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View Full Version : Shoota boys outperform firewarriors at crakin' da kanmen...



xibo
27-01-2008, 00:37
Ork dakkaboys have 2 shots bs2 strength 4...
Tau firewarriors have 1 shot bs3 strength 5( carbine )...

both are statistacaly same effective against kanmen which are 90% of what will be shot after... dakkaboys cost 6 points (iirc), fw cost 10... so you get much more dakka out of da boys then from the fishheads o_O

TheMav80
27-01-2008, 00:38
Yeah...but uh...the Carbine is pinning....

xibo
27-01-2008, 00:41
Yeah...but uh...the Carbine is pinning....
Yay, kanmen have Ld10 or fearless... especially the hoppaboys with their chaplain who want to be killed first have second.

Marius Xerxes
27-01-2008, 00:43
Kanmen and hoppaboys? Not up on the lingo/language barrier here.

mongoosedog300
27-01-2008, 00:46
Kanmen and hoppaboys? Not up on the lingo/language barrier here.

I assume he's talking about marines, and assault marines lead by a chappy :p

xibo
27-01-2008, 00:46
Kanmen and hoppaboys? Not up on the lingo/language barrier here.

Kanmen = 'men' ( or space seamen, space sailours ) in cans ( power armours ). I don't know how the english-speaking orks ( only have german codex ) refered to marines in the good old days and suppose it was something like that.
hoppaboys = jetpacked infantry.

Rhamag
27-01-2008, 00:47
Aren't the Tau guns much longer ranged than 18"? Means the boyz have to get into gauss range before they can shoot. And the Tau have better armour.

EDIT: Space Marines = Beakies

'cos the old armour has the pointed face helmets, like a beak.

And Necrons = Tinboyz, Tau = Fish 'Eds., Eldar = Pansies and Chaos = Spikey Boyz.

xibo
27-01-2008, 00:56
The fish'eads pulse carbine ( free swap against pulse rifles ) have only 18" of range but are assault 1 rather then rapid fire. As was said they also cause pinning, but against Ld10 of the beakies it's not really that effective.

Rhamag
27-01-2008, 01:04
Ah I see. Thanks for the info. I don't play against Tau often. Against the bolter fire though, the Tau come out better I think.

Still, I play Orks as my main army and have just built 48 shoota boyz so I'm definitely on your side. Orks don't need armour anyway, and they certainly beat the Tau when it comes down to hand-to-hand beakie-krumpin'.

zoodog
27-01-2008, 01:12
the number of pulse carbines I've seen used is quite limited and mostly not on FireWarriors so i don't think this is the best comparison. I think the rapid fire pulse rifle beats the shooter and the tau are seldom known for wanting to charge anyway.

Misfratz
27-01-2008, 01:14
It's not a fair comparison. Why not compare to fire warriors with the rifles? Who get two shots in rapid fire range and a long range of 30 inches.

Perhaps because it would invalidate your point?

Also, sigh, I suspect that your "statistics" are simply looking at the "mean effectiveness" of the weapon options. Come back to me when every set of dice rolls in one of your games comes up with the mean result. Thanks.

This distinction is crucial in this game, because it is a game of contingencies. If the Orks are unlucky to fall well below their "mean effectiveness", this has a knock-on effect of leaving a greater number of their enemy left standing to fight back (not that the Orks mind, particularly, but it affects the course of the battle).

Battōsai
27-01-2008, 01:39
Also, sigh, I suspect that your "statistics" are simply looking at the "mean effectiveness" of the weapon options.

well the definition of a statistic is "A numerical value, such as standard deviation or MEAN, that characterizes the sample or population from which it was derived."
So i hope thats what he is doing. I agree that if he were to compare the effectiveness of a dakkaboy to a pulse rifle armed fire warrior things would be different, and it would make more sense as people do tend to use the pulse rifle over the pulse carbine. But the fact is he didn't. He is just pointing out that based on stastical effectiveness a dakkaboy will be more effective against a marine than a carbine armed firewarrior.

Outlaw289
27-01-2008, 01:42
But firewarriors would probably be better against a unit of Guardsmen. And they can hit on a 2+ if the unit was hit by a Markerlight, Oh, and the Orks don't have JSJ plasma firing crisis suits, the Orks can't pull a "fish of fury" etc...

You can't just look at two units and compare them. You have to see how the rest of the army works with them. This is like saying the Ork is better at killing Marines than an IG Veteran, who costs more than the Ork shootaboy, but leaving out the fact the IG unit can buy up to four plasma weapons and a missile launcher.

xibo
27-01-2008, 01:45
average dice results *should* be the only things to consider... just because you roll especially many ones on your terminator armour saves doesn't mean terminator armours are worse then power armours, right?

...

if you move your firewarriors into rapid fire range with beakie hoppaboys in an average LoS-Occluded table you are effectively sacrificing them as ON AVERAGE you kill like 3 beaky boys in rapid fire with 12 FW...
... and on an average LoS-Occluded table your 30" FW range isn't going to be that much more effective because the hoppaboys are deployed behind occluders anyway unless they are being total posers / braindead.

EDIT:
@outlaw:
Fish of Fury is THE number one ineffective tactic against marines. You need 2 fishloads of warriors AND 4 successfull markers to kill 10 marines with it...
If the guardsmen are in cover ( what at least mine usually are in games against tau ) the firewarriors are in fact worse then dakkaboys on a per-model basis.
The IG Vet can as you say rather 'easy' kill a marine in shooting which is his speciallity, while the ork is same effective as the FW in shooting ( which is FW's speciallity ) on beakies while still being alot more effective in beating him in CC then the FW ( Well more or less everything other then guardians, guardsmen and grots are better then firewarriors in CC ) ...
Furthermore I'm not saying Tau are worse to beat SM with then Orks but rather FW are worse to shoot beakies down then shootaboys.

Gensuke626
27-01-2008, 01:50
Ork dakkaboys have 2 shots bs2 strength 4...
Tau firewarriors have 1 shot bs3 strength 5( carbine )...

both are statistacaly same effective against kanmen which are 90% of what will be shot after... dakkaboys cost 6 points (iirc), fw cost 10... so you get much more dakka out of da boys then from the fishheads o_O

So...let's look at some big numbers, shall we? 60 pts.

6 Fire Warriors or
10 Boyz

Let's give the Fire Warriors 2x4s (Pulse Rifles) cause let's face it, Fish 'eads are smarter than that when fighting anyone.

so at 30" (Max Rifle Range)
FW = 6 shots -> 3 Hits -> 2 wounds -> .667 failed saves/dead beekies
OB = 0 Shots . . . Enough said

at 18" (Max Shoota Range)
FW = 6 shots -> 3 Hits -> 2 wounds -> .667 failed saves/dead beekies
OB = 20 shots -> 6.667 Hits -> 3.333 wounds -> 1.111 failed saves/dead beekies

At 12" (Rapid Fire range)
FW = 12 shots -> 6 Hits -> 4 wounds-> 1.333 failed saves/dead beekies
OB = 20 shots -> 6.667 Hits -> 3.333 wounds -> 1.111 failed saves/dead beekies

So we can see that beyond 18" and under 12", the Tau outshoot the Orks. only in that 13-18" range band do the Shoota Boyz out perform the Tau.

In game it is Possible to outshoot the tau under 12" as the orks have more shots, but at the same time, it is also possible that orks will miss everything, so...

and just for the rebound...5 beekies rapid fire at said units.
FW = 6.667 Hits -> 4.444 Wounds -> 2.222 Dead FW
OB = 6.667 Hits -> 3.333 wounds -> 3.333 Dead Orkz

So, using math as a rough guide we can see that Tau are much more resilient to recieving fire. Their Carapace armor gives them a level of protection that most orks can only dream of (The exception being Ard boyz)

So, I say you are wrong. Shoota Boyz don't outperform Fire Warriors.

But I'd like to take this time to say 2 things.

1. Mathhammer is great for studying trends in games, but can never EVER accurately predict any battlefield condition that we can't predict ourselves.
2. Comparing units in a vaccum never produces accurate results. Truely, the only way for someone to prove this is to play several games of 40k and note down wether FW or Ork Shoota Boyz have a greater ratio of VPs lost to VPs earned through kills.

We can't do straight who can kill more, afterall the two units were built on different principles. The Ork is obviously offensive and meant to get up close and cause massive damage, his only protection being his tough hide and his mates all around him. Meanwhile the Firewarrior is designed to sit back and pound enemies from afar with their pulse rifles and recieve little return fire...or pull Fish of Fury tactics to try to wipe out whole swathes of enemy.


edit-

if you move your firewarriors into rapid fire range with beakie hoppaboys in an average LoS-Occluded table you are effectively sacrificing them as ON AVERAGE you kill like 3 beaky boys in rapid fire with 12 FW...


Excuse me....did you say "If I move my Firewarriors"

Seriously...you expect me to consider a Firewarrior team to be something that MOVES to kill an enemy? No...No NO NO! Firewarriors sit in cover and hammer down foes that approach them! If you're moving firewarriors without a Devilfish then I know why you're having problems...

but before I go...
Fish of Fury Mathhammer!
12 Fire Warriors 6 with Carbines To allow for Maximum range effectiveness.

shooting at Marines
21 BS 3 S5 shots... 10.5 hits...7 wounds...2.333 Failed Saves
+ 2 BS2 TL S5 Shots... 1.333 hits... .889 wounds... .297 Failed saves.

Total 2.63 failed saves average. on a 10 man squad I need to inflict 25% casualties...so the fish of fury has a dead average chance of forcing a Morale check as Well as a pinning check. on top of that, while the Devilfish doesn't block LoS to the FWs, it does also force a Target Priority check. As unlikely as it is, the marines may fail 1 of these 3 Ld checks, allowing the Tau to survive.

And before you bring in the subject of assault marines with a chappy, let's face it. Not Everyone runs that combo. and you'd use something else to deal with a Chaplain and Assault Marine teamup. Were I running Tau...that'd be target number 1 for an Ionhead.

catbarf
27-01-2008, 01:53
average dice results *should* be the only things to consider... just because you roll especially many ones on your terminator armour saves doesn't mean terminator armours are worse then power armours, right?

You don't know what you're talking about here. The averages are not what you should be considering. The statistical deviation is.

Gensuke626
27-01-2008, 02:08
You don't know what you're talking about here. The averages are not what you should be considering. The statistical deviation is.

You don't know what you're talking about. The statictical deviation is not what you should be considering. How prejudiced OP is against Tau is!:eek:

catbarf
27-01-2008, 02:34
You don't know what you're talking about. The statictical deviation is not what you should be considering. How prejudiced OP is against Tau is!:eek:

Averages, while useful, cannot be used to determine shooting efficiency. The curve of the graph as determined by the statistical deviation is used to determine the mode of the possible results, from which we can draw the most likely round of shooting.

xibo
27-01-2008, 03:05
You don't know what you're talking about. The statictical deviation is not what you should be considering. How prejudiced OP is against Tau is!:eek:

Ridiculous enough i even play them :cries:
And I am fully aware how FoF runns, and also what it is good against which is not power armoured Ld10 models alias MeQ as you NEED two fishes for it because at a single fish the surviving marines just walk around the fish ( the two drones of the devilfish have to keep in 2" formation which means you cannot put them on each side of the fish to make it 4" broader, alowing the marines to walk around the the other side of the fish ).

I wasn't posting this behcauze tau are tehh weeak, but rather because i thought it was funny that the shootymost race's basic squad could be outperformed by a basic squad of the race famous for not being shooty ( khorne isn't a race ). I know tau would under any halfway (or quarterway)-normal situation be able to outshoot orks no matter what weapon the FWs have if the orks try to stand and shoot with them; but the point was shooting on advancing beakies, and usually there's also not only a single squad of beakies that advances but multiple so you have to devote hammerheads ion cannons/railguns and crisis fire to the one you consider most dangerous while your badly deployed (of cause one never deploys stuff on bad positions...) squad of FW on the other end of the table is facing a marien squad on its own...

catbarf
27-01-2008, 03:45
Ridiculous enough i even play them :cries:
And I am fully aware how FoF runns, and also what it is good against which is not power armoured Ld10 models alias MeQ as you NEED two fishes for it because at a single fish the surviving marines just walk around the fish ( the two drones of the devilfish have to keep in 2" formation which means you cannot put them on each side of the fish to make it 4" broader, alowing the marines to walk around the the other side of the fish ).

I wasn't posting this behcauze tau are tehh weeak, but rather because i thought it was funny that the shootymost race's basic squad could be outperformed by a basic squad of the race famous for not being shooty ( khorne isn't a race ). I know tau would under any halfway (or quarterway)-normal situation be able to outshoot orks no matter what weapon the FWs have if the orks try to stand and shoot with them; but the point was shooting on advancing beakies, and usually there's also not only a single squad of beakies that advances but multiple so you have to devote hammerheads ion cannons/railguns and crisis fire to the one you consider most dangerous while your badly deployed (of cause one never deploys stuff on bad positions...) squad of FW on the other end of the table is facing a marien squad on its own...

It is ridiculous that Orks can outshoot Tau and cost the same as Guardsmen. This isn't power creep, this is power-fifty-yard-dash.

By the way, whatever gave you the idea that Khorne isn't shooty? Khorne loves big guns.

Varath- Lord Impaler
27-01-2008, 06:58
hmmm.

12 firewarriors- 120 points
vs 20 Guardsmen- 120 points

30"- 6 hits, 4 wounds- 4 dead
30" - cant shoot

24"- 6 hits, 4 wounds- 4 dead
24"- 10 hits- 5 wounds- 2.5 dead

12"- 12 hits- 9 wounds- 9 dead
12"- 20 hits- 10 wounds- 5 dead

Gah...poor guardsmen.

hehehe, to throw it out there, give 1 guardsmen a heavy bolter

30"- 12 shots- 6 hits, 4 wounds- 4 dead
30"- Cant shoot
Bolter- 3 shots- 1.5 hits, 1 wound- 1 dead

24"- 12 shots- 6 hits, 4 wounds- 4 dead
24" 19 shots- 9.5 hits- 4.75 wounds- 2.33 dead
Bolter- 3 shots- 1.5 hits, 1 wound- 1 dead

12"- 24 shots- 12 hits- 9 wounds- 9 dead
12"- 38 shots- 19 hits- 9.5 wounds- 4.75 dead
Bolter- 3 shots- 1.5 hits, 1 wound- 1 dead

Hmmm....still outclassed, but gaining a kill each turn

Baaltharus
27-01-2008, 08:36
The fish'eads pulse carbine ( free swap against pulse rifles ) have only 18" of range but are assault 1 rather then rapid fire. As was said they also cause pinning, but against Ld10 of the beakies it's not really that effective.

Marines don't have ld 10, they have ld 9. Its probably different for DA but as a BA player I never use a Company Commander.

Moostikal The Confused
27-01-2008, 09:19
so its come to mathhammer. May i suggest we try not actin like you've been 'hitontheheadwitha'Hammer. I say this because tau would only ever be deployed in the open be a ***** and a skwad of 10 orks are gonna be in a trukk or, in a skad of 20+. The shootas are for makin a noise an maybe poppin a beakieboy further away than normal but really are just there to give theboyz somethin to do while on there way to krump em.

BTW i love orks that much is true but i like the tau fluff. Big fancy guns, advanced shooty stuff for the fws but, they can't hit a barn door, while in a barn that just happens to be full of barn doors, with the door closed. Its a shame, fluff dictates that they should be bs4 or 5. But all power to the balance/blander!!

Johnnyfrej
28-01-2008, 02:19
And Necrons = Tinboyz, Tau = Fish 'Eds., Eldar = Pansies and Chaos = Spikey Boyz.
You forgot Imperial Guard ;)
"What? More Hummiez?! I thought I just killed... gah!" *shot in the face*

Captain Micha
28-01-2008, 03:05
Ork dakkaboys have 2 shots bs2 strength 4...
Tau firewarriors have 1 shot bs3 strength 5( carbine )...

both are statistacaly same effective against kanmen which are 90% of what will be shot after... dakkaboys cost 6 points (iirc), fw cost 10... so you get much more dakka out of da boys then from the fishheads o_O

and why are you using that craptastic weapon? (carbine)

azimaith
28-01-2008, 03:23
Despite firewarriors having better armor and basic leadership, I don't think their firepower is sufficient to really warrant their poor other stats. I personally always thought that pulse carbines should be assault 2.

I remember when I said that someone said: "Are you crazy! That would make it better than any assault weapon in the game! GW would never do that!"

Whose laughing now! Muhuahahhaha.

Seriously though, tau firewarriors are a bit lackluster on their own. I'd really love to see them with some mean firepower to justify them for themselves rather than for FOC filling.

Snipafist
28-01-2008, 04:02
Wait, let me see if I understand this:
3 Firewarriors @30 points get 6 shots and 3 hits at S5 - 2 wounds against T4.
5 Shoota boyz @ 30 points get 10 shots and 3.34 hits at S4 - 5/3 wounds against T4.

This is assuming 12" range, of course, but I've yet to see firewarriors (fielded competently) without a transport. This isn't to say fire warriors are amazingly well-priced, but they do better than shootaboyz within this range, get to shoot from 30"-18.1" where the shootaboyz can't as well. The only realm in which the shootaboyz are superior is the 12.1"-18" range.