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Baltar
01-02-2008, 20:57
During the intervening millions of years in between the War in Heaven and the birth of She Who Thirsts, as the Eldar ruled the galaxy as basically omnipotent overlords, why didn't they bother to get rid of the Old Ones' other creation?

Did they even make a concerted effort to do so?

jfrazell
01-02-2008, 21:05
One of the many problems with the shoe horned in Old One fluff.
*Why didn't they take out the orks?
*Why didn't they take out the Necron tomb worlds? Those could have popped open at any time. They had 60MM years to develop their uber tech and it would have been relatively easy to remove a continuing threat. After all, had Hitler escaped with 20 tank divisions and the rhine valley's industrial production to South America, would the allies have allowed it?

Necronlord3
01-02-2008, 21:07
First off, the Krork/Ork are nearly impossible to 'totally' destroy. That is how the green menace has survived throughout the galaxy. You can destroy every ork to a man and their remains will still produce spores which slowly over time will create a future Ork colony. Secondly, the Krork where basically created as the Old Ones answer to fighting the Necrons. The Necrons are strong, solid, hard to kill warriors and the Krork where created as a mass, swarming, also hard to totally kill force to combat the Necron ground forces.

I think the eldar know that they could/should not exterminate any of the Old Ones races because for the future all will be needed to defeat the ancient enemy.

nurgle_boy
01-02-2008, 21:30
I imagine the eldar were to busy having kinky sex with anything that moved, in an attempt to bring for the overfie... err... Slaanesh...

and unintentionally, of course :rolleyes:

Along with this, exterminating a race is hardly light work, especially when one reproduces with a patch of damp, and the others have the Ctan on their side...

Commander Dante
01-02-2008, 21:35
They were incapable, Orks breed like super bunnies.

Ashnari Doomsong
01-02-2008, 21:38
Or, maybe... they didn't care enough about them to bother. They were capable of removing them from places they wanted them removed from, so...

PondaNagura
01-02-2008, 21:39
there was also the whole Enslaver issue to deal with. and they didn't rule the galaxy, just a corner of it, with webway connections to certain areas around the galaxy.

Dominus_Serui
01-02-2008, 21:55
And that was an image I did not need....nor did I think the Eldar had any issue with the Krork at the time?

Skyriss
01-02-2008, 22:56
As for why the Eldar did not fly around blasting Necron Tomb Worlds, well think it over for a few minutes before you jump on the "zomg sucky shoe-horned fluff" bandwagon.

The Eldar race was on the way to being obliterated by the C'tan. Various encounters with the Star Gods left deep scars on the Eldar race (the tainting of Khaine, the Dragon's campaign of extermination, the fear of the return of the Outsider). It is safe to say that the Eldar were deeply aware of how monstrous a threat the C'tan and their Necron slaves could be when their minds were set to a task.

Furthermore, the Eldar's creator-race, the vaunted Old Ones, were effectively wiped out before their very eyes. That would throw an already shaky stance on their "place" in the Galaxy well out of whack.

As mentioned, the Enslaver Plague had to be dealt with. Once it, and the rest of the loose pieces from the War in Heaven were taken care of, the Eldar were probably left scratching their heads. "Just what do we do now?".

Given all of this, the Eldar were probably incredibly reluctant to diturb the Necron Tombs - for fear of rousing the sleeping monsters once again, and this time there would be no race of Old Ones to equalise the balance of power. Better to let the sleeping unstoppable monster stay sleeping. This fits in with the usual way the Eldar deal with Chaos and so forth - seal it up, hang signs that say "Danger - Evil Warp Monsters Here" (written in runes only an Eldar can read of course) and then abandon it to space.

Similarly, the Krork were one of the few other creations of the Old Ones to survive the apocalypse - perhaps the Eldar thought it better to leave them be, in case the C'Tan ever returned? Again, a very Eldar thing to do. Also don't rule out the simple sentiment of "Hey, we've just watched 90% of life get wiped out and half the Galaxy blown up - let's not add to that for a while".

Iracundus
01-02-2008, 23:05
The Eldar probably did exterminate Orks from areas the Eldar wanted or deemed important but the Orks are a very resilient race on a galactic scale. The Eldar empire at its height was stated explicitly in the Eldar codices to be secure from outside threats.

The Orks as a race are like cockroaches. They are resilient and breed all over the place. Humans in the analogy would be like Eldar. We try and keep the roaches out of certain places, and kill them if we find them there. They don't truly threaten us on a large scale, but neither do we or can we wipe them out totally as a species either.

DantesInferno
01-02-2008, 23:20
One of the many problems with the shoe horned in Old One fluff.
*Why didn't they take out the orks?
*Why didn't they take out the Necron tomb worlds? Those could have popped open at any time. They had 60MM years to develop their uber tech and it would have been relatively easy to remove a continuing threat. After all, had Hitler escaped with 20 tank divisions and the rhine valley's industrial production to South America, would the allies have allowed it?

Neither of them are really major issues. Here's how Asdrubael Vect explains it:


A long, long time ago, over a thousand of your generations ago in fact, our people ruled across the heavens. Few races could oppose our might, and of those most ancient and malignant powers that could, all were dormant at that time. We were wise enough to let them slumber, unlike your own folk, I might add, who could well bring about the doom of us all with their blundering around. Be that as it may, there were none who could defy our will. We spread across the glittering stars, and brought glory and beauty to countless worlds, much as you humans bring pollution and ugliness to the stars with your presence now. There was nothing we could not achieve, for our minds and our technology were perfectly wedded together. A mere thought could be captured and harnessed by our wonderful machines, so that we ourselves did not have to sully ourselves with physical labor. We constructed artificial creatures to farm for us, fight for us, explore for us.


So for the Orks, the Eldar didn't bother to exterminate them because the Orks are notoriously difficult to eradicate (ask the Imperials on Armageddon). Furthermore, the Eldar had sufficiently advanced technology so that the Orks didn't pose a real threat, either to Eldar galactic dominance, or to individual Eldar worlds. There may have also been a reluctance to wipe out an Old One-created brother race: who knows how the Eldar myths of the War in Heaven featured the Krork, if they did at all.

Hell, given the Eldar mindset at the time, the Orks could have been deliberately left alive to give young, bloodthirsty Eldar something to hunt (Predator, anyone...).

And as for the Necrons and the C'tan, the Eldar certainly had no intention of waking up the long-forgotten terrors of their racial myths and possibly restarting their apocalypse. As far as they knew, the C'tan were sleeping for good.

EDIT: *voices general agreement with Skyriss and Iracundus*

Commander Dante
01-02-2008, 23:45
Also one should consider the prospect of hunting down and finding all the tombs. and as we all know if so much of necron force is destroyed they all phase out, dead and all.

dr.oetk3r
01-02-2008, 23:55
I imagine the eldar were to busy having kinky sex with anything that moved, in an attempt to bring for the overfie... err... Slaanesh...



Yep, probably the case.

thechosenone
02-02-2008, 02:09
will this become another "Fluff i want to shoot thread" aimed at Old One Fluff.

There is no reason to assume killing off the orks would have been easier for a galaxy spanning eldar race as it its nearly impossible for a galaxy spanning human race.

Its just much easier to answer the question "why didn't the orks wipe out the eldar" that sort of answer is easy and spelled out for us. They don't get along long enough to do that.

The shoe horning concept of old one fluff, just like necrons, is so petty most of the time. Its not as if the anicent history of the universe in forty k was explained and they retconned the whole thing. You didn't know anything an=bout the old galaxy until the necron codex and eldar codex latest edition. If you don't like the war in heaven, that's fine but what is it "shoe Horned" in between. The big gap of early cosmos and the emperor's crusade?

Kage2020
02-02-2008, 04:03
There have been some good (and some not-so-good) points made on both side of the camps, here. In the end, though, regardless of "retconning" or "revisionism" or whatever, it is that way because GW decided. All forms of narrative contrivance ultimately come back to that and, for the fans, all that is left is to try and interpret it through some form of coherent approach...

Kage

FrankManic
02-02-2008, 05:40
The eldar did exterminate the Orks. Like, twelve, maybe fifteen thousand times. They just didn't exterminate them hard enough. Greenskins are a stain that you just can't wash out, unless you use straight, undiluted simple green, which, in the throes of their decadence, the Eldar weren't will to use (It eats your finger prints off).

kikkoman
02-02-2008, 08:11
I imagine the eldar were to busy having kinky sex with anything that moved

krorks included, yes?

Simon Sez
02-02-2008, 09:18
Whats this I hear about the ancient Eldar wielding artificial fighters?

Did anyone fight for themselves in the good old days?!!!

Imperium-Men of Iron

Eldar- Artificial Constructs

Tau- Drones

C'Tan- Necrons

Old Ones- pretty well every race under the sun(s)

What a lazy, lazy galaxy this is!

Francis29
02-02-2008, 13:30
weren't the men of iron the predessesors of the space marines?

anyway i think the eldar wouldn't kill the krok as they were created by the old ones as were the eldar. this makes them cousins of a sort in the eldar eyes and the eldar don't like killing family members. anyway the krok might well be needed to fight the necrons in the far future, the eldar probaly foresaw this and saw that they needed the krok to beat the necrons

Champsguy
02-02-2008, 15:10
The Eldar definitely don't see the Orks as cousins. There's no love, no brotherhood. The Eldar are just lazy.

Eldar #1: "Hey, we could blow up the Necron tomb worlds and wipe out the Orks, making the galaxy safe forever. With our tech it'll take us like 20 minutes."
Eldar #2: "Or we could watch a 13 year old girl have sex with a donkey."
Eldar #1: "When you put it that way, it's not even a choice."
Eldar #2: "High five!"
Eldar #1: "We'll wipe out those hostile races tomorrow."
Eldar #2: "Yep, tomorrow. Certainly tomorrow."

Six hundred million years later...

--

Of course the Eldar are going to talk crap about Humans being too stupid to leave sleeping evils alone. That's their way. You don't think Vect is going to say "Yeah, see, we could have wiped out our ancient racial enemies, but man, that's all the way on the other side of the galaxy." "Don't you have the webway, so it's all of like, 50 feet?" "That's not the point!" The Eldar want to make themselves look good, not a bunch of cosmic procrastinators who lost their empire because they thought 2girls1cup looked like an awesome idea.

Commander Dante
02-02-2008, 15:55
It has nothing to do with laziness! As advanced as the Eldar were it would be nearly impossible to commit genocide on such a galactic scale espicaialy against a race that A: breeds like rabbits on ecstasy or cant die, B: fights back furiously and 'arder! C:probably occupy more planets then you do.

Brother Siccarius
02-02-2008, 16:50
there was also the whole Enslaver issue to deal with. and they didn't rule the galaxy, just a corner of it, with webway connections to certain areas around the galaxy.

This was what I was going to bring up. The only reason the C'tan went to sleep was because of the Enslaver Plague going after their food. The Eldar were fighting for their lives against a race that hunts down and eats psykers rather than just everyone, and they were prime targets. The Krorks were likely fighting the same thing.

By the time the Enslaver Plague was over, Chaos had come supreme (actually that was the reason why it was over). So they had to dedicate themselves to fighting and studying this other abomination to psykers, being the intuitives they are, they couldn't avoid the chance of study. While the Krorks, protected by their own supremely powerful gods, spread like wildfire that was only held back by various alien empires, and extinguished somewhat during The Crusade many millenia later.

As they studied chaos they became more and more complacent, and started the events that led to the Fall. We are pretty well informed up to that point. I like to think that the Craftworld eldar were the more knowledgeable about Chaos, possibly being the ones who fought it and studied it. Eldrad is a good example of this (considering that we can now place him as being alive very close to the fall due to Fulgrim).

The short answer is that it was one disaster after another for the Eldar. They were created for war, and they had a part in every one that has popped up in the intervening years.

malika
02-02-2008, 17:15
Blowing up a tomb world might destroy Necrons, however there is no clear proof of this. Its very possible that all the Necrons present teleport to another world. The Eldar wanted to avoid waking up the "Sleeping Ones" (another name for the Necrons) since they might not be able to beat them. The Blackstone Fortresses MIGHT kill a C'tan, six of them were fired at the Void Dragon, but that only weakened him, not killed him and its very possible that the Void Dragon is completely healed but has no waken up yet. So...the Eldar wouldn't go on a rampage of destroying every Tombworld since it would wake up more than what they can handle.

Baltar
02-02-2008, 17:33
Blowing up a tomb world might destroy Necrons, however there is no clear proof of this.

We already had this discussion. You'd be wise not to bring it up again. Ever.

malika
02-02-2008, 18:21
Where did this discussion already take place? It is something that got mentioned in the second post of this thread, however that doesn't seem to be a problem to you...just when I question it is when it becomes a problem... :rolleyes:

Lord Damocles
02-02-2008, 18:46
*Why didn't they take out the orks?

option 1 - Orks are damned hard to get rid of, so why bother ridding areas other than your own empire of them?
option 2 - The same reason they didn't wipe out humanity (as told in Codex: Necrons); the galaxy had seen enough bloodshed, and the Eldar wanted a little life to come back.


*Why didn't they take out the Necron tomb worlds?

The Necrons probobly would have reawoken and started killing everyone again. Causing another galactic genoside most likely wasn't top of the Eldar's to do list.

Iracundus
02-02-2008, 22:24
Blowing up a tomb world might destroy Necrons, however there is no clear proof of this. Its very possible that all the Necrons present teleport to another world.

We have been through this before in enormous length. There has been no proof whatsoever for this. Over and over again Necron fanboys desperate to avoid having to admit Necrons can actually suffer losses keep making this same "fact" up. If you want to make a positive claim, then back it up with proof.

malika
02-02-2008, 22:29
We have been through this before in enormous length. There has been no proof whatsoever for this. Over and over again Necron fanboys desperate to avoid having to admit Necrons can actually suffer losses keep making this same "fact" up. If you want to make a positive claim, then back it up with proof.

There is no concrete proof for either argument, right now its all speculation. However, I wonder if the Eldar would actually want to risk waking them all up in an attempt to prove it to be possible or not possible.

Iracundus
02-02-2008, 22:36
There is no concrete proof for either argument...

In which case the standard default negative stance is used in the absence of positive proof. People still make the logical fallacy of appealing to negative proof.

From wikipedia:

"Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the responsibility of the person who is making the bold claim to prove it. In short, X is not proven simply because "not X" cannot be proven "

In this case, the claim is that the Necrons have some new ability, never mentioned, never witnessed in GW background. There isn't any proof for its existence. There isn't any need to actively prove its nonexistence as the burden of proof rests on those trying to make this claim.

malika
02-02-2008, 22:50
In which case the standard default negative stance is used in the absence of positive proof. People still make the logical fallacy of appealing to negative proof.
Of course, the Eldar don't want to wake up the Necrons and will thus try to prevent that from happening. They don't know what the after-effects of destroying a Tombworld will be, even if that were possible. We don't know if the Necrons could be beaten by simply destroying the tombworlds, there is no proof for either claim, your story from wikipedia about picking positive or negative proof has to effect here. We simply dont know, Im not saying that they can or cannot be destroyed, Im saying that we dont know, the Eldar dont know and wouldnt risk their survival just to proof that theory.

Possible scenarios:
-Tombworld destroyed, necrons destroyed, nobody wakes up;
-Tombworld destroyed, necrons teleport away, nobody wakes up;
-Tombworld destroyed, necrons teleport away, other necrons wake up;
-Tombworld intact, necrons ok, nobody wakes up;
-Tombworld intact, necrons ok, other necrons wake up.

Only the first scenario has the desired result, the other four are bad.

The Eldar have been trying to prevent the Necrons from waking up, there are various background sources and battlereports about the Eldar attacking the Imperium in an attempt to prevent the "Sleepings Ones" (the Necrons) from waking up. Another factor in this are the C'tan, so far they have no been defeated. The technology that comes closest to beating the C'tan are the Blackstone Fortresses, and even those were incapable of killing the C'tan, just look at what happened to the Void Dragon. He got beaten up yes, but was not killed. This means that if the C'tan would all wake up, the Eldar have no technology to actually defeat them. This would be another reason for letting them sleep.

Iracundus
02-02-2008, 22:54
We don't know if the Necrons could be beaten by simply destroying the tombworlds...

Wrong we DO know the Necrons can be beaten by destroying their tombs. It's stated from an omniscient narrative POV that this is the strategy to end the Necron threat.


Ultimately the only way to destroy the Necron threat is to seek out their t ombs and destroy them. - Necron Codex p. 61, 1st column, 1st paragraph, 1st sentence.

Necron fanboys are consistently showing complete or willful ignorance of the whole burden of proof concept. Just because there is no active proof for a default negative position, doesn't suddenly mean "possibilities" meaning they can make whatever they want up to make the Necrons uber.

malika
02-02-2008, 22:58
Oh, ok...my bad then! Eventhough narrative POV is always very questionable...

But you would then have to ask, did the Eldar know where all the Tombworlds are? This would still not defeat the C'tan though, who are the actual threat here. Also what are the consequences of destroying a Tombworld, wouldnt other Necrons wake up? In other worlds, you would need to be destroying many Tombworlds at the same time and at a rapid pace in order to prevent them from retaliating and beating back those who try to exterminate them. In Pre-Fall times the Eldar had no real interest of starting such a large and difficult military campaign and after the Fall they have become fully unable to do something on a gigantic scale such as this.

Lord Inquisitor
02-02-2008, 23:16
During the intervening millions of years in between the War in Heaven and the birth of She Who Thirsts, as the Eldar ruled the galaxy as basically omnipotent overlords, why didn't they bother to get rid of the Old Ones' other creation?

Did they even make a concerted effort to do so?
Who said they didn't?

The Krork are dead (or turned into debased animals, as some fluff suggests). Only their servants remain - and Orks and Gretchen are just about impossible to erradicate. One might assume that the lofty Eldar wouldn't be interested in the straggling survivors of the Brain Boyz - at least until the Fall, after which the Eldar have had their own problems to deal with.

Then again, perhaps the Eldar were best buddies with the Krork - they were both direct creations of the Old Ones after all. The two races might have fought side-by-side against the C'Tan conceivably.

Since the Krork aren't around anymore, who's to know?

DantesInferno
02-02-2008, 23:19
Wrong we DO know the Necrons can be beaten by destroying their tombs. It's stated from an omniscient narrative POV that this is the strategy to end the Necron threat.

Even if it is stated from "an omniscient narrative POV" (how truly objective are pieces in Codices, anyway...) that the Necrons can be beaten by destroying their tombs, the Eldar certainly don't know that.


Necron fanboys are consistently showing complete or willful ignorance of the whole burden of proof concept. Just because there is no active proof for a default negative position, doesn't suddenly mean "possibilities" meaning they can make whatever they want up to make the Necrons uber.

I'm sure azimaith and Sekhmet will tell you I'm the least likely person around here to be described as a Necron fanboy, but even I think you're going too far here. Burden of proof arguments only apply if people are actually trying to prove that something's definitely true. They don't apply when they admit they're only trying to show that it's possible, or even probable.

There is active proof for the proposition that the Necrons can teleport between tombworlds. There is also no proof the other way, that the Necrons can't. So given that neither side can be estabilshed for certain, it's important to then go for other factors which may affect the probability of it being true. You'd look at how the Necrons teleport from the battlefield back to their tombworlds, between ships and tombworlds, whether or not they appear to be able to communicate between tombworlds, and so on. And given all their other capabilities, it's fairly clear that there is at least a possibility that they can teleport between tombworlds. No one's pretending that they definitely can, though (at least, not in this thread).


This was what I was going to bring up. The only reason the C'tan went to sleep was because of the Enslaver Plague going after their food. The Eldar were fighting for their lives against a race that hunts down and eats psykers rather than just everyone, and they were prime targets. The Krorks were likely fighting the same thing.

By the time the Enslaver Plague was over, Chaos had come supreme (actually that was the reason why it was over). So they had to dedicate themselves to fighting and studying this other abomination to psykers, being the intuitives they are, they couldn't avoid the chance of study. While the Krorks, protected by their own supremely powerful gods, spread like wildfire that was only held back by various alien empires, and extinguished somewhat during The Crusade many millenia later.

As they studied chaos they became more and more complacent, and started the events that led to the Fall. We are pretty well informed up to that point. I like to think that the Craftworld eldar were the more knowledgeable about Chaos, possibly being the ones who fought it and studied it. Eldrad is a good example of this (considering that we can now place him as being alive very close to the fall due to Fulgrim).

The short answer is that it was one disaster after another for the Eldar. They were created for war, and they had a part in every one that has popped up in the intervening years.

It's probably worth pointing out that there was a 60 000 000 year period between the Enslaver Plague and the Eldar Fall. Even if the Eldar didn't rule the galaxy the whole time from the Enslaver Plague to humanity's Great Crusade, "one disaster after another" doesn't quite cover the length of time involved....


The Krork are dead (or turned into debased animals, as some fluff suggests). Only their servants remain - and Orks and Gretchen are just about impossible to erradicate. One might assume that the lofty Eldar wouldn't be interested in the straggling survivors of the Brain Boyz - at least until the Fall, after which the Eldar have had their own problems to deal with.

....

Since the Krork aren't around anymore, who's to know?

The Deceiver, at least, thinks of modern Orks and the Krork as the same thing:


"What were you seeking?" whispered Lakius. The thing's ferocious smile was spread almost ear to ear.

"Knowledge, mostly. I wanted to know how the galaxy had fared, who was left after the plague. You can't imagine my surprise on finding your kind and the Krork scattered everywhere. I've seen you humans trying to forge an empire in the name of a corpse. I have seen your churches to the machine. Racially, your fear and superstition are most gratifying. You make excellent subjects."

Lord Inquisitor
03-02-2008, 00:15
The Deceiver, at least, thinks of modern Orks and the Krork as the same thing:
True enough, but then it is hardly surprising that he would refer to all greenskins as a single entity [edit: and for the author to be able to give another unsubtle hint to the old-ones-krork-ork recon!]. Indeed, the Brain Boyz were presumably pretty similar to the modern greenskins in physiology. However, since we know the Old Ones created the Krork, and the Brain Boyz created the Orks and the Gretchen as warrior and slave species respectively, probably engineering the squig autoecosystem in the process. If the Krork and the Orks are connected at all, the Krork must be the Brain Boyz. My point was just that the Orks are built for war - presumably they were once an army under the control of the Brain Boyz. I was just pointing out that the Brain Boyz might have been former allies - or indeed vanquished foes - of the pre-Fall Eldar.

azimaith
03-02-2008, 00:20
Even if it is stated from "an omniscient narrative POV" (how truly objective are pieces in Codices, anyway...) that the Necrons can be beaten by destroying their tombs, the Eldar certainly don't know that.

The omniscient narrative POV stance is stupid anyhow. The BGB states necrons have: "False bodies impervious to the weapons of their enemies." Thats also 3rd person omniscient but its obviously *wrong* because we know you can shoot them to "death" (well bust them)



I'm sure azimaith and Sekhmet will tell you I'm the least likely person around here to be described as a Necron fanboy, but even I think you're going too far here. Burden of proof arguments only apply if people are actually trying to prove that something's definitely true. They don't apply when they admit they're only trying to show that it's possible, or even probable.

Iracandus likes to throw out terms like burden of proof and occams razor but he doesn't know what they really mean or how they are applied. Even more so hes yet to even provide the burden of proof for his own arguments. Claiming "we don't know" is not a positive proof argument. Claiming "They can't" is, thus the burden of proof for that sort of thing would be on the person claiming they can or can't do something. There is no default negative stance, especially not in the presence of inference from other sources.

Baltar
03-02-2008, 02:01
GOD LET IT GO LET IT GO!!! This is about the Eldar and the Krork. This whole Necron discussion has been beat to death harder and more violently that the ruins of Britney Spears' career.


just when I question it is when it becomes a problem...

Oh, right, because I care enough to target you specifically. Get real.

Iracundus
03-02-2008, 03:27
Iracandus likes to throw out terms like burden of proof and occams razor but he doesn't know what they really mean or how they are applied. Even more so hes yet to even provide the burden of proof for his own arguments. Claiming "we don't know" is not a positive proof argument. Claiming "They can't" is, thus the burden of proof for that sort of thing would be on the person claiming they can or can't do something. There is no default negative stance, especially not in the presence of inference from other sources.

I know perfectly well how to use logic, so do not attempt to disguise your own utter ignorance and blatant Necron worship by attacking others. It is you who are laboring under consistently mistaken notions of burdens of proof. There isn't any evidence for any sort of Necron recall teleportation aside from battlefield direct to tomb. That in itself was described in a WD as being more the tomb of origin constantly emitting recall signals and then teleporting if no override from the Necron in question. There is no evidence of tomb to tomb transferring, let alone sudden last moment tomb to tomb transfers when one tomb is destroyed. When we don't have evidence of such powers, it is WRONG for you to consistently claim they DO have such powers. That is a positive claim. Then to base further arguments off of that made up assumption is only compounding the error. In the absence of proof of evidence of powers, there IS a default. You don't go around assuming people are controlled by little gremlins just because there is no proof to the contrary. There isn't any proof of gremlins so we operate on the default that there are no gremlins. The exact same goes for the Necrons.

azimaith
03-02-2008, 04:52
-
Once again posturing and vapid non-sense as you take words out of context and make your own strawman argument. IRacandus you couldn't debate your way out of a wet paper bag because you don't understand the concepts your debating. As such your simply on ignore as attempting to debate with you is like debating a rock. Completely pointless because its incapable of understanding whats going on much less using logic.


I know perfectly well how to use logic, so do not attempt to disguise your own utter ignorance and blatant Necron worship by attacking others.

Ad hominem attacks. Standard for you.



It is you who are laboring under consistently mistaken notions of burdens of proof. There isn't any evidence for any sort of Necron recall teleportation aside from battlefield direct to tomb.

And thus the answer is unknown. Not a negative. You need proof for that.



That in itself was described in a WD as being more the tomb of origin constantly emitting recall signals and then teleporting if no override from the Necron in question.

A theory from an imperial scholar, not gospel.



There is no evidence of tomb to tomb transferring, let alone sudden last moment tomb to tomb transfers when one tomb is destroyed.

Thus the result is *unknown*. We know they teleport in a variety of fashions besides simply recalling. Thus we can't categorically deny the possiblity because its not specifically evidenced. Thats only a result of a theory that is ridiculous, which this is not.



When we don't have evidence of such powers, it is WRONG for you to consistently claim they DO have such powers.

I don't claim they do have such powers. I claim we don't know what powers they have. You constantly claim they *don't* have such powers, when there is no evidence they do not. The burden on proof is on the person putting forth the theory. I don't put fortha theory, I say: "We don't know." You put forth the theory and thus misuse burden of proof out of apparent ignorance the way the concept works.



That is a positive claim.

We don't know isn't a positive claim. Its a fact because its never specifically referenced.



Then to base further arguments off of that made up assumption is only compounding the error. In the absence of proof of evidence of powers, there IS a default.

No there isn't a default. The default you simply make up with no evidence of any kind. We say "We don't know" you say; 'They can't" your the only one making a positive statement thus required to provide the burden of proof as those saying we don't know are not putting forth a position at all.



You don't go around assuming people are controlled by little gremlins just because there is no proof to the contrary. There isn't any proof of gremlins so we operate on the default that there are no gremlins. The exact same goes for the Necrons.
Gremlins contolling people is unsubstantiated by secondary evidence. Necrons teleporting through multiple venues is not unsubstantiated.

Iracundus
03-02-2008, 07:19
Once again posturing and vapid non-sense as you take words out of context and make your own strawman argument. IRacandus you couldn't debate your way out of a wet paper bag because you don't understand the concepts your debating. As such your simply on ignore as attempting to debate with you is like debating a rock. Completely pointless because its incapable of understanding whats going on much less using logic.

You are attempting to confuse your own juvenile and inadequate understanding of logic and debate by making things up and resorting to ad hominem. That was your first response when called upon to attempt to prove your unsubstantiated claim.

When you have an unknown, and there is NO evidence to the contrary that there ARE powers, the standard default IS a negative claim. Claiming that the negative claim is a positive claim means only that you need to read up on some logic first.

Can you prove there aren't master chickens controlling the world? No? Then how about we speculate on that...or how about purple hamsters? The point of these things is absence of negative proof doesn't mean the positve claim suddenly becomes true. You can say the chicken conspiracy is an unknown. However that in no sense means one lives one's life on the possibility that chickens control the world. One operates in the negative in the absence of positive proof. In no sense are these strawman arguments as they are the natural consequence of the type of flawed and incorrect reasoning you were attempting to use. There are a million crackpot theories that have no definitive negative proof. That doesn't mean one should attempt to live as if they were all true or even possibly true. Attempting to try and base arguments on the positive claim just because there isn't a negative proof is fallacious.

Get that through your thick head first before attempting to debate. You consistently and repeatedly appeal to the same false logical fallacies that were addressed originally by asking you to seek some education and read up on burden of proof. What is evident is you took no time to do so as you are still making the same errors

DantesInferno
03-02-2008, 07:35
You are attempting to confuse your own juvenile and inadequate understanding of logic and debate by making things up and resorting to ad hominem. That was your first response when called upon to attempt to prove your unsubstantiated claim.

When you have an unknown, and there is NO evidence to the contrary that there ARE powers, the standard default IS a negative claim. Claiming that the negative claim is a positive claim means only that you need to read up on some logic first.

Can you prove there aren't master chickens controlling the world? No? Then how about we speculate on that...or how about purple hamsters? The point of these things is absence of negative proof doesn't mean the positve claim suddenly becomes true. You can say the chicken conspiracy is an unknown. However that in no sense means one lives one's life on the possibility that chickens control the world. One operates in the negative in the absence of positive proof. In no sense are these strawman arguments as they are the natural consequence of the type of flawed and incorrect reasoning you were attempting to use. There are a million crackpot theories that have no definitive negative proof. That doesn't mean one should attempt to live as if they were all true or even possibly true. Attempting to try and base arguments on the positive claim just because there isn't a negative proof is fallacious.

Get that through your thick head first before attempting to debate. You consistently and repeatedly appeal to the same false logical fallacies that were addressed originally by asking you to seek some education and read up on burden of proof. What is evident is you took no time to do so as you are still making the same errors

This is really going far too far, and going way off the topic.

Your purple hamster and master chicken examples aren't good analogies at all. We don't have any evidence that chickens control world, and we do have plenty of evidence that they don't. This allows us to assign an (infinitesimally low) probability to the proposition that such a race of master chickens. What makes the belief in the existence or probable existence of such a race of master chickens irrational is that it ignores all the massive weight of evidence we have that the universe operates on physical bodies according to physical laws which don't involve master chickens.

No one's saying that the Necrons can definitely teleport between tombworlds. People are saying that they might be able to, and that's not a problem. We simply don't know enough about the Necrons' teleportation capabilities to assign a reliable probability to the proposition that they can teleport between tombworlds. The conclusion therefore is that they might be able to teleport, just that we don't know enough to be sure one way or the other. There's nothing at all remotely problematic about saying that, in fact it's a perfectly rational response to the information we have.

To try to rehabilitate the topic somewhat, what do people think about my throwaway suggestion that one reason the Orks may not have been exterminated is that they form a really useful race for young, bloodthirsty pre-Fall Eldar to fight for sport? Given what we know about the behaviour of Eldar in the lead-up to the Fall towards their own kind, it seems perfectly possible that the Eldar would have liked hunting other races as one of their forms of entertainment. Think Eldar versions of Predator.

It certainly fits with how Eldar Corsairs and Dark Eldar behave, or at least would behave if their technology was still sufficiently advanced so that the lesser races posed no real threat.

MadDogMike
03-02-2008, 07:57
Another factor in the Eldar not killing the Krork or Necrons off is that post-War in Heaven I expect they were REALLY screwed up, if the Enslaver plague was nasty enough the C'Tan decided napping was better. Obviously they survived and eventually thrived, but I imagine it took a while for them to build up the empire that eventually self-destructed. Give the orks a long time to reproduce and spread and the Necrons to conceal themselves, and dealing with either might have been impossible for the Eldar, even assuming their racial ego pre-Fall didn't have them assume neither one was a threat anymore. If you assume the vast majority of Eldar were like the Dark Eldar today, I can easily see them screwing off on the job in the name of their own internal struggles and hedonism.

Iracundus
03-02-2008, 08:05
Your purple hamster and master chicken examples aren't good analogies at all. We don't have any evidence that chickens control world, and we do have plenty of evidence that they don't. This allows us to assign an (infinitesimally low) probability to the proposition that such a race of master chickens. What makes the belief in the existence or probable existence of such a race of master chickens irrational is that it ignores all the massive weight of evidence we have that the universe operates on physical bodies according to physical laws which don't involve master chickens.

Can you prove they aren't super secret master chickens (or insert other improbable group) controlling the world via human pawns? You can't ultimately definitively prove it totally. To use the same logical fallacy and erroneous reasoning as the Necron apologists then the only conclusion then would be it's "unknown", and we should make contingency plans just in case there really are chickens in control.



No one's saying that the Necrons can definitely teleport between tombworlds. People are saying that they might be able to, and that's not a problem. We simply don't know enough about the Necrons' teleportation capabilities to assign a reliable probability to the proposition that they can teleport between tombworlds. The conclusion therefore is that they might be able to teleport, just that we don't know enough to be sure one way or the other. There's nothing at all remotely problematic about saying that, in fact it's a perfectly rational response to the information we have.




The problem lies in Necron fanboys that chant "unknown" and then go on to base assumptions on the unproven positive claim that there are such capabilities, then conveniently falling back on the "you can't prove they don't, it's all unknown" excuse when asked to prove it.

The point about the whole burden of proof is the same rationale as the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle used in courts. The innocence claim is the negative claim and is used as default in the absence of positive proof of guilt. It is entirely possible to have lack of definitive negative proof of innocence while lacking positive proof of guilt so technically one could say the issue is still "unknown" but the negative claim is the default claim until proven otherwise. There isn't a third verdict of "unknown so we will neither release the suspect nor convict him". That is the same principle of burden of proof that is being applied to Necron capabilities or for that matter to any race's abilities. Until there is evidence of existence, nonexistence is the default.



If you assume the vast majority of Eldar were like the Dark Eldar today, I can easily see them screwing off on the job in the name of their own internal struggles and hedonism.

They weren't. The Dark Eldar are a snapshot of Eldar society immediately pre-Fall. Prior to that the Eldar were more like the Craftworld Eldar (minus the Paths) or WHFB High Elves in terms of aesthetics and theme. It was only after a long era of security and dominance that the pre-Fall Eldar started becoming increasingly inward and hedonistic. The Craftworld Eldar are more an attempt at reconstructing that age of glory before things went downhill, but they differ in that they have the entire Path system overlying their daily life.

DantesInferno
03-02-2008, 08:22
The problem lies in Necron fanboys that chant "unknown" and then go on to base assumptions on the unproven positive claim that there are such capabilities, then conveniently falling back on the "you can't prove they don't, it's all unknown" excuse when asked to prove it.

No one has actually said that in this thread though. No one is trying to definitively prove anything, just show that it's possible. And it definitely is possible.

Asking them to prove whether what they're saying is right is just as pointless as them asking you to prove what they're saying is wrong.


The point about the whole burden of proof is the same rationale as the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle used in courts. The innocence claim is the negative claim and is used as default in the absence of positive proof of guilt. It is entirely possible to have lack of definitive negative proof of innocence while lacking positive proof of guilt so technically one could say the issue is still "unknown" but the negative claim is the default claim until proven otherwise.

Just FYI, beyond reasonable doubt isn't the only legal test that's used. "On the balance of probabilities" is the standard of proof in civil cases (it's why O J Simpson could be found not guilty for murder but still liable in for wrongful death in civil court).


That is the same principle of burden of proof that is being applied to Necron capabilities or for that matter to any race's abilities. Until there is evidence of existence, nonexistence is the default.

But there is indirect evidence that the Necrons might be capable of such feats. They can obviously teleport between world X and their tombworld and/or spaceships. The Necron Codex describes them as masters of the physical universe. And so on. It doesn't amount to definitive proof, of course, but it's still evidence one way or another.


Can you prove they aren't super secret master chickens (or insert other improbable group) controlling the world via human pawns? You can't ultimately definitively prove it totally. To use the same logical fallacy and erroneous reasoning as the Necron apologists then the only conclusion then would be it's "unknown", and we should make contingency plans just in case there really are chickens in control.

No, you missed the point somewhat. We can't, given the current state of the world prove that there completely absolutely definitely aren't a group of super secret master chickens. But we can assign some sort of probability to the likelihood of that statement being true. Say that it's 0.0000000000000000000001 (really, really unlikely). We get that sort of assessment by looking at what we know about physical science, the likelihood that scientists are lying to us, the coherence of other physical explanations of the universe which don't include master psychic chickens, and so on. What makes a belief in the existence, or probable existence, of master chickens is that you're ignoring all the other evidence to the contrary. Making contingency plans in case there really are chickens in control is irrational to the extent that it ignores the evidence out there. If physical explanations of the universe weren't quite so convincing (say probability of 0.00001 of master chickens), it wouldn't be so irrational to make contingency plans.

This simply doesn't translate to the "Necrons can/can't teleport between tombworlds" case. The problem is assigning the probabilities in the first place. It's somewhere between 0 and 1 not inclusive, and we've got some limited indications. But do we really have enough information to assign a meaningful probability to the event?

Iracundus
03-02-2008, 08:31
But there is indirect evidence that the Necrons might be capable of such feats. They can obviously teleport between world X and their tombworld and/or spaceships. The Necron Codex describes them as masters of the physical universe. And so on. It doesn't amount to definitive proof, of course, but it's still evidence one way or another.

Necrons teleport from orbit to planet surfaces, but so does the Imperium and they certainly don't have intersystem teleportation. Necrons can recall back to their tomb of origin but as explained already in WD, that is because the tomb of origin is constantly attempting to recall anyway. That is entirely different from supposing an entire tomb of Necrons can suddenly go to another tomb in another star system, particularly at sudden short notice of the original tomb's destruction. That's apples and oranges.

Necrons are masters of physical sciences but that doesn't mean their abilities are unlimited. Their ships while fast aren't capable of flashing across the galaxy in a microsecond and their tombs still partially succumbed to simple ravages of time with their often dilapadated or crumbling structures.

This IS a question of beyond reasonable doubt rather than simple balance of probabilities as this is a fictional universe with fictional technologies. Having teleportation technology in some form isn't definitive because numerous races in 40K have that as well while definitely lacking the supposed abilities being ascribed to the Necrons. That is why in the absence of strong positive proof, which is still lacking, the default verdict is "innocent" or "they don't have it."

DantesInferno
03-02-2008, 08:46
Necrons teleport from orbit to planet surfaces, but so does the Imperium and they certainly don't have intersystem teleportation. Necrons can recall back to their tomb of origin but as explained already in WD, that is because the tomb of origin is constantly attempting to recall anyway. That is entirely different from supposing an entire tomb of Necrons can suddenly go to another tomb in another star system, particularly at sudden short notice of the original tomb's destruction. That's apples and oranges.

Necrons are masters of physical sciences but that doesn't mean their abilities are unlimited. Their ships while fast aren't capable of flashing across the galaxy in a microsecond and their tombs still partially succumbed to simple ravages of time with their often dilapadated or crumbling structures.

There are valid points here. Do they mean that it's impossible that the Necrons can teleport between tombworlds? No. They're just arguments for assigning a low probability to the Necron's ability to teleport between tombworlds.

At which point we've reached where we should have been all along, arguing over what the evidence says rather than what the burden of proof should be. At which point I'll let azimaith and Sekhmet fly the Necron flag if they so desire.


This IS a question of beyond reasonable doubt rather than simple balance of probabilities as this is a fictional universe with fictional technologies. Having teleportation technology in some form isn't definitive because numerous races in 40K have that as well while definitely lacking the supposed abilities being ascribed to the Necrons. That is why in the absence of strong positive proof, which is still lacking, the default verdict is "innocent" or "they don't have it."

Why? Why should we demand "beyond reasonable doubt" before we discuss a background theory? What's wrong with just saying "We don't know for sure, but this is a reasonable theory"? We're not depriving people of their liberty or subjecting them to criminal sanction, we're just having an interesting debate about what could be possible in a fictional universe.

Take the popular view that the Eldar Gods were ascended Old Ones. We obviously don't have enough to say for certain one way or another, but it certainly doesn't invalidate all the interesting speculation on the issue.

In any case, I think I've played too much of a part in derailing this thread, so I think I'll bow out until the topic gets back on track. Enjoy.

Iracundus
03-02-2008, 08:56
There are valid points here. Do they mean that it's impossible that the Necrons can teleport between tombworlds? No. They're just arguments for assigning a low probability to the Necron's ability to teleport between tombworlds.

At which point we've reached where we should have been all along, arguing over what the evidence says rather than what the burden of proof should be. At which point I'll let azimaith and Sekhmet fly the Necron flag if they so desire.

That was what my original point was, in that there isn't conclusive evidence saying the Necrons have this ability and therefore the "innocent til guilty" principle is what should be applied.


Take the popular view that the Eldar Gods were ascended Old Ones. We obviously don't have enough to say for certain one way or another, but it certainly doesn't invalidate all the interesting speculation on the issue.

We have evidence in the Necron Codex saying that degenerate Old Ones are Slann and so we know the species and current state of what remains of their race. We know also however that the Eldar gods were warp entities and that Khaine in particular was the last remnant and core of the Eldar psyche that absolutely refused to be joined with Slaanesh, and so was shattered instead (see Eldar Codex). The manifestation of Khaine against the Nightbringer as described in the Eldar myths can be explained as simply a very powerful Avatar, a greater fragment or even majority fragment of the warp entity Khaine. Would an Eldar be able to tell between what is a very powerful Avatar and all of Khaine? Given the mythological voice of the tale? I find it doubtful. The Eldar may have believed it was Khaine in his entirety but that need not be the case. There isn't any need to invoke new classes of entities, or new events such as this "ascenscion".

Lord Damocles
03-02-2008, 12:10
Although this is rather off-topic, this thread seems to have lost it's way long ago, so here goes.

We have evidence in the Necron Codex saying that degenerate Old Ones are Slann and so we know the species and current state of what remains of their race.

The passage in Codex:Necrons doesn't mention the Slann at all.

Although their civilistaion is no more, it is possible that some degenerate decendants of theirs still live on backwater worlds.
Codex: Necrons, pg. 61

However, Xenology (cue moaning about Tau with feet:rolleyes:) makes it quite clear (at least as clear as anything in 40K fluff) that the Eldar gods ARE the Old Ones. See the Exodit Eldar tablet and bit about the Hrud god Qah.

Iracundus
03-02-2008, 12:44
Although this is rather off-topic, this thread seems to have lost it's way long ago, so here goes.


The passage in Codex:Necrons doesn't mention the Slann at all.

Codex: Necrons, pg. 61

However, Xenology (cue moaning about Tau with feet:rolleyes:) makes it quite clear (at least as clear as anything in 40K fluff) that the Eldar gods ARE the Old Ones. See the Exodit Eldar tablet and bit about the Hrud god Qah.

The passage in the Necron Codex says to use a WHFB Lizardman army to represent degenerate Old Ones. The only model in such an army anywhere close to matching the description of Old Ones as being psychic masters is the Slann.

Xenology is an in-character source and hence is suspect, particularly given the mental instability and seeming scientific incompetence of the character in question, whereas the statement from the Necron Codex is from an omniscient 3rd person narrator.


No, you missed the point somewhat. We can't, given the current state of the world prove that there completely absolutely definitely aren't a group of super secret master chickens. But we can assign some sort of probability to the likelihood of that statement being true. Say that it's 0.0000000000000000000001 (really, really unlikely). We get that sort of assessment by looking at what we know about physical science, the likelihood that scientists are lying to us, the coherence of other physical explanations of the universe which don't include master psychic chickens, and so on. What makes a belief in the existence, or probable existence, of master chickens is that you're ignoring all the other evidence to the contrary. Making contingency plans in case there really are chickens in control is irrational to the extent that it ignores the evidence out there. If physical explanations of the universe weren't quite so convincing (say probability of 0.00001 of master chickens), it wouldn't be so irrational to make contingency plans.

You're getting too caught up in the particular details of that scenario. It need not be chickens. One could claim some human group (pick a company or government) is secretly masterminding everything in human society. The principle is the same. In the absence of definitive proof, one doesn't go around living one's life on the possibility there's a global conspiracy controlling everything.

Kiro
03-02-2008, 14:03
It would be interesting to note when the Orks became the belligerent savages they are today; after all, the Old Ones created a multitude of races to fight as an allied coalition against the C'Tan, and although the Eldar are notoriously fickle, I'd imagine their alliance with the Orks to be more close-knit than their modern, self-serving 'alliances'.
That is, until we're given some sort of date on this matter, it could be safe to say the Orks and Eldar got on honkey-dorey until relatively recently. Relative being a...well, relative word!

Ekranoplan
03-02-2008, 20:04
The galaxy consists of >400 billion stars. Even if only 0.5% of these worlds can support orky life, thats 2 billion potential ork worlds (orks probably got a few hundred million all about). No race has the numbers nor the organization to sweep systematically across the galaxy. Not to mention the fact it would take millions of years. Tyranids are certainly up to the task, but once theyve made their jaunt across the galaxy enough time will have passed for worlds to recover, or even new worlds to develop a nice climate.

Necrons dont even need to be on a planet that can support life. A tomb world could just be some asteroid in the void between systems. There is just too much space to cover. It is like trying to a find a few specific grains of sand across the entire Earth.

As previously mentioned, Eldar only had their little corner of the galaxy they cared about. Its all they needed to survive and thrive. A big ork waagghh was just an occasional crisis.

I for one beleive that no matter what happens, there will always be some Orks, Humans, Tyranids, Chaos Cultists, and Necrons running around. There are plenty of human worlds undiscovered by the Imperium, and plenty of Ork empires battling amoungst each other in wilderness space, unknown and unobserved by humans, chaos, and tyranids.