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bigbear bailey
31-01-2008, 17:24
Have any of you guys ever used the Spider banner or the Rowdeys rickety banner and if so what luck have you had with them? I was thinking the spider banner would be great for a big unit of gobos with spears but don’t you think that he is very easy to kill with how he is decked out? A wolf takes up to many swings compared to more gobos… Am I right?

Urgat
31-01-2008, 17:36
I only take the spider banner when I know I'll have to face a large target (dragons, giants, etc), and I slap it in a large unit of gobs with bows.
Big fun.

SrLobo
31-01-2008, 17:45
I am new to O&G but I don't think the spider banner is worth in an unit with spears (if I am not mistaken, the second rank will only attack if the unit hasn't moved -> you have been charged, and it is not difficult to lose and flee... bye banner). If I had to, I would use it in a big unit with bows instead (they are not very good at shooting, but at least you don't need to be in combat to have 10 posioned attacks), but, definitely, I prefer Rowdy Grott etc.. banner

Dranthar
01-02-2008, 05:30
I've always thought that it was a real pitty that all-goblin armies could feasibly take only one banner, and it tended to be on an easy to kill hero with average toughness and little armour. :rolleyes:

IF I take a banner it tends to be the "DONT PANIC!" banner (I forget the name :D). I also really like the idea of a spider banner, purely to stick in a unit of archers vs. large targets, although I've never tried it myself.

The rest of them are okay I guess, but when it comes down to it, the opportunuity to reroll panic tests in a goblin army is hard to pass up.

SilentTempest
01-02-2008, 07:01
I'm a Wood Elf player and my O&G opponent is quite the fan of putting the Spider Banner in a unit of 20 Night Goblin archers. I wouldn't say it's a game-winner, but it's pretty darn annoying because it makes them just that much more effective, such that I'm much less likely to take a chance charging a light unit into the front of them.

Avian
01-02-2008, 10:39
The Big Red Raggedy Banner is highly useful in an all-gobbo army. Place the BSB in a unit behind the front line and you will find that the 12" range covers a very good portion of your army.

The Spider Banner I would consider excessively expensive since you have to take it on a BSB. If it could be taken as a unit banner (and was a bit cheaper) I would consider it.

Urgat
01-02-2008, 10:49
Mmh, you need the BSB for the BRRB (:p) too, so what's the difference?
I'd never put it in a combat unit, only in a bow unit, preferably one with fanatics so people don't get TOO close, so it's a viable choice too.
The reroll on the panic test, for me, isn't really worth it. it means you get to reroll panick tests for units that will be outside the general's Ld test, and have to use their own miserable Ld instead (not that the general's ld is really less miserable), unless you stick them (general and bsb) in the same unit. But my general likes to run around my army to lend Ld where needed, he does not stick to one unit. That would defeat the point...
Well I'm kindda running my argument based on my own tactics there, it's not so smart, granted.

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
01-02-2008, 11:37
Actually, i would put the spider banner in a spear wielding night gobbo unit just for the heck of it, of course i'd couple it with a Ngob big boss too :p
Since Ngob big bosses can bea very efficient assassins if equipped correctly, and coupled with poison, probably painful, i have not tried it yet though

Avian
01-02-2008, 12:49
Mmh, you need the BSB for the BRRB (:p) too, so what's the difference?
I'd never put it in a combat unit, only in a bow unit, preferably one with fanatics so people don't get TOO close, so it's a viable choice too.
As I see it, you only get a bit of performance of the Spider Banner if it is in a combat unit - in a bow unit you are paying a heck of a lot of points for very little extra damage on average. And a git with the Spider Banner is more difficult to hide, since his unit must have a clear line of sight to the enemy, which a git with the Raggedy Banner doesn't need.



it means you get to reroll panick tests for units that will be outside the general's Ld test, and have to use their own miserable Ld instead (not that the general's ld is really less miserable), unless you stick them (general and bsb) in the same unit. But my general likes to run around my army to lend Ld where needed, he does not stick to one unit. That would defeat the point...
Not sure what you mean... Re-rolling panic tests on mediocre Leadership is a lot better than not being able to re-roll panic tests on mediocre LD values, is it not?

Personally I tended to take a unit of Snotlings, stick my shamans and BSB in the unit and place it behind my general's unit.

Philhelm
01-02-2008, 13:16
In a Night Goblin army under 2,000 points (with NG characters), is a BSB worth including? I know that it sounds crazy to even ask, due to the NG's pitiful Leadership, but...would I simply be failing a re-rolled break test anyway? Even if the general were within 12" of the unit, he would only provide a leadership of 6, before negative modifiers.

Braad
01-02-2008, 13:54
Partly derived from what I read here, I just came up with this tactic.

Take 3 blocks of about 30-40 night gobbo's (5-6 ranks, I think) with spears and put them next to each other, either with or without fanatics. Put in the odd character (not the general, I think, might be a bit dangerous, but keep him somewhere close!). Place one or more units of (archer) night gobbo's behind this (preferably on a hill), and load them up completely with fanatics. Place one in the middle behind the three blocks and put the BSB with the re-roll panic tests thing in this one, any additionals units next to this one.
Like this: (S=spear gobbo, B=bow gobbo, C=character with BSB)

SSSS SSSS SSSS
SSSS SSSS SSSS

BBBB BCBB BBBB
BBBB BBBB BBBB

Make sure that the front of the bowmen units is 6,5 inch from the front of the spearmen units. Now, wait for your opponents, when they succesfully charge they will be in range for the fanatics in the bowmen units when removed about 1,5" from the front of the spear units. You're pretty sure to roll enough to get the fanatics in the spearmen units, and when they pop out 1" away on the other side, guess what they encounter over there... The freshly charging enemy! Guaranteed hit!

What do you guys think of this? Won't it work, tricksy trap worthy of Night gobbo's or a bit too mean?

Probably best against the more elite units, like knights or elves.

Philhelm
01-02-2008, 14:47
What if you reversed that with shortbows in the front and the spearman in the rear with the fanatics?

Urgat
01-02-2008, 15:15
As I see it, you only get a bit of performance of the Spider Banner if it is in a combat unit - in a bow unit you are paying a heck of a lot of points for very little extra damage on average. And a git with the Spider Banner is more difficult to hide, since his unit must have a clear line of sight to the enemy, which a git with the Raggedy Banner doesn't need.

Well, I see only one use for the banner: slaying large targets. hence the bows: all your poisoned bows can shoot large targets, so unless you're very unlucky with your dies, it should hurt. If I need to get in contact with the enemy to use the banner, it means that (usually) you have to test for fear/terror, most of my targets of choice do either, so I'd rather take the benefit of poison from a distance, and actually multiply the number of chances to get a poisoned hit.



Not sure what you mean... Re-rolling panic tests on mediocre Leadership is a lot better than not being able to re-roll panic tests on mediocre LD values, is it not?
Well, my opinion is exactly the same as Philhelm on this matter: even with the reroll, there's little chance you'll pass the test anyway, so is it really better? I'm not so sure.


Personally I tended to take a unit of Snotlings, stick my shamans and BSB in the unit and place it behind my general's unit.

I was under the impression characters couldn't join snot units. I've checked my armybook but nothing says so, so I'm probaly wrong. It could be worth considering, but still, my general is on a wolf, and "unit jumping", so unless I do the same with the BSB, the reroll will be rather pityful.

Well on the whole, anyway, I tend to just not take any BSB (unless I know I'll be facing a nasty monster), and have one more dispell shaman instead.

Jack of Blades
01-02-2008, 15:19
Under the rules for swarms in the BRB, IIRC it says characters can't join them.
A new magic item which lets you take up to 3 models or 5 models if they're all swarms (that includes yourself) and make a unit of them would probably be welcomed as a general magic item :)

Urgat
01-02-2008, 15:20
Now, wait for your opponents, when they succesfully charge they will be in range for the fanatics in the bowmen units when removed about 1,5" from the front of the spear units. You're pretty sure to roll enough to get the fanatics in the spearmen units, and when they pop out 1" away on the other side, guess what they encounter over there... The freshly charging enemy! Guaranteed hit!

This is a tactic called the fanatic catapult. Problem is, one smart lad can just trigger the fanatic with something worthless, and you'll end up getting the fanatics very close to your spearmen in the next phase. Now if you're unlucky and roll a 6 on the animosity test in the next turn, you'll be sure to step on the fanatics, taking an additional 2D6 S5 hits, destroying your own fanatics, and, this time, really hurting a unit that has already taken some damage on the previous turn. It will probably work once, but the second time, your opponent will know better.

Avian
01-02-2008, 15:21
Under the rules for swarms in the BRB, IIRC it says characters can't join them.
I seriously doubt that the Swarm rule says any such thing*, but I can check when I get home.


* because the only Swarm-related rule in the book that I know of only deals with Unbreakable Swarms and how they take extra casualties from combat results.

Jack of Blades
01-02-2008, 15:22
Well I have read it somewhere, I'll check again.

Jack of Blades
01-02-2008, 15:26
All right Avian, I think you're right. :)

Urgat
01-02-2008, 15:32
I don't really know how swarms work anyway, but is there a "swarm" rule? Because snots don't have that, it's never mentioned they're swarms in the armybook, so if there is to be a swarm rule, well, snots are not a swarm to begin with. They're just stubborn.

Avian
01-02-2008, 16:06
The rulebook doesn't have a Swarm rule as such, and Snots aren't labeled 'swarms' anywhere either. The rulebook only has an entry for Unbreakable Swarms (as a subset of the unbreakable rule) and otherwise swarms just work like any other multi-wound model.

Braad
02-02-2008, 17:58
This is a tactic called the fanatic catapult.

Really? I understood the fanatic catapult was something completely different...

You say there is a large chance you kill lots of your own gobbo's. So? Whats the point?

Theres plenty of them anyway :)

About the bows in the front... could be nice, stand&shoot, then let them run and the enemy runs into the spears. If you don't fail the panic test twice, of course.

Hmm...
I must admit its not the best tactic, but good for a laugh once or twice :)

Urgat
02-02-2008, 18:44
Really? I understood the fanatic catapult was something completely different...
You're probably thinking of the fanatic slingshot, when you wheel/reform to get a super long unit that sends your fanatics far into the enemy lines?


You say there is a large chance you kill lots of your own gobbo's. So? Whats the point?

Theres plenty of them anyway :)
Well, sure, but if you lose 3D6 gobs (that's a lot, even for large units of gobs) AND the fanatics in the process, I don't see much advantage in doing that, really. This doesn't hurt the enemy one bit. Really, the only instance when the fanatic catapul is a good idea is when, say, you have a unit of gobs that has been charged by a nasty unit (heavy cavalry or infantry, or ogre-sized units), then, you're sure the fanatics will do nasty damage AND you won't step on them in the next turn. Otherwise, it's really risky, for little if any benefit.

Braad
03-02-2008, 14:06
I've seen topics were the catapult was described as what you call the slingshot. But I guess there isn't a dictionary that will actually tell us which one is which, so that doesn't really matter...

Its all about risks. If you don't take any, you don't win (except if you field dwarves with 20 cannons, of course).