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AdmiralDick
31-01-2008, 22:40
okay, so JJ and Gav T have basically said that they may or may not ever get round to producing a codex (or codexes) for the Traitor Legions.

a lot of people say they were unhappy with the 3.5 ed codex because the legion lists were to 1-dimensional. others have said that they were happy with the way that codex represented them, but feel the current one does not offer enough specialism to give them real flavour. so clearly no one feels that the Legions have been given enough character in terms of game play.

so, assuming that there is going to be a book/books for the Chaos Legions (which is a big assumptions, but one necessary for this discussion) how do you think each of the Legions should be treated. what should be included in their lists to give them enough flavour but not leave them one dimensional.

discuss...

PotatoLegs
31-01-2008, 22:46
Divided into 5 sections, each one for the different gods, plus undivided. Within that you should get all the army options you'd need to make any chaos army of any faction, without having a seperate special rule for each legion, and gives you plenty of scope to move onto subsequent Traitor-Chapters....

Though that's maybe not divergent enough from the current Chaos codex....


...LATD perhaps?

EVIL INC
31-01-2008, 22:56
Much as they are now. Differences I would add to "fix"...
1. Do away with the icon and just have each marine cost more points. Give them each to the actual mark with full benefits.
2. Allow the actual daemons to be used rather then generic ones. However, make the daemon units a 0-1 choice 5- 10 modls in the unit.
3. Add a few more specialized (but not many like 5 tops per "cult") items for your army general/DP.
4. Tzeentch (although I feel the new rules for empty armor TS are bogus, go ahead and keep them. Just allow them to carry heavy/special weapons in thier havok units only and to ride bikes ect.
5. Give EC marines back thier full complement of sonic weaponry. just limit it to havok squads.

I know I coul come up with more, but mty mind is not focusing well right now.

Rioghan Murchadha
31-01-2008, 23:24
4. Tzeentch (although I feel the new rules for empty armor TS are bogus, go ahead and keep them. Just allow them to carry heavy/special weapons in thier havok units only and to ride bikes ect.


Well, they aren't likely to give us back our thrall wizard bands and such, but I have to disagree with the whole bike squad thing.. Rubric marines have trouble walking in a straight line on flat ground, I can't even begin to imagine how badly they'd ride a motorcycle...

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-01-2008, 23:46
All the Cult Legions need their units back. I'd say:

Death Guard: Give them their Termies back. And Chosen. Vehicles need a booster to make them unique to that Legion.

World Eaters: Give them their Termies back. Chosen too. Vehicles here should get some sort of upgrade too.

Thousand Sons: Need more Termies. Perhaps a sort of Sorceror Choir unit? Again, vehicles.

Emperor's Children: Terminators, Havocs, Chosen, vehicles. Make them Emperor's Children again.

Raptors, Oblits, Possessed, etc. should still be open. Able to use God-specific Daemons. Actually, I think this should extend to all Chaos Marines, but I'll not rant here.

As for the Undivided Legions: Some kind of Veteran Crew upgrade for vehicles.

Word Bearers: More access to all kinds of Daemons. Something to set the Dark Apostle apart, but give it a decent points cost so people have to decide: Is this points level worth a Dark Apostle's leadership?

Alpha Legion: Less access to Daemons, cultists (of course) who can use Icons.

Night Lords: If the other Legions have limited access to Daemons, more access to Furies for Night Lords.

Iron Warriors: Some sort of option to take fortifications. A servo-arm/harness option on Lords and such.

Black Legion: Whatever they want, I guess.

I think that certain squads of all Legions, like Chosen and Terminators, who are generally composed of the vets of the actual Siege, should get some access to skills, but not what was rampant in the other Codex. Other squads not so much, because we don't want the all-infiltrating army of flying plasma doom again.

Also I think there should be LatD. /blatant plug

Captain Micha
31-01-2008, 23:48
Ec should have a rule called fops, where they get a pretty bonus 6+ invunerable save....

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-02-2008, 00:01
Ec should have a rule called fops, where they get a pretty bonus 6+ invunerable save....

Now now, Micha, no need to be cruel...

You'll hurt their feelings. :p

EVIL INC
01-02-2008, 12:42
Well, they aren't likely to give us back our thrall wizard bands and such, but I have to disagree with the whole bike squad thing.. Rubric marines have trouble walking in a straight line on flat ground, I can't even begin to imagine how badly they'd ride a motorcycle...
I still disagree with the whole rubric thing but I see them as being a little like wraithgaurd (notthe same I know), making the biker squad take a sorcerer champion like the reguler foot sloggers would be an idea to help them "stay focused" Actually, Each unit should have to take one. They altered the fluff to make the rubrics, what would be wrong with altering back towwards the original for them a lil bit and say that more then just sorcerers we able to withstand the rubric spell? That would account for bikers and such.

All the Cult Legions need their units back. I'd say:

Death Guard: Give them their Termies back. And Chosen. Vehicles need a booster to make them unique to that Legion.
World Eaters: Give them their Termies back. Chosen too. Vehicles here should get some sort of upgrade too.
Thousand Sons: Need more Termies. Perhaps a sort of Sorceror Choir unit? Again, vehicles.
Emperor's Children: Terminators, Havocs, Chosen, vehicles. Make them Emperor's Children again.
Raptors, Oblits, Possessed, etc. should still be open. Able to use God-specific Daemons. Actually, I think this should extend to all Chaos Marines, but I'll not rant here.
As for the Undivided Legions: Some kind of Veteran Crew upgrade for vehicles.
Word Bearers: More access to all kinds of Daemons. Something to set the Dark Apostle apart, but give it a decent points cost so people have to decide: Is this points level worth a Dark Apostle's leadership?
Alpha Legion: Less access to Daemons, cultists (of course) who can use Icons.
Night Lords: If the other Legions have limited access to Daemons, more access to Furies for Night Lords.
Iron Warriors: Some sort of option to take fortifications. A servo-arm/harness option on Lords and such.
Black Legion: Whatever they want, I guess.
I think that certain squads of all Legions, like Chosen and Terminators, who are generally composed of the vets of the actual Siege, should get some access to skills, but not what was rampant in the other Codex. Other squads not so much, because we don't want the all-infiltrating army of flying plasma doom again.
Also I think there should be LatD. /blatant plug
Giving each model in the army the "full mark" (for a few extra points of course would fix the terminater and chosen and such.
Nurgle vehicle upgrade...+1 armor on each side.
World Eater vehicle upgrade, blades on a tank shock, add a negative to the victoms roll. If they fail, they need to take hit and an armor roll to avoid being wounded.
Thousand sons, I like the sorcerer choir unit. Maybe make them a pie plate barrage ifthe unit has 5 or more. reguler blast template if 4 or less. Vehicle upgrade, each vehicle able to "shoot" the doombolt spell.
Emporers children, Sonic weaponry I already covered, Vehicle upgrade, Any enemy unit within 6 inches get a -1 to hit in close combat/shooting.
Word bearers, able to summon 0-2 units of daemons of any kind (generic or godspecific), regain the dark apostle.
Alpha legion, 0-1 units of cultists. If cultists taken, a unit of daemons may be summoned (0-1 and generic)
Night Lords, give the hit hand run to thier raptors and anyone in the army with awings/jump pack.
Iron Wariors, Servo arms, ability to buy defensive fortifications.
Black legion, ability to summon 0-1 daemons of any flavor. Able to mix and match marks.
I agree with the LotD plug.

Deus Mechanicus
01-02-2008, 14:11
I'd definatly want to see cultist for Alpha Legion

TheLionReturns
01-02-2008, 14:13
Well I think that I would like to see individual codexes. However, there are a lot of legions and this may not be feasible. Firstly I think that the Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Emperors Children should get their own codexes. I would like an effort made to make these distinct from the main chaos list. I would argue that perhaps there should be no obliterators and raptors and instead you should get a real range of alternative marked units not available in the main list. I personally don't think its enough to have a codex similar to others but with minor differences. I would like some real distinctiveness in here to show chaos in all its varied glory. I would see these codexes not only as legion codexes but ones for the powers they represent in the 40K universe. Accoringly I would see these being used as the main background source for each chaos power.

The World Bearers, Night Lords and Iron Warriors, could potentially be placed in a single book. Without the need for space detailing the chaos powers it may be possible to combine them into a single publication. I would like to see them have separate lists however, rather than different options from one. I think getting as much variation between legions is best and most fitting for chaos.

The Alpha Legion could be combined with a LatD book. They provoke rebellion and make use of cultists so it would seem to fit reasonably well.

The Black Legion meanwhile I dont think should get special treatment. The problem is that if you allow them to pick from all the lists they could become really powerful. I think the variety and limits of the current lists works adequately for them.

As far as specifics go

Word Eaters: I'm not sure I see havocs and predators here. Jump pack troops, terminators, bikers and some crazy death dealing khorne machines with lots of blades on would be interesting.

Thousand Sons: Need their terminators of course, and perhaps some heavy weapons access. I think jump troops and bikers should be avoided. Some form of sorceror cabal (thinking along the lines of seer council) seems a good idea. Perhaps some sort of sorcerous artillery type thing would be good.

Emperors Children: They seem about firepower now but when I think Emperors Children I think of the martial pride at close quarters displayed by lucius. I think some form of elite close combat option would be good. The Emperors Children were also known for their precise coordinated attacks so I think building good mobility into the lists is essential for reflecting their character.

Death Guard: I find these difficult to envisage. I get the idea of relentless assault, which perhaps leans away from bikes and jump packs, and even heavy weapons to an extent, but focuses on lots of durable troops. I am thinking that perhaps something to make their Rhinos more durable would be a good trait (and perhaps their other vehicles).

Okuto
01-02-2008, 14:26
As long as I get my cultists back , I'm happy.....but I'd really like it if GW included alot of the latd choices into Alpha legion. It makes alot of sense, Alpha legion usually has the local forces turned traitor do most of the fighting anyhow....just limit our daemons done.....my latd need a home......It saved me alot of money to just stick my mutants into my alpha legion and just count them as cultists

LordFulgrim
01-02-2008, 15:02
Good comments in this thread, except for the "fops save" *sighs and flicks hair back*.
For EC I would definitely want more options for noise weapons on terminators, dreadnoughts etc. Some good cc-troops would also be nice because I just don't see it as an let's just stand here and shoot army.
I'd also like to keep playing with my raptors; the last true EC-list excluded raptors for some reason.

Cuda
01-02-2008, 15:11
okay, so JJ and Gav T have basically said that they may or may not ever get round to producing a codex (or codexes) for the Traitor Legions.

a lot of people say they were unhappy with the 3.5 ed codex because the legion lists were to 1-dimensional. others have said that they were happy with the way that codex represented them, but feel the current one does not offer enough specialism to give them real flavour. so clearly no one feels that the Legions have been given enough character in terms of game play.

so, assuming that there is going to be a book/books for the Chaos Legions (which is a big assumptions, but one necessary for this discussion) how do you think each of the Legions should be treated. what should be included in their lists to give them enough flavour but not leave them one dimensional.

discuss...


I was always inclined to have Chaplains for Khorne simply by preaching the gospal of skull-splitting.
Alpha Legion that don't look like Chaos.
Night Lords that are swift like Dark Eldar.
Bring Back the Beam of Slaanesh.
Some killer Psychic powers for Tzeentch, no more wimpy warp stuff.

Cuda...

AdmiralDick
02-02-2008, 08:13
Firstly, i just want to say thanks to everyone who's participated already inspite of split opinion between Warseers i think we all have a common ground in that we'd like to see more. so its really cool to see people getting the creative juices flowing and sparking ideas off one another.

secondly, i left the question quite open and its really interesting to see how people have interpreted the idea. a lot of people have been very conservative with the suggestions, restricting them to either only fairly minor (one might even say superficial) differences, or only tackling the question of Cult legions. i'm curious as to whether that's really what people would like to see or whether its reticence to really let loose with ideas.


Divided into 5 sections, each one for the different gods, plus undivided.

personally i'd be inclined to have it the otherway round. the Cult Legions were the lists that probably worked the best in the previous codex, because once you'd got the concept of marks across the rest was fairly self explaintory. where as the flavour of the undivided Legions was perhaps lost because there was not enough room (creatively speaking) to play around with the list and come up with a satificatory alternative that both played and looked different, and yet felt similar.


Within that you should get all the army options you'd need to make any chaos army of any faction, without having a seperate special rule for each legion,

well this is the interesting question (and i'd like to hear how you'd approach the question), how do you make a single armylist that can represent all of the varied legions without simply representing them as all the same? granted i can take units from the list that better suit a IW theme, but i could equally take those units and say they are NL. what room does that leave for IW to say they really are IW (in a mechanical sense, obviously having models painted like IW is one way, but not the way we are trying to nail down here).


1. Do away with the icon and just have each marine cost more points. Give them each to the actual mark with full benefits.

i take it that this is meant for Cult Legions only. does this mean that all your suggestions are for Cult Legions only? and that the Undivided Legions need no further work?


I know I coul come up with more, but mty mind is not focusing well right now.

in a general sense, about your suggestions, do you feel that those sorts of changes would be enough to justify a seperate Codex each? or one between all four Legions in question?

If (for the sake of discussion) i assume that you answer is the latter, how would you approach the stituation if you were to try and make a Codex for each?


Well, they aren't likely to give us back our thrall wizard bands and such

why do you say that?


Giving each model in the army the "full mark" (for a few extra points of course would fix the terminater and chosen and such.
Nurgle vehicle upgrade...+1 armor on each side.
World Eater vehicle upgrade, blades on a tank shock, add a negative to the victoms roll. If they fail, they need to take hit and an armor roll to avoid being wounded.
Thousand sons, I like the sorcerer choir unit. Maybe make them a pie plate barrage ifthe unit has 5 or more. reguler blast template if 4 or less. Vehicle upgrade, each vehicle able to "shoot" the doombolt spell.
Emporers children, Sonic weaponry I already covered, Vehicle upgrade, Any enemy unit within 6 inches get a -1 to hit in close combat/shooting.
Word bearers, able to summon 0-2 units of daemons of any kind (generic or godspecific), regain the dark apostle.
Alpha legion, 0-1 units of cultists. If cultists taken, a unit of daemons may be summoned (0-1 and generic)
Night Lords, give the hit hand run to thier raptors and anyone in the army with awings/jump pack.
Iron Wariors, Servo arms, ability to buy defensive fortifications.
Black legion, ability to summon 0-1 daemons of any flavor. Able to mix and match marks.
I agree with the LotD plug.

again, would you make these seperate lists? or rules (perhaps like the IA or previous codex) that altered a current list? and do you think that they would be different enough to sate the people who complained that the previous codex did not offer enough flavour for the legions?


Firstly I think that the Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Emperors Children should get their own codexes.

why do you think these legions deserve their own Codexes more than others? was their organisation more unique than the other 5?


you should get a real range of alternative marked units not available in the main list.

again, i think this is a really interesting question. at the moment there tends to be a general assumption that all cult units of a specific god are identicle to one another (except in ratios of equipment). but my question is, should they be? should IW Noise Marines be the same as BL Noise Marines? should all Noise Marines in an EC army be the same sort of thing. Varath- Lord Impaler made an interesting suggestion about Bezerkers in the WE legion, suggesting that perhaps, like ancient Roman Gladiators, different units should be armed with different combinations of weapons, perhaps ones that are specific to a certain kind of foe. so their might be an net and electric prod team who are specifcally armour crackers and a halberding team who are anti light infantry. both of whom are equally Khorne Bezerkers though, and maybe in a different Legion would be treated at the same thing.


Word Eaters: I'm not sure I see havocs and predators here. Jump pack troops, terminators, bikers and some crazy death dealing khorne machines with lots of blades on would be interesting.

personally, i would like to see more ranged weapons introduced into a 'World Eaters' or possibly just more generically Khorne army. i think that they are probably the cult legion that had their background made least entertaining, but that's another discussion.

IMO i think that they should have an availiblity of low powered blast and high fire rate weapons, showing off their love of destruciton. making the WE an anti-infantry army, and allowing the player the choice between taking the heavy weapons to face off against large hordes (like IG and Orks) and taking lots of Bezerkers to face off against MEQs or similar.


I was always inclined to have Chaplains for Khorne simply by preaching the gospal of skull-splitting.

i would love to make a Khorne IG army that stood still and shot lots, for fear of being beaten to death by their own chaplains/commisars. the idea of a Chaplain of Khorne disciplining his troops in the way of combat through utter fear sounds like a very cool idea to me.


Alpha Legion that don't look like Chaos.

somewhat off topic, but i'd love for them to produce a plastic upgrade sprue for every Legion and 1st Founding Chapter. and it would be particularly sweet if the AL plastics combined with the regular marines rather than the Chaos ones. you could have them make very subtle hints at chaos stars but mostly using scales as their theme. it would certainly make it hard for the regular imperial citizen to guess that they were foe and not friend.


Night Lords that are swift like Dark Eldar.

and yet another important question, who does one make different SM armies play differently without simply filling another races niche?

silashand
02-02-2008, 08:23
Rubric marines have trouble walking in a straight line on flat ground, I can't even begin to imagine how badly they'd ride a motorcycle...

Rubric marines aren't clumsy, just slow. I agree bikes would probably be inappropriate, but Havocs would not be since all that's required of them really is to sit back and shoot. Most other actual "marine" options (i.e. those fully enclosed in armour) would probably be fine except jumpacks (thus no raptors). For variety, maybe have a unit of rubric terminators and one of chosen (sorcerers) in terminator armour. I would *really* like to see a Tzeentch Defiler (or other daemonic engine) and a rubric dreadnought (no fire frenzy since it would just be an automaton of sorts). JMO though...

Give Alpha Legion back their cultists. Maybe add options for cult leaders and specialists in a manner similar to the zealots (Redemptionists) of the Witchhunters. Cultists would be the only way they are allowed to field daemons. Maybe add in something like a chaos daemonhost as a cultist unit upgrade. Cultists would be troop choices, but would not count toward the minimum/maximum in a manner similar to daemons. You could in theory allow units of traitor guard in an AL list which would not be inappropriate and also would bring it closer to something more like LatD, but without the mutants & stuff (since most cultists/guard regiments would have to still be mostly normal in order to blend in).

Cheers, Gary

Luckywallace
02-02-2008, 08:36
This will probably get me shot with a plasma gun, but I would say that I do not think the Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords or Black Legion should get their own codex books.

This is mostly because I think the four "cult" armies are the most interesting, distinguishable, differant and just colourful (in terms of both background and visual identity). I am not "against" Codex: Night Lords, but I just feel that any of the four "cult" armies would make more interesting armies to fight against or with. Only if GW "finish" updating all of the existing codex books (inc. Dark Eldar, Necrons, Space Wolves, Inquisition etc.) and then do all four of the gods armies do I think it would be a good idea to delve into the 5 non-alligned legions, which is years away. I like them all (especially Word Bearers) but think the basic Chaos Space Marines book represents them well enough, where as the Emperor's Children or Thousand Sons really are not quite as well represented. It would also make things "equal" to the loyalists.

Loyalist marine codex books -- Traitor marine codex books
Space Marines --- Chaos Space Marines
Blood Angels --- World Eaters
Dark Angels --- Death Guard
Space Wolves --- Thousand Sons
Black Templars --- Emperor's Children

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-02-2008, 09:07
well this is the interesting question (and i'd like to hear how you'd approach the question), how do you make a single armylist that can represent all of the varied legions without simply representing them as all the same? granted i can take units from the list that better suit a IW theme, but i could equally take those units and say they are NL. what room does that leave for IW to say they really are IW (in a mechanical sense, obviously having models painted like IW is one way, but not the way we are trying to nail down here).

Not to flame or anything, but this point bothers me about the new Codex. While it is true that a NL army can take Oblits and Vindys now and play like a IW army, it's not true that this invalidates the fact that IW are the ones who are shown in the background to play this way. While that NL player across from you might be violating his background by playing that way, he's not violating yours if you choose to play that way; basically, I don't feel it matters that, in the new Codex, someone can color what's essentially an IW army in NL colors. What matters is that you (speaking hypothetically) play IW as IW.

I mean, in the current SM Codex, I'm dead sure that not all the Ultramarine armies play like Ultramarines, for example. Codex org and all that. But that doesn't mean the Ultramarine players who do follow the Codex org are necessarily stopped from doing so.


This will probably get me shot with a plasma gun, but I would say that I do not think the Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords or Black Legion should get their own codex books.

*whine of plasma gun charging*


This is mostly because I think the four "cult" armies are the most interesting, distinguishable, differant and just colourful (in terms of both background and visual identity). I am not "against" Codex: Night Lords, but I just feel that any of the four "cult" armies would make more interesting armies to fight against or with. Only if GW "finish" updating all of the existing codex books (inc. Dark Eldar, Necrons, Space Wolves, Inquisition etc.) and then do all four of the gods armies do I think it would be a good idea to delve into the 5 non-alligned legions, which is years away. I like them all (especially Word Bearers) but think the basic Chaos Space Marines book represents them well enough, where as the Emperor's Children or Thousand Sons really are not quite as well represented. It would also make things "equal" to the loyalists.

Well, personally I feel that the new Codex does not represent certain Legions well. All have inconsistencies; there aren't Cult vehicles, Chosen, Termies, Havocs, or Bikers (where any of the above are applicable in each Legion). There also aren't great representations of Cultists, the Daemons aren't fantastic, no Furies, nothing to set Admiral Dick's hypothetical IW from NL, etc. and the vets of said Legions should be a bit better than renegade vets. I feel that the Legions could use a supplement in WD to the regular Codex with some restrictions, or a book for all the Legions. But I don't feel that the Undivided Legions are less deserving of a new list than the Cults.

I think we really just need a series of good (operative) WD supplements for the Legions, the Daemon Codex, a LatD Codex, and we should be fine.

But that's just me, and I bet someone's hoping aforementioned plasmagun overheats because of my opinion.

Ddraiglais
02-02-2008, 09:13
The cults should get markable termies and chosen. They need to get their god specific daemons back. They should be forced to all have the mark of their god. No unmarked troops or marks of other gods. I don't know about the sacred number thing. It never bothered me that they got a free AC for being fluffy. Maybe instead they could get a bonus to summoning if the summoning squad had the right number? To make it interesting, you could make them be at that number when they were summoning the daemons (as opposed to starting at that number). If the squad has taken casualties, they lose the bonus.

AL should get cultists and infiltrate for the cultists, AL, or both. They should be restricted in marks. Maybe give them bezerkers and sorcerors. They should also give up daemons. Another idea for AL that has never been explored. Don't let them take any CSM tanks. They can have dreads, havocs, and oblits though. Instead, let them take a limited number of Imperial tanks (0-1 Leman Russ or something along those lines). To represent that they are infiltrated on an Imperial world. It'd be hard to hide a predator, defiler, or vindicator. It would be much easier to capture an enemy tank or recruit PDF tankers.

IW should get servo arms, some sort of siege specialist rule. MAYBE let them have their basilisk back at 150% of the IG cost. Another option would be to allow a 4th HS choice, but make that choice have to be a basilisk (or another unit) at 200% the points cost. I'm trying to keep things fluffy, yet not cheesy. I think the extra points might keep it fairly balanced. The IW get no daemons. They should get limited FA. I'd even say limit their marked troops to bezerkers (the IW have a history with flirting with Khorne). Maybe let them take the mark of Nurgle, but not as a mark of Nurgle. It would count as bionics. I don't see IW having the mark of Tzeentch, except for maybe sorcerors. The mark of Slaanesh shouldn't even be considered.

NL should get extra FA and furies back. I don't know about night vision. That might be good but underused. Another idea would be to somehow give negatives to their opponent's leadership to represent their terror tactics. They should be restricted to having no daemons (outside of furies) and limited HS. I'm not too up to date on NL fluff. I don't know about limiting marks for them or not.

WB should get daemons from the upcoming codex. They shouldn't count against them in the FOC. They should get their crozius back. They shouldn't be allowed any marks for their troops. You might also limit them in other FOC areas (HS, FA, Elite) if they needed more balancing.

I've tried to offer some things that might help balance. For starters, the price of daemons would have to be much higher than what's rumored for the daemon dex for the cults, NL, and WB. Legion marines should all cost more. Maybe they could get a single veteran skill applicable to their legion (siege specialists, infiltrate, night vision, etc). I would love to see the legions come back. However, I want the lists to be somewhat balanced. I don't want to hear all the wailing and gnashing of teeth again. I do want to see the flavor of the legions restored though.

Ddraiglais
02-02-2008, 09:46
This will probably get me shot with a plasma gun, but I would say that I do not think the Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords or Black Legion should get their own codex books.

This is mostly because I think the four "cult" armies are the most interesting, distinguishable, differant and just colourful (in terms of both background and visual identity). I am not "against" Codex: Night Lords, but I just feel that any of the four "cult" armies would make more interesting armies to fight against or with. Only if GW "finish" updating all of the existing codex books (inc. Dark Eldar, Necrons, Space Wolves, Inquisition etc.) and then do all four of the gods armies do I think it would be a good idea to delve into the 5 non-alligned legions, which is years away. I like them all (especially Word Bearers) but think the basic Chaos Space Marines book represents them well enough, where as the Emperor's Children or Thousand Sons really are not quite as well represented. It would also make things "equal" to the loyalists.

Loyalist marine codex books -- Traitor marine codex books
Space Marines --- Chaos Space Marines
Blood Angels --- World Eaters
Dark Angels --- Death Guard
Space Wolves --- Thousand Sons
Black Templars --- Emperor's Children

There is currently a poll on which legion people like the most. AL is in the lead. IW are in third place (the only cult beating them is TS). NL are tied with two of the cults. I'm not trying to make a huge deal about a Warseer poll. I am trying to say that there are a lot of fans of the Undivided legions out there. Another example is to look at the EoT campaign. A lot of Chaos' direction/coordination came from a couple of IW Yahoo groups and a WE Yahoo group. I really think it would be a huge mistake for GW to release codices for the cults without codices or at least lists for the Undivided legions.

Dragonlv8
02-02-2008, 10:30
There probably should be a codex for each of the legions, then all round chaos would have as many codexs as imperium.
I don't have much to add though as I don't collect chaos.
Ddraiglais I agree with you there that to stop them from going epic cheeze some units should cost more or something

Example:
Iron warriors will have 1st 3 Heavy support choices at normal cost, 4th choice will be double though.

ImpTyranid
02-02-2008, 10:50
Ok, here's my humble stab at some of the legions, probably not too insightful.

Death Guard - The slow and purposeful assault sounds of footsloggers advancing like a glacier. I would say make the troops selection cheaper, the more you take, the cheaper each model is down to a lowest amount. I.E. - 20 Plague Marines cost say 400 pts, but if you took 30 you would only cost 550, saving you 50 pts....something like that. Obviously it would have to be extensively playtested and balanced by some some limitations, I.E. types of weapons carried, abilities, etc. but a rule like that would promote large numbers of troops, which is how I envision the Death Guard.

Iron Warriors - let them take conscripts as troops. I remember reading Storm of Iron and hearing about all the expendable troops (i.e. slaves) and wishing I could do that. Well, give them conscripts, maybe as 2-4 choice. Large numbers of "troops" and the elite Iron Warriors to hammer at the key point in the battle.

World Eaters - Each time a World Eater unit breaks an enemy in hand to hand combat (i.e. the enemy unit runs, gets destroyed, etc) they add Plus 1 to either WS, S, I to represent their blood lust increasing their desire for battle. Or, possibly make the World Eater Berzerker a beast with a rapid movement, but restrict them to bolt pistol and chainsword / chainaxe. This is their rapid charge into the enemy.

Thousand Sons - Buy rubric Marines as wargear. You are paying for a Sorcerer, who depending on level may be able to control up to X number of Rubric Marines. Bikers, Jet Packs, Havocs, etc, all would require more control from the sorcers so something like 2 Sorcers and no less than 4 Rubric Riders and no more than 6 Rubric Riders. Rubric Marines come standard with Bolter. Weapons purchases as per normal unit purchasing. Sorcerers May NOT carry Heavy Weapons.

Emperors Children - Ug, who can say. If I was a hedonist I can think of better ways to spend my day than mucking about the battlefield waiting to feel the equisite pain of a ork powerclaw ripping an arm off....

scratchbuilt
02-02-2008, 12:44
Most armies a slightly abridged selection of units compensated with a points cost break to compensate. But some access to deamons and cultists.

For Thousandson/ Deathgaurd; obliterators, defiler, biker etc doesn't quiet seem right to me for example. But they should have access to the appropriate demons.

Those with more ordinary troops, like wordbearers should have veterans as standard troops. And the appropriate veteran skill for free, so infiltrate for night lords (the payoff is the abridged troop list - or just factor it into the cost of the troops). And cultists for the legions for which it makes sense.

The_Warsmith
02-02-2008, 12:57
i would like to see new unique units for the legions, it's easy enough to restrict some units/tanks and slap a mark onto chaos marines but i would love to see GW come up with new units or bring back old ones, the cannon of khorne for example, siege dreadnaughts for IW (similar to the loyalist FW one) and/or a drilling machine like a defiler or brass scorpion that could come into play using deep strike, maybe a war alter for WB, possessed raptors for NL (alternativly they could be the only legion with winged possessed) ect. ect....

the possibilities are endless

TheLionReturns
02-02-2008, 13:39
why do you think these legions deserve their own Codexes more than others? was their organisation more unique than the other 5?


Its not so much that the other legions don't deserve their own codexes but that I feel there are just too many legions to do them all. With this in mind I have to think how I would like chaos portrayed in the codexes. I feel that for too long Khorne has been crazy blood obsessed maniacs, tzeentch has been magic, slaanesh has been kinky and nurgle diseased. There is far more to each individual power than this and I feel that having one codex for each power, going into real depth and having an accompanying legion army list would be a good way to go. These legion books do not just tell the story of the legion but the wider story of that chaos god too. As the non aligned legions don't have this extra background to consider I feel that unfortunately they are the best candidates to combine.

I don't know if you have read Angels of Death (the 2nd edition BA and DA codex), but this really was almost like 2 codexes in one book. Each chapter got decent treatment. In fact I felt that the DA got covered in more detail in this dex than in the later 3rd edition. I would see the combined dex follow this pattern.




again, i think this is a really interesting question. at the moment there tends to be a general assumption that all cult units of a specific god are identicle to one another (except in ratios of equipment). but my question is, should they be? should IW Noise Marines be the same as BL Noise Marines? should all Noise Marines in an EC army be the same sort of thing. Varath- Lord Impaler made an interesting suggestion about Bezerkers in the WE legion, suggesting that perhaps, like ancient Roman Gladiators, different units should be armed with different combinations of weapons, perhaps ones that are specific to a certain kind of foe. so their might be an net and electric prod team who are specifcally armour crackers and a halberding team who are anti light infantry. both of whom are equally Khorne Bezerkers though, and maybe in a different Legion would be treated at the same thing.

This is an interesting one. One way of doing things is giving the non EC legions access to the basic Noise marine squad in the current codex. In the actual EC list you could envision perhaps heavy noise marine options and the elite close combat squad I mentioned. Perhaps IW could have access to the heavier ones rather than the generic ones. I think there is a risk in giving legions too many options from other lists, particularly if they make up for weaknesses. I would like each legion to have its own playstyle and have the list reinforce this. The marked units such as noise marines should perhaps fit into this character rather than fill gaps in my opinion ie the IW get heavier kitted noise marines.




personally, i would like to see more ranged weapons introduced into a 'World Eaters' or possibly just more generically Khorne army. i think that they are probably the cult legion that had their background made least entertaining, but that's another discussion.

IMO i think that they should have an availiblity of low powered blast and high fire rate weapons, showing off their love of destruciton. making the WE an anti-infantry army, and allowing the player the choice between taking the heavy weapons to face off against large hordes (like IG and Orks) and taking lots of Bezerkers to face off against MEQs or similar.

IMO there is a place for heavier weapons in a WE list. If you look to epic the khorne daemon engines are some of the most heavily armed. I like the idea of an anti infantry focus. Khorne is the martial god and machines would seem low down the list of ideal targets for a devotee of khorne. Ranged anti Infantry and perhaps a CC method to tackle vehicles would be best. If any heavy weapons do have anti-tank capability they would have to be indiscriminate killers rather than precise tools. In game terms this means a blast template to me.




somewhat off topic, but i'd love for them to produce a plastic upgrade sprue for every Legion and 1st Founding Chapter. and it would be particularly sweet if the AL plastics combined with the regular marines rather than the Chaos ones. you could have them make very subtle hints at chaos stars but mostly using scales as their theme. it would certainly make it hard for the regular imperial citizen to guess that they were foe and not friend.


I like this idea and think it is probably the long term plan. Whether it happens of course is another matter. I doubt the spikes will go totally, but I think that being able to interchange with loyalist bits will be kept in mind.

Kelderaith
02-02-2008, 18:41
Even though I (somewhat) agree that each cult legion should have its own codex, since they are more distinguishable and colourful from each others, I would dearly, dearly wish for GW to do a Undivided Legions as well, since each of these legions are just as much played/appreciated and have just as much background as the 4 cult ones. I will explain how I would see each legions developed, even though it might be a bit repetitive to some post, my opinion will only enforce these ideas as shared by multiple people.

I also warn you in advance, this is a 3 and a half pages long Microsoft Word post, so it will be long and anyone who just want to skip it feel free to do so ;)

Alpha Legion : Access to Cultist (I wouldn't see them 0-1, since as stated in their background they use extensively traitors to soften up the resistance, but I wouldn't make it a normal troop choice either, since it could lead to abuse, I think making them 0-2 would be the best option since fielding big squad would be kind of nice). I also really like the idea of adding deamonhost, cult leader, weapon specialist etc… to this squad (a bit like eldar harlequin) it would really add flavour to this unit. Also, I would like GW to better represent their favourite tactic (and iconology) the "hydra attack" which consist of attacking strategic point on multiple side at the same time creating mayhem and confusion. I would give them access to infiltrate and deep strike for a point cost (a bit like the old codex). I wouldn't restrict them in the choice of unit to field, since I think pretty much everything in the chaos codex has the potential to hit hard and fast. I would make them unable to use any marked troop or any daemon though, as a drawback to this mobility/terrain dominance.

Word Bearer: Creating a new entry to the Dark Apostle, make it a unique and powerful choice (since it's one of their major unique things). I would make it a sort of Chaos Lord which has access to sorcery (spells) but not the normal chaos ones. Create 2-3 spells specific to this Legion in the form of "prophecies" and "trances" since they are all spiritually closer to the gods of chaos (idea taken from the novel "Word Bearer" which is imho a great novel, albeit a bit weird in its ending, the rest is just pure fun). Give them access to troop choice god specific daemon of Codex: Demonica (0-2) (and greater daemon, 0-1) that doesn't count neither in the FoC nor as scoring troop (to have a certain drawback). Give them cheaper or slightly more powerful possessed marines and defilers, easier access (reduced point cost more probably) to Demonic Possession vehicle upgrade. Reduce their FoC to 2 in Elite/Fast Attack/Heavy Support at all time.

Night Lord: Reduce their access to daemon (none) except Furies, 0-2 as troop choice, which wouldn't count in the FoC or as scoring units. Either reduce the cost of bikers and raptors (to make them more accessible) or improve their overall efficiency with some specific power (like hit and run, particularly loved this one). Give the army night vision (not a great bonus, but it's given and is very fluffy). Deny access to any marked troop. Give access to a jump pack to Chosen (so they can really field a ton of jump pack marine, I always saw Night Lord to be the chaotic aspect of the Raven Guard). Reduce of deny access to Possessed and Defilers (for the purpose of not to much demonic army). Army power (a bit like daemon hunter) give a overall -1 Ld to enemy due to terror tactic (also, make a few equipment accessible to champion and lord who actually enhance this bonus, a bit like some dark eldar equipment IIRC, so accentuate the fact they really are morale breaking troop). Give them special of heavy weapon (special profile, not existing one) with "pinning" special rules.

Iron Warriors: Give them back their Warsmith, which would be a Chaos Lord with a few optional special rules (a bit like Dark Apostle). I see something like access to Servo Harness (similar to SM techmarine), access to some heavy weapon (I would really like to see a shooty lord for once, and I think it would be fitting in the IW, potentially use special ranged weapon that only the Warsmith have access to, to illustrate his own "special creation", potentially reinclude a ranged daemon weapon of some sort etc.) and special rules about making either a guy or a squad reroll failed to hit ranged weapon (probably more balanced a single dude, a squad would be like guide power of the farseer so I think it might be a bit cheesy, even though it would cost accordingly) and something of strategical value since the "trait" of Perturabo was unflinching logic/analysis and tactical sense. Deny access to daemon, but let them have access to possessed marines and defilers, they use daemon engines and such very extensively. Deny them access to any marked troop, with the exception of Khorne Berserker 0-2 (as someone mentioned, they don't really use anything but Khorne really, as a specific god I mean). Limited access to fast attack (represented to 2 Fast Attack choices in the FoC and all choice being 0-1). I wouldn't let them have a 4th Heavy Support choice since it was considered (and actually is) pretty cheesy/imbalanced in my opinion. I would though reduce the cost of nearly all heavy support choice, to illustrate the fact they have easy access to such weaponry in droves (so instead of having a 4th heavy support, of which could result in abuse, your heavy support cost a bit less, so you can spend the point elsewhere). Give the army a special rule about using hard cover to the best of its capacity (hard cover +1 to cover saves, IW are expert at breaking and holding siege, wouldn't be so overpowered as hardcover aren't so widely spread in the game, compared to tree/bushes and such). Give them access to a limited number of fortification and/or minefield (0-2 style) (or mine laying devices, but I prefer prelayed minefields, lines or pie plate style, costing a predefined cost and being in the heavy support choice without counting in the FoC (would count in specific scenario where you have limited pts of Heavy Support for instance). Potentially reduce the cost of "extra armor" upgrade for vehicle. Potentially create either 1-2 new daemon engines or give them access to specific artilleries (Imperial Armour style) that give IW its distinct flavour. Finally, give Chosen more access to Heavy weaponry (at a certain cost, and at the cost of losing special weapon) and give them tank hunting special rule (like I said, IW are expert are holding and breaking siege) chosen being long lived/expert in their field I would find it quite fluffy.

World Eaters: Make every unit automatically marked as Khorne, and deny them access to any other gods mark. Add 3-5 new equipment for Khorne Chaos Lord (an anti psyker device for one). Give them back their terminators etc. (was implied in the all marked army but wanted to specify to be understood by all). Make Khorne Dread auto wield 2 CC weapon and give them a greater chance of going in Blood Frenzy (basically, could just replace the fire frenzy with blood frenzy). Give possessed a new entry to "Khorne daemon possessed" more appropriate for the blood god. Deny access to Obliterators and Havocs. 2-3 new entry in Fast Attack and Heavy Support for Khorne specific daemon engines (Brass Scorpion and more). Potentially add 1-2 new Khorne ranged weapon (that spills blood and gore like no others lol). Give access to different type of weapon to troop "Khorne Berserker" in the form of gladiator's weapons (a bit like DE old Wyches) but costing something, since I find Berserker to be already very efficient for their point cost (yah I am sorry but I really, really liked this idea ^^). Give them access to Bloodthirster (0-1) as HQ and Bloodletters (0-2) as Troop choice, don't count in the FoC (didn't want to include bloodcrusher and dogs since it would make the demonic army kind of pointless).

Thousand Sons: All the army is marked as Tzeentch (and thus, like Khorne, they get back their specific terminators etc.). I really, really like the idea of a Sorcerous Choir (something like 2-8 Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerors lead by a Sorceror, the Sorceror can make a blast (predetermined Str and AP, each aspiring sorcerors that join him in the incantation add +1 Str, each 2 or 3 sorcerors also add +1 AP (or minus, whichever actually improve the blast). Deny them access to any other god marked troop. Chosen gets back to aspiring sorcerer status (also, the Choir could cost 1 HQ and 1 Elite slot, to represent both Sorcerors and a Chosen Unit attached, else some people might think it's really overpowered). Dreadnought could (see the possibility here, not obligation) get 2nd shooting weapon instead of CC weapon and make blood frenzy turn into fire frenzy (I've always seen Thousand Sons a bit like Tau, wanting to blast enemy from a distance and not really relishing the whole HtH thing, even though they are quite potent at it, as opposed to Tau ^^). Give possessed a new entry about "Tzeentch daemon possessed" for more flavour. Give access to Lord of Change (0-1 HQ) and Horrors (0-2 troop) not counting in the FoC nor as scoring units. Reducing the cost of Aspiring sorcerer, since automatically equipped with force weapon and adding a spell make him cost around 90 pts (the force weapon I wouldn't remove, since it's really fluffy imho) and I find it a big handicap with the supposed new wound allotment rule in 5th edition. Deny them access to Raptor/Biker/Obliterator. Potentially give them access back to their Havocs (not to sure for this one as for game balance issue, but rationally, I can't find why they wouldn't have access to those). Potentially give them some Tzeentch Daemon Engines, but could do without. Add 3-5 Tzeentch specific power/goodies for lord/sorcerer and the "lesser ones" also accessible to aspiring sorcerer. A big must: Add at least 2-3 new Tzeentch psychic power, I always found it weird that the God of Sorcery doesn't have any more spell than Nurgle or Slaanesh.

Death Guard: All the army is marked as Nurgle's followers. Give them back their own terminators etc. Add 3-5 Nurgle specific power/goodies for lord and the "lesser ones" also accessible to champion. Add a new entry to possessed marines for "Nurgle daemon possessed" for more flavour. Deny access to any non-Nurgle troop. Let the army lack of heavy weapon in squads, that's what their heavy support should be, heavy support. Give them limited access to transport, while granting them 1-2 bonuses for infantry (indeed to represent their relentless advance, I like the idea of reducing the cost depending on the size of the unit). Give them access to The Great Unclean One (0-1 HQ) and plaguebearers (0-2 troop) that doesn't count in the FoC nor as scoring units. Potentially give them 1-2 Nurgle Daemon Engine, could do without. Not much more ideas for Nurgle I am sorry.

Emperor's Children: All the army is marked as Slaanesh's followers. Give them back their own terminators etc. Add 3-5 Slaanesh specific power/goodies for lord and the "lesser ones" being accessible to champion as well. Add a new entry to possessed marines for "Slaanesh Daemon possessed" for more flavour. Deny access to non-Slaanesh troop. Give them access to The Keeper of Secret (0-1 HQ) and Demonettes (0-2 troop) which doesn't count in the FoC nor as scoring units. Reduce the cost of Noise Marines (I feel they already pay too much for only +1 Initiative, and then you make them pay another 5 pts for a tad better storm bolter… I find it a bit too much), and auto equip them with sonic blaster as basic weapon. Create at least 2 more sonic weapons to add diversity to squads' composition (let doom sirens for champion only as it's a very deadly weapon). Create 1-2 new melee Slaanesh weapons to make a variant to sonic weaponry and thus create "melee specialist". Not much more to add for Slaanesh.

General 4 Cult rule: do something about the specific numbers, I really liked the dynamic on this thing, either bring back free champion or (and actually better ideas) give them a bonus when the unit is composed of the favourite numbers, a bonus of which they can lose if they suffer casualty (better illustrate the fickle nature of the chaos god).

I didn't want to create anything that is cheesy/imbalanced, if such things happen to be the case, just blatantly ignore my ideas. I tried to remake the old Chaos Codex, without the more obvious abuse (advantageous change to the FoC, too easy to get bonus (infiltrate and such) and powered Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince (since there were undivided powers + god specific powers, could easily lead to abuse.

Downside: as a downside to the actual codex, I would remaster the demonic weapon to be less powerful, since I add god specific power, and that these daemon weapons are designed in a context where such powers don't exist and are more powerful to balance things out.

P.S. Also note that this post took about 2h30 to write, so even though I tried to make the least amount of errors possible, I still didn't took time to double check my text for errors, imho it took me long enough haha.

I wish my post can add something to this discussion

Halcyon504
02-02-2008, 19:36
WB should get daemons from the upcoming codex. They shouldn't count against them in the FOC. They should get their crozius back. They shouldn't be allowed any marks for their troops. You might also limit them in other FOC areas (HS, FA, Elite) if they needed more balancing.

No, no, and NO!!

Any logic stating that I may take ANY Cult Demon, and NOT any Cult Troop is RIDICULOUS!! This was the biggest problem I had with the old codex rules for Word Bearers, and it made very little sense. Demons are more direct servants of the Gods, and it would seem much more detrimental if one were to summon a pack of Bloodletters while utilizing a pack of Daemonettes. I could do this, but I couldn't implement a squad of Bezerkers? What?!

Anyhow, My suggestions for Legions would be, first and foremost, to rewrite some of the fluff a little bit to better suit "logic."

My main offenders are thus:

Death Guard: Being an infantry army, it made NO sense that they would so carelessly disregard their transports and heavy weapons. To me, Death Guard represented the ultimate Mechanized Infantry Army of the Traitor Legions, based upon Mortarion being the Ultimate Infantryman and all. Give them Rhinos with no limitations, but also open up heavy weapons to Heavy Bolters. I don't see them using stuff like lascannons or missile launchers fluff wise, as they fill more specialized roles, while the Heavy Bolter is an excellent choice because, being a machine gun, gives the squad "cover fire," an important concept of infantry fighting.

Word Bearers: Give them back Dark Apostles, Accursed Crozius, and allow them to take 0-1 only of each Cult Troop if the person desires, to represent that they do utilize cult troops, although in limited form as to maintain Chaos Undivided status. I couldn't think of any way that I like better of implementing demons into WB other than letting them have Cult Demons that count for your Troop slots, to offset the extra power they have over generic lesser demons.

World Eaters: Give them Bikers and Raptors, but maybe not Havocs.

Night Lords: My vision of the Night Lords is that of a hit-and-run "terrorist" band who's only goal in life is to cause as much innocent suffering and death as they can. They should either allow for 0-1, or 0-2 Raptors as troop choices to represent a high use of jump packs, or I like the idea of Chosen getting jump packs also. I'd think either-or would work in this case. No Defilers, since it does not fit the MO of the Night Lords, and Demons should either be Furies or Generic Lesser Demons. Finally, no marked troops, as fluff indicates they hold themselves to no specific power.

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-02-2008, 19:44
I would argue, Halcyon504, that a Cult Troop represents someone stuck worshipping one god; kind of like an Exarch. Whereas summoning Daemons may require that you worship that god, but doesn't necessarily preclude you from worshipping others. I can see your point, but it's a matter of degree.

A Word Bearers unit might take an Icon of a specific God, the flavor of the day, as it were, but I don't see them utilizing Cult troops. Cult troops represent being stuck with one God.

A Word Bearers unit might summon Cult Daemons, but as the Big Four have the most power, it follows that their servants are easier to get ahold of.

Kelderaith
02-02-2008, 20:56
I would argue, Halcyon504, that a Cult Troop represents someone stuck worshipping one god; kind of like an Exarch. Whereas summoning Daemons may require that you worship that god, but doesn't necessarily preclude you from worshipping others. I can see your point, but it's a matter of degree.

A Word Bearers unit might take an Icon of a specific God, the flavor of the day, as it were, but I don't see them utilizing Cult troops. Cult troops represent being stuck with one God.

That statement is also a matter of perspective (to use your own word :D). Both in Storm of Iron and in Word Bearer novels, you see undivided legions use specific god (both Khorne in this case). Being undivided to me is that you worship (as a whole) no particular chaos power, but that doesn't mean the entire legion is that way, and some might tend/be axed more toward a single god, while keeping a certain sense of the overall chaos glory. In this exemple, Undivided legions could use cult troop (0-1 of each) since while they are clearly not as predominant as undivided marines (or marked marine in the 4 cult legions) they are still used for specific roles (in this case of Khorne, assault/counter-assault of position).

I won't directly quote Word Bearer since I don't have it with me at the moment but one passage said something like "Gather a small force of our more ferocious Khorne follower and take back these hills". The distinction between World Eater Berserker and the 0-1 usable Khorne Berserker could be achieved by the gladiator's weapons thing usable only by World Eaters and such. Because when I read this, I didn't imagine normal CSM close combat weapon armed going into HtH... Khorne Berserker were way more fitting to those circumstances.

Ddraiglais
02-02-2008, 21:11
Kelderaith,
You've come real close to what would make a nice list. I would charge more for daemons for the cults and WB. The rumored costs of daemons in the new daemon dex is just too low. It would make any CSM list that included them way too powerful. Your ideas might need a little playtesting/tinkering, but I like them overall.

Halcyon504,
I'm with Imperialis Dominatus on this. The WB see any devotion to a single god as heresy. Cult troops are devoted to a single god. The daemons are gifts sent to them from the gods they worship. As ID said, they do worship those gods. They just don't worship them exclusively. With all that being said, WB should get access to the generic daemons too. Those would represent the minor Chaos powers.

Kelderaith
02-02-2008, 21:51
Kelderaith,
You've come real close to what would make a nice list. I would charge more for daemons for the cults and WB. The rumored costs of daemons in the new daemon dex is just too low. It would make any CSM list that included them way too powerful. Your ideas might need a little playtesting/tinkering, but I like them overall.

Yah I was actually implying either old cost (3.5 dex) or a completely new cost but based upon Codex: Demonica's version of the daemon (cause I actually knew that, since it will be an army in itself, with very low cost daemon, it would really ruin game balance if CSM had access to those same very cheap daemon).


Halcyon504,
I'm with Imperialis Dominatus on this. The WB see any devotion to a single god as heresy. Cult troops are devoted to a single god. The daemons are gifts sent to them from the gods they worship. As ID said, they do worship those gods. They just don't worship them exclusively. With all that being said, WB should get access to the generic daemons too. Those would represent the minor Chaos powers.

Yah well, I understand your point, I guess "Marked as Khorne" normal CSM would be enought to represent "Undivided Marine that tends more towards Khorne philosophy than other gods" than Khorne Berserker (I had kind of forgot about that option haha).

As for WB purpose, I tried to make something to most similar to what I knew about them, like most of you probably noticed, I am more knowledgeable into Iron Warriors' stuff than WB and such :p

Pandion40
02-02-2008, 22:40
I have always thought about doing a traitor legion army but whenever I have looked at the codex’s from 2nd to present I have found them all to limiting, and quickly lost interest.

In my opinion the Chaos marines have the potential to be far more diverse than any of the loyalists. I would like all the cult legions to be given the mark of their god but I want far more than Normal Berserkers, Terminator Berserkers and Chosen Berserkers ect. I want each legion to have 1 or 2 totally new units.

I particularly want the Emperors Children to have access to marked units that are NOT Noise marines.

I also think that the Undivided legions have just as much potential as the Cult Legions. Partly because less has been done with them. I love the idea of using loyalist marine models for the Alpha Legion and would take this further and give them access to some limited Loyalist equipment, but no Cult troops or Daemons.

I fully expect to be disappointed as Chaos has almost limitless potential and this is imposable to capture even if they give each Legion its own codex. I expect only the Cult Marines will be included in one joint Codex. This would be a mistake in my opinion as I believe the undivided Legions are just as popular if not more so.

AdmiralDick
03-02-2008, 10:05
This will probably get me shot with a plasma gun, but I would say that I do not think the Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords or Black Legion should get their own codex books.

This is mostly because I think the four "cult" armies are the most interesting, distinguishable, differant and just colourful (in terms of both background and visual identity).

whilst i would agree that the flavour of the four Cult Legions' background usually trumps the 5 Undivided Legions' i would largely put that down to the fact that the 4 Cults have been written about from the start. whereas the 5 Undivided have largely been overlooked (they certainly don't have their own troop type in the main codex), and unfortunately when background was really developed for them it felt like something of a rushed job. some were not really very chaotic, others were highly formulaic.

however, interms of game play and theme of ingame fighting style, the Undivided Legions totally trump the 4 Cults. each Undivided Legion has a clear ingame theme that can play out on the table (BL are very flexible, WB are infantry heavy, NL are swift, IW are powerful at long range and AL perform confusion and the pincer manuver (although the latter has never really had this represented on the table)). the Cult Legions, on the other hand, do not have such clear themes (WE are close combat specialist for sure, but what is it that the EC specialise in?? the TS are even worse thematically).

all in all, the most interesting codexes to read would be the cults, but the most interesting codexes to own and play with would be the Undivided ones.


While that NL player across from you might be violating his background by playing that way, he's not violating yours if you choose to play that way

he might well be playing it rather against the previously esablished background, but what you can't fault him on is that he is still using an NL list; as opposed to saying he is playing an IW list as NL. the former is detrimental to both players background (what makes IW and NL special, no longer exists), where as i think the latter provides plenty of flexibility for game play, but does show up that the NL are playing 'out of character' so to speak.

and i certainly don't think you're flame baiting. it is a really important discussion and one that i seriously hope GW are having (for any given army) because it is about what players want to see in terms of flexibility from any given codex.


I'd even say limit their marked troops to bezerkers (the IW have a history with flirting with Khorne). Maybe let them take the mark of Nurgle, but not as a mark of Nurgle. It would count as bionics. I don't see IW having the mark of Tzeentch, except for maybe sorcerors. The mark of Slaanesh shouldn't even be considered.

we've discussed the merits of cult troops in an IW list previous thread (here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123508), i actually thought you'd been part of that discussion, but reviewing it i see you weren't). so i'm not going to go into huge depth here. surfice to say i think that the Slaaneshi philosophy of taking pleasure in watching others suffer from your perfect and decadent seige and the Khornate philosophy of utterly grinding your enemy to dust and leaving no trace the ever existed sits better with the IW than anything you could really draw from Tzeentch or Nurgle.

but then again, as i have agued before i don't feel that 'cult troops' should be the same from one army to the next, so i'm not simply talking about including Bezerkers and Noise Marines. how the IW understand the mandates of the Blood God is likely to be very different to the NL understanding.


Death Guard - [...] I would say make the troops selection cheaper, the more you take, the cheaper each model is down to a lowest amount. I.E. - 20 Plague Marines cost say 400 pts, but if you took 30 you would only cost 550, saving you 50 pts....something like that.

i think this, and Ddraiglais' and Dragonlv8's ideas of the increased value HS slot, are really intesting concepts, but ones that might want to be explored further. as they are they would simply be too complex to fit into the game as is. but still really good 'out of the box' thinking.


Emperors Children - Ug, who can say. If I was a hedonist I can think of better ways to spend my day than mucking about the battlefield waiting to feel the equisite pain of a ork powerclaw ripping an arm off....

but if you were a SM you would find it extrodinarily difficult to think of anything else to do, other than be in battle and prepare for being in battle.


i would like to see new unique units for the legions, it's easy enough to restrict some units/tanks and slap a mark onto chaos marines but i would love to see GW come up with new units or bring back old ones

now you're talking my language. and some nice ideas for new (and some old) unit.


Its not so much that the other legions don't deserve their own codexes but that I feel there are just too many legions to do them all.

i can totally agree with you on this one. i would rather see one codex that had variety built into it (probably through a doctrine system) than ten good, but inflexible lists. and i think that what JJ and Gav T said was an attempt to tell us that they were not planning on writting any more Chaos codexes in the future, that had the wrong effect (a bit like at the end of Dumb and Dumber when Lloyd asks whether he has a chance with Mary Swanson). so we are really only talking hypothetically at the moment. (i'm just wanted people to have a space to talk about where they would like to see the Legions heading, rather than squabbling in other threads because no one really undertood anyone elses opinion).

however, it is an interesting question, should there be one more codex that covers all the legions, two codexes for the cults and undivided legions respectively, a codex for each legion, or some other combination or permutation? should some legions not get further rules for the sake of the game? the only reason i've been pushing for people to think in terms of one codex each, is to get them to think in more depth about each legion.


If any heavy weapons do have anti-tank capability they would have to be indiscriminate killers rather than precise tools. In game terms this means a blast template to me.

i like that idea a lot. high Str, possibly relatively low AP and blast. to make it more indescriminate than a Lascannon.


No, no, and NO!!

Any logic stating that I may take ANY Cult Demon, and NOT any Cult Troop is RIDICULOUS!! This was the biggest problem I had with the old codex rules for Word Bearers, and it made very little sense.

i'm afraid i fall on Imperialis_Dominatus and Ddraiglais, aside from i think only one occassion in one book (one good reason why i don't regard novels as cannon background), the WB are exclusively undivided in the simplest sense. again, i've discussed it ad nauseum elsewhere (http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2314263&postcount=375) so i'm not going to take up more space on it here. i wouldn't entirely object to WB allowing cult troops, but it does make more sense in terms of their background and it mechanically sets the army appart from the other legions if they don't.


Death Guard: Being an infantry army, it made NO sense that they would so carelessly disregard their transports and heavy weapons.

i agree that it makes not sense to limit their heavy weapons, and it didn't really add anything i the last codex, so i'm not sure why it happened. however, i'm inclined to disagree about the transports. the background usually describes the Death Guard as Imp Tyranid did; glacial. they are slow moving but with such huge momentum that they are unstopable. they start some distance off and simply absorb all the damage that the enemy can throw at them and them crush them under their steam rolling advance. they are utterly terrifying because you can see them coming from some way off, but simply cannot stop their advance (i guess much like in a zombie movie).


Finally, no marked troops, as fluff indicates [the NL] hold themselves to no specific power.

it does suggest that they are dissinterested in worshiping specific godes (the same reasoning they give to IW and AL), however they are not actively against cults (like the WB are), and yet you appear to have selectively read the background to find the opposite interpretation.


I have always thought about doing a traitor legion army but whenever I have looked at the codex’s from 2nd to present I have found them all to limiting, and quickly lost interest.

would you care to expand on that a little further? what was it you would have like to have been able to do, but could not? in what ways did you feel restricted? i'd like to hear your take on things.


I particularly want the Emperors Children to have access to marked units that are NOT Noise marines.

well that's likely to be something of a struggle, because unless they change the background currently anyone who bears the Mark of Slaanesh is by default a Noise Marine, in the same way that to bear the Mark of Khorne means you are a Bezerker (regardless of how you interpret that). the problem really occurs because Noise Marine is something of a missnomer. not all Noise Marines carry sonic weapons, but they do all have +1 I. i do agree though it would be nice to see some units that bear the Mark of Slaanesh and perform a different function to the sorts of heavy weapon units we are used to. (but then the same is true of those that bear the Mark of Khorne and Nurgle, and we have yet to see and actual cult troop of Tzeentch).


I fully expect to be disappointed as Chaos has almost limitless potential and this is imposable to capture even if they give each Legion its own codex.

then anything GW does can only exceed or match your expectations. a wise plan. imagine big, but expect little.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-02-2008, 10:25
he might well be playing it rather against the previously esablished background, but what you can't fault him on is that he is still using an NL list; as opposed to saying he is playing an IW list as NL. the former is detrimental to both players background (what makes IW and NL special, no longer exists), where as i think the latter provides plenty of flexibility for game play, but does show up that the NL are playing 'out of character' so to speak.

While I can see where you're coming from and can sympathize, actually, I have always seen what other people do as rather disconnected with myself, especially in regards to our hobby. I see something I like, I applaud it (and perhaps ninja an idea or two). I see something I think is unfluffy, cheesy for it's own sake, and/or poorly informed, I either explain to them their error, or push it out of my mind.

But like I said, I can see where you're coming from. An example: I care deeply about stories based on fluff. Ergo, much of what I do revolves around it (not to mention the fact that I don't consider myself a genius tactician). However, when I read Black Library works, which are generally considered canon, and hear about some hack like Goto getting published for making Chaotic Eldar (and not stuff on Crone Worlds like you'd expect either), whereas I write fanfic that I never think will get published, yet go to great lengths to keep my stuff legit, I might be offended that a writer who finds himself in a position to get published disrespects the background in the universe in which he writes.

Now that example brings me easily to your point of view. While there's a small difference (someone's unfluffy army list =/= established canon by hack), the same ideas and emotions are in place.

Er, I seem to be going in circles. Point is, I understand your point of view. :)


That statement is also a matter of perspective (to use your own word :D). Both in Storm of Iron and in Word Bearer novels, you see undivided legions use specific god (both Khorne in this case). Being undivided to me is that you worship (as a whole) no particular chaos power, but that doesn't mean the entire legion is that way, and some might tend/be axed more toward a single god, while keeping a certain sense of the overall chaos glory. In this exemple, Undivided legions could use cult troop (0-1 of each) since while they are clearly not as predominant as undivided marines (or marked marine in the 4 cult legions) they are still used for specific roles (in this case of Khorne, assault/counter-assault of position).

I suppose I can see the point here too, but see above for a warning about Black Library. I honestly can see a unit of Word Bearers taking an Icon (Khorne's football) to battle for a specific purpose, but cannot see them dedicating themselves deeply enough to Khorne to become Berzerkers (Khorne's b****es).


I won't directly quote Word Bearer since I don't have it with me at the moment but one passage said something like "Gather a small force of our more ferocious Khorne follower and take back these hills". The distinction between World Eater Berserker and the 0-1 usable Khorne Berserker could be achieved by the gladiator's weapons thing usable only by World Eaters and such. Because when I read this, I didn't imagine normal CSM close combat weapon armed going into HtH... Khorne Berserker were way more fitting to those circumstances.

I see, but I'll just agree to disagree. ;)

Varath- Lord Impaler
03-02-2008, 11:54
Hmm, Wow, Being invited to a thread, usually im being kicked out with glasses thrown at me.

Oh well.

I will, while im here. Talk on the World Eaters. As they are my favorite of the legions and i have studied their fluff as much as i can.

Now. The codex needs to concentrate on Khorne himself. The background has been far too concentrated upon the Whirling Beserker aspect of Khorne.

Khorne is the oldest of the chaos gods. He is, physically at least, the most obvious in power. Nurgle may live in the slow death, Slaanesh through the transformed Excess and Tzeentch through the creation of the new.

Khorne, and thus his followers, are known for being simple. Their objective is to become the pinnacle of the warrior. To kill all in their path to take skulls and blood for their lord Khorne.

What many forget about the followers of chaos is that they are oppertunists. They serve their god through their chosen skill.

A Bladesmith will continue to fashion weapons after following the call of khorne. He will follow the path of the warrior, as all followers of khorne do, but he will still fashion blades.

As does the priest

As does, even, the Psyker.

Khorne hates Psykers who use their Powers to blast their foes from a distance. He hates petty scheming.

As i said, Khorne is simple, simple does not mean stupid.

A khornate psyker is simply a follower of Khorne. On the path of the warrior he uses his connection with the warp to strengthen himself and to destroy his enemies in the name of khorne. This connection can be used both ways and this means that any breaking from the spirit of the warrior will result in a Psyker killed or maimed by Khornes will.

With that said, i will continue with what i believe the Army list should look like.

HQ

Chaos Champion.

The leader of a Khornate warband is known as a champion. Mostly due to the method of heirarchy within Khornate society. Frequently a hierarchy is established through Acts of strength, endurance and combat. Other factors may be included, such as a members usefulness to lord Khorne (such as the afor mentioned bladesmith). The Champion of a Khornate warband is one of the most dangerous individuals in any realm of combat.

WS8 Bs6 S5 T4 I5 A4 W3 Ld10 Sv 3+

Weapons:
Bolt Pistol
Bolter
Power weapon
Frag and Krak Grenades

Special rules.

5+ Invulnerable

Strength is all-

The Khornate Champion is a visible Avatar of Lord Khorne. If he fails then Khorne may remove his strength from him.

If a Khornate Champion misses with 5 or more attacks in any combat round, he instantly loses a wound. No saves of any kind.

Cult of the Warrior-

A Khornate Champion must seek out the greatest of enemy warriors and defeat them in combat. The greater the challenge, the more strength Lord Khorne gifts his champion

For each point of WS an enemy model (if independant character) or majority of a unit is above 4 The Khornate Champion recieves an extra attack.

HQ- Blood priest

Keepers of the faith, the Chaplains of the Blood god and the keeper of his Sacred Sites. These warriors are less in power, but inspire their fellows around them to greater acts of Slaughter in the name of Lord Khorne.

Sorcerer stats

Gifted with a Brass Blade

Brass Blades are Khornes answer to force fields and other Technosorcery and regular sorcery. The keepers of his holy sites can crush those who try to defend themselves with even the strongest of Abilites.

Ignores armour and invulnerable saves.

Special Rule

Slaughter Incarnate

All Khornate forces within 12" may not persue a broken enemy because they are collecting the Skulls of the dead. Although, all forces within 12" gain an extra point of Initiative and roll 2D6 pick the highest for all 'run' rolls.

Daemons are excempt

Elites:

Chosen

The Chosen of khorne are known as being those selected by the champion. They are gifted with the weapons and armour that are deserved to them.

Terminators:

Terminators with Furious charge and Ws6

Chosen.

Chosen with Furious charge and WS6

Possessed

Possessed of Khorne are given the strength, rage and innate combat ability to put many Khornate champions to shame. The problem is that a warrior of Khornes rise to become the greatest is ultimatly self destructive.

Possessed stats with Ws5 S6, Furious charge

Special rules

Fleet

Slaughter all in your path
All Khornate possessed recieve the rending special rule, although on a roll of a 1 to hit the wound is resolved upon the Possessed unit (and can even rend if a 6 is rolled to wound)

Dreadnaught

Driven to the depths of his rage, being incarcerated in a dreadnaught is a Khornate warriors worst Nightmare. A dreadnaught is not a warrior, he cannot gain his lords pleasure as a warrior. He can still collect skulls and reap a bloody toll. He is given the weapons needed to do so

Dreadnaught stats. +1 Attack Ws5

if the Dreadnaught is Immobilised he will count as destroyed as the Dreadanaught tears himself apart in his own rage.

Troops

World Eaters-

As Codex: Chaos

Legionaires

The Legions of Khorne are full of many warriors. Many believe the way to gain their lords favour is by removing the head. others believe that in the 41st Millenium that Khorne favours the greatest acts of slaughter. Favouring ranged weapons, especially those that will cause the greatest acts of carnage amongst the foe.

Khornate marines with Bolters, no furious charge, Ws5

No CCW but do have a pistol

Can take all normal options but can take a second Heavy Bolter in the place of a special weapon.

Daemons

when called from the warp Daemons of Khorne are strong, yet short lasting. They are in a maddened frenzy of crushing and pulping and will kill all who they are directed to until their energy fades away.

Daemon Stats, +1 Ws, +1 Attack, +1 Strength, 5+ invulnerable. Will lose D3 models every turn they arnt in combat.

Bloodletters

Rarely a retinue of Bloodletters will be gifted to a champion as a reward from Khorne. They are the greatest of Khornes warriors, inspiring terror in their foes as weapons fire bounces from their Hides and men die screaming on their Brass blades.

Codex 3.5 Stats, Ws5

Power weapons
5+ invulnerable only

0-1 unit.

Fast Attack

Bloodshriekers

Raptors with +1 Ws +1 A and furious charge.

Bikers- +1Ws, Furious Charge. Able to take Brazen lances (rending attacks)

Flesh Hounds

Flesh hounds are the Personification of the Hunt. They outrun and catch their prey before tearing it apart in their jaws. They are rare in Khornate cults due to the energy and power needed to sustain them.

3.5 codex stats

Beast Movement

Gain Furious charge if charging a unit who is running away.

Heavy Support

Havocs

Havocs are a position of great power in Khornate Society as they are able to cause the most damage at once. All warriors envy the havocs and aspire to join their ranks.

Havocs +1 Ws

Can take Heavy Bolters with +1 Shot OR with suspensors.
Can take other heavy weapons as normal.

Predator As normal

Land raider As Normal

Its around midnight so my brain has slowely deteriorated 9as you can see) over time. But im sure you can see what i am saying.

Thanks for inviting me here, any questions could be answered easily

Pandion40
03-02-2008, 12:04
would you care to expand on that a little further? what was it you would have like to have been able to do, but could not? in what ways did you feel restricted? i'd like to hear your take on things.

I am not really into painting much so it takes allot of interest to get me moving, I’m also a little lazy I guess. I find the Cult Legions to one dimensional it’s not as bad with Khorne as I like berserkers, but with Tzeentch and Slaanesh even though I like the theme of these Gods the Thousand sons do not interest me. The emperor’s children do interest me but I dislike Noise marines.

I was interested in the Night Lords for a while. I really liked the whole selfish out for themselves vibe, They despised Chaos worshipers just as much as those who worship the Emperor. But as Time went on they went away from this feel and concentrated more on the causing terror aspect. I would have preferred them to play up this aspect to the extent where they pray on everyone equally. This was probably done so they would fit better into one Chaos codex but this thread is on what we want not what is practical.

I am currently interested in the Alpha Legion I used to despise them when they had the little brother complex but I find their newer background very interesting. I would like them to explore the whole the fact that they operate inside the Imperium. If they toned down the whole Chaos armour style maybe used Imperial models with an Alpha Legion sprue they could operate almost openly as only the Inquisition and a select few others would be able to recognise who they are. I am eagerly awaiting the Novel Legion, I hope they do something special and different to all the other Legions that fell.




well that's likely to be something of a struggle, because unless they change the background currently anyone who bears the Mark of Slaanesh is by default a Noise Marine, in the same way that to bear the Mark of Khorne means you are a Bezerker (regardless of how you interpret that). the problem really occurs because Noise Marine is something of a missnomer. not all Noise Marines carry sonic weapons, but they do all have +1 I. i do agree though it would be nice to see some units that bear the Mark of Slaanesh and perform a different function to the sorts of heavy weapon units we are used to. (but then the same is true of those that bear the Mark of Khorne and Nurgle, and we have yet to see and actual cult troop of Tzeentch).

I feel chaos is too regimented at the moment. Like people have said before a berserker is exactly the same no matter what legion or chapter he comes from, l would like this to change. I also think The Thousand sons are the result of special circumstances and as you said we are yet to see a truly Tzeentch cult troop. Slaanesh is all about different and extreme sensations Noise Marines are so one dimensional plus I find them a little silly to be honest.



then anything GW does can only exceed or match your expectations. a wise plan. imagine big, but expect little.

Indeed It is not that I doubt the designers talent it's just that I feel fitting the full potential of all the Traitor Marines into One or Even Two Books is an impossible task.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-02-2008, 12:17
Varath, I actually agree with you somewhat about Khorne. The whole psyker thing sounds iffy, but I can see how a warrior might use -all- of his skills to enhance his combat and ability to take skulls for Lord Khorne.

I agree that the Berzerker aspect is too played up. Look at Kharn's entry. Those Berzerkers (other than the Betrayer himself) are fairly sane, rational, tactical; ruthless, to be sure, but not to the point where they need to be chained up between battles.

I also think that the aspect of any god of war- martial honor, pride, etc.- isn't seen enough. I mean, last Codex it was mentioned, but I don't recall any reference in this one.

As a god of war, Khorne also must respect those who excel at blasting their foes from afar. His followers who are superior at such tactics (e.g. Havocs) would probably be more skilled than other warriors at that trade.

But GW has kind of dumbed Khorne down a bit. One reason I like Tzeentch so much- there's little in the way of dumbing him down, just because his aspect by its nature is complex.

AdmiralDick
03-02-2008, 14:59
now that there's a little space between the this and the opening post i'd quite like to expond upon my own ideas (i didn't want to start a thread and then force it to be all about my ideas). most of which you've probably heard from me already or someone else, but i'd still like the chance to get my own views 'out there'. but there are a couple of provisos first:

1) the absolute first thing i would want to get across is that if any of the Legions are to be developed at all, they will need to have the end in mind before the process should be undertaken. although its not the best list ever i think the DE list is a pinacle of games design, because everything in that list (including wargear) has a synergy that they all work to the same purpose. they may have different ways of getting there, that what gives an army versatility and adds interest, but they all have the same goal in mind.

so for that reason i would suggest an end difference/in-game playstyle that i want each army to emphasise and then look for mechanics that can acheive that. rather than a grape shot effect of suggesting anything i can justify, regardless of whether it takes me to where i want to get to.

2) another point that i would like to make clear is that the only way of giving each list real value in the hands of a gamer, is to make them, not ultra-realistic representations of everything each legion can do, but a stylisation around the cheif characteristic/defining factor of each legion. that means your particular list might seem 'inflexible' or not as you imagine your particular part of your chosen legion to fight. that might be because i've got the idea of what the legion is like wrong, but equally it might be because you are trying to play the legion out of character. the later is certainly not wrong, or inappropriate, its your game play how you want, but perhaps look to a different one of the Legion codexes rather than saying the one that has the same name as your legion is wrong.

now that's out of the way.

Black Legion
Theme: I'm not 100% clear on this one yet. obviously the list should represent the tactical flexibility that made Horus the Warmaster. he could obviously deal with anything. however, its not the same as the squeaky clean swiss ary knife approach that the stoic/deliberately boring Ultramarines. they should be more lively than that. they were called the Lunar Wolves for a reason, and they are described as having strong accents. also they 'invented' daemonic possession and the Defiler. so they are obviously not quite the stick-in-the-muds that the UMs are, but i don't think that that character has been developed well enough for them to be distinguished at this point. (or at least i lack the imagination to invent such a difference).

Mechanics: other than Possessed and Defilers i've no idea, for the reasons given above. obviously still the largest and most flexible list to choose from, but certainly not the most specialist.

Word Bearers
Theme: troop heavy and lacking in specialism. probably more likely to cause the enemy to break and run than other legions.

Mechanics: the list should include a larger selection of troops choices than others, including various daemon types and cultists. the Dark Apostle should have more of an effect enemy leadership tests too. where as most Chaplians only focus on the spiritual well being of their troops, Dark Apostles should really unleash a tirade against the enemy to convince them of their false hope in the Emperor. that theme should be carried across various units (including vehicles) so that the WB simply overwhelm the troops that stay to fight against them. however, i would not include Cult Troops as this goes against the differentitation as i have argued earlier.

Iron Warriors
Theme: the most heavily long-range oriented of the legions, with a powerful counter assault. prefering the static environments of either defending or attacking a seige.

Mechanics: i would replace dedicated assault troops (like raptors) with similarly fast units, but they would be focussed on taking enemy fire power apart (like tanks) preventing them from trying to exploit the IW niche. hence 'sappers' would be raptors armed with democharges and meltaguns, rather than CCWs. to off set this IW would have an easier time getting heavy weapons into their army (either through easier access to HWs or more vehicals, and Warsmiths that are actually capable of maintaining such vehicals) and the whole army would have a sort of 'Waargh' that once per game would give all Infantry units Furious Charge and Fleet. it would be tricky to master, but could become devistating if used wisely.

Night Lords
Theme: very quick at taking the fight to the enemy, like to be quite fragile to compensate for this.

Mechanics: obviously including more raptors and bikes is a way forward, but i would want them to be weaker than other armies, otherwise they will simply own every game. to protect their rather more fragile design it would be cool to allow the NL player the option of paying a certain number of point and enforcing a night-fight game (being chaos they just bring the night with them).

Alpha Legio
Theme: very much a terrorist force, sowing confusion and panic in the enemy ranks.

Mechanics: if the rumours about the upcoming changes to Scouts and Infiltrators are true then giving Chosen Infiltrate may well be a big step towards their classic hydra/pincer manouver. i would also try and make the AL as different from the other legions as i could, maybe even having the only marines you'd have in the army being uber-hard Elites and HQs and everything else being cultist primarily designed to distract the opponent long enough for the Marines to appear and stab them in the back. or possibly allowing you to force an opponent to leave a unit in reserve or force an opponent redeploy a unit for every unit of choosen you take, showing just how much confusion the AL can cause. obviously having much fewer troops than other legions leaves the AL very vulnerable.

World Eaters
Theme: heavily anti-infantry (Khorne wants skulls not brake fluid after all) but flexible within how it achieves that. simple and straight forward, but not wasteful and stupid.

Mechanics: i've spoken a bit about this before, but for the sake of completeness; i would include a larger selection of relatively low-strength and possibly high ap weapons, all of which should have a high rate of fire or a blast template. the other half of the army would be the standard bezerkers (although, like Varath, i would make different types that could take on different opponents).i also like the idea of them being well trained but difficult to control, so i would bring back a toned down version of Blood Frezy that might sometimes cause them to shoot instead of charging. i also like Varath's idea of Blood Preists, although i would put a different spin on them, i would make them Comissar/Zagstrukk type characters that execute a squad member to maintain discipline (ties in nicely with Kharne too), this could be to re-roll failed Ld tests or Blood Frenzy tests.

Emperor's Children
Theme: to be almost an opposite of the straight forward confrontational approach of the WE, the Emperor's Children should be mid-ranged, never quite involved and never quite distant. they should be flexible and able to pick and choose targets.

Mechanics: i think the previous codex almost had this spot on. although there is plenty of room to include more units to bulk out this theme (ones with hit and run for instance).

Death Guard
Theme: as Imp Tyranid describes them, the Death Gaurd should be glacial. a very slow moving but increadibly powerful and unstopable force. the Steam Roller of the chaos Legions.

Mechanics: obviously the Death Guard will have to be increadibly tough, but chronically slow (so few transports, raptors and bikes). the tactic against them should be either wither their ranks before they get to you (which will be tricky), or try and avoid them altogether, because when they reach you, their counter assault will be more powerful than anything Khorne or Slaanesh could muster. they are to be a slow creeping death; an on-going decay and then a sudden end. absorbing everything the enemy can throw at them and still keeping on going.

and finally...

Thousand Sons
Theme: i left this one till last because much like the BL i really have know idea how these guys are supposed to fight. their units have changed considerably over the years and the background doesn't usually take into account how the regular rank and file troops behave. just that there are a lot of psykers and that's not really a theme or a way of doing things. can anyone explain ina couple of words what, in there experience, the Thousand Sons are all about?

Varath- Lord Impaler
03-02-2008, 21:54
i also like Varath's idea of Blood Preists, although i would put a different spin on them, i would make them Comissar/Zagstrukk type characters that execute a squad member to maintain discipline (ties in nicely with Kharne too), this could be to re-roll failed Ld tests or Blood Frenzy tests.


Thank you, but the blood priest is an existing character in the background. Taking the skull of a fellow warrior of Khorne angers Khorne because of the lost potential. If it is in fair combat then Khorne will be appeased, but in order to keep discipline? No, that isnt right.

Kharne is the opposite of what most Khornate characters would be like. While cutting your way closer to being khornes ultimate servant you bleed for him, that blood you give to him. Slowely you lose your individuality.

Usually when this happens, Lord Khorne elevates you to become a daemon, as you have given your life for him and have sacrificed many foes for him.

Kharne is, well, a strange case. Lord Khorne has not elevated him to Daemonhood and chooses to keep his servant mortal (although resurrecting him from death, which isnt often). Kharne has lost all individuality and is a monster of slaughter, he doesnt represent the norm of Khornate beliefs.

EDIT:



Theme: i left this one till last because much like the BL i really have know idea how these guys are supposed to fight. their units have changed considerably over the years and the background doesn't usually take into account how the regular rank and file troops behave. just that there are a lot of psykers and that's not really a theme or a way of doing things. can anyone explain ina couple of words what, in there experience, the Thousand Sons are all about?

The Thousand Sons are known to be masters of Misdirection. They use their powers to confuse and disorientate the foe before sending their servants to crush them utterly.

I would have a good number of sorcerors who all give different benefits to squads, Teleport (like Space Wolves 13th company) Deep strike, Infiltrate, scout.

Also i would have the list include more forms of Rubriced troops. Monstrous Golems and animated objects in the place of things which the rubric troops would have difficulty doing such as Havocs (ap3 heavy bolters :P :P) and raptors.

Above all, the Sorcerors should be key to the army, the army should be small, but strong, and able to outflank and outmanouvre any enemy army with their psychic abilities.

AdmiralDick
04-02-2008, 18:24
I might be offended that a writer who finds himself in a position to get published disrespects the background in the universe in which he writes.

i know a lot of people get a lot out of the BL novels, but i really try to avoid considering them as 'canon' background that drives games design, for the very reason you give. the authors of those books are, very infrequently, the originators of the background and as such they will often develop it in a quite different (and sometimes flatly wrong) direction. thus i tend to regard them when compared with Codexes, as i would regard Star Wars novels when compared to the movies. they are nice and fun, but frankly irrelevant and liable to be changed at when the next one comes along.

hence if i'm going to site anything it will be a Codex, rulebook, WD or very occasionally a non-novel book from BL (i.e. the background books).


Hmm, Wow, Being invited to a thread, usually im being kicked out with glasses thrown at me.

well, i know we've had our differences on other threads, but i genuinely was interested in hearing more about your ideas for the WE and other legions. And i deliberately started this thread because there had been a lot of people commenting that they were in unhappy with the way the Legions had been represented in either the current or the previous codexes, but were never given much chance to explain what they meant (and without that explaination it led to a lot of misunderstanding and arguements). but more importantly, whatever divides us Chaos fan's its clear that we all have common ground in that we'd like to see more! ;)


Chaos Champion.

Special rules.

Strength is all-

The Khornate Champion is a visible Avatar of Lord Khorne. If he fails then Khorne may remove his strength from him.

If a Khornate Champion misses with 5 or more attacks in any combat round, he instantly loses a wound. No saves of any kind.

i really like the concept of this special rule, it is wonderfully chaotic, in that the gifts of the gods are sometimes very similar to the punishments. it also really emphasises his martial prowess and how important it is to both Khorne and himself.


I would have preferred them to play up this aspect to the extent where they pray on everyone equally. This was probably done so they would fit better into one Chaos codex but this thread is on what we want not what is practical.

as you say the thread is really about what you want, so could you give us a bit of explination as to how you might have gone about 'playing up' the hating everyone aspect of the NL, without simply making them not Chaos Space Marines.


I feel chaos is too regimented at the moment.

i think a lot of us feel that at the moment. few things feel very 'unique'.


Varath, I actually agree with you somewhat about Khorne. The whole psyker thing sounds iffy, but I can see how a warrior might use -all- of his skills to enhance his combat and ability to take skulls for Lord Khorne.

like Varath (although not exaclty like), i've struggled a bit with the concept of Khorne's apparent distaste for magic. to an extent i can see that it is another string on his bow of difference, but thematically its never really held much weight.

we're told that his displeasure stems from seeing magic use as being trisky and false, where he prefers things straight forward. but that's never really been the way magic has worked in 40k. psykers are not people who are weak and ineffectual so plot and scheme indirectly at the back of the table. for the most part psychic powers are often little more than a glorified gun, and surely Khorne could hardly be against that?! more to the point how to followers of Khorne summon daemons without using magic or incantations? and if they don't need to, then surely there is no such need to summon daemons of any other power?

i can readily imagine that Bloodthirsters might have a power called 'Rain of Swords' or something, which simply drops a pie plate on a near by unit before they kicks ten shades of pain into them, or 'Flesh of Stone', which causes them to become even stronger and tougher. neither of those would fly in the face of Khornate logic.

maybe the sudden love for magic might be a bit extreme (and who doesn't love a Collar of Khorne), so perhaps a different form of magic might be more appropriate; like how Dwarves apparently don't use magic in Fantasy.

conversely, Tzeentch spells rarely seem to be more complex than a Lacannon. why don't they twist fate and change the world. tricking an opponent into hurting themselves or at the very least falling into the Tzeentch champions clutches. it would make the whole thing make a lot more sense if they did.


Thank you, but the blood priest is an existing character in the background.

could you point me to a place where you read about them; i can find references to preist like characters (in Libre Chaotica and Slaves to Darkness) but nothing very specific. if there is such a character i'd love to read up more about him.


Taking the skull of a fellow warrior of Khorne angers Khorne because of the lost potential. If it is in fair combat then Khorne will be appeased, but in order to keep discipline? No, that isnt right.

hmm, think we're probably reaching another disagreement point here. i can find several references to Khorne being pleased with duplicity:


Khorne is the Power of Chaos in its aspect of mindless and absolute violence, destroying everything and everyone within reach, slaying both friend and foe alike.

[...]

Every life taken by a follower of Khorne increases the blood god's power. He looks with particular favour upon those who take the lives of their friends and allies.


Khorne Cares not from whence the blood flows. Neither do I...


[Khorne Bezerkers'] delight in pain and death is so strong that they have been known to attack their comrades in blind rage and, if no opponent is present, to even fall upon their own weapons as sacrifices to Khorne.


Champions of Khorne are unpredictable fighters, for they believe that a day gone by without a death in Khorne's name is wasted. For this reason, they are as likely to attack friends as much as foes...


Even the weapon itself [a Fantasy Chainsword] seems to favour Khorne, often as eager to rebound and tear through the guts of its weilder as the foe...

Khorne seems unconcerned from whom the skulls of his thrown are take, just that there is a constant supply of them. the archetype of this would of course be Kharn, he i clearly very rebellious and disenting, and yet he is highly regarded by Khorne. the two go hand in hand.

also, from a thematic point of veiw it seems quite likely that higher ranking officers would command through brutality and fear. how is one supposed to encourage another to follow in the cult of Khorne? by asking nicely? by trying to come up with cunning arguments with which to coerce or confuse? or by simply beating your underlings into submission until they do things right? in that sense i can happily see World Eaters (and Khornate followers in general) maintaining strick martial practices by severly punishing those who are cowardly till everyone else joins in simply to avoid the same fate (and one day be the bully rather than the victim). a nice and simple heirachy, just as Khorne pleases. also i wouldn't be surprised if such discipline was juat a way of working out petty differences by simply turning and shooting their antagoniser. 'that guy will never answer back again, because he's got no head'.


Kharne is the opposite of what most Khornate characters would be like.

Whilst i agree that Kharn might be quite different to other WE (who he regards as cowardly) you have to accept that their is a natural tension in the very concept of Chaos. it is, by definition, a rebellious spirit. inclined towards difference and pride. the Chaos gods are all of one nature, but each thinks of themselves as individual and capable of exisiting without at least one other, but this is utterly untrue.

thus the more chaotic you are less like anyone else you are and thus the less 'chaotic' you are, in that you imply don't fit in.


The Thousand Sons are known to be masters of Misdirection. They use their powers to confuse and disorientate the foe before sending their servants to crush them utterly.

whilst i agree whole heartedly that the servants of Tzeentch should be tricksy and false, the very thing Tzeentch loves and Khorne hates, i'm still not sure how that would play out on a table (mostly because no Tzeentchen army to date has ever actually followed this ideal to its conclusion).

i think that it would be a very no-commital army. lots of hit and run units, joining combat and then leaving again, before the enemy had the chance to strike back. it would also be cool to use the enemies strengths and weaknesses against them, perhaps utalising a sort of switcharoo mechanic like Van Horstmans Speculum or possibly like the Justice World from Red Dwarf.

i agree that a certain flexibilty in movement might be a bonus (leading people up the garden path) but i'm not convinced it could reasonably fulfill a central role.

scratchbuilt
04-02-2008, 18:50
I think we should try to be faithful to previous lists, and not try to invent totally new units. It takes GW a long time to push out a new batch of squad rules, we have to make the legio's as short as possible.

Thousand sons
Units may deep strike as terminators. Just troops, possessed (psychic), dreads, rhinos, and termies.
Good shooting - backed up by (not overpriced) sorcerors in units. Lots of Rhinos to keep them mobile. Small but shooty and mobile.

Vaktathi
04-02-2008, 18:59
Personally, I'd like to see each Legion get its own list, similar to the last Chaos book but a bit more in depth and characterful.

Here's sort of what I'm envisioning

Night Lords:
deep striking CSM's and Termi's with lots of Raptors, emphasis placed on getting troops into certain positions and mobility and appearing where least expected, maybe allow for reroll of Night Fight if desired? Limited access to certain HS choices. Maybe a special lighting claw equipped Raptor unit?

Iron Warriors:
Mostly similar to current CSM list but with emphasis on shooting. Maybe allow Termi squads up to 12 strong and allowing an RAC or Heavy Flamer for every 3 in the squad or maybe take Terminators as Troops and more weapons options for basic CSM's, emphasis on tanks and heavy infantry, Limited Daemon access (maybe only DP's) and limited FA options (which will actually hurt this time around) No "cult" troops (meaning Noise Marines, Tsons, etc). Only allow for "Glory" and Khorne" Icons on anything but HQ's.

Alpha Legion:
reintroduce cultists and allow Chosen as troops, allow for Infiltrate to be bought for limited numbers of other FoC slots (say like one Havoc squad can infiltrate but not all 3?)

Word Bearers:
Reintroduce specific lesser daemons as troops, allow access to a "Chaplain" type HQ, maybe allow for other FoC slots to be taken from Daemon codex?

World Eaters:
Mostly the same as last time around, allowing for Terminator Berserkers and the like instead of the current "Terminators with Khorne Icon". Allow only 1 Daemon Prince or Lord HQ.

Emperor's Children:
Again, mostly same as last time around, allow for Sonic weaponry on vehicles and dreads, remove access to Raptors however. Again, bring back actual Noise Terminators and Havocs (meaning Fearless and Sonic weaponry).

Thousand Sons:
Tsons as troops obviously, Reintroduce the Rubric Terminator (I'm thinking along the lines of a T5 2+/4+ S&P termi maybe?) and allow for some sort of Rubric Havoc squad. No Raptors or Bikes.

Death Guard:
Bring back Plague terminators (not just Nurgle icon termi's) emphasis on footslogging troops, termi's, chosen and bikes.

kenshin138
04-02-2008, 19:04
Death Guard:

HQ:
- Chaos Lord: (same as current w/ FnP and blight grenades, no bike or jump pack option)
- Chaos Sorcerer (same as above)
- Daemon Prince (no changes)
- Typhus (no changes)

Elite:
- Plague Chosen (same as current only fearless/FnP/blight +x points, and a better name...),
- Dreadnoughts w/o crazed at increased points (valued by DG due to their foot-trooper-ness)
- Plague Terminators (same w/ fearless, FnP, land raider allowed)

Troops:
- Plague Marines (same as current, no rhino option)
- Plague Terminators (same w/ fearless, FnP, no land-raider. DG are always said to have used more terminator armor than most legions, this would reflect that)
- Plaguebearers (whatever they are in Daemon Codex)
- Nurglings (whatever they are in daemon coded)

Fast Attack:
- Plague Marines (same as current, allow Rhino)
- Spawn (same as current)
- If they have FA in Codex: Daemons then put that here...

Heavy Support:
- Predator
- Defiler
- Vindicator
- Plague Havocs (fearless, FnP, blight +x pts, full heavy weapons allowed, no rhino)
- Land Raider

Basically it would allow for a true "Death Guard" army similar to how its shown in most books. Terminators as Troops would fit in well with the fluff, and give a bonus for losing transports for most. Havocs are very fluffy and would be expensive, but still cool so you could field a no-vehicle list if you wanted to).

It wouldn't be over-powered by any means. Maybe allow the free champs for 7/14 man units again, not sure. Also not sure if I like the idea of allowing a full "Plaguewing" force w/ terminators, raiders, and daemons. Maybe 1+ on the Troops PM units, or simply saying terminator squads may never out-number Plague Marine squads.

Just quick thoughts using the current items, not sure if their plans are to include new stuff.

StanMcKim
04-02-2008, 19:14
Well, I'm a Death Guard player. I'd like to see:

Blight grenades, feel no pain, and -1 inititive for all
HQ
Lose the wings/bike choices for all HQ choices except maybe the Daemon Prince. I'd like to see some plague-y upgrades instead like the old Plague Sword and nurgling infestation.

A proper Great Unclean One

more nurgle powers than just nurgle's rot.

Elites
Plague Terminators, as this is very in line with the Index Astartes article. Sure they'd be sick with their 2+ armour, 5+ invul and 4+ feel no pain but they'd also be expensive as hell and only inititive 3.

I'd take infiltrate away from Chosen, but in exchange I'd give them an extra wound. Now *thats* an elite Plague Marine!

I'd lose the Dreadnaught random table and instead give them slow and purposeful with the ability to shoot all their weapons (From what I gather, walkers in 5th will only be able to fire one weapon). I'd also give them a 6+ cover save even in the open.

Nurgle Possessed would be very similar, however they'd have the mark of nurgle and their random daemon power table would be different. Perhaps something like
1: poison attacks that wound on a 4+
2: poison attacks that wound on a 2+
3: rending
4: +1 toughness
5: +1 wound
6: Power weapons

Troops
Nurglings who get a bonus versus tanks due to their capering and breaking things. They would count as troops but not take up any force org spots.

Plaguebearers, however they appear in the daemon book also not taking up any force org slots.

Plague Marine troops would lose the rhino option. Footsloggers, remember? Maybe give their "go to ground" save a +1

Plague Marine squads with rhinos counting as fast attack
Plaguebeasts of nurgle (sort of a variation on the spawn)
That would be it for fast attack

Heavy Support
Eh, pretty much the same although probably drop Obliterators from the list.

-Stan

The Song of Spears
04-02-2008, 20:02
Wow, what a great bundle of ideas! I am taking this all down and am going to compile the most popular ideas. Who knows where it might lead ;)

Fulgrim's Gimp
04-02-2008, 20:18
What about for EC's having Chosen of Lucius with an upgrade to WS to reflect martial pride. I would also think lesser Slaanesh daemons need to start in play as fleet and summoning could be too powerful. The return of combat drugs would be nice.

For Death Guard what about a new character such as a plague apothecary with access to unit enhancing plagues ? Also the return of the plaguesword would be nice.Also for sheer wackiness for the cult legions what about beast riders ? Such as pallanquin riding plague marines in fast attack, disc riders for TS (without the 4+ inv though) etc.

Varath- Lord Impaler
05-02-2008, 09:07
i really like the concept of this special rule, it is wonderfully chaotic, in that the gifts of the gods are sometimes very similar to the punishments. it also really emphasises his martial prowess and how important it is to both Khorne and himself.

Its also fun if you combine it with his other rule again, say, an avatar.

:P


could you point me to a place where you read about them; i can find references to preist like characters (in Libre Chaotica and Slaves to Darkness) but nothing very specific. if there is such a character i'd love to read up more about him.


Hmmm, sorry. I must have lost my head that night. I meant just priestly characters.

But let me quote this:


They are the closest to a priesthood of the shrines and, as befits the Blood God, they are fearsome warriors in their own right, and so it is as warrior priests that we shall refer to them.

They travel endlessly from Shrine to shrine visiting all: the temples, the settlement hearths, even perhaps the lost and forgotten altars deep in the wilds. What they will do there is unclear, however the arrival will often draw young warriors to the shrine in order that they may chance the god's blessing. Sometimes the warrior-priest will send these youths away, others he will attack; but a few he will allow entrance to the shrine and they will emerge a changed man or not at all.

Liber Khorne

Im afraid most of my beliefs on the Blood priests stem from my study of the Chaos gods at a whole. Ill explain more thoroughly soon.


hmm, think we're probably reaching another disagreement point here. i can find several references to Khorne being pleased with duplicity:

[Snip]

Khorne seems unconcerned from whom the skulls of his thrown are take, just that there is a constant supply of them. the archetype of this would of course be Kharn, he i clearly very rebellious and disenting, and yet he is highly regarded by Khorne. the two go hand in hand.

That is true, very true, and cannot be ignored. But the answers that found are in many other places. One of the best sources is From Liber Slaanesh in the 'Conversing with the damned'.

First we need to consider that while all gods are totally different in their actions and followers, they are similar in their nature. They are very similar in their way they are created.

Think on this for a moment:



Richter Kleiss: You worship a proscribed deity, one that encourages you towards the most horrific acts in His name.

Alphonse Dolmance: Is it the crime of your own austere religion that it insists all of the works of the Chaos Gods are irredeemably horrific. Clearly this cannot be the case. Am I horrific? No, don't answer. I fear that bore Sigmar has knocked too much sense out of you for you to give me a fair and reasoned reply. Think on this instead: If the Chaos Gods represented only suffering and ugliness then they would surely gain few converts, and without the souls of converts to feed them and drive them on, their power would eventually begin to fade from our world. Why would they risk harming themselves by driving away the laity?

This quote (mostly the whole conversation, but you should read it for youself. Its masterful and very informative) tells me a few things about the nature of the chaos gods. That they gain converts through their nice aspects. For Khorne this would definatly be the cult of the warrior, the chance to be the greatest fighter, the concept of honour, of Strength and power. All raw emotions which can be won through combat.

"But Varath" You may say, "Eventually they turn into mindless beserkers, dont they?"

Well, why should they? Converts are shaped by gods, true. But gods are shaped by Converts. The cult of the warrior would attribute the belief of honour and dignity through combat to khorne, making him more powerful due to the greater span of his domain, of the emotions he epitomises, but also changes him to incorporate these emotions and beliefs.

A person becomes what he believes khorne to be. He is changed by his own belief in his master.

The reason we see most Khornate soldiers to be beserkers is because the world eaters are our main source on the subject of khorne. They were beserkers before they fell for khorne, so thus their belief in him didnt change much.

But this means it would be concievable to have countless cults of Duelists, of Warriors seeking honour through Combat. As they took skulls for khorne, their own belief would make khorne strengthen them in their own methods and beliefs. Where all other things become Immaterial compared to the ultimate rush of honour in combat.



also, from a thematic point of veiw it seems quite likely that higher ranking officers would command through brutality and fear. how is one supposed to encourage another to follow in the cult of Khorne? by asking nicely? by trying to come up with cunning arguments with which to coerce or confuse? or by simply beating your underlings into submission until they do things right? in that sense i can happily see World Eaters (and Khornate followers in general) maintaining strick martial practices by severly punishing those who are cowardly till everyone else joins in simply to avoid the same fate (and one day be the bully rather than the victim). a nice and simple heirachy, just as Khorne pleases. also i wouldn't be surprised if such discipline was juat a way of working out petty differences by simply turning and shooting their antagoniser. 'that guy will never answer back again, because he's got no head'.


Khornate Hierarchy will always be rule of the greatest, it is down to the cult to determine who is the greatest and in what context. Some may be the strongest, some may be the most skilled, some may even be the cruellest.

But it is always through the beliefs of the cult that the strongest is rewarded. And this belief fuels khorne.


Whilst i agree that Kharn might be quite different to other WE (who he regards as cowardly) you have to accept that their is a natural tension in the very concept of Chaos. it is, by definition, a rebellious spirit. inclined towards difference and pride. the Chaos gods are all of one nature, but each thinks of themselves as individual and capable of exisiting without at least one other, but this is utterly untrue.

thus the more chaotic you are less like anyone else you are and thus the less 'chaotic' you are, in that you imply don't fit in.

I think our disagreement comes from context. I am talking on Khornate followers as a whole, while you are talking on the World Eaters. If you are talking about World Eaters, then yes Kharn is almost an epitomy of them.

But in the realm of all Khornate cults, Kharne is hardly the norm, or the avatar.


Justice World from Red Dwarf.

I have to say that i love that episode. :P

AdmiralDick
05-02-2008, 16:29
I think we should try to be faithful to previous lists, and not try to invent totally new units. It takes GW a long time to push out a new batch of squad rules, we have to make the legio's as short as possible.

i guess that depends on how you interpret being 'faithful to previous lists'. do you mean faithful to the rules, or faithful to the concepts? because the undivided legions have basically never had a set of rules to call there own, just breif adaptations of the core list. where as the cult legions rules have changed dramatically over time.

although i agree with Einstein in that 'Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler.' and i think one well written codex with a strong possibility of variety is better than several, i don't think that innovation is something to be avoided. if we are faithful to the rules, then we have nothing to build from, where as if we are faithful to the concepts we are bound into moving further from the norm than i think you would like.

IMO if we are going to see Legion lists at all, they ought to be worth seeing. radically different enough to warrent playing with them rather than another list, but similar enought to know that you are playig CSM.


Thousand sons
Units may deep strike as terminators. Just troops, possessed (psychic), dreads, rhinos, and termies.
Good shooting - backed up by (not overpriced) sorcerors in units. Lots of Rhinos to keep them mobile. Small but shooty and mobile.

but what makes this different from even the most mundane SM army? why write a book for this list?

StanMcKim
05-02-2008, 17:36
You know, I've never really noticed this before, but the 4 marked special characters in the Chaos Space Marines codex are all exiles of a sort. Ahriman doesn't associate with the true Thousand Sons legion, Typhus has struck out on his own, Kharne... well, he's Kharne, and Lucius kind of "follows" who ever kills him rather than staying with the Legion.
With a Cult Codex you could show some true Legion special characters.
-Stan

AdmiralDick
05-02-2008, 18:51
Im afraid most of my beliefs on the Blood priests stem from my study of the Chaos gods at a whole. Ill explain more thoroughly soon.

i had read that section before, although i don't know whether it adds much weight to either side of the discussion (unless you count the preist chacing people away :p)


One of the best sources is From Liber Slaanesh in the 'Conversing with the damned'.

although i love Liber Chaotica (i have the combined edition), it can be quite misleading. it is deliberately written to make you increasingly sympathise with the Choas gods, or at least their followers, and it not entirely neutral. you are supposed to follow Kless' journey as he himself becomes seduced by chaos.

and i do mean seduced. the Chaos Gods ultimately offer nothing good to those that follow them (they care nothing for you personally and wish to devour and torture your soul), and presumed benefit inbetween time is trickery to draw you closer to them. in that sense they are very much like the One Ring and the classical image of sin; they are tempting, in that they offer you something you want or even lead you into wanting something they offer, and then lead you to believe that it is reasonable to want that thing. however, the thing they give you is ultimately not to your benefit.

the book is well worth reading, and i a good source of material and background on Chaos, but it needs to be taken for what it is, not what it appears to be.

the truth is that regardless of whether chaos is genuinely convincing, they are meant to be the bad guys of the background (even if the good guys don't have clean hands). they are meant to be ultimately repellent and evil. and they are meant to lead all of their followers from reason, to desire, to madness, to destruction. to side-step that is to loose the purpose of Chaos in the background.


This quote (mostly the whole conversation, but you should read it for youself. Its masterful and very informative) tells me a few things about the nature of the chaos gods. That they gain converts through their nice aspects. For Khorne this would definatly be the cult of the warrior, the chance to be the greatest fighter, the concept of honour, of Strength and power. All raw emotions which can be won through combat.

agreed, no cult (whether 'good' or evil) could win converts unless they start off with something that the unconverted can relate to. almost always where Khorne is described it says something along the lines that people usually join his cult through an attraction to martial pride and honour.

but as reality shows us honour cultures can lead to som of the most dishonourable things imaginable (murdering one's own children is not unheard of).


"But Varath" You may say, "Eventually they turn into mindless beserkers, dont they?"

Well, why should they? Converts are shaped by gods, true. But gods are shaped by Converts.

an interesting point, but you are probably falling for the seductive lie that the Marquis fed you. why should the followers of Chaos shape the Gods? a god forms, initially at least, as a coagulate of a particular emotion in the Warp. thus the only thing that adds to that god is the same thing. if i imagine Slaanesh to be nice, it adds nothing to him. i am just misguided. if i imagine Slaanesh is nice and he uses my naivety to perform some self absorbed act of sensuality, then he gains power and i am still under the impression that he's on my side (even though the opposite is true, because he is actively deceiving me).

the truth is that this is fiction and so there is no fix mathmatical law that it can be reduced to. its simplest components might not logically link together, as we of a logical disposition might like them to. as such, the Chaos Gods are evil and are in a relationship with humans that causes great tension, at once they both want to see humans destroyed (anything else would be a maintainence of order and that is the opposite of chaos) and at the same time require humans to sustain them and give them power.

certainly i don't think that all followers of Chaos are by necessity mad nor do i think they can be unreasoned (they can be blind to the truth or mistaken), however the logical conclusion of Chaos is madness and then destruction (whether they reach this point in their lives is another matter).


The reason we see most Khornate soldiers to be beserkers is because the world eaters are our main source on the subject of khorne. They were beserkers before they fell for khorne, so thus their belief in him didnt change much.

well, the reason i believe that most Khornate soldiers become bezerk in battle is because they are usually depicted that way (as opposed to the delicate and 'skilled' fashion of Slaaneshi soldiers). however, i agree that the reason that Khorne Bezerkers are often imagined to be frothing mad slaughterers is because that is how the World Eaters are depicted. (another reason to think that Kharn is extreme, but not on a different page to the rest of the legion).


I think our disagreement comes from context. I am talking on Khornate followers as a whole, while you are talking on the World Eaters. If you are talking about World Eaters, then yes Kharn is almost an epitomy of them.

But in the realm of all Khornate cults, Kharne is hardly the norm, or the avatar.

i don't think of the WE as being the norm, but i also don't think of them as being unlike other Khornate soldiers (after all we are really talking about only soldiers and not civillians here) from either 40k or Fantasy. they are part of the whole. Khorne naturally inspires splintering (perhaps more than other gods) and that Kharn is alone and an outcaste, is no mark against his devotion to Khorne.

when we compare him with other Khornate characters (Scyla Afinngrim, Arbaal Undefeated and Doombreed) we see that although he i probably more keen to slaughter his own troops than the others (because the are faulter, not because he's unhinged) they are equally as eratic in their fighting (shown by the number of Attacks they all have).

Kharn is not an abnormal Khornate character, although he is perhaps not the pinacle of Khornate characters. but it would be difficult to imagine such a archetype not possessing something of Kharn's prediliction for slaughtering everyone, friend or foe.


But this means it would be concievable to have countless cults of Duelists, of Warriors seeking honour through Combat. As they took skulls for khorne, their own belief would make khorne strengthen them in their own methods and beliefs.

well, except for the fact that dueling does not normally lead to skull taking, unless it is a lot more brutal than fencing and pistols.


Khornate Hierarchy will always be rule of the greatest, it is down to the cult to determine who is the greatest and in what context. Some may be the strongest, some may be the most skilled, some may even be the cruellest.

well the heirachy i was specifcally talking about was a 'preistly' one. how does a cult of Khorne teach its members about the way of Khorne without preaching and electioneering? presumably by guiding members practically into the right situations, and showing the sort of reaction the enemy should be teated to on those that are not so willing to follow.

oops. this is very long. sorry to everyone else.

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-02-2008, 19:05
You make some good points about WE, AdmiralDick, but personally I feel that the depiction of Berzerkers as mindless headhunters with no sense of tactics or purpose is bringing their norm too close to the oddity that is Kharne. If you'll refer to Kharn's entry in the Codex, the Berzerkers are not anything like Kharn save their prowress in combat and their dedication to Khorne. They work tactically, and approach battle with a (relatively) sound mind. Then Kharne comes along and they get owned.

I like how, in that particular entry, Kharn's name seems to be used as a warning (like shouting 'grenade' or 'incoming'). :D

AdmiralDick
05-02-2008, 19:46
i didn't intend to depict Bezerkers as 'mindless', i certainly don't think that they are that. but on the otherhand i think that that is largely because they are not all mighty champions of Khorne. if they were, then the legion would be even more fracious and there would be no warbands at all.

i simply think that Bezerkers are like the ancient Norse bezerkers. they well know their limits (even if they are very minor), but they wait until the time is right and then work themselves into a frenzy. in which they are blind to pain, compassion, reason and sometimes the difference between 'friend' and foe. Kharn is merely the apex of this. he is constantly frenzied and sees everyone as an enemy who's head should be taken for khorne, (even if some of his enemies are willing to help him take others heads for Khorne). he is stuck in this frezied state, and although it settle somewhat when not directly in combat he remains ferocious.

all i'm getting at is that Kharn is extreme but not abnormal for a follower of Khorne (unless you mean abnormally extreme). he's just one end of the spectrum, the other end being someone who doesn't follow Chaos at all.

The Song of Spears
05-02-2008, 21:05
i didn't intend to depict Bezerkers as 'mindless', i certainly don't think that they are that. but on the otherhand i think that that is largely because they are not all mighty champions of Khorne. if they were, then the legion would be even more fracious and there would be no warbands at all.

i simply think that Bezerkers are like the ancient Norse bezerkers. they well know their limits (even if they are very minor), but they wait until the time is right and then work themselves into a frenzy. in which they are blind to pain, compassion, reason and sometimes the difference between 'friend' and foe. Kharn is merely the apex of this. he is constantly frenzied and sees everyone as an enemy who's head should be taken for khorne, (even if some of his enemies are willing to help him take others heads for Khorne). he is stuck in this frezied state, and although it settle somewhat when not directly in combat he remains ferocious.

all i'm getting at is that Kharn is extreme but not abnormal for a follower of Khorne (unless you mean abnormally extreme). he's just one end of the spectrum, the other end being someone who doesn't follow Chaos at all.

I like the way you put this - it shall be added...

ReveredChaplainDrake
05-02-2008, 21:56
World Eaters:
-only Khorne Berserkers, Daemons (inc Spawn), and units w/ Icons of Khorne can be taken
-Chosen have +1WS
-all Lesser Daemons and Greater Daemons have +1 Strength
-Spawn get 1+D6 attacks
-they alone may use Kharn the Betrayer

Death Guard:
-only Plague Marines, Daemons (inc Spawn), and units w/ Icons of Nurgle can be taken
-all Lesser Daemons have +1 Toughness
-Greater Daemons have +1 Wounds
-Spawn get T6
-they alone may use Typhus

Thousand Sons:
-only Thousand Sons, Daemons (inc Spawn), and units w/ Icons of Tzeentch can be taken
-Greater Daemons have 1 free Psychic Power and always pass the Psy Test (and never suffer PotW, but this can be negated as if it was casted)
-all Lesser Daemons have 4+ IV saves (could get slightly broken...)
-Spawn get 5+ IV save
-they alone may use Ahriman

Emperor's Children:
-only Noise Marines, Daemons, and units w/ Icons of Slaaneesh can be taken
-all Lesser Daemons and Greater Daemons have +1 Initiative
-Spawn lose Slow & Purposeful
-they alone may use Lucius

Word Bearers:
-all units that can have Icons (including Personal Icons) must do so
-Chaos HQs and joined squad also becomes Fearless
-must take one Chaos Lord that:
-has a 4+ IV save (and costs more)
-cannot have any Marks
-makes the joined squad Fearless
-does not count towards the FoC limit
-Greater Daemons count towards (and against) the 1-2 HQ limit
-Greater Daemons have Personal Icons
-Lesser Daemons get Sustained Assault, as if fighting Grey Knights

Night Lords:
-0-1 non-Chaos Glory Icons
-1 unit of Raptors may be taken as Troops
-all characters must have Wings or a Bike
-cheaper Lightning Claws on characters and Chosen

Iron Warriors:
-0-1 non-Chaos Glory Icons
-1 unit of Havocs may be taken as Troops
-cheaper Combi-Weapons on Characters, Chosen, and Tanks
-all characters must have Terminator Armor

Alpha Legion:
-0-1 non-Chaos Glory Icons
-1 unit of Chosen may be taken as Troops
-all characters on foot and in Power Armor may join a unit of Chosen and gain the Infiltrate USR

Black Legion:
-they alone may use Abaddon
-0-1 Defiler as Elite (iffy...)
-exclusive use of new Special Character: Daemon Prince Dhar'leth

Varath- Lord Impaler
05-02-2008, 22:11
i had read that section before, although i don't know whether it adds much weight to either side of the discussion (unless you count the preist chacing people away )

The Problem with some sources on the chaos gods is that you really need to think hard sometimes on their nature to get the answers you want.

The problem is that thinking so hard means that you will get the answers you want, not those who are true.

But i prefer it that way, sometimes variation is a good thing :P



although i love Liber Chaotica (i have the combined edition), it can be quite misleading. it is deliberately written to make you increasingly sympathise with the Choas gods, or at least their followers, and it not entirely neutral. you are supposed to follow Kless' journey as he himself becomes seduced by chaos./quote]

Ive got the collected and the singular (ooo pissing contest :P). Although it is written to seduce the reader, its also a true depiction of the chaos gods. The chaos gods are beings of emotion, both good and bad, which means that they represent both the good and the bad of an emotion.

If a couple is lost in love, they fuel Slaanesh, for example.

[quote]
and i do mean seduced. the Chaos Gods ultimately offer nothing good to those that follow them (they care nothing for you personally and wish to devour and torture your soul), and presumed benefit inbetween time is trickery to draw you closer to them. in that sense they are very much like the One Ring and the classical image of sin; they are tempting, in that they offer you something you want or even lead you into wanting something they offer, and then lead you to believe that it is reasonable to want that thing. however, the thing they give you is ultimately not to your benefit.





the book is well worth reading, and i a good source of material and background on Chaos, but it needs to be taken for what it is, not what it appears to be.

the truth is that regardless of whether chaos is genuinely convincing, they are meant to be the bad guys of the background (even if the good guys don't have clean hands). they are meant to be ultimately repellent and evil. and they are meant to lead all of their followers from reason, to desire, to madness, to destruction. to side-step that is to loose the purpose of Chaos in the background.

No, seperating people into good guys and bad guys isnt a true way of depicting them.

The bad guy is the one who is trying to hurt you, no matter his religion, his race or his species.

Even then, the bad guy may have good reason to hurt you, so who is the bad guy?

But they arent the big bad temptation, they are a reflection of human (and non human) emotions. They are the archetypes which influence people to do certain things (to love, to be the greatest, to escape corruption and death, and to control and change and create new life, Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch) and they influence people because people already do this on their own. The chaos gods were created because people did these things. They are just the combined residue of the emotions and beliefs, both good and the bad.

The chaos gods lead their followers to them. But you have to remember that these people are originally willing converts. The Slaaneshy Daemon prince was once a mortal who loved, who wanted, Slaanesh gave him what he wanted and more. He even gave him immortality.

Is this a bad thing?

Who can say?


agreed, no cult (whether 'good' or evil) could win converts unless they start off with something that the unconverted can relate to. almost always where Khorne is described it says something along the lines that people usually join his cult through an attraction to martial pride and honour.

but as reality shows us honour cultures can lead to som of the most dishonourable things imaginable (murdering one's own children is not unheard of).


Of course, they would do dishonourable things, they are fighting wars. But they would fight honourably. A Honourable cult to khorne would never fight an uneven fight and would constantly strive to prove themselves against greater and greater enemies, which is a major aspect of Khorne.



an interesting point, but you are probably falling for the seductive lie that the Marquis fed you. why should the followers of Chaos shape the Gods? a god forms, initially at least, as a coagulate of a particular emotion in the Warp. thus the only thing that adds to that god is the same thing. if i imagine Slaanesh to be nice, it adds nothing to him. i am just misguided. if i imagine Slaanesh is nice and he uses my naivety to perform some self absorbed act of sensuality, then he gains power and i am still under the impression that he's on my side (even though the opposite is true, because he is actively deceiving me).

Actually, Slaanesh is formed of feelings of want and need. Those are the base emotion on which Slaanesh is created. Want and need contain a huge amount of other emotions. Like, love, appreciation, friendship, jealousy, addiction, denial.

These come through belief. although Slaanesh's core emotions are want and need, these other emotions have been joined to Slaanesh because Slaanesh's followers believe them to be.

You yourself thinking Slaanesh is nice doesnt mean anything. But if you and a thousand converts believe it, that is something else.



the truth is that this is fiction and so there is no fix mathmatical law that it can be reduced to. its simplest components might not logically link together, as we of a logical disposition might like them to. as such, the Chaos Gods are evil and are in a relationship with humans that causes great tension, at once they both want to see humans destroyed (anything else would be a maintainence of order and that is the opposite of chaos) and at the same time require humans to sustain them and give them power.

certainly i don't think that all followers of Chaos are by necessity mad nor do i think they can be unreasoned (they can be blind to the truth or mistaken), however the logical conclusion of Chaos is madness and then destruction (whether they reach this point in their lives is another matter).


its real, i tell you! :P

Well im a historian, so i spend days studying text. At least this way i can study something else without totally losing my focus :P

Chaos isnt Madness and destruction. It is that because we believe it to be ;) The chaos gods represent emotions, both good, bad and neutral. The big 4 are base emotions with attachments, while new base emotions can create new gods and daemons.

But this doesnt happen often, the big 4 are the main contenders.


well, the reason i believe that most Khornate soldiers become bezerk in battle is because they are usually depicted that way (as opposed to the delicate and 'skilled' fashion of Slaaneshi soldiers). however, i agree that the reason that Khorne Bezerkers are often imagined to be frothing mad slaughterers is because that is how the World Eaters are depicted. (another reason to think that Kharn is extreme, but not on a different page to the rest of the legion).

Slaaneshy soldiers? dont you mean Emperors children? the ones obsessed with Perfection?

Not all Slaaneshy soldiers fight perfectly like and Emperors Child. Some may thrill in the rush of combat like a beserker (not a Khorne beserker).

The World Eaters are beserkers, yes. But they still understand tactics and they know friend from foe.

Kharn is different.




when we compare him with other Khornate characters (Scyla Afinngrim, Arbaal Undefeated and Doombreed) we see that although he i probably more keen to slaughter his own troops than the others (because the are faulter, not because he's unhinged) they are equally as eratic in their fighting (shown by the number of Attacks they all have).


Is number of attacks a show on how beserk a character is?

Typhus can get more attacks than Kharn ;)



Kharn is not an abnormal Khornate character, although he is perhaps not the pinacle of Khornate characters. but it would be difficult to imagine such a archetype not possessing something of Kharn's prediliction for slaughtering everyone, friend or foe.


That is one aspect of Khornate belief, there could be another soldier out there who believes in fighting with honour and dignity, and keeping his soldiers alive out of feelings of brotherhood.

He fights in the name of Khorne and could be just as strong and powerful as kharne, just for different reasons, because of different belief.



well, except for the fact that dueling does not normally lead to skull taking, unless it is a lot more brutal than fencing and pistols.

Taking of the skull is part of a ritual to Khorne and any soldier of Khorne will take the skull of the foe. It is brutal, yes. But necessary.



well the heirachy i was specifcally talking about was a 'preistly' one. how does a cult of Khorne teach its members about the way of Khorne without preaching and electioneering? presumably by guiding members practically into the right situations, and showing the sort of reaction the enemy should be teated to on those that are not so willing to follow.


Actually i think a Khornate priest would teach through combat, tell his converts the emotions that they feel and what god to attach their blessings to.

Its all thats needed for the spiral to commence, whether the spiral rises up, or down, is down to the convert.

DhaosAndy
06-02-2008, 07:19
Ok, thanks for the invite, initial thoughts. All the following sticks to the cult troops as defined in the current codex and assumes points costs in line with abilities.

3 books;

Undivided, not including BL (assuming current codex can't really be changed), NL, WB, IW, AL & LATD.

WE & EC

DG & TS

Taking it legion by legion.

NL, as per CCSM except: No cult troops, no cultists, no Oblits, 4 FA(1 min), 2HS max, only daemons furies (possibly current lesser daemon profile, but LD7 & subject to moral tests). Troops must either have a rhino or infiltrate, chosen have infiltrate & scout, but can't take a heavy weapon. Special rules, may choose the result when rolling for dawn and dusk, dawn & dusk even in alpha missions.

WB, as per CCSM except: must have a Dark Apostle (Lord/Sorcerer c/w cursed crozious all WB's are fearless while he lives), no cult troops, must take a unit of cultists, must take a unit of daemons, access to all daemons, may not mix daemons of opposed gods. Not limited to 6 troops choices.

IW, as per CCSM except: must have a Warsmith (Lord/Sorcerer c/w servo arm), no cult troops, no daemons (may have a DP, but no greater, lesser or aligned daemons). Max of 1 FA choice, must take at least 1 HS choice. May take 1 looted SM or IG vehicle at 1.5 times cost (no speeders or walkers) must take 1 unit of cultists to do so. Siege specialists (as per 3.5 codex).

AL, as per CCSM except: must take at least 2 units of cultists (5 - 10 models, with infiltrate), may only take lesser daemons (not god specific) only cultist icons can summon, CSM squads may take infiltrate.

LATD, update in line with CCSM, if no CSM may take daemons freely (must have LATD HQ + 2 maximum sized cultists squads to do so).

WE, all are berzerkers as per CCSM (so WS5 + furious charge, etc) including bikers, terminators, havocs, chosen, except: fury of the World Eaters - must charge a unit if in range at the beginning of the assault phase (even if they fired a heavy weapon) & sacred number 8 all units must consist of 8 models or a multiple there of. All units have the MOK, no oblits, no cultists, no other cult troops, no raptors, any Khornate daemons may be taken, no CSM units with icons, chosen may not infiltrate or take a heavy or rapid fire weapon, they may take jump packs or juggernauts.

Right that's it for now will edit this for EC, DG & TS or add them in another post.

The Song of Spears
06-02-2008, 15:17
Right now everything is fitting into two books:

"Cult Legions" and "Traitors and Renegades".

Though i only have three legions done, the TaR book is already 70 pages long with no pictures or unit descriptions. Since most recent codexes have been around 100 pages I think they may all fit, it will just be a bit bigger than a normal codex(around 130 pages tops i think). Or they could be split up into a separate codex each and get a 30 page book each.

I am still taking all that has been posted into consideration here, great ideas guys!

Cheers!

DhaosAndy
06-02-2008, 17:08
Further thoughts:-

EC, All are noise marines, sacred number 6 all units must have 6 models or a multiple there of. All units in power/terminator armour have access to noise weapons on the same basis as the entry in CCSM, except havocs may have up to 4 blastmasters and any number of bikers may replace their TL bolters with sonic blasters (no access to blastmasters). All units have the MOS, no oblits, no other cult troops, no raptors, any Slaaneshi daemons may be taken, no CSM units with icons, chosen may not take a heavy weapon except a blastmaster, they may take daemonic speed (as per 3.5 codex) or mounts of Slaanesh, if they do so they may not infiltrate.

The Song of Spears
06-02-2008, 17:20
Further thoughts:-

EC, All are noise marines, sacred number 6 all units must have 6 models or a multiple there of. All units in power/terminator armour have access to noise weapons on the same basis as the entry in CCSM, except havocs may have up to 4 blastmasters and any number of bikers may replace their TL bolters with sonic blasters (no access to blastmasters). All units have the MOS, no oblits, no other cult troops, no raptors, any Slaaneshi daemons may be taken, no CSM units with icons, chosen may not take a heavy weapon except a blastmaster, they may take daemonic speed (as per 3.5 codex) or mounts of Slaanesh, if they do so they may not infiltrate.

Why no oblits? Why no raptors? I cant find any fluff stating that slaanesh and these two unit are mutually exclusive...

AdmiralDick
06-02-2008, 18:08
First up, here's an idea i've been toying with for a while and wonder how you guys think it would go down. SM (and less often CSM) are frequently depicted as being followed round by large groups of humans and servitors who are given various jobs, some as menial as cloak carrying, others altogether more important.

how would you guys feel about SM (and specifically in this conversation CSM) getting human retinues like Inquisitors do? they could be similar to or very different from those that DH and WH have, but would essentially fill in the same sort of role. thematically it would make Marines seem a lot more important if the most significant ones needed an entorage just to hold their helmets. but at the same time they would seem less human; in capable of looking after themselves they need constant babysitting, or high maintainence to keep their frankly mechanical frames going like the machines that they are.

the retinues could be tailored also to suit the needs and themes of the army. the IW would get a construction servitor option, the WB might be allowed more or a total opposite of a Mystic and AL's might interact somehow with their cultists (as there are cult members who suck up to the CSM, courting them for favours).

what do you guys think? any virtue in such an idea?


Word Bearers:
-Lesser Daemons get Sustained Assault, as if fighting Grey Knights

Iron Warriors:
-1 unit of Havocs may be taken as Troops

thanks for posting your ideas ReveredChaplainDrake, you've got quite a lot of ideas there (many of which chime nicely with what other people have suggested). but i just wanted to pick up on two concepts you've developed:

1) you say about the Word Bearers getting sustained assault for their lesser deamons. now at the out set this might seem to some like a bad idea, but i think you've really hit onto something. how do you represent an army that has a near limitless supply of bodies (either cultist or daemon) to throw at the enemy, without forcing them to take a massive and unweildly army, clogging up their FOC options and severely increasing the chances that their army selection will be wrong? the best possible answer is just give them a couple of recyclable units. they can keep coming back like wave after wave of attack, but require's no additional models on the table, you can't readily have a 'daemon bomb' situation and there only need be two or three units they have to get choices right on and remember what they do. all in all it sounds to me like a smart way forward.

obviously this is not a fully formed idea (will they get generic daemons or Codex: Daemons? will these count towards the FOC or not? does there need to be a stat or point change? does the way sustain assault works need to be rethought for them (it no good having half you army appear on the rear table edge when there is work to be done in the opponents deployment zone, nor allowing your opponent the luxury of shooting half the unit so they are no thread but can't respawn)?) but is certainly a good kernel of one in my mind.

2) a lot of people disliked the IW army list because it allowed players to field 4 HS choices, with minimal reprocusions (sure they couldn't take 3 units of bikes, but when were they ever going to?). and your post got me to thinking, how could we offer the IW that extra HS choice, that i think most of us feel they deserve, but make it a real decision for them to take? as you suggest we could move it elsewhere in the FOC, or, as others have said, we could increase the cost of the final unit, or we could force it to be a particular unit (perhaps a Basilisk or a Havoc squad) or we could force them to take another unit in addition (one cultist unit for one Basilisk).

personally i think your idea might well be the best though. okay, so it didn't hurt to loose 2 FA choices according to almost everyone who went against such a list. but could we hit them where it really hurts, not a Troop choice, because its not hard to drop from 6 to 5 Troops, but a Elites choice. sure you can have a Basilisk but it will be at a loss of one of your Terminatior/Dreadnaughts. would that seem like a more reasonable choice. its a perfectly viable option to take an extra tank and fewer Termies, but its not a given.


The chaos gods are beings of emotion, both good and bad, which means that they represent both the good and the bad of an emotion.

No, seperating people into good guys and bad guys isnt a true way of depicting them.

well, i'm afraid i disagree with you here. they do not represent both good and evil. they are not good. they are not even neutral. Slaanesh is not a god of love.

the 40k universe is fictional and is a world of absolute morals (whether one believes there are such things in the real world or not). there are such things as bad guys, if not not good guys, and not everything is relative in the game universe.


You yourself thinking Slaanesh is nice doesnt mean anything. But if you and a thousand converts believe it, that is something else.

well, i wasn't really arguing about the relative value of one worshiper in comparison to many. i was saying that Slaanesh is not a god of decay or any other concept, no matter how many people think he is. that is another god, if there is such a thing. its like Chaos gods have resonant frequencies with emotions. like tuning into a radio station, what adds to Slaanesh is only sickly pleasure, however he tricks me into tuning into it.


Chaos isnt Madness and destruction. It is that because we believe it to be ;)

no, it is madness and discruction, because as i said previously chaos is the very opposite of order. inspite of all the brief pattern-like structure that might appear (such as the gods, daemons and so on), chaos and the warp is ultimately nihilistic. madness and destruction are the ultimate expression of choas in both mind and body/physics.

to suggest anything else is counter intuative. the gods do want to harm you, the other gods and even themselves (although they are to blind to notice it). they rale against reality and cannot be sated.

Is number of attacks a show on how beserk a character is?

no. but the erratic nature of the attacks speaks volumes about the direction that Khorne drives people in.

it seems that we're probably reaching a stale mate with this discussion as we are covering the same ground. however, i think that in itself i an important factor in the overall discussion. there is obviously plenty of background to work with and discuss for Khorne (and probably all the other gods), but is there enough on the undivided legions. my feeling is probably not.


Ok, thanks for the invite

tis cool. as they would have said in the middle ages.

had they used the term 'cool'.

seriously though, i want to hear from as many people as possible on this one. i want everyone to have their say and for no one to be able to make generic statements about 'what Chaos players want', without being able to back it up.

i also think that for all the discord over the most recent codex we still have a lot of common ground that could do with being rediscovered.


AL, as per CCSM except: must take at least 2 units of cultists (5 - 10 models, with infiltrate), may only take lesser daemons (not god specific) only cultist icons can summon, CSM squads may take infiltrate.

there is a lot of talk about how AL (and maybe some other legions) should include cultist. but this just leads me to ask, why?

what do cultist bring to the table, so to speak, that isn't there already and is of some value. as a potentially slower, less tactically flexible unit that might well cost more than a unit of basic CSM, not very much is the only answer i can think of. its even less if they are simply part of the standard army; an alternative to CSM units. if they are set up 'side-by-side' with the basic AL marines their only real value is a meat sheild for those guys who don't have infiltrate.

your point (which is from the codex but no one else has mentioned it to my knowledge) which allows daemons to only summon through them certainly adds extra weight and meaning to them. they are not longer 'just a meatshield' if i need at least some of them to survive long enough to deploy daemons.

my idea, which i think would compliment this perfectly, is to change them from being an alternative troops choice into being the main troops choice. imagine if there were practically no Marines in the AL list. just HQs and Elites say. the rest were cultists. now mix in the 5th ed Infiltrate rules, that allow units to pounce from behind, on those Marine units. the cultists start on the board making a lot of fuss and noise and generally being killed easily. this lulls the opponent into thinking this is going to be easy and committing himself too early. then from behind the super hard AL chosen and Lord appear (and they are much, much harder than your average guys), suddenly the cultist who were more of a doddle to kill than unarmed IG summon daemons, and the enemy are trapped between a rock and a hard place.

i think that that sort of mechanic, whilst being powerful, is certainly not fool proof, nor a garenteed win, but make the list sound interesting and different enough to be worth writing and playing.


I am still taking all that has been posted into consideration here, great ideas guys!

thanks very much. i'm glad to see the creativity flowing so freely on this forum.

Ddraiglais
06-02-2008, 18:46
I love your idea with the AL striking from behind with their elites and HQ. The only thing I would change is to maybe give them 0-2 CSM as troop choices. This is still a CSM army we are talking about no matter how much use they make of cultists.

Warsmith Strader
06-02-2008, 18:53
Alpha legion- legion rules-
Infiltrate, Move through Cover limited access to daemons.
Can only take the icon of chaos glory!

Iron Warriors-
0-1 unit of khorne Berserkers,
sacrifice a fast attack choice to have fourth heavy choice.

night lords- Raptors as a troop choice

Word Bearers-
Accursed Crozius- WB only( adds a +1 to the daemon aura save to a(4+), counts as a undivided daemon weapon.(needs to be worded better so people don't think is a 1+ inv save.
-adds possessed to the troop choices also(just like the current codex fluff supports!)

Can only take the icon of chaos glory in squads.

Black Legion- current chaos codex!

AdmiralDick
06-02-2008, 19:29
I love your idea with the AL striking from behind with their elites and HQ. The only thing I would change is to maybe give them 0-2 CSM as troop choices. This is still a CSM army we are talking about no matter how much use they make of cultists.

well, i really only suggested no CSM outside of HQ and Elites just to get the sort of idea fixed in peoples heads. obviously i wouldn't want to force people to take Cultist when they really didn't want to, but in my idea they should be the default option. if you want to take a purely CSM army it should certainly be do-able, but the troops choices should fulfil the same basic role as the Cultists (that is to be the anvil that the Chosen hammer against), so they should not have infiltrate and i guess be able to summon daemons (although there there's no strong compulsion to allow them to do even that). but i would also imply the weaker, more disperate feel of the AL (and giving the player good reason to choose cultists instead) by saying no more than 10 a unit, and perhaps not giving them the full options of a regular CSM squad.

i'd also probably make some of the FA and HS choices dependent on the cultists. just off the top of my head maybe you could take Leman Russes as HS, but only if you took cultists.

so, no, i have no problem with including CSM as troops, but they should be weaker than average and should not be the default choice for AL players, unless they are picking them for thematic reasons.

Ddraiglais
06-02-2008, 19:49
I know I threw that idea out there. It might have been on this thread or another, but I would support AL getting traitor tanks. They should be restricted in CSM tanks because it would be difficult to keep tanks/defilers hidden while they were infiltrating the masses. Traitor tanks could represent part of a PDF rebelling or a tank stolen from the armory. Still, I don't see the AL using that much armor. IMO their HS should be in man-portable heavy weapons.

DhaosAndy
06-02-2008, 19:51
The Song of Spears: "Why no oblits? Why no raptors? I cant find any Fluff stating that slaanesh and these two unit are mutually exclusive..."

Neither is there any background reason why a member of the EC could become a member of either sub cult. Also the oblits would violate the rule of 6 and the raptors would give the potential for way too much fast attack, since mounted/speed chosen fulfill their role.

northoceanbeach
06-02-2008, 20:36
I was happy with them the way they were. So I'm going to go with throw out the new codex and reinstate the old.

Kelderaith
06-02-2008, 21:24
As for Iron Warriors, I don't think adding a 4th heavy support will really happens, nor would it be the perfect solution imho. Yes they are depicted as using more siege weapon and being more of a static gunline than most other legions and chapters, but the 4th HS allows for too many sort of abuses (as we've seen in the past, 60% of the chaos list I saw were IW with 4 HS). I am actually surprised that not anyone pointed out my idea (some might just have skipped my post for it's unbearable length though haha) but I'll shoot it out again. My idea was to make HS Iron Warriors choices be less costy (cost reduction depending on the unit of course) thus enabling them to use their point elsewhere and to actually "max out" their 3 HS for less point than other legions, illustrating their easy access to heavy weaponry and their extensive usage of such weaponry.

Another option could be to limit their troop on special weapon, but giving them a 2nd heavy weapon when they are 10 and over (a bit like new restriction about min maxing). The 2nd weapon should cost a few more pts though as it could easily be abused.

I think the idea of 0-1 Khorne Berserker is great, but what I liked the most was the idea of... someone (sorry I didn't want to reread all entries) who said IW should get an ability that once per game, all the army gain fleet/furious charge (but then if you give them that, remove the berserker all togethers, as they would really be viable without them).

On that note, I'll leave you guys to other musing about the legions' codexes, there have been some great ideas so far and I wish it continues in the same direction ;)

Minos Engele
06-02-2008, 21:49
Frankly, even as a Chaos player, i'd rather have two new codexes. One for the five Undivided Chapters and one for the four Cult Legions, with the following loadout:
Undivided:

All:
Basicly the same as the current (new) Chaos codex minus the Cult Troops. Bloodletters, Horrors, Flamers, Deamonettes, Plaguebearers, Bloodthristers, Great Unclean Ones, Keepers of Secrets and Lords of Change are available instead of Generic Lesser and Greater Deamons.

Furies, Screamers, Fleshhounds, Steeds of Slaanesh are included as Fast Attack choices.

Iron Warriors
Can add a Servo arm/harness to their Chaos Lord (Warsmith), cannot use Deamons and may use two Heavy Weapons in CSM squads. (The "standard" special weapon may be swapped with an Heavy weapon)

Night Lords
Chosen may be equipped with Jumppacks for 8 points but must deploy 18 inch away from any enemy unit (no first turn assaults). Only Furies are available as deamons. Only the Icon of Chaos Glory is available.

Alpha Legion
Only Icon of Chaos Glory is available. Rolls for Reserve get +1. (never understood the whole infiltrate thing, wouldnt beter use of deamons, raptors and terminators be more accurate from a background point of view?)

Word Bearers
One HQ choice must be upgraded tot Dark Apostle. No more than one Dark Apostle may be included in the army. The Dark Apostle swaps his weapons with an Accursed Crozius. The Accursed Crozius is a Deamon Weapon that adds +1 to the Invulnerable save and counts as an Icon. Chaos lords pay 50 points, Deamon Princes 60 points and Sorcerors 70 points. Note that in the hands of a Chaos Sorceror the Accursed Crozius also counts as a Forceweapon.
A Dark Apostle may not purchase a chaos mark. The Accursed Crozius will thus add +1 Strenght.
The opponent will recieve 100 extra Victory Points when he succeeds in killing the Dark Apostle.

Black Legion
No further changes.

Cult:

All:
Bloodletters, Horrors, Flamers, Deamonettes, Plaguebearers, Bloodthristers, Great Unclean Ones, Keepers of Secrets and Lords of Change are available instead of Generic Lesser and Greater Deamons.

Furies, Screamers, Fleshhounds, Steeds of Slaanesh are included as Fast Attack choices.

Chaos Terminators, Chaos Chosen, Chaos Possessed, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Bikers, Chaos Raptors, Obliterators and Chaos Havocs are removed.

World Eaters:
Gain Berzerker Terminators, Berzerker Chosen, Berzerker Possessed, Berzerker Bikers and Berzerker Havocs. All are basicly the same as their regular versions but all gain the Mark of Khorne, Fearlesness, Furious Charge and one extra point of WS. Berzerker Chosen may not infiltrate but may fleet of foot with 2 dice and pick the highest. May not purchase Heavy Weapons
Berzerker Havocs are all equipped with CC weapons and pistols. Up to 4 models may buy special weapons (they do not swap their cc weapon and pistol), power weapons or powerfists.
World Eater armies may not include Chaos Sorcerors.
Chaos Lords and Deamon Princes automaticly have the Mark of Khorne
Both gain Furious Charge, 1 extra point of WS and must purchase the Bloodfeeder (Deamon Prince must use one too)
All squads with models equal to 8 or 16 may upgrade one model to an Skullchampion for free (only one Skullchampion per squad)
Only Deamons usable are Bloodthirsters, Bloodletters and Fleshhounds.
Chaos Spawn gain 1 point of Strenght
For now I won't bother with points costs.

Death Guard:
Gain Plague Terminators, Plague Chosen, Plague Possessed and Plague Havocs.
All are basicly the same as their regular versions but all gain the Mark of Nurgle, Fearlesness, Feel no Pain, Blight Grenades and lose 1 point of Initiative
Plague Chosen and Plague Havocs may not use Heavy Weapons.
Chaos Lords, Chaos Sorcerors and Deamon Princes automaticly have the Mark of Nurgle, Feel no Pain, Blight grenades and lose 1 point of Initiative. All are also armed with the Plague Bringer (Sorcerors and Deamon Princes also, Sorcerors may additionaly use it as an Force Weapon.
Sorcerors and Deamon Princes may only choose Nurgles Rot as an Psychic Power.
Squads with models equal to 7 or 14 may include one Plague Champion for free (only one Plague Champion per squad)
Only usable Deamons are Great Unclean one and Plaguebearers.
Chaos Spawn gain one point of toughness
For now I won't bother with points costs.

Emperors Children:
Gain Noise Terminators, Noise Chosen, Noise Possessed, Noise Bikers and Noise Havocs.
All are basicly the same as their regular versions but all gain the Mark of Slaanesh, Fearlesness and gain 1 point of Initiative. Noise Terminators may upgrade their Combi bolters to Sonic Blasters for 3 points. Noise Chosen may upgrade their bolters to Sonic Blasters for 5 points. May also add Blastmaster and Doom Siren to their weapon choices. Dreadnoughts may upgrade one arm to an Blastmaster for 40 points. Noise Bikers may upgrade the Combi Bolter to Sonic Blaster for 3 points. Noise Havocs may replace any bolters with Sonic Blasters and may add Blastmasters and Doom Sirens to their weapon choises.
Predators may swap any purchased Lascannons with Blastmasters for no extra points.
Chaos Lords, Chaos Sorcerors and Deamon Princes automaticly have the Mark of Slaanesh and gain 1 point of Initiative. All are also armed with the Blissgiver (Sorcerors and Deamon Princes also)
Sorcerors and Deamon Princes may only choose Lash of Submission as an Psychic Power.
Squads with models equal to 6, 12 or 18 may include one Noise Champion for free (only one Plague Champion per squad)
Only usable Deamons are Keeper of Secrets, Deamonettes and Steeds of Slaanesh
When Chaos Spawn roll for their Slow and Purposefull test they doulbe the result. (2 dice, 3 and 5, pick highest, 5, double result, 10)
For now I won't bother with points costs.

Not really shure how to handle Thousand Sons.

DantesInferno
06-02-2008, 22:24
Ok, thanks for the invite, initial thoughts. All the following sticks to the cult troops as defined in the current codex and assumes points costs in line with abilities.

The problematic trend with all of your suggested Legion army lists is that they reduce all armies from any given Legion to a horrible stereotype, not allowing any flexibility whatsoever.

In a similar way to the 3.5 codex, only more excessive.

For example:


NL, as per CCSM except: No cult troops, no cultists, no Oblits, 4 FA(1 min), 2HS max, only daemons furies (possibly current lesser daemon profile, but LD7 & subject to moral tests). Troops must either have a rhino or infiltrate, chosen have infiltrate & scout, but can't take a heavy weapon. Special rules, may choose the result when rolling for dawn and dusk, dawn & dusk even in alpha missions.

Why do all Night Lord forces become sneaky specialists? What's wrong with a Night Lord commander who needs to deploy an armoured column? Why can't a Night Lord commander get Obliterator mercenaries for his force? Why only furies?


WB, as per CCSM except: must have a Dark Apostle (Lord/Sorcerer c/w cursed crozious all WB's are fearless while he lives), no cult troops, must take a unit of cultists, must take a unit of daemons, access to all daemons, may not mix daemons of opposed gods. Not limited to 6 troops choices.

Word Bearers must take cultists and must take daemons? What about an elite Word Bearer sect which operates swiftly from drop-pod and terminator shock assault? They don't wait hanging around on the ground for cultists to show up, or for the necessary rituals to be performed.


IW, as per CCSM except: must have a Warsmith (Lord/Sorcerer c/w servo arm), no cult troops, no daemons (may have a DP, but no greater, lesser or aligned daemons). Max of 1 FA choice, must take at least 1 HS choice. May take 1 looted SM or IG vehicle at 1.5 times cost (no speeders or walkers) must take 1 unit of cultists to do so. Siege specialists (as per 3.5 codex).

No daemons? Why shouldn't an Iron Warrior force be allowed to take daemons if their Warsmith likes using them as expendible shock troops? Why do they have to take Heavy Support? What about a Iron Warriors shock assault force (to take the walls once the artillery has breached them)?


AL, as per CCSM except: must take at least 2 units of cultists (5 - 10 models, with infiltrate), may only take lesser daemons (not god specific) only cultist icons can summon, CSM squads may take infiltrate.

Must take cultists? What about a pure Marine Alpha Legion army who likes to prove its martial skill by hunting down and engaging Loyalist Astartes forces in ambushes?


WE, all are berzerkers as per CCSM (so WS5 + furious charge, etc) including bikers, terminators, havocs, chosen, except: fury of the World Eaters - must charge a unit if in range at the beginning of the assault phase (even if they fired a heavy weapon) & sacred number 8 all units must consist of 8 models or a multiple there of. All units have the MOK, no oblits, no cultists, no other cult troops, no raptors, any Khornate daemons may be taken, no CSM units with icons, chosen may not infiltrate or take a heavy or rapid fire weapon, they may take jump packs or juggernauts.

What does a World Eaters army do if one of their squads numbers eight at the start of the campaign, but one of their guys gets killed in the opening engagement?

Do the other 7 stand around saying "Damn, I wish there were eight of us so we could go out there and take skulls for Khorne"?

Why can't World Eater Chosen take heavy weapons?

Mor Gothic
06-02-2008, 23:01
World Eaters:
Gain Berzerker Terminators, Berzerker Chosen, Berzerker Possessed, Berzerker Bikers and Berzerker Havocs. All are basicly the same as their regular versions but all gain the Mark of Khorne, Fearlesness, Furious Charge and one extra point of WS. Berzerker Chosen may not infiltrate but may fleet of foot with 2 dice and pick the highest. May not purchase Heavy Weapons
Berzerker Havocs are all equipped with CC weapons and pistols. Up to 4 models may buy special weapons (they do not swap their cc weapon and pistol), power weapons or powerfists.
World Eater armies may not include Chaos Sorcerors.
Chaos Lords and Deamon Princes automaticly have the Mark of Khorne
Both gain Furious Charge, 1 extra point of WS and must purchase the Bloodfeeder (Deamon Prince must use one too)
All squads with models equal to 8 or 16 may upgrade one model to an Skullchampion for free (only one Skullchampion per squad)
Only Deamons usable are Bloodthirsters, Bloodletters and Fleshhounds.
Chaos Spawn gain 1 point of Strenght
For now I won't bother with points costs.

Death Guard:
Gain Plague Terminators, Plague Chosen, Plague Possessed and Plague Havocs.
All are basicly the same as their regular versions but all gain the Mark of Nurgle, Fearlesness, Feel no Pain, Blight Grenades and lose 1 point of Initiative
Plague Chosen and Plague Havocs may not use Heavy Weapons.
Chaos Lords, Chaos Sorcerors and Deamon Princes automaticly have the Mark of Nurgle, Feel no Pain, Blight grenades and lose 1 point of Initiative. All are also armed with the Plague Bringer (Sorcerors and Deamon Princes also, Sorcerors may additionaly use it as an Force Weapon.
Sorcerors and Deamon Princes may only choose Nurgles Rot as an Psychic Power.
Squads with models equal to 7 or 14 may include one Plague Champion for free (only one Plague Champion per squad)
Only usable Deamons are Great Unclean one and Plaguebearers.
Chaos Spawn gain one point of toughness
For now I won't bother with points costs.

Emperors Children:
Gain Noise Terminators, Noise Chosen, Noise Possessed, Noise Bikers and Noise Havocs.
All are basicly the same as their regular versions but all gain the Mark of Slaanesh, Fearlesness and gain 1 point of Initiative. Noise Terminators may upgrade their Combi bolters to Sonic Blasters for 3 points. Noise Chosen may upgrade their bolters to Sonic Blasters for 5 points. May also add Blastmaster and Doom Siren to their weapon choices. Dreadnoughts may upgrade one arm to an Blastmaster for 40 points. Noise Bikers may upgrade the Combi Bolter to Sonic Blaster for 3 points. Noise Havocs may replace any bolters with Sonic Blasters and may add Blastmasters and Doom Sirens to their weapon choises.
Predators may swap any purchased Lascannons with Blastmasters for no extra points.
Chaos Lords, Chaos Sorcerors and Deamon Princes automaticly have the Mark of Slaanesh and gain 1 point of Initiative. All are also armed with the Blissgiver (Sorcerors and Deamon Princes also)
Sorcerors and Deamon Princes may only choose Lash of Submission as an Psychic Power.
Squads with models equal to 6, 12 or 18 may include one Noise Champion for free (only one Plague Champion per squad)
Only usable Deamons are Keeper of Secrets, Deamonettes and Steeds of Slaanesh
When Chaos Spawn roll for their Slow and Purposefull test they doulbe the result. (2 dice, 3 and 5, pick highest, 5, double result, 10)
For now I won't bother with points costs.

Not really shure how to handle Thousand Sons.

I like alot of your ideas, but there are a few that I feel need to be changed.

1. I don't understand why a lord should HAVE to have a Daemon Weapon, what if I dont want one?

2. Daemon Prince with Daemon Weapons...just no. A Khorne Daemon Prince would have 7 - 18 attacks on the charge! Slannesh would have 6 - 9 attack that kill outright etc. Its just to much IMHO.

3. Sorcerer's with Daemon Force Weapons? Why would I need to take a Lord ever?

4. Nurgle only get Rot? While Slannesh gets LoS! Yeah thats real fair :eyebrows:, Why no other Psychic powers? I sure a Sorcerer's doesnt think "Oh I'm Nurgle now, I better only use Nurgles Rot from now on...".

Just so I'm not just posting things I don't like, here what I would change it to.

1. Lord weapon option's are the same as in the current codex.

2. Daemon Prince Marks:

Khorne:- +2 Attacks on the charge (insterad of the usual +1)
Nurgle:- +2 Toughness -1 Initiative.
Slannesh:- I'm not sure....+2Initiative seems pointless...any ideas:confused:

3. Sorcerer's are fine as they are...but maybe you get to choose to take either NR/LoS for free or to pay for another power.

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-02-2008, 23:42
Dante brings up a good point. I think the idea should be not to necessarily restrict the Legions that much, but give them options that the others don't have, at an obvious cost of points and force org slots. Remember, the Legions were armies in and of themselves, able to accomplish many tasks. I think they should operate in a way that allows them to defeat threats in a practical manner. Not like WE chasing tanks around waving their chainaxes.

Ddraiglais
06-02-2008, 23:56
Some of the restrictions are fluffy. An IW would never use daemons (outside of possesed and DPs). That's not entirely correct. The IW do bind daemons to weapons and such. It's just easier rules-wise to just say IW can't use daemons.

I wouldn't say WB (or any other legion) MUST take something. However, WB should not be allowed any troops dedicated to one god.

I'm not as up to speed on NL fluff to explain why they can't have other daemons. Their tactics are largely based on speed. That's why HS options are limited.

A lot of the restrictions people are coming up with are fluffy. Some of the restrictions are also so we don't have to listen to all the whining and crying all over again. We'd rather have fluffy lists that are a bit restrictive than have overpowered lists (whether perceived or actual) that would get the rest of the 40K community's panties in a bunch.

DantesInferno
07-02-2008, 00:14
Some of the restrictions are fluffy. An IW would never use daemons (outside of possesed and DPs). That's not entirely correct. The IW do bind daemons to weapons and such. It's just easier rules-wise to just say IW can't use daemons.

I wouldn't say WB (or any other legion) MUST take something. However, WB should not be allowed any troops dedicated to one god.

I'm not as up to speed on NL fluff to explain why they can't have other daemons. Their tactics are largely based on speed. That's why HS options are limited.

A lot of the restrictions people are coming up with are fluffy. Some of the restrictions are also so we don't have to listen to all the whining and crying all over again. We'd rather have fluffy lists that are a bit restrictive than have overpowered lists (whether perceived or actual) that would get the rest of the 40K community's panties in a bunch.

Surely this is the best illustration for not having sub-codices at all, and just having a base codex broad enough to accomodate particular legions within it? Much like, say, the recent Eldar or Ork codices. Particular Craftworld lists don't exist anymore, but the basic list is flexible enough to accomodate the particular ideosyncracies of the particular craftworlds.

The problem with introducing a bunch of extra lists where they're not necessary is that it creates the sort of narrow-minded views of the organisations which late 3rd ed saw.

Stuff like a Ulthwe army must have Guardians and Seers. Iyanden must have lots of Wraith-constructs. Iron Warriors can't have daemons. Alpha Legion must be infiltrators.

These sorts of ideas end up becoming widespread because of the for-convenience rules the codices introduce, rather than any particular foundation in the background.

Ddraiglais
07-02-2008, 00:35
Surely this is the best illustration for not having sub-codices at all, and just having a base codex broad enough to accomodate particular legions within it? Much like, say, the recent Eldar or Ork codices. Particular Craftworld lists don't exist anymore, but the basic list is flexible enough to accomodate the particular ideosyncracies of the particular craftworlds.

Then give us a codex that is broad enough to have legions. You can't do it. JJ has even said so himself. That's why they are considering a legion codex or maybe several codices. Eldar should get more lists. Orks should too. I'd even say the IG should have various lists. I don't care if they come from GW or FW. I don't care if they are full codices, WD articles, PDF lists, or a redo of those codices with some sort of traits. The bottom line is that 40K is boring with generic army lists.


The problem with introducing a bunch of extra lists where they're not necessary is that it creates the sort of narrow-minded views of the organisations which late 3rd ed saw.

Some armies have a specific way of fighting. If you don't like it, play a different army.


Stuff like a Ulthwe army must have Guardians and Seers. Iyanden must have lots of Wraith-constructs. Iron Warriors can't have daemons. Alpha Legion must be infiltrators.

Ulthwe is noted for guardians and seers. Iyanden was wiped out. They don't have enough of a population to field that many guardians. IW don't use daemons in that way. As an IW player, one of the things I like the most about them is how they aren't really a Chaos force either. They don't use daemons. They refused troops for the 12th Black Crusade. They cut out mutations and replace them with bionics. All of that is fluffy. Allowing IW to field daemons makes them just another CSM army. Might as well be playing Violators.


These sorts of ideas end up becoming widespread because of the for-convenience rules the codices introduce, rather than any particular foundation in the background.

IW don't have a background that is paranoid (thus explaining why they don't even trust Chaos). They don't have a background in using big guns? Iyanden wasn't almost wiped out by the Tyranids? In most cases, the rules do support the fluff.

DantesInferno
07-02-2008, 03:03
Then give us a codex that is broad enough to have legions. You can't do it. JJ has even said so himself. That's why they are considering a legion codex or maybe several codices. Eldar should get more lists. Orks should too. I'd even say the IG should have various lists. I don't care if they come from GW or FW. I don't care if they are full codices, WD articles, PDF lists, or a redo of those codices with some sort of traits. The bottom line is that 40K is boring with generic army lists.

There's no point in having more army lists just for the sake of having more army lists, especially if it promotes unnecessarily narrow-minded or elitist views about what an army needs to be to be a Biel-Tan army or a Word Bearers army.

If a new army list really adds something important to a faction which couldn't be done by other means, then sure. Sub-codices for Chaos Legions, particularly the "undivided" Legions, don't add enough to justify their existence.


Ulthwe is noted for guardians and seers. Iyanden was wiped out. They don't have enough of a population to field that many guardians. IW don't use daemons in that way. As an IW player, one of the things I like the most about them is how they aren't really a Chaos force either. They don't use daemons. They refused troops for the 12th Black Crusade. They cut out mutations and replace them with bionics. All of that is fluffy. Allowing IW to field daemons makes them just another CSM army. Might as well be playing Violators.

I have an Iron Warriors army too, and I'm happy that I am finally allowed rules-wise to use daemons. Remember that out of the last 15 years or so, Iron Warriors have only been banned from using daemons for 5. Blanket statements like "Iron Warriors don't use daemons" are the sort of unhelpful stereotyping that the 3.5 codex really propagated, and without any real basis in the background or in common sense.



IW don't have a background that is paranoid (thus explaining why they don't even trust Chaos). They don't have a background in using big guns? Iyanden wasn't almost wiped out by the Tyranids? In most cases, the rules do support the fluff.

Iron Warriors have a tendency to use big guns. Iyanden have a tendency to use proportionally more Wraithguard than other Craftworlds.

Does that mean every Iyanden task-force out there includes Wraithguard? No.

Does it mean an Iron Warriors army with assault troops and cannon-fodder daemons isn't a real Iron Warriors army? No.

Traitor Legions and Craftworlds are huge organisations. While their forces may have broad similarities in composition or philosophical outlook, there's still plenty of room for variation.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-02-2008, 03:47
Like I said, I agree with Dante. He's got some good points there.

The Song of Spears
07-02-2008, 16:02
Ok, so IW, WB and NL are done.

Next up is AL, who will be getting the 'reserves from any table edge' to some degree... amongst other things.

I think you guys will be surprised at how cool all this is turning out. :D

keep up the suggestions everyone, you never know where this will lead ;)

biccat
07-02-2008, 17:10
Iron Warriors have a tendency to use big guns. Iyanden have a tendency to use proportionally more Wraithguard than other Craftworlds.

Does that mean every Iyanden task-force out there includes Wraithguard? No.

Does it mean an Iron Warriors army with assault troops and cannon-fodder daemons isn't a real Iron Warriors army? No.

Traitor Legions and Craftworlds are huge organisations. While their forces may have broad similarities in composition or philosophical outlook, there's still plenty of room for variation.
Does that mean that an all mounted army with bikes, infiltrating chosen, and troops in Rhinos would fit the "Iron Warriors" template?

Sure doesn't to me. Legions are huge, but armies need to be iconic instead of generic. Iron Warriors are the siege specialists of Chaos, so they should represent that in their army list.

Similarly, I think that an Alpha Legion list with dreads, oblits, and heavy weapon troops would be inappropriate considering their fluff.

Iconic good. Generic bad.

The Song of Spears
07-02-2008, 17:22
Does that mean that an all mounted army with bikes, infiltrating chosen, and troops in Rhinos would fit the "Iron Warriors" template?

Sure doesn't to me. Legions are huge, but armies need to be iconic instead of generic. Iron Warriors are the siege specialists of Chaos, so they should represent that in their army list.

Similarly, I think that an Alpha Legion list with dreads, oblits, and heavy weapon troops would be inappropriate considering their fluff.

Iconic good. Generic bad.

The idea behind making separate entry's or rules for legions/cults is not to force players into ONLY that exact formation.

If you want to play a pure IW army, then you will use the IW army book which does indeed saddle you with mostly things that are good for mounting sieges. However, if you want to use the current chaos codex to make a generic IW warband that has alternate or odd orders and thus a odd makeup, then that is fine too.

The rules that are being developed will allow for 'pure' armys to be played. If you want a mix of elements in your Legion, then the current dex should work just fine for you.

Meathook
07-02-2008, 17:51
I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread as I am at work and can only sneak in so much time. Also I am only going to comment on the World Eaters as that is th only legion that I have a half decent knowledge base on.

While I don't see a problem with the World Eaters having Havocs and preadators or even Oblits. Heck I don't even see a problem with having the basic berserker squads with a heavy weapon in it. I would like to see them done similar to perhaps the heavy bolter of the Deathwatch kill team. Shorten its range to 18 inches, and give it assault 3. It would be expalined by the berserker's higher strength on the charge with them simply berserkering it into a short range assault weapon.

Regarding the havocs, I would also like something interesting done with them, perhaps allowing them when striking in combat on the first turn to give them +2 strength as they use their huge weapons as clubs. Its not something to be use a whole lot, but I feel it does make it interesting and represents the unique style of the legion. Them being a more assault oriented army (but not only that as they would still have proper support). It more or less shows that every marine was trained for assault and as they move up, they still have some of that training.

Regarding vehicles, I would like to see the option to mark vehicles and offer a unique set of upgrades. Maybe even allowing the vehicles to have an almost demonic machine spirit but one more oriented towards the god it is favored by.

In respects to the summoning of deamons, I don't think they should be limited to a 0-1 option for the lessers. I would like to go with the route of the black templar codex. For each basic marine you have, you can also purcahse a deamon for that unit you can summon. For example if you have two squads of 10 berserkers, you could have up to two squads of 10 bloodletters. You may have less if you wanted.

Regarding the Greater Deamon, I think you should be able to have one for each HQ unit you take, for example if you had Kharn and say a chaos lord with the mark of Khorne or a deamon price with a mark of khorne, you would be able ot take two greater deamons.

I also feel the dreadnought could use some love. Perhaps a chaos version of the Death Company Dreadnought. Give it the kharn rule, where if anyone is near him, on a miss he hits allies. But also give him an additional "blood" move of an exta D6 inches to get into assault.

These are just random musings and I'm not great at coming up with rules or even game balance, but I don't really want to see any huge powerful game altering rules, just simple small things that either added a bit of "oh thats kinda nifty" once in a while or something that would make a player on the other side of the tame go "thats a really cool."

Maybe a Deamon price hero, a vehicle hero (dreadnough or defiler) and two standard heros (Kharn + someone else)

Well I've gone on long enough.

AdmiralDick
07-02-2008, 17:52
As for Iron Warriors, I don't think adding a 4th heavy support will really happens, nor would it be the perfect solution imho. [...] My idea was to make HS Iron Warriors choices be less costy (cost reduction depending on the unit of course) thus enabling them to use their point elsewhere and to actually "max out" their 3 HS for less point than other legions, illustrating their easy access to heavy weaponry and their extensive usage of such weaponry.

whilst can see you certainly have a point, i'd give you bonus points for lateral thinking, i'm afraid that i can't see as being any more satisfactory than allowing a 4th HS choice. cheifly, because it doesn't actually increase the sum total of HS in a given army. an IW army will still only be able to take 3 tanks. secondly, it is a huge benefit to the army at next to no cost. they can take 2 or 1 HS choices and spend the saved points on extra elites, which pretty much goes against what you are trying to achieve.

and yes, sorry, i totally missed that suggestion, otherwise i would have picked up on it earlier.


the 4th HS allows for too many sort of abuses (as we've seen in the past, 60% of the chaos list I saw were IW with 4 HS).

but of those 60% how many were actually abusive?

i'm not saying there weren't any abusive lists, but i seriously think people are letting their memories be jaded by a couple of experiences (and for some no experiences at all, just what they've heard on the forum). its important to learn from past mistakes, but its also important not to get hung up on the past and assume that bad experiences can't go towards making good ones in the future.


Another option could be to limit their troop on special weapon, but giving them a 2nd heavy weapon when they are 10 and over (a bit like new restriction about min maxing). The 2nd weapon should cost a few more pts though as it could easily be abused.

i actually quite like this idea, its kind of like the reverse of the situation the Death Guard had in the previous codex.


I think the idea of 0-1 Khorne Berserker is great, but what I liked the most was the idea of... someone (sorry I didn't want to reread all entries) who said IW should get an ability that once per game, all the army gain fleet/furious charge (but then if you give them that, remove the berserker all togethers, as they would really be viable without them).

yipee! someone likes one of my ideas for a change.

the premis of my Waaargh-alike idea is indeed dependent on the fact that the IW would have no dedicated assualt troops (so no raptors with CCWs and no Khorne Bezerkers as we know them). however, i personally think that 'Khorne Bezerkers' need not mean the same thing in each legion. obviously there should be some connection between the units, but i don't think that they have to be the same thing transplanted into each list. why shouldn't IW 'Khorne Bezerkers' be khornate troops that are all armed with missile launchers and are very trigger happy (they just love seeing people blown to smitherines)?


On that note, I'll leave you guys to other musing about the legions' codexes, there have been some great ideas so far and I wish it continues in the same direction ;)

why? where are you of to? you can still chip in when you want (or need).


The problematic trend with all of your suggested Legion army lists is that they reduce all armies from any given Legion to a horrible stereotype, not allowing any flexibility whatsoever.

well, that is certainly one assessment of the situation. i personally am not all in favour of Ddraiglais' (and various other posters') ideas, because far from doing too much, to my mind they do not do enough to the lists to warrent their creation. they simply fiddle around with what already exists, in something of a 2D fashion, rather than creating a new army from the same basic building blocks.

ultimately, i think we boil down to the same point, that if a list is going to be created it need to be worth creating. however i think that you are perhaps a little more on the 'bah humbug' end of the spectrum to me. i think that you have a important message that whoever might one day create such lists needs to hear to keep on track, but i also think that some of your fears are unfounded.


Why do all Night Lord forces become sneaky specialists? What's wrong with a Night Lord commander who needs to deploy an armoured column? Why can't a Night Lord commander get Obliterator mercenaries for his force? Why only furies?

again, i don't necessarily agree with Ddraiglais' interpretation, but i think your questions presuppose a mind set that is unhelpful to games developement and game playing. why is it unhelpful for games playing? let me ask you ask your question again with a different emphasis.

why should a player not be allowed to choose to play the army of his choice in an uncharacteristic fashion? the simple answer is, they shouldn't. but then they are not entitled to expect their army list to cover everything they can imagine, rather than everything that the army is 'supposed' to be.

one of the major benefits of having a larger number of codex depicting various styles within the same race, is that as a player you can choose which codex you use. even if you paint you models to imply that your chosen army is acting 'out of character' with their general theme. if you don't want your NL to play as 'Night Lords' that totally cool, but using a different codex might make more sense than complaining that yours is wrong. to put it another way, painting your army a certain colour does not force you to use a particular codex. i can use Orks as Eldar if i want to. they're only models.

and why is it unhelpful to games design? what is the difference between army A that is flexible enough to do everything that any given player can imagine doing with it and army B that is flexible enought to do everything that any given player can imagine doing with it? seemingly very little indeed. to make armies worth writting codexes for you have accept some limitations based on style. if army A can do something army B can and vice versa, they are both worthwhile in the game. as suggested earlier that does not tie the player who like army A to start off with into playing with only those rules for life.


There's no point in having more army lists just for the sake of having more army lists, especially if it promotes unnecessarily narrow-minded or elitist views about what an army needs to be to be a Biel-Tan army or a Word Bearers army.

agreed, but that doesn't mean there should be nothing new under the sun. i would prefer one list that allow a genuine army for each of the Legions (it would be better for everyone that way), but i have to conceed that such a list would not perfectly represent the archetypes of each of the legions. that could be done much better if they were given a codex each.


If a new army list really adds something important to a faction which couldn't be done by other means, then sure. Sub-codices for Chaos Legions, particularly the "undivided" Legions, don't add enough to justify their existence.

would you care to justify why alternative legion codexes (i won't call then sub-list if you don't mind because that's not really waht we're talking about) couldn't add anything 'really important' to the race? or why undivided are particularly worse off than the cult legions? otherwise it rather sounds like your basing your statments on a lack of imagination rather than logic.

in fact whilst we're at it i'm going to throw the gauntlet down. bearing in mind that this discussion is built on hypothetical situations (the making of a further book or books for the Chaos Legions), simply commenting on other peoples ideas is not enough. i want to hear what you would do in the situation. imagine you are on the design team at GW and JJ comes to you and says the, "the time is right, i want you to come up with at least one book (it may be more if you choose but not less) to include one or more armylists for some or all of the Traitor Legions". now you personally have no choice (like us) over whether a book is going to be produced or not, but you do have ultimate control over the content that goes into it/them. what would you do? if you don't like Ddraiglais' ideas, that's cool. but what would you do differently, to make the lists worthwhile and yet as flexible as you want them to be? if you feel the last codex was too 1 dimensional how are you going to fix that but make all of the legions feel like they are their own thing.

Edit:


The idea behind making separate entry's or rules for legions/cults is not to force players into ONLY that exact formation.

i'm not sure exactly what's going on, but i think you and biccat are actually agreeing. albeit you are making differnt points from the same conclusion though.

The Song of Spears
07-02-2008, 18:02
When it comes to extra HS slots or extra FA slots or whatever kinda extra FOC slot, i think you all have forgotten to factor in the cost of the rest of the army.

Example: Before the IW list was a tack on thing to the standard chaos army. So the troops were so cheap they could min on those and then max out HS choices. But with the new Legions dex, the IW will have their own entry entirely, as will the other legions. So their troops and HS choices will be point balanced against the number of any given unit choice they have.

This goes for any Legion/Cult. This is the very reason why a Legions and a Cult codex will work and add to the game.

Ddraiglais
07-02-2008, 20:16
There's no point in having more army lists just for the sake of having more army lists, especially if it promotes unnecessarily narrow-minded or elitist views about what an army needs to be to be a Biel-Tan army or a Word Bearers army.

If a new army list really adds something important to a faction which couldn't be done by other means, then sure. Sub-codices for Chaos Legions, particularly the "undivided" Legions, don't add enough to justify their existence.

If they did do proper army lists for various factions there is nothing stopping you from using the base list to do the army you want. In 3.5 I had an IW 2nd company. I used the (generic) BL list with a warsmith dedicated to Khorne. I took regular troops and bezerkers painted as IW. I did not feel that I violated fluff in any way (3.0 codex and Storm of Iron seem to indicate that IW use bezerkers).

I feel that they added quite a bit (sometimes they added to the flavor of a legion by taking away from them). They were a great step towards very fluffy armies. If there is even more thought put into them with maybe some new characters or units, then they really need to be done.


I have an Iron Warriors army too, and I'm happy that I am finally allowed rules-wise to use daemons. Remember that out of the last 15 years or so, Iron Warriors have only been banned from using daemons for 5. Blanket statements like "Iron Warriors don't use daemons" are the sort of unhelpful stereotyping that the 3.5 codex really propagated, and without any real basis in the background or in common sense.

Fluff evolves. When they finally decided to do rules for the undivided legions they had to do things to add character. Sometimes that meant taking things away. Taking things away from legions also helped balance them (there was enough crying over the IW list without having to hear about daemon bombs as well). Whether it was for balance of fluff, in the end I feel it helped the fluff. In the case of the IW, it helped distance that legion from the rest of Chaos. It added to their paranoia.


Iron Warriors have a tendency to use big guns. Iyanden have a tendency to use proportionally more Wraithguard than other Craftworlds.

Does that mean every Iyanden task-force out there includes Wraithguard? No.

Does it mean an Iron Warriors army with assault troops and cannon-fodder daemons isn't a real Iron Warriors army? No.

If someone wanted to use a bunch of regular ELdar units painted as Iyanden, I'd have no problem with it. However, I do like the idea of a list that allows them to show their heavy use of WF and WL.

IW with lots of troops can use the normal list (with some restrictions). I'd even say IW with lots of FA would be fine to show a lightning fast group meant to get to the breech before the enemy could recover from the barrage.

Since 3.5 kinda laid the groundwork that IW don't use daemons, I would not play against a daemonheavy IW army. I see it as unfluffy. A pack of daemons maybe could be justified as being attracted to the battle (as opposed to summone). "Daemons" that looked more like mutants could be acceptable too. I just have a hard time with IW using daemons like the rest of Chaos does.


Traitor Legions and Craftworlds are huge organisations. While their forces may have broad similarities in composition or philosophical outlook, there's still plenty of room for variation.

I agree with you. That's why you could still use the general lists with some self imposed restrictions based on fluff. 40K battles (even Apocalypse) are samples of much larger battles. There is nothing saying that that section of the battle isn't where the majority of Iyanden's guardians are or the IW's fast units are preparing for their assault.

My problem is that the majority of that legion, craftworld, klan, etc isn't well represented by the generic codices. There is no way to fully capture the amount of firepower IW bring to the battle. There is no way to show just how few guardians Iyanden has. That's why I think we need seperate lists. There are many fans of these sublists. Some of the fans might be powergamers, but I think a lot of the fans of the sublists are fans of the fluff behind them. That's one of the reasons I am also voicing my opinion that the lists take some serious hits. I don't want to see the abusable lists again. I don't want to be accused of being a powergamer just because I use a certain list. I do want seperate lists because I want a unique army that follows the fluff of that army.

The Song of Spears
07-02-2008, 20:51
Hmm, having my first stroke of trouble here...

Alpha Legion Troops: The main marines guys... should they get anything special? If so... what?

AdmiralDick
07-02-2008, 21:04
Alpha Legion Troops: The main marines guys... should they get anything special? If so... what?

personally i would say no.

the most recent spate of Codexes have really gone to great lengths to make all of the units compete for your FOC slots (some might say too far, but that's another discussion), and it really does show up the importance of internal balancing.

if AL CSM are better than average marines, why take Cultists (assuming you have cultists in the list already)? the cultists and CSM need to compete for the slots and i don't think that giving the basic CSM extra special rules will make for a fair fight. in the end you'll only pick cultists to be 'fluffy' but perform no battlefield function, or just use them as ablative armour on the already suped up basic marines. neither prospect adds much to the AL's background or playing style.

if however, by 'special' you don't necessarily mean 'good'. then i might be more inclined to agree. making the units smaller and reducing their weapon options would make you treat marines like a much more scarce comodity.

DantesInferno
07-02-2008, 21:29
Does that mean that an all mounted army with bikes, infiltrating chosen, and troops in Rhinos would fit the "Iron Warriors" template?

Sure doesn't to me. Legions are huge, but armies need to be iconic instead of generic. Iron Warriors are the siege specialists of Chaos, so they should represent that in their army list.

Depends what you think the "Iron Warriors" template is, doesn't it? If it just means an army made from Chaos Marines from the Iron Warriors Legion, then it's entirely possible. Not all Iron Warriors sit in trenches all day. If you make a "Codex: Iron Warriors" which forbids this type of army, everyone begins to think that an all-mounted army in Iron Warriors colours with bikes, infiltrating chosen, and troops in Rhinos isn't a "real" Iron Warriors army, which is complete and utter nonsense.


Similarly, I think that an Alpha Legion list with dreads, oblits, and heavy weapon troops would be inappropriate considering their fluff.

Mind if I ask why?


ultimately, i think we boil down to the same point, that if a list is going to be created it need to be worth creating. however i think that you are perhaps a little more on the 'bah humbug' end of the spectrum to me. i think that you have a important message that whoever might one day create such lists needs to hear to keep on track, but i also think that some of your fears are unfounded.

Well, first and foremost, it's important to remember that there's a limited pool of resources and time for the Games Development team. I'd much rather see them developing races that need codices, or even new races, than see them developing lots of sub-codices for Chaos.

And the other main problem, as I've said, is that it stereotypes the Legions far, far too much, and tends to create elitism amongst some players, who take the stereotype of their Legion presented and then look down at people playing their Legion in a way which doesn't stick to this cartoon cut-out.


agreed, but that doesn't mean there should be nothing new under the sun. i would prefer one list that allow a genuine army for each of the Legions (it would be better for everyone that way), but i have to conceed that such a list would not perfectly represent the archetypes of each of the legions. that could be done much better if they were given a codex each.

Why wouldn't such a list be able to represent each of the Legions? There are far more similarities between the Legions than there are differences.


would you care to justify why alternative legion codexes (i won't call then sub-list if you don't mind because that's not really waht we're talking about) couldn't add anything 'really important' to the race? or why undivided are particularly worse off than the cult legions? otherwise it rather sounds like your basing your statments on a lack of imagination rather than logic.

Because lots of units are common to all the undivided Legions, and they don't have any signature units which can't be incorporated into a single Chaos Codex? Large slabs of each Codex would be basically reproduced unaltered for each different undivided Legion, in particular.

The same reason you don't need seperate Codices for Ultramarines and Mortifactors, for example. Sure, they're seperate organisations with completely different outlooks, but you can represent armies from both groups perfectly well using the same codex.


in fact whilst we're at it i'm going to throw the gauntlet down. bearing in mind that this discussion is built on hypothetical situations (the making of a further book or books for the Chaos Legions), simply commenting on other peoples ideas is not enough. i want to hear what you would do in the situation. imagine you are on the design team at GW and JJ comes to you and says the, "the time is right, i want you to come up with at least one book (it may be more if you choose but not less) to include one or more armylists for some or all of the Traitor Legions". now you personally have no choice (like us) over whether a book is going to be produced or not, but you do have ultimate control over the content that goes into it/them. what would you do? if you don't like Ddraiglais' ideas, that's cool. but what would you do differently, to make the lists worthwhile and yet as flexible as you want them to be? if you feel the last codex was too 1 dimensional how are you going to fix that but make all of the legions feel like they are their own thing.

To be perfectly honest, I think the recent Chaos Space Marines Codex does a pretty good attempt at representing the Legions. There are just a few holes which should really be filled (Cult Terminators would be nice, giving Daemons the ability to take Icons), but other than that, I'd much prefer them to devote time and energy to more deserving codex recipients.

A new Lost and the Damned Codex is really high up on the list: it would allow the representation of armies of cultists and mutants, perhaps including a handful of Chaos Marines leading the pack. This gives you two different ways of creating Legion armies: those made from pure Astartes forces, and then Legionnaires leading armies of auxiliaries.


Fluff evolves. When they finally decided to do rules for the undivided legions they had to do things to add character. Sometimes that meant taking things away. Taking things away from legions also helped balance them (there was enough crying over the IW list without having to hear about daemon bombs as well). Whether it was for balance of fluff, in the end I feel it helped the fluff. In the case of the IW, it helped distance that legion from the rest of Chaos. It added to their paranoia.

Since 3.5 kinda laid the groundwork that IW don't use daemons, I would not play against a daemonheavy IW army. I see it as unfluffy. A pack of daemons maybe could be justified as being attracted to the battle (as opposed to summone). "Daemons" that looked more like mutants could be acceptable too. I just have a hard time with IW using daemons like the rest of Chaos does.

Iron Warriors had a tendency to be paranoid, cynical siege fighters before the 3.5 codex, or even before their IA article. I just have no idea why that should translate into them being banned from using summoned daemons as cannon-fodder in their armies.

After all, they're perfectly happy to use Daemons to power their siege engines, wargear, and other equipment.


If someone wanted to use a bunch of regular ELdar units painted as Iyanden, I'd have no problem with it. However, I do like the idea of a list that allows them to show their heavy use of WF and WL.

And this is my point: the normal Eldar codex allows you to take lots of Wraithguard if you want to represent a Wraithguard-heavy Iyanden force.


My problem is that the majority of that legion, craftworld, klan, etc isn't well represented by the generic codices. There is no way to fully capture the amount of firepower IW bring to the battle. There is no way to show just how few guardians Iyanden has. That's why I think we need seperate lists.

If you want to do a firepower-heavy Iron Warriors force, what's wrong with using the Chaos Codex and just taking lots of Heavy Support choices and Marine squads with heavy weapons?

If you want to do a Guardian-light Iyanden force, what's wrong with using the Eldar Codex and just taking Wraithguard instead of Guardians?


There are many fans of these sublists. Some of the fans might be powergamers, but I think a lot of the fans of the sublists are fans of the fluff behind them. That's one of the reasons I am also voicing my opinion that the lists take some serious hits. I don't want to see the abusable lists again. I don't want to be accused of being a powergamer just because I use a certain list. I do want seperate lists because I want a unique army that follows the fluff of that army.

The problem, of course, is that in order to balance the proposed Legion Codices, some units have to be taken for balance purposes. And there's often no background justification whatsoever for these unit bans.

I just don't understand the suggestion that you can't have a unique, background-adherent army selected from a generic Chaos Codex. There's no point in imposing artificial restrictions: if someone thinks that their Iron Warriors army shouldn't take daemons, then just don't take them. Why penalise Iron Warriors Warsmiths who don't have a problem with daemonic shock troopers be restricted?

The Song of Spears
07-02-2008, 21:33
Well, by special i was thinking of bonus ability or some such. Kinda like how slaanesh noise marines get access to noise guns.

The codex is being developed with the current one in mind. So it is one or the other here. You either get 15point chaos marines and other stuff from the current CSM Codex OR you use the Traitors and Renegades Codex and you don't get Chaos Marines at ALL, instead if you are playing Alpha Legion you only get access to 20+ point per model AL marines who get some geek up to help them represent the fluff (as well as maybe a detriment to also represent the fluff)

I think I have an idea of what to do. I have been reading the extensive fluff on the AL and i think i have a idea of what average marines are up to in AL list should they be up to shenanigans at all...

Fulgrim's Gimp
07-02-2008, 21:47
How about for dealing with the Legions as a block you upgrade with a mark.

So for example a csm squad gets a 'mark' of the alpha legion and gets associated benefit for example infiltrate or maybe scouts, can take two special weapons or 1 special 1 heavy and lose infiltrate.I would say they can't take icons but cna take a teleport homer.

This could also apply to lords for example alpha legion lord gains rites of battle, word bearer lord gains litanies of hate and confers fearlessness to any squad he joins.

Also as a troop choice what about a cultist type squad similar to traitors(maybe worse save and no heavy weapons) from LATD but can be modified to refer to those who aspire to be csms. Allow them to be marked by the legion in a similar way but not count as compulsory troop choices (limited to 4 choices though). For sake of convenience I call them Supplicati:

Supplicati with World Eaters mark gain furious charge.
Supplicati with Death Guard mark gain feel no pain (plague zombies) or counterattack if that would be too overpowering.
Supplicati with Alpha Legion mark gain scouts or infiltrate.
Supplicati with Word Bearers gain fearlessness.

The Song of Spears
07-02-2008, 21:54
I am thinking bigger than that guys. We need more of a reason to pick a legion than a swapout of special rules.

Its kinda like the Blood Angels here, different from the Ultra Marines, they have their own special units the Ultras dont even get access to.


EDIT:
OK, Alpha Legion are done!

Next up is Black Legion and Lost and the Damned, then that's it for the legions (Unless you all think there is some other major legion that deserves special note)

Then its on to the four cults and....

Fulgrim's Gimp
07-02-2008, 22:05
Okay,but, don't all space marines start from a base-line regardless of chapter ? So are we after a cult type unit for each undivided legion to distinguish them as sufficiently unique or a way to make all legions function in a way different from the existing codex but as one list, robust enough to allow any legion to be made?

The Song of Spears
07-02-2008, 22:10
Okay,but, don't all space marines start from a base-line regardless of chapter ? So are we after a cult type unit for each undivided legion to distinguish them as sufficiently unique or a way to make all legions function in a way different from the existing codex but as one list, robust enough to allow any legion to be made?

Good question, but hard to answer. Again the best way is to point towards Blood Angels and Dark Angels as "Legions" and Space Wolves and Grey Knights as "Cults" in how much they will vary from the standard Ultra Marines.

So for instance: IW will likely not get a deamon prince. Not as part of their codex specialized fluff bound rules. But if you want a IW army with a DP then you need to use the current chaos codex and just make your models painted in the IW theme.

IW Will get their Warsmith back and he will have special ability's that no other chaos lord gets, based on fluff and balanced for the IW specifically.

However IW troops might get a bonus when dealing with fortifications either assaulting them or penetrating them. Their stats are normal for a marine, but they may get situation bonuses based on fluff of what they are good at. Some of the bonuses might come in all the time such as tank hunting or use of a basilisk as examples...


BTW:
I am thinking of having two different LatD lists:
One of Renegade Guard => to represent a world that is against the Imperium and might have some ties to chaos, with no access to marines
One of Chaos Cultists => to represent a world that is against the Imperium and is totally dominated by chaos, but has no access to marines.

AdmiralDick
07-02-2008, 22:35
Well, first and foremost, it's important to remember that there's a limited pool of resources and time for the Games Development team. I'd much rather see them developing races that need codices, or even new races, than see them developing lots of sub-codices for Chaos.

no doubt. i know i would rather see one well written and flexible codex per race than a morass of many, often similar, codexes. it would be better for the health of the game and for the players approach to the game. not sure that i'd pick new races over expanding current ones, as i think your likely to end up covering old ground that would be better taken with something that already occupies that old ground.

however, that is all an aside from the discussion at hand, because that is not the hypothetical offer we have been handed. and this discussion is about that.


And the other main problem, as I've said, is that it stereotypes the Legions far, far too much, and tends to create elitism amongst some players, who take the stereotype of their Legion presented and then look down at people playing their Legion in a way which doesn't stick to this cartoon cut-out.

i doubt that publishing styalised codexes would produce that. it just produces better definition between forces. poor marketing produces the attitude that the named on the front of the codex is the only army that can be produced from that book and equally that any army can only look like it does in a particular codex rendition of it.

more importantly, your worries about such things creating elitism in players is unnecessary, as such elitism is already rife. i once heard someone refer to someone elses army as 'this cartoon cut-out' because he didn't approve of the players theme. :eyebrows:


Why wouldn't such a list be able to represent each of the Legions? There are far more similarities between the Legions than there are differences.

a clever rebuttle, but sadly mistimed. i didn't say that it wouldn't be possible to represent Legions in such a codex.


Because lots of units are common to all the undivided Legions, and they don't have any signature units which can't be incorporated into a single Chaos Codex?

...currently, because they have never had the space for such units. as i have suggested repeatedly, why should Khorne Bezerkers be the same thing in each Legion? surely how the AL dedicate themselves and their practices to Khorne is not a carbon copy of how the NL would? if this is the case then those units, by necessity, could not really be in the same army list together.


Large slabs of each Codex would be basically reproduced unaltered for each different undivided Legion, in particular.

i see no reason why that has to be true. only in you generic ideal are the Legions forced to have such similarities (so that they can be like each other). conversely, in my styalised ideal i can certainly imagine a vast gulf of difference be the tiny forces of the AL and the vast forces of the WB. even basic marines would have to be different in such lists


The same reason you don't need seperate Codices for Ultramarines and Mortifactors, for example. Sure, they're seperate organisations with completely different outlooks, but you can represent armies from both groups perfectly well using the same codex.

perfectly well? or fairly well? or okay? or just adequately?


To be perfectly honest, I think the recent Chaos Space Marines Codex does a pretty good attempt at representing the Legions.

well, that's pretty cool for you. i personally think that the generic list (sans undivided Legion 'sub-lists') did a better job at it, but thats another discussion for another time, because you have deliberately sidestepped the issue that i put to you.

we get that you'd rather have one all conquering codex. we get that you feel that some of our ideas won't be for the best. however, by your own admission 'There are just a few holes which should really be filled' in the current codex, and the hint at the direction the designers are heading in is going to be an additional codex and not simply a remake. this is a purely hypothetical discussion in that nothing we suggest here is definitely going to be published next month (which is good because not all of us want any more chaos codexes nor other armies to be over looked). nevertheless, like the rest of us i guess you would like whatever might be produced be of the highest possible calibre, would you please just tell us what you would do to put them in that position given the already pre-fixed circumstances.


I just don't understand the suggestion that you can't have a unique, background-adherent army selected from a generic Chaos Codex.

:wtf: did you seriously just as why something can't be unique and generic at the same time?

Ddraiglais
07-02-2008, 22:39
Well, first and foremost, it's important to remember that there's a limited pool of resources and time for the Games Development team. I'd much rather see them developing races that need codices, or even new races, than see them developing lots of sub-codices for Chaos.

And the other main problem, as I've said, is that it stereotypes the Legions far, far too much, and tends to create elitism amongst some players, who take the stereotype of their Legion presented and then look down at people playing their Legion in a way which doesn't stick to this cartoon cut-out.

GW gives more attention to what sells. Chaos is either number 2 or 3 in popularity. SM are first, and I'm unsure on whether Chaoos beats IG or not. The bottom line is that regardless of all the whining on message boards, DE are not really that important. My next point is that GW could develope codices at a faster pace. The reason why they don't is that they also release new miniatures with each codex. With legion codices, they would have the majority of minis ready. They could just come out with kits (like IW and NL in the bitz store right now). They could redo the cult marines too. The legion codex(ices) would mostly be about the rules. That's a lot easier than releasing an entire line of minis along with the rules.

I happen to like the stereotypes. They make the legions more interesting than generic space marine Bob. Each army plays differently. Each army has it's own feel to it. If you don't like it, then play the generic list to field what you like. There will be people who will say that your army isn't what you say it is, but I'm sure you'd get over it.


Why wouldn't such a list be able to represent each of the Legions? There are far more similarities between the Legions than there are differences.

Any legion can play any way the player wants them to. That's just ridiculous. Add in to the fact that there are people who are new to Chaos starting armies that in no way shape or form resemble the fluff of their legion. Part of the problem is that if GW doesn't put restrictions on armies, there won't be anyone to enforce even a little bit of fluff. Quite a few players are too lazy to research the fluff of their legion before they start an army of that legion.


Because lots of units are common to all the undivided Legions, and they don't have any signature units which can't be incorporated into a single Chaos Codex? Large slabs of each Codex would be basically reproduced unaltered for each different undivided Legion, in particular.

The same reason you don't need seperate Codices for Ultramarines and Mortifactors, for example. Sure, they're seperate organisations with completely different outlooks, but you can represent armies from both groups perfectly well using the same codex.

For starters, see my comments on siege specialists. Servo arms come to mind too. Also there's the great idea from The Song of Spears. Certain units could be virtually the same, but cost differently for different legions. That would be a great way to balance the lists. It would also be a great way to introduce more flavor into the lists.

But somehow you need different codices for UM and BA, BT, DA, and SW? Oh, and before you start bringing the SM thing up, wait until traits are gone with the next codex. I think you'll see plenty of converts to the more lists/codices group when that happens.


To be perfectly honest, I think the recent Chaos Space Marines Codex does a pretty good attempt at representing the Legions. There are just a few holes which should really be filled (Cult Terminators would be nice, giving Daemons the ability to take Icons), but other than that, I'd much prefer them to devote time and energy to more deserving codex recipients.

A new Lost and the Damned Codex is really high up on the list: it would allow the representation of armies of cultists and mutants, perhaps including a handful of Chaos Marines leading the pack. This gives you two different ways of creating Legion armies: those made from pure Astartes forces, and then Legionnaires leading armies of auxiliaries.

I still haven't found a way to field an IW army I'd want to play as IW with the new list. I don't see all these similarities you are talking about. Even the most basic troop choice was seperated in the 3.5 list. My IW were siege specialists. In 90% of games that didn't matter one bit on the table top, but in my mind they were IW. My interest in 40K is at an all time low. I can't tell you the last time I was tempted to paint or game.

As much as I would love to see a daemonworld army or LatD list, they've already said it ain't gonna happen. Even if they did do something like that, it wouldn't fix the legion problem. It might help AL, but that's about it.


Iron Warriors had a tendency to be paranoid, cynical siege fighters before the 3.5 codex, or even before their IA article. I just have no idea why that should translate into them being banned from using summoned daemons as cannon-fodder in their armies.

After all, they're perfectly happy to use Daemons to power their siege engines, wargear, and other equipment.

If you can't see the difference between a bound daemon and a summoned daemon, then I don't think I can explain it to you. Bound daemons are mostly safe as long as the runes/rituals/whatever are kept up. Summoned daemons can still turn on you. This is doubly so since the IW are not out to further any particular gods' ideals.


And this is my point: the normal Eldar codex allows you to take lots of Wraithguard if you want to represent a Wraithguard-heavy Iyanden force.

The Chaos dex still doesn't allow you to take the legions though. I don't have a copy of the Eldar dex so I'm not 100% on what you can and can't take. If the Eldar dex allows you to field Iyanden, then that's a good thing. If you look at most of what I've posted on this subject, I don't really want codices for all of the legions. I don't want the crap we have now. I think they could have put more thoughts into the Chaos dex and toned the lists down without scrapping the idea of legions. They didn't. Now there's a possibility of the next best thing happening, and that's a legion dex or series of codices.


If you want to do a firepower-heavy Iron Warriors force, what's wrong with using the Chaos Codex and just taking lots of Heavy Support choices and Marine squads with heavy weapons?

If you want to do a Guardian-light Iyanden force, what's wrong with using the Eldar Codex and just taking Wraithguard instead of Guardians?

You mean like that BL army over there? What about like that Sons of Malice army over there? Maybe I'll just do my IW army with maxed out FA choices and everyone mounted in a rhino instead. ;) One of my biggest disappointments with the new dex was that the vindicator was no longer exclusive to the IW. The thing is that nothing is unique or exclusive. "I play an IW (or insert legion here) army" no longer means anything.


The problem, of course, is that in order to balance the proposed Legion Codices, some units have to be taken for balance purposes. And there's often no background justification whatsoever for these unit bans.

I just don't understand the suggestion that you can't have a unique, background-adherent army selected from a generic Chaos Codex. There's no point in imposing artificial restrictions: if someone thinks that their Iron Warriors army shouldn't take daemons, then just don't take them. Why penalise Iron Warriors Warsmiths who don't have a problem with daemonic shock troopers be restricted?

There is some truth to that, but I'd rather have a few restrictions than hear all the whining from the rest of the 40K fanbase. A lot of those restrictions became fluff, and eventually added to the character of the legions. I'm sorry that you want daemons in your IW army, but fluff changed to where IW don't use summoned daemons. Play a different legion or a renegade chapter. Maybe you could play two different armies of CSM or an IW army and a daemon army? Come up with some background where your grand company came across a world where there were strong cults. They could have made strong alliances with those cults.

The point is that there is nothing unique about an army when anyone can use the same exact list that you can. It's flavorless and bland to have the same list for what is suppose to be the most wild and varied faction in all of 40K.

The Song of Spears
07-02-2008, 22:48
I gotta say this: poo on all of you who think that there must be odd units to have balance, or that certain units will make an given legion unbalanced. Maybe you just lack the creativity of the rest of the 40k players or maybe you just don't care but you want to voice your opinion anyway.

Either way, the whole point to a separate codex for the legions is to ensure balance and fluff organization in the army. Some of these legions will be more filled out due to the legions codex, others will be more well defined. Either way, no 'pointless' or 'artificial' units or unit restrictions will be imposed whatsoever thanks to the legion getting its entirely own codex entry.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-02-2008, 22:56
This thread started out just noting that the Legions could be better represented and is now turning into every other thread about the Chaos Codex.

*headdesk*

*headdesk*

*headdesk*

*headdesk*

*headdesk*

*headdesk*

Honestly. Must this happen every time?

Ddraiglais
07-02-2008, 23:15
Next up is Black Legion and Lost and the Damned, then that's it for the legions (Unless you all think there is some other major legion that deserves special note)

Then its on to the four cults and....

The IW were running third in popularity in the Warseer poll (behind AL and TS). Out of all the legions, BL needs the least amount of attention. They are traditionally generic with a really powerful character added. I think all the legions should get touched on, with maybe BL being left out.


Good question, but hard to answer. Again the best way is to point towards Blood Angels and Dark Angels as "Legions" and Space Wolves and Grey Knights as "Cults" in how much they will vary from the standard Ultra Marines.

So for instance: IW will likely not get a deamon prince. Not as part of their codex specialized fluff bound rules. But if you want a IW army with a DP then you need to use the current chaos codex and just make your models painted in the IW theme.

IW Will get their Warsmith back and he will have special ability's that no other chaos lord gets, based on fluff and balanced for the IW specifically.

However IW troops might get a bonus when dealing with fortifications either assaulting them or penetrating them. Their stats are normal for a marine, but they may get situation bonuses based on fluff of what they are good at. Some of the bonuses might come in all the time such as tank hunting or use of a basilisk as examples...

I like the way you're thinking. Go big or don't go at all. :)

IW have DPs and possessed. There is plenty of fluff to support this. They wouldn't have summoned daemons in any way shape of form (generic or marked). The first big novel for IW was about their warsmith trying to ascend.

The only difference between a warsmith and a Chaos lord was the ability to take a servo arm. I would add the servo arm and maybe a special ranged weapon.

Here are some ideas that you might consider in addition to the above. IW as siege specialists works very well. The ability to take siege dreads is a great idea. I like some way to fit an extra HS choice in there, but it would take a lot of balancing. A basilisk or medusa would be awesome. I also like the idea of a special cannon for the IW. Maybe they could use the fantasy cannon and come up with some sort of siege rules for it?


BTW:
I am thinking of having two different LatD lists:
One of Renegade Guard => to represent a world that is against the Imperium and might have some ties to chaos, with no access to marines
One of Chaos Cultists => to represent a world that is against the Imperium and is totally dominated by chaos, but has no access to marines.

There's already the IG dex. On top of that, the Vraks militia list is out there. I'm sure there will be more lists in IA6, but that will probably include AL. Instead of a cultist list (that would be very weak), I'd rather see a daemonworld list with mutants or all sorts, daemons, and possibly some sort human cultists.

DantesInferno
08-02-2008, 00:57
i doubt that publishing styalised codexes would produce that. it just produces better definition between forces. poor marketing produces the attitude that the named on the front of the codex is the only army that can be produced from that book and equally that any army can only look like it does in a particular codex rendition of it.

It's not just poor marketing. If you call something "Codex: Iron Warriors", it's a fairly natural assumption that it's meant to represent Iron Warriors. People who then don't use "Codex: Iron Warriors" to represent their Iron Warrior armies are then going to face a stigma that they're either not using the "Iron Warrior" codex in order to powergame, or that they're not "real" Iron Warrior players. Either way, it's a completely unnecessary problem if the archetypal Iron Warrior force can be represented adaquately with the standard Codex.


more importantly, your worries about such things creating elitism in players is unnecessary, as such elitism is already rife. i once heard someone refer to someone elses army as 'this cartoon cut-out' because he didn't approve of the players theme. :eyebrows:

Please. I don't have a problem with people doing static Iron Warrior gunlines. It is, after all, what a substantial proportion of the Legion specialises in.

I do have a proble with people thinking that this is the only type of legitimate Iron Warrior force. Too many people succumb to the stereotype and get sucked in to thinking that's all the Iron Warriors are.


a clever rebuttle, but sadly mistimed. i didn't say that it wouldn't be possible to represent Legions in such a codex.

Well, you said: "such a list would not perfectly represent the archetypes of each of the legions. that could be done much better if they were given a codex each." That was what my question was directed towards.

I'll repeat it, then: "Why wouldn't such a list be able to (adaquately) represent each of the Legions?" What is there in an Iron Warrior force that couldn't be done in a Codex to cover all the Legions?


...currently, because they have never had the space for such units. as i have suggested repeatedly, why should Khorne Bezerkers be the same thing in each Legion? surely how the AL dedicate themselves and their practices to Khorne is not a carbon copy of how the NL would? if this is the case then those units, by necessity, could not really be in the same army list together.

Even if they're not carbon copies, it doesn't mean they need seperate rules. Look at a Mortifactor, then look at an Ultramarine.


i see no reason why that has to be true. only in you generic ideal are the Legions forced to have such similarities (so that they can be like each other). conversely, in my styalised ideal i can certainly imagine a vast gulf of difference be the tiny forces of the AL and the vast forces of the WB. even basic marines would have to be different in such lists

Basic Marines don't have to be different between the Night Lords and the Iron Warriors, nor should they. Not all Night Lords are sneaky, nor are all Iron Warriors shooty.


we get that you'd rather have one all conquering codex. we get that you feel that some of our ideas won't be for the best. however, by your own admission 'There are just a few holes which should really be filled' in the current codex, and the hint at the direction the designers are heading in is going to be an additional codex and not simply a remake. this is a purely hypothetical discussion in that nothing we suggest here is definitely going to be published next month (which is good because not all of us want any more chaos codexes nor other armies to be over looked). nevertheless, like the rest of us i guess you would like whatever might be produced be of the highest possible calibre, would you please just tell us what you would do to put them in that position given the already pre-fixed circumstances.

A Legion of the Damned Codex, as I already said. Or a slight redo of the Codex they just released to give a few more options which there wasn't much reason for leaving out (eg Cult Terminators).

If you guys want to design codices for the Legions, feel free. I get the feeling that they're either all going to look remarkably similar, or they're going to shoehorn players into playing an unnecessarily stereotyped picture of their Legion.


:wtf: did you seriously just as why something can't be unique and generic at the same time?

Err...No, I didn't. I said you could get a unique, background-adherent army selected from a generic Chaos Codex.


I happen to like the stereotypes. They make the legions more interesting than generic space marine Bob. Each army plays differently. Each army has it's own feel to it. If you don't like it, then play the generic list to field what you like. There will be people who will say that your army isn't what you say it is, but I'm sure you'd get over it.

But surely the whole point is that even with the generic list, you can field the shooty Iron Warrior list? Take Obliterators, Havocs, Marine squads with heavy weapons, and so forth. Unless you're pining for the 9 Obliterator/4 ordinance Iron Warrior army of 3.5 ed, in which case I don't really sympathise.


Any legion can play any way the player wants them to. That's just ridiculous. Add in to the fact that there are people who are new to Chaos starting armies that in no way shape or form resemble the fluff of their legion. Part of the problem is that if GW doesn't put restrictions on armies, there won't be anyone to enforce even a little bit of fluff. Quite a few players are too lazy to research the fluff of their legion before they start an army of that legion.

The background's still in the Codex. It's unfortunate if people don't bother reading it and make characterful armies. But it's really their loss: they're missing out on half the fun.

If the only way to "enforce" the background is to compell people to play a stereotype of their Legion, it's not worth it.


For starters, see my comments on siege specialists. Servo arms come to mind too. Also there's the great idea from The Song of Spears. Certain units could be virtually the same, but cost differently for different legions. That would be a great way to balance the lists. It would also be a great way to introduce more flavor into the lists.

Having identical units arbitrarily cost more or less depending on the background of the Legion in question is a horrible idea, and is really just asking to create unbalanced lists on the tabletop.


I still haven't found a way to field an IW army I'd want to play as IW with the new list. I don't see all these similarities you are talking about. Even the most basic troop choice was seperated in the 3.5 list. My IW were siege specialists. In 90% of games that didn't matter one bit on the table top, but in my mind they were IW.

So why aren't they Iron Warriors in your mind any more?


If you can't see the difference between a bound daemon and a summoned daemon, then I don't think I can explain it to you. Bound daemons are mostly safe as long as the runes/rituals/whatever are kept up. Summoned daemons can still turn on you. This is doubly so since the IW are not out to further any particular gods' ideals.

Daemon Weapons, anyone? :confused:

Given that they're far more dangerous in-game to your own side than summoned daemons are, I'd think the Iron Warriors would have a problem with them too, right? But no, the 3.5 list still allowed it.


One of my biggest disappointments with the new dex was that the vindicator was no longer exclusive to the IW. The thing is that nothing is unique or exclusive.

But surely you realised that there was no background reason that the Iron Warriors would have exclusive access to a Heresy-era tank? Why wouldn't other Legions be able to have them


"I play an IW (or insert legion here) army" no longer means anything.

It means you play Iron Warriors. It doesn't mean you get any rules advantages for doing so, but that doesn't make your Iron Warrior army any less legitimate.


There is some truth to that, but I'd rather have a few restrictions than hear all the whining from the rest of the 40K fanbase. A lot of those restrictions became fluff, and eventually added to the character of the legions. I'm sorry that you want daemons in your IW army, but fluff changed to where IW don't use summoned daemons. Play a different legion or a renegade chapter.

No, the 3.5 codex prohibited Iron Warriors using Daemons, more as an attempt to balance their extra heavy support choice than through any real basis in the background. They're perfectly happy to use daemons for all sorts of other purposes.


The point is that there is nothing unique about an army when anyone can use the same exact list that you can. It's flavorless and bland to have the same list for what is suppose to be the most wild and varied faction in all of 40K.

What's wrong with your imagination, for gods' sake? If you know you're playing an Iron Warriors army, what does it matter whether or not someone else can take the same units as you?

Captain Micha
08-02-2008, 01:03
Because people want to feel special.

Occulto
08-02-2008, 01:30
How about for dealing with the Legions as a block you upgrade with a mark.

I like that idea. It'd allow a single codex to represent all four undivided legions.

Icon of the Hydra: Allows one cultist squad per icon squad to be taken. Also allows CSM squad to be held in reserve with a reroll reserve rolls. Does not work as a summoning icon. Discount price for Veterans (who are more likely to infiltrate and not be held in reserves).

Rationale: encourages use of cultists. Reinforces the idea that Alpha Legion are masters of the surprise attack. Cultist entry could include rules for summoning to keep rules similar to v3.5

Icon of the Warsmith: Allows squad to purchase seige upgrades (bunkers, gun turrets, tank traps etc) instead of a transport vehicle. Does not work as summoning icon.

Rationale: encourages players to take a more seige-like army. Introduces new options to make IW play more like the fluff. Players have to make sacrifice of mobility for toys.

Icon of the Demagogue: Squad becomes fearless and allows reroll to daemon summoning roll.

Rationale: makes WB daemon use more reliable. Fearless represents fanaticism in Chaos (they are Chaos fundamentalists after all)

Icon of Terror: Squad causes -1Ld penalty in combat for every 5 models.

Rationale: encourages NL terror tactics.

Vaktathi
08-02-2008, 02:28
What's wrong with your imagination, for gods' sake? If you know you're playing an Iron Warriors army, what does it matter whether or not someone else can take the same units as you?

Well, given that there is probably a hell of a lot more difference between an Iron Warriors army and a Death Guard army than between Dark Angels and Ultramarines, I'd say that there is a good justification for a different list. Otherwise its just "Oh Chaos Marines! I can expect X,Y and Z" rather than "Oh Chaos marines? Do I expect A,B and C; X,Y and Z, or T,U and V?"






Personally, here's what I'm thinking of for an Iron Warriors list:

HQ:
1 Daemon Prince
OR Chaos Lord (Warsmith)
(Basically the same as current iterations but give Powerweapon and Powerfist the servo-arm repair ability)

0-1 Sorceror, must have Daemon Prince or Lord.

Elites:
Chosen (as now, only Icon of Khorne or Glory however)

Terminators:
Only Icon of Khorne or Glory: taken in squads of 3-12. May take a Reaper Autocannon or Heavy Flamer for every 3 Terminators. Everything else same.

Dreadnought: Same.

Possessed: Same. (Only Icon of Glory/Khorne)

Troops:
Chaos Marines: May take 2nd Heavy weapon in place of plasma gun/meltagun/flamer if squad numbers 10 or more. Extra heavy weapon costs an additional 5pts. May only have Icon of Glory. (so basically you can get 2 heavy weapons and 0 plasma/melta/flamer) May purchase a Bunker instead of a Rhino for 50pts, must occupy it at the beginning of the game. If a Rhino is taken, the Squad counts as a Fast Attack choice. Champion Power Weapon/Powerfist/LC's costs and additional 5pts.

0-3 Terminators:
Only Icon of Khorne or Glory: taken in squads of 6-12. May take a Reaper Autocannon or Heavy Flamer for every 3 Terminators. Everything else same. If taken as troops they also occupy a Fast Attack slot.


0-2 Berserkers

Fast Attack:
Bikers (Only Icon of Glory/Khorne)
Raptors (Only Icon of Glory/Khorne)


Heavy Support:
Obliterators: As Is
Havocs: (Only Icon of Glory/Khorne) otherwise same, may purchase a Bunker for additional 65pts, must occupy it at the beginning of the game.
Predator: Same
LR: Same
Defiler: same
Vindicator: 1 Vindicator may be swapped with a Basilisk w/Indirect Fire.



So basically its emphasizing stationary shooting ability (about 3-6 extra heavy weapons compared with a normal CSM list) and terminators at the expense of some of the HQ, FA and Troops options, and restricts marks on everything except HQ's. Mobility comes primarily through Deep Striking Termi's and maybe Oblits while the rest of the army sits in bunkers and shoots.

What do you think?

Ddraiglais
08-02-2008, 03:51
But surely the whole point is that even with the generic list, you can field the shooty Iron Warrior list? Take Obliterators, Havocs, Marine squads with heavy weapons, and so forth. Unless you're pining for the 9 Obliterator/4 ordinance Iron Warrior army of 3.5 ed, in which case I don't really sympathise.

With enough brake fluid, I could field the same exact army and call it IW one week and NL the next. When I felt like playing BL, I could do that too. Some days I like the AL and WB paint schemes. I could play all the Undivided legions without ever buying another mini!!!

I would like to see a way to do the 4 HS in a balanced way (if it's possible). I never liked fielding that many oblits though. If you're so concerned about that supposedly cheesy list, I could field 3 dreads, 9 oblits, and a LR with the current dex. :D Of course so could any other Chaos player.:mad:


The background's still in the Codex. It's unfortunate if people don't bother reading it and make characterful armies. But it's really their loss: they're missing out on half the fun.

I agree with you here. Sadly I've seen a switch on Warseer since the new dex. Fewer people refer to their army as "I play Iron Warriors" or "my Black Legion army". More and more posts are about "my Chaos army". The exception might be with the cult armies. I'm seeing a loss of the background with the loss of the rules.


If the only way to "enforce" the background is to compell people to play a stereotype of their Legion, it's not worth it.

It's better than seeing some of the combos that people are coming out with. I also think it's better when people take pride in their armies. I really do think that people are just picking a color scheme that they like. A lot of the newer Chaos players don't care about the Iron Cage or Abby saving the BL.


Having identical units arbitrarily cost more or less depending on the background of the Legion in question is a horrible idea, and is really just asking to create unbalanced lists on the tabletop.

Actually, I was thinking of having certain things cost more to enforce some sort of balance. It would take a lot of thought, but it could help balance things. I still like my suggestion about the 4th HS for the IW. Make it so that it has to be a basilisk (or pick another HS choice). Make that unit cost 200% of the base cost (or whatever the playtesters figure out is fair).


So why aren't they Iron Warriors in your mind any more?

It's not that they're not on my mind. I just don't get excited when thinking about them. I have three armies. They are the Iron Warriors, their human slaves (traitor IG), and Legio Mortis allies. I use to be obsessed with just adding to my grand company. Now I just don't feel compelled to buy, paint, or game that much anymore. I haven't played a normal game of 40K since the new codex came out. My boltgun painted CSM just aren't Iron Warriors to me anymore.


Daemon Weapons, anyone? :confused:

Given that they're far more dangerous in-game to your own side than summoned daemons are, I'd think the Iron Warriors would have a problem with them too, right? But no, the 3.5 list still allowed it.

That's a dev thing. The only thing I can think of is that the IW love their weapons and would risk it to have a more powerful weapon. I know that's pretty weak. You'd have to ask the devs that question to get a better answer.


But surely you realised that there was no background reason that the Iron Warriors would have exclusive access to a Heresy-era tank? Why wouldn't other Legions be able to have them

It's noted that they take better care of their equipment than the other legions. Maybe that's why they had exclusive rights to the vindicators. What I want to know is where did all the legions find their vindicators. Did they have them parked on some sort of garage planet in the EoT all this time? :D


It means you play Iron Warriors. It doesn't mean you get any rules advantages for doing so, but that doesn't make your Iron Warrior army any less legitimate.

At this point, I'd take disadvantages. I just want something unique.


No, the 3.5 codex prohibited Iron Warriors using Daemons, more as an attempt to balance their extra heavy support choice than through any real basis in the background. They're perfectly happy to use daemons for all sorts of other purposes.

I'm 100% with you. It was done for balancing purposes. However, it did become a part of the fluff. If they went back to having daemons, I probably wouldn't be too bothered. Although I am more than willing to sacrifice daemons for more guns if that's what's needed to balance an IW list.


What's wrong with your imagination, for gods' sake? If you know you're playing an Iron Warriors army, what does it matter whether or not someone else can take the same units as you?

The problem is that I'm wouldn't be playing an IW army. I'd be playing boltgun painted CSM. For that matter (since I personally don't use HS oblits, daemons, or possessed) I'd all but be playing boltgun painted UM.



Because people want to feel special.

I don't know if you were being condescending or not, but you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I want my army to feel special and unique.


This thread is starting to turn into another the new Chaos dex sucks. I apologise for fueling that part of the thread. I doubt there will be any points that I haven't made yet. If anyone has any questions about why I don't think I can make an IW army with the new dex, feel free to PM me.

Now to get back on track:

@ Occulto
That's a great start. I especially like the emphasis on the IW using siege equipment. I think I would be happy with trenches, bunkers, razor wire, tank traps, etc. It also allows for some of the army to remain mobile.

@ Vaktathi
I usually like your suggestions about IW. These I love. It allows extra HW without being overpowered. It remains fluffy. I like keeping the IW with Khorne leanings. One thing I might add for a little more balance is that termies taken as troops and bezerkers do not count as your compulsory troop choices. In other words, you still need regular CSM. Add in Occulto's idea of being able to buy siegeworks with normal CSM, and that would be as perfect as I could hope for.



I'm adding this bit in case someone from GW is watching. There is a rumor that Planetstrike will be released with bunkers and other terrain. Occulto's idea of IW being able to take defensive terrain instead of transports would be a great selling point for those items.

Rioghan Murchadha
08-02-2008, 05:22
@DantesInferno:
One of the reasons that the 2 dimensional, 3.5 ed chaos legion lists worked is because a SM legion is created from the genetic code of its primarch. All primarchs had grotesquely cliched, overly emphasised personality traits. Therefore, it stands to reason that their legions would be the same.

As far as the powergamer argument goes, I played Thousand Sons when they were considered 'crap' (3.5). I'd love to go back to the rogue trader era fluff on the 1ksons, but GW has decreed that they are hollow suits of armour.. which is fine by me. Now, I'm actually offended that not only does my army not suck anymore, it also makes little sense. Somehow, the rubric still applies, yet all my terminators are alive, and wave little tzeentch flags around? My chosen, and posessed are alive, yet forgot how to be psykers?

Don't get me wrong. I can still run the same army visually speaking (although my 9 sorcerer chosen squad is abysmally equipped now). I just can't really remain faithful to the background that GW itself has given for said legion. (There is no fluff anywhere about the 1ksons recruiting new marines and giving them all terminator armour for example.)

People want legion specific lists, because it feels good to belong to a smaller, more 'elite' if you will, niche. This is why SM players won't typically say 'I play Space Marines.', but more often 'I play Dark Angels, or Relictors, or Space Monkeys, or whatever other chapter you can imagine.'

DantesInferno
08-02-2008, 10:10
@ Ddraiglais: In the interests of derailing the topic further, I won't respond in full to your points. Suffice it to say that I don't think an army needs special rules to be unique: it is and always has been up to the players to give their armies their own character.


@DantesInferno:
One of the reasons that the 2 dimensional, 3.5 ed chaos legion lists worked is because a SM legion is created from the genetic code of its primarch. All primarchs had grotesquely cliched, overly emphasised personality traits. Therefore, it stands to reason that their legions would be the same.

Except gene-seeds don't definitively determine the characters of Marines. Sure, they create a tendency to have certain character traits, but it's not to say that every Marine in a Legion has the same personality as their Primarch. Just look at Garro, Varren, Loken, and the other Marines who turned against their Primarchs during the Heresy.

What's more, the Traitor Legions don't mind creating new Chaos Marines of their Legion with the gene-seed of other Primarchs, or even using the gene-seed of Loyalist Marines captured on the battlefield. A substantial proportion of any given Traitor Legion isn't even going to have the same gene-seed as their Primarch, so claiming that the gene-seed is enough to make the Traitor Legions as homogeneous as the 3.5 Chaos Codex suggested just doesn't float.


As far as the powergamer argument goes, I played Thousand Sons when they were considered 'crap' (3.5). I'd love to go back to the rogue trader era fluff on the 1ksons, but GW has decreed that they are hollow suits of armour.. which is fine by me. Now, I'm actually offended that not only does my army not suck anymore, it also makes little sense. Somehow, the rubric still applies, yet all my terminators are alive, and wave little tzeentch flags around? My chosen, and posessed are alive, yet forgot how to be psykers?

Don't get me wrong. I can still run the same army visually speaking (although my 9 sorcerer chosen squad is abysmally equipped now). I just can't really remain faithful to the background that GW itself has given for said legion. (There is no fluff anywhere about the 1ksons recruiting new marines and giving them all terminator armour for example.)

All the other Legions are recruiting new members in the Eye, why wouldn't the Thousand Sons be? It's just common sense.

Rioghan Murchadha
08-02-2008, 15:01
Except gene-seeds don't definitively determine the characters of Marines. Sure, they create a tendency to have certain character traits, but it's not to say that every Marine in a Legion has the same personality as their Primarch. Just look at Garro, Varren, Loken, and the other Marines who turned against their Primarchs during the Heresy.
Hey... it was just a fluffy excuse ;)


What's more, the Traitor Legions don't mind creating new Chaos Marines of their Legion with the gene-seed of other Primarchs, or even using the gene-seed of Loyalist Marines captured on the battlefield. A substantial proportion of any given Traitor Legion isn't even going to have the same gene-seed as their Primarch, so claiming that the gene-seed is enough to make the Traitor Legions as homogeneous as the 3.5 Chaos Codex suggested just doesn't float.

All the other Legions are recruiting new members in the Eye, why wouldn't the Thousand Sons be? It's just common sense.

Well, a couple reasons. 1. As far as I've been able to find out, the sons weren't as fractured and decimated as many of the other traitor legions (Ahriman's Cabal excepted). 2. Magnus doesn't really care about, or pay attention to crap like that, and 3. Even if they did recruit/make new marines, that still doesn't explain why it is that all the Noobs get the terminator armour and other such crap. Surely the sons had some terminators during the rubric.

The Song of Spears
08-02-2008, 15:17
Alpha Legion is likely not recruiting from the eye, as per their fluff they are getting recruits from the imperium.... fresh traitors.

And while i think you guys are being creative about the different legions, particularly IW here, i think some of the ideas are a bit too complex.

While the bunker idea is fun, IW dont carry bunkers with them everywhere they go. Per traditional siege warfare they DIG IN wherever they can. So the more likely option would be to have them get a bonus like being fearless if they are in cover that is 3+ or better, and maybe even given certain squads the ability to 'upgrade' their current cover (like pathfinders do) to get a +1 to their cover save to represent them digging in and making trenches and bunkers and whatnot...

That works within the existing game system, does not require new odd models like bunkers and is relatively simple and there is a precedent for such rules elsewhere.


EDIT:
BTW the current legions are done:
Iron Warriors
Night Lords
Alpha Legion
Word Bearers

The only other legion i have heard anyone care about is the Black Legion, so they are currently slated to be the last Legion to be done. After that is the LatD who will likely require a whole thread dedicated to them as it is kinda hard for me to not see the current IG codex as being just fine for them, with each model a 'counts as' kinda deal (i.e. Commissar = Aspiring Champion, JO = Cult Leader, etc...)

Captain Micha
08-02-2008, 17:54
How dare you say that people not care about Thousand Sons! as a chaos player you should be ashamed of yourself Song.

The people that are saying "there isn't a black legion list!" are being intentionally stupid. I suspect the current Chaos codex was made for them.

Rioghan Murchadha
08-02-2008, 18:09
How dare you say that people not care about Thousand Sons! as a chaos player you should be ashamed of yourself Song.

The people that are saying "there isn't a black legion list!" are being intentionally stupid. I suspect the current Chaos codex was made for them.

Agreed. I would say that out of the different non-powergamer legions (yes, I'm looking at you Iron Warriors:p), the Sons probably have one of the most dedicated followings.

The only problem is, with the current codex, it's not hard to win with the Sons. It's just hard to make a proper post Rubric list. Regardless of recruiting policy, the Chosen of a cult dedicated to tzeentch should not be forced to carry a little picture on a stick to prove their devotion. Likewise, the Terminators of the legion should be Rubric as well.. This isn't exactly a gameplay bonus, just something that is offensive from a fluff standpoint. I can still build the same 1ksons list that I had before visually. It just doesn't actually represent what it is in game. In all GW published fluff it very clearly states that all 1ksons are either a)powerful sorcerers, or b)piles of dust in armour.

On the other hand, if I use my Tzaangors as representing lesser daemons, I can perfectly recreate a pre-rubric 1ksons army (with the noted exception of the thrall wizard bands of course)...

AdmiralDick
08-02-2008, 19:00
How about for dealing with the Legions as a block you upgrade with a mark.

its certainly another concept. armies might look a lot more like 1st and 2nd ed ones (particularly like Orks, but chaos had a similar eclectic feel).


I like that idea. It'd allow a single codex to represent all four undivided legions.

i really admire your creativeness here, there are some good ideas, but i don't think that this direction is likely to yield the kind of fruit that many players are clamoring for.

whilst the 'marks' might well be a good representation for all the stereotypes of a given legion boiled down onto one unit, they can't readily be applied to a whole army with the same quality of results. you would have to limit who could take such marks (or how many you could have in an army) and pretty much force people to take eclectic and generic feeling armys.


For sake of convenience I call them Supplicati:

i believe the actual term for someone being tested to see if they are suitable to become a Space Marine is Aspirant. however, these are usually young or teenage boys, so i think including them in the army as is might not be very sensible as their combat effectiveness is not very high. but the general idea of including regular humans/cultists who can be marked to represent other things (plague monks, thrall wizard cabals, etc) is perfectly sound.


Okay,but, don't all space marines start from a base-line regardless of chapter ?

there is a differnce between saying that 'varient marine armies should based on a basic marine list' and 'basic marines are the basic building block of varient marine armies'.

the former starts from an already heavily fixed point allowing relatively little growth, but requiring little work, where as the latter requires more work to construct a new list, but you can end up in an altogether more exciting place at the end.

(however, if you are being literal, then yes. the process of making aspirants into marines brings the relatively hotch-potch crowd of aspirants into line by augmenting them all till they are at the same level. after that the developement of a space marine is dependent on external factors like environment and age).


Good question, but hard to answer.

not that i think you are doing this, but i thought i'd step in before the attitude gets a foot hold.

we aren't necessarily trying to find answers on this thread just to see what ideas people have had. its cool that you are collating things, but you won't have a finite answer at the end (unless everyone suddenly agrees on everything).

people are free to express their desires to see legions taken in whatever direction they want. and everyone else is free to ask them more about it and even disagree, but that doesn't make either side right.

mind you its cool to see that there are so many things that so many of us agree on, even without having discussed it previously or having been from seemingly opposite sides of the fence in other discussions.


They wouldn't have summoned daemons in any way shape of form (generic or marked).

i know that you are pretty keen on this idea of no daemons in a IW army, but what if GW published a Codex: Iron Warriors that included daemons and gave some kind of justification for it? would you maintain your stance an say that new background is wrong? or would you say that things can mature without simply becoming something different and thus the shift in focus is okay?


A [Lost and the] Damned Codex, as I already said. Or a slight redo of the Codex they just released to give a few more options which there wasn't much reason for leaving out (eg Cult Terminators).

okay, and what exactly would you put in these codexes?


This thread started out just noting that the Legions could be better represented and is now turning into every other thread about the Chaos Codex.

Honestly. Must this happen every time?

not at all.

what did you think of my idea of including human retainers? and having them tailored to suit the themes of each legion?

Captain Micha
08-02-2008, 19:08
I have to say this is quite possibly the only chaos thread that's worth reading.

I feel that they could do a Thousand sons list that would actually make me -want- another meq codex. And I think it is pretty well stated how I feel about marine over saturation.

If they included Rubric termies, (don't get me wrong I love that 4+ invulnerable... but come on.... it goes away when the flag carrier dies? then again that's my problem with all icons and things like them)

Along with maybe Tzeencth minor psychic powers for the serjs.

and maybe even thralls after a fashion. (maybe just copy and paste the Sanctioned Psyker at the worst case scenario and give some kind of perk for having a full squad of them, like a normal level psychic power which the unit rolls for to make happen regardless of whether or not they got the "haha you stupid ***** you get no power" result)

Given that apparently Gw can't some how find a way to put multiple sm codexes into one codex (even though most of it is just a simple copy and paste job book to book) I do have to say, unfortunately if they were going to do Legion codexes, they -must- do multiples. Even at the expense of over saturation even more than present.

Otherwise, we -will- end up with the last edition chaos codex all over again. Which I would rather leave that stinking pile rotted in it's unmarked grave than resurrect.

AdmiralDick
08-02-2008, 19:27
I have to say this is quite possibly the only chaos thread that's worth reading.

i'm glad that you've found at least one (heck you've taken part in enough of them :p)


I feel that they could do a Thousand sons list that would actually make me -want- another meq codex. And I think it is pretty well stated how I feel about marine over saturation.

i have to say that the Thousand Sons are still the army i struggle most with in my head. what are they supposed to represent? what are they supposed to be like? how are they supposed to play?

could you add a little bit a flavour to your ideas; what would the over all theme of the list be? how would they play and how would that be different to other armies? would giving all the units the Rubric abilities be enough of a difference? what would the differences between a wholey Rubric and a current CSM army be?


like a normal level psychic power which the unit rolls for to make happen regardless of whether or not they got the "haha you stupid ***** you get no power" result

i actually quite like that idea as a general priciple in a Tzeentchen army. the exact ability/psychic power something will have is not set until you start. it would really add to the trisky and false nature of a Tzeentch army, because you could never be quite sure what you were facing until it was 'too late'.

(just to caution you though, i am certainly not in favour of complete randomness in that context as it is no fun at all. if the abilities that were randomly selected between all broadly did the same thing, then i'm cool)


Which I would rather leave that stinking pile rotted in it's unmarked grave than resurrect.

not a Nurgle fan then?

The Song of Spears
08-02-2008, 19:32
not that i think you are doing this, but i thought i'd step in before the attitude gets a foot hold.

we aren't necessarily trying to find answers on this thread just to see what ideas people have had. its cool that you are collating things, but you won't have a finite answer at the end (unless everyone suddenly agrees on everything).

people are free to express their desires to see legions taken in whatever direction they want. and everyone else is free to ask them more about it and even disagree, but that doesn't make either side right.

mind you its cool to see that there are so many things that so many of us agree on, even without having discussed it previously or having been from seemingly opposite sides of the fence in other discussions.


Yeah, and thats fine and all, in regards to the post of mine you quoted, i was answering a direct question from another poster. Which, as you may be able to tell, i answered in opinion only really.

But yes, it is good to hear everyone opinion, and it will be interesting to see what things we all do agree on.


How dare you say that people not care about Thousand Sons! as a chaos player you should be ashamed of yourself Song.

The people that are saying "there isn't a black legion list!" are being intentionally stupid. I suspect the current Chaos codex was made for them.

Um... i think you misread a post or something, i never spoke out against TS...

Maybe you are confused on who said what...???

And as far as black legion... well, IMHO, the current codex actually fairly well represents the BL minus a few stupid powers and dumb unit options....

Captain Micha
08-02-2008, 19:44
i'm glad that you've found at least one (heck you've taken part in enough of them :p)



i have to say that the Thousand Sons are still the army i struggle most with in my head. what are they supposed to represent? what are they supposed to be like? how are they supposed to play?

could you add a little bit a flavour to your ideas; what would the over all theme of the list be? how would they play and how would that be different to other armies? would giving all the units the Rubric abilities be enough of a difference? what would the differences between a wholey Rubric and a current CSM army be?



i actually quite like that idea as a general priciple in a Tzeentchen army. the exact ability/psychic power something will have is not set until you start. it would really add to the trisky and false nature of a Tzeentch army, because you could never be quite sure what you were facing until it was 'too late'.

(just to caution you though, i am certainly not in favour of complete randomness in that context as it is no fun at all. if the abilities that were randomly selected between all broadly did the same thing, then i'm cool)



not a Nurgle fan then?

Yeah, you'd think after a while I'd learn to not bother :p

I plan on having a nurgle slaaneshi force when the Daemons codex comes out. Just more using rotted decayed and stinking to describe how -bad- it was in terms of making the legions which I liked into strict caricatures of themselves.

Well, they would of course have the whole, they are an army who's entire heavy firepower relies on the psychic test thing. (and they would get some really nasty ones for it)

I would not give them some kind of anti psychic defense because I have never heard mention of Tzeencth using his powers defensively. It'd be all about raw offensive potential. Be that through powers like guide, or by something like lightning bolts, warptime or some other abilities.

They would be expensive as all get out since every unit would have an invunerable save and there are a ton of psychic powers. It would be almost like Gks, except you know actually worth a crap compared to everyone else.

Vaktathi
08-02-2008, 19:52
I would not give them some kind of anti psychic defense because I have never heard mention of Tzeencth using his powers defensively. It'd be all about raw offensive potential. Be that through powers like guide, or by something like lightning bolts, warptime or some other abilities.


I dunno, you'd think the forces of the Chaos God of magic, mystery and change would have defenses against enemy psychic powers, befuddling and clouding their minds or throwing up wards under which they can operate without distraction.

incarna
08-02-2008, 19:52
My ideas will probably be ignored but I think the codex can mirror the current codex. Whether it’s done in 4 separate codex or lumped together into one big codex is irrelevant to me. I believe that the legions should have the option to be marine-based, cultist-based or a blend of the two.

Thousand Sons/Tzeench:

HQ: the Thousand Sons HQ marine should have access to a variety of psychic powers. I believe there should be a Tzeench-specific greater demon like there was in the previous chaos codex. I believe there should also be a “Tzeench cult” priest who can take a retinue similar to an inquisitor from codex demon hunters/witch hunters.

Troops: I believe there should be the option to include cultists drawn from demon worlds as troops. These might work like conscripts in the IG codex… perhaps a leader could have a psychic gift or two. Of course the Thousand Sons would be the basic marine-based troop… but ONLY if the army contains a Thousand Son sorcerer HQ. I think demons should be available as troops as well.

Elites: I believe the Thousand Sons should be able to take terminators and squads of sorcerers as elites. I believe there should be a mid-range demon on similar power level to IG Ogryns, Necron Immortals/Pariahs, or Eldar aspect warriors (Fire Dragons come to mind). Lastly, there should be “Tzeench devotee’s” who kinda behave like week Eldar seer-councils… providing buffs to nearby squads and capable of dishing a bit of firepower on their own.

Fast Attack: Cultists nailed to disks of Tzeench tear-assing around the battlefield come to mind… maybe functioning like Necron Destroyers with the capacity to “suicide” with a large blast template… as well as, of course, screamers of Tzeench. I believe that the Thousand Sons sorcerers would also have figured out how to animate mechanical things in a similar way to how Defilers are animated so I can see empty rhino’s with tons of bolters attached to the hull or rider-less bikes screaming arround the field as well.

Heavy Support: Cultist heavy weapons teams similar to IG. Thousand Sons Havoc squads with limited anti-tank weaponry lead by a sorcerer would also work. Of course Preds, Landraiders, etc would also be included in this category. I believe special consideration should be given to the Thousand Son Dreadnaught who aught to be very very difficult to kill… after all… there isn’t anything vital inside that mechanical monster.

World Eater’s/Khorn:

HQ: World Eater’s HQ should be blood-thirsty killers of course. As above, a Khorn-specific greater demon should exist. Lastly, as above, a “Khorn cult” priest.

Troops: Of course World Eater’s and demons. As with the “cult” theme I believe there should be cultists who are like IG with warrior weapons.

Elites: World Eater’s should have figured out, by now, how to take down vehicles in hand-to hand combat. Perhaps tank-hunter World Eater’s who auto-hit vehicles on 4+ and are equipped with chain fists. I think there should be a mid range demon here as well. Lastly, “Khorn devotee’s” who maybe behave like weaker Striking Scorpions/Howling Banshee’s.

Fast Attack: World Eater’s gotta have bikes, demonic beasts, and Juggarnaughts. I believe the Dreadnaught should be moved to this category for Khorn and have additional movement associated with a frenzied bloodthirst.

Heavy Support: Normal stuff; preds, Landraiders, etc. I think a Khorn Berserker surrounded by group of cultists who he can sacrifice individually once every round to have some sort of cool anti-vehicle Khornate power happen would be awesome as well.

More to come on World Eater’s/Slanesh and Death Guard/Nurgle if I see any interest in my ideas.

Ddraiglais
08-02-2008, 19:57
i know that you are pretty keen on this idea of no daemons in a IW army, but what if GW published a Codex: Iron Warriors that included daemons and gave some kind of justification for it? would you maintain your stance an say that new background is wrong? or would you say that things can mature without simply becoming something different and thus the shift in focus is okay?


GW is notorious for changing fluff. If they did that, I would be cool with others using them. I've never been a big fan of daemons. I didn't use that many when they were allowed in the first place. In 2nd ed I played Chaos. I used lots of CSM and termies. I had a baneblade, a baneblade/shadowsword, and a warhound. I had tons of IG with mortars as allies. My army was tank heavy and HW heavy. It was very long range and shooty. I haven't strayed from that that much. As GW developed the IW and I learned more about the fluff, it was only natural that my black primered legion eventually got a bolt gun paintjob.

I have some ideas on how I would include 'daemons' in my army now. I could model up some combat servitors and robot mutants. I could do some failed experiments with the techno virus. There are tons of ways an IW player could go with this. The idea of plaguebearers or a keeper of secrets in an IW army still doesn't sit well with me though. I like the idea of daemon possessed machines much better for IW. I guess if GW officially came out and said IW use daemons, I'd be o.k. with it though.

Captain Micha
08-02-2008, 19:59
I dunno, you'd think the forces of the Chaos God of magic, mystery and change would have defenses against enemy psychic powers, befuddling and clouding their minds or throwing up wards under which they can operate without distraction.

True, and given that -almost- all psychic capable armies have some kind of defense it would probably be a good idea.

ooo I know... automatic mind war with enemy psyker when said enemy psyker uses his power.

Ddraiglais
08-02-2008, 20:38
I think Incarna is on to something. We could have varying levels of cult troops. You could have HS bezerkers who are o.k. against infantry, but tear tanks apart. TS HS could shoot a spell similar to a battle cannon or something. FA TS could have a psychic ability to make themselves and their squad move faster and maybe hit and run. You could maybe give them the ability to cast this on other squads. I love the idea of a TS sorceror coven (seer council). I could see a lot of borrowing from the Eldar for TS. I like the concept of TS sorcerors beefing up their squads with spells. If they do do the legions, this is the perfect chance for them to do TS right. They should have tons of psychic powers. The same goes for other cult troops.

WE should get psychic defenses. They should get all of the Khorne daemons. I love the idea of bezerkers specializing. This would also be a great opportunity to showcase Khorne as the god of war. Of all the legions in the 3.5 codex, the WE were the one I did not like. WE should have tons of bezerkers, but they shouldn't all be bezerkers. Khorne wants blood. It doesn't matter if the blood is shed from 1000 miles away or 2 ft away. True there is more marial prowess in HTH fighting than launching a missile from orbit, but Khorne wants blood. If anyone remembers Space Marine, Khorne had some of the hardest hitting ranged weapons out there. I do think that FW will remedy some of this in IA6.

DG should be hard as nails. Others have mentioned glacial. That's how they should be. Slow and unkillable. DG should be a mostly infantry force (including daemons). I would like to see a daemon engine (maybe an upgrade to the predator or vindicator) that would allow some kind of contagion shot. DG sorcerors should be all about spreading disease.

EC should keep their noise marines and daemons, but I would like to see them more intended for more mature audiences. I am unsure how to do this exactly. I just think that the BDSM nature of EC should be taken to more extremes. Maybe they could have an antitank ability for a psychic power that doesn't damage the tank, but tortures the crew? It wouldn't need to roll for armor penetration, but it would keep the tank's crew shaken. They could have some ability or machine that didn't kill opponents (thus not counting for VP), but would keep them incapacitated. Make it a tank. If it successfully tank shocked infantry, then they would be removed from the game but not count for VP.

I'm more or less just thinking out loud here. Any criticism/points would be much appreciated.

The Song of Spears
08-02-2008, 21:05
I dunno about the WE getting psychic defenses... They eschew psychic powers totally, which means that like Conan, they have a weakness against magic(psychic) powers. The collar of khorne is their one rare god given gift to over come this, but there is not one for everyone...

DantesInferno
08-02-2008, 22:10
Well, a couple reasons. 1. As far as I've been able to find out, the sons weren't as fractured and decimated as many of the other traitor legions (Ahriman's Cabal excepted). 2. Magnus doesn't really care about, or pay attention to crap like that, and 3. Even if they did recruit/make new marines, that still doesn't explain why it is that all the Noobs get the terminator armour and other such crap. Surely the sons had some terminators during the rubric.

1+2: Why wouldn't Magnus be in favour of recruiting new Thousand Sons Marines? He sacrificed everything to save his beloved Legion on Prospero, and he was mightily pissed when his right-hand-man accidentally turned a large proportion of his Legion into dust. And even if Magnus doesn't pay attention to stuff like recruitment, surely his subordinates will. And this is only the portion of the Legion loyal to Magnus: those in Ahriman's renegade Cabal and any other sorcerers who've struck out on their own certainly won't have any qualms about increasing the strength of their forces (and ensuring they don't all die out).

3: Given the way that promotion was handled in the Thousand Sons pre-Heresy, it's likely that a significant proportion of the warriors gifted with the rare suits of Terminator armour had some level of psychic ability. Think of their psychic abilities as being powerful enough to save them from the Rubric and boost their invulnerable save to 4+, but not to manifest aggressive psychic powers. Obviously it would be nice if there was an option for Rubric Terminators as well in the Chaos list, but it certainly doesn't kill the Thousand Sons list. At the time of the Rubric and by M41, it's likely that most of their Terminators would be living Marines and not Rubrics.

And it's not like any new recruits would automatically be gifted with Terminator armour: that's what CSM squads with Icons of Tzeentch are for.


In all GW published fluff it very clearly states that all 1ksons are either a)powerful sorcerers, or b)piles of dust in armour.

No, it states that the Rubric of Ahriman turned all the non-psychic members of the Legion into Rubric Marines, and amplified the psychic abilities of the other members of the Legion. So at the time of the Rubric all Thousand Sons Marines were powerful sorcerers or piles of dust.

However, they've no doubt been recruiting new members of the Legion since then, and these members will be represented perfectly adequately by taking CSM squads, Raptors, Havocs and so forth with Icons of Tzeentch.

This is what I see as one of the danger of specific Legion Codices: poorly thought-out background snippets used to arbitrarily restrict units which the Legions really should have on a background front.

Rioghan Murchadha
08-02-2008, 22:45
1+2: Why wouldn't Magnus be in favour of recruiting new Thousand Sons Marines? He sacrificed everything to save his beloved Legion on Prospero, and he was mightily pissed when his right-hand-man accidentally turned a large proportion of his Legion into dust. And even if Magnus doesn't pay attention to stuff like recruitment, surely his subordinates will. And this is only the portion of the Legion loyal to Magnus: those in Ahriman's renegade Cabal and any other sorcerers who've struck out on their own certainly won't have any qualms about increasing the strength of their forces (and ensuring they don't all die out).
If you read the Rogue Trader era background, most of the Sons' sorcerers typically pursued their own agenda with small warbands of marines typically supplemented by beastmen, and magic/psych users they picked up from cults and such. Note that there is virtually no 'official' fluff on what happened to the Sons after Prospero. Based on that, why do they necessarily need to recruit at all? Ahriman, for the most part has been the only one out and about doing stuff.


3: Given the way that promotion was handled in the Thousand Sons pre-Heresy, it's likely that a significant proportion of the warriors gifted with the rare suits of Terminator armour had some level of psychic ability. Think of their psychic abilities as being powerful enough to save them from the Rubric and boost their invulnerable save to 4+, but not to manifest aggressive psychic powers. Obviously it would be nice if there was an option for Rubric Terminators as well in the Chaos list, but it certainly doesn't kill the Thousand Sons list. At the time of the Rubric and by M41, it's likely that most of their Terminators would be living Marines and not Rubrics.
Yeah.. except I don't like to think of it like that. And that whole line of thinking is blasted to hell and back as soon as the icon bearer dies. At the time of the Rubric, all terminators would've either been sorcerers or piles of dust. We don't have any actual background info as to why the terminators all of a sudden ended up alive, and less devoted to Tzeentch.


And it's not like any new recruits would automatically be gifted with Terminator armour: that's what CSM squads with Icons of Tzeentch are for.
Apparently it IS like that.. how else do you explain the fact that Termis are less devoted than regular 1ksons marines?


states that the Rubric of Ahriman turned all the non-psychic members of the Legion into Rubric Marines, and amplified the psychic abilities of the other members of the Legion. So at the time of the Rubric all Thousand Sons Marines were powerful sorcerers or piles of dust.
And exactly where are you getting your info from regarding the time since the rubric? Hell I don't think they even give a date as to when the spell was cast.


However, they've no doubt been recruiting new members of the Legion since then, and these members will be represented perfectly adequately by taking CSM squads, Raptors, Havocs and so forth with Icons of Tzeentch.
I would like to suggest that there is in fact doubt here. No post RT era fluff touches on the recruitment policy of the 1kSons at all. Rubrics certainly can't manage a bike or a jump pack. Besides.. the change of Raptors from a unique undivided cult that hired out to other warbands, to just another troop type still bugs me.

Part of the issue is that the Thousand Sons of Magnus are not Easter and Christmas Tzeentch worshippers. (represented by an icon) They are a legion entirely devoted to a single god. They eat, sleep, breath, and crap Tzeentch. Consequently, it ruins my immersion factor when an icon bearer gets sniped, and all of a sudden, Tzeentch doesn't love my squads anymore.

Also.. How the hell do I explain away the chosen? Chosen of who or what exactly? Were they such crummy psykers that their only power is to sneak up on the enemy and shoot them with plasma guns? How can you be Chosen in a Tzeentch cult, and have to carry a flag to show how much you love your god?


This is what I see as one of the danger of specific Legion Codices: poorly thought-out background snippets used to arbitrarily restrict units which the Legions really should have on a background front.

Let's face it. Most 40k background is poorly thought out. The only reason certain armies are different at all is that some units are abitrarily restricted, and others are added. Most of the 'background' you're talking about is either very vaguely inferred from other pieces, or in your own mind. (If the Thousand Sons have mailed you a recruitment pamphlet, I'd love to see it ;))

What are Dark Angels save a couple bolted on rules, and a few arbitrary restrictions? Same with Blood Angels, Black Templars, or any other variant list you care to mention.

Ddraiglais
08-02-2008, 22:50
I dunno about the WE getting psychic defenses... They eschew psychic powers totally, which means that like Conan, they have a weakness against magic(psychic) powers. The collar of khorne is their one rare god given gift to over come this, but there is not one for everyone...

I was hinting at collars of Khorne. Also, if you look at the datafaxes for daemon engines dedicated to Khorne (cannon of Khorne, cauldron of blood, and the brass scorpion so far), they have psychic defenses.

The Song of Spears
08-02-2008, 22:53
I was hinting at collars of Khorne. Also, if you look at the datafaxes for daemon engines dedicated to Khorne (cannon of Khorne, cauldron of blood, and the brass scorpion so far), they have psychic defenses.

Right, but everyone done not have one... so it is only a wargear option handed out with express reason, on rare occasion IMO.

DantesInferno
09-02-2008, 00:01
Note that there is virtually no 'official' fluff on what happened to the Sons after Prospero. Based on that, why do they necessarily need to recruit at all? Ahriman, for the most part has been the only one out and about doing stuff.

They need to recruit to keep their Legion from dying out and to continue their Long War against the Imperium, exactly the same as all the other Traitor Legions (in fact even more so, given that the bulk of their Legion doesn't have gene-seed to harvest).


Yeah.. except I don't like to think of it like that. And that whole line of thinking is blasted to hell and back as soon as the icon bearer dies. At the time of the Rubric, all terminators would've either been sorcerers or piles of dust. We don't have any actual background info as to why the terminators all of a sudden ended up alive, and less devoted to Tzeentch.

Apparently it IS like that.. how else do you explain the fact that Termis are less devoted than regular 1ksons marines?

I'm not sure how "not Rubric" equals "less devoted to Tzeentch".


And exactly where are you getting your info from regarding the time since the rubric? Hell I don't think they even give a date as to when the spell was cast.

It was cast "soon" after the Legion's retreat into the Eye, since it was cast to stop the wave of mutations spreading "rapidly" through the Legion. Within a few hundred years of the Heresy is a safe bet.

It was definitely before M36, at any rate, which gives a minimum of 5 000 years of post Rubric recruitment for the Thousand Sons.


I would like to suggest that there is in fact doubt here. No post RT era fluff touches on the recruitment policy of the 1kSons at all. Rubrics certainly can't manage a bike or a jump pack. Besides.. the change of Raptors from a unique undivided cult that hired out to other warbands, to just another troop type still bugs me.

Just because post-rubric recruitment isn't explicitly mentioned, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But with a bit of common sense, it's pretty clear that the Thousand Sons recruit new members, just like all the other Traitor Legions.

And as for Raptors being a unique undivided cult, that never made sense anyway. Equipment was distributed by Legion pre-Heresy. Jump-pack users were rare, but were definitely still members of their Legion. While it's possible that a cult of pure jump-packers could have been set up in the Eye post-Heresy, the vast majority would have stayed with their Legion, or the warband into which their Legion fragmented.


Part of the issue is that the Thousand Sons of Magnus are not Easter and Christmas Tzeentch worshippers. (represented by an icon) They are a legion entirely devoted to a single god. They eat, sleep, breath, and crap Tzeentch. Consequently, it ruins my immersion factor when an icon bearer gets sniped, and all of a sudden, Tzeentch doesn't love my squads anymore.

Maybe this is the misunderstanding, then. Icons are not just for part-time worshippers of a particular God. To quote the Chaos Codex:


Most Chaos Space Marines worship the Chaos Gods in equal measure, giving praise to and asking favours from Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh with no preference. There are some squads, though, who dedicate their lives and souls to a single god. As a body of warriors, they take up the symbol of their god, his Mark of Chaos, and the deeds they perform are done in their god's name alone

The mark they get from their Icon is exactly the same as the Mark that Tzeentchian characters get, and presumably you don't have a problem with them representing Thousand Son Sorcerers? It's obviously unfortunate that they lose the benefit once the Icon Bearer dies, but it's just a game mechanic.


Also.. How the hell do I explain away the chosen? Chosen of who or what exactly? Were they such crummy psykers that their only power is to sneak up on the enemy and shoot them with plasma guns? How can you be Chosen in a Tzeentch cult, and have to carry a flag to show how much you love your god?

The Thousand Sons Legion on the battlefield have always been known for their guile, feint, confusion, misdirection, illusion and trickery. What's wrong with Infiltrate representing the Thousand Sons' abilities to manipulate their enemies?

Rioghan Murchadha
09-02-2008, 01:54
They need to recruit to keep their Legion from dying out and to continue their Long War against the Imperium, exactly the same as all the other Traitor Legions (in fact even more so, given that the bulk of their Legion doesn't have gene-seed to harvest).

Ah.. but Rubric marines don't 'die'. I would imagint that as long as you repair the armour, it still animates. The only 1ksons recruitment fluff I've ever seen mentions them recruiting people with magical aptitude, not grunt marine stock.



I'm not sure how "not Rubric" equals "less devoted to Tzeentch".
Because the actual cult troops get a built in mark that they don't lose if someone drops the stick.




It was cast "soon" after the Legion's retreat into the Eye, since it was cast to stop the wave of mutations spreading "rapidly" through the Legion. Within a few hundred years of the Heresy is a safe bet.

It was definitely before M36, at any rate, which gives a minimum of 5 000 years of post Rubric recruitment for the Thousand Sons.
Remember.. time flows differently in the Eye of Terror... ;)




Just because post-rubric recruitment isn't explicitly mentioned, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But with a bit of common sense, it's pretty clear that the Thousand Sons recruit new members, just like all the other Traitor Legions.
True, but I would expect it to be like the pre-rubric recruitment. Focused primarily on psykers, or sorcerers.


And as for Raptors being a unique undivided cult, that never made sense anyway. Equipment was distributed by Legion pre-Heresy. Jump-pack users were rare, but were definitely still members of their Legion. While it's possible that a cult of pure jump-packers could have been set up in the Eye post-Heresy, the vast majority would have stayed with their Legion, or the warband into which their Legion fragmented.
I would suspect that the raptors likely jumped ship and set up their own 'cult of speed' if you will.




Maybe this is the misunderstanding, then. Icons are not just for part-time worshippers of a particular God. To quote the Chaos Codex:
No misunderstanding. Just a horrendous dropping of the ball on the part of GW. If they're that devoted, surely they wouldn't lose the benefit from dropping the flag.



The mark they get from their Icon is exactly the same as the Mark that Tzeentchian characters get, and presumably you don't have a problem with them representing Thousand Son Sorcerers? It's obviously unfortunate that they lose the benefit once the Icon Bearer dies, but it's just a game mechanic.
A very unfortunate game mechanic, as it really ruins the flavour.


The Thousand Sons Legion on the battlefield have always been known for their guile, feint, confusion, misdirection, illusion and trickery. What's wrong with Infiltrate representing the Thousand Sons' abilities to manipulate their enemies?

I would hope that the cream of the crop of Psykers from a legion known for sorcerous power could muster something a little more telling than infiltrate. Besides, how the heck does that explanation then fit with chosen of every other god getting the same thing? Surely khorne doesn't care much for skulking about like a pansy...

DantesInferno
09-02-2008, 02:27
Ah.. but Rubric marines don't 'die'. I would imagint that as long as you repair the armour, it still animates. The only 1ksons recruitment fluff I've ever seen mentions them recruiting people with magical aptitude, not grunt marine stock.

....True, but I would expect it to be like the pre-rubric recruitment. Focused primarily on psykers, or sorcerers.

Surely psychic ability is one of the things which the 5+ invulnerable save for the Mark of Tzeentch can represent? Not all psykers are powerful enough to manifest the battlefield powers which an HQ-choice Sorcerer can.


Because the actual cult troops get a built in mark that they don't lose if someone drops the stick.

No misunderstanding. Just a horrendous dropping of the ball on the part of GW. If they're that devoted, surely they wouldn't lose the benefit from dropping the flag.

A very unfortunate game mechanic, as it really ruins the flavour.

I think you're making a bit too big a deal out of the fact that Tzeentchian Marines lose their 5+ invulnerable upon the death of the Icon Bearer.

Take it as the loss of their warp focus, which is necessary to amplify their psychic abilities to the level at which they gain a tabletop benefit.

It's really not that different from the Grey Knights, another famously psyker-only force. Your average Grey Knight is a psyker in the background, but doesn't use psychic powers on the tabletop. Their psychic abilities are rather represented through a range of squad-wide special abilities, such as The Aegis and The Shrouding.

Grey Knight Terminators can combine their psychic abilities to unleash the psychic power Holocaust, but only if their Brother-Captain is still alive. If he dies, the squad's ability to use its psychic power dies with him.


I would suspect that the raptors likely jumped ship and set up their own 'cult of speed' if you will.

What, all of them? From 9 Legions completely different in battlefield tactics and organisation, not to mention in philosophical outlook?


I would hope that the cream of the crop of Psykers from a legion known for sorcerous power could muster something a little more telling than infiltrate. Besides, how the heck does that explanation then fit with chosen of every other god getting the same thing? Surely khorne doesn't care much for skulking about like a pansy...

Other Legions have experienced veterans who specialise in infiltration? Thousand Sons just use sorcery, illusion and guile to achieve the same effect.

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-02-2008, 07:13
With all these complaints about Icons, it feels like people are losing their Icons a hell of a lot more than I am. I see only a few ways in the rules to actually 'snipe' models like that. Vindicare Sniper and Eldrad (who is a punk and shouldn't honestly be in half the battles he's in anyway, or with as many Craftwrolds as he is). Are that many of the lists you face so alive with such threats? Because honestly, I don't lose the Icon Bearer till the squad's wiped out.

AdmiralDick
09-02-2008, 08:12
I plan on having a nurgle slaaneshi force when the Daemons codex comes out.

with the current batch of rumours i suspect that the largest portion of daemon players will be having a Slaanesh/Nurgle mixed force (which is no good thing in my mind). but that's another discussion for another time.


Well, they would of course have the whole, they are an army who's entire heavy firepower relies on the psychic test thing.

this is one of the things i've found hardest to come to terms with in the design of 40k. there is enormous scope as to what psychic powers can be, and jumped up guns is probably the least common type in the background. and yet the vast majority of psychic powers in the game as just other types of gun.

it really pains me to see Tzeentchen abilities boiled down to 'they can shoot', because that is a real backwards step to my mind. i totally agree that Tzeentchen fire power should be intrinsically connected to their psychic powers, but that their psychic powers are all about heavy fire power is frankly ridiculous and adds nothing to the game or their background (and this isn't an attack on you Captain Micha, because this is something that GW have been pushing for a long time and i don't think its entirely what you were getting at, but the notion really gets my hackles up).

i want to see the majority of Tzeentchen powers about twisting fate, not about shooting. (but i would also like their 'shooting' and 'assault' to be about psychic powers).


I would not give them some kind of anti psychic defense because I have never heard mention of Tzeencth using his powers defensively.

i actually quite like this idea. after all the Chaos Gods are fickle. to follow them is not to be thier friend. Tzeentch will only protect in for as long as he can get what he wants from you, he never actually likes you. so why wouldn't Tzeentch delite in seeing the Thousand Sons blow appart by the enemy, as much as he delites seeing them blow others apart? as far as he is concerned they are Magnus' army; not his. why should he care any more for them than anyone else?

obviously giving them some kind of defence is sensible (after all they would prepare themselves even if Tzeentch wasn't going to look out for them, and mechanically it makes the army better, because it prevents other armies from simly out doing them in their own niche), but it certainly shouldn't be as much as they are inclined to dish out.


I dunno, you'd think the forces of the Chaos God of magic, mystery and change would have defenses against enemy psychic powers, befuddling and clouding their minds or throwing up wards under which they can operate without distraction.

again a really good point (i'm just loving some of the dynamic thinking going on here). whilst i don't think that the TS should get much in the way of psychic defence i think your idea of befuddling and confusion should be intergral to that they have.

equally, that sort of thing could be directly worked into their 'offencive' abilities. what if they could add an extra die to the enemy psychic test and they had to pick the worst, or a double if they rolled it. and then when they fail the Tzeentch scorcer can cast that spell instead. they leech the power from the enemy. its only a very off the cuff example to a much broader concept, but i think one that could make the TS a lot more unique than other psychic armies.


My ideas will probably be ignored but I think the codex can mirror the current codex.

i actually read every post, but my posts become so mammoth with all the responding that i do that i try and cut down how many people i respond to. if i don't pick up on a post, its not because i haven't read it, and it might not even be because i don't think there is anything worth mentioning in it either (its just space).


Thousand Sons/Tzeench:

Elites: I believe the Thousand Sons should be able to take terminators and squads of sorcerers as elites.

here's a crazy idea why not make Terminators HS instead? give them some faily long range psychic powers (not all of which need be 'guns' but there's nothing stopping them from having something like a battle cannon), but make them chronically slow as well. being so hard, you could choose to put them at the back and simply fire over the top (like a type of vehicle) or you could put them up front in between the enemy and your front line troops as a sort of human sheild.

at the back they would perform, as i said, like a vehicle, except that you wouldn't be able to shoot the unit once and disable the weapon. and at the fron they would be a seriously off putting barrier to assault. but where ever you put them you'd better pick the right spot as you have little change of moving them afterwards.


Lastly, there should be “Tzeench devotee’s” who kinda behave like week Eldar seer-councils… providing buffs to nearby squads and capable of dishing a bit of firepower on their own.

again this touches on what i have said about the creativity of psychic powers. whilst i really like the idea of a seer-council i think we'd need to really bear in mind what the inclusion of such a unit would say about the meta-story. i don't think that any of the current codexes are perfect and there are things i would like to see done differently in all of them, and in the Eldar one it should be their approach to psychic powers. the Eldar as basically as 'good' as i gets in the 41st millennia. they might not be perfect in everyway, but their society is such that they are pretty selfless, and as such i think that they should not have Autarchs, but have seer-councils that only provide buffs for other units (rather than having a centralised 'hero' unit, they decentralise so that you never know where that final death blow will strike from). SM on the other hand are pretty self absorbed. each marine thinks they are the best thing since before sliced bread and they will likely be leading the chapter anytime soon (loyalists obviously somewhat less so that traitor). as such their psychic powers should only just (if ever) touch on helping others. they should be all about the enemy or the individual. after all its all about me!

if there were truely that kind of differentiation between races when it comes to psychic powers, sure there would be kicking and screaming from people who say 'yeah, but my Marines aren't that selfish', but ultimately i think it would better define between armies in background and playstyle.


Elites: World Eater’s should have figured out, by now, how to take down vehicles in hand-to hand combat.

perhaps they have known how to from the start, but Khorne wants skulls for his throne, so they don't waste their time on them.

(i actually agree that they should have some anti tank infantry, but that's as far as their anti-tank skills should go).

i look forward to reading you EC and DG ideas.


I have some ideas on how I would include 'daemons' in my army now. I could model up some combat servitors and robot mutants. I could do some failed experiments with the techno virus. There are tons of ways an IW player could go with this.

i like the sounds of those.

i agree that imagining the IW with a KoS seems a little counter intuative, but then perhaps the IW themselves would not see it as a Gift from Slaanesh, as much as a random Gift from Chaos. the fact that it is a KoS is by the by. as far as they are concerned its just a daemon sent by chaos to help them. however, like you i'd like to see more undivided daemons and daemons dedicated to lesser gods. it would give the undivided player more freedom to actually be undivided and make chaos seem bigger altogether.


ooo I know... automatic mind war with enemy psyker when said enemy psyker uses his power.

hmm, perhaps we'll not go down that root. i can imagine the scene at a gaming table when their Zoanthroap tries to do something and you tell them its head will automatically explode. :rolleyes:


Maybe [the Emperor's Children] could have an antitank ability for a psychic power that doesn't damage the tank, but tortures the crew?

i think that sounds like a great idea, and one i'd like to see developed further.

Rioghan Murchadha
09-02-2008, 18:29
Surely psychic ability is one of the things which the 5+ invulnerable save for the Mark of Tzeentch can represent? Not all psykers are powerful enough to manifest the battlefield powers which an HQ-choice Sorcerer can.

The invulnerable save is, I believe, supposed to represent the protection that Tzeentch offers his favorite little pawns who execute his convoluted schemes, not someone channelling latent psychic energy. "Squads dedicated to Tzeentch benefit from the arcane magical protection of their master."



I think you're making a bit too big a deal out of the fact that Tzeentchian Marines lose their 5+ invulnerable upon the death of the Icon Bearer.

Take it as the loss of their warp focus, which is necessary to amplify their psychic abilities to the level at which they gain a tabletop benefit.

It's really not that different from the Grey Knights, another famously psyker-only force. Your average Grey Knight is a psyker in the background, but doesn't use psychic powers on the tabletop. Their psychic abilities are rather represented through a range of squad-wide special abilities, such as The Aegis and The Shrouding.

Grey Knight Terminators can combine their psychic abilities to unleash the psychic power Holocaust, but only if their Brother-Captain is still alive. If he dies, the squad's ability to use its psychic power dies with him.
I could accept this from a typical psyker, or a latent group like the Grey Knights. I'm sorry though, it doesn't wash for a group that were accomplished sorcerers before the rubric, and had their power amplified by said spell. Why do they all of a sudden need a stick to channel their power through?


What, all of them? From 9 Legions completely different in battlefield tactics and organisation, not to mention in philosophical outlook?
Why not? Apparently berserkers will fight for any army, regardless of tactics and philosophical outlook.. Same with Noise Marines, etc. etc.



Other Legions have experienced veterans who specialise in infiltration? Thousand Sons just use sorcery, illusion and guile to achieve the same effect.
Perhaps, but like I said, it's rather short shrift for the Chosen devotees of the god of magic.

I'm not discounting anything you're saying, but all it really is, is an attempt to justify everything under the new codex. I've already said I can field the same army, it just doesn't 'feel' like the same army when it's played, and there is very little to differentiate it from any other chaos army out there now.

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-02-2008, 20:15
The invulnerable save is, I believe, supposed to represent the protection that Tzeentch offers his favorite little pawns who execute his convoluted schemes, not someone channelling latent psychic energy. "Squads dedicated to Tzeentch benefit from the arcane magical protection of their master."

You're right. There's no way that you could use counts as. There aren't people using the MoT to represent a Dark Apostle's Accursed Crozius save, or just a really powerful force field.


I could accept this from a typical psyker, or a latent group like the Grey Knights. I'm sorry though, it doesn't wash for a group that were accomplished sorcerers before the rubric, and had their power amplified by said spell. Why do they all of a sudden need a stick to channel their power through?

Honestly, do you really lose that many Icon Bearers or is this just the principle for you? I'm just curious. I don't lose an Icon Bearer till the squad is dead. If you must, think of the stick as a focus for the squad's power. If that bothers you that much, well, *****, you might need to not use Termies and such.


Why not? Apparently berserkers will fight for any army, regardless of tactics and philosophical outlook.. Same with Noise Marines, etc. etc.

Yeah, because some Cult Troops fight as mercenaries means that all of them do. Honestly, it's true!


Perhaps, but like I said, it's rather short shrift for the Chosen devotees of the god of magic.

I'm not discounting anything you're saying, but all it really is, is an attempt to justify everything under the new codex. I've already said I can field the same army, it just doesn't 'feel' like the same army when it's played, and there is very little to differentiate it from any other chaos army out there now.

The problem is that you're comparing it to what other people do. I've been over this before. Why does it matter so much that the powergaming cheesemonger Night Lords player up the block uses twin Lash Princes, Vindicators and Defilers? It doesn't. He may do it, but just because he does and it violates your idea of the fluff doesn't mean that he (as a different being than yourself, gifted with free will etc.) should affect your army in any way. Honestly, I'm not sure why everyone's so worked up over what 'other people' do. The truth is, people have been raping the background to make cheesy, unrealistic, unfluffy armies for as long as this hobby's been around; they will continue to find ways to do so until the nth Edition when GW finally finds a way to balance this game properly.

At least, that's where I see this sentiment stemming from. People will be people.

Rioghan Murchadha
09-02-2008, 21:47
You're right. There's no way that you could use counts as. There aren't people using the MoT to represent a Dark Apostle's Accursed Crozius save, or just a really powerful force field.

If you read back a bit, I've mentioned at least twice, that I can use 'counts as' to field the same army I did under the 3.5 codex. Things just don't work quite the same.



Honestly, do you really lose that many Icon Bearers or is this just the principle for you? I'm just curious. I don't lose an Icon Bearer till the squad is dead. If you must, think of the stick as a focus for the squad's power. If that bothers you that much, well, *****, you might need to not use Termies and such.
Haven't lost one yet. It's a) the principle of the thing, and b) when 5th ed hits the streets, it's going to be much easier to lose them due to wound allocation before saves.


Yeah, because some Cult Troops fight as mercenaries means that all of them do. Honestly, it's true!
Put it this way... It's as logical an argument as DantesInferno saying that they shouldn't be a seperate cult because they all came from different legions initially. Or, to borrow a phrase... "Just because not all of them fight as mercenaries, doesn't mean some of them don't." ;)



The problem is that you're comparing it to what other people do. I've been over this before. Why does it matter so much that the powergaming cheesemonger Night Lords player up the block uses twin Lash Princes, Vindicators and Defilers? It doesn't. He may do it, but just because he does and it violates your idea of the fluff doesn't mean that he (as a different being than yourself, gifted with free will etc.) should affect your army in any way. Honestly, I'm not sure why everyone's so worked up over what 'other people' do. The truth is, people have been raping the background to make cheesy, unrealistic, unfluffy armies for as long as this hobby's been around; they will continue to find ways to do so until the nth Edition when GW finally finds a way to balance this game properly.

Nah.. All I'm saying is that I happened to like the background that GW gave for the Legion, and built an army around that. Now I'm annoyed that they haven't changed the background on said legion, but have hamstrung my ability to build a list based on THEIR background. I don't care what other people do with their armies. However, I don't see why there needs to be a seperate codex for BA, DA, BT, and Space Wolves, yet people apparently crap themselves over Legion players wanting the same treatment. I'd personally LOVE to see a legion list that wasn't simply 1 page of arbitrary restrictions and rules. It ain't likely to happen though..

DantesInferno
09-02-2008, 22:27
Put it this way... It's as logical an argument as DantesInferno saying that they shouldn't be a seperate cult because they all came from different legions initially. Or, to borrow a phrase... "Just because not all of them fight as mercenaries, doesn't mean some of them don't." ;)

That doesn't follow at all. I said that it didn't make sense for the Raptors to exclusively be a separate undivided cult. This is pretty obvious because the jump-packers all belonged to their Legions, and while it's possible that some jump-packers from the various legions banded together, it's pretty implausible to suggest that all Traitor Marines with a jump-pack would leave their respective legions to form their own group. And that's what the previous versions of Raptor background seemed to suggest.

The analogy you're trying to draw with the Cult Troops simply doesn't work.


Nah.. All I'm saying is that I happened to like the background that GW gave for the Legion, and built an army around that. Now I'm annoyed that they haven't changed the background on said legion, but have hamstrung my ability to build a list based on THEIR background.

But as far as I can tell, Thousand Sons players in particular can build much better background-based lists with the new Codex. There's the unfortunate loss of Rubric Terminators, but it's outweighed by the increased access to other Tzeentch-marked troops. No longer do you have to be bound by the rather baseless myth that M41 Thousand Sons armies only consist of Sorcerers and Rubrics.

Rioghan Murchadha
10-02-2008, 02:55
That doesn't follow at all. I said that it didn't make sense for the Raptors to exclusively be a separate undivided cult. This is pretty obvious because the jump-packers all belonged to their Legions, and while it's possible that some jump-packers from the various legions banded together, it's pretty implausible to suggest that all Traitor Marines with a jump-pack would leave their respective legions to form their own group. And that's what the previous versions of Raptor background seemed to suggest.

The analogy you're trying to draw with the Cult Troops simply doesn't work.

Look.. I didn't write the old fluff.. I didn't even say it was good.. It's just what was there..



But as far as I can tell, Thousand Sons players in particular can build much better background-based lists with the new Codex. There's the unfortunate loss of Rubric Terminators, but it's outweighed by the increased access to other Tzeentch-marked troops. No longer do you have to be bound by the rather baseless myth that M41 Thousand Sons armies only consist of Sorcerers and Rubrics.

We can build more competitive lists. Not the same thing. The only background it could be based on is Rogue Trader era, or stuff we come up with in our own mind. We also lost sorcerer chosen and posessed, gained a bunch of units that make little sense, AND it's not baseless myth, it's the only M41 fluff that GW has given us for the Thousand Sons. It's official... What you come up with in the privacy of your own mind is not. The new codex does nothing to contradict the background in the previous codex that gave us 1ksons = Rubrics or Sorcerers. It simply allows us to take a bunch of other units with flags showing how much they love Tzeentch. Hell, the troop choice is even CALLED Thousand Sons, leading us to believe that all other choices are not.

*ARSE*
10-02-2008, 03:24
There's a guy on EC.net writing his own EC codex.

Regards ....

DantesInferno
10-02-2008, 03:40
Look.. I didn't write the old fluff.. I didn't even say it was good.. It's just what was there..

You said the change in background on the Raptors "bugged" you. I responded by saying it was an improvement that was in line with common sense.



We can build more competitive lists. Not the same thing. The only background it could be based on is Rogue Trader era, or stuff we come up with in our own mind. We also lost sorcerer chosen and posessed, gained a bunch of units that make little sense, AND it's not baseless myth, it's the only M41 fluff that GW has given us for the Thousand Sons. It's official... What you come up with in the privacy of your own mind is not. The new codex does nothing to contradict the background in the previous codex that gave us 1ksons = Rubrics or Sorcerers.

There's no background in the previous Codex, or any other previous source on the Thousand Sons, which says that the legion contains exclusively Rubrics and Sorcerers in M41. It's just a misconception which was promoted by the rules restrictions the previous Codex had in place (which didn't have any mechanism for non-Rubric Tzeentchian Marines), and has no legitimate basis in the background at all.

On the other hand:
We know that all the other Traitor Legions have been recruiting new members in the Eye since the Heresy.
We know that Fabius Bile has examined Thousand Son gene-seed (Heroes & Villains: Fabius Bile).
We know the leaders of the Thousand Sons have always been motivated to do whatever it takes to save their Legion and ensure its prosperity (Magnus on Prospero, Ahriman with his Rubric).
We know that the Thousand Sons are still motivated to continue their Long War against the Imperium.

If you add all this together, it's pretty straightforwardly clear that the Thousand Sons are recruiting new members in the Eye, just like all the other Traitor Legions.


It simply allows us to take a bunch of other units with flags showing how much they love Tzeentch.

Wow, if you call Icons "flags" it really helps get your point across! By giving them a derogatory label you can make them seem insignificant! :rolleyes:

Why not call Marks of Chaos "tattoos".......


Hell, the troop choice is even CALLED Thousand Sons, leading us to believe that all other choices are not.

What about the HQ-choice Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch? They're OK in a Thousand Son army, aren't they? Unfortunately they don't have "Thousand Son" in the name of the unit, but everyone seems to manage regardless. Obviously the Rubrics aren't the only things which can be taken in a Thousand Son list.

UncleCrazy
10-02-2008, 03:43
The 2nd Ed Chaos Codex let 1k sons have up to 3 heavy weapons per squad, by the way. (page 93 by the way) And also DanteInferno is right all the fluff in the Chaos Codeci up to 3.5(the damnible codex) said that the legions were either making/recruiting new memebers to fill in for dead/destroyed memebers.

AdmiralDick
10-02-2008, 06:41
Okay guys, much as it is well within the remit of this thread to discuss the background of a given Legion so as to further an understanding of how best to represent that Legion in rules, i think we are just covering the same ground with the whole Thousand Sons thing and it doesn't really seem to be take the discussion forward any.

it seems pretty clear to me that both sides of this debate have their own interpretations of the background and are unwilling to shift on that one (but then why should they). its important to remember that background is not a finite thing. it can change.

perhaps we can move on to actually how you would represent TS in the rulers, rather than why. remember there are no right and wrong answers here, because we are not looking for anything definite, just to hear waht people have to say.

Rioghan Murchadha
10-02-2008, 07:27
perhaps we can move on to actually how you would represent TS in the rulers, rather than why. remember there are no right and wrong answers here, because we are not looking for anything definite, just to hear waht people have to say.

For myself, very simple fix. Create a 'cult mark' upgrade.. call it the.. oh I dunno.. Rubric Sign if you will... Limit it to units where it makes sense.. Marines, Termis, Havocs, Chosen. Chosen with it become sorcerers, other models become rubric.. get S&P, increased invuln save etc. This would allow for both pre, and post-rubric armies, as well as armies that wanted to showcase new recruits to the legion, but would also allow those of us that want to field a pure rubric/sorc force to do so. (My army is intended to represent Ahriman's exiled cabal of sorcerers (the chosen), and the Rubrics they brought with them into exile.)

Captain Micha
10-02-2008, 20:51
with the current batch of rumours i suspect that the largest portion of daemon players will be having a Slaanesh/Nurgle mixed force (which is no good thing in my mind). but that's another discussion for another time."

Well, if it helps I was going to have that force during the previous codex. That others are doing it, is kinda taking the appeal away. Though I think if I do the converting right for the new daemonettes being "special" disease carriers I think it might work out.

"this is one of the things i've found hardest to come to terms with in the design of 40K. there is enormous scope as to what psychic powers can be, and jumped up guns is probably the least common type in the background. and yet the vast majority of psychic powers in the game as just other types of gun.

it really pains me to see Tzeentchen abilities boiled down to 'they can shoot', because that is a real backwards step to my mind. i totally agree that Tzeentchen fire power should be intrinsically connected to their psychic powers, but that their psychic powers are all about heavy fire power is frankly ridiculous and adds nothing to the game or their background (and this isn't an attack on you Captain Micha, because this is something that GW have been pushing for a long time and i don't think its entirely what you were getting at, but the notion really gets my hackles up)."

No offense taken, I'm just going off of what I've read psykers being capable of in the books and most of that is well, blatent offensive power. Mostly telekinesis mind you but mostly offense all the same. (at least when it comes to humans on both sides anyway) I think that's probably the most obvious way a human mind works is in terms of utilizing such a great power as a weapon rather than a tool to complete an objective. Given that they are Tzeencthian perhaps they could be a healthy mix of the two.

"hmm, perhaps we'll not go down that root. i can imagine the scene at a gaming table when their Zoanthroap tries to do something and you tell them its head will automatically explode."

Well not automatic in the sense of automatic success but, that you automatically start the leadership roll offs.

Varath- Lord Impaler
10-02-2008, 22:55
well, i'm afraid i disagree with you here. they do not represent both good and evil. they are not good. they are not even neutral. Slaanesh is not a god of love.


Isnt he?

Is not love the extreme form of want? An excess of want, you might say.

Im keeping the flag flying :P



the 40K universe is fictional and is a world of absolute morals (whether one believes there are such things in the real world or not). there are such things as bad guys, if not not good guys, and not everything is relative in the game universe.

Huh? Every race has a good side and a bad side. Even the Necrons have a tragic reason why they do what they do.

The only beings in the entire fluff that i would call 'evil' are the Ctan, simply because they have no real reason to do what they do. They are the counterparts to the chaos gods, embodying everything that is physically real in the universe, while the chaos gods rule emotion and belief.


well, i wasn't really arguing about the relative value of one worshiper in comparison to many. i was saying that Slaanesh is not a god of decay or any other concept, no matter how many people think he is. that is another god, if there is such a thing. its like Chaos gods have resonant frequencies with emotions. like tuning into a radio station, what adds to Slaanesh is only sickly pleasure, however he tricks me into tuning into it.


Of course not, because people worship an idol, they worship an ideal of Slaanesh which is represented by another deity.

Nurgle is known as Nurgleth, Nyrglychn, the crow god, and hundreds of other names. But they are all indicative of the same being.

And no, Slaanesh is not only sickly pleasure. It is pleasure on the whole, both wholesome and unwholesome.

Just as Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, Slaanesh cares not how the pleasure is obtained, just that it is felt.



no, it is madness and discruction, because as i said previously chaos is the very opposite of order. inspite of all the brief pattern-like structure that might appear (such as the gods, daemons and so on), chaos and the warp is ultimately nihilistic. madness and destruction are the ultimate expression of choas in both mind and body/physics.


The name of the gods as 'chaos' isnt very misleading. Its just a word which has negative connotations.

Chaos could also be taken to mean individuality. Where the forces of order have hundreds of men, women and children, all carbon copies of each other. The forces of disorder have individual warriors with their own minds, bodies and beliefs.

It is chaos because it is a lack of order and has no rhymes or rythems. But this in itself does not make it evil.



to suggest anything else is counter intuative. the gods do want to harm you, the other gods and even themselves (although they are to blind to notice it). they rale against reality and cannot be sated.

Why would they want to harm you when your belief is what feeds them?

What feeds them is souls, and souls are gained through worship and conversion. This means that the gods have no reason to kill a worshipper or to harm him at all unless he does something which displeases them.

They cannot be satiated because the souls of the living feed them, and the living are petty and worthless on their own.


no. but the erratic nature of the attacks speaks volumes about the direction that Khorne drives people in.

it seems that we're probably reaching a stale mate with this discussion as we are covering the same ground. however, i think that in itself i an important factor in the overall discussion. there is obviously plenty of background to work with and discuss for Khorne (and probably all the other gods), but is there enough on the undivided legions. my feeling is probably not.

Yes, but we arent going to get anywhere with the background of the legions if we shoe horn them into gross generalisations like "All Alpha legionairres can infiltrate"

Thats just stupid. Some Alpha legionairres will prefer a different kind of attack.

Oh, sorry for the length between posts, just got my modem replaced after lightning destroyed my old one AND my router :(

incarna
11-02-2008, 14:49
Well, there were some responses to my first idea post so I’ll lay out some of my other ideas.

Emperor’s Children/Slaanesh:

These ideas may be considered a little “out of the park”.

HQ: I believe there should be a faction-specific Greater Demon. I thought the idea of combat drugs was brilliant and should be reintroduced for the Lord/Demon Prince. I believe there should be a “Cult of Slanesh Priest” who can be taken as an HQ as well… the “cult of Slanesh Priest” can purchase a limo as a transport for his retinue (much like the old genestealer cults) and can purchase combat drugs as well… these drugs would make the squad fearless but slow and purposeful.

Troops: Of course standard Noise Marines and demons would be in this category. Additionally I believe there should be “mixed” squads of “Cultists of Slanesh” who behave like fearless slow and purposeful IG conscripts who must purchase combat drugs. These squads should be lead by 1-3 demonette’s… who have seduced the cultists with their decadent yet lethal allure.

Elites: Emperor’s Children terminators should be here as well as chosen. I think there should be an immobile squad consisting of male and female models. This immobile squad begins a “ritual” resulting in the sacrifice of one member of the squad per round that provides Sister of Battle-like buffs to squads on the table. Obviously this ritual is basically a lethal orgy but I think it can be explained in a less explicit way.

Fast Attack: Mounted demonette’s and Emperors Children Bikers must go here. I think Emperor’s Children would have DEFINITELT acquired jump packs for the adrenaline rush so “EC Raptors” should go here too. I believe some EC have probably O.D.d on some of the demonic drugs they’ve been taken so some EC who behave kinda like hard-core Arco Flagellants should be in this slot as well. Fearless squads of “Cultists of Slanesh” mounted in limos but who are slow and purposeful should also be here… just to be clear, the whole limo idea is that Slaneish is basically pumping his cultists full of drugs, loading them up in party Limo’s for an evening of decadence only to drop them off in the middle of a battlefield. The cultists are so drugged up they don’t even care… maybe every round the Cultists even have to take leadership tests or act as though pinned as they descend into drug-induced sexual perversion… during this round, however, perhaps this could result in a buff being applied to another squad on the table.

Heavy Support: Havoc squads of Noise Marines should be here. The effects of combat drugs on a Dreadnaught should also be illustrated here. A “Cult of Slanesh” ‘Havoc’ squad with BS of 2 but with VERY cheap lascannons, rocket launchers, auto cannon’s etc. should be here. Every weapon within the squad automatically has the “gets hot” rule to represent doped up cultists just mishandling ammunition and killing themselves and each other. This squad MUST also fire every round. If there is no enemy target within line of sight than they turn the guns on one of your own squads. This, of course, represents a bunch of nut-jobs on drugs with guns just going crazy with their awesome equipment.

Like I said, I think some of those idea’s are probably a little “out of the park” but I always thought the decadence of Slanesh should be represented much more significantly within the army… plus, he’s my favorite dark god :). The Emperor’s Children in NO way view their cultists as “fellow combatants”, they view them as weapons to be sacrificed en-masse in the name of their decadent god.

Nurgle/Death Guard to come soon.

Ddraiglais
11-02-2008, 15:10
Here's a thought for cultists on drugs. You could roll a d6. On certain rolls they don't move or shoot because they're so high. On other rolls they get FNP (like the guy on dust that takes 15 bullets and keeps coming). You could have other results like increased str. Make it random though. You don't know if the unit will be worthless or very powerful.

incarna
11-02-2008, 15:47
Death Guard/Nurgle:

HQ: Faction-specific Greater Demon, Demon Prince, Lord, usual stuff… “Cult of Nurgle Priest” who is a psycher who can apply debuffs to enemy units (festering boils causing the squad to move as if in difficult terrain, swarms of locusts causing all hits to be re-rolled in the shooting phase, pneumonia that takes away 1 attack in an assault to a minimum of 1, etc.)

Troops: Plague Marines go here obviously. Of course plague zombies go here as well. “Cultists of Nurgle” who are exactly like IG conscripts go here as well except they are fearless and carry blades fetid with their own blood (rending against infantry only, not effective against vehicles). Don’t forget Nurglings go here as well.

Elites: Plague Marine Terminators and Chosen go here. A mid-grade Nugle demon should go here… something that behaves much like Ogryns. A “Cult of Nurgle Devotee” should go here which work like stronger, more lethal cultists but who are capable of applying a single psychic debuff similar to the priest mentioned above.

Fast Attack: “Plague Flies”… function exactly like Necron Scarabs. I always though Nurgle should have “Plague Beasts” which are basically just infected dogs who move like beasts and have 2 attacks each… POSSIBLY with rending as their festering jowls inflict horrific contagion as they tear into their victims.

Heavy Support: Death Guard Havocs go here. Nugle Dreadnaughts should have something special as well (perhaps armor values increased by 1 all around). An ordinance weapon that hurls plague-infected meat at the enemy should be here too. The splatter of decomposing bodies showers everything beneath a large blast marker with a strength of 2 (rending) and pinning.

Those are my ideas.

Sons of Russ
11-02-2008, 16:15
Personally, as long as Emperor's Children get their sonics back for their specialist units [mainly terminators and bikes] I will be very happy.

Call me weird, but I prefer my termies shredding stuff with fire rather than blade....

Hoping they'll release an Apocalypse data sheet or a WD article in the interim for the 4 legions as it looks to be a while before we see these books....

AdmiralDick
14-02-2008, 22:02
well, i'm off for only a week and it looks like this conversation has all but died? what happend guys; there's so much more to be said!


There's a guy on EC.net writing his own EC codex.

i didn't get a chance to look at it (http://forum.emperorschildren.net/viewtopic.php?t=1708) when you first posted, but have checked it out since you posted it in a seperate thread.

its got a lot of cool ideas (some i'll touch on a bit later) but i think the thing that sticks out most about the list to me is that it is simply basic Chaos Space Marine list with a 'Mark of Slaanesh' on each unit (and units that can't take the mark are cut out). to me, this makes the list a little flat and dissappointing. what can it do that a non-slaaneshi marked army can't do?

because it starts with the armylist, rather than the individual units, the Mark of Slaanesh has to be something that doesn't really effect the dynamic of the army (lest it messes up the way the army works). i think if i were going to write a codex i would take it right down to its basics and build it up from there, so that the final army, whilst containing the same basic blocks as a regular CSM army, would ultimately be something more radically different.


For myself, very simple fix. Create a 'cult mark' upgrade.. call it the.. oh I dunno.. Rubric Sign if you will

its a clever enough idea, when used in the right context (i.e. an already Thousand Sons based army list rather than a generic list), however it would be very easy to take such a mark out of context and thus force the designer to reduce the effectiveness of the mark to near meaningless levels. you would then end up with the situation that i talked about before, and the one that Varath, DantesInferno and others have been dead against (introducing an armylist that is near identicle to a current one, simply so that you can say your TS are different from other marines). whilst i certainly don't agree with there conclusion, which seems to be that we should give up on any hope of creating anything new, i can totally agree that it is not a situation i would want to see the game in.

do you think simply giving all the marines in a basic CSM army would be enough to make it really TS and worthwhile? if not, what else would you change about them? if you had to sum up the play style the army should have in 3 words what would they be?


I think if I do the converting right for the new daemonettes being "special" disease carriers I think it might work out.

i think that 'multiple marks' is something Chaos armies have lacked from the start (both 40k and fantasy). there ought to be more options (and background) to take an army that was dedicated to two or maybe three of the gods.

i would be very interested in seeing your army at the end. particularly if you managed to blend the two factions together, taking slaaneshinurgle rather than Slaanesh and Nurgle.


Yes, but we arent going to get anywhere with the background of the legions if we shoe horn them into gross generalisations like "All Alpha legionairres can infiltrate"

Thats just stupid. Some Alpha legionairres will prefer a different kind of attack.

:p well that doesn't entirely surprise me considering your stance on the nature of the Chaos Gods.

and to a point i agree. nevertheless i think it important to realise that saying "All Alpha Legion marines infiltrate" will lead us somewhere bad, but saying "All Alpha Legion marines can do anything any other Legion/Chapter can" leads us no where at all, and is just as much of a generalisation.

a Legion list if it exists at all should be a balance point between allowing the user the chance to specialise in a fashion that is not available to them in the generic codex, but does not remove all elements of flexibility when it comes to creating an army list. your own ideas of the WE are a clear example of this; you feel that there should be different forms of Bezerkers and Blood Preists, which absolutely takes the WE away from the current codex in terms of specialism. (obviously different players will have different tastes as to where on the spectrum this middle point lies, but we should try to find the balance where most players opinion falls).

as i've suggested before, i believe that a Legion army list that is not sufficiantly different (read stylised/specialist) from the basic army list, is not worth writing nor reading.


I believe there should be a “Cult of Slanesh Priest” who can be taken as an HQ as well

and what do you see as being the purpose of this Slaaneshi Priest? how will he differ from the current HQ choices availible? will he be an actual 'preist' type character or will he really be a scorcerer? how would you represent the purpose of the characters rank (if he really is a preist what will make him preistly?)


This immobile squad begins a “ritual” resulting in the sacrifice of one member of the squad per round that provides Sister of Battle-like buffs to squads on the table. Obviously this ritual is basically a lethal orgy but I think it can be explained in a less explicit way.

i really like the sound of this, although i've already laid out my feelings on Chaos units helping each other out, so i might pick a different end effect, but the basic principle is brilliant.


I believe some EC have probably O.D.d on some of the demonic drugs they’ve been taken so some EC who behave kinda like hard-core Arco Flagellants should be in this slot as well.

i quite like the sound of this unit too. the theme's a little iffy, but it certainly opens up the possibility of a Legion-unique army.


just to be clear, the whole limo idea is that Slaneish is basically pumping his cultists full of drugs, loading them up in party Limo’s for an evening of decadence only to drop them off in the middle of a battlefield. The cultists are so drugged up they don’t even care

top marks for creativity so far. you've had some really clever and inspired ideas. however, i think the cultists may have missed the mark. even if the idea of drug abuse in the game wasn't going to go down with the company like a cup of cold sick, i'd question why include the cultists? what do they add to the force other than cheap fodder, which in a CSM army other than WB and DG is exactly the sort of thing they don't need?

i totally get that in the books CSM are always followed around by a massive horde of... well... things. but the same is basically true of loyalist SM (its just that their rabble is better organised and is called the IG) and yet they are two seperate armies. i personally don't think that 40k is the place to show CSM working with their LatD buddies. its simply too small an arena. Epic and Armageddon are the perfect places for such unholy alliences, but in 40k CSM need to rely on their CSM cronies.


A “Cult of Nurgle Devotee” should go here which work like stronger, more lethal cultists but who are capable of applying a single psychic debuff similar to the priest mentioned above.

i quite like this idea (although again i'm not sold on the cultists). but i do like the idea of a unit that is like a restricted and yet more powerful version of a sorcerer.


Those are my ideas.

and very good they are too. well worth reading. thanks for taking the time to show them to us.

----

right, and now for a couple of my own lines of questioning (as no one seemed to want to entertain my ideas of making special HS termies or 'human' retainer units, amoungst others).

I) Special Characters reading through apaosha's EC army list i was really pleased to see a return of the unfortunately named Doom Rider with quite a cool new spin on him, and it led me to start thinking; what special characters should each Legion have? i liked the inclusion in apaosha's list of Zarakynel, the FW greater daemon, it added a good level of variety to the selection. but could other (perhaps even undivided) legions contain special character greater daemons? should characters from the Horus Heresy reappear in these lists (most of the current CSM special characters are really only bit part players, even if they were in the there with the rest of them)? if so, how should they have moved on, becoming more 'depraved' over time?

II) Culture one of the biggest problems i have with seeing the SMs (or in fact many parts of the 40k universe) is that their cultures lack any real depth of character at all. they often feel like they were invented on the spot rather than grown over time. currently the majority of CSM Legions have a complete vacuum when it comes to culture, so perhaps now is the time to put some greater thought into it. were the WE more 'classical' like the Blood Angels and Ultramarines? were the 'Lunar Wolves' more feral (Norse even) like the Space Wolves? should any of the other legions recieve a more 'unique' cultural frame work.

i have never been a fan of the skull and red bat-wing thing that the Night Lords have going on, its fairly shallow and meaning less, but could they have a different spin on a similar theme. i was thinking it might be quite cool to see their home planet's culture as being much more similar to that of Haiti and the classic imagery of Voodoo. the allusons between Night Haunter and "Papa Doc", the despotic ruler of Haiti in the 50s and 60s, needs no further explaination. both cultures hinged (at the time) on fear and superstition to keep the population in order. and it also plays in nicely with the nods towards Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness, set in the Congo, an ancestral home of Voodoo beliefs. the Legions scorcerers could be more like Houngans (Voodoo priests) and the models themeselves could have a more cultural feel being all albino-afros bedecked with totems and trophies, as much to terrify those that see them as to win favour with the Chaos Gods.

another 'culture' that i was giving some thought to was the Death Gaurd, with a frankly bizarre collection of names occuring there seems to be nothing that really ties them together as a family or culture. so i tried to think of things that they could use as a frame. obviously the ancient middle-easter god Nergal (whom Nurgle is vaguely based on) is one such starting point. this pull in quite nicely with the image of Mortarion as the 'angle of death' as the concept of angelic beings as we understand them flows from that same culture (although the actual 'Angel of Death' is a rather more complex synthesis of ideas including erroneous greek inclusions).

from the other end of time i tried to think of what life on Barbarus would force people to look like, the image that came to mind was something of a mix between the survival suits that the Freman wear in dune, the Tusken Raiders and the Double page picture that Kevin O'Neill did for the League of Extraodinary Gentlemen that showed the various people who lived on mars in full gear. all of which stem almost entirely from middle-eastern culture and stories like Lawrence of Arabia. even the name Dusk Raiders (the Legions original name) evokes ideas of almost desert like appearence to me. obviously there should be plenty of other influences in there too (particularly cordyceps and flukes in my opinion, look them up on google if you don't know what they are, its worth it), but should they be vaguley middle eastern in appearence. choosing there armour for its survivability in extreme conditions (and ease of fitting in long beards)?

III) Family Values i also want to hear more (and see more) about the familial relationships between the Primarchs and by extension their Legions. did Horus and Guilliman have a mutual respect for their tactical flexiblity? did Guilliman look up to his big brother for his more pragmatic and thus relaxed approach to tactics? did Russ and Horus get on, for their rough and ready attitudes? did el'Johnson feel that he had more incommon with Curze and Mortarion, who both were 'outsiders', monsters even, on their home worlds? did Perturabo and Ferrus Manus share a love of things technical? did the Sanguinius and Fulgrim have more in common than either cared to admit with how they regarded themselves (i.e. pretty much better than everyone else and a clear favourit)? and does any of this effect the way a Legions codex should be taken?

Captain Micha
18-02-2008, 22:00
I'm just hoping that the new daemonettes will have a point to exist *L* It might take some one of Golden Demon standard though to make them look anything resembling right. (even if done to be nurgly...)

Well they did go over some of that in the Horus Heresy novels. Horus and Sangy for example were really close, as was Dorn and Horus, while the hairbow Gullible and Horus were barely on speaking terms.

The Song of Spears
19-02-2008, 14:39
III) Family Values i also want to hear more (and see more) about the familial relationships between the Primarchs and by extension their Legions. did Horus and Guilliman have a mutual respect for their tactical flexiblity? did Guilliman look up to his big brother for his more pragmatic and thus relaxed approach to tactics? did Russ and Horus get on, for their rough and ready attitudes? did el'Johnson feel that he had more incommon with Curze and Mortarion, who both were 'outsiders', monsters even, on their home worlds? did Perturabo and Ferrus Manus share a love of things technical? did the Sanguinius and Fulgrim have more in common than either cared to admit with how they regarded themselves (i.e. pretty much better than everyone else and a clear favourit)? and does any of this effect the way a Legions codex should be taken?

I have about as much compiled fluff as any 40k fan can get. From stacks of WDs to many editions of Codexes and finally the published BL stuff like the Liber Chaotica and Index Astartes and such.

In all that i have read I have picked up on some things i have interpreted personally thus:
When looking for the primarchs and finding them for the first time, Horus was often involved in many of their lives. And one they were given a legion and introduced to the others, they would often interact at a variety of events. Between Horus and all the primarchs, its seems very much everyone respected him, some more than others such as Alpharius. But there are no detailed events whatsoever.

As far as Primarchs and other Primarchs, they did not match up as you put it. Often there would be many Primarchs at a victory celebration and often verbal and sometimes physical fights would break out between the guys who battle philosophy's did not match. There are no records of buddy buddy relationships between individuals who had like legions such as Perturabo and Ferrus Manus.

However, let me state on a personal note, that in all the tons, and i mean tons, of fluff i have read. The Primarchs were very much 'human'. They had egos, tempers, personal goals and ideals and were given a legion of warriors built of their flesh and sent out all on their own quite often to wage war. So I would think there were often time when they would have to fight a battle or two with another legion whose Primarch was present and there would be many times where they would get along quite well. But no best friends.

These guys are the alpha wolves of the most powerful 'wolf packs' in the universe. And so i think this distance in the theatre of war and their own capability's kept them from becoming any closer than battle brothers.

Also this is all in the records of the Crusade and the wars that surrounded in including the heresy. How many of you write down your daily events with your best buds? I get together with my friends every weekend, but i never journal out what we did and who was present.

So in all likeliness there could be much more to these guys, as i believe there is much more to each space marine. But it has not been chronicled.




II) Culture one of the biggest problems i have with seeing the SMs (or in fact many parts of the 40k universe) is that their cultures lack any real depth of character at all. they often feel like they were invented on the spot rather than grown over time. currently the majority of CSM Legions have a complete vacuum when it comes to culture, so perhaps now is the time to put some greater thought into it.
...
...


Well, I will defend the fact that we are talking about marines here, you know, soldiers. ;)

In the events detailing out the Iraq war, you don't hear much if anything at all about the culture of each unit of marines stationed there. Sure there might be tidbits, but no real depth.

Also, we are getting our "information" from a galactic CNN run by a very very fascist oligarchy.

I have my own conjectures about what marines do in their free time or when they get leave, but thats another discussion...

Fulgrim's Gimp
19-02-2008, 19:47
Admiral Dick and the rest maybe we need to start with an appraisal and a firm consensus of what a Legionaire is and what differentiates them from the loyalists and also Chaos Renegades. I would think a baseline needs to be met from which all legions can spring while maintaining a relative simplicity in design.

My views on the above are that Legionaires while not being exclusively from the time of the Heresy would be so old compared to modern SM's that they make the blood angels commander Dante look like a scout. How do we reflect that in the game ?

Cult Legions for example I would think are totally sworn to their gods and that to be evident in all choices, so no Khorne sorcerors and the list would represent a halfway point between daemon and marine.

Also with regards to culture , I had a thought about the difficulty in designing anything for the Alpha Legion. The most striking thing for them is the lack of centralised control. Perhaps they should have no HQ choices, but, instead a two wound champion widely available ?

For the idea of family between the Primarchs I would reflect this by having one legion per army and no mixing.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
19-02-2008, 20:33
As Apocalypse Datasheets IMO. it is one of the best choices. simple and clean.

Codices? well, maybe - but i dont want to wait an eternity to get my hands on them :/

AdmiralDick
19-02-2008, 20:35
Datasheets is a cool idea (although if the single or double page in the previous codex wasn't enough for most people, not sure how that would go down). what would you put on the datasheets for each legion?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
19-02-2008, 21:12
Datasheets is a cool idea (although if the single or double page in the previous codex wasn't enough for most people, not sure how that would go down). what would you put on the datasheets for each legion?

other Cult units for dedicated legion.

special characters for undivided legion and maybe one/two special unit. some special rules to reflect their perks [for few units].

thebaz
20-02-2008, 04:41
Iron Warriors deffinately need a Servo-Arm/Harness option that could also count as a Daemon Weapon, Bionics, and the Bassie back would be nice

Alpha Legion needs their cultists. that is a must

Word Bearers get the Dark Apostle with the fun little toys aka Corrupted Crozius(which would count as a daemon weapon)

Night Lords Raptors should get back Hit and Run, and the Bikes should get Furious assault

Thousand Sons need the AP 3 of their bolters backed down to 4

World Eaters arent that bad at the moment but they should deffinately be able to upgrade at least 2 Berzerkers to have Chain-axes that count as Chainfists

Deathguard. Something that reflects their decaying vehicles. like if enemy models are within 6" of a vehicle with a mark of nurgle then each model is attacked by a swarm of flies or a plague of pestilence. Attacks are made with WS 1 S 2

Emperors Children need their ability to take Sonic Weapons on various different troops


Also It would be a nice change that instead of eliminating the Icons, that each Legion has their own special Icon.

IW-Seige Specialists
AL -Infiltrators
NL-Stealth Adepts Skill or something, or Fleet of Foot
WB -not exactly what would be a good one for them cuz u cant have every unit having the Demagogue ability

The Chaos devoted armies dont really need changes to Marks imo

Those are my thoughts, feel free to tare them to shreds

Varath- Lord Impaler
20-02-2008, 05:10
well that doesn't entirely surprise me considering your stance on the nature of the Chaos Gods.

Your just too much of stuffed shirt to realise the power of the chaos gods. Come with me and i will show you. MWhahahahahahahaa!!!!

...i mean..

um...*cough*



and to a point i agree. nevertheless i think it important to realise that saying "All Alpha Legion marines infiltrate" will lead us somewhere bad, but saying "All Alpha Legion marines can do anything any other Legion/Chapter can" leads us no where at all, and is just as much of a generalisation.

a Legion list if it exists at all should be a balance point between allowing the user the chance to specialise in a fashion that is not available to them in the generic codex, but does not remove all elements of flexibility when it comes to creating an army list. your own ideas of the WE are a clear example of this; you feel that there should be different forms of Bezerkers and Blood Preists, which absolutely takes the WE away from the current codex in terms of specialism. (obviously different players will have different tastes as to where on the spectrum this middle point lies, but we should try to find the balance where most players opinion falls).

but thats the thing though, Alpha legion marines CAN do anything any other legion can, they just dont do it the same way.

I think Alpha legion is a bad example in itself since they are, in their nature, highly tactical.

Compare Word bearers to Iron Warriors.

These are 2 totally destinct armies and martial cultures valuing different things, with totally different names (Dark Apostle=Warsmith)

But the thing is that although they play radically differently and fight differenly, both are made from the same codex and can be made very well.

An Iron warriors army using Lord with Powerfist(single Lord, his Paranoia wouldnt lead him to have many 'trusted lieutenants') With Sappers (Chosen), Chosen bodyguard (Chosen Termies), Dreadnaught, Chaos marines with mid ranged support weapons, Chaos marines with close combat weapons and Icon of Khorne (fluffy for the Iron warriors), Raptors, Vindicator, Oblits and Havocs.

That is a powerful Mid ranged army which has a strong firebase and a good counter attack element.


A Word bearers army with a Sorceror with Doom bolt, Gift of Chaos and the mark of Tzeentch (Dark Apostle), Greater Daemon, Chosen Terminators (bodyguard), Possessed, Chosen, Marines with Close ranged assault weapons like flamers and meltas (fanatics), daemons, Bikers, Raptors, CC defilers, land Raider for the Apostle and the Terminators.

This is a radically different army, no? It has the Apostle and his Cronies leading from his throne (i WOULD put a model of him on a throne at the top of the land raider) and the fanatics and daemons around him.

These 2 armies are totally different, play totally differently, but are both taken from the same list.

Alpha legion may use lots of Chosen and Chaos marines of all sorts, but again, its from the same list.

This isnt without using any counts as, yet, which can make them much more different than before. If heard a great idea of using the rules for Cult Marines for the powerful daemons packs.



as i've suggested before, i believe that a Legion army list that is not sufficiantly different (read stylised/specialist) from the basic army list, is not worth writing nor reading.

But the undivided legions ARE quite similar, and the way you collect, convert and play your army will reinforce the differences.

Cult legions, if you wanted to really make them what they are, need a new codex, if only for the art and background.

But even that isnt very necessary. Players with imagination and skill can make their armies exactly how they want them.

For Imagination feeds chaos, and a follower of chaos needs to know how to imagine.

AdmiralDick
26-02-2008, 17:48
but thats the thing though, Alpha legion marines CAN do anything any other legion can, they just dont do it the same way.

so Alpha Legion can do anything anyone else can, but they do it in there own distinct fashion? is that not the same as doing a different thing?

i'm not particularly interested creating a list that stops their armies from doing the things that they would expect it to be able to do, however i do want a list that CAN be used to show the Alpha Legion doing the things others do, but in the particularly Alpha Legion fashion.


I think Alpha legion is a bad example in itself since they are, in their nature, highly tactical.

well i would probably take issue with that. there is no strong indication from the Codexes or otherwise that the Alpha Legion are as tactically flexible as the Black Legion or Ultramarines. infact their fractious and subversive nature would rather imply that they would find it difficult to rely on massed infantry attack without the majority of that infantry being local cultist and rebels. i can't imagine they can rely on much in the way of heavy support either (not saying they don't have it, but it won't follow them round closely meaning it will usually turn up late). and finally and most crucially the Alpha Legion's emblem is of the many headed Hydra because they are noted for their pincer manauvers in which they trap their enemies (unlike the Black Legion who are noted for their 'brush aside and stab' attacks).

you are right to say that not all Alpha Legion troops fight all the time with such tactics, but that does not mean that the average Alpha Legionaire does not fight like that nor deserve rules for actually representing that, rather than forcing relatively inflexible rules to their limits.


Compare Word bearers to Iron Warriors.

These are 2 totally destinct armies and martial cultures valuing different things, with totally different names (Dark Apostle=Warsmith)

But the thing is that although they play radically differently and fight differenly, both are made from the same codex and can be made very well.

well i've already given my opinons on that in this thread. the current codex is designed to represent an generic, middle-ground chapter, and not one of the themes that the Undivided Legions follow. whilst you can just a about muddle an army that looks a bit like one of the Undivided Legions it is not a 'very' good representation, merely sufficiant, because there is infinitely so much more that could be done to make the army more like the 'stereotype' of that Legion.


An Iron warriors army using Lord with Powerfist(single Lord, his Paranoia wouldnt lead him to have many 'trusted lieutenants') With Sappers (Chosen), Chosen bodyguard (Chosen Termies), Dreadnaught, Chaos marines with mid ranged support weapons,

simply renaming units doesn't make their in game effect more like the thing you've renamed them to. Chosen will not suddenly start acting like sapper because you call them sappers.


Chaos marines with close combat weapons and Icon of Khorne (fluffy for the Iron warriors),

no more than units bearing any other mark.


Raptors, Vindicator, Oblits and Havocs.

except now what you've done is basically name every unit in the army and that's not even a theme at all, let alone a 'very' good one.


This is a radically different army, no?

er. no. you've basically listed the same units twice (with the noteable exception of Daemons, thank you) but given them different names. they will ultimately play in very similar fashions unless the players make a excessively stong attempt not to play to their strengths.


But the undivided legions ARE quite similar, and the way you collect, convert and play your army will reinforce the differences.

:eyebrows: you know the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. it is posssible for me to have a Dark Angels army that looks different to your Space Wolves army and plays differently too.

i also object the the unfounded reasoning that the undivided Legions are similar just because GW has never put much effort into differentiating them. the differences between Space Marines of the first founding did not appear at the second founding. they were different before that on an organisational if not personal level.


Cult legions, if you wanted to really make them what they are, need a new codex, if only for the art and background.

whilst i fully agree that the Cult Legions also could do with their own Codexes, i think is a shame that your creativity begins and ends with them and does not extend to include the undivided legions. a Word Bearers book could include some amazing detail on what other types of daemon there are in the warp, and what lesser powers can be found. an Iron Warriors book might included some increadible stories about the many and varied Daemon engies that are not Defilers.

the possibilities are really endless.


But even that isnt very necessary. Players with imagination and skill can make their armies exactly how they want them.

only by not using the Codex.

my Heralds of Darkness army, who used the rules for Emperor's Children, were very carefully modeled and painted by myself to be distinct and every Asp Champ and up (including all the Chosen and Possessed) were made as individuals who had clearly had had their own journey along the path of Chaos. now my army is near unusable. the models no longer fit the rules and the rules no longer fit the army. its nothing like the thing that it was before, and its no good trying to fob me off with 'at least you can take Lash now'.

Pandion40
27-02-2008, 12:15
as you say the thread is really about what you want, so could you give us a bit of explination as to how you might have gone about 'playing up' the hating everyone aspect of the NL, without simply making them not Chaos Space Marines.


Sorry to be so late replying but I lost track of the thread then recently I have been reading Legion and I saw this thread was still going and remembered this sentence from you. Thing is making them simply not Chaos Space marines was a large part of what I wanted from the Night Lords. I wanted them to be Evil but out only for themselves. Play up the Crime lord’s part of their background.

On another topic anyone read Legion yet does it change anything about what you want from the Alpha Legion. They have changed the Alpha Legion of the Heresy era in an important way would you like them to change the 40K Alpha Legion background to match.

AdmiralDick
27-02-2008, 18:50
Thing is making them simply not Chaos Space marines was a large part of what I wanted from the Night Lords. I wanted them to be Evil but out only for themselves. Play up the Crime lord’s part of their background.

firstly, thanks for taking the time to get back to me.

whilst i certainly can't fault you on your own opinion of what you'd like to see, i find it a little difficult to follow. why take a Chaos Space Marine Legion and then make them unchaotic? surely is all you wanted was an 'evil' Space Marine army there are plenty of others you could choose from, or invent? the point of the Chaos Space Marines is that they are Chaos Space Marines. i might as well say i'd like to develope the background for Ulthwé more and actually they are Dark Eldar.

there are clearly a lot of player on Warseer (talking generally here not specifically about you) that want to play as 'evil' and so pick to army that typifies evil in the game, which is Chaos Space Marines. they then realise that the character and nature of Chaos' evil does not match what they want out of a 'evil' army. most often they want a highly ordered and individual less form of evil, like the Empire from Star Wars or to a lesser extent the Nazis. and finding no particular simile for this they want to evisage that Chaos can be this other kind of evil, inspite of the clear background and even the name.

now, i have no issue with people wanting that, nor with people getting more of what they want (and evil army that isn't chaos), but i do have a hard time swollowing changing the purpose of an army in the context of its background like that.

sorry if this seems agressive, its really not meant to be, i'm genuinely interested in what people's ideas are. i'm just struggling to understand this and similar ones (like IW not really being chaotic. and AL not really being chaotic. and even inventing Chaos Tau and then saying they are not really chaotic.)

that aside, how would you actually go about playing up the bully-boy, mafiosa imagary? what mechanics would you see as representing this on the table? i look forward to hearing your ideas.

Pandion40
27-02-2008, 19:56
I can only reply for myself but personally I dislike religion. I dislike being around people who are very religious. This is why I dislike word bearers intensely, I also dislike the sisters. That’s why if I ever do a Chaos Army it will probably be black legion and have a general who is quite bitter and twisted, one who bitterly regrets following Horus into damnation but is know trapped and determined to make as many people suffer as he has.

As for mechanics for the Night Lords I’m not sure to be honest most of the ideas suited to the bully-boy, mafiosa imagery are more appropriate for a campaign. Maybee give them objectives like defeating the enemy general in combat gives you extra victory points to represent you taking him for ransom.

Vaktathi
27-02-2008, 20:18
I can only reply for myself but personally I dislike religion. I dislike being around people who are very religious. This is why I dislike word bearers intensely, I also dislike the sisters. That’s why if I ever do a Chaos Army it will probably be black legion and have a general who is quite bitter and twisted, one who bitterly regrets following Horus into damnation but is know trapped and determined to make as many people suffer as he has.
The Black Legion is very devoted to the gods of Chaos, not in the churchy way of the Word Bearers, but they are still very much religious troops. What you describe sounds more like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, possibly Alpha Legion or a renegade chapter. Although no proper Legion marine would have any regrets about following the path Horus took.



As for mechanics for the Night Lords I’m not sure to be honest most of the ideas suited to the bully-boy, mafiosa imagery are more appropriate for a campaign. Maybee give them objectives like defeating the enemy general in combat gives you extra victory points to represent you taking him for ransom.

The Night Lords are all about fear and despair, they wouldn't hold someone for ransom so much as to make a rather horrific example of them so the rest of their foes know whats coming.

Varath- Lord Impaler
27-02-2008, 21:21
so Alpha Legion can do anything anyone else can, but they do it in there own distinct fashion? is that not the same as doing a different thing?

i'm not particularly interested creating a list that stops their armies from doing the things that they would expect it to be able to do, however i do want a list that CAN be used to show the Alpha Legion doing the things others do, but in the particularly Alpha Legion fashion.

No actually, it means they are aiming for the same objectives in a different fashion, which is something different.

The Alpha legion fashion is to attack from all sides, right?

The judicial use of Chosen infiltrators, bikes, raptors, deep striking units and chaos marines in Rhinos would give you an army that attacks from all sides very easily.


well i would probably take issue with that. there is no strong indication from the Codexes or otherwise that the Alpha Legion are as tactically flexible as the Black Legion or Ultramarines. infact their fractious and subversive nature would rather imply that they would find it difficult to rely on massed infantry attack without the majority of that infantry being local cultist and rebels.

Cultists and rebels are unreliable. A marine cannot lead an army with lesser troops simply because they dont understand them. An Alpha legion army would be mainly marines, thats just how it is.


can't imagine they can rely on much in the way of heavy support either (not saying they don't have it, but it won't follow them round closely meaning it will usually turn up late). and finally and most crucially the Alpha Legion's emblem is of the many headed Hydra because they are noted for their pincer manauvers in which they trap their enemies (unlike the Black Legion who are noted for their 'brush aside and stab' attacks).

Huh? What in the mythology in the Hydra gives the image of a pincer attack?

They are signified by the Hydra because if you remove 1 head 2 more appear in its place. Each unit is self sufficiant, you cant just kill the lord and expect the army to die. That is why they are known by the Hydra.



you are right to say that not all Alpha Legion troops fight all the time with such tactics, but that does not mean that the average Alpha Legionaire does not fight like that nor deserve rules for actually representing that, rather than forcing relatively inflexible rules to their limits.


Why? the average alpha legionairre isnt a tactician, he's a warrior. Also the rules are quite flexible, you just refuse to use them in that way.

Why not use 2 units of marines on foot and one Rhino mounted? It would enable you to outflank the foe quite easily. Which is what the alpha legion are known for.


well i've already given my opinons on that in this thread. the current codex is designed to represent an generic, middle-ground chapter, and not one of the themes that the Undivided Legions follow. whilst you can just a about muddle an army that looks a bit like one of the Undivided Legions it is not a 'very' good representation, merely sufficiant, because there is infinitely so much more that could be done to make the army more like the 'stereotype' of that Legion.


The Undivided armies ARE the generic middle ground legions!

Also an Iron Warrior marine would hardly differ from a Word Bearer marine or a Night Lords marine except in playstyle and equipment. Already you have all the equipment you need (bolter BP CCW) and in playstyle its mostly done by the squad, not the individual marine.


simply renaming units doesn't make their in game effect more like the thing you've renamed them to. Chosen will not suddenly start acting like sapper because you call them sappers.


What does a Sapper do?

He gets in close and demolishes fortifications.

What can the chosen do?

Infiltrate with Meltas, flamers and Powerfists.

What is the difference?!

I have Sappers in my Imperial Guard army, Hardened Vets with 3 Meltas and a powerfist sergeant. You can do it better, why dont you?


no more than units bearing any other mark.


Older background has the Iron Warriors having an affinity with Khorne.



except now what you've done is basically name every unit in the army and that's not even a theme at all, let alone a 'very' good one

No, i havnt. Your just being bitter. Im sorry that you cant see the difference in the 2 lists i put up. But i think you just arnt trying anymore.


you know the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. it is posssible for me to have a Dark Angels army that looks different to your Space Wolves army and plays differently too.


My Imperial Fists army plays different to my friends Ultramarine army and we both play with normal Codex:Marines

Why cant you do the same?


you know the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. it is posssible for me to have a Dark Angels army that looks different to your Space Wolves army and plays differently too

Where is the background for this?


whilst i fully agree that the Cult Legions also could do with their own Codexes, i think is a shame that your creativity begins and ends with them and does not extend to include the undivided legions. a Word Bearers book could include some amazing detail on what other types of daemon there are in the warp, and what lesser powers can be found. an Iron Warriors book might included some increadible stories about the many and varied Daemon engies that are not Defilers.

No actually, you cant do that with a Word Bearers army.

Firstly, there is no way you could begin to classify the Daemons of the warp, there are too many of them.

Secondly, the statline for daemons in the current codex is right, because Daemons cannot remain that powerful once theyve left the warp, you could use the Daemon rules coming in Codex: Daemons because they are part of a massive event which allows them to keep their coherent form.

The Daemons Word Bearers have are just warp creatures.

The Iron Warriors hate the Daemonic. Why would they include Daemon engines?

And why would no other power have these Daemon engines?


only by not using the Codex.

No, by using the codex with some intelligence. Its painfully easy to still create a fluffy army. Just people sacrifice fluff for gameplay power and then complain about it.



my Heralds of Darkness army, who used the rules for Emperor's Children, were very carefully modeled and painted by myself to be distinct and every Asp Champ and up (including all the Chosen and Possessed) were made as individuals who had clearly had had their own journey along the path of Chaos. now my army is near unusable. the models no longer fit the rules and the rules no longer fit the army. its nothing like the thing that it was before, and its no good trying to fob me off with 'at least you can take Lash now'.

There is a local Slaanesh player who got hit hard by the new rules. But he dealt with it now he loves the new ones because it gives his squads the power he always wanted them to have.

Imperialis_Dominatus
27-02-2008, 22:19
Huh? What in the mythology in the Hydra gives the image of a pincer attack?

They are signified by the Hydra because if you remove 1 head 2 more appear in its place. Each unit is self sufficiant, you cant just kill the lord and expect the army to die. That is why they are known by the Hydra.

While it's true that the fluff for the Alpha Legion indicates that the Hydra was used as the symbol because the Legion operates in many independent cells and, even with the (apparent) death of their Primarch they fight very well, one could surmise that a creature with multiple heads (the Hydra) could attack a warrior from multiple sides at once. I think here you're just picking apart Admiral Dick's post just to pick it apart.

On much of the rest, I agree somewhat. The Chaos Codex, in my opinion, represents the Legions fairly well. However, as evidenced by this thread, some people disagree. Some of it comes down to unit choice and using those units.

Personally, I think what's really missing from CSM is a) Cult... well, everything, b) some form of lesser troops (though if LatD are ever redone, I'll be satisfied with that), and c) more Daemon engines (I have a few ideas, and this discrepancy may be rectified with the upcoming Daemon Codex). Other than that, I'm fine with it.

Vaktathi
27-02-2008, 22:45
The biggest problem I currently have with the CSM codex is that trying to make a shooting heavy non-cult army without tanking your comp score by taking as few troops as possible isn't very possible.

In the previous codex with my Iron Warriors, I had 6 oblits (the only thing that made it a *real* IW list was the 3 extra Oblits) and three Las/HB/D.Possession predators and a 4 termi retinue with a Reaper AC for a termi lord and then four 8 man Chaos marine Troops squads with a plasma gun and a heavy bolter in an 1850 list.

I could put out a decent amount of firepower and still have a good number of troops and not tank on Comp. A very shooty army that was hard but wasn't too horrendous to face with another tourney list (although was fairly poor in CC). To get the same firepower now I basically need to dump the troops (and the tanks) and take Chosen instead while the HS units cost more and still not have the range.

It's really hard to make a decent shooting non-cult list that isn't very light on troops.

Ddraiglais
28-02-2008, 05:07
No actually, it means they are aiming for the same objectives in a different fashion, which is something different.

The Alpha legion fashion is to attack from all sides, right?

The judicial use of Chosen infiltrators, bikes, raptors, deep striking units and chaos marines in Rhinos would give you an army that attacks from all sides very easily.

It's still not AL. Being able to approximate something isn't the same thing as being able to do it.



Cultists and rebels are unreliable. A marine cannot lead an army with lesser troops simply because they dont understand them. An Alpha legion army would be mainly marines, thats just how it is.


Have you read any fluff on the AL? AL are broken up and scattered all across the galaxy. They operate in small groups to stir up rebellion. They would have small groups of marines with large groups of cultists/traitor guards. They would make use of anything they could. I would support a special rule that banned AL from using Chaos armor and having IG armor instead.

Cultists and rebels might be unreliable, but the AL have been dealing with them for 10K years. In place of reliability they have predictability. I'm sure the AL know when it's time to get off the planet and leave the rebels to their fate.



Huh? What in the mythology in the Hydra gives the image of a pincer attack?

They are signified by the Hydra because if you remove 1 head 2 more appear in its place. Each unit is self sufficiant, you cant just kill the lord and expect the army to die. That is why they are known by the Hydra.

The heads attack from different directions.



Why? the average alpha legionairre isnt a tactician, he's a warrior. Also the rules are quite flexible, you just refuse to use them in that way.

Yes and no. If you know anything about the primary mission of the US Army special forces, it is to train rebels. It seems to me to be very similar to the AL. They go in behind enemy lines. They train friendly guerillas. In some instances, they lead those troops as well.



Why not use 2 units of marines on foot and one Rhino mounted? It would enable you to outflank the foe quite easily. Which is what the alpha legion are known for.

No, the AL are known for going to a planet and inciting rebellion. If there was a large AL force, then the whole attacking from many sides might hold true. I think it's more of a guerilla warfare deal though. Their planetary operations consist of bombings at key facilities, an attack here followed by a planned retreat, a suicide bombing over there that kills the planetary governor, etc. That's how I see the many heads of the hydra. I also see a lot of those missions being performed by their recruits on the planet.



The Undivided armies ARE the generic middle ground legions!

Not since 3.5 (actually the 3.25 articles). GW had always wanted to do more with Chaos. They started with 3.5, which was a great idea that went wrong. Now the designers have said they want to do Chaos right. That should include proper lists for the Undivided legions. How is it that you can get that the Undivided legions are the generic middle ground when the studio doesn't even see them that way?



Also an Iron Warrior marine would hardly differ from a Word Bearer marine or a Night Lords marine except in playstyle and equipment. Already you have all the equipment you need (bolter BP CCW) and in playstyle its mostly done by the squad, not the individual marine.

So thousands of years specialising in siege warfare wouldn't make you different from someone who spent thousands of years worshipping Chaos and fighting mini-crusades? I'm not saying that a WB can't fight a siege, but I'd rather the IW do it. Other legions use daemons, but they aren't quite the gifts of the gods that they are to the WB.

As far as the equipment being there, it's not. There is nothing out there to differentiate one legion from the next other than a paint scheme.



What does a Sapper do?

He gets in close and demolishes fortifications.

What can the chosen do?

Infiltrate with Meltas, flamers and Powerfists.

What is the difference?

I have Sappers in my Imperial Guard army, Hardened Vets with 3 Meltas and a powerfist sergeant. You can do it better, why dont you?

So we rename units, and all of a sudden everything's fixed? How about I rename my predator and call it a basilisk? It's not the same. Renaming things and counts as are poor substitutes for well written rules.



Older background has the Iron Warriors having an affinity with Khorne.

I won't argue that here. The IW should have some sort of bezerker and/or breeching troops.



No, i havnt. Your just being bitter. Im sorry that you cant see the difference in the 2 lists i put up. But i think you just arnt trying anymore.

Umm, you were basically renaming units to try and make him feel better. As far as bitter goes, you have no idea. I reserve the right to stay bitter until they fix the legions. That's what this thread was suppose to be in the first place. It was suppose to be a way for us to float ideas for legion rules. It was never meant to be a defense against fanboys who see nothing wrong with the list. I'm convinced that you just came on this thread to stir up trouble.



My Imperial Fists army plays different to my friends Ultramarine army and we both play with normal Codex:Marines

Why cant you do the same?

There's a surprise. You play an army from the generic codex. I do have a question for you though. What kind of reaction do you think you'd get if the 5.0 SM dex was for the BA, BT, DA, and SW as well as generic marines? There'd be riots in Nottingham.



Where is the background for this?


He was just saying what I just tried to point out. There are books for plenty of armies that could probably get rolled up into one dex. Instead all those SM armies get their own lists.



No actually, you cant do that with a Word Bearers army.

Why not? At a minimum, why couldn't you include the daemons from the new daemon dex if you balanced it?



Firstly, there is no way you could begin to classify the Daemons of the warp, there are too many of them.

Not all of them, but a WB list might be a great way to get some new models with some fun rules.



Secondly, the statline for daemons in the current codex is right, because Daemons cannot remain that powerful once theyve left the warp, you could use the Daemon rules coming in Codex: Daemons because they are part of a massive event which allows them to keep their coherent form.

And yet they are making a dex that includes the old daemons, which can remain that powerful in real space? CSM incursions aren't a massive event? Didn't Cadia come close to total collapse a couple of Summers ago?



The Daemons Word Bearers have are just warp creatures.

Since when?



The Iron Warriors hate the Daemonic. Why would they include Daemon engines?

Yet again you show a complete lack of knowledge about the fluff surrounding Chaos. The IW do use daemons. They use them all the time. The difference is that the IW will not use unbound daemons. The IW have plenty of daemons bound in their siege guns and other weapons.



And why would no other power have these Daemon engines?

Who says they don't. Maybe the IW could get the rules for them because they use them that much more? Maybe other legions use normal daemons instead? Khorne and Nurgle are about to get daemon engines so I would say that most legions use them. I would suggest maybe just one or two weapons that the IW could use. The daemon cannon from WFB would be perfect. They already have a model for it. Give it rules, and IW players would buy those by the pallet load.



No, by using the codex with some intelligence. Its painfully easy to still create a fluffy army. Just people sacrifice fluff for gameplay power and then complain about it.

Here we go with the accusations. I was wondering how long it would take you to get around to it. If someone wants a unique army that follows the fluff of his army, then he MUST be a powergamer. I am so sick of this BS.



There is a local Slaanesh player who got hit hard by the new rules. But he dealt with it now he loves the new ones because it gives his squads the power he always wanted them to have.

You could probably do a Slaaneshi army that is way over the top in effectiveness better than any other army. I'm not accusing your friend of anything. I'm just pointing that out. :p To be honest with you though, I doubt I would like the IW if they came out more "cheesy" than they were accused of being in 3.5 if they didn't follow the fluff. I've stated a hundred times before, but yet noone seems to here me. Most of us do not want an overpowered list. We want balanced lists that reflects our legions. I'd even play an underpowered list if I could go back to fielding my IW army.

Occulto
28-02-2008, 05:49
Man, this thread shows just how difficult it is to even consider doing a Legion Chaos codex. Everyone's got a different interpretation of what the Legions should do, what's valid and what isn't. Fragments of obscure fluff is being thrown back and forth. It's more serious than an argument between Trekkies on sci-fi physics. :p

Whatever the case, I don't envy the poor fool in the Studio who gets lumped with this job.

He might have to take some advice from Salman Rushdie. Tips on how to avoid the fanatics who'll try to find him and beat him to death with their ragged copies of Slaves to Darkness. :p

Ddraiglais
28-02-2008, 06:44
LOL @ Occulto. I'm not sure it would be that extreme. I think if they touched on each legion with some special rules, most people would be happy. There are some pretty solid notions about how each legion should be done. If the design team doesn't stray too far from that, then I think they'll be o.k. If not, I have a pitchfork in my garage. :p

thebaz
28-02-2008, 07:00
The one thing I like about the new Codex is it does allow u to get inventive. For example I am including a Noise Marine unit that I call Seige Breakers. Instead of carrying sonic weaponry, they carry daemonically possessed Bolters, that repressents the Sonic Weapons, and the +1 initiative

@ Vaktathi. Easy way of taking an army is take 3 Troops choices and make at least 2 of them a large amount of Marines, not some woosey 8 marines Im talking 15+. Hard hitting and it makes u sink enought pts into troops to not tank your comp. In theory

feelnopain666
28-02-2008, 10:32
I think that the marks should work as they used to be in 3rd edition. Depending on the Mark the amy leader have, it should have some changes on the army composition. The older rules for the Legions were fine, but the IW should still have only 3 Heavy Support choiçes (maybe the Obliterators should be Elites or something)

Pandion40
28-02-2008, 10:33
I have been reading the new Heresy Novel Legion it’s all about the Alpha Legion. From this it seems an Alpha legion army would attack from all directions at once both on and off the battlefield. They would have operatives with both the enemy and amongst their allies. They are quite ruthless the book opens with them allowing an imperial Guard company to be slaughtered to draw out the enemy.

They have many human operatives some of them seem to be surgically enhanced, I have read some ware that the legion will implant certain marine organs into their otherwise human operatives. All are valued members of the Legion not just the Marines. The humans are not minions to be sacrificed lightly but if a sacrifice is needed there is no hesitation.

I dislike the idea of all the Alpha legions troop choices being humans with marines as elites but there is no doubt in my mind that there should be a significant human presence in the alpha legion army list, in all sections from Elites to Troops.

Infiltrating troops should be a big part of the list but not the whole list as they need to attack from all directions not just using one tactic.

Ddraiglais
28-02-2008, 12:05
@Pandion40
You get a cookie for pretty much hitting the nail on the head with the AL. :) I'm not sure about them implanting marine organs. What book is that in? I'd love to read more about it.

Now we still have the problem of coming up with specific rules for them and the other legions.

Reaver83
28-02-2008, 12:38
I think for the god specific legions, they can almost white dwarf it saying 'take marked units for god X from the CSM book and demons for god X from the demon book'

As for the others who knows?

Ddraiglais
28-02-2008, 13:23
I don't think that would work too well, Reaver83. It sounds great. The huge problem is that the daemons in the new dex are suppose to be very good stats wise and very cheap points wise. I don't think you could just combine them like that. You would get cries of cheese from everywhere. The daemons need to cost more if they are going to be combined with CSM.

Another point for the cults is that a lot of units need to be restricted. If it's a WE army, then they don't get access to the other three marks. Of course there's a debate on which units each cult gets as well. Some would argue that the cults should get markable termies. Some would argue that certain troops don't fit in certain armies (havocs, bikes, raptors, etc).

In the end, you have to have a list that is fluffy, but balanced. That was the downfall of the 3.5 dex. It was fluffy, but very abusable. Any legion codex(ices) will have to have a lot of thought put into it. I don't see any easy fixes for it. That's why I've loved this thread. A lot of people have put forth some great ideas. I hope someone from the dev team has maybe taken a look here.

Blitz 7
28-02-2008, 16:14
My only 2 complaints are the lack of cult specific daemons and that the mark doesn't give you all the qualities of the cult you joined. I don't see someone kinda worshipping a greater daemon.

AdmiralDick
28-02-2008, 20:13
No actually,

lol :p i'm starting to wonder whether you only post on this thread to disagree with me Varath.

nevertheless, much as this conversation might be quite interesting for you and me, its pretty off topic, because we are not asking whether you like the current codex or even if you think its a good idea. we're only looking to see what you would do if you had to generate some extra rules for the legions.

sadly, you do know how to push all my buttons so i am going to respond to this post, but its going to be the last. feel free to respond to me and get the last word, but i'm only going to reply to you if you want to discuss new ideas for new rules for the Traitor Legions like your ideas for the WE.


No actually, it means they are aiming for the same objectives in a different fashion, which is something different.

The Alpha legion fashion is to attack from all sides, right?

okay, i'm afraid you are totally loosing me on your train of thought here. are you saying that the AL use a different/specialised/unorthodox/unique tactic/s or not?

because things like "they just dont do it the same way." and "they are aiming for the same objectives in a different fashion" and even "The Alpha legion fashion is to attack from all sides" make it sound like what you're saying is that the the AL have a style that is considered typical of them and not others (although this doesn't prevent them from acting 'out of character' or being 'imitated' by others) and yet you seem to be trying to use such statements as an argument against their individuality.


The judicial use of Chosen infiltrators, bikes, raptors, deep striking units and chaos marines in Rhinos would give you an army that attacks from all sides very easily.

agreed. but sadly my idea of what constitutes judicial and your idea differ quite extensively.


Cultists and rebels are unreliable. A marine cannot lead an army with lesser troops simply because they dont understand them. An Alpha legion army would be mainly marines, thats just how it is.

whilst i disagree with your stance on the composition of the army it seems that we both agree that the AL fight in a pretty much cellular formation (whether by choice of tactics, or out of necessity because they cannot rely on anyone else). that it rather markedly different from the WB and the DG who both rely on massed infantry and the EC and IW who both rely on heavy equipment to back them up.


Huh? What in the mythology in the Hydra gives the image of a pincer attack?

nothing. i was refering to the statement in the 2nd Ed codex:


The Alpha warriors adopted the symbol of the hydra as their Legion's symbol. This many-headed, dragon-like creature from ancient myth served to remind the brethren of the Alpha Legion of their ultimate unitu in body and spirit. On the battlefield the terrifying coordination of the Alpha Legion was their hallmark, their attacks kept the enemy under relentless preasure while they sought a weak point in their defences

you are right, it was probably misleading of me to use the term 'pincer' because it has a technical meaning in warfare. what i was merely meaning was trapping enemies between various attacks.

however, your explination is equally valid, they rely on multiple attacks so that is one is foiled the rest continue unabaited, i just can't find any specific justification for it in any of the background.


Why not use 2 units of marines on foot and one Rhino mounted? It would enable you to outflank the foe quite easily. Which is what the alpha legion are known for.

whilst you are right to an extent it would not work in a meta-game sense. in a limited number of smallish games on smallish boards against certain armies that is true. if i played on a bigger board it would not have the desired effect.


The Undivided armies ARE the generic middle ground legions!

i don't really know what you are trying to say here, nor where you are getting your justification for such statements from.

if you mean that the undivided Legions are the middle ground in terms of who they worship then that is absolutely true. they worship one god above another (although that doesn't mean that all undivided armies are in the middle ground, because if you worship anyone that is not a greater power or more than one greater power, then you are lump labeled 'undivided').

if you mean that they are tactically in the middle ground then you are really barking up the wrong tree. there is no indication anywhere (nor has there ever been) that the undivided legions, save for the BL, were any more or less varied or unorthodox in their choice in tactics than any of the 'cult' legions. the BL and the Ultramarines represent the absolute middle-ground when it comes to what tactics they employ and they are willing to change their plans to suit the occassions. on most other occassions, all the other First Foundings brethren will force a situation to suit what they wish to to, rather than change their plans. there is no mention of the Alpha Legion changing their tactics in any of the background that i can see. they always employ as many different styles of attack at once as they can, and from as many different angles. they they do all of these things does not make them flexible nor anything like the middle ground.


Also an Iron Warrior marine would hardly differ from a Word Bearer marine or a Night Lords marine except in playstyle and equipment.

that's what i'm arguing for Varath. i'm not asking for the stats between basic marines to vary from one Legion Codex to the next. veiwed as individuals there should be little to tell one SM from another. its only when you get them to opperate in a larger group, i.e. a squad or even an army, that their minor differences begin to accumulate and they then play differently. the basic building block of a good and interesting armylist should be an individual/unit, not a whole army to which one applies another 'special' rule applied over the top.

You can do it better, why dont you?

:eyebrows: that's what this threads about Varath. we're discussing where people don't think the rules for the CSM Legions match up with their background, and what we would do to make the situation better.

one of my suggestions was replacing Raptors with Sappers in an IW list.


Older background has the Iron Warriors having an affinity with Khorne.

we never seem to grow tired of this one do we. you really don't need to explain to me what the 'old background' says about IW or anyone else for that matter. its the part of the hobby i get most enjoyment out of.

the only 'source' of background that links IW explicitly with Khorne is Storm of Iron. Ddraiglais and i differ on opinions as to what context that should be taken in. either way it is one example (and a non-codex example, so only secondary level 'canon') from only 5 years ago, which in the timescales of games developement is really not all that long ago. it was published inbetween the current codex and the previous incarnation of rules for the IW and in that regard isn't very ancient sequentially either.

all other background (prior and since), including all codexes and all publications including rules for IW has made it explicitly clear that they are entirely undivided.


My Imperial Fists army plays different to my friends Ultramarine army and we both play with normal Codex:Marines

Why cant you do the same?

for the same reason that just because people in India use a squat loo with no sewer system, doesn't mean i should.

just because you are putting up with a situation that could be better, doesn't mean that we all need to take a step back. it would be possible for the developement team to create interesting and varied lists for all the First Founding, giving each one its own, unique feel and flavour, without simply making the armies 1-dimensional and flat.


Where is the background for this?

i'm not sure, because i'm not sure that your question relates to the quote you give.


No actually, you cant do that with a Word Bearers army.

can't? that's quite strong coming from you Varath. i thought it was your position that the undivided legions could do whatever they wanted to.

regardless of your opinion on whether the WB are capable of summoning (or allying with) daemons who are more than weakened formless spirits, that's not what i actually suggested. i was countering your point that only Cult Legions would have interesting background material in there books (if anything theire's would be the most boring surely, simply covering old ground again). whether or not actual rules for the army included unique rules for different types of deamon, there is no reason why some pages of the book could not be given over to a description of different types of undivided daemons (whether they are unaligned or dedicated to a minor power). and if you really don't think that naming types of daemon is possible i might point you to the forth coming Codex: Daemons which will include a number of specific types of daemon.

similarly other undivided legions could contain background on other previously uncharted territories. the Alpha Legion's book might have a few pages of background on Chaos Cults in the 41st millennia, and the Iron Warriors of the engines of war that the Chaos Space Marines employ when on a granter scale.


The Iron Warriors hate the Daemonic. Why would they include Daemon engines?

to quote a friend, "Where is the background for this?"



There is a local Slaanesh player who got hit hard by the new rules. But he dealt with it now he loves the new ones because it gives his squads the power he always wanted them to have.

:eyebrows: Varath, you don't know me, you don't know how i play and you have no reason at all to think that i am some how so unstable that i have not 'dealt with' the new Codex: Chaos Space Marines, other than in an attempt to make you sound more authorative than me on this forum. lets not get personal with our implications please.

i don't like the current Codex because it has removed infinitely more from my army than it has added to it. it no longer plays as a dynamic, mid-range, counter-assault force. it is now short range with nothing like the counter-assault element that it used to have. in fact it is not the same army. it just has the same name. what have i gained? an additional 12" and point of AP on the few remaining Blastmasters in my army. that is the sum total of gains.

so the option is not to 'deal with' the changes, but to exchange my army for something completely different. apparently your friend was happy to do that. i am not. i don't like the army i have been offered in return for the army i lovingly collected, modelled and played for the last 6 years. that does not make me a lesser person, so please do not talk to me like one.


I can only reply for myself but personally I dislike religion. I dislike being around people who are very religious. This is why I dislike word bearers intensely, I also dislike the sisters.

whilst you are entitled to your own opinion in the world, you should let your veiws of reality cloud the 'in game' world of 40k. in the 40k universe there are races and patron deities and that is the way things are. it does not add anything to the game to treat it like reality when it is a ficticious world.

if it helps any consider it this way. none of the 'gods' in the 40k universe are actually gods (save maybe Gork and Mork). all of them are simply normal, mundane beings with no real 'supernatural' abilities at all. they are just so vastly beyond our individual capacities and inhabit such vastly different realms that we can only help to think of them as gods. where as they are infact not. none of them started the universe, they all appeared within it, and are thus no different from you or i. that people can barter with them and make pacts and agreements is no different from your dog hanging round you because you feed it.

as a Christian, none of the so called 'god' in 40k actually meet up with any of the criteria that would in my mind define them as actual gods. so its probably not worth getting het up over. people just like using the imagery and language of religion, even if it doesn't really apply.


Man, this thread shows just how difficult it is to even consider doing a Legion Chaos codex. Everyone's got a different interpretation of what the Legions should do, what's valid and what isn't. Fragments of obscure fluff is being thrown back and forth. It's more serious than an argument between Trekkies on sci-fi physics. :p

there are some vary varied opinions on this thread. but then there is also a lot of overlap and agreement. nevertheless, GW have spun themselves a web that they cannot help but get caught in sooner or later. i don't envy them one bit.


The one thing I like about the new Codex is it does allow u to get inventive. For example I am including a Noise Marine unit that I call Seige Breakers.

whilst it (unfairly to my mind) stopped players from taking various cult troops in undivided legions lists, the previous codex didn't actually prevent you from doing that sort of substitution. you were perfectly entitled to add that level of creativity to your army; if you didn't like a particular unit's theme you could substitute it for one of your own making.

but i will agree that people seem more keen to do that these days, even if there has been no explicit change in policy.


I dislike the idea of all the Alpha legions troop choices being humans with marines as elites but there is no doubt in my mind that there should be a significant human presence in the alpha legion army list, in all sections from Elites to Troops.

i certainly wouldn't want to prevent someone from playing an all marine army using a AL list, but i think that that should be a self impossed restriction and you shouldn't expect it to have as many options as if you didn't.

in that vane i'd like to see AL have basic CSM as troops as an alternative to Cultists/rebels, but i would want them to be some what less powerful than regular CSM, so that they are not your first choice (who'd pick weakling cultists when you could have CSM) and so that you don't simply pick both and use cultists as ablative armour for Marines.

to my mind there should be two ways to take an AL army, a balanced and varialble 'with-cultists' option, and a less variable and less well balanced 'without-cultists' option.


Infiltrating troops should be a big part of the list but not the whole list as they need to attack from all directions not just using one tactic.

its an interesting question though, how does one best hope to represent 'from all angles using all tactics, at various key locations' in a game of 40k? does one try to squeeze all possible tactics into a single FOC (not sure how you'd do that), or does one forgo a literal interpretation for a bit of imagination and say, well this is just one point, or one side, or one tactic of many?


Any legion codex(ices) will have to have a lot of thought put into it. I don't see any easy fixes for it. That's why I've loved this thread. A lot of people have put forth some great ideas. I hope someone from the dev team has maybe taken a look here.

i've really enjoyed this thread to, because its really allowed us to flex our creative muscles to try and think of ingenious solutions to, frankly, very complex problems, and what's more is it has, for the most part, united chaos fans under one banner. there haven't been many occasions of late that we've gotten on so well.

Pandion40
28-02-2008, 21:08
whilst you are entitled to your own opinion in the world, you should let your veiws of reality cloud the 'in game' world of 40k. in the 40k universe there are races and patron deities and that is the way things are. it does not add anything to the game to treat it like reality when it is a ficticious world.

if it helps any consider it this way. none of the 'gods' in the 40k universe are actually gods (save maybe Gork and Mork). all of them are simply normal, mundane beings with no real 'supernatural' abilities at all. they are just so vastly beyond our individual capacities and inhabit such vastly different realms that we can only help to think of them as gods. where as they are infact not. none of them started the universe, they all appeared within it, and are thus no different from you or i. that people can barter with them and make pacts and agreements is no different from your dog hanging round you because you feed it.

as a Christian, none of the so called 'god' in 40k actually meet up with any of the criteria that would in my mind define them as actual gods. so its probably not worth getting het up over. people just like using the imagery and language of religion, even if it doesn't really apply.


I may have come across a little strong here. Whilst armies such as the Word Bearers have no interest for me personally I am happy they are in the hobby for those who enjoy them and for me to play against.

Funnily enough whilst the Word bearers annoy me the Cult Legions don’t, I’m not sure why but something about them feels different to the Word Bearers. I have even been tempted to play a World Eaters or Emperors Children Army

I would like the Traitor marines to span the whole spectrum in their worship of the Chaos god’s Word Bearers and the Cults utterly dedicated, Black legion dedicated but not quite as much. Then there would be Iron warriors, Night lords and Alpha legion that would run the gamete from the Black legions position to one and only one of the legions not worshiping Chaos at all.



its an interesting question though, how does one best hope to represent 'from all angles using all tactics, at various key locations' in a game of 40k? does one try to squeeze all possible tactics into a single FOC (not sure how you'd do that), or does one forgo a literal interpretation for a bit of imagination and say, well this is just one point, or one side, or one tactic of many?

Yes a good point I'm not a games designer but the everything bar the kitchen sink approach to army design rarely works. I think infiltrate is the most important tactic maybe along with deep strike