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The Phoenix
01-02-2008, 19:49
The purpose of this thread is to discuss what are better and worse numbers of dispell dice to have for your army. Obviously it is better to have as many dispell dice as possible, but practical considerations don't make this practical all the time (it's not fun for a lot of people, sometimes you want non-spell-casting characters, it may not be a good idea for your strategy as a whole to spend the points on a mage lord + 3 mages).

For purpose of discussion, I am thinking about 2250 point armies. The (easy) combinations to get are: 2-7 dice (no mages up to a mage lord + 3 mages). The problem is that one generally wants to roll enough dispell dice to ensure that a spell will be dispelled, so it's not good to have 1 die left over, it's just wasted.

Here are my preliminary thoughts:

2 dice: Bad, does not have a solid chance of dispelling anything except lower end bound spells and remains in play spells.

3 dice: Will generally dispell anything that uses 2 dice to cast, and most remains in play / bound spells with relative ease.

4 dice: Good for one dispell against anything cast by a level 2 mage with 3 dice. Not much use when split into 2 sets of 2, unless countering lower level bound spells.

5 dice: It probably isn't worth blowing 5 dice on one dispell and splitting 3-2 or 4-1 leaves one poor attempt. Consequenly, I'm inclined to believe that 5 is only marginally better than 4.

6 dice: Two dispells of 3 (ideal) or split 4-2 (backup). This seems like a good solid number, with a smaller chance of wasting dice.

7 dice: Can be split 3-4, or 3-2-2. While good, I don't actually see this being much more useful than 6 dice.

From these thoughts, I'm left thinking that 2 and 5 is a bad number of dispell dice to have. Also, I should note that 7 is probably overkill for any sort of fun game (it's also bad for army comp). That leaves 3, 4 or 6 dice; I'm inclined to think 4 is much better than 3, for having one good shot at stopping anything cast with 3 dice.

So, I guess my conclusion is that (all other considerations aside) it is probably best to go with 4 or 6 dispell dice (2 hero level wizards, or a lord and 2 heroes). This also works fairly well with power dice. It allows 2 level 2's to cast with 3 dice each (or 2 lvl 1's at 2 dice). If the lord is included, he has 3 or 4 dice to cast his spell, hopefully not wasting any power dice, or blowing them unnecessarily.

Any thoughts?

-Phoenix

MattKienbaum
01-02-2008, 20:24
Over all I agree with what you said, but rember that sometimes those despell dice can be gained without spending a hero slot on a mage. Such as Warror priest or some magic Items. so the Ideal "4 or 6 dispell dice" won't always cost you so dearly. also, a dispell scroll is pricless but if you can manage an arangement that makes the excessive you could relocate those points and thus save on the cost of dispell power.
For example in empire a mage cost 65 and a Warrior priest 90 A diference of 25, the same as a dispell scroll. what is of greater value to you. 1 dispell scroll or 6 dispell dice through the corse of a game.
basically is it the Ideal number of dispell dice we need to consider or the amount of dispell power per-turn?

Krootman
01-02-2008, 21:10
What about 2 scrolls and 6 dispell dice, I figure thats not really overkill and should be more then enough to get me through most games. I play wood elfs and run a branchwrath with a cluster of radiance and a level 1 with a caddy, it only costs around 280 and the branchwrath can actually hold her own in combat.

theunwantedbeing
01-02-2008, 21:21
I currently use 2 scrolls and 6 dice for my dark elf army.
From 2 mages that grant me 9 powerdice in total, this is generally enough to give a decent magic phase and prevent me from being mauled by my opponents magic phase (unless I am unlucky of course.....I hate throwing 4 dice at a spell or dispel attempt and barely getting 9)

Unless your facing a lot of bound items in addition to the enemy powerdice 6 and a scroll or 2 is generally plenty.
Of course you need to aim to diminish the number of dice the enemy throws at you by the midway point of the battle.

xragg
01-02-2008, 21:30
What about 2 scrolls and 6 dispell dice, I figure thats not really overkill and should be more then enough to get me through most games. I play wood elfs and run a branchwrath with a cluster of radiance and a level 1 with a caddy, it only costs around 280 and the branchwrath can actually hold her own in combat.

isnt that 2 scrolls and 5 dispel dice? anyway...

I dont worry too much about my dispel dice. When I go light on magic, I carry just enough to stop the big ones (basically a single lev 1 dispel caddy). Most armies will have 1 big spell you want to avoid. Having 2 dispel scrolls will help you avoid it the first two turns, and the 3 dispel dice will stop the #2 nasty they toss at you. Being light on magic usually means I am dominating another phase of the game, and only need 2 turns to avoid the big ones.

Now my skaven are a different story. I try to dominate magic with them. My grey seers eat warp tokens like its crack. Bound spells galore. It doesnt matter how heavy your magic defense are, you are still going to feel some pain from my skaven magic. Too bad they are a easily scared bunch and run away so easy, lol.

Lyonator
01-02-2008, 21:38
@ 2250, I rock a total of 6
(2 base + Lvl 2 + Lvl1 + 1 for Cluster of Radiants)
then one DS for good measure.
seems to work ok, obviously not going to save me from, say, magic heavy tzeench, but in a tournament/ all comers list, it works great.

Krootman
01-02-2008, 22:22
isnt that 2 scrolls and 5 dispel dice? anyway...

I dont worry too much about my dispel dice. When I go light on magic, I carry just enough to stop the big ones (basically a single lev 1 dispel caddy). Most armies will have 1 big spell you want to avoid. Having 2 dispel scrolls will help you avoid it the first two turns, and the 3 dispel dice will stop the #2 nasty they toss at you. Being light on magic usually means I am dominating another phase of the game, and only need 2 turns to avoid the big ones.

Now my skaven are a different story. I try to dominate magic with them. My grey seers eat warp tokens like its crack. Bound spells galore. It doesnt matter how heavy your magic defense are, you are still going to feel some pain from my skaven magic. Too bad they are a easily scared bunch and run away so easy, lol.

Yea I cant add lol, oh well 5 and 2 scrolls should be able to get me through most battles.

northwoodDreamer
02-02-2008, 02:19
@ 2250, I rock a total of 6
(2 base + Lvl 2 + Lvl1 + 1 for Cluster of Radiants)




2+1+1+1=5, no? Anyways, that's the same setup I plan on running in my Wood Elf army.

As for my Dwarfs... I figure since I don't get any magic of my own I might as well try to neutralize my opponent's magic phase too. Thus I usually have 6 or 7 dispel dice with the equivalent of a DS.

However, the games that I play are all 2000 points.

Krootman
02-02-2008, 02:52
2+1+1+1=5, no? Anyways, that's the same setup I plan on running in my Wood Elf army.

As for my Dwarfs... I figure since I don't get any magic of my own I might as well try to neutralize my opponent's magic phase too. Thus I usually have 6 or 7 dispel dice with the equivalent of a DS.

However, the games that I play are all 2000 points.

Well you only get one for a lvl 1 or lvl 2 so he would be getting 2 base +1 for a level 2+ 2 for a branchwrath with the cluster which is 5

Lyonator
02-02-2008, 05:07
my bad, fingers were moving faster than the gray matter.

lector#1
02-02-2008, 05:19
yeah i feel 6 with a ds or 2 is good but the opponents i have at 2k are very magic heavy so i tend to only have korhil on a chariot and then a level 3 mage and a level2 and a level 1 and 3-4 ds just to screw them over in the magic phase thats 6 from the mages 2 4 showing up and 4 ds so i kind of own the magic phase when it comes around

neo_ebrick
02-02-2008, 08:35
i play he alot and i find that korhil is great if you take teclis too. 475 points is a lot however. he gets 4 power dice plus 2 for showing plus 1-3 for his items = 7-10 power dice good plus irristable on all doubles except double 1's. as for dispel he gets 2 plus 2 for the army and again 1-3 =5-7 dispel dice, plus his dispel scroll. in 2000 points you can easily dominate magic phase in light - med magic heavy armies with only 475 points/1 lord

Dranthar
02-02-2008, 09:08
I think the ideal number of dispel dice really depends on what sort of list you're using. An army that's vulnerable to magic missles (eg. non-horde, or a few high-value low resiliance units) will be much less willing to let some of your opponents magic get off. An army like Vampire counts with masses of raisable zombies/skeletons could potentially all but ignore their opponents magic, simply because magic missles and the like will barely scratch his army.
On the other hand most Dark Elf armies probably can't afford to let their opponent let lose with the magic. That however, is balanced by the tendency for Dark Elves to be able to single out mages for assasination more easily than other armies might, so 3-4 DD with a pair of scrolls might be enough to keep them alive duing the opening turns.

It also depends on whether you have better things to spend those points/hero slots on. A pair of scroll caddies would probably shut down an opponents magic phase for much of the game, but that's 2 hero slots you're not using for other stuff.

My own Goblin army has two lvl 2 mages with a dispel scroll and the staff of sneaky stealing. That gives me 4 dice plus 1 from my opponent, plus a scroll to deal with those occasional emergencies. ;) The fact that my regiments are huge and cheap also helps me shrug off some spells my opponent might throw at me.

Concerning the use of 5 dice, I see it as able to reliably cancel any one spell per turn (4 dice) plus having a decent shot at neutralising a bound 3 item. If my opponents casting value is less than 10 I might consider using only 3 dice to dispel, leaving me with 2 dice to wipe out a bound spell or cancel another low-level spell.

oCoYoRoAoKo
03-02-2008, 20:35
well, in 2000 (high elves mind) i have 5 with 1 dispel scroll and +1 to dispel: 2 base + lvl4 + lvl 2. this seems to hold for the opening few turns to give me some time to kill one or two enemy mages.

Cy.

Copenhagan
03-02-2008, 20:48
How about 27 dispel dice at 2000 points is about right. no one is going to get any magic off. hehehe.

theunwantedbeing
03-02-2008, 20:56
How in gods name do you get 27 dispel dice at 2k?

Anything upto 20 seems do-able but beyond that I dont really see how...

Little Aaad
03-02-2008, 21:07
My army gets abouy 12. But I play Khorne.

Copenhagan
03-02-2008, 21:16
Sacred host of tepok with lizardmen and 4 level 1 skink priest and 20 units of skinks all but 2 10 men and the entire army has MR1. which is really really wrong.

for most games I have 4 dispel dice at 1500 and the same at 2000 unless I'm running a slann.

Kahadras
03-02-2008, 22:08
My planned 2000 point Empire army has six (two for turning up, two from the wizard lord, one from the battle wizard and one from the warrior priest). On top of this the battle wizard carries The Rod of Power for added DD if I need them. I don't carry any dispel scrolls because I feel they're overused by gamers. People are always suprised that I don't bring any but the Rod really helps out if I need to boost my magic defence.

Kahadras

theunwantedbeing
03-02-2008, 22:13
Ah the tepok list, the mark grants magical resistance to the units, not dispel dice.
You could get over 30 otherwise.

Ward.
03-02-2008, 22:16
I don't think the sacred host of tepok skinks generates a dispell dice as well as gaining MR1.

I find 4-6 dispell dice + scrolls in most pick up games around here to be sufficent.

EDIT: ninja'd

The Red Scourge
05-02-2008, 05:03
Personally I run 8 Dispel Dice.

There is nothing like owning the magic phase ;)

sainthale1988
05-02-2008, 10:34
for me it varies. for my archlector/ warroior priest army its 2+2+3 (7) with magic resistance for the arch lector as well (pope mobile). this is due to liking warrior priest fluff, rather than specifically trying to be anti magic (but it helps ;)).

My vampires are realy magic heavy for the offensive (Count + 3 necros + power famliar + ocassionaly black perift) so i get 2+4+1(+1) (7/8)

for my bests its much more subdued due to being focused on combat rather than anything else, but at 2250 id still take 2 shamans, one being a caddie so i only get 2+2 (4) with 2 scrolls.

as a general rule of thumb i hate getting out magiced (a run in with a magic heavy DE army when i just got started years ago scared me deeply lol!).