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RedStompa
29-01-2008, 01:30
I have been reading (and am reading) Fulgrim, and I have read all the other books minus angels of darkness.

My observations based on Death Gaurd/Luna Wolves and Emperors CHildren that regular marines didn't like apothecaries very much, hell even the Primarchs of said legions didn't seem to like them very much.

Why was this? They patched up wounded marines, gave them bionics when they needed it, and were in charge of secureing precious gene-seed form deceased battle-brothers.

Why would regular mainres and even primarchs scorn such specialists? Because they don't engauge in fighting as much as the other marines? Or is it because of their specialty?

Johnnyfrej
29-01-2008, 01:35
Well you are talking about the traitor legions, so they probably value the ability to take a life moreso than to save it. I don't doubt apoths were treated with respect and admiration from the more humble minded Chapters/Marines.

-Private Jon

RedStompa
29-01-2008, 01:44
Well preheresy? I would imagine, especially with the Emperor's Children and the Luna wolves that saving every battle brother they could was a high priority..

Xgladar
29-01-2008, 01:55
perhaps you could give us some quotes or examples of this hatred for apothecaries from the books? i find it hard to imagine space marines would hate their brothers based on their profession

RedStompa
29-01-2008, 02:36
In Fulgrim, ( I can't remember exactly which page) but battle-brothers and Fulgrim himself show an extreeme lack of patience with Fabius, even before he asked about experimenting on them... When Fulgrim first met with Horus, he essentially told Fabius to **** off.

thearchiver
29-01-2008, 02:39
Having read all the HH books its really only in Fulgrim, and well thats just becasue the apothecary there is Fabius, and hes a creapy git from the get go and you know its just going to get worse :)

DantesInferno
29-01-2008, 02:45
I have been reading (and am reading) Fulgrim, and I have read all the other books minus angels of darkness.

My observations based on Death Gaurd/Luna Wolves and Emperors CHildren that regular marines didn't like apothecaries very much, hell even the Primarchs of said legions didn't seem to like them very much.

Why was this? They patched up wounded marines, gave them bionics when they needed it, and were in charge of secureing precious gene-seed form deceased battle-brothers.

Why would regular mainres and even primarchs scorn such specialists? Because they don't engauge in fighting as much as the other marines? Or is it because of their specialty?

One possible explanation which springs to mind is that the Apothecaries weren't so critically important to the survival of the pre-Heresy Legions as they are to the post-Heresy Loyalist Chapters.

Post-Heresy, the only source for gene-seed is from the marines themselves, primarily deceased Marines. This means the Apothecaries' role in recovering gene-seed from Marines killed on the battlefield is crucial to the survival of the Chapter.

Pre-Heresy, however, the Primarchs themselves were still around, and there were huge mass-produced banks of gene-seed grown, both used for the creation of the Legions on Terra and used once the Primarchs had been rediscovered.

RedStompa
29-01-2008, 03:30
But still, why would they scorn apothacaries? They're just trying to help!

sabreu
29-01-2008, 03:38
I don't think it's out right scorn but indifference. Why should they treat them any better than a standard battle brother at that time frame? If you notice the people getting chummy with each other were generally captains and higher ranked Space Marines.

taylor637
29-01-2008, 03:47
that doesn't make since to me.....medics are valued team members, **** even the enemy would rather kill the medic and wound the foot slogger.....

RedStompa
29-01-2008, 03:59
I don't think apothecaries were used to that wide an extent... I think they were brought in after a battle was over, or waiting aboard ships..

Khaine's Messenger
29-01-2008, 04:05
My observations based on Death Gaurd/Luna Wolves and Emperors CHildren that regular marines didn't like apothecaries very much, hell even the Primarchs of said legions didn't seem to like them very much.

The only apothecary I noticed to attract any scorn was Fabius Bile, and he was probably scorned because of his rather eccentric behavior. The Luna Wolves' apothecarion got a huge black eye, though, because they were forced to treat a Primarch wounded with the anathame and were forced to admit that they didn't have a clue about a Primarch's physiology despite nearly two centuries of being less than a scant few miles of him for most of their careers. And admitting that anything is a "mystery" was shocking to marines for whom the Imperial Truth has been judge, jury, and executioner.

Which is interesting to think about, really. Despite being relatively well-educated on the topic of Astartes medicine, the Apothecaries didn't exactly have the same touch as mortal doctors exactly because they were dealing with geneseed, which came from the Primarchs, who were created...somehow (SCIENCE...er?)...by the Emperor. Contemplating it too much encouraged too many questions that might unmask the Imperial Truth, and so they were compartmentalized away and ignored if possible. Assuming they were treated as such...which only goes to show that if you have a proposition, we can probably BS something to support it in a pinch.

Commander Dante
29-01-2008, 04:29
Fabius is just a creepy annoying guy. And i have only noticed he only recieves scron from his betters and when he speaks out of place, im pretty sure the rank and file marine care alot about their Apothocarian brethren

Archaon
10-02-2008, 19:55
I've read up to Flight of the Eisenstein and i can't say i've read the same (didn't read Fulgrim yet though).

IF there was unease (and i highly doubt it) it could be that Apothecaries remind the Space Marines that they can be and will be wounded or else there wouldn't be a need for them.

However even that reasoning is a stretch because every Marines knows he'll get wounded sooner than later and he may need the assistance of an Apothecary.

ryng_sting
10-02-2008, 20:08
Which is interesting to think about, really. Despite being relatively well-educated on the topic of Astartes medicine, the Apothecaries didn't exactly have the same touch as mortal doctors exactly because they were dealing with geneseed, which came from the Primarchs, who were created...somehow (SCIENCE...er?)...by the Emperor. Contemplating it too much encouraged too many questions that might unmask the Imperial Truth, and so they were compartmentalized away and ignored if possible.

That may just have been one of the better comments I've read yet about the HH novels.

StanMcKim
11-02-2008, 00:52
I imagine that space marines would resent the need for a medic.

Think about it. They view themselves as demi-gods of war, functionally immortal, and each of them typically has a bit of an ego because of this. Of course when they're hurt they're going to deny it. Look at Garo during the battle of Istvaan Extremis.
-Stan

Baaltharus
11-02-2008, 07:01
One possible explanation which springs to mind is that the Apothecaries weren't so critically important to the survival of the pre-Heresy Legions as they are to the post-Heresy Loyalist Chapters.

Post-Heresy, the only source for gene-seed is from the marines themselves, primarily deceased Marines. This means the Apothecaries' role in recovering gene-seed from Marines killed on the battlefield is crucial to the survival of the Chapter.

Pre-Heresy, however, the Primarchs themselves were still around, and there were huge mass-produced banks of gene-seed grown, both used for the creation of the Legions on Terra and used once the Primarchs had been rediscovered.

Not strictly true my man, the recovery of fallen SM geneseed is the primary source of stable geneseed but its also cloned/grown. If this weren't the case then most chapters would be wiped out in a few good centuries of warfare (or quicker if something particularly devasting happened).

It does however seem to suggest that the creation of new marines uses 'recycled' geneseed wherever possible as cloning the geneseed increases the chances of miniscule mutations seeping into the chapter, something that all wish to avoid where possible. SM are required to submit a small amount of geneseed every so often to the adeptus biologis/mechanicus to make sure geneseed purity is maintained (or so I'm led to believe). I'm sure thats the goal for the IWs in Storm of Iron (haven't read it myself).

Well, thats my interpretation of it anyway...

DantesInferno
11-02-2008, 08:34
Not strictly true my man, the recovery of fallen SM geneseed is the primary source of stable geneseed but its also cloned/grown. If this weren't the case then most chapters would be wiped out in a few good centuries of warfare (or quicker if something particularly devasting happened).

It does however seem to suggest that the creation of new marines uses 'recycled' geneseed wherever possible as cloning the geneseed increases the chances of miniscule mutations seeping into the chapter, something that all wish to avoid where possible. SM are required to submit a small amount of geneseed every so often to the adeptus biologis/mechanicus to make sure geneseed purity is maintained (or so I'm led to believe). I'm sure thats the goal for the IWs in Storm of Iron (haven't read it myself).

From what we've seen, the only source of gene-seed for Marine Chapters is from living Marines. While this may seem somewhat implausible given the high casualty rates Marine Chapters can suffer, you have to remember that there are two progenoid glands: one in the neck, one in the chest. Both glands only have to be removed on the battlefield if they haven't already been removed when they mature.

And as for the cloning/breeding of gene-seed, the IA: Rites of Initiation article strongly implies that it is only done by the Adeptus Mechanicus in order to create enough gene-seed for a new Founding. It seems clear that the Chapters themselves have neither the facilities, equipment nor training necessary to oversee the implantation of zygotes into test-slaves for the purposes of reproduction.

Baaltharus
11-02-2008, 17:22
You could well be right but I think that SM chapters must have access to cloning facilties either within their own bastions or failing this, by requesting it from the adeptus mechanicus. I should think that at the very least the first founding chapters would have the facilities to create their own geneseed but this could just be my rose tinted view.

Supremearchmarshal
11-02-2008, 18:56
You could well be right but I think that SM chapters must have access to cloning facilties either within their own bastions or failing this, by requesting it from the adeptus mechanicus. I should think that at the very least the first founding chapters would have the facilities to create their own geneseed but this could just be my rose tinted view.

It is possible to create replacement organs, but it is also very difficult. The Adeptus Mechanicus can do it, and it can well be that the SM themselves can't (perhaps this was done on purpose, to make them more dependent on the Imperium and thus less likely to rebel).

Finnith
11-02-2008, 21:35
As said before i think the constant reminder that they arnt immortal or invincible by having medics around is a dent to their confidence. Theres also they fact that they mention alot that they are quite happy to die in battle and expect to go that way.

The idea of surviving crippling injuries but never being battle fit ever again would be depressing in the extreme. All your own squad mates get to run about blasting the emperors enemies where your stuck on the ship and some newbie takes your place to boot. Many would rather slowly die or be put out of their misery so to speak than be a constant burden as they see it on the rest of their legion.

As for gene-seed for some reason i thought they only needed 1 to work and the other one they grow themselves to be harvested for the next generation. In an average life time a space marines would produce enough gene-seeds to make 3-4 scouts while still being able to fight at peak ability.

Sigs_09
11-02-2008, 23:49
I've read all the HH novels, and I didn't at all read it that way. I think, in fact, that other than Fulgrim's one outburst towards Fabius, I can't recall any other primarch being negative towards an apothecary. I think Eidolon (spelt wrong, no doubt) was more negative towards Fabius in a single chapter than any primarch was throughout the series as of yet.

Baaltharus
12-02-2008, 00:16
I just remembered the SM keep large stores of their geneseed in the Genevault (wonder how I forgot that one) strongly suggesting that they or the admech produce stores of it to replace that which is lost in battle.

DantesInferno
12-02-2008, 01:49
I just remembered the SM keep large stores of their geneseed in the Genevault (wonder how I forgot that one) strongly suggesting that they or the admech produce stores of it to replace that which is lost in battle.

I'm not sure how the fact that the Marines have a heavily guarded vault for their gene-seed strongly indicates that they or the Ad Mech mass-produce stores of it for the Chapter. It's perfectly possible that the gene-seed stored in the Chapter's vault is simply that gene-seed harvested from their living Marines. Keep in mind that for each Marine successfully implanted with gene-seed, the Chapter will get 2 progenoid glands for later implantation into recruits (assuming they're successfully harvested and no mutation occurs).

But it's really clear from everything else in the article that only the Ad Mech has the facilities and expertise to mass-produce gene-seed using human test-slaves. Marine Chapters are forced to rely on the gene-seed recovered from Marines by their Apothecaries, either in surgery or on the battlefield.

And it's likely that this is a deliberate post-Heresy measure, as Supremearchmarshal suggested. The thought of Marine Chapters capable of rebelling and being able to mass-produce gene-seed to swell their numbers would seriously worry the Imperial hierarchy.

Vaz84
12-02-2008, 02:25
In the IW novel Storm of Iron the IW break into a gene-seed store house, one of the only two? in the galaxy. They steal a heck of a heck alot of geneseed for Abbadonadondon... don..

Remember every chapter must submit geneseed for purity testing, with 1000+ chapters, thats a big cold warehouse.

Baaltharus
12-02-2008, 05:50
I'm not sure how the fact that the Marines have a heavily guarded vault for their gene-seed strongly indicates that they or the Ad Mech mass-produce stores of it for the Chapter. It's perfectly possible that the gene-seed stored in the Chapter's vault is simply that gene-seed harvested from their living Marines. Keep in mind that for each Marine successfully implanted with gene-seed, the Chapter will get 2 progenoid glands for later implantation into recruits (assuming they're successfully harvested and no mutation occurs).

But it's really clear from everything else in the article that only the Ad Mech has the facilities and expertise to mass-produce gene-seed using human test-slaves. Marine Chapters are forced to rely on the gene-seed recovered from Marines by their Apothecaries, either in surgery or on the battlefield.

And it's likely that this is a deliberate post-Heresy measure, as Supremearchmarshal suggested. The thought of Marine Chapters capable of rebelling and being able to mass-produce gene-seed to swell their numbers would seriously worry the Imperial hierarchy.

I see, it only takes one geneseed to make the SM but they ultimately get 2 back?...that could work. I still think they'd keep a certain amount of geneseed in excess as a chapters numbers will usually be in a state of flux. Plus it'd be kinda embarrasing if they have to turn round to a initiate and tell him there had been an administration error regarding the geneseed and he couldn't join the chapter until someone got shot :D

Iuris
12-02-2008, 09:03
I think people forget one thing:

Fulgrim was an arrogant Primarch, and Fabius was "just" an apothecary.

Apothecaries are not high ranks, they're more like sergeants. The chief apothecary of a legion would enjoy some serious respect, but not just a regular apothecary.