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Lord Omnissah
30-01-2008, 09:39
Recently, I have been seeing a lot of people saying that Gunline armies are boring, or borderline cheesy to play against. I have decided to play an empire Engineer-themed army, with lots of gunpowder, and very little of anything else. Is there any possible way for me to add some fun to the list? Thanks in advance, Lord Omnissah

Jack of Blades
30-01-2008, 09:53
Make the models nice with converting and so on. Include a minimum of combat blocks. Even if you're not intending to powergame, few if any are going to want to play against a gunline. I myself would do it, but only sometimes. So, the solution is to simply include combat blocks.

Braad
30-01-2008, 10:04
Variety. That's all I can say. And this includes some close combat stuff.
I can imagine that making such a themed army is very cool, but can't really see it being lots of fun all the time, especially for opponents that gets bashed everytime. I got the feeling that certain armies simply don't stand much of a chance against a gunline, especially those that mainly rely on CC-power. If your opponent plays that army, you shouldn't expect to face him very often.
Personally, I like to play varied games and nearly never play the same list twice. Sometimes I concentrate on hitting power, other time just fluffy.

By the way, I would play against a gunline, at least now and then, but its opinions you face here, and they can be very different. Some might not be happy, its quite unpredictable.

Just for fun, if you want to go engineer-themed, you might consider converting close combat units to have some kind of engineery thing. Think of a unit of mechanical horses instead of normal knights (of course with just normal rules), or maybe something similar and funny for infantry, though I can't think of anything right now.

Lord Omnissah
30-01-2008, 10:13
Okay, I see, and I believe that pistolers and outriders would be a viable option, Yes?

Jack of Blades
30-01-2008, 10:17
Yeah of course. You can take as much shooting as you want as long as your army isn't made up of it (there's no point in playing fantasy then, 40k would be more appropriate).

Lord Omnissah
30-01-2008, 10:24
Great, because they seemed good for adding some mobility to an otherwise static force.

skank
30-01-2008, 10:34
Gunlines are generally boring to play against repeatedly, and boring for you too i imagine with little to do but roll dice (or just a competetive list?). I don't know anyone who enjoys playing static shooters.

Any variation is good, you could use infantry blocks with black gunners uniforms and make bagage wagon unit fillers, carts with barrels of powder, men carrying boxes/bags of eqiupment/shot etc.

Waralter could i imagine be a siege engine, small detachments could be forward observers with telescopes and optics.

I would go with blackpowder theme rather than gunline

scarletsquig
30-01-2008, 10:40
Gunlines are dull and turn your gameplay into a series of dice rolls and range guesses.

Who wins or loses ends up being determined by army lists rather than tactics.

For example -

Empire gunline vs. normal tomb kings army = easy empire win.

Empire gunline vs. tomb kings army with a couple of tomb scorpions = easy tomb king win.

theunwantedbeing
30-01-2008, 10:57
If you want to add some fun to your gunline....move the damned thing.
Do not take magic, not even a single scroll caddy, drop the lot of it and leave your army with a glaring weakness to magic for your opponent to exploit.

This makes it a helluva lot more fun to play against when the guy cant stop your casting rolls with his plethora of dispel dice.
Take some combat troops over some shooting troops as well, something that makes you move towards the enemy.

No magic in gunlines is fine.
A single scroll caddy is not "no magic".
No scroll caddies is no magic.

El'Flashman
30-01-2008, 11:26
Considering the plethora of complaints levelled at Gunline armies wouldn't it have been a lot better if GW had included a misfire rule for handguns? Say roll a 1 to hit and the gun misfires, a bit like the over heat rule for plasma weapons in 40K. I'm sure fewer people would complain if they got to watch a few of those handguns blow up in their opponents faces.

Grand Warlord
30-01-2008, 11:28
Well, unless you roll godly, its really hard to shoot down enough models to keep out of hand to hand ... granted I have never seen a true gunline in action so I could be wrong.

But the first 2-3 rounds would be at long range and then depending on the army, your only gonna get 1 maybe 2 round of shooting at close range.

TheLionReturns
30-01-2008, 12:44
I don't frequently play against gunlines and would never play one myself. The fun of Warhammer is movement and combinations for me, so a static army is right out. However, a gunline is not necessarily powergaming its just powerful because of the way the game is often played.

A big thing is having no hills in deployment zones. Also a reasonable amount of terrain to cover an advance (not to excess obviously). I see too many games of warhammer played on an open field with a missile heavy army hunkered down around 1 or 2 hills. Its no surprise that under such circumstances the gunline is more likely to win. Get some varied and challenging terrain and army composition becomes less of a factor and what you do with it more important. Added to this, having objectives other than kill the enemy also provides challenges, especially if such objectives are revealed after lists have been designed.

A gunline is a really dumb army because you have so few options, so unless you are facing an enemy with less firepower, defending a narrow point with a big open field in front of you, you are at a major disadvantage. Sadly we seem obsessed with this type of battle in warhammer so gunlines are popular and successful and if winning is you motivation not a dumb move at all.

Jack of Blades
30-01-2008, 12:46
When I start, I sure won't be playing any open field slaughters when I have a choice about it.

FurryMiguell
30-01-2008, 15:02
An army can be a very themed one, and still not be an boring army to play with/against. My army of DE cult of slaanesh consists of both ranged and CC troops. Some say my army is unfair, because I focus on a lot of daemons to do my CC fighting, with only one unit of spearmen in a 2k battle, and I use the DE warriors for crossbowmen. In this way, My CC is very fast and mobile, but lightly armoured, as the rest of my army. I find slow opponents have a way of pulling their hair when my CC run loops around their units, picking of whatever they find suitable, but that is just my way of fighting, and although it has a mix of troops, it still looks like a very unified and cool army

We have a rule in my gaming society saying that for all turnaments no more than 3/5 of your army can be pure missile troops. In this way we get games where all players stand a chance against each other, and it gives us a lot better gaming experience. We have started using these rules when we play games randomly too, mostly to try out our new armies and tactics. This helps making the game what its suppose to be, a game for people to enjoy and have FUN with! A game where you also can challange your tacical abilities!

Gunlines are no fun playing with or against, at least not after a while. Trust me, I know! Try making a unique colour sheme (for your gaming group at least), but if you got a sheme you like, make your general stand out. Convert him! give him new weapons, a name, maybe a backstory? Give your amry a theme! convert the entire army! Make the proud 'Men at arms' under the command of General 'Hans von Rubeck, the conquorer of Albion' (just an example, didnt check any background for this:p). No need to make your army a gunline just because you want it to be themed that way. make swordsmen with rifles slung over their shoulders, ready to defend their comrades in CC, while they fire their guns!

Good luck on your army, hope it will be an unique and colourful one!

Cheers:D

rodmillard
30-01-2008, 21:11
Gunlines can be boring to play with and against, but they don't have to be. I play engineer themed dwarves from time to time, and don't get too many complaints. In an empire army, you may want to consider including some Nuln state troops - it fits the fluff (what with the gunnery school being based there) but it also gives some variety to your state troops. Take at least some special choices that aren't war machines - pistoliers and outriders are good for this, particularly if you put a mounted captain with them. Equally, you should build a weakness into your army, as that stops people feeling hard done by when they play against you. No magic is good for that, as has been said, but it isn't one I've played with as it's already built into my dwarfs! I have, however, played a no-black-powder dwarf army, to put people off, and that was great fun.

gorenut
30-01-2008, 21:26
I think if you maxed out on pistoliers, it'd make the army very fun. Maybe have 1 squad of outriders. I figure that Pistoliers are what makes Empire black powder unique.. if you just want cannons and warmachines, dwarfs do it better. You might even consider taking Bronzino and his galloper guns too just to add more mobile fire.

Big Chief Slapahoe
30-01-2008, 23:39
i dunno just throwing this idea out there, maybe convert each of ure models to be like an individual engineer (though noob ones). like a unit of hand-gunners all with different gizmos and have it be like an engineering type of organization ("engineers guild" or whatnot). that would add a lot of flavor to a bunch of engineers testing all of their modifications and would build nice fluff around the army. Also the improvements are not limited to shooting weapons and can include perhaps more unique close combat weapons, such as the most unique halberds you can find, or an odd assortment of swords, or smashy things (militia may work well in this row with all the different weapons), or convert knights to have "gunpowder tipped lances" (normal rules). So seriously, go wild!

The Underdog
31-01-2008, 00:22
Personally i find that those who play 'engineer themed' armies (either dwarfs or empire) fall into one of two camps. There are those who use the theme as an excuse to 'legitimise' playing a gunline army and don't really care about theme - just using it as an excuse ("it's not cheesy - its themed!"). Then there are those who have picked a theme they like and just happen to find it gives them lots of black powder. These types of players usually come up with all sorts of briliant ideas and conversions as to why they can fit other units into the army (such as the clockwork knights idea someone mentioned above) thus making it more balanced but still themed.

I don't want to appear to be judging you as i have no idea which side of these two styles you fall - thats something for you to decide. However, if you realise your choosing this theme as an excuse to legitimise gunline play then may i suggest that you be very careful. This style of play is generally not well received by many opponents. If i find someone playing a gunline then i will be much less inclined to play them than if i encounter a brilliantly converted and painted army that just happens to include a lot of black powder. Hopefully you can see the difference.

If you need any help expandingthe theme so as to minimise gunline play, then just ask and we'll be very happy to help.

Shank
31-01-2008, 00:31
Don't let anyone discourage you from playing a gunline army. Players who say it is boring or powergaming just have to learn how to deal with this type of army. I don't understand why it is ok to go "Combat" heavy or "Magic" heavy, but when you go shooting heavy, people cry and throw up their arms. I like your idea of a engineer army and you should stick with it.
When playing against a gunline army, you have to use terrain and deployment to your advantage. Most players have a difficult time doing this. They line their armies up usually and charge forward. Then get mad when they get shot to bits.

kdh88
31-01-2008, 00:56
I think it could be okay as long as you do a couple of things. First, include some units/upgrades that fit the theme, but are usually considered subpar, or are rarely taken; Engineers, Halberdier units as either detachments to the gunners or as parent units, command for the Handgunners, champs with wierd weapon options, stuff like that. By the same token, avoid some of the "harder" units that don't really fit- Flaggies, Archlector on a War Altar, those sorts of things. Doing so signals that you actually are building for theme, and not using theme as an excuse. To give the list a little more variety, take some Pistoliers as well; they fit the theme, but are as much a CC unit as a shooty one.

Wadders
31-01-2008, 02:48
Don't let anyone discourage you from playing a gunline army. Players who say it is boring or powergaming just have to learn how to deal with this type of army. I don't understand why it is ok to go "Combat" heavy or "Magic" heavy, but when you go shooting heavy, people cry and throw up their arms. I like your idea of a engineer army and you should stick with it.
When playing against a gunline army, you have to use terrain and deployment to your advantage. Most players have a difficult time doing this. They line their armies up usually and charge forward. Then get mad when they get shot to bits.

Completely agree with the above statement.... you usually find that these people also complain about HE striking first and wood elves being over powered.

My advice play what you want to play, if your opponent/s can't deal with it... swap armies with them and exploit your own army weakness.

Empire gunline has no save, mid range leadership at best and expensive units.. on top of that it is hard to collect points and is more of a denial army. If you opponent has longbows, artillery of any sort or magic they can stay out of range... you move your guns and they cannot shoot.

The Dwarf gunline suffers from lack of numbers, there aren't enough of them on the field.

Good luck with your new Army!

intellectawe
31-01-2008, 03:05
I'll play against a gun line. Those are auto wins for me.

So please... go right ahead!

The Lord of Time
31-01-2008, 05:57
Oh man I was thinking of doing a similar thing with dwarf (engineering theme with some count as models) but now I think I'll add a couple of units of warriors, longbeards and maybe some special choices. This means no :cheese::cheese::cheese:

FurryMiguell
31-01-2008, 07:13
Uh, i think the main thing about a Themed army is not really what troops you include, but what your troops look like. If a Knight looks like a mounted engineer, or maybe eight mounted engineers, I say cool! Ive done 5 themed armies by now, and I think the best part is making conversions for my characters, aswell as my regular and special troop choises. I play against a gunline-themed army now and then, but it is not filled with handgunners! it has two lovly looking units in the gunnery chools uniforms. Thay have swords and shields, but with handguns slung over their shoulders! And his knights look like some kind of engineer madmen, eager to try their new CC thingys.

Uh, what Im sying is, your army can be themed, but still be a fun army to play with/against. i think playing with an themed army is fantastic, and its even better paying against them! (we often spend the first 30min looking at each others conversions and custom armylists...) Its great fun! Try it!!!

Cheers:D

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-01-2008, 07:20
Considering the plethora of complaints levelled at Gunline armies wouldn't it have been a lot better if GW had included a misfire rule for handguns? Say roll a 1 to hit and the gun misfires, a bit like the over heat rule for plasma weapons in 40K. I'm sure fewer people would complain if they got to watch a few of those handguns blow up in their opponents faces.


That wouldn't really make it any more fun to play against. It's not like gunlines are super powerful, the complaints are mostly that they tend to make for fairly dull games.

A few handgunners dying isn't going to make a game where I move forward and my opponent just rolls dice anymore fun.


But aside from that, you could make a perfectly fine engineer themed army without it being a gunline. I feel that is focusing on a tiny aspect to a fairly unrealistic degree. If engineers want to field test there creations, they would bring a proper army, and then some examples of there machines.

They would want troops as bodyguards, and to engage the enemy etc. So a couple of the more experimental warmachines, a couple of engineers, and then else a mostly standard empire army would IMO be more in theme than a pure Engineer/gunline army.

FurryMiguell
31-01-2008, 08:04
yup:). Well said:P

Cheers:D

EvC
31-01-2008, 10:17
It basically depends: are you going blackpowder heavy, with some Master Engineer characters, or is your Engineer-themed army actually Karl Franz on Dragon with two Steam Tanks and two wizards? ;)

skank
31-01-2008, 10:25
Hmmm... was thinking it could be cool if you make the army as if it is the artillery collage itself in a last ditch defence of the school. The students as 'grunts' and the lecturers as heros.

Shank: "I don't understand why it is ok to go "Combat" heavy or "Magic" heavy, but when you go shooting heavy, people cry and
throw up their arms."
Thats quite simple, combat or magic heavy require manouver which makes the game interesting. Gunline sit and shoot, they can be beaten easily by some armys but are still boring to play.

Lucky24/7
31-01-2008, 10:46
im with skank on his idea of a schools own force.

and the maindraw back in a "engineer" army is the that as a hero choice are poor in comparision.

Personally just feild 2 missile units to a combat block with detachment and you shouldnt get any1 complaining, and if they do dont worry .....there probly just bad at the game.
Just convert and have fun with cool looking minis. As menionted above the unit with swordsmen with handguns straped to thier back sounds a good idea and relatively easy to do :D just take make the models with crossbows and then glue the hand guns onto the back of the swordsmen. or vis versa..... hmm sounds a good idea......now where did I put my empire :D

FurryMiguell
31-01-2008, 11:06
Gunnery school themed? Could be cool. I'd probably add some GSs to the army, for color variation. I guess those could be the remainder of the city guard or something:p

mmh, did a conversion. Swordsman with handgun on his back. Looks sweet:)

Cheers:D

Shank
31-01-2008, 23:04
Hmmm... was thinking it could be cool if you make the army as if it is the artillery collage itself in a last ditch defence of the school. The students as 'grunts' and the lecturers as heros.

Shank: "I don't understand why it is ok to go "Combat" heavy or "Magic" heavy, but when you go shooting heavy, people cry and
throw up their arms."
Thats quite simple, combat or magic heavy require manouver which makes the game interesting. Gunline sit and shoot, they can be beaten easily by some armys but are still boring to play.

I disagree. If I take a huge combat army (say, Orcs or Chaos with lots of knights) and just "Surge" forward, where is the tactics in that? Or if I take a Magic heavy High Elf army with 15 power dice, how different is that really from a gunline? My point is, let people play whatever they feel like and don't discourage them. You should be a good sport and play them, whatever they bring.
Besides, Gunlines are very difficult to win with consistantly. If you have a bad turn of shooting, your dead. It only takes one lone Khorne Knight to waste a whole unit of Handgunners.
Lets face it, gunlines are a part of the game, better learn to deal with them.

Unwise
01-02-2008, 00:24
...Any variation is good, you could use infantry blocks with black gunners uniforms and make bagage wagon unit fillers, carts with barrels of powder, men carrying boxes/bags of eqiupment/shot etc.

Waralter could i imagine be a siege engine, small detachments could be forward observers with telescopes and optics.

I would go with blackpowder theme rather than gunline


Skank speaks the truth.

Keeping with his idea, here is my suggested army:

- A buttload of handgunners

- 3 units of standard infantry, at least one of halberdiers. Painted in Nuln colours. One has a unitfiller of the dwarven pony, one has a pile of cannonballs (small ballbearings/greenstuff) and one has a pile of barrells. No converting necessary.

- Huntsmen, give as many as possible telescopes, flares, flags etc. Painted in nuln colours, not as woodsmen. They are foward observers.

- Pistoleers x 2

- Outriders

- In larger games, a unit of greatswords to represent the elite guards of Nuln who look after the head engineers. Almost essential if you take an elector count, why would he be out without them?

- Engineers as characters, they suck horribly, but people will hate you if you take a themed army without them.

- A scroll caddy who is converted to look like a mecha-mage. Or better yet use the model for that old head mage, the one with the gold mask and exlir bottle. The engineers colledge would have lots of metal mages. Give him lore of metal to keep in the theme.

- At least 1 of each type of warmachine. Keep things interesting. Use the hellblaster, rocket thingy etc. It both keeps the army themed and makes it less boring.

By making an army like that, I think you could have quiet a bit of fun. You have 3-4 infantry units, 3 fast cav units and 1 lot of scouts. That lets you participate in the movement phase and combat phases.

Although you infantry will be pretty much sitting still, your scouts and cav will be interacting with the enemy, slowing them down and trying to get behind them for a combined charge when they get near your lines.

This means that the enemy is playing against you the whole time, and you will not just be sitting their rolling dice.

Despite the fact the above army is heavily themed, it would actually be quiet effective. Too many new players rely on shooting to win the day, but it fails when:
- The enemy have too many fast units
- You do not slow them down with scouts and fast cav, you rob yourself of more turns to shoot
- The enemy get Howler Wind off, or take some items that make shooting very hard.
- The enemy is a horde that takes such large units your shooting will never cause panic.
- The enemy is khorne or something else that only need 5 guys to reach you to wipe you out.

Hope that helps.

Lord Lucifer
01-02-2008, 05:53
Engineering School themes are awesome, but gunlines are boring as all heck (heck I tells ya!)
It's hard to engage with your opponent when his sole tactical decision is fire discipline and target priority. Simply sitting there and rolling dice isn't really that entertaining, and ignores a vast amount of the rules and mechanics of the game


So the trick is taking enough gunpowder to suit the theme, and not so much that your army becomes static.
Pistoliers and Outriders are great. A pair of artillery pieces and a pair of fast cav units is a worthy way to blow your Special unit allowance
Infantry blocks to protect your gunners are a good idea
And a Steam Tank, well, it's just nice to look at so I'd include it on that basis alone

Huntsmen I'd seriously consider taking for usefulness (and forward observers of the effects of artillery on enemy formations, as justification background-wise)

For a gunpowder theme, Dogs of War duellists were a helluva lotta fun when I used them



Just remember, static is boring, so include enough stuff to break it up

NakedBarbarian
01-02-2008, 06:11
I'd have to agree that playing against gunline armies is pretty boring. Once you've endured the inevitable nuking your last remaining troops proceed to butcher the enemy in droves...

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-02-2008, 06:18
You should be a good sport and play them, whatever they bring.

Why?
I'm under no obligation to entertain them. If I don't feel I'll have a fun game, tell me why I should waste a couple of hours of my time just because they want to do something?

That don't just apply to gunlines, but to any type of game you don't feel will be fun, ranging from just a stupid army(weak, powerful, doesn't matter) to a guy you don't like to play. Why should you waste your time doing that if you won't have fun?



I disagree. If I take a huge combat army (say, Orcs or Chaos with lots of knights) and just "Surge" forward, where is the tactics in that?

If you tried it you would soon find out as they are not really as easy as all that to get to work against a good opponent. For one thing, chaos can't bring enough troops to 'surge', and with Orcs, just getting them coordinated can be a challenge in itself. And that's before we are talking about the opponent countering your plans.



Or if I take a Magic heavy High Elf army with 15 power dice

And you will find that people complain about those armies too because again, they tend to not be that fun.


My point is, let people play whatever they feel like and don't discourage them.

Within limits, sure. But see my first reply. Your opponent is under no obligation to entertain you just because you would like him to, so when one asks, I think it would be doing him a disservice to pretent there isn't potential problems with playing that sort of army.




Besides, Gunlines are very difficult to win with consistantly. If you have a bad turn of shooting, your dead. It only takes one lone Khorne Knight to waste a whole unit of Handgunners.
Lets face it, gunlines are a part of the game, better learn to deal with them.

Why do some people always think it comes down to others not being able to beat gunlines? That's not the issue at all as far as I'm concerned.

The issue is that they IMO don't make for fun games, you know the whole reason we do this? I know perfectly well they can fold if they have a bad shooting phase, but again, how fun is that?

intellectawe
01-02-2008, 11:55
Why?
know perfectly well they can fold if they have a bad shooting phase, but again, how fun is that?

As fun as standard block armies.

"Oh wow, you have blocks of orks coming down the middle... again.... and you have flankers coming around the two tree templates... again.... and you have warmachines on a hill behind your force...again... "

Boring is subjective. Boring does not invalidate armies, because anyone could say your army is boring, this invalidating the fun from your army as well. Boring invalidates an army for YOU, but not for everyone.

I love fighting gun lines. They add a flavor of difference to the "Every army is just a variation of close combat dice" that Warhammer currently is.

Finnigan2004
01-02-2008, 15:15
I agree with Shank's point of view that there is entirely too much whining about other people's armies, and that in an ideal world people would just play the game. I should also say that I would play against a gunline, if you showed up with one. That said, I know more than a few people that would refuse a game because they do view it as boring. If you attend tournaments, you should also know that you will be drilled for comp. I always recommend proxying a gunline before using it to make certain that you will have fun too. In the end, if you like it and can find opponents, you should go for it.

EvC
01-02-2008, 15:39
Boring is subjective. Boring does not invalidate armies, because anyone could say your army is boring, this invalidating the fun from your army as well. Boring invalidates an army for YOU, but not for everyone.

Of course it's subjective- that's the nature of what it means to have a "personal opinion"! So if someone finds it boring to play against a gunline and chooses not to... that's their opinion, and it's perfectly valid. And all the while you're still free to play and enjoy those games. Problem?

I also note that earlier you said: "I'll play against a gun line. Those are auto wins for me."

So you're happy to play against gunlines because you have an army that can beat them easily. You think the win is the important part of the game, not the fun. Just so we're clear.

And before anyone says "you can't tell people how to play!"... we're not! It's shank who is telling us we should play games we don't enjoy or we're bad sports. That's the crux.

NB last night I did play a game where our opponents basically had a gunline, 4000 points including more than a half dozen war machines, about a dozen more shooting units and a few token bits of infantry. We were up by 1000 points at the end, and although it was a fun game, it was not fun spending 20 minutes waiting for our opponents to resolve their five guess-range weapons every turn. Especially when one of them couldn't read an artillery dice (Almost nobody can, there's always a good 30 degree misread- especially if it makes it more likely to veer into our troops)...

Warhammerrox
01-02-2008, 16:18
Don't let anyone discourage you from playing a gunline army. Players who say it is boring or powergaming just have to learn how to deal with this type of army. I don't understand why it is ok to go "Combat" heavy or "Magic" heavy, but when you go shooting heavy, people cry and throw up their arms. I like your idea of a engineer army and you should stick with it.
When playing against a gunline army, you have to use terrain and deployment to your advantage. Most players have a difficult time doing this. They line their armies up usually and charge forward. Then get mad when they get shot to bits.

I would just like to agree with this quote.

All infantry based shooting units in the game have been playtested, and yet GW have not yet seen fit to reduce them in any such way, ergo, this means all infantry based shooting units are balanced.

Maybe they consider the fact that shooting armies have...

A/ ...Difficult deployment issues.

B/ ...Lack of fighting power in the form of ranks and standards and armour.

C/ ...Poor 'To Hit' rolls on all turns of the game apart from when your enemy foot troops are stood in your short range zone for 1 turn only before they charge.

D/ ...Poor 'To Hit' rolls on most turns of the game before enemy heavy cavalry troops blast at you from miles away and smack your pathetic shooting units around in CC.

E/ ...Artillery that is not 100% reliable.


One of my friends who plays HE considers a shooting heavy list to be cowardly and totaly against the game ethic which is CC... But this is coming from an army that strikes 1st all the time, with a large amount of greatweapons, so you have zero inclination to engage them in CC...

To close, shooting units are playtested and just as balanced as all other aspects of the game, just like HE allways striking 1st was playtested and is balanced... So if anybody mentions the use of your guns, just mention the playtested balance of other things in the game, then bid them a good day...

Jack of Blades
01-02-2008, 16:24
Sigh, to the guy above... the thing isn't that they can't be beaten. They're easy to beat once you get how to do it, they're just very boring to face.

EvC
01-02-2008, 16:28
Thorek Ironbrow- 100% balanced. If anyone disagrees my dad will beat up their dad.

Malorian
01-02-2008, 16:31
Don't get me started on Thorek... of all the stupid... NO! Have to control the hatred... *blood vessel in eye pops...*

Zoolander
01-02-2008, 19:06
Well, unless you roll godly, its really hard to shoot down enough models to keep out of hand to hand ... granted I have never seen a true gunline in action so I could be wrong.

But the first 2-3 rounds would be at long range and then depending on the army, your only gonna get 1 maybe 2 round of shooting at close range.

You are wrong. :) I once faced a dwarven gunline with my brets. He had 5 guns + engineers for each one, + anvil of doom. On top of that, 3 units of riflemen (name?). It wasn't pleasant. By the time my knights across the table, only character remained (good old ward saves FTW). My characters mopped up, and his anvil rolled double ones and exploded his general, so I gained a marginal victory. But if I didn't have those ward saves, and if he hadn't blown himself up on turn 5, I would have died. I got lucky. The engineers pretty much ensured he was going to hit every time. Gunlines suck because there really is no defense except ward saves or regen, which blows. At least with heavy magic you have dispel dice and scrolls. With khorne chop chop CC type units, you have guns, bows, and cannons. What do you have vs. a gunline? Nothing. You could argue that flying units are good against them, but only vs. cannons and catapults. Repeater bolt throwers and volley guns rip through flyers. Tomb scorpions are nice, but sadly, few armies have such a unit (that can charge once they emerge). It's a broken list that really should be address. I don't think honestly you should be able to build a gunline. 2 warmachines should be the max for any army in 2k points (I.E. - make them all rare choices). The high elves bolt throwers should be 2 rares for one, so same effect. That's my opinion anyway.

Shank
01-02-2008, 23:20
Of course it's subjective- that's the nature of what it means to have a "personal opinion"! So if someone finds it boring to play against a gunline and chooses not to... that's their opinion, and it's perfectly valid. And all the while you're still free to play and enjoy those games. Problem?

I also note that earlier you said: "I'll play against a gun line. Those are auto wins for me."

So you're happy to play against gunlines because you have an army that can beat them easily. You think the win is the important part of the game, not the fun. Just so we're clear.

And before anyone says "you can't tell people how to play!"... we're not! It's shank who is telling us we should play games we don't enjoy or we're bad sports. That's the crux.


NB last night I did play a game where our opponents basically had a gunline, 4000 points including more than a half dozen war machines, about a dozen more shooting units and a few token bits of infantry. We were up by 1000 points at the end, and although it was a fun game, it was not fun spending 20 minutes waiting for our opponents to resolve their five guess-range weapons every turn. Especially when one of them couldn't read an artillery dice (Almost nobody can, there's always a good 30 degree misread- especially if it makes it more likely to veer into our troops)...

Yes, if you look at your opponents army and go "I don't like your army, I am going home" you are a poor sport and may I say, a Baby. You would rather pack up your stuff than enjoy a challenging game. Basically what you are saying is you only like playing against certain types of armies and if someone wants the pleasure of playing you, they had better come with a army that fits your criteria. Simply, very immature.


The reason your opponents shooting phase took so long was not too many guns, but the fact that you were playing a 4000 point game! 2500 points usually takes me a few hours, you must have been playing all day!

burad
02-02-2008, 14:45
To reduce the carping about your gunline, make it a little more historical. Make it similar to a pike and shot army. Using Empire troops, that means spear blocks with handgun or crossbow detachments. That will give you close combat infantry, and also have the benefit of making your handgunners less of a liability if they break for some reason. Add knights for offensive punch, a unit of greatswords for counterattacks, and a few bow armed skirmishers to supplement the outriders for more mobile firepower.

Kahadras
02-02-2008, 15:31
Yes, if you look at your opponents army and go "I don't like your army, I am going home" you are a poor sport and may I say, a Baby. You would rather pack up your stuff than enjoy a challenging game. Basically what you are saying is you only like playing against certain types of armies and if someone wants the pleasure of playing you, they had better come with a army that fits your criteria. Simply, very immature.

Personaly I don't think this is the case. Why the hell should I HAVE to play somebody if I'm going to find the experience unenjoyable? That goes for anything not just army list. Say I don't like playing against people who cheat. Does that make me a poor sport when I refuse to play against them? Or I don't like playing against people who are rude. Should I have to play them too? Just based on the fact that they want to play me?

Atr the end of the day is it so immature to say 'I don't think we'll get a good game out of this'? I'd say it was more immature to play the game, not enjoy it, then go home and whine about it on the internet. Competitive army builds are fine with me but if I haven't got an equaly competitive build then the point of playing drops somewhat IMHO.

Kahadras

Murdoch
02-02-2008, 23:41
Hmmm,

I actually agree with everything everyone has said on here.

But I have and do field a dwarven gunline. I don't find it boring to play with as people try to find ways to counter it and I am not saying that my variant is particuarly good. The gunline is a historically valid configuration. Napoleon and his cannons, until Wellington got his boys to lie down, is prob the most best example.

There are ways around the gun line.

1) It is static - use this against them. Minimise the number of shots they can get off
2) It is brittle in CC - So move around them and charge their flanks.

I am dreading the first wood elf player I find to play against with this. Skirmishing units and lots of fast cavalry!!! That is going to hurt!! And skinks. No one talk to me about skinks.

But I do appreciate that it can be a bit dull to play against (apologies to the brettonian player who killed two thunderers whilst I pillaged his entire army, I really didn't know what I was doing). So I am resolved to only field that list again if/when I get involved in another tournament. If not it is minimum missle, maximum muscle from clan Goldenhammer from now on!!

The Lord of Time
02-02-2008, 23:50
I was originally intending to do a engineered themed Dwarf gunline but have since changed to adding several CC elements. This is because I like to win through tactics but also the games could get a little monotonous. So just a question is gunline feasible and will people still play me if I use it?

Cragspyder
03-02-2008, 02:19
So just a question is gunline feasible and will people still play me if I use it?

General consensus seems to be 1. Yes, it is feasible and 2. No, no one will play you.

kris_kapsner
03-02-2008, 02:58
People don't like playing against gunlines because there is very little strategy to them. If you roll good you win. If you roll bad you lose. Tactics have almost nothing to do with your game.

Now, there are things that someone can tactically do to try to overcome a gunline. However, it is generally looked at as almost the "cheesiest" army someone can play.

Shank
03-02-2008, 04:02
Personaly I don't think this is the case. Why the hell should I HAVE to play somebody if I'm going to find the experience unenjoyable? That goes for anything not just army list. Say I don't like playing against people who cheat. Does that make me a poor sport when I refuse to play against them? Or I don't like playing against people who are rude. Should I have to play them too? Just based on the fact that they want to play me?

Atr the end of the day is it so immature to say 'I don't think we'll get a good game out of this'? I'd say it was more immature to play the game, not enjoy it, then go home and whine about it on the internet. Competitive army builds are fine with me but if I haven't got an equaly competitive build then the point of playing drops somewhat IMHO.

Kahadras

First off, people who play a gunline are not "cheaters". Second, people who play gunlines may or may not be rude. You have every reason not to play "cheaters" or "rude" players. This has nothing to do with gunline armies. ZERO. It is just a different aspect of the game. And to say gunline armies are "no tactics" type armies is just silly. To win with a gunline army it takes alot of tactics. Your army is very weak in close combat. You have to do everything to avoid Close combat. Choosing the right targets, flank shots with warmachines, deployment is extremely important part of a gunline army.
Is it a challenge to play against a gunline army, Yes. All the more reason to embrace it!
If you find it boring, it is probably too challenging for you. To pack your stuff up and leave because you don't like someone elses army is extremely arrogant and yes unsportsman-like. What is the worst thing that could happen? You lose, but learn a little more about how to handle this type of army.

Jack of Blades
03-02-2008, 10:10
Shank, why do you insist on ignoring the point?

Kahadras
03-02-2008, 10:15
First off, people who play a gunline are not "cheaters". Second, people who play gunlines may or may not be rude.

Did I say people who played Gunlines were cheaters? No. Did I say they were rude? No.


This has nothing to do with gunline armies. ZERO.

The point is, of course, that you can apply the 'you HAVE to play' theory to anything. You HAVE to play him because otherwise you're a bad sport no matter what he's like as a person.


And to say gunline armies are "no tactics" type armies is just silly. To win with a gunline army it takes alot of tactics. Your army is very weak in close combat. You have to do everything to avoid Close combat. Choosing the right targets, flank shots with warmachines, deployment is extremely important part of a gunline army.


I disagree with the 'alot of tactics' idea. With my balanced Empire army I have to choose the right targets for my missile troops, go for flank shots with my warmachines, protect my vunerable units from close combat and deployment is just as vital for any army as it is for a gunline.


If you find it boring, it is probably too challenging for you.

Lets try to move away from the 'you can't handle it' idea.


To pack your stuff up and leave because you don't like someone elses army is extremely arrogant and yes unsportsman-like. What is the worst thing that could happen? You lose, but learn a little more about how to handle this type of army.

How is it arrogant? How is it unsportsman like? What's your other option? Stay there and play a game you're not really keen on? IMHO that's even worse as all you're doing is tricking your opponant into thinking you're having a good time and if both people aren't having fun then you're breaking the most important rule which renders the whole game meaningless.

Better to find him an opponant who will enjoy playing against a gunline where both sides will have a good game. If I really wanted to 'handle' a gunline all I'd do is take my Bretonians and I still probably wouldn't enjoy the game.

Kahadras

Shank
03-02-2008, 14:20
Jack of Blades: How am I ignoring the point? I just don't agree with it. Oh, so I must be ignoring it.

Kahadras: In your original post you inferr that playing against a gunline is like playing against cheaters and rude people. Go back and read it.

To say to someone that you will not play them if they play a gunline army is unsportsman. It is not up to you what someone else wants to play and to force that on them is not fair. Can you say "I don't want to play you", sure, but you are being "unsportsman".
And yes, You probably "can't handle it". If you could, you would find it fun and play them over and over.

EvC
03-02-2008, 15:56
No Shank, your English is very poor, you misread Kahadras' post very badly, he did not imply anything of the sort. If you cannot understand our very simple English, then I suggest you ask us to be clearer before flaming us in response. He was giving other examples of the type of games people don't want to play. Put it this way: I don't like playing 40K, because I don't enjoy it. I could easily buy or borrow an army, yet if someone offers me a game, I won't play them. By your logic, I am a poor sportsman because I refuse to play them.

I do love the irony that you think we are somehow forcing our opinions on others if we make the choice not to play them, yet you are insulting us and telling us we must play against them. You are the one forcing your opinion on us, and it stinks.

Kahadras
03-02-2008, 15:56
In your original post you inferr that playing against a gunline is like playing against cheaters and rude people. Go back and read it.


...and if you bothered reading my post you'd have noticed that I put in this..


That goes for anything not just army list.

and then cited examples of what else would put me off playing (the forementioned rude people and cheats). Infact I've not even mentioned 'gunline' in my entire post. You've merely infered what you wanted from my post.


To say to someone that you will not play them if they play a gunline army is unsportsman. It is not up to you what someone else wants to play and to force that on them is not fair. Can you say "I don't want to play you", sure, but you are being "unsportsman".

It isn't up to me what other people play and I'm not forcing them to play anything. However it IS my choice whether I play against them or not and forcing people into games is just as 'unsportmanly' as turning people down. Basicaly by calling people 'unsportmanly', 'immature' and 'babies' you're just doing EXACTLY what people who moan on about cheese lists are doing; trying to force people into following your view of how the game should be played.


And yes, You probably "can't handle it". If you could, you would find it fun and play them over and over.

Smashing a gunline army through the floor with Bretonians for the first time is fun. The second time might be as well. Anything beyond that is a chore (and people with gunline armies start avoiding you for some reason).

edit: Damn EvC got in there first!

Kahadras

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-02-2008, 19:13
Why I refuse to play against Gunline armies.

They reduce my strategic and tactical options to running my troops hell for leather across the board and hoping I don't take too many casualties to make what little combat I'll see effective enough.

Now, had my opponent just taken a couple of bits of Artillery, then I have a bit more fun, carefully sussing out their lines of fire, and seeing if I can avoid them.

It's like Wood Elf players who refuse to play on a board with less than 3 woods before their free one, and all Skink Skirmishing forces.

All three of these force me to dance to their tune, which quickly renders the game an exercise in futility I would rather avoid playing.

Kahadras
03-02-2008, 19:30
And when did I insult you? You have insulted me, picking on my use of the English language. How dare you! If I had a glove I would give you such a smack!


I believe you insulted him here..


Yes, if you look at your opponents army and go "I don't like your army, I am going home" you are a poor sport and may I say, a Baby. You would rather pack up your stuff than enjoy a challenging game. Basically what you are saying is you only like playing against certain types of armies and if someone wants the pleasure of playing you, they had better come with a army that fits your criteria. Simply, very immature.


In which you called him a poor sport, a baby and immature.

At the end of the day it's down to individuals to decide how they want to play their hobby. IMHO people have the right to play what army they like but if they do decide on playing a highly competitive tournament build then they should be looking to play people with other tournament builds. Likewise people who decide not to play competitively shouldn't complain about losing to people who do play competitively.

Everybody has the right to decide on who they want to play. If you don't have a competitive list you shouldn't be brow beaten into playing competitive lists by accusations of 'cherry picking' and 'only playing lists you can beat'. Likewise if you do decide to play against it you shouldn't cry 'cheese' when you lose because you knew what you were getting into.

Kahadras

EvC
03-02-2008, 20:10
Wow, in all my time online, I've never been threatened with physical violence for having a different opinion. If you're anything like you are online Shank, then I severely doubt you have many opponents willing to play you. You're also on my ignore list, so please go nuts with your reply :)

W0lf
03-02-2008, 20:34
Lol.

dudes this guy is obviously joking.

Just laugh.. he cant be serious. No one could believe the twaddle he types.

Nice one Shank. You had them going hahahaha.


And no. Gunlines are incredibly boring. WH40K is a shooting game, Fantasy is a cc game.

FurryMiguell
03-02-2008, 20:37
wow wow wow! cant we all be friends? Itsnt that what warhammer is all about?(cept games-workshop making lots of money) Friends playing a fun and challenging wargame together? Peace my brothers!

Now, let us all join hands, make a chain, and dance. Oh, joy! No, we cant all be friends, but try guys. There are little kids using this forum, and if they see you guys yelling at each other, they will go out there adn do the same!

Madness from the mad FurryMiguell

Cheers:D

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-02-2008, 23:02
And just for the record, why should I play against someone who I know I'm not going to enjoy playing?

The people who play dull armies like Gunlines tend to be extremely bad losers, and even worse winners. So why do I want to play a game where I'll either be treated to a glimpse of the Incredible Sulk should I win, or have my opponent declare his greatness at pointing and clicking?

Put it this way, to me, the mark of a fun army to play against is when should it come up against it's mirror in a game, the outcome is down to the manouvres. Two Gunlines blasting away at each other devolve the game by taking out all but two of the phases, Shooting and Magic. Who the hell would want to play that? Both players, just standing there, aimlessly rolling dice and looking bored as they take off the odd model here and there?

Now, two identical, balanced armies (where theres a bit of everything going on) need not fight in an identical manner. Even if they have exactly the same spells, and a totally symmetrical board setup, the players will have very different ideas of how to best use their troops and terrain.

A balanced army exploits terrains, units out of position, gaps in lines, and capitalises on mistakes made by the enemy.

A Gunline however exploits and capitalises on the fact there is a no mans land I *have* to cross in order to win, and as I said earlier, reduces my tactical options to stegging it across said area as fast as I bloody well can. Clap clap clap. Aren't you a genius? I admire an opponent a damn sight more for out manouvering and out boxing me, rather than simply blowing my gonads all across the board for 6 turns of utter, utter banality.

I see a gunline, and I know whats going to happen. I can tell you pretty much how the game is going to turn out. So where the hell is the point in playing it?

It's the same with all Skink armies. I know I'm going to spend 6 turns with my troops desperately trying to get in position for a charge, all the while being shot up with depressingly effective weapons, and that should I actually manage a combat, knowing that it's utterly futile as the one or two units I actually manage to chin, knack and bray upon probably cost all of 10 points. DULL DULL DULL.

Wood Elves with a stupid number of woods...I'm going to get outmanouvered. I'm going to get picked off. And since I made the fundamental, tactical mistake of not playing an all Skirmish army, or indeed, another Wood Elf army, I don't really stand a chance and might as well just pack up and go home.

With the three above examples, no amount of experience can make a difference to the outcome. None at all. Other heavily themed armies however, can be overcome once you get over the initial shock of an unexpected composition. Dragons can be taken down quite easily, if you've fought them before. So can all Cavalry Bretonnians, as can SaD armies (never really had much a problem against them myself, though I can see why they aren't especially respected!). But Gunlines? What exactly does playing a gunline teach me? Oh yeah, I need to cross no mans land as fast as possible. But wait, my troops can't actually move any faster. Oh look, this is just like last time. I'm running, and I'm running, and I'm runn...never mind, I've been shot. YAWN!

At least half my tactics tend to be open ended ones, all the better to trick my opponent with. With my Dark Elf Monstrous Horde, I can hopscotch charge with my Dragon and Manticore, or if my opponent spots that, I have a back up location for them to move to, and another unit lined up with a possible exploitation charge. A good player keeps his opponent guessing. Did I really foil his plan? Or have I fallen into a trap? Did he really know I'd do that, or is he just being poker faced? If your opponent is befuddled with seemingly random movement, even if it has been deliberately random, your on the right track. Build in multiple threats, have various combinations planned out in your head, so your opponent won't see your entire tactical gamut laid out after a single game. But Gunlines? Oh, you shot my troops again. Didn't see that coming! Wonder what astounding tactical acrobatics your 4 Cannons will do next turn! Oh look! They shot me again! Who'd have though you'd do that! Seriously, Gunlines are the Warhammer equivalent of Westlife. Boring, turgid, done to death, and appealing to ******, with all the sophistication and appeal of a Mollusc slipping a roofie into your pint.

And after that epic tirade, I think it's time for glass of Red Wine. Need to calm down.

TheLionReturns
03-02-2008, 23:58
We spend a lot of time whinging about gunlines and cheesy army builds and often direct criticism at the players choosing these lists. I think we are being a bit unfair at times, or at least misdirecting our frustrations.

The biggest problem is that such lists are effective. I read endless criticisms about them being boring to play because they are one trick ponies with no tactical flexibility. Well the problem is not so much the players using this list but the system that allows one trick ponies to be useful. All it would take is to have varied and randomly determined scenarios for each battle. Take a simple king of the hill scenario (one army has a hill to defend the other has to get a unit in possession of it). A gunline may do a good job as the defender but has no way of winning really if the attacker. Therefore, it is not worth taking. Why not produce a range of scenarios and roll before each game. I see no reason why pitched battles are so popular. Where is the variation and the new challenge? Especially in tournaments where you face the same few powergaming lists over and over again.

This scenarios approach would work for tournament games. In casual games you can even tweak the scenarios to allow the themed/powergaming lists. Using the above scenario you allow the defender to be a gunline, but give the attacker a superior points allowance. Whilst a gunline will never really be tactical I can imagine that using one against a superior opposing force, desperately trying to hold out can be fairly dramatic and fun as a narrative.

We vent our frustrations at the player using the cheesy or boring lists, but GW should take some blame for not providing a system that has variety and therefore encourages balance. Also as a gaming community we should hold our hands up and accept responsibility for not acting ourselves and writing/publishing scenarios ourselves for general use.

Shank
04-02-2008, 03:39
Lol.

dudes this guy is obviously joking.

Just laugh.. he cant be serious. No one could believe the twaddle he types.

Nice one Shank. You had them going hahahaha.


And no. Gunlines are incredibly boring. WH40K is a shooting game, Fantasy is a cc game.

umm, thank you WOlf, but I am not kidding........

Shank
04-02-2008, 03:52
Wow, in all my time online, I've never been threatened with physical violence for having a different opinion. If you're anything like you are online Shank, then I severely doubt you have many opponents willing to play you. You're also on my ignore list, so please go nuts with your reply :)

One, it was a "glove", not real physical violence
Two, I am messing with you
Three, I run several leagues over here in the states and have tons of friends and gaming buddies....

Please, do not ignore me..... oh the pain.....

AzureDruchii
04-02-2008, 05:40
Where are you Shank because honestly, you sound lame

Gunlines do not take skill. Thorek doesnt not take tactics. Steam Tanks do not take strategy. All you do is point and shoot. Perhaps you need to think about the terrain but beyond that, it really isnt difficult...

As for your comment about having friends... well it sounds a little bit like some lyrics I know from a certain Streetlight Manifesto song "Whats the point denying when you know you are just lying to yourself"

-Rex :eek::D;):cheese:

Also, If you want to play a gunline in a tournament then I'm gonna hide all my **** behind terrain. And I'll knock you on comp and sports for being a douche, and you will lose so many points for that round that good luck getting any farther

p.s. All that is if you are being lame. If your a cool guy with some form of a theme I'll get masacered just to make you happy ^^

NakedBarbarian
04-02-2008, 06:31
wow this thread is really nasty...

You know, i play an opponent irrespective of what sort of army they are using. This is not to say that i agree with gunlines, on the contrary, i find them as insipid as a blank sheet of white paper. But i also learn alot from both the army and the player. 'Power-gamers' soon get a reputation for fielding OTT armylists, and most vets at my club will decline challenges. Not me. Because power players also happen to be the ones who have the biggest most hilarious wobblies - and tho when i play against these people 90% of the time i lose(i mainly take stuff because it looks cool) that 10% of the time when their hellstorm rocket artillerly misfires and explodes or their OTT uber geared engineer is picked off by flyers or skirmishes or a decision is made by GW staff that goes against them, and they go red in the face and loose it like a tantrum throwing 2 year old....That in my opinion is completely and utterly priceless.

Having said that by and large i much prefer to play against balanced armies, even if they have a particular theme(like artillery college or crusading all mounted brets) they can still have balance whilst being characterful. Let the baby have its bottle. If winning at all costs is really that important then it says something about their homelife. I have a nice car, nice family, nice girfriend and nice job - im more then content to take a competitive army, play my hardest, and lose to a superior general. Winning a game of warhammer is fun, but playing the game in itself for friendship and hobbying is far more entertaining. So like i said, let the baby's have their bottle, their character speaks loudly for itself, you don't need to complain about it being broken its like saying crap stinks, its not really necesary to say anything at all :)

FurryMiguell
04-02-2008, 06:32
"OH happy daay!" c'mon, sing along! Geez guys, just try getting up in the morning and think, im NOT gona make myself feel taller by saying 'unkind' things in a public forum...(im not saying anyone here are, just dont...)

Gunlines are not all that, but they are nasty, and not challenging to play. The only thing I accept when playing gunline, is that I get training fighting a gunline every time(good for tournaments). I agree with what has been said above though. Do senarios! Ive done some, and those are the most fun games Ive ever played:)

YES! FINALy someone gets it! You must field units because you like them! Because they look cool! THAT is fun! Whats more fun than seeing your beloved Chaos Knights slice through the enemy ranks? Watch you favouritte Chaos knight slice through enemy lines! (yea, im mad...)

Cheers:D