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MattKienbaum
31-01-2008, 18:07
Two things to know about me, I love fluff and I hate loosing badly. I don’t mind loosing; I just don’t like to be whipped into a smooth past and smeared all around the table as a snack, who does. I don’t like winning this way either. So this is going to be my first tournament. Unfortunately for me, I have played for 3 years against several opponents. ALL CHAOS!! I want a descent comer takes all army that I can Theme up a bit. This is my first attempt so pleas give me all the help and suggestion you can. What are my weaknesses and what do I have to fear from other armies.

Waldemar’s Todeshändler

Lords
Waldemar The bastard (The illegitimate son of an elector count. He has vigilantly kept the secret of his father’s identity but his well-financed education and the quality of his armor suggest a man of wealth and importance. Gaining some renown in the Storm of Chaos he has become a Mercenary with Purpose making friends with the church and nobility he fights for and an enemy of the chaotic north.)
General of the Empire 80
Shield 3
Barded Warhorse 21
Dragon bow 25
Dawn Armor 35
164

Heroes
Gustaf Brant (A highly intelligent boy with no future, Gustaf the fifth sun of a farmer pleaded with the church for admittance. After less than one year in the clergy he was expelled for arguing with the lector. Discovering he was really interested in magic not faith Gustaf searched for a patron to send him to Altdorf, none would help. Desperate, he joined the army to raise the money himself and fought the Storm of Chaos where he met Waldemar. After two years Waldemar convinced his farther to sponsor Gustaf anonymously. Recently graduating Gustaf returned to Waldemar and joined the Todeshändler.)
Battle Wizard X1 65
Dispel Scroll 25
Wizards Staff 10
100

Gunter Berg (The first stanch ally and friend Waldemar found in his struggle to belong somewhere. Found near death in the battle for Middenheim Gunter healed Waldemar and saved him from the grave. Later that same day Waldemar returned the favor and the two men became inseparable.)
Warrior Priest 90
Barded Warhorse 14
Heavy Armor 4
Enchanted Shield 15
Biting Blade 5
Doom Fire Ring 30
158

Hedwig Eichel (A friend of Gunter from Seminary school. Looking for greater purpose he joined the group recently after Waldemar’s men passed through his home town on the way to fight some Marauders Raiding in Nordland.)
Warrior Priest 90
Great weapon 4
Armor of Meteoric Iron 25
Dispel Scroll 25
144

Total Heros 566
-----

Core 3+
Swords Men X24 FC 169
Det Archers X5 40
Det Halberdiers 50
259

Hedwig’s unit
Spearmen X23 FC+shilds 158
Det Archers X5 40
Det Halberd X10 50
248

Gunter’s Unit
Knights X5 FC 155

Special 0-4

Waldemar’s Unit
Knights Of the IC X5 FC 170

Gustaf’s Unit
Greatswords X20 FC 230
Det Archers X5 40
Det Halberd X10 50
320

Pistolers X5 Mus+out w/rep 114

Great Cannon 100

Rare 0-2
Helblaster Volly Gun 110

Giant 205
---------
Total troops 1681

Total Army 2247
Please help

Malorian
31-01-2008, 18:57
It's interesting and really good fluff. For sure a well rounded list.

I'd cut some points to make Gustaf a lvl 2 mage, other wise you'll have a powerdice you can't use. Not to mention that more magic will give those priests a better chance to get their spells off.

happy_doctor
31-01-2008, 20:40
Malorian: His wizard has the wizard's staff; he can use all powerdice available, although your comment still stands as far as effectiveness is concerned..

MattKienbaum:

Let's start by saying that i really like this force...It's balanced, and the fluff is great as well.
Some minor tweaks:

-Hedwig Eichel can't take a dispel scroll, as warrior priests haven't got access to arcane items.

-Your wizard could use the level upgrade. Since you have to drop the dispel scroll from Hedwig, you can make the 35 points for the level by dropping wizard's staff (which will be useless now, since you already can cast with 3 powerdice).

-How do you justify the dragon bow on the General? Since he's joining the IC knights, he'l be marching and charging a lot...Which doesn't really leave much space for shooting. He would be far better off with a magic weapon such as the Hammer of Judgement (=knight killer). At least give him a lance!!

-In my opinion you really should make use of the magic banner option on some of your units. A Steel Standard and the Warbanner on the knights are good choices.

-Ignore this if you feel it ruins your background: A BSB would help a lot, as you've got 2 stubborn units (giant and greatswords) and a lot of infantry...

-The giant is a good choice, but you must make sure that you get to his warmachines fast. Thankfully, the great cannon is perfect for this task. If you neutralize the enemy shooting early on, your giant can work wonders for you.

-Warrior priest on horse: I'd much rather have a sword of might and a regular shield (for a 2+ save) than biting blade... S5 will bring him on par with your knights and allow him to deal some extra damage.

-Is there any particlular reason as to why you're fielding a general instead of the grand master? Is it the background? Because the grand master is slightly more expensive, but is a better fighter as well.

Caboose123
31-01-2008, 21:54
Okay, nice list and great fluff, I would change some things with the list, mainly points scrounging here and there :)

Im not sure if the foot priest can use a dispel scroll, he is not a Lv wizard, either way 1 guy with a dispel scroll should be plenty. Otherwise he is fine, although you could toy around with 2 Hand weapons...

It might be worthwile making your priest Lv2, even if you take the Lv1 spell as well as something else, you can attempt to cast both spells each turn (1 dice into Lv1 spell and 3 dice into the other) Bear's anger would be my preference due to having my faveroute Lv1 spell.

The General is not made for fighting, thats clear, and i would take away the bow, he could slow your infantry by 1" a turn to get some shots, or you could save the points and put on an orb of thunder, this would help you magic department, this bound spell, has to be dispelled if they have flyers such as screamers or terradons, you may onsider it an item that loses your opponent 1 dispel dice a turn, or seriously hinder him. Or you could risk giving him an item such as sword of fate, and have him helping the squad, either way, drop the bow and add the orb.

You may want to join your general with your non-inner circle knights :eek: atm, what reason does your opponent have to fire at the normal knights, dividing the power could get your opponent to split its fire, i also agree that a grand master could be better joining these units (with laurels of victory... :))

I would replace the hellblaster, it is best used for short range, or on a hill, which should be occupied. Your force will be moving forward (by the looks of it) so it may be at less than optimum effeciency.

The giant is handy.


Overall its a strong force, although i doubt your heros/lords equip. Your infantry will march forward, and your mounted troops will threaten flanks and absorb the majority of the firepower. You have plenty of magic defense, and are fast enough to threaten shooting armies (although they may shoot down your knights). The only problem is that the knights charging head on will not be able to do much, and if eliminated quickly may leave your infantry outmaneuvered and stranded. As i said,its a good list, HAPPY HUNTING!!!

MattKienbaum
01-02-2008, 12:32
Waw. That was a lot of helpful Bits of information. I'm working on revisions now. Has any body used The DOW Bronzino’s Galloper Guns? Would this mobal cannon be a good choice in this army?

Okuto
01-02-2008, 12:44
Galloper guns are lovely little buggers. But I rather use them in a more mobile cavalry force than what you're running.

They shoot, pack up and run, shoot again, rinse and repeat......
They're good, but I like to have alot of fast stuff to keep the heat off of them, course you can just suicide charge Bronz to save the cannon which I've done on many ocasion, he's a decent figher for a guy with one leg.

Just a matter of taste

MattKienbaum
01-02-2008, 13:51
Well hear is a bit of a different list. There have been several Magic Item changes and some reworking of the troops. What do you think of the changes?

Waldemar’s Todeshändler

Lords
Waldemar The bastard (The illegitimate son of an elector count. He has vigilantly kept the secret of his father’s identity but his well-financed education and the quality of his armor suggest a man of wealth and importance. Gaining some renown in the Storm of Chaos he has become a Mercenary with Purpose making friends with the church and nobility he fights for and an enemy of the chaotic north.)
Templar Grand Master 145
Hammer of Judgment 25
Dawn Armor or
White Cloak 35 Suggestions?
204

Heroes
Gustaf Brant (A highly intelligent boy with no future, Gustaf the fifth sun of a farmer pleaded with the church for admittance. After less than one year in the clergy he was expelled for arguing with the lector. Discovering he was really interested in magic not faith Gustaf searched for a patron to send him to Altdorf, none would help. Desperate, he joined the army to raise the money himself and fought the Storm of Chaos where he met Waldemar. After two years Waldemar convinced his farther to sponsor Gustaf anonymously. Recently graduating Gustaf returned to Waldemar and joined the Todeshändler.)
Battle Wizard L2 100
Dispel Scroll 25
125

Gunter Berg (The first stanch ally and friend Waldemar found in his struggle to belong somewhere. Found near death in the battle for Middenheim Gunter healed Waldemar and saved him from the grave. Later that same day Waldemar returned the favor and the two men became inseparable.)
Warrior Priest 90
Barded Warhorse 14
Heavy Armor 4
Enchanted Shield 15
Biting Blade 5
Doom Fire Ring 30
158

Hedwig Eichel (A friend of Gunter from Seminary school. Looking for greater purpose he joined the group recently after Waldemar’s men passed through his hometown on the way to fight some Marauders Raiding in Nordland)
Warrior Priest 90
Great weapon 4
Armor of Meteoric Iron 25
119

Total Heroes 607

Core 3+

Swords Men X24 FC 169
Det Archers X5 40
Det HalberdX6 30
239

Hedwig’s unit
Spearmen X23 FC+shilds 158
Det Archers X5 40
Det Halberd X6 30
228

Gunter’s unit
Knights X5 FC 155

Special 0-4
Waldemar’s Unit
Knights Of the IC X5 FC 170

Gustaf’s unit
Greatswords X20 FC 230
Det Halberd X6 30
260

Pistolers X5 Mus+out w/rep 114

Great Cannon 100

Rare 0-2
Bronzino & 1 Galloper Gun 165

Giant 205
---------
Total Troops 1636

Total
--------
2243

I have these 7 points to spare. I know I can just grab another spear or something but I would like suggestions on how to finish up. Thanks again for all the help Guys.

Caboose123
02-02-2008, 00:08
Honestly, i dont like the list now either :(

Th galloper guns are just cannons at the end of the day, as long as you have 2 cannons on a hill/ or in an area were you can get LoS you dont need them, they are handy for enfilading shots though (Shooting across the side of a rank, guaranteeing more hits against knights and ogres and the like.)

The hero selection looks like its heading towards magic heavy, and i would still consider the orb of thunder. The equip on your templar is somewhat confusing, i would go for holy relic and laurels combo, rely on these and his lance to win a combat, if you're fighting a character, the sword of fate could be handy, its cheap and in 2k games just nominate their lord... (I think dawn armour is better than the cloak). The warrior priest could live without the biting blade, hes not really there to fight, he confers abilities and prayers. The Wizard could keep his staff, but thats not essential.

I would switch the heroes postions, the warrior priests mainly, who IMHO, should be in either knight units or greatswords, to get the most of their hatred, the battle wizard could hide in the normal infantry.

The detachments (mainly the combat ones) should be 10 men strong.

Greatswords could use another 5 people as well, they are still rather easy to shoot, although your knights will be taking most of the hits.

Anyway, most of my previously posted things still apply, its a good core of a list, with some general tweaking needed, IMHO...

happy_doctor
02-02-2008, 15:02
The changes you made are interesting.
I like the new character set up (I agree that the dawn armour is usually better than the white cloak).
Some thoughts:

-the warrior priest on foot is great for the spearmen, as his hatred can help them a lot. I think that the greatswords can hold their own just fine without a character or extra bodies.

-What caboose said about detachments is right; at the moment, it only takes two casualties to render them useless. 9 or 10 is way better. However, you have many juicy targets for the opponent to direct his shooting at, so he might overlook the detachments... (archer are perfect 5-strong, no need to add more models to a decoy)

-Galloper guns: to be honest, I've no experience whatsoever with them. Still, I find them intriguing; the ability to sprint down a flank, supported by pistoliers, then fire at the flank of the enemy, is great! On the other hand, 165 points is steep for a s7 cannon...Think about it: 40 points more, and you could get another giant!! You could try a helstorm rocket, it's cheaper and potentially destructive. Alternatively, you could just buy a dogs of war cannon and use the spare points to bump your detachments a bit.

Caboose123
03-02-2008, 00:33
Im not sure about the priest, admittedly he could be handy with the spearmen, as they can get a lot of attacks if they survive getting charged relativley unscathed, but they're T3 with a 5+ save, and still only S3. The greatswords can't hold their own against other armies elite troops, such as swordmasters and chosen warriors, still thats just my thoughts on this matter.

I still dont like galloper guns really, I would go for a giant (as he said) or the more attractive more cannons (empire ones...)! They can get an enfilading shot on a unit, but is that worth the extra 85 points or so you're spending? I dont think so, not when a giant can squash them, or knights can impale them.

Good luck with the list anywho...

MattKienbaum
03-02-2008, 18:48
You guys have been incredibally helpfull. I got the chance to play a parsial game this weekend using this army angainst an Wood elf army. I had never played them before. I have come to think I need A BSB and have agree that i need to strengthing the Detachments if possible, but where do I get the points. the gallaper gun wes usles (dead 1st round)bad placment but Borinzingo pulled fire and almost paid for the unit. I plann to expermint with it moor, so for now I'm keeping it. if i drop it it will be for a HBVG.
Any thoughts?