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Wolfmother
01-02-2008, 19:33
w0lf posted

Wolfmother
01-02-2008, 19:41
sos n00by wolf posted before i could stop him!

anyway!

seer
screaming bell
skalm
warpstorm scroll 535

3 fully upgraded warlock engineers(bar pistols) one with eye of the horned rat one with scroll and one with storm daemon 110each

3x30 clanrats
command
rattling guns 235each

9x jezzails 180

warp lightning cannon 100

7x gutter runners
poisoned hand weps 98

3xpoioned wind globes 30

2x poisened wind globes 20

1998

Violadudester
01-02-2008, 20:59
Looks deadly.

My only sugesstion is that I'd make the Gutter Runners a tunneling team; maybe you forgot to list it, considering the point cost of them already? I know they get pretty expensive if they're given the upgrade, but being able to wreak havoc behind enemy lines and essentialy take out a war machiene the turn they pop, they'll win their points back easily. I hate those f***ers when they get behind my lines and charge my DE bolt thrower crews :cries:

Wolfmother
02-02-2008, 10:00
i have been told to do this but i prefer to use them as scouts that marchblock armys meaning i have another turn of shooting or two!

fubukii
02-02-2008, 12:07
you need slaves, the skaven army works a million times better with them as opposed to nto having them, in addition they are dirt cheap, so i see no reason to leave that out of your list. Take 3 units of 20-25.

This skaven army is way to small for its own good, skaven are meant and work best as a horde army.

- Your grey seer needs a ward save.
- Ratling guns, If your enemy cant shoot back these may get to shoot, id really think you would be better off with slaves.
- THe army has no way to deal with enemy warmachines, unless you get lucky with your screaming bell and get the d3 wounds to toughness 7 models result.
- I would throw in the warpstone charm on either the warlock with storm daemon or the grey seer, stopping a miscast or a wound from a token is huge.

Wolfmother
02-02-2008, 20:18
what will slaves ever do its not a combat army!

and the seer has effectivly five wounds so dosent need a ward save!

W0lf
02-02-2008, 20:26
Yeah ive played against this list like 50 times.

All i can offer is:

Drop the ratling guns, think back to when they last did anything for you..

Lose one Jezzail
Lose 1 Gutter runner (what do 7 do that 6 dont?)

Thats what 214 points saved?

then get another 8 Jezzails
and 3 more posioned

Murdoch
02-02-2008, 23:13
Yeah ive played against this list like 50 times.

All i can offer is:

Drop the ratling guns, think back to when they last did anything for you..

Lose one Jezzail
Lose 1 Gutter runner (what do 7 do that 6 dont?)

Thats what 214 points saved?

then get another 8 Jezzails
and 3 more posioned

Umm this is petty and I am sorry for not being able to offer more but why would he want to drop a jezzail just to get 8 more?

Hope you have something that moves ever so quick if wolfmother is offering up 16 jezzails a turn

fubukii
03-02-2008, 00:37
well u could use the slaves to flank, and or re direct charges away from your army getting more shots off.

W0lf
03-02-2008, 09:16
Umm this is petty and I am sorry for not being able to offer more but why would he want to drop a jezzail just to get 8 more?

2 units of 8. I could have written transfer the one jezzail over but it seems easier this way. Oh and yes that was very petty.


jezzails a tHope you have something that moves ever so quick if wolfmother is offering up 16 turn

Magic missiles travel how fast?

Oh and to be fair most fast stuff is what has to be scared of Jezzails. They are knight killers, not Rank N File. Jezzails dont scare me.

skavenman
03-02-2008, 09:42
With around then 110 models I am note very impressed. Yes you have a killer magic phase and a good shooting phase which will make an elite army have a hard time with you but any CC unit that makes it accross the bored will ravage you. Your easy to flank, your jezzails will run at a swift wind, to many points in ratling guns and you have no real way to deal with enemy artillery. Your grey seer is also very vulnerable, 1 misscast will make you have a bad day. Not to mention you have nearly 900pts in characters in a 2k game which is way excesive.

I just dont see this list doing well in general, I personally see a horde based skaven list having its way with your army.

W0lf
03-02-2008, 10:00
I just dont see this list doing well in general, I personally see a horde based skaven list having its way with your army.

He played vs over 200 model count goblin army and by turn 3 the whole enemy army was fleeing.

He folds like a paper cup in combat yes, but most dont get that far...

Often units that get the charge are down to just one rank so need 4 kills to win combat...

Horde skavens pretty crappy.

Murdoch
03-02-2008, 10:21
2 units of 8. I could have written transfer the one jezzail over but it seems easier this way. Oh and yes that was very petty.


Well I did say.... ;)

And you'd be happy for 16 jezzails to serve up its warpstone based goodness? You are bang on... Not a lot would get into combat!!!

The Goblin Analogy isn't the best. With rotten LD, I am not surprised it was all running by turn 3.

But in the end it is a nice list and would be entertaining to play against....

skavenman
03-02-2008, 10:21
Out of curiousty has this list fought many armies with say lots of Tomb Scorpians, Gutter runners with tunneling. I think any list taking those would destroy the jezzails/warplightning Cannon.


I just see this list as very hit or miss, great shooting/magic phase will be deadly, crappy magic/shooty phase and the game is over. Yeah you march block but march blocking will only do so much with one unit. Yes the globidiers can move out and help march block so much.

And Horde Skaven is only as good as the player, can be very deadly in the right hands.

Ward.
03-02-2008, 10:23
He played vs over 200 model count goblin army and by turn 3 the whole enemy army was fleeing.

He folds like a paper cup in combat yes, but most dont get that far...

Often units that get the charge are down to just one rank so need 4 kills to win combat...

Horde skavens pretty crappy.

I think there's a big difference between a goblin army and a skaven army, also the horde skaven army isn't crappy it just take a different mind set to play then other lists.

The_Dragon_Rising
03-02-2008, 10:26
and the seer has effectivly five wounds so dosent need a ward save!

A Slaan has 8 wounds yet people still upgrade its ward, for a model costing a quart of your total allowance for it to die would hurt- just ask yourself are those points on [insert unit of choice] worth the possibility of the seer staying alive longer?

just my 2c

skavenman
03-02-2008, 10:29
Skalm may effectively give you 5 wounds and on average regen will also give you the same thing but regen can also go beyond(and less but that the chance you take) 5 wounds.

fubukii
03-02-2008, 14:13
skalm is nice unless your greyseer dies in 1 shooting phase maybe by a bolt thrower or a great cannon/WLC stone thrower, Units of hand gunners, Crossbows, any ranged attack, close combat ETC etc.

Wolfmother
03-02-2008, 20:03
Out of curiousty has this list fought many armies with say lots of Tomb Scorpians, Gutter runners with tunneling. I think any list taking those would destroy the jezzails/warplightning Cannon.


yer i totaly play skaven vs skaven!


A Slaan has 8 wounds yet people still upgrade its ward, for a model costing a quart of your total allowance for it to die would hurt- just ask yourself are those points on [insert unit of choice] worth the possibility of the seer staying alive longer?


yes but you have to randomise and it only hits the seer on a six!

and i dont play many shooting heavy lists.

The_Dragon_Rising
03-02-2008, 20:13
yes but you have to randomise and it only hits the seer on a six!

and i dont play many shooting heavy lists.

It that case i guess your good as it is:D

Wolfmother
04-02-2008, 06:32
well u could use the slaves to flank, and or re direct charges away from your army getting more shots off.

no there slaves they dont break a weak unit in the flank!

ZeroTwentythree
04-02-2008, 14:45
no there slaves they dont break a weak unit in the flank!



Huh?

I'm not sure I understand what that's supposed to say in the first place... but if you're saying that slaves aren't good for flanking then you're missing out on a great opportunity. A nice big unit of slaves alone flanking weak or moderate troops should get at least +5 CR (+3 for ranks, +1 for outnumber and +1 for flank or +2 for rear) while the enemy will have no ranks, should be outnumbered and will not be likely to get the 5 wounds or so to win the combat.

fubukii
04-02-2008, 16:34
Slaves are easily the best unit in the skaven army, for a mere 40-54 pts you get a unit of 20-25 guys with a musician that starts at +4 cr not to shaby. A great way to use them which i think you are over looking wolf, is that when the enemy does get into your line, you can use these slaves to redirect enemy chargers to have to go a direction they dont want too opening their flanks for your clanrats to charge, or even get a extra round of shooting or magic in.

THis picture i drew in ms paint will work as a good diagram to learn what i mean u angle the slaves on a slant so that when charged they enemy has to wheel in then follow the unit, while it flees.

[img=http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7858/redirectskavenstylelw8.th.jpg] (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redirectskavenstylelw8.jpg)

[img=http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7083/flankchargetj7.th.jpg] (http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flankchargetj7.jpg)

there you go i hope that helps explain why slaves are a key part of any skaven army, be it shooting, combat, or magic heavy

W0lf
04-02-2008, 17:05
shhh (dont tell him slaves are good.. he might start beating me)

Wolfmother
04-02-2008, 18:00
yes but at my shop they take good combat units that if you flank with clanrats will win combat!

fubukii
04-02-2008, 22:37
like what? the only units that i can think of that if you flank them you would lose are chosen khorne warriors with 2hws 3 ranks deep, swordmasters, 3 or more ranks deep, and there really isnt much else to be honest.

You will start at CR6 they start at 1, so they have to kill 5 guys, and hope you dont kill any back. id say odds are the clanrats would win (even against 4 swordmasters 8 atks , 5.25 roughly hit, 4.4 wound .16 saved by the rats, your only looking at 3.65 wounds for a total of 4.6 we can even round it to 5 and now your causing a 300+ point unit take a break check at minus 1, id say thats rather impressive!

Also as a side note you dont have to flank them, you can use the slaves to direct the units away from your guns and clanrats, shoot at them again on your turn, then they turn to face your units but cant bc they need LOS, then u shoot em a second time thus giving you 2 extra rounds of shooting with your ratling guns, jezzails, WLCS, and warped lightning spells

Wolfmother
05-02-2008, 07:02
er what about wardancers or any skirmished unit for that matter any chosen block any block unit with a charecter in! saurus temple guard zombies skelitons grave guard the list goes on!

WageMage
05-02-2008, 15:00
er what about wardancers or any skirmished unit for that matter any chosen block any block unit with a charecter in! saurus temple guard zombies skelitons grave guard the list goes on!
That's the part were I'd usually say to use the PCB's etc...
Besides, do you really think you'll lose if you flank a ranked unit:confused:?
Worst case scenario with the slaves is that you bought yourself another turn of shooting/magic.
Your plan to survive HTH should be: march block with scouting gutters, throw some more slaves and globadiers at that uber unit of doom to make it do nothing the entire game.

Jack of Blades
05-02-2008, 15:10
like what? the only units that i can think of that if you flank them you would lose are chosen khorne warriors with 2hws 3 ranks deep, swordmasters, 3 or more ranks deep, and there really isnt much else to be honest.

You will start at CR6 they start at 1, so they have to kill 5 guys, and hope you dont kill any back. id say odds are the clanrats would win (even against 4 swordmasters 8 atks , 5.25 roughly hit, 4.4 wound .16 saved by the rats, your only looking at 3.65 wounds for a total of 4.6 we can even round it to 5 and now your causing a 300+ point unit take a break check at minus 1, id say thats rather impressive!

Also as a side note you dont have to flank them, you can use the slaves to direct the units away from your guns and clanrats, shoot at them again on your turn, then they turn to face your units but cant bc they need LOS, then u shoot em a second time thus giving you 2 extra rounds of shooting with your ratling guns, jezzails, WLCS, and warped lightning spells

Aren't you forgetting Standard, Musician and the occasional Banner on the SM's? they will also quite doubtlessly come in 7x2, or at least they should... and flanking SM's with Clanrats is a highly optimistic scenario.

Let's get this straight: 14 attacks, 10 hit, 8 wound and you get no save. That's ~11/10 (the latter assuming you knocked off their rank pre-combat) CR to them, and what have you got in return? standard, outnumber, 3 ranks and a musician.

ZeroTwentythree
05-02-2008, 15:27
Aren't you forgetting Standard, Musician and the occasional Banner on the SM's? they will also quite doubtlessly come in 7x2, or at least they should... and flanking SM's with Clanrats is a highly optimistic scenario.

Not really. Skaven should frequently have plenty of baiting/redirecting/throw-away units to manipulate SMs or whatever other units into flanking position.

So a 7x2 SM hit in the flank only (you don't want to be caught with anything to the front of that unit!) means a clanrat unit of at least 15 guys starts with CR +6, assuming the SM have a standard, that's a only a starting CR +1 (which fubukii included). The 2 SMs in contact with that flank would have to do 5 wounds to tie combat, 6 wounds to win. IIRC they get 4 attacks, hit on a 3+, wound on a 2+, which is about 2.2 wounds on an average and obviously no more than 4 wounds on a lucky day. If there are any remaining clanrats, it's not impossible for them to score a wound or two, either.

This is the core concept of playing a horde army. (Or whatever you may call it, it's similar with Empire or O&G as well.)

It doesn't matter how bad-ass a unit is theoretically, if they can't generate CR in a given situation (through wounds or whatever), they lose.

fubukii
05-02-2008, 15:39
jack, i was talking about a unit beating a unit of clanrats on the flank, not from a frontal charge. clanrats can not beat most things in a head to head fight ,but now if i flank that 7x2 unit their pretty much boned.

wolf: Eh temple guard are super pricey and unless ranked in a large unit (note that this is once again another 300+ pt unit) will still lose by a point or too to the flanking clanrats, grave guard will lose everytime if flanked not enough attacks to compensate fo the lose of their cr. And as for the character led unit well what makes you think he will be on that given flank, you have to postion the unit so that you have the best chance of winning the combat, the key to this manuever is not recklessly charging but forcing your enemy to move where you want him too in order to gain a advantage.

Wolfmother
05-02-2008, 16:34
That's the part were I'd usually say to use the PCB's etc...
Besides, do you really think you'll lose if you flank a ranked unit?
Worst case scenario with the slaves is that you bought yourself another turn of shooting/magic.
Your plan to survive HtH should be: march block with scouting gutters, throw some more slaves and globadiers at that uber unit of doom to make it do nothing the entire game.

yes but i think i have enough magic to sack any unit i dont need the slaves!

Stonerkid655321
06-02-2008, 00:52
sos n00by wolf posted before i could stop him!

anyway!

seer
screaming bell
skalm
warpstorm scroll 535

I think regeneration or warpstone armulet will serve you better than skalm. Also warpstorm scroll is a bit gash. I would take dispel scrolls insted.
I do not think the screming bell is that amazing, it can be a death trap since he cant leave it. You could spend that 200 points on other things.


3 fully upgraded warlock engineers(bar pistols) one with eye of the horned rat one with scroll and one with storm daemon 110each

Again more dispel scrolls are needed. Trust me it is very nice to be almost immune to magic.


3x30 clanrats
command
rattling guns 235each

Ratlings are not as good now they can be targeted, however I guess at only 60 points why not.


9x jezzails 180

That is a lot to lose to one panic check. I would split them into smaller units or drop them, they are very vurnrable. You could take another cannon and some more supprt units insted.


warp lightning cannon 100

These are amazing, I would take another.


7x gutter runners
poisoned hand weps 98

Make these tunnel teams, 3 man tunnel teams are amazing, plus you can always choose to scout them insted so as to march block.


3xpoioned wind globes 30

2x poisened wind globes 20



These are good. As well as the shooting they are good to be used for blocking charges etc since they dont cause panic.

Dux Ducis
21-02-2008, 07:40
Without slaves, I find it's almost impossible to win larger games. They really do help a huge amount.

Edit
21-02-2008, 17:50
slaves are key, 20 slaves vs 4 BoC minotaurs, you hit them in the flank you win

they kill 3 slaves(or less, with slaves I just assume # of attacks is number of dead slaves), leaving you us 17, 3 ranks + outnumber+ flank, you win by 2

I cant count the times ive destroyed elite cav, ogres and whatnot by simply hitting the flank with a 40 point unit of pure nothing

xragg
22-02-2008, 00:20
I am working on what to run in a 2k tourney in a couple weeks and will post my ideas later tonite. I have to agree that you have WAY too much in characters. Break that one unit with the bell and you are so far behind. While I was originally going for all magic, I am also haunted by the last time I did that. I miscast can easily end your turn since all you eggs are in that basket.

Slaves? My god how can you not spend at least 80 points for 2 units of cannon fodder, screens, misdirects, flanks, combat resolution, etc etc. I sadly only have 30 old school slave models, but just threw together 6 rat ogreish (slave drivers!) models to plop inside them to bulk the numbers to 54. I need to find 6 more appropiate models.