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Mouchliazo
28-01-2008, 12:35
When a character charges out of a unit, can the unit then move? I seem to recall that it can't but I can't find anything about it in the BRB. Has it changed for 7th Ed.? Thanks.

lparigi34
28-01-2008, 12:45
Sure the unit can move in the remaining movements sub-phase, but it cannot charge.

If the unit charges, the character will be bound by the declaration and must stay and move with the unit itself.

Tutore
28-01-2008, 21:31
There are no big changes regarding this issue. If the character calls a lone charge, its unit cannot charge, even if the character fails to do it. If the unit calls a charge, then the character MUST charge inside the unit.

Milgram
29-01-2008, 12:04
so... wouldn't this be a nice little trick to keep your frenzy units from charging?

theunwantedbeing
29-01-2008, 12:16
The character must charge with a unit if it declares a charge, so the only way a character can charge out of a frenzied unit is if there is nothing in range of the frenzied unit, and he has a larger charge range than the frenzied unit has.

Milgram
29-01-2008, 13:03
The character must charge with a unit if it declares a charge, so the only way a character can charge out of a frenzied unit is if there is nothing in range of the frenzied unit, and he has a larger charge range than the frenzied unit has.

uhm... but the frenzied unit declares its charge after all other charges are declared. therefore the characters charge declaration MUST be before the frenzied unit may declare anything. and - we remember from above - if a character charges out of an unit, that unit may not declare a charge.

seems legit to me.

theunwantedbeing
29-01-2008, 13:21
page 52, frenzied units must charge if in charge range.
page 73, character's must charge with a unit if the unit declares a charge.

Seems to back my way rather than your own.....

T10
29-01-2008, 13:46
uhm... but the frenzied unit declares its charge after all other charges are declared. therefore the characters charge declaration MUST be before the frenzied unit may declare anything. and - we remember from above - if a character charges out of an unit, that unit may not declare a charge.

seems legit to me.

A unit and it's character cannot charge different targets at the same time. This isn't so much a rule in itself as a consequence of how the rules for charging units and the rules for characters leaving units work with each other.

The character may declare a charge separate from whatever the unit is going to do, but if the unit also declares a charge then the character's charge is effectively cancelled.


-T10

DeathlessDraich
29-01-2008, 17:20
page 52, frenzied units must charge if in charge range.
page 73, character's must charge with a unit if the unit declares a charge.
.

You missed the point Milgram is making which is a valid query.



The character may declare a charge separate from whatever the unit is going to do, but if the unit also declares a charge then the character's charge is effectively cancelled.
-T10

This sounds like a charge declaration negating a previous charge declaration unless you have similarly misconstrued Milgram's query.

There are 2 approaches to his query:

1) Character (C), who is not Frenzied, joins Frenzied unit (F).
During charge declarations, character (C) is the first to declare a charge followed by other units.
When distances are then measured, it is found that (F) is within charge range of an enemy unit, (the same as that charged by (C) or a different unit).

Can (F) not declare a charge or must it?

My answer is - It must declare a charge - pg 52.
This creates the unique case of a character and the unit it is with charging separately.

2) Character (C), who is not Frenzied, joins Frenzied unit (F).
Character (C) cannot declare charges until the charge distances are measured for Frenzied units - Perhaps this is your approach T10?

I'm not happy with (2) as the unit is Frenzied but the character is not. Therefore the character is at liberty to declare charges during charge declarations.

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-01-2008, 19:02
It's simple really. If the unit a character is in declares a charge for any reason, any seperate charge the character have declared is cancelled and he is carried along with the unit.

T10
29-01-2008, 22:52
A unit's charge trumps the character's charge in all cases.

1. Neither character nor unit is Frenzied. If the unit does not charge the character is free to leave and may declare a charge all on his lonesome.

2. Character and unit are both Frenzied: Since the unit will be declaring a charge the character is compelled to join them.

3. Character is Frenzied, unit is not: The unit declares it's charge before the character is compelled to do so. This just means you know wether or not the character is free to make his own charge or not. Declare a charge with the unit and the character goes with them. Don't declare a charge with the unit and the character dashes out on his own.

4. Character is not Frenzied, unit is Frenzied. At first glance this appears to violate the very laws of physics: In order to have the character charge out of the unit it must be determined that the unit will not charge, but this isn't determined until after the player has decided to charge with the character or not. This does not require any level of prescience. Just state you intention of wether or not the character will charge. If the unit decides to charge, well, then the character goes with them. Otherwise proceed with the character's charge.

-T10

stashman
29-01-2008, 23:08
4. Character is not Frenzied, unit is Frenzied. At first glance this appears to violate the very laws of physics: In order to have the character charge out of the unit it must be determined that the unit will not charge, but this isn't determined until after the player has decided to charge with the character or not. This does not require any level of prescience. Just state you intention of wether or not the character will charge. If the unit decides to charge, well, then the character goes with them. Otherwise proceed with the character's charge.

-T10


Okey. I am not really sure I understand. Test me:

Unit of frenzy savage orcs and a goblin character on wolf.

1. Declare charges: Wolfrider charge against a unit of swordsmen 12 inch away.

2. Measure to see if frenzy troops can charge anything and oops! just in reach of 7 inch charge against another unit.

3. Move Chargers! The wolfrider has to stay with the frenzy guys?

4. Lets say a compulsory moving stupid troll stands in the way of the frenzy guys? Do the wolfrider still stay with frenzy guys, that can't charge or is he free to charge his target?

Nurgling Chieftain
29-01-2008, 23:34
Frenzied character on mount has LOS and range to Unit A, but no LOS to unit B. Frenzied unit which frenzied character is in does not have range to Unit A, but has LOS and range to Unit B. Frenzied character has to declare to A, unit has to declare to B. :p

Just havin' fun. For the record, it looks to me like the unit cannot declare a charge once the character has declared, effectively negating their frenzy. Sure, the character would have to come along if they did declare, but they can't so they don't. "Can't" normally overrides "must", e.g. frenzy doesn't let you charge if you're under a spell that prevents it.

Milgram
30-01-2008, 05:55
but even if the characters charge is cancelled by the charge of the frenzied unit: the unit charged by the character (which may be a different one than the one charged by the frenzied unit) has to declare a charge reaction - I think especially of a wolf-goblin in a savage orc unit declaring a charge to a warp cannon 15' away.

also wat would happen if the character charged unit declares s&s? do they hit the character directly or the unit (as he still is part of the unit...)

Gorbad Ironclaw
30-01-2008, 06:07
You don't declare charge reactions until all charges have been declared, so the issue never comes up.

Nurgling Chieftain
30-01-2008, 06:17
...Nor can you legally, knowingly declare a failing charge.

T10
30-01-2008, 06:36
3. Move Chargers! The wolfrider has to stay with the frenzy guys?

4. Lets say a compulsory moving stupid troll stands in the way of the frenzy guys? Do the wolfrider still stay with frenzy guys, that can't charge or is he free to charge his target?

3. The character stays with the unit. See p. 73.

4. The troll gets in the way of the unit so the charge fails. It's still the unit's charge that phase, though, so the character cannot leave.

-T10

T10
30-01-2008, 06:40
Frenzied character on mount has LOS and range to Unit A, but no LOS to unit B. Frenzied unit which frenzied character is in does not have range to Unit A, but has LOS and range to Unit B. Frenzied character has to declare to A, unit has to declare to B. :p


Doesn't really matter: as one or more models in the unit has LOS to unit B the unit may charge it. The character stays with the unit as it charges.

-T10

Nurgling Chieftain
30-01-2008, 07:15
Reviewing the wording, it seems a character can only declare a charge out of a unit that does not declare a charge itself (rather than some of the claims floating around this thread). I'm not sure how that's supposed to interact with the fact that a frenzied unit doesn't declare charges until all non-frenzied units have done so. If they're both frenzied, sure, if the unit charges, the character can't charge out, but if the unit doesn't charge, then the character can - er, must - charge out if in range.

But if the character isn't frenzied, than he's in a catch-22: he can't charge out until after the frenzied unit doesn't declare a charge, which doesn't happen until after all non-frenzied charge declarations.

Milgram
30-01-2008, 07:15
You don't declare charge reactions until all charges have been declared, so the issue never comes up.

wasn't in the frenzy rules a point such as 'after all charges and charge reactions are declared'? I remember this led to some discussions about 'can you actually declare a charge reaction to frenzy charges?' - which should not be discussed here! but I think you'll get my point.

the other thing is: is a 9 inch charge declaration from a M4 unit legal? most will say: yes. otherwise you will only get failed charges from fleeing units or compulsatory movement - which would result in a part of the brb being obsolet. (well, there are parts that are obsolet, no arguing)

so if it is 'not 100% sure' that the frenzy unit will have to declare a charge (e.g. 8.0 inch to the enemy or wheeling included) it is to me clearly a legal charge from the goblinboss on wolf.

T10
30-01-2008, 09:14
I don't know about the rest of you, but my enthusiasm for this quasi-catch-22 is petering out.

Is there an issue? Yes.
Can it be resolved? Yes.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
30-01-2008, 11:01
It's simple really. If the unit a character is in declares a charge for any reason, any seperate charge the character have declared is cancelled and he is carried along with the unit.

There are only 3 rules for charge *declarations*:

1) The charger must have LOS to the unit it *intends* to charge
2) The distance must be within reasonable accordance with the players ability to estimate distances - my embellishment of the FAQ.
3) Frenzied charges are declared after measuring distances

There is no rule that states charge declarations can be nullified but perhaps you are referring to moving chargers?

More below **


A unit's charge trumps the character's charge in all cases.

Charge declarations or moving charges? - 2 different things with different rules.
The rule you stated above is not in the rule book in any case.



4. Character is not Frenzied, unit is Frenzied. At first glance this appears to violate the very laws of physics: In order to have the character charge out of the unit it must be determined that the unit will not charge, but this isn't determined until after the player has decided to charge with the character or not. This does not require any level of prescience. Just state you intention of wether or not the character will charge. If the unit decides to charge, well, then the character goes with them. Otherwise proceed with the character's charge.

-T10

You have not thought this through carefully and omitted the importance of the sequence of charge declarations and the same sequence corresponding to declarations needed, when resolving charges. - "If the unit decides to charge, well, then the character goes with them. Otherwise proceed with the character's charge."
- Using this leads nowhere for this case - apply it to the units stashman's used and I'm sure you will agree.




Unit of frenzy savage orcs and a goblin character on wolf.

1. Declare charges: Wolfrider charge against a unit of swordsmen 12 inch away.

2. Measure to see if frenzy troops can charge anything and oops! just in reach of 7 inch charge against another unit.

3. Move Chargers! The wolfrider has to stay with the frenzy guys?


Yes, as T10 stated the wolfrider is *compelled* by the rules to move with the Savage orcs.
Modifying your units leads to a more controversial case - see below***



it looks to me like the unit cannot declare a charge once the character has declared, effectively negating their frenzy.

This is the 'rule' that is needed and maybe the rules writers should have phrased it as you did.
However as it stands the rule is this:
"if a unit he is with does not declare a charge, a character may declare a separate charge of his own ... leaves the unit".
N.B. The rule does not state that the unit must *declare charges before* the character in it.

**
1) Other than the 3 rules I mentioned above, there are no rules I can think of that might invalidate charge *declarations*.

2) Therefore it is perfectly legal for a non frenzied character in a frenzied unit to *declare* a charge that abides with the 3 rules.

3) The unit to be charged has to make a charge response. This happens *before* frenzied charges are declared with grave consequences to (5) below.

4) Charges are always resolved in the order they are made. This places frenzied charges to the last. Therefore when it is time to *resolve* the character's charge, there is nothing in the rules that prevents it from being resolved.

5) If the character's charge declaration is to be nullified, then so would any charge responses, fleeing, EITW and Panic caused. Very messy indeed.


***
Consider a non frenzied Fear causing character of M9 in a M4 frenzied unit. The character can declare and complete a charge against a unit 12" away. The unit, it declares a charge on, flees and Panics another unit (B). If the frenzied unit was within range of unit (B), then does everything have to be moved back?

The notion of nullifying the character's charge declaration is not only *not* supported by the rules but cannot and should not be used as an interpretation because of the above.

Milgram
30-01-2008, 11:20
Consider a non frenzied Fear causing character of M9 in a M4 frenzied unit. The character can declare and complete a charge against a unit 12" away. The unit, it declares a charge on, flees and Panics another unit (B). If the frenzied unit was within range of unit (B), then does everything have to be moved back?

ok, you're on my side. but I have a serious issue with your example:

M9 fear causing character with US6 that can join a frenzied unit? never heard of that. :)

DeathlessDraich
30-01-2008, 12:17
lol - just picked out an extreme example to cover as many eventualities.
The combo is possible with WE and Lizards, I believe - the unit gains frenzy from Luxurious torment before being joined. M9 - jaguar, alter kindred and Fear causing - through a spell or magic item.

Milgram
30-01-2008, 12:40
but still: the character has to have higher unit strengh than the charged unit so they autoflee if they do not pass the leadership test - and that unit has to have a US of 5 so they actually can cause panic to the unit behind them. so the character must have at least US 6. ;)

make it terror causing - so we could talk about a chaos demon :)

Nurgling Chieftain
30-01-2008, 19:37
However as it stands the rule is this:
"if a unit he is with does not declare a charge, a character may declare a separate charge of his own ... leaves the unit".
N.B. The rule does not state that the unit must *declare charges before* the character in it.Of course not, however it does effectively state the opposite, that the unit must NOT.