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angels of awesome
03-02-2008, 11:21
at the club i go to there is a space wolf player that says his army is theamed/fluffy for a space wolf army. but the thing is he never looses and he wins by alot. how can i tel if he is a power gamer or playing more for fun?

Ward.
03-02-2008, 11:27
Read the space wolf codex/ some books and go from there.

High numbers of victory do not always equal a power gamer though, some people just rock that hard.

Hulkster
03-02-2008, 11:29
well you cant sometimes lol

if his army has a theme, which is really easy to do with SW, and it works well then it can be hard to tell

not all themes will nerf a list

Grimtuff
03-02-2008, 11:33
at the club i go to there is a space wolf player that says his army is theamed/fluffy for a space wolf army. but the thing is he never looses and he wins by alot. how can i tel if he is a power gamer or playing more for fun?

It would help extremley if you told us what was in his list perhaps? :eyebrows:

Maybe he always wins because he's bound so tightly. If he was more LOOSE then he might LOSE more. ;)

Archangel_Ruined
03-02-2008, 11:38
The SW list is old, so quite crooked. You can make a fluffy themed list and still trounce most armies. It's the same thing with the dark eldar witch cult armies, very fluffy and pure filth in game terms. The older lists lend themselves to abuse, but often within the backstory.

Freak Ona Leash
03-02-2008, 11:44
Well, Space Wolves are the hardest chapter around. Like seriously. Kick ass and take names all over the place. The Space Wolves are so hard, they spit in the Inquisition's face and actually get a laugh on about it. Hardcore. In fact, the only people approaching how hard the Space Wolves are is the Iron Snakes, and that is only because they are the 300 Spartans in space.

So no, he is not power-gaming, he is playing according to the background. Some may complain due to tha fact that the Space Wolf background IS power-gaming, but that is besides the point. ;)

Grimtuff
03-02-2008, 11:47
The SW list is old, so quite crooked. You can make a fluffy themed list and still trounce most armies. It's the same thing with the dark eldar witch cult armies, very fluffy and pure filth in game terms. The older lists lend themselves to abuse, but often within the backstory.

How so?

SW are a list that is somewhat underpowered compared to the the more recent SM codexes. Grey Hunters are overpointed, Blood Claw jump pack troops next to useless, Wolf Lords are overcosted compared to their SM counterparts.....

Generally, the SW "power lists" were the ones that loaded up on Blood Claws and had practically no GH (only the minimum 6 required by the list). This is not a fluffy/themed list as a Great Company predominantly consists of Grey Hunters.

As for Wych Cults. I've played one myself, they either destroy the enemy completely or get destroyed themselves, there is no middle groud with them.

javgoro
03-02-2008, 13:26
To answer the OP... To me, a fluffy space wolf army is one with lots of basic troops (specially grey hunters), and at least one Venerable Dreadnaught (they´re the staple of SW´s ;) ). Usually, I lean towards the use of a wolf lord to lead the army, when it comes to fluff, specially if the army is over 2000 points (less than that, and I can see other options). Finally, a few tanks or bikes sprinkled in for support usually work well from a fluff point of view, but they´re not a need.

As for the SW´s over/underpoweredness... I´ve heard opinions of all kinds. A friend of mine, who is very much a tourney player (he wins about 75% of all the local 40K tourneys and 90% of the fantasy tourneys) thinks they´re the best marine army out there, simply because of the high number of powerfists/power weapons they can include, and because of their special rules. In other cases, I´ve seen many people thinking (me included) that they´re a bit overpriced, and that the HQ options should be brought in line with the other marine armies, but it´s definitely a working army. (Now, if they gave blood claws WS4 for the new codex, I´ll be a happy man :evilgrin: )

victorpofa
03-02-2008, 14:14
I see fluffy Wolves as consisting of their Wolf Lord or Wolf Guard Battle Leader, a Wolf Priest, maybe a Wolf Guard Bodyguard for the commander, at least as many Grey Hunters as Blood Claws all led by Wolf Guard, a squad of scouts to hit from the rear of the enemy, Some old timers with heavy weapons, and tanks to taste. I don't tend to use Long Fangs myself, but I have 2 squads painted up for when I want to :evilgrin:

I would also add lots of howling jump pack assault troops if they were not obscenely expensive points wise in the current codex. :cries:

LoneSniperSG
03-02-2008, 17:40
How so?

SW are a list that is somewhat underpowered compared to the the more recent SM codexes. Grey Hunters are overpointed, Blood Claw jump pack troops next to useless, Wolf Lords are overcosted compared to their SM counterparts.....

Generally, the SW "power lists" were the ones that loaded up on Blood Claws and had practically no GH (only the minimum 6 required by the list). This is not a fluffy/themed list as a Great Company predominantly consists of Grey Hunters.

As for Wych Cults. I've played one myself, they either destroy the enemy completely or get destroyed themselves, there is no middle groud with them.

I'm not certain I believe that we are "underpowered" as you say. I say we're at the correct level of power. Grey hunters are not overpointed for their value in battle, jump packs are, in most cases, useless, but shine on their own in the right circumstances. Wolf lords are expensive, I grant you, but they're powerhouses of hell in combat.

Wolves "power lists" likely do rely mostly on BC's, bikes and Dreadnoughts, as ours are over the top with the fact that we can get two Ven Dreads on a technicality.

imperial_scholar
03-02-2008, 18:53
LoneSniper Quoted me lol!
A SW 'fluff' army would probably only have 1 squad of scouts
1 squad of long fangs... 2 if the 2nd is under 5
They would have more (total) grey hunters over blood claws
They might have 1 Predator Annihilator as they SW's are credited for the revelation that they could smack 2 lascannons on the turret.

They'd probably not use Rhinos as most of the books/stories I read is they don't usually drive into battle.


Edit:
AND NO JUMP PACKS!

Gen.Steiner
03-02-2008, 19:00
Well, I went for this:



Leiknir Bloody-Axe’s Great Company, the ‘White Wolves’:

HQ1:
Wolf Lord:
Leiknir Bloody-Axe with: Runic armour, plasma pistol, frost axe, runic charm; wolf tooth necklace.

HQ2:
Rune Priest:
Rodmar the Wise with: Rune staff, runic axe; chooser of the slain.

HQ3:
Wolf Priest:
Waltheof the Strong with: Bolt pistol, power axe, Iron Wolf amulet, fang of Morkai; healing potions and balms.

HQ4:
Venerable Dreadnought:
Vandrad the Merciless with: Assault cannon, DCCW and storm bolter, smoke launchers; extra amour.

Elites 1:
Leiknir’s Hearthguard:
Einar, Wolf Guard with: Terminator armour, Great Company standard, storm bolter; power fist.
Four Wolf Guard with: Terminator armour, storm bolters, assault cannon, cyclone MLRS; power fists.

Elites 2:
Wolf Scouts:
Six Wolf Scouts with: Plasma pistol, power weapon, melta, bolt pistols and close combat weapons; frag grenades.

Elites 3:
Iron Priest:
Iorund Moon-Wolf with: Bolter, thunder hammer, artificier armour; servo-arm.

Troops 1:
Rodmar’s Pack:
Nine Grey Hunters (153) with: Bolters and close combat weapons, power fist, power weapon, plasma gun; wolf totem.

Troops 2:
Hjorvarth’s Pack:
10 Grey Hunters with: Bolters and close combat weapons, power fist, power weapon; plasma gun.

Troops 3:
Waltheof’s Pups:
14 Blood Claws with: Bolt pistols and close combat weapons, flamer, power fist; power weapon.

Troops 4:
Yngvar’s Pack:
10 Blood Claws with: Bolt pistols and close combat weapons, flamer, power fist; power weapon.
Transport:
Rhino with: Storm bolter, extra armour; smoke launchers.

Fast Attack 1:
Landspeeder Squadron:
Two Landspeeders with: Multi-meltas.

Fast Attack 2:
Landspeeder Squadron:
Two Landspeeders with: Multi-meltas.

Heavy Support 1:
Ulfrik’s Pack:
Five Long Fangs with: Bolter and close combat weapon, two lascannons; two rocket launchers.

Heavy Support 2:
Land Raider Crusader:
Hrossketil with: Twin-linked assault cannon, pintle-mount multi-melta, sponson hurricane bolters, frag launchers, extra armour; searchlight.

Heavy Support 3:
Leman Russ Exterminator:
Kollsvein with: Twin-linked autocannon, hull heavy bolter, sponson heavy bolters, pintle-mounted storm bolter, extra armour; smoke launchers.


Grand Total Points Value of the White Wolves:
3,000

Points Breakdown:
HQ1: 150
HQ2: 155
HQ3: 125
HQ4: 163
E1: 347
E2: 120
E3: 110
T1: 219
T2: 217
T3: 222
T4: (S: 166; T: 58) 224
FA1: 130
FA2: 130
HS1: 219
HS2: 256
HS3: 213
Total: 3,000

I think that's pretty close to the background. :)

dr.oetk3r
03-02-2008, 19:08
Edit:
AND NO JUMP PACKS!

Why? There's fluff where Space Wolves use jump packs.

trigger
03-02-2008, 19:43
I play space wolves and i am intrsested to hear why its beardy/cheese to have more blood claws than grey hunters in your army?????
In my mec company i have 2 x 10 Grey hunters in rhino's and 3 x 10 blood claws and 1 x 15 iBC in a crussader.
Each BC unit has a power weapon or a power fist and my grey hunters have a special weapon each (1 squad has 2 plasma pistols in it to)
Every one from wolf guard up has a woolf tooth neclace (i see this as beeing fluffy they are the chapters best and this to me shows it)

The wolf army is not as easy to use as people think , if you don't spend time on your list you are stuffed (this used to happen alot) so i studied the codex and i only have to make minimal referance to the codex wrighting my list and useing the army.

On a side note i don't see it beeing fluff based to use Venerable dreads all the time.
They are the chapters greatest hero's who sleep for cenuries at a time only to be awoken at times of need as the loss of one would be great.
So why would they be at every 1500-2000pt game i also have the same view on special charicters , yes Ragnar is a close combat deamon BUT there is only one of him.

My 2 penny's worth.

P.S. To the original poster.......Could you please give us some examples of your opponants list.

Grimtuff
03-02-2008, 20:32
Why? There's fluff where Space Wolves use jump packs.

Yup, in the 3rd edition book. SW believe that a warrior should fight with both feet on the ground, the way "Russ Intended". They let the Blood Claws use them as they don't know any better (yet). This still does not explain Land Speeders though.... :eyebrows:

Gen.Steiner
03-02-2008, 20:53
I thought Land Speeders were flown by Blood Claws, in the same way that Blood Claws drive the bikes?

Lionsbane
03-02-2008, 20:58
one line in a side bar..... not even in a real chunk of fluff. That contradicts much previous fluff. All so some developer could be lazy and not have to have bikers and jumpers seperated in the codex. I call it filthy rumors spread by the inquisition.

Gen.Steiner
03-02-2008, 21:11
It's still canon. And at any rate, they use Landspeeders and bikes and tanks and T-hawks... (and interstellar battleships!) so why not jump packs? It's just like a very big, well, jump. ;)

javgoro
04-02-2008, 00:43
I thought Land Speeders were flown by Blood Claws, in the same way that Blood Claws drive the bikes?

Doesn´t seem plausible, otherwise SW Land Speeders would have BS 3.

LoneSniperSG
04-02-2008, 01:10
Why? There's fluff where Space Wolves use jump packs.

Yes, but Wolves only get up to 5 marines with jump packs. They are not good for just throwing out, you need to take them for a reason and only use them for that reason. That is typically why jump packs are not taken in a Wolves army.

Wolf Scouts are always a useful choice as well. Our scouts are one of the best scout units from any Space Marine army, since one scout pack can take their gear as listed in the SM codex, and the rest has to come from the SW options allowed.


I should also mention you need to keep in mind that for every 750 points, you -need- an HQ unit.

carlisimo
04-02-2008, 03:15
A fluffy army is more about your attitude as you play than what the list looks like. You can explain away pretty much any selection.

Michael M.
04-02-2008, 05:11
I thought Land Speeders were flown by Blood Claws, in the same way that Blood Claws drive the bikes?
No, Land Speeders and Attack Bikes are manned by GH. Or would you give an expensive and hard to build LS into the hands of a noob?


Yup, in the 3rd edition book. SW believe that a warrior should fight with both feet on the ground, the way "Russ Intended". They let the Blood Claws use them as they don't know any better (yet). This still does not explain Land Speeders though.... :eyebrows:
The old problem with GW. They change the background with every edition. In 2nd Ed. noone played BCs without jumppacks but with the 3rd we don´t like them anymore.


Yes, but Wolves only get up to 5 marines with jump packs. They are not good for just throwing out, you need to take them for a reason and only use them for that reason. That is typically why jump packs are not taken in a Wolves army.

Wolf Scouts are always a useful choice as well. Our scouts are one of the best scout units from any Space Marine army, since one scout pack can take their gear as listed in the SM codex, and the rest has to come from the SW options allowed.


I should also mention you need to keep in mind that for every 750 points, you -need- an HQ unit.

Hi LoneSniperSG, it´s me, Dark Bjoern. We can have up to eight Jumppackers.

LoneSniperSG
04-02-2008, 06:32
No, Land Speeders and Attack Bikes are manned by GH. Or would you give an expensive and hard to build LS into the hands of a noob?


The old problem with GW. They change the background with every edition. In 2nd Ed. noone played BCs without jumppacks but with the 3rd we don´t like them anymore.



Hi LoneSniperSG, it´s me, Dark Bjoern. We can have up to eight Jumppackers.

.. Eight? We get eight? I thought it said five in the 'dex.. the same number as bikes..

Ack. I see.. But I've never seen anyone with eight bikes either..

Thylacine
04-02-2008, 06:40
at the club i go to there is a space wolf player that says his army is theamed/fluffy for a space wolf army. but the thing is he never looses and he wins by alot. how can i tel if he is a power gamer or playing more for fun?

Post a copy of his list, so that we can see it. Remember 'Fluff does not make for a playable list.' if the list is codex legal he should be ok, but this depends on where you are. In OZ some players seem to think that SW's are an over the top army and GH's should be armed with nothing more than sling-shots and pointy sticks. I know one player who always complains that SW's have to many power weapons, power fists, too much plasma and the 'Behind Enemy Lines' rule it way over the top.

In reality, plasma is a double edged thing, the basic troops cost too much compared to what they do and chew up your points and the scouts come in a pack of 4-6 not what I would call excessive. True Grit is not that good and a some of our wargear sounds good but is overpriced and next to useless in a game. Example; Chooser of the Slain, this sounds good but it can only be used at the start of a game, on the roll of a 4+ and costs 10 points. Another good one. Iron Priest costs 80 points base and you have to buy him a servo arm for 30 points and then he can't have shooty Thralls!

A good thing in the list is, the Leman Russ Exterminator, put it on the table and watch your opponent scratch his head. However it does not come with a hull mounted heavy bolter (kit has las cannon) and you have to buy a turret or twin linked Auto-cannon barrels separately.

"the thing is he never looses and he wins by alot" True? Are these friendly club games or tournaments and what experience and lists do his opponents take? Space Wolves have never been a top army, I don't care who says they are you only have to look at the tournament results to see that.

:chrome:Thylacine:chrome:

WLBjork
04-02-2008, 07:13
I play space wolves and i am intrsested to hear why its beardy/cheese to have more blood claws than grey hunters in your army?????
In my mec company i have 2 x 10 Grey hunters in rhino's and 3 x 10 blood claws and 1 x 15 iBC in a crussader.
Each BC unit has a power weapon or a power fist and my grey hunters have a special weapon each (1 squad has 2 plasma pistols in it to)
Every one from wolf guard up has a woolf tooth neclace (i see this as beeing fluffy they are the chapters best and this to me shows it)

I can't remember anyone saying it's cheese.

What they said is that it is not fluffy.

Grey Hunters, as the tactical squad equivalent, are the most numerous troops in any Great Company.

Blood Claws, as the recruits/assault squad equivalent are probably the second most numerous.

Long Fangs, as the veterans/devastator squad equivalent are a little harder to quantify, but I'd expect them to be either joint second or third.

Finally, the Wolf Guard and Scouts are specialists, which I'd consider to be roughly equal in number and thus least numerous.

Wyatt
04-02-2008, 07:29
I don't understand where people get the "SW don't use jump packs" or "SW don't use land speeders" from. Sure it might be from the books, but it's certainly nowhere in the codex. The SW codex is unique to that army, not like the generic SM codex: if SW weren't intended to be able to use land speeders and jump packs, they would have been left out of the codex.

I used to collect SW (now I'm all Guard), but my army had... 6 troops (half GH, half BC), Rhino and Bike Squad (battleforce), land speeder, land speeder typhoon, iron priest, wolf priest (Ulrik the slayer, but proxied as a wolf priest since... where the hell sells wolf priests anymore), wolf lord (on bike), wolf lord (off bike) with wolf guard bodyguard.

Glabro
04-02-2008, 08:16
I play space wolves and i am intrsested to hear why its beardy/cheese to have more blood claws than grey hunters in your army?????
In my mec company i have 2 x 10 Grey hunters in rhino's and 3 x 10 blood claws and 1 x 15 iBC in a crussader.
Each BC unit has a power weapon or a power fist and my grey hunters have a special weapon each (1 squad has 2 plasma pistols in it to)
Every one from wolf guard up has a woolf tooth neclace (i see this as beeing fluffy they are the chapters best and this to me shows it)

The wolf army is not as easy to use as people think , if you don't spend time on your list you are stuffed (this used to happen alot) so i studied the codex and i only have to make minimal referance to the codex wrighting my list and useing the army.

On a side note i don't see it beeing fluff based to use Venerable dreads all the time.
They are the chapters greatest hero's who sleep for cenuries at a time only to be awoken at times of need as the loss of one would be great.
So why would they be at every 1500-2000pt game i also have the same view on special charicters , yes Ragnar is a close combat deamon BUT there is only one of him.

My 2 penny's worth.

P.S. To the original poster.......Could you please give us some examples of your opponants list.

Twice the number of Blood Claws compared to Grey Hunters is fine for a Blood Claw-themed SW force (which is very justifiable). It'd represent a Wolf force fresh out from Fenris with new recruits into the Clan roster. Thing is, attrition among Blood Claws is astronomical compared to veteran warriors like Grey Hunters, which means that eventually, as the best surviving warriors mature into Grey Hunters and attrition eats away at the Claws, the Grey Hunters will eventually establish a similar majority (2:1 or something). At some point the Clan will be able to restock with fresh new warriors from Fenris and the cycle begins anew.

Now, your list is stretching this guideline a bit, but I'd have no problem with it : you field two full squads of Grey Hunters anyway which is definitely miles better than the requisite one (usually at the minimum size).

imperial_scholar
04-02-2008, 16:31
I don't understand where people get the "SW don't use jump packs" or "SW don't use land speeders" from. Sure it might be from the books, but it's certainly nowhere in the codex. The SW codex is unique to that army, not like the generic SM codex: if SW weren't intended to be able to use land speeders and jump packs, they would have been left out of the codex.

We're talking about 'Fluff' armies. This is just the background of the SW's. They rather fight on their feet. I don't agree with it as in 2nd edition I had some 20 blood claws with jump packs. I still have some jump packs I haven't used.

It's they'll use Jump Packs.. but its not encouraged. So imagine those jump packing blood claws will be made fun of well into elder years. So you think those jump packing blood claws keep them very long???

I use them! I say its fluffy cause they get made fun of. However it doesn't excuse the wolf guard squad leader from joining them ;)... but the story is he does it after losing a bet :D.

JackBurton01
04-02-2008, 16:45
My landspeeders are remote controlled.