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View Full Version : Why exactly is AI techno-heresy?



Baltar
31-01-2008, 23:54
Is it because of previous experiences with the Men of Iron (who, by the way, haven't been referenced very much) or just because it violates Machine Spirits in some way?

PondaNagura
31-01-2008, 23:58
it's based on the Menof Iron encounter.
back in the Dark Age of technology (an actual golden age to those who lived at the time), there were the Men of Stone and the Men of Iron...they cooperated and spread throught the stars.
At some point some of the Men of Iron revolted against the Stone Men, and a galactic war ensued. Eventually the Stone Men, aided by some loyal MoI were victorious. but because of that it left the galaxy and the empires of man in ruin. All AI's, including the loyal ones, were destroyed, and AI's were banned lest it happens again.
so yeah bad experience in the past has emotionally/socially scarred humanity into never trusting thinking machines, unless they have biological (servitor) components.

Khaine's Messenger
01-02-2008, 01:49
Is it because of previous experiences with the Men of Iron (who, by the way, haven't been referenced very much) or just because it violates Machine Spirits in some way?

Abominable intelligence makes crass assumptions about the purpose of machines and the path to enlightenment. It is man who should become more like machine, and not the other way around. Sentience, after all, is the basest form of intellect according to AdMech dogma.

O'course, there's that whole men of iron thing, too....

Kandarin
01-02-2008, 02:53
Abominable intelligence makes crass assumptions about the purpose of machines and the path to enlightenment. It is man who should become more like machine, and not the other way around. Sentience, after all, is the basest form of intellect according to AdMech dogma.

...which is what they tell themselves, as few people in the AdMech know the story of the Iron Men, and fewer still know any actual non-mythic details about the matter.

Captain_Rory
01-02-2008, 04:30
I doubt anyone except possible the Empeor knows th whole story... So much is forgotten...

imperial_scholar
01-02-2008, 04:38
Geez what is the source for the 'iron men'?

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-02-2008, 05:08
It was in the back of the Third ed rulebook, which I've lost my copy of, unfortunately. Great fluff and art source, that. I might need to eBay a copy.

Jellicoe
01-02-2008, 07:14
Also referenced in one of the Gaunt's ghosts books, the first one I think

Iuris
01-02-2008, 09:28
I hold the heretical opinion it's all just an allegory for GW switching materials/creation methods used to make the models :p

The Warmaster
01-02-2008, 11:29
Also referenced in one of the Gaunt's ghosts books, the first one I think

Yeah, the Ghosts discovered an STC system that created Men of Iron. Sad thing is, the STC was corrupted by Chaos, so it had to be eliminated.

- N.

MrBigMr
01-02-2008, 11:41
It's basicly the same old story of Terminator, Dune, Matrix, etc.:
God creates dinosaur.
God destroys dinosaur.
God creates man.
Man destroys God.
Man creates machine.
Machine destroys man.
Man destroys machine.

Sceleris
01-02-2008, 11:43
Yeah, the Ghosts discovered an STC system that created Men of Iron. Sad thing is, the STC was corrupted by Chaos, so it had to be eliminated.

- N.

Although Gaunt was planning on destroying it in any event

Nemoyo
01-02-2008, 12:33
I believe it also states in Dark Heresy that the Adeptus Mechanicus regard true AI's as soulless and abhorrent.

The Warmaster
01-02-2008, 13:14
Although Gaunt was planning on destroying it in any event

True. It's been a while since I've read that book though, so I didn't recall that.

Kind of OT (with the sole connection lying in STCs), but which book had the original STC (Castigator?) Titan in it? I'm not sure if it was a Ghosts or Cain novel, or if it was another entirely.

- N.

Lord Cook
01-02-2008, 13:40
Yeah, the Ghosts discovered an STC system that created Men of Iron. Sad thing is, the STC was corrupted by Chaos, so it had to be eliminated.

Even had it remained pure, the Imperial authorities would have tried to destroy it. It was heretical after all.

Spyros80
01-02-2008, 16:09
There is great (unofficial) fluff for the 40K universe by Philip Sibbering, who has done art projects (I think:rolleyes:) for GW/Black Library.

This is the link to Dark Age of Technology
http://www.philipsibbering.net/WH40KRP/WH40KRP_Concepts_%5BDAoT%5D.htm

Dominus_Serui
01-02-2008, 16:27
Course, the Iron Men look nothing like what Mr Sibbering depicts them as, as one assumes that their STC remained in existance following the Dark Age of technology, and the skeletal legions that form the Chaos Androids are in fact the remnants of the Iron Men.

Leftenant Gashrog
01-02-2008, 17:34
as one assumes that their STC remained in existance following the Dark Age of technology, and the skeletal legions that form the Chaos Androids are in fact the remnants of the Iron Men.

Does that assumption have even the slightest basis in canon? If Chaos Androids were AI's why would they bother with the incredibly unreliable daemonic possession?

Dominus_Serui
01-02-2008, 17:41
It works on the process that, on at least one occasion a STC machine for construction of Iron Men lay on a chaos controlled world, and was capable of producing a series of Chaos controlled Iron Men, if not for a few moments prior to its distruction.

Why would you suggest that the daemonic possession was some kind of optional extra in life? Chaos corrupts by presence, regardless of wether thats for good or not is entirely out of the picture - the Dark Mechanicus are batshit insane, so its more than likely that they're quite happy to escorce the demonic presences of their greater masters into the constructs that once were Iron Men.

Not to mention I believe there is implication that Iron Men are skeletal by Mister Abnett - and on the other end I believe the fluff surrounding the Chaos Androids mentions that they are a product of the dark age of tech.

Norminator
01-02-2008, 17:47
The Iron Men were so powerful, it must be noted, that the idea behind Dravere and Heldane' seizure of them in the Gaunts Ghost book was that they would topple and take over the entire Imperial Crusade and then, presumably, go on to become some of the biggest players in the Imperium.

The factory temple they're housed in also has some fantastic defensive technology that the Guard forces have to break through.

swordwind
02-02-2008, 02:40
It's basicly the same old story of Terminator, Dune, Matrix, etc.:


The entire piece of background is more or less a carbon copy of the Machine Crusade of the Dune prequels. Even down the banning of AI and the use of human beings as computers (Mentats/Servitors).

Brother Thuemoose
02-02-2008, 03:23
Kind of OT (with the sole connection lying in STCs), but which book had the original STC (Castigator?) Titan in it? I'm not sure if it was a Ghosts or Cain novel, or if it was another entirely.

- N.

That's Dark Adeptus you're thinking of.

The Warmaster
02-02-2008, 03:31
Course, the Iron Men look nothing like what Mr Sibbering depicts them as, as one assumes that their STC remained in existance following the Dark Age of technology, and the skeletal legions that form the Chaos Androids are in fact the remnants of the Iron Men.

We share a common theory here. Has anyone got a link to a reliable source of background concerning the Androids?


That's Dark Adeptus you're thinking of.

Ah, that's the one. Thanks.

- N.

MrBigMr
02-02-2008, 09:54
The entire piece of background is more or less a carbon copy of the Machine Crusade of the Dune prequels. Even down the banning of AI and the use of human beings as computers (Mentats/Servitors).
Wasn't it the Butlerian Jihad or something?

Leftenant Gashrog
02-02-2008, 12:57
We share a common theory here. Has anyone got a link to a reliable source of background concerning the Androids?


Renegades suppliment for Space Marine 2nd edition is the only canon source I know of, according to that Chaos Androids are manufactured by chaos squats and then handed over to sorcerors to be daemonically possessed.

The Warmaster
02-02-2008, 13:31
Renegades suppliment for Space Marine 2nd edition is the only canon source I know of, according to that Chaos Androids are manufactured by chaos squats and then handed over to sorcerors to be daemonically possessed.

Hmmm, Chaos Squats, huh? (Don't say the S-word too loudly, or type it in too large a font! Games Workshop may be watching!)

Well, I suppose it doesn't explicitly rule out the DAoT and Iron Men link... for all we know, the evil little guys may have just found an incomplete Iron Men STC.

Oh, and I seem to recall Chaos Androids in Space Marine (the Epic precursor), all the way back in the RT days.

- N.

Dominus_Serui
02-02-2008, 14:26
They certainly were in Space Marine to the best of my recolection, I'll harass one of the guys in my gaming club who still has a copy to get a look at them as a source. Though I have a feeling that the Chaos Android background predates the Iron Men fluff, so it all depends heavily on wether your willing to make some conclusions or not. Though I wont deny the theory isn't based on conjecture it does lead some credence towards the reason that the mechanicus might be worried about the creation of further AI.

As for Swordwinds statement - yeah, pretty much - one has to remember that the grounding of 40k was essentially a mixture of the most popular pre-1980/90's fiction so theres quite a bit of similarities with allot of the popular Sci-Fi tales. The entirity of arbites are a takeoff of Judge Dredd.

Alessander
02-02-2008, 23:34
the admech nowadays is so scared of technology that pressing the "on" switch has to be a massive holy ritual. something as advanced as AI is mind-shattering to them

Chaplain of Chaos
02-02-2008, 23:39
Philip Sibbering is a stark raving lunatic and his interpretations are rubbish!

This is my opinion disregard at your pleasure.

AI's have no machine spirit thus are bad, also comes from the taboo of the Iron Men in the Dark Age of Technology.

Dominus_Serui
03-02-2008, 00:03
the admech nowadays is so scared of technology that pressing the "on" switch has to be a massive holy ritual. something as advanced as AI is mind-shattering to them

Its debatable wether this is fear or smokescreen...after all the Mechanicus is fond of dooing things that its not supposed to be dooing.

The Warmaster
03-02-2008, 02:36
Its debatable wether this is fear or smokescreen...after all the Mechanicus is fond of dooing things that its not supposed to be dooing.

Yeah, I doubt they'd have destroyed the Iron Men STC if it was found to be pure (if they could get to it before the Ghosts figured out what was going on, or before other authorities became involved). Just took it to Mars "to look at how it works" or some rubbish like that.

- N.

Iracundus
03-02-2008, 08:45
There is a section in Dark Heresy on this.


Paradoxically, true machine intelligences are held to be anathema by the Tech-Priests, for they view these as soulless automata, spiritless things cast into the galaxy to confound the will of the Machine God. p.264 Dark Heresy

There is a second quote where a similar stance is iterated on xenos technology. Even when the Adeptus Mechanicus has to admit superior performance of xenos tech, they claim it is unclean, lacking in spirit, or failing to properly venerage the Machine God.