +30 points for the captain upgrade, +25 points for the master vox and another +5 points for any squad that wants to make use of it... it's not that i want to pay 100+ points for a HQ and +5 points per squad in order to get a command squad that is in game terms worth 2~3 tactical marines ( and that only if there's a power sword at the captain ) and an army wide Ld of 9 while all the other armies have Ld10 through their aspiring champions, Rites which come on a character which is good enough for its price to be taken even without the rites, fearless, mob 'eads count, acts of faith, ...


...then change the costs of weapons and give them better weapon options. Seriously, making them cheaper to justify their shooting ability is just silly.

once again, i don't want to pay for the ABILITY to take options. I don't want guardsmen to become BS4/WS4/Str4/I4 either.



IG are versatility and adoptability. That should be represented by weapon options, wargear, different units. I.e. You should be able to make a mechanized list, or an army of barbaric warriors, or an artillery heavy army, or whatever.
precisely. the barbaric army of lowlife fodder doom has to have the same chances against an ballanced enemy by fielding only hordes of close combat oriented, shortrange armed ( read meltguns and flamers, although meltguns aren't feral ) cannon fodder as the sharpshooters-hardenedfighters-ID-SniperTeams-LightInfantry elite guard or the armoured company.




...So, all those scenarios where the IG get overrun I should overlook? Running out of ammunition isn't the only way you can get overrun. Remember, high casualties usually lead to the same thing.
Guard are trained under the most propaganda-bloated routines availible. They are not supposed to know about the fact they could actually be defeated by xenos, witches or heretics, or to __advance_backwards under any other situation then their officers telling them to do so ( which is gamewise voluntary movement rather then defecting by failing panic tests ).

Stonerkid655321
27-01-2008, 21:27
It would at least be a minor improvement to at least give all guard frag krack and lasgun/cc weapon.

xibo
27-01-2008, 21:33
It would at least be a minor improvement to at least give all guard frag krack and lasgun/cc weapon.
pistols( read ccw ) would be useless under the current ruleset (models that carry rapid fire weapons may not attack if they shot in the shooting phase), frags would be nice and kraks useless again, especially if having them affects the point costs.

sabreu
27-01-2008, 21:35
Flak armour can be better then nothing but it's still not good enough to pay points for it, unless the armour is combined with other goodies such as was the old tau codex's kroot armour which had the side effect of boosting their leadership.

You don't pay points for it though, at all. Not even now. It's your basic armour. You can pay for carapace armour though and at a flat rate in contrast instead of a pay per model basis.



And with any common sence it doesn't make sence to have to pay point because you are able to take an option. it makes sence to have to pay points IF you take that option. E.G. say an autocannon makes a squad of ten guardsmen with lasguns who are actually worth about 45 points be worth about 70 then the autocannon should be +25 points and not paying 60 for 10 dummies which are overpriced unless you take a weapon option.

I'm actually confused on what it is your arguing/suggesting here. Can rephrase this please?


Vox caster costs 5 points per squad and require the command platoon command squad MVC and captain to be both alive ( and iirc not in combat either ) but not in a transport, on the run or pinned in order to work, which is already +30 points for the captain upgrade, +25 points for the master vox and another +5 points for any squad that wants to make use of it... it's not that i want to pay 100+ points for a HQ and +5 points per squad in order to get a command squad that is in game terms worth 2~3 tactical marines ( and that only if there's a power sword at the captain ) and an army wide Ld of 9 while all the other armies have Ld10 through their aspiring champions, Rites which come on a character which is good enough for its price to be taken even without the rites, fearless, mob 'eads count, acts of faith, ...

Hm. High leadership is a game problem, but it's being fixed. Mob'ead count really only effects horde players, Chaos and SM are elite armies with a vasty inferior model count, acts of faith are limited. Everything has checks and balances. ::shrugs:: Really, I don't see your overall point in this paragraph. Are you suggesting vox's should get cheaper, or just angry about every army having an inbuilt leadership system?



once again, i don't want to pay for the ABILITY to take options. I don't want guardsmen to become BS4/WS4/Str4/I4 either.

Where is this sentiment coming from? No one's suggested a better statline or paying for the ability to take options. I guess your one of the many suffering from selective reading.



precisely. the barbaric army of lowlife fodder doom has to have the same chances against an ballanced enemy by fielding only hordes of close combat oriented, shortrange armed ( read meltguns and flamers, although meltguns aren't feral ) cannon fodder as the sharpshooters-hardenedfighters-ID-SniperTeams-LightInfantry elite guard or the armoured company.

All of which will get streamlined and made easier to manage. :rolleyes:



Guard are trained under the most propaganda-bloated routines availible. They are not supposed to know about the fact they could actually be defeated by xenos, witches or heretics, or to __advance_backwards under any other situation then their officers telling them to do so ( which is gamewise voluntary movement rather then defecting by failing panic tests ).

And this is a counter arguement to what again?

Lame Duck
27-01-2008, 22:35
Well, the guardsman point stat line 'debate' has been goin on a bit.

I would suggest allowing squads to take 2 special weapons and a heavy. However, the special weapons available would be storm bolters, improved grenade launchers, flamers and meltas, all at cheaper points than currently available. I would keep the heavy weapons at the same point cost.

Each platoon should be able to choose up to 2 of the following options:
Carapace- +2 points per model
Warrior Weapons- swap lasgun for ccweapon and laspistol for free
Sharpshooters- +1 point per model
Close order drill- for free
Free frag grenades
Infiltrate- +1 point per model
Cameleoline- +1 point permodel
+1 BS- +2 points per model <- (to replace the current grenadiers doctrine?)
Chem inhalers- +1 point per model


Sargeants should be cheaper, and be able to take iron discipline for +8pts.

I also think it might be worth considering removing vox casters, and increasing the officers Ld radius to 18".

Angelus Mortis
27-01-2008, 22:40
pistols( read ccw ) would be useless under the current ruleset (models that carry rapid fire weapons may not attack if they shot in the shooting phase), frags would be nice and kraks useless again, especially if having them affects the point costs.

If the 5e rumors remain true, there was something about models with nades always assaulting vehicles rear armor, so krak wouldnt be useless. S3 vs av 10 = no go. S6= darn good chance to cause some damage. That being said, I dont think IG should get Frag/Krak standard, as that seperates the SM/CSM highly equipped from the IG equipped en-masse. ST on the other hand should get both standard.

Gensuke626
27-01-2008, 22:50
If the 5e rumors remain true, there was something about models with nades always assaulting vehicles rear armor, so krak wouldnt be useless. S3 vs av 10 = no go. S6= darn good chance to cause some damage. That being said, I dont think IG should get Frag/Krak standard, as that seperates the SM/CSM highly equipped from the IG equipped en-masse. ST on the other hand should get both standard.

that particulary rumor was thrown out a bit ago with the PDF leak. It may exist, but there is no proof that it will ever happen.

just a quick thing I Thought i'd mention...I'd love to see Guard getting something like a Deffrolla. Maybe not as potent...or as random...but something to allow you to say "Hey, My Chimera has a Spiked Plough. I tank shock that unit to cause x many wounds on it! yay!"

Lord Cook
27-01-2008, 22:53
It would at least be a minor improvement to at least give all guard frag krack and lasgun/cc weapon.

No it wouldn't. Neither type of grenade would ever get used, and giving guard a few extra attacks in combat isn't going to solve any problems considering they're a shooting army and should remain as such. The extra equipment for the marines made sense, but not on basic troops.


models that carry rapid fire weapons may not attack if they shot in the shooting phase

If they fired their pistols they can still assault. That was the whole point of giving them pistols and ccw as well as bolters. Please don't bring RAW into a situation where the RAI is very clear.


I dont think IG should get Frag/Krak standard... ST on the other hand should get both standard.

Storm troopers already get frag and kraks as standard.

catbarf
27-01-2008, 22:59
Sabreu, while Guardsmen get 1 shot at 24", Orks get 2 shots at 18", so it evens out. Orks have Guardsmen beat in shooting and CC.


I see a lot of people saying advisors are useless.

My buddy uses a Commissar with a power fist, a Junior Officer with Honorifica Imperialis and a Power Fist, and a command squad of 4 melta guns. It gives him some powerful punch for the cost he pays for it. As a counter charge unit it does some damage...

Target the Officer, who's an IC- splat! And the Commissar is 60(!)pts. Very expensive for a not-too-great unit.

sabreu
27-01-2008, 23:19
Again, why are you forgetting heavy weapons and specials? Do the orks get a grenade launcher? or a flamer anymore? Heavy Bolter? Hm? Or how about Guardsman trump them with initiative? The are equally dangerous with different strengths and weaknesses.

Ekranoplan
27-01-2008, 23:20
while making ST more powerfull with a third special weapon they thereby become even more like veterans...

I dont beleive the current Hardened Veterans are the way they should be. They are mostly used of suicide drops, mostly. They are slightly more expensive then the Special Weapon Squads, but does the exact same job much better. I think this is a niche for storm troopers, and they would be much more defined in that role if only they have BS4.




nope. if a regiment already has sharpshooters and light infantry vets are no better other then having more special weapons? And the last chancers thing is especially squishy...


I am assuming they are going to abolish the doctrine system. With my idea for changing Hardened Vets, Hardened Vets would then have the very definite role of being a unit to stick in cover and provides weapons fire. Right now, they are only good for drop trooping with plasma or melta to kill tanks. If, like in the Ork codex, you were allowed to take veterans as troops based on a certain HQ choice, you could get a sizable army of veterans.






actually i'd rather say add 0-1 HEAVY weapon squads option for each 2 infantry squads in a infantry platoon and keep the heavy support platoon which IMO should also be able to field special weapon squads.


This sounds like a most formidable idea.



Each platoon should be able to choose up to 2 of the following options:
Carapace- +2 points per model
Warrior Weapons- swap lasgun for ccweapon and laspistol for free
Sharpshooters- +1 point per model
Close order drill- for free
Free frag grenades
Infiltrate- +1 point per model
Cameleoline- +1 point permodel
+1 BS- +2 points per model <- (to replace the current grenadiers doctrine?)
Chem inhalers- +1 point per model


I prefer this to doctrines.

xibo
27-01-2008, 23:51
What would you think about the following:
- All officers bump their Ld by +1 in profile. Commissars give another +1, so the Lieutnand still needs a commissar to get Ld10. ALL Voxes go for free and smaller command squads can take Platoon-Frequency-only-MVCs instead of VCs. Now the disadvantage of the whole thing: If an officer HIMSELF has to do a panic test and finally fails it, everyone who is inside his command range ( which in case of having a MVC is a *large* amount of units ) has to immidiately do a normal movement straight towards the officer ( unless they are bound to combat or pinned ) on say 2+ ( vox interference ), as the officer shouts for his men to help him out. A commissar of cause can prevent this on the usual way.
- If an Officer happens to die but the command squad and a commissar within 12" are present, a command squad member of the guard players choice can be promoted to be an officer and is granted the 'leadership' rule
- IG needs a pioneer unit, to remove mine fields for example, or plant some on their own...
- Especially important: If a commissar is on his own and finally fails a leadership test, state out which weapon he uses to execute himself ( although it would be gamewise cool if a commie who fails panic in CC can happen to accidently drop a grenade or meltabomb right before him and thereby maybe take some enemies to the emperor too when he dies )


Again, why are you forgetting heavy weapons and specials? Do the orks get a grenade launcher? or a flamer anymore? Heavy Bolter? Hm? Or how about Guardsman trump them with initiative? The are equally dangerous with different strengths and weaknesses.
How about the orks having a better nobb that outinitiatives guardsmen unless he has a power fist and is able to crack bots/naughts in CC?
The comparisation is between lasgun equiped guardsmen and shoota equiped shootaboys.

Lord Cook
27-01-2008, 23:57
Interesting idea about platoon frequency voxes. That would be cool, making the whole army less reliant on the central command net. I like it.

sabreu
28-01-2008, 00:02
How about the orks having a better nobb that outinitiatives guardsmen unless he has a power fist and is able to crack bots/naughts in CC?
The comparisation is between lasgun equiped guardsmen and shoota equiped shootaboys.

1.) Cause Orks just got a new dex so their not a point of conjecture right now. :p Besides, this is an IG thread not an Ork one.

2.) No, I never argued lasguns versus shoota. I've been debating guardsman and why they shouldn't get a points decrease.

Chaplain of Chaos
28-01-2008, 00:05
What would you think about the following:
- All officers bump their Ld by +1 in profile. Commissars give another +1, so the Lieutnand still needs a commissar to get Ld10.

On the LD idea in particular, I disagree. I like the fact that IG have lower leadership, I think it makes it fluffy and makes sense.


The only way IG should reach LD 10 is with a HSO a Commissar and a good undisrupted chain of command.

catbarf
28-01-2008, 00:12
Again, why are you forgetting heavy weapons and specials? Do the orks get a grenade launcher? or a flamer anymore? Heavy Bolter? Hm? Or how about Guardsman trump them with initiative? The are equally dangerous with different strengths and weaknesses.

1. They do not get them for free- but this pales in comparison to #2.

2. This was the point in my earlier post. You are suggesting that they are balanced as a unit rather than individually. This is a bad thing. If I take a squad without heavy or special weapons, I'm getting shortchanged because I'm getting the penalty (expensive troops) without the bonus (cheap guns). It also means that min-maxing can be done by taking small units and maximizing their firepower. So, if a Guardsman is worse than an Ork Boy, the Guardsman must be cheaper. It's as simple as that.

Xenocidal Maniac
28-01-2008, 00:14
Just out of curiosity - how many people posting to this thread actually play Guard?

Johnnyfrej
28-01-2008, 00:16
Allow veteran sarges to buy power weapons.

-Private Jon

sabreu
28-01-2008, 00:19
-_- I play guard. Steel Legion mechanised and armored company. Although I only own them because of ebay purchases gone wild while scavenging for my orks a few years ago.

Lord Cook
28-01-2008, 00:25
I have to agree with catbarf about the cost of guardsmen. If you make their equipment cheaper, then that works fine, if they take the equipment. But not everyone wants a heavy weapon in their infantry squads. Not everyone wants crap like grenades and skills. If someone is just aiming for a cheap squad of troops with maybe just a special weapon, they shouldn't be penalised by paying through the nose for their guardsmen and not getting the discount because they didn't take gear.

But if you make guardsmen cheaper, then everyone gets the discount regardless of what style they want to follow. It doesn't force people into paying too many points just because they don't want loads of gear. Yes it will allow vast numbers of guardsmen, and that has advantages with regard to capturing objectives and durability and the like. But that's balanced by the very fact that they have little to no gear and therefore have poor Ld, low firepower and little staying power in combat. Quantity over quality. But don't force people to choose quality just because you think that's the better option.

Bunnahabhain
28-01-2008, 00:26
I have to agree whole-heartedly with catbarf of this one. Balance units internally and against other units in the Army, or you get bad results.

A good example is the land speeder. Is it too cheap? Maybe. Are the weapons other than the assualt cannon far too expensive relative to it. Yes.

Here you have a unit that is just about balanced overall, but is not internally balanced, so it only gets used in one form.

greenmtvince
28-01-2008, 00:31
Grenade Launchers are so bad that I wouldn't take them if they were free and plasma cost 20 points a pop. If they want me to consider grenade launchers, they need to be capable of killing something.

xibo
28-01-2008, 00:55
Let me show you another idea:


Light Artillery
Griffon Siege Tank Points Front Sides Back Crew
X armour like chimera 5 Imperial Guardsmen ( Driver , 2 Mortar Crew Members, the heavy bolter gunner and the tank commander who may fire a hatchmounted weapon )
Imperial Guardsmen Points BS WS Str T W I At Ld AS
Y 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 -
Unit:
1 Squad of 5 Guardsmen ( Spotter team ) and a Griffon Siege Tank
Weapons and Equipment:
- the guardsmen all have lasguns
- one guardsmen has a markerlight ( 36" Str - AP - Heavy 1 See special rules )
- one guardsmen has a vox caster
- the guardsmen have cameoline cloaks
- the griffon is armed with a griffon siege mortar ( or however it's called in english ) and a hull heavy bolter. Both have to fire into the front-facing side of the vehicle.
Options:
- one guardsmen may be upgraded to a veteran who may take equipment like the infantry platoon guardsmen veteran
- the guardsmen may take nightvision goggles at +something P
- the guardsmen may take flak armour at +something P unless they are affected by the carapace armour doctrine
- the griffon may get a hatch mounted machine gun XOR storm bolter for +$(something less then chimera pays) P. They may fire forwars and to the sides of the griffon, as the mortar and the crewmen are in the firing line if they attempt to shoot backwards.
- the griffon may this and that vehicle upgrade it can now take anyways ( other then the machine gun and the storm bolter )

Special Rules:
-Infiltration: If the mission allows it, the Spotter team may infiltrate
-Doctrines: The spotter team counts as regular infantry on the purposes of regimental doctrines, but may not be mounted on horses, and may not take the drop troops doctrine either
-markerlights: a markerlight can be 'fired' uppon any legal target within range and LoS. If a hit is rolled AND the spotter with the vox caster is alive he can give the target coordinates to the griffon which causes it to divide it's scatter distance result by 2. A griffon can shot on a marker placed by spotters of another light artillery unit, and multiple griffons can shoot on the same marker. however, no matter if the spotter's markerlight hits or not a unit's griffon allways has to shoot on the same target as his unit's markerlight ( ie. if you want the griffon to shoot on a target marked by another light artillery unit's spotter team the current unit's spotter team should not use it's marker ). If the spotter who had the vox caster is not availible or the markerlight misses to hit, the griffon of the corresponding squad ( as already stated above ) shoots the same target and scatters normally.



1.) Cause Orks just got a new dex so their not a point of conjecture right now. :p Besides, this is an IG thread not an Ork one.

2.) No, I never argued lasguns versus shoota. I've been debating guardsman and why they shouldn't get a points decrease.
1.) well... nothing to argue about
2.) if lasgun equiped guardsmen are worse ( in shooting ) then shoota equiped boys they should be cheeper, too. If a given weapon makes them more effective in shooting then those orks, they should be more expensive again. let's suppose ( don't wanna do any mathhammer now ) 10 guardsmen with a heavy bolter outgun 10 dakkaboys, then the point cost should be:
10 guardsmen < 10 dakkaboys < 10 guardsmen with a heavy bolter.
lets suppose 10 guardsmen were same good as 8 boys, and the heavy bolter bumps them to the effectiveness of 11 boys ( just an example, no statistics behind it again ) then it should be

10 guardsmen ( 8*$(dakkaboy) = ) 48P
two guardsmen without special weapon may form a heavy weapon team which may be equipped with a heavy bolter for ( 3*$(boy) = ) +24P

Of cause IG has not only to be same powerfull as orks but marines, tau, ... but in general terms balance should IMO work that way and not something like "well your squad of guardsmen is crappy with only lasguns but look you can get a lascannon for +15points"(<-marine costs) which would result on alot of IG squads taking lascannons as they are crappy otherwise...

Stella Cadente
28-01-2008, 04:12
Grenade Launchers are so bad that I wouldn't take them if they were free and plasma cost 20 points a pop. If they want me to consider grenade launchers, they need to be capable of killing something.
you've obviously never used them then:rolleyes:
there my number 1 weapon and I have lost count of the number of dead dreadnoughts/wraithlords/space marines/necrons etc etc etc, that they have killed

Lord Cook
28-01-2008, 04:42
Grenade launchers will be getting a modest boost under the 5th Edition rules. Specifically, frag rounds will scatter rather than miss, and partial hits are gone, so anyone touched by the template is hit. That'll make it useful versus very light troops. I'd still love to see the krak round being Ap3 though...

Baltar
28-01-2008, 05:08
Just out of curiosity - how many people posting to this thread actually play Guard?

I certainly do.

Most people who make ridiculous statements about how to make Guard
"better" don't, as far as I can tell.

Bloodknight
28-01-2008, 07:03
Agreed; I guess a lot of them do not understand how the Guard works in-game. They see a lot of Troops (which are not as many as you should get for your points) and 3 big gun barrels (which miss a lot) but fail to see how overpriced or underpowered a lot of stuff in the codex is.

It's the same with people judging the Dark Eldar with their internet knowledge, but without ever having seen an army of them. You get ridiculous stuff there.


As for free grenades on Guardsmen which stay at 6 points: what is that supposed to be good for? The "hit in the rear armour" rumour is debunked and frags make you strike at initiative in the proposed ruleset, ie after almost everything (and after everything you could seriously hurt). I do not want to pay for grenades, I want naked 50 point guard units without useless bling.
Give me the option to pay for bling but don't force me to.

(I also want my old tanks back, but that is another issue).

Lord Cook
28-01-2008, 07:39
I second all of Bloodknight's points.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
28-01-2008, 09:19
Agreed; I guess a lot of them do not understand how the Guard works in-game. They see a lot of Troops (which are not as many as you should get for your points) and 3 big gun barrels (which miss a lot) but fail to see how overpriced or underpowered a lot of stuff in the codex is.

It's the same with people judging the Dark Eldar with their internet knowledge, but without ever having seen an army of them. You get ridiculous stuff there.


As for free grenades on Guardsmen which stay at 6 points: what is that supposed to be good for? The "hit in the rear armour" rumour is debunked and frags make you strike at initiative in the proposed ruleset, ie after almost everything (and after everything you could seriously hurt). I do not want to pay for grenades, I want naked 50 point guard units without useless bling.
Give me the option to pay for bling but don't force me to.

(I also want my old tanks back, but that is another issue).

i'd rather want 55 points lasgun&laspistol troopers with vet sarge included in the cost.no granades.

catbarf
28-01-2008, 10:22
you've obviously never used them then:rolleyes:
there my number 1 weapon and I have lost count of the number of dead dreadnoughts/wraithlords/space marines/necrons etc etc etc, that they have killed

It's a single Heavy Bolter shot for about the same price. It's not very good at all.

Stella Cadente
28-01-2008, 10:35
It's a single Heavy Bolter shot for about the same price. It's not very good at all.
heavy bolter shot??, when did heavy bolters become str6?, must of been when I was sleeping, its an excellent assault weapon, what keeps its extremely good range of 24" no matter if you move or not (rare for any assault weapon), its good str enable you to take out most armoured vehicles, and also kill anything with a save less than 3+.
and of course you can fire frag, which using I have lost count of the number of marines killed with it

LordJose
28-01-2008, 10:48
all imperial guard players know that free grenades is not the solution.

Many dislike the "5pts for and imperial guard trooper" idea, maybe the trick is just improving the equipment of the units at the same unit cost: "grenades + vox + 1 medic" or "grenades + vox + vet sergeant" or somethink like that.

seriously, 1 point per guard to get frag grenades??? I dont think so

vox at 5 points... well... in paper doesnt sound bad but in the battlefield ...

vet sergeant, its leadership its useless when taking vox, so it will be, +1A with WS3 and S3...

is all of this worth 21 points per squad??? i dont think so

its worth 0 points? i dont think so, but guards are overcosted right know

Varath- Lord Impaler
28-01-2008, 10:56
all imperial guard players know that free grenades is not the solution.

Many dislike the "5pts for and imperial guard trooper" idea, maybe the trick is just improving the equipment of the units at the same unit cost: "grenades + vox + 1 medic" or "grenades + vox + vet sergeant" or somethink like that.

I dont think they are the whole solution, but they are part of it.

Seriously, give the options for grenades and NONE of you will buy them, even though all guardsmen are supposed to come with Grenades.

Angelus Mortis
28-01-2008, 11:00
One thing I absoultely think they need to do is keep the doctrines. Actually, I would like to see the doctrines expanded. It was the single most attractive option given to the IG and was not unbalancing at all. At most they should only tweak the doctrines, but taking it out would be a huge mistake. Not everyone wants to play Cadians. I feel exactly the same about SM traits. Those are what give peeps DIYs their character. (Keep in mind tweaking=ok, removing=no ahh ahh).

Stonerkid655321
28-01-2008, 11:06
No it wouldn't. Neither type of grenade would ever get used, and giving guard a few extra attacks in combat isn't going to solve any problems considering they're a shooting army and should remain as such.

The lack of a powerffist and the fact they have heavy weapons would still make them a shooty army. However the extra attack in close combat would just make them a tad more flexable, after all they are not Tau.


I would really like to see guard 5 points with lasistol, lasgun, frag and krack grenades.

LordJose
28-01-2008, 11:22
I dont think they are the whole solution, but they are part of it.

Seriously, give the options for grenades and NONE of you will buy them, even though all guardsmen are supposed to come with Grenades.


its the same problem with every piece of IG codex that you have never seen in a battle or even in a list, how many priests have you ever seen? how many eviscerators? (im not joking the eviscerator is in the armory)

have you ever seen a player using a purity seal on a priest?? (yes it is in the armoury)

Promethius
28-01-2008, 11:39
Grenade launchers will be getting a modest boost under the 5th Edition rules. Specifically, frag rounds will scatter rather than miss, and partial hits are gone, so anyone touched by the template is hit. That'll make it useful versus very light troops. I'd still love to see the krak round being Ap3 though...

I think the AP is the crux of the issue here; if the krak round could defeat power armour, the desire for plasma would be mitigated somewhat, and as it's still assault 1 there's little danger of grenade launchers (which after all are still one a squad) becoming overpowered.

Grenades would be taken more if they were good for something. In an army which tries to avoid hth with the exception of a small number of elite units, they are a waste of points. I would rather have a situation where grenades allow a guard unit being charged to give d6 str 3 hits or something similar to the attacking unit, so that they became a weapon of deterence; then I might consider taking them.

I agree that guard are overpriced, but I think that there is a very precarious balance between too expensive and bayonette-wielding horde of doom. I think 55 pts for a squad, with grenade options as above (10pts a squad) would make be good. Chimera probably needs to be 55 with heavy bolter. The elites need to be shifted about a bit; either add grenadiers to the troops options ala cadian list or create a separate 'abhumans' section much like how heavy weapon squads used to be. Sniper special weapons teams need to be sorted so that ratlings aren't infinately cheaper and more effective; ratlings themselves could do with new models for the new dex. Add the valkyrie into the list, and I'm a happy bunny.

Lord Cook
28-01-2008, 12:48
Seriously, give the options for grenades and NONE of you will buy them, even though all guardsmen are supposed to come with Grenades.

And in the fluff marines can spit venom yet they don't get a bio-plasma attack. Just because guardsmen tend to carry grenades in the fluff doesn't mean they will be the slightest use to them in an actual game, and as much as I try to follow the fluff, that does not extend to paying points for pointless upgrades. I like the idea of including a vox for free, and I could live with it if they included a veteran sergeant, but grenades would just be a mistake IMO. Guardsmen have neither the ability, desire or opportunity to use them.

sagittar slaith
28-01-2008, 13:03
dont make guardsmen cheaper, make them better. make the chimera better and introduce a light tank. i dont thing GL's need a change, my brothers terminators hate 'em!

Lord Cook
28-01-2008, 13:25
dont make guardsmen cheaper, make them better.

That's what we've been discussing for the past 100 or so posts. Care to elaborate a little as to why?

LawrencePhillips
28-01-2008, 13:51
Basic guardsmen droped to four points a model.

Not likely, following the trend, they'll stay at 6 points but include frag and krak grenades for free.



Chimeras slightly cheaper, or be given a cool specal rule, like a ork style bail out rule. Or maby a rule that Armourd fist squads get to use the chimera radio when they are near it ie giveing them the officer Ld the following turn they disembark for the transport, meaning they would be used for moveing forward and taking and holding objectives.

They'll likly be 15-25 points cheeper



Grenade launchers better or cheaper!

FYI in 5th ed all templates scatter which means the grenade laucher is now alot better in the hands of guard when firing frag or identical when firing krak.



Orgyoins cheaper or allow inclusion of a powerfist.

The powerfist has been toned down, making these boys more viable, although they may still be reduced in price (up upped it ability)



Concripts droped to 3 points.

Note likely, they'll likely stay as they are



Deep strikeing units as only a option for stormtroopers. And stormtroopers being 6 points a model, 8 with deep strike.

With codex deepstrike you'll likely see MORE guard units that can deepstrike and the price of stormtroops will probably remain the same (they're one of the most refined units in the codex)



Maby raise Ld of officers, or just leave them as they are but include the rule above.

LD will play a more important role from now on, so don't expect LD changes. Large units of guard WILL really be an asset to guard, especially conscripts (see the new line of sight rules)

xibo
28-01-2008, 13:58
Grenade Launcher Frag grenades need to be strength 4. Why? Because Frag Grenades have strenght 4, too. The fact that frag grenades from the launcher have strength 3 is because in the second edition the frag grenades that could be thrown without a launcher had strength 3 too. Frag grenades got bumped to str4 in the meantime while GL's frags did not.

St.Germaine
28-01-2008, 15:10
I don't play IG at the present time but am a very interested party in discussions of what we think may be involved in the suspected IG redux as I'm currently painting an ACW themed IG army.

From what I've seen in recent codex releases I'm very nervous about the future of doctrines and traits. The trend at GW seems to be for limiting of the amount of customization that a player can do. I simply do not understand this POV on their part. Being able to have more choices means we buy more stuff because we can do the things we want to. I've seen a suggestion to drop doctrines. I really detest this idea but am fearful that GW will go down this road.

The drop in price for the Chimera and the increase of side armor are both things that I expect we'll actually see as there seems to be a move on GW's part to make transports actually functional again based on the rumors of v5.

Obviously I haven't used them yet but Sentinels make me nervous. I'd love to use them but they seem very fragile for the price. The suggestion to allow use of them independently would make a lot of sense. Fleet for Sentinels has been suggested and while I think this could add to their utility in a major way, I don't see it happening.

The doctrines that I have chosen precludes my using Psykers or Ratlings so I don't have a real opinion about how effective or not I think they will be for me but I do have an opinion about the comment suggesting dropping Halflings-In-Space. Regardless of GW's current company line to the contrary, 40K's original concept was Fantasy armies in space and the analogs were clear. Whether one likes them or not, the Ratlings belong here; don't like them, don't use them.

Numerous people have suggested an adjustment to either the statline or the points per figure to resolve the inadequacies of the IG in relation to other armies. Even just putting together potential lists and from playing IG armies, I can see that these inadequacies are real but neither choice is really acceptable. If the statline is changed, they're not IG any more. This is the statline for baseline humans. If the statline is changed for IG, the statline for SoB has to be changed as well and depending on the changes, thought may be needed to be given to how the SM statline compares to the human statline as they are based on human stock. A very ugly cascade could be initiated here. Decrease their points? No, I already have too many figures to paint.

While I love the idea of the Armoured Company list and would love to see it's official return, Jervis apparently stated at a con recently that this wasn't going to happen. Granted, we have heard from GW before that something wasn't going to happen when it actually did so I still have outside hope that this may be the case here.

The suggestion for defensive use of grenades is very intrigueing but I worry about how this might affect overall game mechanics. It should be investigated but whether they do or not is a good question.

LordJose had some very interesting ideas that I really like the sound of:

8-men Command Squads - more bodies here is an idea that is long over-due.
Sniper teams as a 0-2 support squad in the HQ - another very worthy suggestion.
12 men squads for infantry/vet squads - NO. The structure that currently exist is fine and given that the sprues are set up in blocks of 10, I don't see it as even a consideration.
No "1 mechanized for 1 infantry platoon" restriction - I like this idea but it leads towards an armored company structure and JJ has apparently said this won't happen.
Rough riders as a bikers - I rather like the idea of RR as bikers or cavalry as long as they have the same rules. While I recognize that they may not warrant their inclusion from an effectiveness POV, for an ACW themed IG army they will be in every list I do. Making them more effective would be a very good thing for me.

Firaxin
28-01-2008, 15:34
Mortars don't need -2 pinning, rending, strength 10 ignore cover or whatever else the GW marketing might think out. What mortars need are a cute little special rule that makes them SUPPORT the guard army, like smoke shells or something alike.
That would be THE most incredible thing ever. I feel like it should be more than just smoke rounds though. How about flares, illuminating everything within 12" during a nightfight, or colored smoke, which allows scattering weapons targeting the enemy squad to reroll the scatter die? Then it would have 3 special options in addition to the regular mortar shell.



... Am I the only one actually missing lasguns in the armoury section?
Actually I'm missing Hellguns. I see guardsmen using two arms to weild a bolt pistol, they shouldn't be using them, they should have hellguns instead (especially if they make hellguns assault weapons). Horses would be nice too, then you could attach them to rough riders or something.

Lord Cook
28-01-2008, 15:46
Fleet for Sentinels has been suggested and while I think this could add to their utility in a major way, I don't see it happening.

In 5th Edition, ALL walkers have 'run' as standard, which is basically the fleet of foot rule we have now but without the ability to assault after using it. Actually having the FoF rule removes this restriction.

Baltar
28-01-2008, 15:49
And in the fluff marines can spit venom yet they don't get a bio-plasma attack. Just because guardsmen tend to carry grenades in the fluff doesn't mean they will be the slightest use to them in an actual game.

I agree. Grenades are obscenely pointless on Guard.



And for the record, no one cares how many extra figures ANYONE has to paint. Decisions about game balanced shouldn't be made to save you a few hours.

If Guard goes down to 5 pts (and it will) you'll just have to suck it up, and know that you will actually be able to win much more often with your army.

catbarf
28-01-2008, 16:07
I'm willing to bet each Guardsman will get LP+CCW, Lasgun, and frag and krak grenades because that seems to be GW's only line of thought in update.

I don't think Guardsmen need better stats or equipment, just a price drop.


heavy bolter shot??, when did heavy bolters become str6?, must of been when I was sleeping, its an excellent assault weapon, what keeps its extremely good range of 24" no matter if you move or not (rare for any assault weapon), its good str enable you to take out most armoured vehicles, and also kill anything with a save less than 3+.
and of course you can fire frag, which using I have lost count of the number of marines killed with it

Do you even play Guard? Are you really honestly suggesting that Krak rounds are good for hunting tanks, and frag rounds are very good at killing Marines? The S6 makes very little difference against Marines when compared to a Heavy Bolter, and the frag rounds are nearly useless for an 8pt weapon.

Not to mention, on average it takes 12 Grenade Launchers firing krak rounds at an AV10 vehicle to kill it. Yeah, real effective anti-tank there. That also means that all the squad members with lasguns are wasting their fire against it too.

A single Space Marine takes an average of 7 Grenade Launchers firing Frag at it to die. That means that if each shot hits two Marines, that's still only 2 Marines killed from 7(!) Grenade Launchers.

It's a very underpowered weapon, and pales in comparison to the Plasma Gun.

In fact, let's take a look at the stats for a minute.

Unlike a Grenade Launcher, it only takes 8 Plasma Guns firing to kill an AV10 vehicle.

And it only takes 2 to kill a Marine.

So, for 2 points more, it is roughly twice as good against MEQs and 1.5x as good against light vehicles. It can also penetrate AV11 or AV12 and has a good chance of damaging Monstrous Creatures, which easily makes up for 'Gets hot!'.

Overall, the Grenade Launcher needs to be made better in order to be even remotely useful. The scattering isn't much of a benefit, since usually Krak rounds are used, but what I would recommend would be for it to be made Assault 2 and a point lower S for the Krak round. This makes it very similar to the Heavy Bolter- 2 shots instead of 3, 24" instead of 36". For the same cost, it would be a good special weapon.

dr.oetk3r
28-01-2008, 16:16
Give the Imperial Guard Commanders more special abilities. For instance: air strike (like a mortar barrage), on time, on target (deploys a reserved squad exactly where they're needed without having to resort to scatter dice) and Hold the Line! (all guardsmen are fearless for one turn) :/ i like the hold the lie idea, might not be practical though.


Also, you should be able to choose what type of commander you would like.

i.e. Roughrider commander (lets roughriders be troops), Imperial Commando commander (lets stortroopers become troops) and Tank Commander makes tanks available as an elites choice but more expesive?

Just my ideas :D

Damocles8
28-01-2008, 16:16
I would like to see the GL at strength 4, but with the new rules I could seriously live with it as is....


as for what I'd like to see,

an armored company with a new medium tank (HQ, Elites) armored fist squads (troops), a new light tank (Fast Attack) and include all (or most) varients of the Leman Russ (Heavy Support),

this would eliminate the "I'm scared of Armored Companies" cry because most of the tanks should be av12-13, without like 6 battlecannon shots....

Grubthegrot
28-01-2008, 16:24
I'm willing to bet each Guardsman will get LP+CCW, Lasgun, and frag and krak grenades because that seems to be GW's only line of thought in update.

I dont think so. Marines get a lot of kit because they are supposed to be the most elite, the very best, with access to pretty much anything they want. Plus its silly to have to buy individual pistols when you are playing a 15000 point apoc game, for example.
Guardsman with Lasguns and frags as standard I would agree with, with assault squads getting LP+CCW, frags and kraks.

What about increasing the range of the lasgun? Make it 36" like the pulse rifle? That makes it different to the boltgun, more like a rifle than a submachine gun type. Then maybe wouldn't need to drop the points cost of Guard troopers.

ChrisAsmadi
28-01-2008, 16:27
I would like to see the GL at strength 4, but with the new rules I could seriously live with it as is....


as for what I'd like to see,

an armored company with a new medium tank (HQ, Elites) armored fist squads (troops), a new light tank (Fast Attack) and include all (or most) varients of the Leman Russ (Heavy Support),

this would eliminate the "I'm scared of Armored Companies" cry because most of the tanks should be av12-13, without like 6 battlecannon shots....

I too would like this, but make the Light tank a Salamander (and stick a command salamander as a HQ). Don't make a HQ Squad a required choice, either.

catbarf
28-01-2008, 16:28
I dont think so. Marines get a lot of kit because they are supposed to be the most elite, the very best, with access to pretty much anything they want. Plus its silly to have to buy individual pistols when you are playing a 15000 point apoc game, for example.
Guardsman with Lasguns and frags as standard I would agree with, with assault squads getting LP+CCW, frags and kraks.

What about increasing the range of the lasgun? Make it 36" like the pulse rifle? That makes it different to the boltgun, more like a rifle than a submachine gun type. Then maybe wouldn't need to drop the points cost of Guard troopers.

Well, I was being mildly sarcastic there. As for the lasgun, I don't think it needs to have such long range. Remember, it's not much of a bonus when there's only 24" between the deployment zones. Also, what about someone who uses models with las-carbines, like Catachans? It wouldn't make much sense for the carbines to be reaching out to the same distance as pulse rifles! 24" is a good median, so I think that Guard need to be dropped a point rather than kitted out.

Or, how about both. 5pts basic, long-rifle upgrade for +1pt gives them 36". Now troops like Vostroyans are special.

xibo
28-01-2008, 16:35
Haha. lets do this:
Guardsman 5pts, has autogun or lasgun, both 24" str3 ap- rapid fire
may replace auto or lasgun for auto- or lasriffle for +1pts/model. both have 36" str3 ap- rapid fire
may replace auto or largun for auto- or lascarbine for free. both have 18" str3 ap- assault 1 ( although we could argue 24" assault 1 because it takes away our rapid fire twice shooting )

if we start messing with fire warriors lets get all of their goodies, too ;)

Promethius
28-01-2008, 17:05
I don't think the lasgun needs tinkering with. Like the basic human profile, it is one of the few things about 40k that has remained relatively constant over the years; it is the signature weapon for the guard. Points decrease is a simpler solution.

I'd like to see the various elite/fast attack units tinkered to encourage some mobility; whilst guard play well as a static gunline and should remain in character, it's nice to have options that encourage you to go on the attack every now and then.

jirgaS
28-01-2008, 17:16
Heavy stubbers for squads and two for armoured fists.

sabreu
28-01-2008, 18:17
People like to complain about the weapons and assume they are going to work the same in the next edition as now, which is an assumption no one should make right now. Right now we have some descent rumors, that on their own merit, will strengthen alot of the 'crap' weapons people in this thread are complaining about (if they prove to be true, mind you).

1.) All blasts weapons supposedly will work the same; no roll to hit, no partials, any that are covered get hit. Grenade launcher is looking pretty good here.

2.) Get's Hot rule supposedly will only overheat on a one. The plasma gun get's better there for you rapid-firers.

3.) Assault grenades (frag) are supposed to cause S5 hits on tanks. Krak 6. A very beneficial result in my humble opinion. Not to mention striking in initiative (yes, not good against the majority of MEQ armies, but you still beat orks, Necrons, and Tau.)

catbarf
28-01-2008, 19:03
Heavy stubbers for squads and two for armoured fists.

Oh, yes, Heavy Stubbers too. That would be great.

I think an ability to take a second Special Weapon instead of a Heavy would be simple yet allow more options.

Stonerkid655321
28-01-2008, 20:08
Well, I was being mildly sarcastic there. As for the lasgun, I don't think it needs to have such long range. Remember, it's not much of a bonus when there's only 24" between the deployment zones. Also, what about someone who uses models with las-carbines, like Catachans? It wouldn't make much sense for the carbines to be reaching out to the same distance as pulse rifles! 24" is a good median, so I think that Guard need to be dropped a point rather than kitted out.

Or, how about both. 5pts basic, long-rifle upgrade for +1pt gives them 36". Now troops like Vostroyans are special.

Actually its a guge bonus since it allows them more likely to shoot first turn.

It also allows them o actually get more than one round off before they sre assaulted by things like hormagaunts.

Stonerkid655321
28-01-2008, 20:13
Stormtroopers really need to have their price lowerd.

Maby 10 pts but get deep strike, frag grenades and melta-bombs as standard.

Aryakas
28-01-2008, 20:53
Making Sanctioned Psykers more useful is definitely what i'm hoping for. Also I think Commissars are fine as they are but Priests seem like they could use some tweaking (this might be hard since their in multiple codices.)

catbarf
28-01-2008, 21:49
Actually its a guge bonus since it allows them more likely to shoot first turn.

It also allows them o actually get more than one round off before they sre assaulted by things like hormagaunts.

It takes four squads firing lasguns to kill 8 Hormagaunts. It's not a huge advantage, lasguns are mediocre at any range.

Angelus Mortis
28-01-2008, 21:59
It takes four squads firing lasguns to kill 8 Hormagaunts. It's not a huge advantage, lasguns are mediocre at any range.

Actually if your talking math-hammer (as much as I hate it) on average 4 squads should kill 17 Hormogaunts. Twice that at rapid fire range. If you give them Extended Carapace its still 13.

xibo
28-01-2008, 22:08
maybe catbarf was taking account that 6+ saves *always* are rolled successfull while 2+ saves always fail to lasguns.

Well nevertheless it takes 4 lasgun shots to cause a wound on a gaunt by statistics -> each squad is causing like a bit more then 2 gaunt casualties on >12" and 4 squads cause like 8-9 gaunt casualties unless they upgraded their armour.

*remembers about someone doing a proof that bolters are more effective when shoting once then when shooting twice by rolling it out and not getting any hits while rapid fire-ing*

Defcon
28-01-2008, 22:10
IG's Ld is already 10 rerollable around the captain, and 9 everywhere else if the command chain is still availible... or you bought vox casters. There's no need to increase it.

Just a note that it's impossible for IG command squads to get a 10 Ld bubble unless you are using something not in the codex. Commissar Ld upgrade only works on the HSO unit, not on anybody else, nor on his command bubble, just like trademark items.

xibo
28-01-2008, 22:14
Just a note that it's impossible for IG command squads to get a 10 Ld bubble unless you are using something not in the codex. Commissar Ld upgrade only works on the HSO unit, not on anybody else, nor on his command bubble, just like trademark items.

Hmmm... maybe GW did translation foo but I'm allmost certain the commissar increases the officers' profile leadership ( someone else please say something as I can't check in the codex for now ) ... but nevertheless it's still possible to reach LD10 command squad due to the close order drill doctrine which appearently everyone seems to take...

catbarf
28-01-2008, 22:15
Actually if your talking math-hammer (as much as I hate it) on average 4 squads should kill 17 Hormogaunts. Twice that at rapid fire range. If you give them Extended Carapace its still 13.

40 shots
20 hits
10 wounds
8.33 kills

What are you thinking?


maybe catbarf was taking account that 6+ saves *always* are rolled successfull while 2+ saves always fail to lasguns.

Well nevertheless it takes 4 lasgun shots to cause a wound on a gaunt by statistics -> each squad is causing like a bit more then 2 gaunt casualties on >12" and 4 squads cause like 8-9 gaunt casualties unless they upgraded their armour.

*remembers about someone doing a proof that bolters are more effective when shoting once then when shooting twice by rolling it out and not getting any hits while rapid fire-ing*

1. It's a small boost, so +1pt would be appropriate.

2. If you don't understand the math, you don't need to mock me.

Hulkster
28-01-2008, 22:17
to bring up a new idea, I think it is anyway) what about changing FOC slots

basically I am talking about giving the Guard extra HS slots by sacrificing other slots

I was thinking like this:

1st Bonus HS slot replaces 2 Elite Slots

2nd Bonus HS Slot replaces 2 Fast Atttack Slots

3rd Bonus HS Slot replaces 1 Elits and 1 Fast Attack Slot

what do you guys think?

xibo
28-01-2008, 22:18
2. If you don't understand the math, you don't need to mock me.

I take it you quoted me when you tried to quote somebody else...

unclejimbo827
28-01-2008, 22:41
to bring up a new idea, I think it is anyway) what about changing FOC slots

basically I am talking about giving the Guard extra HS slots by sacrificing other slots

I was thinking like this:

1st Bonus HS slot replaces 2 Elite Slots

2nd Bonus HS Slot replaces 2 Fast Atttack Slots

3rd Bonus HS Slot replaces 1 Elits and 1 Fast Attack Slot

what do you guys think?

I've thought about this too, but if you remember the old Iron Warriors then you'll remember it caused endless 'cheese' whining. Same thing would happen with the guard... even if they changed nothing else so that the tanks were the only things worth using.

Freak Ona Leash
28-01-2008, 22:48
I vote keep doctrines. They make Guard awesome and unique.

Give the Officers "Orders." Such as "Fix Bayonets!" "Find Cover" and "Make a Firing Line!". Fix Bayonets gives the troops +1S and +1I in close combat, but they can't shoot or run (assuming running is in) for that turn. Find Cover makes it so the Guard cannot move at all and suffer a -1 to their BS but have their armor save converted into a Cover Save. Firing Line increases the S and AP of the Lasguns by 1 for every 10 Guardsmen affected by the order. Orders would be issued in the Officers "Leadership bubble" and require a Leadership test on the Officers behalf. Orders only last one full turn, but maybe reissued upon your next turn.

Make Russes and Chimeras cheaper. Make Russes come in squadrons of 1-3 if AC is eliminated. Bring back the Griffon, Exterminator and Vanquisher.

Ogryns get an upgrade for "Powered Bayonets." This makes their weapons count as Heavy Close combat weapons and reduce all saves to 4+ if they were better than that.

And more doctrines. Just because.

sabreu
28-01-2008, 22:51
Hulkster,

That might not be too bad of an idea, since some comment JJ made (according to the news and rumours section) would give that some merit.

Bunnahabhain
28-01-2008, 23:08
Give the Officers "Orders." Such as "Fix Bayonets!" "Find Cover" and "Make a Firing Line!". Fix Bayonets gives the troops +1S and +1I in close combat, but they can't shoot or run (assuming running is in) for that turn. Find Cover makes it so the Guard cannot move at all and suffer a -1 to their BS but have their armor save converted into a Cover Save. Firing Line increases the S and AP of the Lasguns by 1 for every 10 Guardsmen affected by the order. Orders would be issued in the Officers "Leadership bubble" and require a Leadership test on the Officers behalf. Orders only last one full turn, but maybe reissued upon your next turn.
.


Orders are a bad idea, as it would be GW writing them, and they would either end up utterly useless, or horribly overpowered.
The nearest equivilent would be acts of faith, which are balanced as you only have a limited number of attempts to use them, and are not simple to use, or to remember.

Firing line- so line up a full platoon then, for 50+ S8 AP2 rapid fire weapons. That's a nigh on guarnteed kill on a Carnifex, large squad of terminators, any vehicle without structure points ( Vs AV 14. 50 S8 shots, 25 hits, 6.25 glances. Ouch)
And who can say that a full platoon of guard focussing fire on a target isn't fitting to the background....


Doctrines work as they're simple, and either apply in the least crowded phase of the battle- list building, or have simple effects- eg allowing deep strike.

xibo
28-01-2008, 23:09
Pah! giving out leman russes as wargear for seargents is the way to go
*goes and searches cover for incoming flame*

Now seriously, instead of giving IG 6 HS slots at the cost of not being able to take any elites or fast attacks any more, why not bring in a chimera-chasis mounted conqueror turret for fast attack and give russes the ability to take some fancy updates such as pintle mounted grenade launcher ( hey it existed already ... and it would be next to useless under the current rules ! ) that make them more expensive but being elite. After all an armoured company should be still able to take techpriests...

About Orders: how about order "hug the demonette and ask her for a kiss" *goes and searches for cover once again*

Freak Ona Leash
28-01-2008, 23:11
Orders are a bad idea, as it would be GW writing them, and they would either end up utterly useless, or horribly overpowered.
The nearest equivilent would be acts of faith, which are balanced as you only have a limited number of attempts to use them, and are not simple to use, or to remember.

Firing line- so line up a full platoon then, for 50+ S8 AP2 rapid fire weapons. That's a nigh on guarnteed kill on a Carnifex, large squad of terminators, any vehicle without structure points ( Vs AV 14. 50 S8 shots, 25 hits, 6.25 glances. Ouch)
And who can say that a full platoon of guard focussing fire on a target isn't fitting to the background....


Doctrines work as they're simple, and either apply in the least crowded phase of the battle- list building, or have simple effects- eg allowing deep strike.

I don't know about you but 50 lasgun shots HAS to hurt something. >.>

Ok, so my idea needs refining. Don't all?

Bunnahabhain
28-01-2008, 23:26
I don't know about you but 50 lasgun shots HAS to hurt something. >.>

Ok, so my idea needs refining. Don't all?

Maybe I came across a little bit harshly. Didn't mean to....

50 lasguns should hurt. Maybe a pinning test if 2+ squads fire at the target, with -1 to Ld for every squad after the first. Pinning check at -4 might actually mean something.

Freak Ona Leash
28-01-2008, 23:29
Maybe I came across a little bit harshly. Didn't mean to....

50 lasguns should hurt. Maybe a pinning test if 2+ squads fire at the target, with -1 to Ld for every squad after the first. Pinning check at -4 might actually mean something.

Or just give +1S and AP to every squad firing within the Officer's bubble. So we get S4 AP6 Lasguns. Hardly game breaking. Or a S10 AP1 Lascannon. It was already going to blow your tank up, it just does it extra good now.

catbarf
29-01-2008, 00:33
I take it you quoted me when you tried to quote somebody else...

Unless, of course, I refer to:


maybe catbarf was taking account that 6+ saves *always* are rolled successfull while 2+ saves always fail to lasguns.

Angelus Mortis
29-01-2008, 00:42
40 shots
20 hits
10 wounds
8.33 kills

What are you thinking?

Bah, I did it the first time for rapid fire then doubled it by mistake. My bad. Your right.





2. If you don't understand the math, you don't need to mock me.

Who mocked you? Got a tude much? (Now I'm mocking you. See the dif?)


to bring up a new idea, I think it is anyway) what about changing FOC slots

basically I am talking about giving the Guard extra HS slots by sacrificing other slots

I dont care for that idea at all. Thats one of the main reasons the old Iron Warrior list was so broken. I dont think the FOC needs to be messed with at all.

Stonerkid655321
29-01-2008, 00:46
Hmmm... maybe GW did translation foo but I'm allmost certain the commissar increases the officers' profile leadership ( someone else please say something as I can't check in the codex for now ) ... but nevertheless it's still possible to reach LD10 command squad due to the close order drill doctrine which appearently everyone seems to take...

You are wrong. The close order drill donus cannot be used if you are useing the officers ld.

Stonerkid655321
29-01-2008, 00:49
to bring up a new idea, I think it is anyway) what about changing FOC slots

basically I am talking about giving the Guard extra HS slots by sacrificing other slots

I was thinking like this:

1st Bonus HS slot replaces 2 Elite Slots

2nd Bonus HS Slot replaces 2 Fast Atttack Slots

3rd Bonus HS Slot replaces 1 Elits and 1 Fast Attack Slot

what do you guys think?


I think this is bad and would lead to unbalanced armys.

Bunnahabhain
29-01-2008, 01:05
You are wrong. The close order drill donus cannot be used if you are useing the officers ld.


Close order can be used by anyone in a normal infantry platoon, which includes the officer. He's Ld8+ 1 for close order, and then test on the officers Ld, which is currently 9.
Using a commisar, anyone with in 12'' may use the officers effective Ld of 10.

Ld 11 may even be possible. Junoir officer with Hon Imp = Ld 9. +1 for close order, +1 for commisar. Stats are capped at 10, but values may exceed that, as proven with attacks...

Angelus Mortis
29-01-2008, 01:18
Close order can be used by anyone in a normal infantry platoon, which includes the officer. He's Ld8+ 1 for close order, and then test on the officers Ld, which is currently 9.
Using a commisar, anyone with in 12'' may use the officers effective Ld of 10.

Ld 11 may even be possible. Junoir officer with Hon Imp = Ld 9. +1 for close order, +1 for commisar. Stats are capped at 10, but values may exceed that, as proven with attacks...

So basically you want the IG to be able to have a higher Leadership than Space Marines? The "and the shall know no fear" Space Marines? Personally, I dont think IG should ever have a better LD than 9. And 9 should cost them. Morale as it stands in the current rules is pointless as it is, as most things are Fearless or the equivilant. Morale needs to be made more important in 5e (we can only hope) and morale should always be a weakness of the guard. After all, they are mostly just Joe Schmuck concripts pulled off the street and pressed into service, not the genetically engineered psycho indoctrinated killing machines of the Space Marines.

Basically, higher leadership is the last thing IG needs. Thats part of their character. Increasing it to 10 would be power gaming at its finest.

Captain Micha
29-01-2008, 01:36
Ig have a ton of problems, I don't think Leadership is necessarily part of those problems though.

Stella Cadente
29-01-2008, 01:50
Do you even play Guard? Are you really honestly suggesting that Krak rounds are good for hunting tanks, and frag rounds are very good at killing Marines? The S6 makes very little difference against Marines when compared to a Heavy Bolter, and the frag rounds are nearly useless for an 8pt weapon.
I yes I really do play guard, yes I am suggesting Kraks (which are designed to kill tanks) are good at killing tanks (NOTE this is from experience which automatically supercedes all mathammer because mathammer proves NOTHING), the str6 does make a huge difference against anything, not just Marines (you do realise there are other armies out there correct??) against Orks its extremely good, against nids too, other guard, against anything with a 3+ save its average, and average is good because its a jack of all trades, sure not an expert at anything, but I don't need an expert.

Not to mention, on average it takes 12 Grenade Launchers firing krak rounds at an AV10 vehicle to kill it. Yeah, real effectiveanti-tank there. That also means that all the squad members with lasguns are wasting their fire against it too.
12 Grenade launcher rounds?, I assume this info comes from your rectum?, I have killed dozens of vehicles in LESS than 2 shots, rhinos, dreadnoughts, even the odd predator when they get cocky (I'm sure you know what thats like), so this 12 shot average is complete and utter bull really

A single Space Marine takes an average of 7 Grenade Launchers firing Frag at it to die. That means that if each shot hits two Marines, that's still only 2 Marines killed from 7(!) Grenade Launchers.
7 grenade launcher shots?, must be from the same place as your vehicle theory

It's a very underpowered weapon, and pales in comparison to the Plasma Gun.
of course it pales to the plasma gun, thats obvious, BUT I don't buy a grenade launcher expecting a Plasma gun, I buy it expecting a reliable, good ranged assault weapon, which is what it IS

In fact, let's take a look at the stats for a minute.
lets not because so far none of your stats have applied to the real world (you know the world with figures and dice, not maths)

Unlike a Grenade Launcher, it only takes 8 Plasma Guns firing to kill an AV10 vehicle.
mope it only taks 1

And it only takes 2 to kill a Marine.
nope it can take 1

So, for 2 points more, it is roughly twice as good against MEQs and 1.5x as good against light vehicles. It can also penetrate AV11 or AV12 and has a good chance of damaging Monstrous Creatures, which easily makes up for 'Gets hot!'.
sure it does, if you want a plasma gun that you might ony fire once, which might fail to kill your target, which might fail to hit, meaning its unreliable because you may never shoot it again, at least a grenade launcher at 24" is never gonna die, and your gonna get at least 3 shots compared to 1 if you die.
reliability over power WINS

Overall, the Grenade Launcher needs to be made better in order to be even remotely useful. The scattering isn't much of a benefit, since usually Krak rounds are used, but what I would recommend would be for it to be made Assault 2 and a point lower S for the Krak round. This makes it very similar to the Heavy Bolter- 2 shots instead of 3, 24" instead of 36". For the same cost, it would be a good special weapon.
Overall the Grenade Launcher needs....a small points decrease, and NOTHING more

Captain Micha
29-01-2008, 01:55
I don't know, I'd rather take flamers than grenade launchers. Melta's > grenades, plasma > grenades. I feel that they are the worst weapon in the Ig special weapons arsenal. I don't think it needs much, maybe an ap boost to ap3 (after all if it can take down an armored vehicle, I would think Marine armor shouldn't stand a chance do you?)

There are just too many other more useful options. Much like an auto cannon which has almost no place in the codex, given heavy bolters are much cheaper, and lascannons are only a touch more expensive.

Baltar
29-01-2008, 02:18
Grenade Launchers are a really decent option against the new Orks or the Tyranids, but only as Frag.

Can't really think of a reason I would prefer the Krak rounds vs. Plasma. Grenade Launchers do need a points drop of say 3 or 4.

catbarf
29-01-2008, 02:19
I yes I really do play guard, yes I am suggesting Kraks (which are designed to kill tanks) are good at killing tanks (NOTE this is from experience which automatically supercedes all mathammer because mathammer proves NOTHING), the str6 does make a huge difference against anything, not just Marines (you do realise there are other armies out there correct??) against Orks its extremely good, against nids too, other guard, against anything with a 3+ save its average, and average is good because its a jack of all trades, sure not an expert at anything, but I don't need an expert.

1. Actually, mathhammer supersedes all experience, as it is ALWAYS correct whereas experience could be pulled straight out of your rear. Mathammer proves everything experience does, except it's much more accurate. NASA does not plan space flights on experience. Atomic engineers do not create fusion based on experience. It all works off of mathematics.

2. S6 is not anti-tank. Not at all.

3. You're not an expert- but the numbers are. You might need to consult an expert to tell you about how many shots it usually takes to kill a marine, but I have math that does the same thing.


12 Grenade launcher rounds?, I assume this info comes from your rectum?, I have killed dozens of vehicles in LESS than 2 shots, rhinos, dreadnoughts, even the odd predator when they get cocky (I'm sure you know what thats like), so this 12 shot average is complete and utter bull really

So, out of two dice rolled, you regularly get a 4+ followed by a 5+? Bull. I don't buy that for a second because it makes absolutely no sense.

The numbers do not lie. People do. Stella, Would you care to explain how you roll so well?


7 grenade launcher shots?, must be from the same place as your vehicle theory

Yup, scientifically testable fact, also known as mathematics.


of course it pales to the plasma gun, thats obvious, BUT I don't buy a grenade launcher expecting a Plasma gun, I buy it expecting a reliable, good ranged assault weapon, which is what it IS

So, why not get a Plasma Gun? For 2pts more, it is everything the GL is and more.


lets not because so far none of your stats have applied to the real world (you know the world with figures and dice, not maths)

Actually, the real world is completely based on statistics. Lottery. Chemistry. Physics. So you've got to be an idiot to think it doesn't apply to real life.

How do you think casinos make money? Do you think they just randomly decide the games? Every single one is mathematically calculated to ensure that more money is lost than won. These are games that use dice. Probability is not only a real field of mathematics, but regularly applied to dice.


mope it only taks 1

But almost always takes more, and can take far more.


nope it can take 1

But almost always takes more, and can take far more.


sure it does, if you want a plasma gun that you might ony fire once, which might fail to kill your target, which might fail to hit, meaning its unreliable because you may never shoot it again, at least a grenade launcher at 24" is never gonna die, and your gonna get at least 3 shots compared to 1 if you die.
reliability over power WINS

What? You're saying that because there's a possibility that I might miss and die, it always will happen? Here's a similar statement:

Grenade Launchers are useless. You will fire once, might miss, and then get might killed in the next turn. Plasma guns always hit and kill. Reliability over power WINS.


Overall the Grenade Launcher needs....a small points decrease, and NOTHING more

And if you actually had any real experience outside your fantasy world where you always roll sixes, or if you knew the opinion of the vast majority of Guard players, you'd know better.

Stella Cadente
29-01-2008, 02:29
*sigh* whats the point Catbarf, everythings useless to you
I know that the grenade launcher IS the best weapon I have ever used, better than plasma

catbarf
29-01-2008, 02:41
*sigh* whats the point Catbarf, everythings useless to you

Right, because *I'm* the one who's discounting middle-school math education. Mathematics, the very basis of all technology and civilization. Can't deal with that crap, just throw it all out. :rolleyes:


I know that the grenade launcher IS the best weapon I have ever used, better than plasma

And this takes the cake. Better than plasma. Better than lascannons. Better than Heavy Bolters. Better than PFists and Earthshakers and Battle Cannons and Demolishers. I don't think you have any practical experience at all, especially as its your dubious word against the resolute numbers.

Stonerkid655321
29-01-2008, 02:41
I completly side with Catbarf.

Math beats experence anyday.

Stella Cadente
29-01-2008, 03:01
Right, because *I'm* the one who's discounting middle-school math education. Mathematics, the very basis of all technology and civilization. Can't deal with that crap, just throw it all out. :rolleyes:
Maths proves nothing in 40k
I have smashed maths aside hundreds of times, destroying all of its perfection
1 guardsmen making 3 broadsides run off the board
1 JO killing 20 kroot and 40 fire warriors in close combat
1 Guardsmen killing 2 terminators with a lasgun
15 Marines dying to frag grenades in 1 game
going a whole game without a single battle cannon shot from 3 tanks scattering
1 leman russ surving 51 Railgun shots in 1 game
a marine player losing 3 dreadnoughts to krak grenades in 1 game
a veteran SGT killing a WOLF LORD who charged with full wounds
HSO getting back up 6 times from Bionics (and thats happened in 5 games in a row, although always 6 for some reason)
etc etc etc
now according to your maths, most of these examples should be practically close to Impposible, yet they HAVE happened, strange that ain't it

And this takes the cake. Better than plasma. Better than lascannons. Better than Heavy Bolters. Better than PFists and Earthshakers and Battle Cannons and Demolishers. I don't think you have any practical experience at all, especially as its your dubious word against the resolute numbers.
alright best ASSAULT weapon I ever used, although you knew that already and just wanted to be difficult

AllisterCaine
29-01-2008, 03:28
Stella...no; grenade launchers just suck period, you a fool for thinking otherwise. Your opinion, whatever right? But when that opinion happen to go against 10 billion other "opinions" you should reconsider it.

Bringing math into this? That is stupid, if 40k rules made more sense, then bringing statistics and probability into this might have made more sense. Probability doesnt even make sense by itself, and unless it is supported by other known facts or givens, it is useless, and if you really knew it, you would know this. And damn, if you know hes talking bs and out of his ass, why the hell do you even go that far to prove hes wrong? Hes entitled to an opinion, however ****** that opinion may be.

Anyways, how about the idea of the option of making one Leman Russ a command tank and have it take up a HQ choice like the armored company? It could use BS4 and have a 12" radius that allows for re-rolling failed morale checks.

sabreu
29-01-2008, 03:29
Mathhammerists always forget luck does have some role to play in our games...

Stella Cadente
29-01-2008, 03:36
Stella...no; grenade launchers just suck period, you a fool for thinking otherwise. Your opinion, whatever right? But when that opinion happen to go against 10 billion other "opinions" you should reconsider it.
but they don't, I have not had 1 game where thay have sucked, so these 10 billion other opinions (more like 10 really) mean nothing to me, because my experience shows that its just NOT true

dr.oetk3r
29-01-2008, 03:40
but they don't, I have not had 1 game where thay have sucked, so these 10 billion other opinions (more like 10 really) mean nothing to me, because my experience shows that its just NOT true

Grenade launchers for the win. Fools.....

Stella http://dawnofwar.filefront.com/skins/smilies/rock.gif

I mean Jesus, some people won't be satisfied until every weapon in the game is AP-2 ad Assault 5....

ORKY ARD BOYZ
29-01-2008, 04:12
Grenade launchers do have some usefullness. Say in a tournament setting which has random opponents with not just space marines. A blast weapon's effectiveness varies on the situation but against weak troops like gaunts I'd rather have the grenade launcher. S 3, blast, will hit on average maybe 3 gaunts? 50% chance to hit, 25% overall to hit then wound. There seems to be a higher chance for the grenade launcher to kill one or two more models than the plasma gun. The krak grenade has quite a low chance of killing tanks. S 6 is better reserved as anti-infantry IMO. Quite honestly I only want the grenade launcher for a portable blast weapon. The krak missile simple cannot compare against a plasma gun.

For 2 points more you get a s7, ap 2 gun that overheats and rapid-fires. This is preferred my many people because it is more effective is more situations. More people use space marines than tyranids. The plasma gun has some anti-tank potential. The plasma gun is AP 2. Quite simply the plasma gun is preferred by more people because it has achieved better results than grenade launchers in some people's experience. Stella, you may have defied the mathermatical odds but the fact of the matter is their just that. Odds. You managed to get lucky and beat the roll but you were more likely to have not to. I prefer to get a s7 ap2 weapon simple because it can kill everything from gaunts, to marines to light tanks. The grenade launcher CAN kill more troops. But it's just that most basic troops of other lists are better than gaunts

Cheers

ORKY ARD BOYZ

kdh88
29-01-2008, 04:20
but they don't, I have not had 1 game where thay have sucked, so these 10 billion other opinions (more like 10 really) mean nothing to me, because my experience shows that its just NOT true

The problem with experience isn't that it's necessarily wrong, it's that it is unreliable and isn't generalizable. You may only think that you've had success with grenade launchers, when you are actually falling victim to availability bias (in other words, you remember when they work but not when they don't). It's also entirely possible that you actually have had great luck with grenade launchers and terrible luck with plasma by pure chance; there are enough players that someone out there does. But that means exactly nothing to anyone else, because your experience isn't in any way related to theirs. They can't see it, and they can't replicate it. It's the same as someone saying "I had a lone gretchin that locked a bloodthirster in combat for a whole game, so gretchin are awesome"; it may be true, but no one else can necessarily do the same thing. Math however can be used by anyone, is repeatable, is reliable, and is universally applicable.

Templarx88
29-01-2008, 04:20
I personally think that storm troopers should be left as is but just scrap the one off hellgun and give them bolters, it wouldn't unbalance them, and every other Imperial unit that can be considered vaguely 'elite' has them.

Basic guardsmen are harder to balance, because they are horribly over costed for what they do, but dropping their points means you can just take way to many. At any rate, cheaper heavy weapons makes sense.

And then give veterans the hellguns?

Cuthullu
29-01-2008, 05:39
Never give Bolters to more than the Guardīs Leaders.

Lord Cook
29-01-2008, 07:54
JCommissar Ld upgrade only works on the HSO unit, not on anybody else, nor on his command bubble, just like trademark items.

According to the FAQ the +1Ld commissar bonus works within his 12" leadership radius as well.


You are wrong. The close order drill donus cannot be used if you are useing the officers ld.

Correct, but the officers within an infantry platoon can use it and then pass it on to nearby squads.


After all, they are mostly just Joe Schmuck concripts pulled off the street and pressed into service

With respect, that's a load of absolute bull. How familiar are you with the Guard background? And I'm not talking about the stereotyped IG fluff you see repeated over and over again on internet forums. I don't see why the presence of commissars or draconian training and discipline shouldn't inspire very firm morale in the troops. When you fear your own political officers as much as the enemy, you hold your nerve nearly as strongly as any marine doing so out of faith or pride.


lets not because so far none of your stats have applied to the real world (you know the world with figures and dice, not maths)

The problem is that your evidence is purely anecdotal. So rather than shouting and screaming and generally having a good whine at us for relying on maths, try to realise that your experiences are yours. They are not what will probably happen. It doesn't matter if you have extraordinarily good luck with grenade launchers and use them to take out dreadnoughts and predators, because the fact is that we (with our normal mortal luck) cannot do that. In a game based entirely on dice rolls, it's obvious that basic mathematics and probability have a HUGE effect. Now I understand that on a case by case basis, it comes down to luck, but you know perfectly well that over the course of thousands of games by thousands of players, all probability evens out. Grenade launchers are NOT good against tanks, and perform poorly against power armour. I've seen sentinels kill carnifexs in CC, that doesn't mean I go on to an internet forum and swear blindly that there's nothing wrong with sentinels and that everyone should use them in the same manner. It's stupid and it insults your (and our) intelligences.

Angelus Mortis
29-01-2008, 09:59
Stella...no; grenade launchers just suck period, you a fool for thinking otherwise. Your opinion, whatever right? But when that opinion happen to go against 10 billion other "opinions" you should reconsider it.

Well, I agree with Stella about the nade launchers. The only thing they need is a pts drop by 1 or 2. Judging by the posts here, more peeps agree with him than you. So unless your counting your models in your army as agreeing with you, I think the argument is favoring him.


The problem with experience isn't that it's necessarily wrong, it's that it is unreliable and isn't generalizable. You may only think that you've had success with grenade launchers, when you are actually falling victim to availability bias (in other words, you remember when they work but not when they don't). It's also entirely possible that you actually have had great luck with grenade launchers and terrible luck with plasma by pure chance; there are enough players that someone out there does. But that means exactly nothing to anyone else, because your experience isn't in any way related to theirs. They can't see it, and they can't replicate it. It's the same as someone saying "I had a lone gretchin that locked a bloodthirster in combat for a whole game, so gretchin are awesome"; it may be true, but no one else can necessarily do the same thing. Math however can be used by anyone, is repeatable, is reliable, and is universally applicable.

Math is a predictor. Experience is the reality. Scientific methodology isnt just math. They use math to predict what they should see in the field, then they go to the field and see what they get through practical application (aka, experience) and see if it matches up. So saying math is the end all and experience is worthless is ill informed and your opinion, not reality.


Never give Bolters to more than the Guardīs Leaders.
Personally, I wouldnt give bolters to IG at all, not even leaders. Its a Marine weapon and only really good en-masse as well. Maybe I could be talked into giving it as an option for ST, but I think they are just fine with Hellguns.


With respect, that's a load of absolute bull. How familiar are you with the Guard background? And I'm not talking about the stereotyped IG fluff you see repeated over and over again on internet forums. I don't see why the presence of commissars or draconian training and discipline shouldn't inspire very firm morale in the troops. When you fear your own political officers as much as the enemy, you hold your nerve nearly as strongly as any marine doing so out of faith or pride.

And I dont have a problem with Commisars doing that at all. But the problem is, Commisars only work while their alive and you can only get 5 of them. Secondly, making IG have a better Ld will only compound this further and basically making Commisars redundant and making IG harder than SM. Is that what you want to see? Thats contrary to all fluff, I dont care where you read it. But again, that goes to my point of Morale being pointless in 40k as it is now, and I hope they make it more important in 5e. That being said, who is the best candidates for being susceptable to morale? IG is definitely in the top 2.




The problem is that your evidence is purely anecdotal. So rather than shouting and screaming and generally having a good whine at us for relying on maths, try to realise that your experiences are yours. They are not what will probably happen. It doesn't matter if you have extraordinarily good luck with grenade launchers and use them to take out dreadnoughts and predators, because the fact is that we (with our normal mortal luck) cannot do that. In a game based entirely on dice rolls, it's obvious that basic mathematics and probability have a HUGE effect. Now I understand that on a case by case basis, it comes down to luck, but you know perfectly well that over the course of thousands of games by thousands of players, all probability evens out. Grenade launchers are NOT good against tanks, and perform poorly against power armour. I've seen sentinels kill carnifexs in CC, that doesn't mean I go on to an internet forum and swear blindly that there's nothing wrong with sentinels and that everyone should use them in the same manner. It's stupid and it insults your (and our) intelligences.

See my point about scientific method above. Nothing is considered scientific without both math and experience. So if your just counting on math to see it through your only counting on half the picture. Math means nothing without real experience to back it up, which it doesnt which is what people are trying to tell you. Theres other factors involved such as make and manufacture of your dice as well as other things that you can not mathematically figure. I'm not discounting the usefulness of math, simply saying you only are using half the method.

catbarf
29-01-2008, 10:17
Mathhammerists always forget luck does have some role to play in our games...

Actually, that is well within the calculations. You expect math to tell you what every single roll is, when what it does is tell you the trend.

If you asked a veteran about how many lascannon shots it usually takes to kill a Predator, and he said five, would you tell him he was an idiot because one time you killed it in one shot?


Maths proves nothing in 40k
I have smashed maths aside hundreds of times, destroying all of its perfection
1 guardsmen making 3 broadsides run off the board
1 JO killing 20 kroot and 40 fire warriors in close combat
1 Guardsmen killing 2 terminators with a lasgun
15 Marines dying to frag grenades in 1 game
going a whole game without a single battle cannon shot from 3 tanks scattering
1 leman russ surving 51 Railgun shots in 1 game
a marine player losing 3 dreadnoughts to krak grenades in 1 game
a veteran SGT killing a WOLF LORD who charged with full wounds
HSO getting back up 6 times from Bionics (and thats happened in 5 games in a row, although always 6 for some reason)
etc etc etc
now according to your maths, most of these examples should be practically close to Impposible, yet they HAVE happened, strange that ain't it

According to the math, those are very possible and may well have happened. Unless you have rolled a seven on a six-sided die, you have never, EVER in your LIFE broken the math. The dice still follow the laws of probability, no matter what you roll. What mathhammer tells me is that you will much more often not kill a terminator with a lasgun than you will.

Or, again, would you say that a veteran knows nothing if he tells you it usually takes x number of shots to kill y? I once killed y in z shots, therefore what he's saying is wrong!


Math is a predictor. Experience is the reality. Scientific methodology isnt just math. They use math to predict what they should see in the field, then they go to the field and see what they get through practical application (aka, experience) and see if it matches up. So saying math is the end all and experience is worthless is ill informed and your opinion, not reality.

When experience is being used as a predictor, as in here, then yes it is worthless and math is the end all be all.

You anti-math people seem to expect it to tell you exactly what you're going to roll every game. That's not what it does. It lets me accurately predict the most likely outcome of any given roll. That's it.


but they don't, I have not had 1 game where thay have sucked, so these 10 billion other opinions (more like 10 really) mean nothing to me, because my experience shows that its just NOT true

I have never had a unit of Conscripts die. According to my experience, Conscripts are invulnerable. Experience is worthless in analysis.

Freak Ona Leash
29-01-2008, 10:22
I wouldn't go so far as to say experience is worthless. Experience tempered with common sense is invaluable. Playing and designing a game using only mathematics as your only consideration would make you a very poor player and/or designer.

That is not to say Mathematics aren't useless. They just aren't the be-all and end-all.

jirgaS
29-01-2008, 10:36
Never give Bolters to more than the Guardīs Leaders.

I'd like to see bolters as an option for stormtroopers. I know that this would make bolters as a default weapon for ST but for me this would give some needed variation and some extra punch when building my Adeptus Arbites army.
This is not going to happen though so i'm quite satisfied if the rumour shotguns for Storm Troopers hold true.

And doctrines should stay but I really fear that they are a thing from the past in the new codex.

Angelus Mortis
29-01-2008, 10:50
When experience is being used as a predictor, as in here, then yes it is worthless and math is the end all be all.

You didnt read what I posted did you? Did I say "experience is a predictor"? No... I believe I said "math is a predictor". Experience is the confirmation or bebunking of the math. If you predict with math, and experience shows different, then your math is wrong and you need to figure out which part is wrong. Look up scientific methodology.


You anti-math people seem to expect it to tell you exactly what you're going to roll every game. That's not what it does. It lets me accurately predict the most likely outcome of any given roll. That's it.

Math is like a computer. Garbage in = garbage out. If you start with bad data, all the math in the world is just going to give you a wrong answer. The first problem with your math is, you assume that dice will roll each number once out of every six rolls on average. In reality it doesnt work this way. See this thread http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65531&highlight=rolling+1%27s.



I have never had a unit of Conscripts die. According to my experience, Conscripts are invulnerable. Experience is worthless in analysis.

And now your arguing in favor of experience? So your saying that by math Conscripts should get massacred but by your own personal experience they are invulnerable?(And I would like to add almost unbreakable with Commisar as well). I'snt that what most people here have been trying to tell you? Your not being very consistent.

Oh, and btw, Im not anti-math, Im anti-junk science. http://www.junkscience.com/JSJ_Course/jsjudocourse/8.html

catbarf
29-01-2008, 10:54
I wouldn't go so far as to say experience is worthless. Experience tempered with common sense is invaluable. Playing and designing a game using only mathematics as your only consideration would make you a very poor player and/or designer.

That is not to say Mathematics aren't useless. They just aren't the be-all and end-all.

Math can't be the end-all, and you can't play a game using just mathematics. You're making the same mistake these others do by assuming it plays the game for you. It doesn't. It just gives you extremely accurate advice on certain scenarios.

In the areas in which math can be applied, it is the be-all and end-all. The problem is that the scope is limited.

You want the math to say 'Ogryns will beat Tactical Marines in assault' and then tell me that it's not always true, sometimes the Marines win, and thus it is useless. No, what math will tell me is 'Ogryns will beat Tactical Marines in assault 43% of the time'. Or, it can tell me the MOST LIKELY result of a single roll. Or, it can let me plan decisions by telling me which unit is easier to kill- T3 3+ or T4 5+.

Now, determining the effectiveness of the Grenade Launcher is well within the scope of mathematics. What Stella is doing is insisting that probability doesn't work, because he doesn't understand it. He thinks it's some wonder device that tells you what every roll would be, as evidenced by:

now according to your maths, most of these examples should be practically close to Impposible, yet they HAVE happened, strange that ain't it
When you try to make generalizations, math is useless. If you try to figure out what every roll WILL be before it is made, math is useless. HOWEVER, to predict a trend, math is absolutely entirely 100% accurate.

To make this assumption is like going up to a veteran and asking him how many lascannon shots it USUALLY takes to kill a Predator. He responds five. You then call him a liar and say his experience is useless... because one time you killed a Pred in one shot.

Math tells me the same thing- how much it USUALLY takes. The average. The mean. The most likely of all scenarios. NOT what will ALWAYS happen.

Bunnahabhain
29-01-2008, 10:58
And I dont have a problem with Commisars doing that at all. But the problem is, Commisars only work while their alive and you can only get 5 of them. Secondly, making IG have a better Ld will only compound this further and basically making Commisars redundant and making IG harder than SM. Is that what you want to see? Thats contrary to all fluff, I dont care where you read it. But again, that goes to my point of Morale being pointless in 40k as it is now, and I hope they make it more important in 5e. That being said, who is the best candidates for being susceptable to morale? IG is definitely in the top 2.



Just checking, but you do know all the talk of close order drill and commisars was talking about tha current codex, not any future one?

Guard can have high Ld, but it comes at a price. For one platoon command squad with Ld 10- (Junior officer, close order drill, iron disclipine, commisar), that's 95 pts for a unit of 6 T3 5+ models that must stay in base to base contact, with lasguns and laspistols.

The standard HQ command sqaud for morale ( HSO, Iron D, banner) is 86 pts before weapons, for a Ld 9 re-rollable bubble. Another small fragile unit
How much is a Marine commander giving Ld 10 the whole army?

Alternatively, Veteran sergeants and close order drill also give Ld 9.

Alternatively, vox links can give Ld 9 across most of the army

Guard Can have very good leadership, which is quite proper for a disclipined professional millitary force. However, it is expensive, and if you start to take apart the chain of command, by killing the officers, it quickly falls apart.

The only forms that don't are the very expensive ones; either doctrines such as chem iinhalers- indoctrination and drugs keep them fighting, or veteran sergeants and close order drill- you have a veteran who's suvivied the worst the galaxy and high command can throw at them, you have your squad mates around you, so you're going to keep fighting.

catbarf
29-01-2008, 10:58
You didnt read what I posted did you? Did I say "experience is a predictor"? No... I believe I said "math is a predictor". Experience is the confirmation or bebunking of the math. If you predict with math, and experience shows different, then your math is wrong and you need to figure out which part is wrong. Look up scientific methodology.

And you're making the same infernal mistake of assuming that math is there to tell you what you will always roll. Experience can never show something different from the math, because everything in your experience is well within the boundaries of the prediction. Just because you got a very lucky result doesn't mean the math is wrong. Math as used in science usually attempts to predict the exact result. It can thus be wrong. Math used in probability determines the possible results, and the most likely of them. Any dice roll is still conforming to probability.


Math is like a computer. Garbage in = garbage out. If you start with bad data, all the math in the world is just going to give you a wrong answer. The first problem with your math is, you assume that dice will roll each number once out of every six rolls on average. In reality it doesnt work this way. See this thread http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65531&highlight=rolling+1%27s.

I use Invisible Castle. Bad data does not come into it. And if you use casino dice, then it works fine.


And now your arguing in favor of experience? So your saying that by math Conscripts should get massacred but by your own personal experience they are invulnerable?(And I would like to add almost unbreakable with Commisar as well). I'snt that what most people here have been trying to tell you? Your not being very consistent.

No, I'm pointing out that personal anecdotes are unreliable at best and idiotic at worst.

Petrov_101
29-01-2008, 11:01
Ughhh... bolters don't belong with the guard IMO. Modify the hellgun but don't give it stats similar to the bolter. I personally think the stormtroopers need a boost in rate of fire by changing the hellgun's profile to a 12" range, assault 3, lasgun.

It would make the squad useful for deep striking/infiltrating near objectives, unloading a torrent of fire in close quarters. I think the IG version of assault is not actually fighting in close combat but unloading a ton of shots at assault range.

Would this make a ST as good a marine in close combat situations?... ahhh, no. The ST would need help from other units to take on a SM unit... soften them up before closing in.

xibo
29-01-2008, 11:05
@stella cadente
lol, i had
- a single veteran taking out a falcon with holofields with a frag grenade ( requires 4 sixes in a row )
- another single veteran shooting down a broadside with his lasgun rapidfiring off both wounds of it
- a single veteran beat up a statured khorne prince with feel no pain, armour and essense ( and the other goodies they had those days )

therefore i shall conclude lasgun armed hardened veterans outshoot broadsides, outfight khorne and are vehicle killers? And come in units of up to 10. They are totally nobrainers at 8pts/model and should be obviously rather something like 80pts/model.

furthermore, even if a grenade launcher would be +0 points and would hit automatically a +10 points plasgun would still be better against >90% of the models on the table...

Angelus Mortis
29-01-2008, 11:43
Just checking, but you do know all the talk of close order drill and commisars was talking about tha current codex, not any future one?


I am aware of that. What it appears to me is they are arguing for making IG better morale wise and I am saying they should remain the way they are. Am I reading this right or did I miss a post somewhere (theres so many and off on so many tangents its getting hard to track)? Please correct me if I am mistaken and if I am I apologize. If not, then my point stands.


And you're making the same infernal mistake of assuming that math is there to tell you what you will always roll. Experience can never show something different from the math, because everything in your experience is well within the boundaries of the prediction. Just because you got a very lucky result doesn't mean the math is wrong. Math as used in science usually attempts to predict the exact result. It can thus be wrong. Math used in probability determines the possible results, and the most likely of them. Any dice roll is still conforming to probability.

Again, the math shows that all things being equal, you should roll a die 6 times and get each number once. What were telling you is, that all things are not equal. You can roll a die 600 times and it will not come up with each number 100 times. Most likely, it will come up with 3s and 4s the vast majority of the rolls. Thats the reality of the way dice work.


I use Invisible Castle. Bad data does not come into it. And if you use casino dice, then it works fine.

Thats great. However, it doesnt say anywhere to use Invisible Castle in any GW produced book. It says roll dice. Secondly, no computer program can exaclty simulate every condition you can think of into what determines the outcome of a die roll. Does it figure out the limp wristed just half drop the dice roll? Or the I making a martini shaken not stirred rattle them around in the cup for 5 minutes roll? No it doesnt. Does it or can it take luck into account? No it doesnt. Now I have to ask, do you lug around a laptop to all your games with some sort of internet access? Also, do your opponents allow it? I know I wouldnt, because I couldnt confirm it as accurate. Thirdly, do you think a tourny would allow it? I can answer that. No ahh ahh.

Now tell me you have never heard of the the " I make all my Termie invuneralbes but cant make one 2+ save" story. I know you have, because anyone who has played this game for at least a few months has seen it or experienced it. People dont refer to the "dice Gods" for nothing. They do it because the dice defy logic. A lot.


No, I'm pointing out that personal anecdotes are unreliable at best and idiotic at worst.

You know you really have a serious problem with the attitude. I suggest you tone it down and be more polite. If you cant make your points without being rude and offensive, then I suggest you stop posting.

Bunnahabhain
29-01-2008, 11:57
@Angelus. I though you were argueing that the Guard Ld factors shouldn't be changed to what they currently are. My mistake.

If only we had a few more needless personal attacks round here, it would make trying to see actual points so much easier.....

Bloodknight
29-01-2008, 11:58
And I dont have a problem with Commisars doing that at all. But the problem is, Commisars only work while their alive and you can only get 5 of them.

uhm...LOL? Only 5? Who uses 5 commissars - that is 300 points equipped. Have you ever even played Guard? Most people struggle to justify more than one commissar and 2 are something you would only see in large infantry only armies.


furthermore, even if a grenade launcher would be +0 points and would hit automatically a +10 points plasgun would still be better against >90% of the models on the table...

I still argue that RoF is the biggest problem of the grenade launcher. A plasma gun beats the GL in almost every aspect while the only thing the GL has in favour is range on the move which is only a minor advantage - if it had two shots it might be ok (and even then it would be slightly worse). And that does not mean that plasma is underpriced.


edit:
You can roll a die 600 times and it will not come up with each number 100 times. Most likely, it will come up with 3s and 4s the vast majority of the rolls. Thats the reality of the way dice work.

That is not correct. While the average of a D6 is 3.5 that does not mean that it comes up with more 3s and 4s. It means that over a series of maybe 50.000 rolls of the dice each number will show at about the same frequency (the average has to do with the fact that the number of pips on diametral sides add up to 7. A D10 has an average of 5.5, but that does not mean that 5s and 6s are the most usual rolls).

Angelus Mortis
29-01-2008, 12:21
uhm...LOL? Only 5? Who uses 5 commissars - that is 300 points equipped. Have you ever even played Guard? Most people struggle to justify more than one commissar and 2 are something you would only see in large infantry only armies.


Which was my point as well. Even if you do take 5 Commisars, they do not afford as good a morale benefit as ATSKNF does, simply because Commisars ability goes away when he does, ATSKNF can not be removed from the table (save enemies within 6"). And I also agree that its generally not worth the point cost either, but thats my entire point. Thats the way it should be for IG. They should be able to get pretty good morale, but at a points cost that is going to cost them bodies on the table. In other words, just like it is now.

Also, I am not going to argue with anyone about dice rolls anymore. This thread is about what you want to see with the IG, not fantasy math-hammer. You want to discuss that start your own thread.


@Angelus. I though you were argueing that the Guard Ld factors shouldn't be changed to what they currently are. My mistake.

If only we had a few more needless personal attacks round here, it would make trying to see actual points so much easier.....

I agree.

Toschenko
29-01-2008, 12:39
A note on MathHammer: I always see a lot of confusion in discussions involving statistics... let's see if I can clarify a thing or two. Math is ALWAYS right, but assuming the conditions are ideal for it to work: we have the concept of FREQUENCY, that is defined as the ratio between the favourable events and the total number of events: PROBABILITY is a more ephemeral concept, since it is defined as the frequency of an event when the total number of events tend to infinite (this derives from the law of large numbers).
So, to put it simple, if you have to roll a 4+ on a six-sided dice, you can claim that you'll do so 50% of the times ONLY if you roll the dice a large number of times (say 100). Otherwise, you can't really say nothing on the result of a single roll, since its value is a random variable and thus impossible to know BEFORE the roll.

This is the difference between maths and real world: experience aprroaches math's expected values ONLY on a large number of games and/or dice rolls: you can't simply judge the effectiveness of a weapon or a unit from one or two occasions (or ten, for this sake). Maths, however, MUST be involved in the design of a game, since it can be used as a predictor of the long term behaviour of one game element, be it a weapon, a character or anything else.

If maths could be used to predict the exact behaviour of all elements involved in JUST ONE game, we could get rid of the dice rolling and say "I shoot my five rapid firing bolters to your ten-men guard squad: please remove 4,44 models. Oh, you're in cover, right: you can just remove 2,22 models. Here is the saw".

[/OFF TOPIC]

Regarding what I want done for guard: I'm fine with the codex as is... with the rumoured 5ed changes vehicles should get better than they're now and this should improve the overall behaviour of the army. The codex (IMHO) needs only some minor fixing, like:

- The officer shouldn't really count as IC in hand-to-hand... they are amongst the weaker character in the whole game and besides that, it would be fluffy if the attendants would protect him from the enemy with their own bodies.

- Maintain the doctrine system and use a well-thought (and thorougly playtested) set of doctrines to boost up the normal random guardsman.

- Maybe give the possibility for guardsmen to shoot the lasgun st S4 if they don't move (the powered-up shot that appears in the novels of gaunt's ghosts)

- Fix ogryns, maybe a 4+ save or T5.

- Tone a bit down the chimera cost, or give it side 11 (or some other nasty rule)

There are probably some other fixes needed, but overall the guard codex isn't a terrible one...

Just my two cents,

Toschenko

Angelus Mortis
29-01-2008, 12:50
Regarding what I want done for guard: I'm fine with the codex as is... with the rumoured 5ed changes vehicles should get better than they're now and this should improve the overall behaviour of the army. The codex (IMHO) needs only some minor fixing, like:

- The officer shouldn't really count as IC in hand-to-hand... they are amongst the weaker character in the whole game and besides that, it would be fluffy if the attendants would protect him from the enemy with their own bodies.

- Maintain the doctrine system and use a well-thought (and thorougly playtested) set of doctrines to boost up the normal random guardsman.

- Maybe give the possibility for guardsmen to shoot the lasgun st S4 if they don't move (the powered-up shot that appears in the novels of gaunt's ghosts)

- Fix ogryns, maybe a 4+ save or T5.

- Tone a bit down the chimera cost, or give it side 11 (or some other nasty rule)

There are probably some other fixes needed, but overall the guard codex isn't a terrible one...

Just my two cents,

Toschenko

There you go. Exactly how I feel about the IG. The current codex is really good, just needs some minor tweaking. I agree with you on all points except the IC part, the S4 lasgun, and the 4+ Ogryn (however, T5 I could go with, they are pretty big). Absolutely in line for the Chimera changes, but I support both Side 11 and point drop to encourage use and better represent it balance wise.

Stonerkid655321
29-01-2008, 13:14
Maths proves nothing in 40k
I have smashed maths aside hundreds of times, destroying all of its perfection
1 guardsmen making 3 broadsides run off the board
1 JO killing 20 kroot and 40 fire warriors in close combat
1 Guardsmen killing 2 terminators with a lasgun
15 Marines dying to frag grenades in 1 game
going a whole game without a single battle cannon shot from 3 tanks scattering
1 leman russ surving 51 Railgun shots in 1 game
a marine player losing 3 dreadnoughts to krak grenades in 1 game
a veteran SGT killing a WOLF LORD who charged with full wounds
HSO getting back up 6 times from Bionics (and thats happened in 5 games in a row, although always 6 for some reason)
etc etc etc
now according to your maths, most of these examples should be practically close to Impposible, yet they HAVE happened, strange that ain't it

alright best ASSAULT weapon I ever used, although you knew that already and just wanted to be difficult

There is no such thing as close to impossable. As far as math gos there is no such thing as close to. Its eather possable or its not. Yes we know its possable for one guardsman to kill 20 terminators. The fact is it is also possable and much more likely that he wont.

xibo
29-01-2008, 13:28
Instead of giving the lasguns strength 4 if they didn't move and make them effective finally heavy weapons, rather give them +1 strength on short range ( just like FB's WE longbows ) to represent the lasgun beam getting defracted by particles in the air when shooting on long range while getting less refracted when shooting on short range ( to hit modifiers would me more appropriate but meh )

Officers being IC is totally stupid. At least give them watch out sir ( WHFB: on 2+ a squad member heroically jumps between the officer and his opponent and he is hit rather then the officer ).

Ogryns don't need 4+ armour unless GW wants to make new models for them. I refuse to accept the current ogrins to have 4+ armour if the cadians don't have. What ogryns need is immunity against lascannon's instantkill ( there were times when ogryns had T5... ridiculous enough space marine scouts had T3 those days ) and a slightly more damage dealing in CC, which would be reflected by them handling armour saves smaller then 4+ as 4+. They also don't need to follow the current trend and get rending as no matter how angry there's alot of other things in an IG army which can surely get more angry...

catbarf
29-01-2008, 13:43
Again, the math shows that all things being equal, you should roll a die 6 times and get each number once. What were telling you is, that all things are not equal. You can roll a die 600 times and it will not come up with each number 100 times. Most likely, it will come up with 3s and 4s the vast majority of the rolls. Thats the reality of the way dice work.

Actually, probability says that while getting one of each number is possible, it is very unlikely. So in this case the dice obey probability.

What I'm telling you is that you want probability to tell you exactly what you're going to roll. Case in point: You think probability tells you that rolling a die 6 times will result in one of each. This is untrue. Probability tells you the average result.

When you roll six dice, you are unlikely to get 123456. However, you are just as likely to get 111111 as 666666, both of which are just as likely as 123456. It evens out. It averages.

Also, you are in fact equally likely to get each number. You will not get more 3s and 4s. There is absolutely no reasoning for this. Casino dice have an equal chance of rolling each number. That's the reality of the way dice work.


Thats great. However, it doesnt say anywhere to use Invisible Castle in any GW produced book. It says roll dice. Secondly, no computer program can exaclty simulate every condition you can think of into what determines the outcome of a die roll. Does it figure out the limp wristed just half drop the dice roll? Or the I making a martini shaken not stirred rattle them around in the cup for 5 minutes roll? No it doesnt. Does it or can it take luck into account? No it doesnt. Now I have to ask, do you lug around a laptop to all your games with some sort of internet access? Also, do your opponents allow it? I know I wouldnt, because I couldnt confirm it as accurate. Thirdly, do you think a tourny would allow it? I can answer that. No ahh ahh.

All of those things you suggested affect every single value on the die equally. Unless a player is deliberately rolling a certain way towards a certain number, then no amount of outside conditions will influence the results of the roll. It will influence the roll, yes, but because the dice are still being randomized it won't make a difference.

And are you really suggesting that a computer is inaccurate because it does not take into account a mystical spiritual force?

Unless someone is cheating or uses bad dice, you have a 1/6 chance of getting each number, regardless of any other conditions.


Now tell me you have never heard of the the " I make all my Termie invuneralbes but cant make one 2+ save" story. I know you have, because anyone who has played this game for at least a few months has seen it or experienced it. People dont refer to the "dice Gods" for nothing. They do it because the dice defy logic. A lot.

Dice do not defy logic. If they do, then lasguns should cost more than lascannons. What you are saying makes absolutely no sense.

Furthermore, while you remember the times when your 2+ save troops get killed by lasguns, you are quick to forget the dozens of times they do survive those shots. It's what stands out the most that gets remembered.

Not to mention that you said earlier that you think you roll more 3s and 4s than other numbers. How do you fail 2+ saves, then?

Of course, if you want to continue with the 'dice defy logic' theory, then I'm going to say that Guardsmen need to go up in points, since because the dice defy logic every 6pt Guardsman is better than a 15pt Marine.


You know you really have a serious problem with the attitude. I suggest you tone it down and be more polite. If you cant make your points without being rude and offensive, then I suggest you stop posting.

No hostility was intended. Personal anecdotes are unreliable at best and idiotic at worst. They could be slightly skewed by the player's own perceptions, or they might be absolutely nonsensical with descriptions of a single squad of Guardsmen slaughtering through armies of Deathwing- which does not constitute valid evidence for Guardsmen needing to cost 100pts each.


Also, I am not going to argue with anyone about dice rolls anymore. This thread is about what you want to see with the IG, not fantasy math-hammer. You want to discuss that start your own thread.

And what we want to see in IG is determined by what we think to be fair and what is not fair. That is in turn determined by their effectiveness. Effectiveness is determined either through math or experience, which can contradict each other. So either math will come into it or there's no discussion.

Lord Solar Plexus
29-01-2008, 13:52
This is turning into a fun debate. :D


Yea, for Ork players...



I see a regular infantry squad able to get a special weapon and a heavy, are cheap, and come in ten man squads. They may not be as good in close combat as Orks are, but that does not warrant them to have their points lowered. They have better gear, better weapons, and a better ballistic skill.


I see a lot of simplified assumptions here. Please bear in mind that I am not saying Orks can't be beaten or Rox!o4R OMG whatever.

Neither the special nor the heavy weapon will see off an Ork mob. It isn't an even trade-off. Not even a HB can cause enough damage to prevent assault. Only concentrated fire from other units will achieve this reliably. Considering that Orks have just gotten a lot faster and even more deadly and even more numerous, are still more resilient and that in a few months, cover will abound, the comparison is lopsided. Better gear? What would that be? Flak armour? Or rather the Nob's PK? Better weapons? Hello-ho? Better than what? Four Big Shootas?



They also have better leadership.


Since when? They have the same base Ld, only Orks don't need it.



Except, all armies know how to rally when they've ran out of ammunition and/or about to get their positin overrun.


Are you sure Nids are familiar with the castling-of-wagons-tactic? What boon did Eldar get because of this knowledge?



ratlings... removed from codex, horrible minis, horrible idea (sniper hobbits in space? wth???)


Several good ideas there, LordJose. I especially like the idea of low key combi-weapons for squad leaders, HS in squads and cheaper pintle mounts. Rough Riders as bikers is another great idea, to pick just a few.

I do disagree with you on Ratlings though - the reason for their existence is the same as for Ogryns. They aren't hobbits, they're Ratlings. And yes, they move through space, just like Space Orcs with trucks and Space Elves with Elf mortars and Space Knights with knightly Kaboom guns do.

Stella Cadente
29-01-2008, 13:58
Cheaper HQ, and no more stupid Junior officer with Honorifica
veterans/veteran sergeants 5pts not 6
Vox-caster as standard in all units
basic guard units 50pts
all infantry heavy weapons reduced cost by 5pts
Chimera armour increased 12/11/10, basic pts cost reduced 50pts
Forgeworld weaponry options made codex standard options
Hellhoud reduced by 5pts
Ogryns 25pts each with toughness 5 and 4+ save
all leman russ options available
BRING BACK THE GRIFFON!!!!!!
refine doctrines
ratlings 10pts
Stormtroopers 8pts with frags+kraks (hellgun assault-2 rng-24 str-3 ap-5)
also clearly define what officers are since there are still people who think SGT's are officers and give them power weapons

Bunnahabhain
29-01-2008, 13:59
Actually, probability says that while getting one of each number is possible, it is very unlikely. So in this case the dice obey probability.

True enough.



What I'm telling you is that you want probability to tell you exactly what you're going to roll. Case in point: You think probability tells you that rolling a die 6 times will result in one of each. This is untrue. Probability tells you the average result.

True enough



When you roll six dice, you are unlikely to get 123456. However, you are just as likely to get 111111 as 666666, both of which are just as likely as 123456. It evens out. It averages.


Not true.

If you roll 6 dice, there is only one possible combination of roles that give 111111. (probability = 1/ 46,656) There are however 720 (6x5x4x3x2x1, ie 6! to anyone who's done elementary stats) possible combinations of roles that yield 123456 ( prob =720/46656 = 1/65)

Take some time to calm down before you post, and make sure you've though about what you're saying.

catbarf
29-01-2008, 14:06
If you roll 6 dice, there is only one possible combination of roles that give 111111. (probability = 1/ 46,656) There are however 720 (6x5x4x3x2x1, ie 6! to anyone who's done elementary stats) possible combinations of roles that yield 123456 ( prob =720/46656 = 1/65)

But in a row, the chance is the same.

xibo
29-01-2008, 14:08
Cheaper HQ, and no more stupid Junior officer with Honorifica
veterans/veteran sergeants 5pts not 6
Vox-caster as standard in all units
basic guard units 50pts
all infantry heavy weapons reduced cost by 5pts
Chimera armour increased 12/11/10, basic pts cost reduced 50pts
Forgeworld weaponry options made codex standard options
Hellhoud reduced by 5pts
Ogryns 25pts each with toughness 5 and 4+ save
all leman russ options available
BRING BACK THE GRIFFON!!!!!!
refine doctrines
ratlings 10pts
Stormtroopers 8pts with frags+kraks (hellgun assault-2 rng-24 str-3 ap-5)
also clearly define what officers are since there are still people who think SGT's are officers and give them power weapons
I agree with everything other then the heavy weapons and the guardsmen. second should be even less as they are REALLY useless without upgrades. And the fact heavy and special weapons make infantry squads so much better should also be reflected by their point costs. The fact we're paying more points for heavy weapons then sailours and spikeboys isn't nice but i tend to think in fact their weapons should become more expensive rather then ours more cheap.


If you roll 6 dice, there is only one possible combination of roles that give 111111. (probability = 1/ 46,656) There are however 720 (6x5x4x3x2x1, ie 6! to anyone who's done elementary stats) possible combinations of roles that yield 123456 ( prob =720/46656 = 1/65)
I think he was imagining '123456' as '1 followed by 2 followed by 3 ...' which results in the same propability as '1 followed by 1 followed by 1...' when he should have imagined 'x1 = {1,...,6} followed by x2 = {1,...,6}\{x1} followed by x3 = {1,...,6}\{x1,x2} ...'.

Toschenko
29-01-2008, 14:08
I agree with you on all points except the IC part, the S4 lasgun, and the 4+ Ogryn...

Fortunately you agreed with me on all my points... :p:p:p


Instead of giving the lasguns strength 4 if they didn't move and make them effective finally heavy weapons

It really depends on how the new rulebook develops. If the current rumours are true and only troop units are scoring, guard platoons aren't any more likely to stand well behind the front line and shoot... the S4 lasgun would be a nice reward for using "covering fire" tactics, e.g. you advance with a squad while the other stands and shoot with more effective power. It shouldn't hurt vehicles too much, since the lasgun doesn't have AP anyway and the best a guardsman can hope is to tear a weapon off the enemy vehicle. Let's face it, even en masse lasgun fire isn't THAT effective...

Also the "move or fire" attribute could represent guardsmen taking their time to aim since they don't to waste their precious shots.

Toschenko

catbarf
29-01-2008, 14:11
It really depends on how the new rulebook develops. If the current rumours are true and only troop units are scoring, guard platoons aren't any more likely to stand well behind the front line and shoot... the S4 lasgun would be a nice reward for using "covering fire" tactics, e.g. you advance with a squad while the other stands and shoot with more effective power. It shouldn't hurt vehicles too much, since the lasgun doesn't have AP anyway and the best a guardsman can hope is to tear a weapon off the enemy vehicle. Let's face it, even en masse lasgun fire isn't THAT effective...

Also the "move or fire" attribute could represent guardsmen taking their time to aim since they don't to waste their precious shots.

Toschenko

I agree. I don't want to see lasguns S4 all the time, but while staying still would be interesting. You could then make shotguns S4 all the time, and they'd each become much more distinct than they are now.

xibo
29-01-2008, 14:18
Well I think capturing table quarters or mission objectives will be the task of our infantry squad or command squad inside it's cheaper and shinier chimera while the greatest part of the company will still be stationary most of the turns ( unless you play AC and the ordinance may still shot after the vehicle moved ).

Lord Solar Plexus
29-01-2008, 14:23
Guard doesn't need any more math. It needs better Grenade Launchers. Currently, they are crap, barring SLD*.



FYI in 5th ed all templates scatter which means the grenade laucher is now alot better in the hands of guard when firing frag or identical when firing krak.


Better in the hands of Guard than in the hands of who? Does anyone else use them?

Also, how come that BS 2 is better than BS 3?



1.) All blasts weapons supposedly will work the same; no roll to hit, no partials, any that are covered get hit. Grenade launcher is looking pretty good here.


I don't get it. The 'no partials' thing is nice. All it does though is compensate for -1 BS in hits. The gun is still S3. AP is irrelevant because everyone apparently will have 4+ cover saves. That's a mighty .75 dead Guardians (if in range, hitting 3), or .5 Orks a turn. Or 4.5 Guardians / 3 Orks per game (assuming the opposition doesn't do anything about it). Pretty good?

While plasma gets a boost at the same time, widening the efficiency gap again? :confused:


Just a note that it's impossible for IG command squads to get a 10 Ld bubble unless you are using something not in the codex. Commissar Ld upgrade only works on the HSO unit, not on anybody else, nor on his command bubble, just like trademark items.

The commissar confers his bonus on the leadership special rule. See IG FAQ 4.0, right column, "Miscellaneous".


You are wrong. The close order drill donus cannot be used if you are useing the officers ld.

The HQ squad can use COD to boost the officer's Ld. A second squad can then use this improved Ld. Whether this second squad is in COD is irrelevant.

EDIT: I just saw that Lord Cook has already answered the Ld questions, so just take it as support of his statements.

*SLD=Stella's loaded dice

Lord Cook
29-01-2008, 14:51
If you predict with math, and experience shows different, then your math is wrong


You can roll a die 600 times and it will not come up with each number 100 times. Most likely, it will come up with 3s and 4s the vast majority of the rolls.


Secondly, no computer program can exaclty simulate every condition you can think of... Does it or can it take luck into account?


They do it because the dice defy logic.

It's a good thing that the Mathhammer argument appears to have wound down, because we were starting to get an awful lot of absolute nonsense spread about, as evidenced by the posts above. I wasn't trying to single out Angelus Mortis in particular, but those were the ones that stood out IMO.

Just to verify, there is no such thing as luck, or for that matter anything approaching the 'unexplained mystical behavior of GW dice and their defiance of logic'. Luck is merely a human term applied to natural probability, and good or bad luck is just our means of describing a series of events happening when they were not the probable outcomes.


What ogryns need is... slightly more damage dealing in CC, which would be reflected by them handling armour saves smaller then 4+ as 4+.

I think GW has made it pretty clear that armour save modifiers are a thing of the past. Berzerkers and orks have lost their benefits, so I hardly see them introducing it afresh for ogryns. Their biggest problem in terms of damage output is number of attacks, with only 2 each. If they had 3, or even 4, that would solve a lot of problems.


AP is irrelevant because everyone apparently will have 4+ cover saves.

Lol at the SLD. But why would everyone have 4+ cover? I don't remember anything in 5e that would suggest more cover, but my memory is hardly perfect so please correct me if I'm wrong.

xibo
29-01-2008, 15:06
[Grenade Launchers]Better in the hands of Guard than in the hands of who? Does anyone else use them?
The disgunting rotting corrupted heretic mislead lowlifefull *more insults here*... no don't make me call their name ... have dared to lay their *insults here* hands on the emperor's great equipment ( LatD traitor scum ).
AFAIK the emperor in his glory convinced GW that LatD are no longer neaded in the universe of the 41st millenium, however...

Outlaw289
29-01-2008, 15:37
Cheaper HQ, and no more stupid Junior officer with Honorifica
veterans/veteran sergeants 5pts not 6
Vox-caster as standard in all units
basic guard units 50pts
all infantry heavy weapons reduced cost by 5pts
Chimera armour increased 12/11/10, basic pts cost reduced 50pts
Forgeworld weaponry options made codex standard options
Hellhoud reduced by 5pts
Ogryns 25pts each with toughness 5 and 4+ save
all leman russ options available
BRING BACK THE GRIFFON!!!!!!
refine doctrines
ratlings 10pts
Stormtroopers 8pts with frags+kraks (hellgun assault-2 rng-24 str-3 ap-5)
also clearly define what officers are since there are still people who think SGT's are officers and give them power weapons

I think Cadente made probably the most concise change list in the thread and it's getting overlooked due to mathhammer :(

The only thing I would add to that list is cheaper Priests and Commissars. Also, have a doctrine that allows you to take Techpriests/Servitors without them costing an FOC slot.


As for grenade launchers: Why not make them Assault 2? Plasma already has the high AP high Strength issue covered, albeit with high cost and high risk, so making the GL's krak grenades AP3 would relegate plasma solely to anti-Termi/MC. Another shot lets it take on hordes more effective (2 frags would be a lot more points efficient than one, which is barely better than another lasgun), and would give you 2 krak-strength shots against MEQs so you can weigh them down with weight of fire.

Angelus Mortis
29-01-2008, 15:49
It's a good thing that the Mathhammer argument appears to have wound down, because we were starting to get an awful lot of absolute nonsense spread about, as evidenced by the posts above. I wasn't trying to single out Angelus Mortis in particular, but those were the ones that stood out IMO.

Right. But you did anyways.


Just to verify, there is no such thing as luck, or for that matter anything approaching the 'unexplained mystical behavior of GW dice and their defiance of logic'. Luck is merely a human term applied to natural probability, and good or bad luck is just our means of describing a series of events happening when they were not the probable outcomes.

Maybe in your fantasy world, but not in the world of reality. Luck is simply the term we use to describe it when things dont add up to your fantasy everything follows a average of math garbage. Why? Because in real life, it doesnt.

Now, my rebuttal out of the way, if anyone posts anymore math hammer crap in this thread I'm going to report the post for being off topic after being asked to stay on topic, and secondly for trolling, because all your doing now is getting personal and snotty (even with your "not trying to single you out" disclaimers).


As for grenade launchers: Why not make them Assault 2? Plasma already has the high AP high Strength issue covered, albeit with high cost and high risk, so making the GL's krak grenades AP3 would relegate plasma solely to anti-Termi/MC. Another shot lets it take on hordes more effective (2 frags would be a lot more points efficient than one, which is barely better than another lasgun), and would give you 2 krak-strength shots against MEQs so you can weigh them down with weight of fire.

I dont think thats a good solution, as attractive as it sounds. With the rumored changes to blast template rules, it could get pretty cumbersome when you got a list with 20 of them in it. I think perhaps a boost to Frag strength up to 4 would actually be perfect. Maybe even and AP6. Sure AP6 doesnt do much agaisnt most lists, but for standard Orks and Nids it would be a buff, which IMHO, is the really the targets the weapon was made for.

Bloodknight
29-01-2008, 16:24
With the rumored changes to blast template rules, it could get pretty cumbersome when you got a list with 20 of them in it.

That's not our problem, really. If that adds maybe 10 minutes to the game and makes Guard better, I won't care. Playing IG is not about saving 5 minutes or painting 10 soldiers more or less, that's what the Marines are there for. IG is a connoisseur's army and I will surely connoitre dropping a dozen blast markers on the enemy army. And if the no-partials rule comes into fruition I will drop even more of them, because then mortar barrages and frag missiles will be finally worthwhile ;).


I'm going to report...for trolling, because all your doing now is getting personal and snotty.

That's just bad form and won't serve you well, I think. :(

catbarf
29-01-2008, 16:43
Maybe in your fantasy world, but not in the world of reality. Luck is simply the term we use to describe it when things dont add up to your fantasy everything follows a average of math garbage. Why? Because in real life, it doesnt.

Actually, everything in real life does. How do you think casinos make money? They use probability to ensure that they will win more often than they lose. Lottery? Stacked so that probability dictates that a lot more people lose more than they win.

Now, would you say that if you had twenty guardsmen fire lasguns, that around 10 of the 20 shots would hit? Why? It's math you're using to figure that out. So 'garbage' hardly applies.

There is absolutely nothing you could possibly roll that would make the math wrong. If you roll all sixes, that was a statistically anomalous but entirely possible result. You attribute luck to it because it was very unlikely to happen. It is entirely possible, just not likely.

You still have not seemed to realize that nobody is saying that math can tell you what you're going to get. The rolls are almost never the averages. But they do show the general trend of the rolls. Arguing that math is wrong because you don't always roll the average is chasing shadows.


Now, my rebuttal out of the way, if anyone posts anymore math hammer crap in this thread I'm going to report the post for being off topic after being asked to stay on topic, and secondly for trolling, because all your doing now is getting personal and snotty (even with your "not trying to single you out" disclaimers).

That's just petty. If anything, dragging it back up and threatening people involved seems like trolling and derailing.

Not to mention that math is going to come up, because when people argue over the effectiveness of certain units math is the easiest way to determine who's right.


I dont think thats a good solution, as attractive as it sounds. With the rumored changes to blast template rules, it could get pretty cumbersome when you got a list with 20 of them in it. I think perhaps a boost to Frag strength up to 4 would actually be perfect. Maybe even and AP6. Sure AP6 doesnt do much agaisnt most lists, but for standard Orks and Nids it would be a buff, which IMHO, is the really the targets the weapon was made for.

The Frag grenade is getting a boost already, so it's Krak grenades that need improvement. Higher S and AP are right out, else they become too much like Plasma weaponry. So, rate of fire would be an easy balance.

t-tauri
29-01-2008, 18:15
Please take the Math-hammer vs experience debate to it's own thread. Any further responses on that topic here will be removed. Please keep it to a guard wish-list, please.

Please debate with respect for the other side.

Lord Cook
29-01-2008, 19:16
I don't think that Ap3 would be problematic for the grenade launcher. I know it's important to keep a clear differentiation with regards to special weapons, but the plasma gun would still have a clear role in tackling monstrous creatures and terminators. But if the grenade launcher had Ap3, it would allow it to tackle marines and necrons with reasonable success, and that would widen the variety of weapons used in most guard armies. Which IMO is a problem we have now, with the plasma gun being too much of a 'no-brainer' for many players, simply because it's the only special we have that can pierce power armour.


Please debate with respect for the other side.

I thought we were. Well, some of us anyway.

Bloodknight
29-01-2008, 19:34
THX for re-opening.

@Lord Cook: I am not sure if AP3 would cut it - one might as well go the whole way to AP2 (ie take a plasmagun) to be able to kill anything reliably instead of bouncing off of those 2+ creatures, unless the gun was significantly cheaper than the plasmagun or had a higher rate of fire at long range, for example Assault 2 24".

I guess it will stay the nobrainer it's been for years and making it more expensive will not help. I haven't seen a decrease in plasma in the newer Marine codices where it went quite expensive .

Toschenko
29-01-2008, 19:38
Well I think capturing table quarters or mission objectives will be the task of our infantry squad or command squad inside it's cheaper and shinier chimera while the greatest part of the company will still be stationary most of the turns ( unless you play AC and the ordinance may still shot after the vehicle moved ).

Even if chimera's side armour will be set to 11, it's not going to be an unkillable tank... pretty much every anti-tank weapon can pierce its front armour and, while with the new damage table it's going to be more survivable, the transported T3 AS5+ infantry is going to be a lot more worried by a "vehicle destroyed" roll... while I can see armoured fist squads being more usable (and that's a good thing,but the designers really need to take out the silly 1 per infantry platoon limitation), I'd always better rely on the more numerous footslogging infantry to hold objectives in a game.

Just my humble opinion ;),

Toschenko

Angelus Mortis
29-01-2008, 19:49
Even if chimera's side armour will be set to 11, it's not going to be an unkillable tank... pretty much every anti-tank weapon can pierce its front armour and, while with the new damage table it's going to be more survivable, the transported T3 AS5+ infantry is going to be a lot more worried by a "vehicle destroyed" roll... while I can see armoured fist squads being more usable (and that's a good thing,but the designers really need to take out the silly 1 per infantry platoon limitation), I'd always better rely on the more numerous footslogging infantry to hold objectives in a game.

Just my humble opinion ;),

Toschenko

I agree about the side armor, but just wanted to add that its a good idea just so that you wont see it getting popped by bolters from 3/4 of its sides. Its supposed to be an armored transport with guns, and therefore should not be susceptable to one of the most common basic infantry weapons in the game as much as it currently is. You know, I could even go as far as to make it 12/12/10, but if thats the case the points may need to stay as they are as it would be a lot more formidable.

On a side note, I get the feeling you and I view IG very similarly. Do I need to break out the Psychic Hood to get you to stop reading my mind? :p

xibo
29-01-2008, 20:11
What I was thinking about is that if the chimera is lowered to 50 points with only ML, and the squad inside of it is another ~50 points ( or ~35 if it's a command squad ), why not sneak from occluder to occluder and accept that chimera and the squad inside of it will do little or no damage at all by trying to avoid LoS to most enemies?
then, if a single marine squad can see the chimera it will be much harder for them to take it out since their bolters don't penetrate our side armour and the lascannon/plasgun each need to roll +1

And if the 5th edition makes our command platoon's command squad or high command invisible behind some other squads again we can afford to sacrifice a command squad for taking an objective ( buying chimera as alternative to bumping 50 points into a medic and some special weapons ).

Toschenko
29-01-2008, 20:38
What I was thinking about is that if the chimera is lowered to 50 points with only ML, and the squad inside of it is another ~50 points ( or ~35 if it's a command squad ), why not sneak from occluder to occluder and accept that chimera and the squad inside of it will do little or no damage at all by trying to avoid LoS to most enemies?
then, if a single marine squad can see the chimera it will be much harder for them to take it out since their bolters don't penetrate our side armour and the lascannon/plasgun each need to roll +1

And if the 5th edition makes our command platoon's command squad or high command invisible behind some other squads again we can afford to sacrifice a command squad for taking an objective ( buying chimera as alternative to bumping 50 points into a medic and some special weapons ).

Blocking LOS would effectively become a viable option with a cheaper chimera, but it would be no more resilient than a rhino in this role (assuming that you give your enemy the side, for occluding more LOS). However, the biggest strenght of the guard lies in its shooting, so I don't know if this would be a tactic as effective as it is when used by marines with rhinos.

I see your point, but I've still some doubt on the "taking objectives" issue: a platoon command squad may always grab one, but it's really able to hold it until game ends? I'd rather sit 20-30 guardsmen on it than just an officer with 4 fellows and a (probably already wrecked) chimera. My suggestion for a S4 shot when not moving came from these considerations... but I usually don't sit & shoot even with the actual ruleset, so I'm not probably the best playtester for this rule :p

@Angelus Mortis: turn off your psychic hood, I learned all I know from the booklet of the perfect guardsman (and many lost games)

Toschenko

Johnnyfrej
29-01-2008, 22:11
This just hit me today, Tank-Hunting for antiarmor squads. The option is if you take an antiarmor support squad for HQ or a HWT with antiarmor squads you can choose to pay an extra 15 points to give them tank-hunting. I figure hey, if Dev squads and Fire Dragons can get tank-hunting why not Guardsmen? You could justify it as they are veteran heavy weapon specialists that have learned where the best spot to shoot the ML or Lascannon is.
(for the record its 3points per marine for THing, with 6 Guardsmen its about 2.5points per guardsmen)

-Private Jon

Bloodknight
29-01-2008, 22:20
I think we will not get that. It seems they are phasing that rule out - and I would not take the SM codex as an example because that book was created under a different design paradigm and is not much younger than the IG codex. It also seems that they are trying to make tanks harder and handing out the tank hunter skill like cookies would be quite counterproductive.

xibo
29-01-2008, 22:24
@bloodknight
... furthermore missile launchers and lascannons have developed to be anti-infantry weapons in this game, while railguns and assault cannons are the anti tank weapons ( ironically IG doesn't get either of those ).

LordJose
29-01-2008, 22:40
I do disagree with you on Ratlings though - the reason for their existence is the same as for Ogryns. They aren't hobbits, they're Ratlings. And yes, they move through space, just like Space Orcs with trucks and Space Elves with Elf mortars and Space Knights with knightly Kaboom guns do.

ok, maybe you are right, are "another" fantasy race in space, just like wh40k is. But the miniatures are REALLY ugly

Grenade launchers are cool, full point. Combi laser grenade launcher are cooler. (ok, lets start explaining). Grenade launcher is IIRC an "Imperial Guard only" weapon like the mortar (we will talk about that). I really like its rules, F6 (2+ to wound vs infantry) FP4 (deadly against non power armored beings, or non monsters) or F3 FP6 (you can... roll and have fun trying to kill something) assault 1 60cm... (24") thats a lot for a S6 assault weapon that can be equiped up to 4 in command squads, up to 1 in infantry squads, up to 2-3 in elite HP4 squads. ITS A GOOD WEAPON. (with the rumored new rules it will be better when used in frag mode)

There is a lot of power armored armies out there and this weapon do no perform as well as other lower armor penetration weapons that have shorter range or rapid fire. The diference between a grenade launcher cost, and a plasmagun is like 2 points, and a plasma gun kills stuff dead (do this so well you can kill 3 creatures with 2 shots...).

So...whats the point? Too expensive compared with plasma or melta (that can instadeath T4 guys). It should be cheaper. Why do you think that is included in plastic in normal infantry box with flamethrower and plasma/melta being metal miniatures... Imagine the oposite, plasma melta in plastic, flamethrower with grenadelauncher in metal...

Mortar... I said grenade launcher was cool ... but mortar... is GREAT. Imagine those aliens, mutants, heretics... running through the battlefield and the looking at the sky and crying something (usually translated as INCOMIIING) after that: explosions, sharpnel cutting through the air, members of the squad asking for help, or crying in pain, because have been wounded in arms or legs (great isnt it?) well...NOT, forget all of this, because in wh40k this is never going to happen. Unnacurate (is correct this word?) small blast, near all armies having antifrag or better weapons, pinning being so... ... poor? maybe autopinning if killing at least one member or mortar support squads using only one big blast with -2 modifier to pinning tests... a really GREAT weapon, with really poor rules

Firaxin
29-01-2008, 22:47
What about AV 13/11/10 on the chimera, as well as all the vehicles based off its chasis(such as the basilisk--the hellhound would be 13/12/10 because its side armor is supposed to be improved beyond normal, and leaving it the same achieves this)? Its the same as a predator then, and it really would be a light tank. It would show off the toughness of guard armor, like it's supposed to be, and it will be a step towards appeasing Armored Company players who I'm sure will be dissapointed with the new codex. It would also emphasize Space Marine tanks as light, mobile vehicles meant for fast strikes, rather than basically the same as IG with better BS. I'd keep this chimera at 70pts though (with the hull mounted heavy bolter/flamer included in the cost, but you'd still have to buy the multilaser etc).

AllisterCaine
29-01-2008, 22:53
What about AV 13/11/10 on the chimera, as well as all the vehicles based off its chasis(such as the basilisk--the hellhound would be 13/12/10 because its side armor is supposed to be improved beyond normal, and leaving it the same achieves this)? Its the same as a predator then, and it really would be a light tank. It would show off the toughness of guard armor, like it's supposed to be, and it will be a step towards appeasing Armored Company players who I'm sure will be dissapointed with the new codex. It would also emphasize Space Marine tanks as light, mobile vehicles meant for fast strikes, rather than basically the same as IG with better BS. I'd keep this chimera at 70pts though (with the hull mounted heavy bolter/flamer included in the cost, but you'd still have to buy the multilaser etc).

I agree with you and it will be cool, but is it going to happen? NO. The idea of a true infantry fighting vehicle for the guard is awesome and fluffy, but GW is most likely not going to make the chimera a predator with a multilaser. Ill settle for 12/11/10; its enough.

Lord Cook
29-01-2008, 22:53
LordJose, sounds like you need to use heavy mortars. S6, Ap4, and uses the 5" template. With -1Ld to pinning.

Firaxin
29-01-2008, 23:00
I agree with you and it will be cool, but is it going to happen? NO. The idea of a true infantry fighting vehicle for the guard is awesome and fluffy, but GW is most likely not going to make the chimera a predator with a multilaser. Ill settle for 12/11/10; its enough.

Meh. Then again this is a 'what do you want done for guard' thread, not a 'what do you think they will do to guard' thread.

xibo
29-01-2008, 23:05
@LordJose:
Mortars ARE cool, Grenade Launchers are cool, too. It's just in game or terms they suck, but they are - in fluff - both really awesome.
Off: you are saying grenade launchers would shot 60cm... is that a GW given range or did you just convert it yourself?

AllisterCaine
29-01-2008, 23:09
LordJose, sounds like you need to use heavy mortars. S6, Ap4, and uses the 5" template. With -1Ld to pinning.

Mortars? Pinning? I didnt know it was possible to use it in the same universe.

xibo
29-01-2008, 23:15
Mortars? Pinning? I didnt know it was possible to use it in the same universe.

Umm... please reread the BGB entry for barrage weapons. Barrage weapons already cause pinning - IIRC it's even the mortar that is used as an example for barrage weapons.
Ordinance barage causes pinning with -1Ld, and the Griffon's heavy mortar is an ordinance barrage weapon.

Bunnahabhain
29-01-2008, 23:18
@LordJose:
Mortars ARE cool, Grenade Launchers are cool, too. It's just in game or terms they suck, but they are - in fluff - both really awesome.
Off: you are saying grenade launchers would shot 60cm... is that a GW given range or did you just convert it yourself?

Give he's using F (force)where most of use would use S (strength), I'd say he's french, and therefore GW had translated it for the country .

Lord Cook
29-01-2008, 23:31
and the Griffon's heavy mortar is an ordinance barrage weapon.

As it happens I was referring to heavy mortars on their own, from IA5, but your example is just as valid. They can both take the ridiculously broken infernus shells in any case. I reserve their use purely for 3 falcon eldar armies and asscannon spam marine lists. Guard can match anybody cheese for cheese.

Angelus Mortis
30-01-2008, 00:06
What about AV 13/11/10 on the chimera, as well as all the vehicles based off its chasis...

That wouldnt work at all. It would only be 1 AV off a Leman Russ and be almost the same as a Predator. Its supposed to be an APC with guns, not a main battle tank. I mean Hell, if your gonna go with that may as well make it AV 14 all around. :cheese: :wtf:

Elimrawne1982
30-01-2008, 00:13
Even if chimera's side armour will be set to 11, it's not going to be an unkillable tank... pretty much every anti-tank weapon can pierce its front armour and, while with the new damage table it's going to be more survivable, the transported T3 AS5+ infantry is going to be a lot more worried by a "vehicle destroyed" roll... while I can see armoured fist squads being more usable (and that's a good thing,but the designers really need to take out the silly 1 per infantry platoon limitation), I'd always better rely on the more numerous footslogging infantry to hold objectives in a game.


The bassic issue with the Chimera (beside the poor side armour) IMHO is it's hybrid status: You can use it as an APC, if you find something worth transporting (a different issue), but then you basically forgo the use of it's weaponry. Or, you can use it as a light tank at range - and not a bad one at that, though slightly overcosted - but then you pay for a transport capacity you don't use. I know the same thing goes for the Falcon, but is somewhat mitigated by the fact that it's fast to begin with, and very hard to kill.
So i think i would be nice if the new codex offered the choice to take either a bare-bones variant with just a heavy bolter (or a heavy stubber) for around 50 points, or a more beefy turreted one for 65 Points - both with side AV 11

Freak Ona Leash
30-01-2008, 00:16
That wouldnt work at all. It would only be 1 AV off a Leman Russ and be almost the same as a Predator. Its supposed to be an APC with guns, not a main battle tank. I mean Hell, if your gonna go with that may as well make it AV 14 all around. :cheese: :wtf:

And why can't APCs have heavy armor? Does it not stand to reason that you want as much armor as possible on the thing that will be carrying the troops?

Elimrawne1982
30-01-2008, 00:21
And why can't APCs have heavy armor? Does it not stand to reason that you want as much armor as possible on the thing that will be carrying the troops?

Yes, but you'll also want it to be big enough to fit a few people, and yet not so heavy that you won't be able to actually get it to anywhere

Gensuke626
30-01-2008, 00:24
And why can't APCs have heavy armor? Does it not stand to reason that you want as much armor as possible on the thing that will be carrying the troops?

It depends. On a Land Raider...yeah, heavy armor is great because it's basically a Seige/Line breaking transport designed to get a Forlorn Hope or a Terminator squad into the enemy lines with as few casualties as possible so they can cause the most damage possible.

On the other hand, the Chimera is like the Rhino...it fills the army's need for what is supposed to be a light-Rapid Response APC. It's job is not to go busting into a gunline to cause havoc...but rather to get a squad into position as quickly as possible in relative safety (Ie, they don't have to worry about small arms fire for the most part.). Thought of in this way, it serves to reason that a Chimera would be a lightly armored vehicle, it's designed to withstand most forms of small arms fire, while being able to provide covering fire for it's squad while they set up their heavy weapons.

Freak Ona Leash
30-01-2008, 00:24
Yes, but you'll also want it to be big enough to fit a few people, and yet not so heavy that you won't be able to actually get it to anywhere

That is true. But really, 13/11/10 for a Chimera isn't out of the realm of reason, in my eyes. Maybe because I',m beginnig to play Guard...but still. Nyah! ^_^

xibo
30-01-2008, 00:25
And why can't APCs have heavy armor? Does it not stand to reason that you want as much armor as possible on the thing that will be carrying the troops?
An APC can be heavily armoured, but it would make marines be annoyed if IG would get a transport which is better then their land raider ( An IG AV14 transport with only a multilaser as weapon system would most probably be about 120-150 points expensive and therefore the army would not have to rely on it dealing alot of damage ( read doesn't need to do any damage at all as it's only 3 Str6Ap6 shots anyway ) allowing us to move at full speed while sailours need their raiders to shoot their las or asscannons and therefore are slower and worse transport )

Freak Ona Leash
30-01-2008, 00:27
I'm not talking about giving the guard an AV14 transport. Though, it would be cool....wait, no! I just want the Chimera to be better armored.

Angelus Mortis
30-01-2008, 02:20
Yes, but you'll also want it to be big enough to fit a few people, and yet not so heavy that you won't be able to actually get it to anywhere

That and the more armor you put on it the more expensive it is. Why else do you think the IG doesnt use Land Raiders for APCs? Besides, its a balance issue as well.

Gensuke626
30-01-2008, 02:36
That and the more armor you put on it the more expensive it is. Why else do you think the IG doesnt use Land Raiders for APCs? Besides, its a balance issue as well.

I figured that LRs weren't used because they're hard to make and the tech Adepts of Mars only want to give them to the Marines...who will spend enough time keeping them in good working order...

My question is "Why can't they adapt a Leman Russ" to be a Transport of some sort?"

Ekranoplan
30-01-2008, 02:38
If they still have the Cybernetic Augmentation doctrine, or some equivalent, it should grant a 4+ Feel No Pain. Considering guard are insta killed with str 6 weapons, and assuming it would be reasonably priced, it should be a nice balanced addition.

Outlaw289
30-01-2008, 02:56
Just make Chimeras AV12 and cheap. They're obviously influenced by BMPs so they shouldn't be super-armored leviathans.

kdh88
30-01-2008, 03:38
I figured that LRs weren't used because they're hard to make and the tech Adepts of Mars only want to give them to the Marines...who will spend enough time keeping them in good working order...

My question is "Why can't they adapt a Leman Russ" to be a Transport of some sort?"

Presumably the same reasons that Britain and the US haven't adopted the Challenger or Abrams to be transports of some sort.

Interestingly the Isreali Merkeva MBT does have a sort of ad-hoc transport capacity (although it has to sacrifice much of its ammunition load to use it), so it may not be entirely implausible.

Edit: Apparently the algorithim thinks that a word meaning improvised should actually be related to the spikey guys of WHF.

Epicenter
30-01-2008, 03:48
The issues of the Chimera are twofold and sort of pull the Chimera in two opposite directions:

First is the ineffectiveness of the cargo - the normal Guardsman squad just isn't worth putting into a Chimera. Having ten 3-statline guys with a 5+ armorsave carrying lasguns and special weapon just isn't worth the points of a Chimera to ferry them around. Guardsmen are right now really only effective with massed shooting. Expensive transports eat into that total of men so you end up with maybe 33% more transports with men inside them as a Space Marine army organized similarly (say like 6 Chimera with men inside them as opposed to Marines with 4). Unfortunately, IG squads are pretty ineffective - especially without a heavy weapon and you need about twice as many IG to equal the shooting a single Marine squad (that's being liberal, it's probably more like 2.5x). Regardless, it doesn't change the basic problem: You'd need like 8-10 Chimera with IG inside of it to equal the effectiveness of like 4 Rhinos with Marines in it (assuming 10 man squads of Marines in Rhinos).

The ineffectiveness of a single squad of IG brings up the Chimera's other mission: Fire support. Unlike the Rhino which is basically a disposable skateboard to get Marines close to their enemies for assault or close-in shooting (or away from their enemies so they can shoot some more) so the storm bolter is basically garnish, the Chimera also has the role of supporting the IG squad inside with heavy weapons support. Unfortunately, as the Chimera isn't any better armored than a disposable skateboard (the Rhino), it fails miserably at this task.

One of two, preferably both, have to be addressed before the Chimera becomes a better vehicle.

kdh88 - the Russians have adapted a T-55 chassis to be a well-armored APC for use in urban warfare. It's not a frontline tank anymore, but I guess the Russians got fed up with their thin-skinned APCs getting popped constantly by rockets during the Chechen war.