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Deadseed
27-09-2005, 22:05
I posted this in my army thread, but I will include it here as well.

Does Doom and Darkness! work with the banshee scream, even though it doesn't say it's a leadership test?

A manager at my local GW said yes, but what are your opinions?

Griefbringer
27-09-2005, 22:17
Off-hand, I would say that the banshee scream would not be affected, since it is not a leadership test. The description of the said spell only talks about leadership tests.

NakedFisherman
27-09-2005, 22:23
The Banshee scream isn't a test, so I'd say no.

vilo
08-04-2007, 19:45
the banshee TEST'S against the units leadership so it does affect it. just like skaven get to add there rank bonus against it

Ganymede
08-04-2007, 19:50
It is also worth noting that the Doom and Darkness text is being misquoted here. The description of the spell never mentions leadership tests at all. If it did, we wouldn't have a problem.

vilo
08-04-2007, 19:56
it only mentions leadership based tests, which covers a broad spectrum but never answers any single one of them definitely

DarthBinky
08-04-2007, 21:13
The spell says it affects "any Leadership-based test [the affected unit] is required to take."

The banshee wail is not a test of any sort for the target unit; the Banshee is the one rolling. It doesn't matter if the wail is a "leadership-based test" or not in this case, because the banshee is the one taking it.

Therefore D&D! has no effect upon the wail. Although it would effect any subsequent panic test(s).

vilo
08-04-2007, 21:20
GW has already said that the banshee allows the addition of ld from skaven ranks as it is leadership bassed same applies for D+D, as there is no clarification as to what a a leadership based test is all we can do is follow past precedent as there are plenty of ways to argue for and against just like the skaven issue.

Ganymede
08-04-2007, 21:23
If I may ask, how come you are assuming that a leadership-based test means the exact same thing as a leadership test?

Atrahasis
08-04-2007, 23:15
Because leadership-based test isn't defned anywhere, so it makes sense to treat it the same way. Anything else requires far more assumption.

Ganymede
08-04-2007, 23:40
Isn't assuming that a leadership based test is the same as a leadership test a bit unintuitive? They have different names, and are clearly given in different contexts as seen in the DaD spell description... shouldn't they be different? Additionally, remember that in 7th, the break test is not specifically noted as being a type of leadership test.

I had a whole blurb in the other thread as to how someone could arrive at the conclusion that leadership based tests are their own seperate entity.

DarthBinky
09-04-2007, 04:42
GW has already said that the banshee allows the addition of ld from skaven ranks as it is leadership bassed...
They did? Where? I can find no such reference in the FAQ's.

alextroy
09-04-2007, 05:16
I'm with DarthBinky on this. Neither the Skaven nor the Vampire Counts FAQs say any such thing.

vilo
09-04-2007, 19:37
i believe it was done in one of the journals i know this exists as it was used against me (the skaven adding there ld) in the GT. the referee in question even went to get there little black folder to show me when i complained and i was told that this is what GW rules boys and staff should be saying the rule works as.

EvC
09-04-2007, 19:52
It'd be damn nice if they shared their GT special rulings with the rest of us...

Atrahasis
09-04-2007, 19:54
The Events team shouldn't be trusted to make a decision as far as the rules go. Sad but true.

vilo
10-04-2007, 02:23
there was a lot of talk this year about that referee's ruling book to be posted on the net. most people agreed this was a good idea as things like this are most likely to come up in tournament play were people are trying to get an edge on their opponents.

blahblahblah
10-04-2007, 04:25
I would let the combination work just from a fluff approach. the banshe makes people die of fright, so if the spell makes people more easily frightened, I think it should kill more of them. As for the skaven, if they feel more secure in large groups and are less likely to be frightened, I think less of them should be killed off by the banshee. the RAR may disagree, but I think it makes sense.

Highborn
10-04-2007, 08:11
RAR = Rules as Ritten? :D

Gorbad Ironclaw
10-04-2007, 11:54
I posted this in my army thread, but I will include it here as well.

Does Doom and Darkness! work with the banshee scream, even though it doesn't say it's a leadership test?

A manager at my local GW said yes, but what are your opinions?


That your manager doesn't know the rules of the game if he said yes.

A Banshee scream isn't a leadership test, Doom and Darkness only effect leadership tests. It's all there quite clearly in the rules, it just requires you to go step by step and takes things litterally instead of assuming.

vilo
10-04-2007, 15:13
the point of argument is whether or not leadership BASED tests are only leadership related i.e panic or whether it encompasses any tests that use leadership to determine the outcome.

Festus
10-04-2007, 15:19
hi

The Banshee's screm is not a test at all. It is a mathematical operation coupled with a die roll.

It is

2D6+2-Leadership=Wounds suffered

There is not a test at all, there is no unit doing any testing. The Banshee screams, and some troops may or may not die.

Festus

vilo
11-04-2007, 19:39
all tests are mathematical equations, 2d6- combat modifiers, if greater than then run, if lower than stay.

Atrahasis
11-04-2007, 20:11
all tests are mathematical equations, 2d6- combat modifiers, if greater than then run, if lower than stay.

By that logic, all leadership tests are break tests. You're wrong.

Krankenstein
11-04-2007, 20:24
By that logic, all leadership tests are break tests. You're wrong.

He would be wrong to claim that all leadership tests are break tests. But he didn't, that was your idea.

All "tests" are indeed mathematical operations. And even if somebody somewhere should find some subtle distinction between tests and non-tests, I would wager that the distinction would be far beyond anything Games Workshop had ever considered.

I don’t think this question have a clear answer.

Atrahasis
11-04-2007, 20:41
all tests are mathematical equations, 2d6- combat modifiers


He would be wrong to claim that all leadership tests are break tests. But he didn't, that was your idea.

He said that all tests are 2d6-combat modifiers.



All "tests" are indeed mathematical operations.Rolling to hit is a mathematical operation. Are you suggesting that they should be included in the definition of "test" as well?

The fact remains that the ONLY mechanism GW calls a test is to roll dice and check if the result is higher than a statistic. The result of that mechanic is boolean, not numerical. The Banshee's Howl does not follow that mechanic.

Krankenstein
11-04-2007, 21:22
Rolling to hit is a mathematical operation. Are you suggesting that they should be included in the definition of "test" as well?


No. Not because it couldn’t be argued. I’m sure it could. By someone who could see the point in doing so. I am certainly not that guy.


The fact remains that the ONLY mechanism GW calls a test is to roll dice and check if the result is higher than a statistic… The Banshee's Howl does not follow that mechanic.

The Banshee’s Howl does not follow any mechanic. It’s another GW special rule, too clever and not clever enough.

EvC
11-04-2007, 22:26
The fact remains that the ONLY mechanism GW calls a test is to roll dice and check if the result is higher than a statistic. The result of that mechanic is boolean, not numerical. The Banshee's Howl does not follow that mechanic.

With a banshee scream, you roll dice, add a modifier and then check if the result is higher than a statistic. It is boolean, in that IF difference is X THEN number of wounds is also X.

However in this case I'd say you've simply phrased what a GW "test" is poorly, and your point is still valid in that the Banshee Howl doesn't quite force a "test", though it might as well be. I think an FAQ issued would probably support that the D&D penalty would apply to the Howl, but then that says more about how little faith I have in the quality of FAQ's put together by GW...

Atrahasis
11-04-2007, 22:29
It is boolean, in that IF difference is X THEN number of wounds is also X.That isn't boolean. Boolean results can have only one of two values.

EvC
11-04-2007, 22:32
Okay fair enough. Tell me quickly then, are undead crumbling tests with their non-boolean consequences in fact not tests at all?

Ganymede
11-04-2007, 22:38
The fact remains that the ONLY mechanism GW calls a test is to roll dice and check if the result is higher than a statistic. The result of that mechanic is boolean, not numerical. The Banshee's Howl does not follow that mechanic.

Such is how GW defines a "characteristic test" and a "leadership test", but they never define the word "test". As the situation to be dealt with here is a "leadership-based test", then the definition of a characteristic test and a leadership test si laregely moot.

We can look at other tests which behave in different ways, such as the instability test. With the instability test, there are several different, gradually changing results that can occur. With such in mind, I think it is safe to assume that the definition of 'test' is slightly broader than a die roll compared to a statistic.

Atrahasis
11-04-2007, 23:08
Okay fair enough. Tell me quickly then, are undead crumbling tests with their non-boolean consequences in fact not tests at all?I couldn't say without seeing the Undead rules, my TK and VC books are elsewhere at present.


With the instability test, there are several different, gradually changing results that can occur.

No. Instability tests are passed or failed, just as with other tests. The Instability test rules even use the word "failed".

EvC
11-04-2007, 23:15
Well posing that question I thought it would be remiss not to check the answer myself- the units must take a "Leadership test" and however many points they fail by, they take a wound. So the boolean part is a non-issue (So it's a good thing I recognise your point doesn't revolve around that ;) ).

Festus
11-04-2007, 23:43
Hi

Well posing that question I thought it would be remiss not to check the answer myself- the units must take a "Leadership test" ...
Which ones?

Certainly not the VC undead, as they lose W equal to the difference in Combat Result, no test anywhere.


cf. VC Army Book, p.25

Festus

edit: Ah, you are talking about the Loss of the General... never mind me... :(

Jonke
12-04-2007, 00:16
The banshee and casket is unique in that player A rolls a dice and confer towards player Bs units ld. I find this is crucial, 'cause doom and darkness makes the affected suffer -3 penalty on its tests. Does really the unit take a test when it is the opposing player rolling dice?

Peace!

ice5nake
17-04-2007, 16:38
In light of the dubiousness surrounding this and in the spirit of the fluff for the two items in question, the Ghostly Howl and Doom & Darkness, I'd say it should go that they would work well together.

When I read the spell and then the banshee rules they stuck out to me as something to try together. Doom & Darkness has to subtract from a "leadership based test" because you can't really minus from the unit's leadership characteristic since it could have the general within 12 inches or have a hero inside the unit.

Using your general's leadership or a character inside the unit is how all leadership based tests work. Coincidentally, this is also exactly how the Ghostly Howl works. Therefor, I believe, and so should you, that the Ghostly Howl is testing against the units leadership to determine the number of wounds the Ghostly Howl will cause.

On a less rational note: Come on people, I can't believe someone is seriously trying to argue that you can't use the banshee scream with Doom & Darkness. You're trying to kill a good fluffy combo with rules lawyering.

However, I am going to call GW customer service and ask because I am curious as to what they will say.

E-616
17-04-2007, 17:42
As a dedicated VC player I've thought a lot about this combo and sadly reading the rules to the letter it does seem to specify leadership based tests and the banshee howl technically isn't...

I'd love to hear the official ruling on this one from GW though as I only really don't use that combo to stop the headache of trying to prove it can work to more rules lawyer based players.

On a side note D&D works very well with The rod of flaming death in my experience :D

ice5nake
17-04-2007, 18:45
Go home rules lawyers.

Posted in another thread, and cited as being from the GW Web site.

"For simplicity's sake I'd say that the Banshee Howl does indeed force a Ld-based test, so the Ld bonus should apply."

- Alessio Cavatore, designer of the Skaven book. Referring to the skaven Ld rank bonus.

Yellow Commissar
18-04-2007, 00:04
Go home rules lawyers.

Posted in another thread, and cited as being from the GW Web site.

"For simplicity's sake I'd say that the Banshee Howl does indeed force a Ld-based test, so the Ld bonus should apply."

- Alessio Cavatore, designer of the Skaven book. Referring to the skaven Ld rank bonus.

Hello.

I think I'll stay. :)

Alessio's opinion is not the rules. Feel free to play that way, but it is not what the rules say.

Many around here believe only the rules may be discussed on this forum. I'm somewhat with you whereas I'd just as soon talk about how to apply the rules. I'm pretty sure I am in the minority, though.

Take it easy. :)

monkeyboyalpha
18-04-2007, 01:44
hi

The Banshee's screm is not a test at all. It is a mathematical operation coupled with a die roll.

It is

2D6+2-Leadership=Wounds suffered

There is not a test at all, there is no unit doing any testing. The Banshee screams, and some troops may or may not die.

Festus


Thanks Festus for printing what the Banshee rule is, I don't have a VC book.

No D&D doesn't work in this circumstance unfortunately.

D&D does not affect the base LD value of the target unit, it just makes you take LD tests at a -3 modifier to the dice roll (like a break test is a modifier to the dice roll, not to the units base LD value), there is a difference here.

If the target unit is in range of their general then they replace their base LD value with that of the general, as stated in the rules.

D&D does not tell you to replace a units base LD value, just that you make any LD tests at a -3, the units base LD is unchanged.

The Banshee scream is not making the target unit take a LD test, it is just using the target units current LD value as part of a formula.

2D6 + 2, - Ld = wounds...

So, against normal orcs, 2D6 +2, - 7 = ?... Against BigBoss in range, 2D6 +2, - 8 = ?

The formula uses the target units base Ld value, or rather, it's current LD value. A unit under D&D still uses it's base LD, it just has to deduct 3 from any dice rolls made for LD tests.....



MBA

ice5nake
18-04-2007, 15:19
Doom & Darkness does not affect only a "Leadership Test" as defined on page 5 of the Warhammer rulebook. It affects "leadership based test(s)". What a "leadership based test" is not defined in the rulebook.

Please attempt to dispute these statements.

The question is really then, Is the Ghostly Howl a Ld-based test?

A GW employee has stated in his opinion the Ghostly Howl is a leadership based test.

Thanks everyone, but I'll take a GW employee's opinion over all of yours, especially since it agrees with my opinion, and actually makes sense logically.

Masque
18-04-2007, 15:29
Doom & Darkness does not affect only a "Leadership Test" as defined on page 5 of the Warhammer rulebook. It affects "leadership based test(s)". What a "leadership based test" is not defined in the rulebook.

Please attempt to dispute these statements.

The question is really then, Is the Ghostly Howl a Ld-based test?

I'm not convinced Ghostly Howl is a 'test' of any kind, but I admit that if it was a 'test' it would definately be considered 'leadership based'. I also don't believe the unit subject to Doom & Darkness is taking this 'test'. The controller of the Banshee is the one doing all the rolling.

EvC
18-04-2007, 16:44
Doom & Darkness does not affect only a "Leadership Test" as defined on page 5 of the Warhammer rulebook. It affects "leadership based test(s)". What a "leadership based test" is not defined in the rulebook.

Please attempt to dispute these statements.

The question is really then, Is the Ghostly Howl a Ld-based test?

A GW employee has stated in his opinion the Ghostly Howl is a leadership based test.

Thanks everyone, but I'll take a GW employee's opinion over all of yours, especially since it agrees with my opinion, and actually makes sense logically.

Ha, excellent post, exactly how I see it. It's a test in my mind in exactly the same way a crumbling test is, it's just a funky, almost unique test (And as said in the thread about the Tomb King's Death Chariot thread, just because it's unique doesn't discount it).

Jonke
18-04-2007, 23:25
The question is really then, Is the Ghostly Howl a Ld-based test?

The question is: Is Ghostly Howl a ld-based test taken by the unit Ghostly Howled at?

Peace!

Kadrium
19-04-2007, 04:24
Not sure why this required a second thread when it was already being debated in one, but as nobody responded to my post in the other one, here's the important parts.


The Banshee says you deduct the "leadership value" of the unit. Doom and Darkness doesn't lower the "leadership value", it applies a penalty when a leadership test is performed.

In leadership tests, you're rolling dice and attempting to roll below a certain value. In the case of the Banshee , you're generating a value with 2d6 and subtracting the value listed on the stat line of the target.

In all cases of statistic tests, the point is to roll dice below the statistic, with all applicable bonuses or penalties. With the cbanshee, that simply isn't the case.

I'd like to add that in leadership tests, you roll the dice against your own unit's value. Universally.

In this case, they're subtracting the leadership of your affected model off of their roll. Not the leadership with bonuses and penalties for certain situations, the leadership stat, given in the stat line.

If the banshee effect actually lowered the leadership stat, it would affect everything, but it doesn't.

lparigi34
19-04-2007, 04:42
Quote: In leadership tests, you're rolling dice and attempting to roll below a certain value. In the case of the Banshee , you're generating a value with 2d6 and subtracting the value listed on the stat line of the target.

It is matematically the same, you can restate the Banshee Howl as a Ld test with a -2 modifier, if you fail the test you take the same amount of wounds as the points you failed the test by.

Jonke
19-04-2007, 05:03
It is matematically the same, you can restate the Banshee Howl as a Ld test with a -2 modifier, if you fail the test you take the same amount of wounds as the points you failed the test by.

But the rules are not worded this way. In all circumstances it would be the same except this one.

imo oppinion what you are doing is implying a change in the rules to make them do what you want them to aka cheating.

Peace!

lparigi34
19-04-2007, 06:15
But the rules are not worded this way. In all circumstances it would be the same except this one.

imo oppinion what you are doing is implying a change in the rules to make them do what you want them to aka cheating.

Peace!

:wtf:

I just demonstrated the equivalence of two mathematical operations, nothing else... Therefore I do cheat... No wonder that Einstein did not play wargames and never joined the Warseer forums!!! :D

ZomboCom
19-04-2007, 12:48
In the same way that cold-blooded doesn't work against banshees, nor will doom and darkness. It's just not a leadership test.

Kadrium
19-04-2007, 13:05
In the same way that cold-blooded doesn't work against banshees, nor will doom and darkness. It's just not a leadership test.

Great point. In all leadership based tests, lizardmen roll 3 dice. Do you roll three dice for the banshee? No, because it's not a leadership based test.

In statistic tests, you roll 1 or 2 dice and compare to the modified score of the model. If the roll is higher, it fails, if the roll is equal or lower, it succeeds. You do NOT roll dice and subtract the leadership and fail if there is a remainder.

In the banshee's howl, you roll dice, add two, and subtract the "leadership value" of the model/unit affected. Doom and Darkness did not lower the "leadership value", it applied a penalty in the event of a leadership test. Not "when subtracting the leadership value" from things.

ice5nake
19-04-2007, 15:54
Cold blooded applys to "Leadership Tests" not "Leadership based tests". However the fluff would be suggest that perhaps it could. I like siding with the fluff myself. You know I would even rule 3d6 and drop the highest plus 2 if howling at a cold blooded unit.

The more I read the rules the less clear it becomes. *sigh*

Also, several posts since my last post completely forget to mention that the unit targeted by the Ghostly Howl may be lent the Ld of the general if he is within 12 inches and also may use the ld of a hero in the unit. That is sounding a lot like a Ld based test to me. It's not testing against the leadership characteristic of the base models of the unit as several posts here are trying to make it sound like. Obviously there are difference, I don't need them pointed out to me.

I think it's clear that GW's intent for how Doom & Darkness, Ghostly Howl, Skaven Rank Bonus, and even now Cold Blooded is dubious if you try to strictly define phrases in the rules.

I think the best solution for GW would be to rewrite the Ghostly Howl with these various effects in mind. Their fluff would mix with clarity in the rules and that's always cool.

lparigi34 says it best listen up Games Workshop:

Ghostly Howl: Target unit takes a Leadership Test and subtracts two. Then target unit takes wounds equal to number of points it lost the Ld test by.

Maybe when the new VC book comes out GW will fix this and make it clearer what is going on or better yet they'll errata it. I think we can all agree on that. ;)

Kadrium
19-04-2007, 17:30
I like siding with the fluff myself.

There's a forum for background and fluff, but this forum is for rules. If fluff write the rules, than my ogre bulls should be able to swallow Bretonnian Knights whole, cause the fluff says they often digest whole suits of heavy Bretonni armor. Where's my swallow whole rule?


You know I would even rule 3d6 and drop the highest plus 2 if howling at a cold blooded unit.

That, I'm sorry, is just totally silly. Should non-cold blooded units roll 2d6 for their leadership against the howl? The howl says "THE LEADERSHIP VALUE". Not "the leadership the model would have while taking a leadership test". The Strength value, toughness value, initiative value, are all listed on the stat line of the affected model, along with a value for the leadership of the model.

Banshee's howl isn't a leadership based test, it's a number of wounds, reduced by the leadership value of the model. If it's a leadership test, against the howl, how would a 0 Ld model be allowed insane courage against the howl? Roll 2d6 and if you happen to roll insane courage, you take 2 less wounds? No, because it's not a leadership test. You're not attempting to roll under the leadership of your own units, the opponent is rolling dice, adding two, and having his results modified by a statistic on your sheet.


Also, several posts since my last post completely forget to mention that the unit targeted by the Ghostly Howl may be lent the Ld of the general if he is within 12 inches and also may use the ld of a hero in the unit.

So what? Subbing the leadership of your general is not the definitive criteria of a leadership test, its a part of the rule for the howl effect.


It's not testing against the leadership characteristic of the base models of the unit as several posts here are trying to make it sound like.

Obviously not, because the HOWL rule says you may use a character/general's leadership, NOT because the leadership test rules say so.


I think it's clear that GW's intent for how Doom & Darkness, Ghostly Howl, Skaven Rank Bonus, and even now Cold Blooded is dubious if you try to strictly define phrases in the rules.

As Festus said earlier, we're unfortunately not discussing fluff or intent. The forum is for the discussion of the rules, what they state, not what they imply.


I think the best solution for GW would be to rewrite the Ghostly Howl with these various effects in mind. Their fluff would mix with clarity in the rules and that's always cool.

We definitely agree completely there. A lot of people confuse the fact that, for example, because I'm arguing that doom and darkness should not affect the banshee howl effect results, that I believe that makes sense. I haven't argued at all what makes sense. I'm simply debating what the rules seem to indicate to me. There are plenty of rules that are very clear in warhammer that don't make sense, but they're stated with such clarity, there's no debate needed.



lparigi34 says it best listen up Games Workshop:

Ghostly Howl: Target unit takes a Leadership Test and subtracts two. Then target unit takes wounds equal to number of points it lost the Ld test by.

Maybe when the new VC book comes out GW will fix this and make it clearer what is going on or better yet they'll errata it. I think we can all agree on that. ;)

If thats how the rule were re-written, there'd be no more room for debate. Unfortunately, thats just not how it's written right now.

Jonke
19-04-2007, 23:42
:wtf:

I just demonstrated the equivalence of two mathematical operations, nothing else... Therefore I do cheat... No wonder that Einstein did not play wargames and never joined the Warseer forums!!! :D

Sorry for sounding a bit harsh, I'm getting tired of this discussion.

My point is even though mathematically the effects are the same, in this case it does matter that the rule isn't worded the way you suggest and your alternative wording is changing the rules.

Peace!

vilo
19-04-2007, 23:42
The main argument regarding the banshee scream and doom and darkness is whether or not it constitutes a leadership based test.

The word BASED is the problem. Not what characteristic test's are, nor what leadership test's are, as this is clearly defined in the rules. Some people belive that any dice roll based on the the ld of a unit classes as a ld based test, while others don't and this is the crux of the argument, which cannot be solved by us mere mortals. No matter how much people argue.

i for one believe that it would modify the ld but my arguments for this have all ready been made, if anyone can officially identify what a ld based test actually encompasses i would willingly apologies, and admit my mistake.

Jonke
19-04-2007, 23:52
The main argument regarding the banshee scream and doom and darkness is whether or not it constitutes a leadership based test.

The main thing is wether or not the target unit takes the test. Even if banshee-scream is a ld-based test (wich I think it's not) if it is not the target unit taking the test d&d won't take effect.

To speculate a bit, I believe d&d is worded ld-based to catch in break tests as well as other ld-tests such as psychology and tests generated by magic items.

Peace!

vilo
19-04-2007, 23:58
can see your point

but many sources state that it does affect it also it can also be claimed that the banshee is testing off the target units leadership.

therefore fulfilling all criteria for both spell and scream.

Jonke
20-04-2007, 00:13
but many sources state that it does affect it

What sources?


it can also be claimed that the banshee is testing off the target units leadership.

Yes it does. But that doesn't mean the unit is taking the test. imo for a unit to perform any action the owning player has to be active (rolling dice) in performing the action e.g. taking a test.

Peace!

vilo
20-04-2007, 00:19
unfortunately gt staff and alessio ok ok i know dont start.

unfortunately imho doesn't work for an argument based on the rules

EvC
20-04-2007, 00:21
Alessio, someone who writed for White Dwarf and other GW employees, but even their thoughts aren't gospel. I think I've been convinced that the Banshee's Scream can't really be considered a leadership-based test in game terms... I'm sure if the spell intended for it to be used with the Howl then it'd have just said the target reduces its leadership by 3.

vilo
20-04-2007, 01:43
if they did that then it would affect ld test from other units testing from the general which is where i feel they wanted to restrain from affecting. as it could overpower the spell against goblins or skaven.

Jonke
20-04-2007, 01:47
Is this
unfortunately gt staff and alessio ok ok i know dont start.

an answer to this?


What sources?



unfortunately imho doesn't work for an argument based on the rules

Since the rules doesn't make it clear I can only speak of my oppinion on how to interpret them.

Peace!

EvC
20-04-2007, 02:02
if they did that then it would affect ld test from other units testing from the general which is where i feel they wanted to restrain from affecting. as it could overpower the spell against goblins or skaven.

Be that as it may, it's totally irrelevent to the question of whether Doom and Darkness affects the Banshee's scream...

ice5nake
20-04-2007, 19:39
There's a forum for background and fluff, but this forum is for rules. If fluff write the rules, than my ogre bulls should be able to swallow Bretonnian Knights whole, cause the fluff says they often digest whole suits of heavy Bretonni armor. Where's my swallow whole rule?


That, I'm sorry, is just totally silly ...

Maybe this wasn't your intent but you come across very condescendingly and I would appreciate that you don't respond to my post if this is going to be how you continue to be.


Banshee's howl isn't a leadership based test ...

I called GW's rules 800 to finalize this debate. They confirmed that the Ghostly Howl is a Ld-based test. I also confirmed with them that the effects of the Ghostly Howl are completely able to be combined with Doom & Darkness.

It seemed clear to me when I read the rules that common sense was meant to be used when determining what a leadership based test was. Several folks in this thread are attempting to define "leadership based test" too strictly based on the "Leadership Test" reference on page 5 of the Warhammer rulebook.

I can count 3 references from GW publications or folks posting first-hand conversations with GW employees that make it completely clear what their intentions were here. So, there is no guessing what GW's intentions were anymore. It is completely clear.

Following the rules resolution flow chart (http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/flowchart.htm) found on the GW Web site this case is closed.

Revlid
20-04-2007, 19:45
How many death-argued-to threads does this make?
Sod it, I'm going to go and play a game of toy soldiers with a friend and make decisions based on mutual agreement and fluff, rolling a D6 when there's a problem.
Radical, I know.

Kadrium
20-04-2007, 22:30
Maybe this wasn't your intent but you come across very condescendingly and I would appreciate that you don't respond to my post if this is going to be how you continue to be.

I'm not being condescending, I'm arguing my point and I'm a fairly passionate debater. No offense was intended. I just truly don't understand why people come to a rules forum and then use the fluff as part of their argument.


I called GW's rules 800 number, etc, etc

If thats how they want the rule to work, I do hope they change the wording of either doom and darkness, or the banshee howl. The RAW does not seem to support that at all.