PDA

View Full Version : Just makes you shake your head about GW



Vic
03-02-2008, 14:00
GW now has bitz packs. Very narrow range of bitz too. Here in the US, we have the Bitzwagon, from The Warstore (online dicounter) which allows us a hefty selection from which to make conversions. He has an online shopping cart to make your purchase easier. GW has now given him 90 days to remove the shopping cart option from his website. What the hell purpose does that serve?!? He's bought the product from GW. He's offering a service GW no longer does. What purpose does this serve other than to make yet another impediment on the customer to buy GW product??

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-02-2008, 14:03
The Bitzpack range is meant to be expanding over time.

As to this one, well, thats up to them I guess. Does this mean they are going to try to shut down Bitz websites?

Vic
03-02-2008, 14:10
I dont even think thats the purpose. I cant think of any reason other than spite. This only effects US sites if Im not mistaken....

WargamesEmpire
03-02-2008, 14:18
Games Workshop have for a long time said as part of their trade agreement that "Our goods must be made available in their original form (ie. Not broken down for components, resold as painted miniatures, etc.)"

So to be fair, any indie that IS selling "bitz" is breaking the terms of their GW trade agreement.

Shadowheart
03-02-2008, 14:19
The Bitzpack range is meant to be expanding over time.

Yeah, like Dark Heresy.

Gaebriel
03-02-2008, 14:27
The Bitzpack range is meant to be expanding over time.
...
Yeah, I can already see unlimited possibilities coming back again...

Seriously, what's wrong with GW? No one is going to shell out €30 for a box to get a single bit. It's not like anyone not buying from a bits store is going to spend that money on GW.

ankara halla
03-02-2008, 14:31
Games Workshop have for a long time said as part of their trade agreement that "Our goods must be made available in their original form (ie. Not broken down for components, resold as painted miniatures, etc.)"

So to be fair, any indie that IS selling "bitz" is breaking the terms of their GW trade agreement.

Uh... the goods *are* available in their original form.

That the goods are also available in other forms shouldn't be an issue. In the EU anyway, it would even be illegal for GW to try and dictate (this includes shady stuff like consistently messing up/not accepting orders etc...) the terms of sale (prices, bitz, etc...) for resellers.

Now I don't know if this is the same in the States, but I'd imagine there are laws to govern fair trade in this regard.

Templar Ben
03-02-2008, 15:41
Uh... the goods *are* available in their original form.

That the goods are also available in other forms shouldn't be an issue. In the EU anyway, it would even be illegal for GW to try and dictate (this includes shady stuff like consistently messing up/not accepting orders etc...) the terms of sale (prices, bitz, etc...) for resellers.

Now I don't know if this is the same in the States, but I'd imagine there are laws to govern fair trade in this regard.

Actually in the US there are laws protecting manufacturers. They can set a minimum price that cannot but reduced (this is an issue with high end accessories such as handbags) and they can set rules around what may be sold over the internet (which is what GW is doing here).

ankara halla
03-02-2008, 15:47
Well, it just goes to show you learn something new everyday :)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-02-2008, 15:50
And under British Law, you always have the right to refuse service, without having to give a reason.

Templar Ben
03-02-2008, 15:59
I am surprised about BWBits though. A smart thing would be for him to spin it off into a different company and he can supply said company and continue. Since that company would not have a trade account it would be insulated. Then again, as a general rule people that seek to build legal networks to maximize profit go into offshore banking and international taxation and not selling little army men.

ankara halla
03-02-2008, 16:08
And under British Law, you always have the right to refuse service, without having to give a reason.

All the same, UK and thus Britain, still falls under EU jurisdiction which means a company can't just cook up any kinds of deals it can come up with. Of course, if two parties can't reach an agreement then there is no law forcing them to do business with each other, but even so there are regualtions regarding the retail industry.

In the EU, If you want to sell your goods to retailers you have to accept certain conditions, terms of sale are among the things you cannot dictate.

Then again, GW can allways stop supporting indie stores. Afterall, it has worked so well for them in the past... .. .

Gazak Blacktoof
03-02-2008, 16:09
If you don't have a trade account they can't stop you selling bitz though. I know that's not the point but even so it might be worth converting over to this sort of trade- I'd imagine you could still make a profit.

In general though this bullying of independant stroes isn't going to win GW any fans and certainly hasn't in the past.

jb85
03-02-2008, 16:21
Uh... the goods *are* available in their original form.

That the goods are also available in other forms shouldn't be an issue. In the EU anyway, it would even be illegal for GW to try and dictate (this includes shady stuff like consistently messing up/not accepting orders etc...) the terms of sale (prices, bitz, etc...) for resellers.

Now I don't know if this is the same in the States, but I'd imagine there are laws to govern fair trade in this regard.

Well take Coca Cola as a simple everyday example. If a retailer is given 6 cans of coke in a plastic packet, they are not allowed to remove the packaging and sell the six cans separately.

Bregalad
03-02-2008, 16:31
Then again, GW can allways stop supporting indie stores.
I am not so sure if GW supports indie stores right now ;)
Their massive campaign for "mail order only" products and the rebuild of the online store (to handle larger customer numbers) are clearly meant to get rid of those damned indies. Indies in Germany only get 3 price hikes and decreasing profit marges every year.

superknijn
03-02-2008, 16:39
Well, the whole eurozone got a damn price hike last year. Luckily, my local store has a €5 1-year 10%-off card, to compensate it.

Just give it some time. And Shadowheart, that Dark Heresy comment is my favourite one this year.

The_Patriot
03-02-2008, 16:40
Well take Coca Cola as a simple everyday example. If a retailer is given 6 cans of coke in a plastic packet, they are not allowed to remove the packaging and sell the six cans separately.

Not correct in the slightest. A retailer can sell the cans individually provided they are used in a vending machine.

ankara halla
03-02-2008, 17:18
Well take Coca Cola as a simple everyday example. If a retailer is given 6 cans of coke in a plastic packet, they are not allowed to remove the packaging and sell the six cans separately.

Says who? Coca Cola (or the company selling Coke under the license)?
The reseller in under no legal obligation to sell the stuff in sixpacks.

But I'm betting you are talking about the case where a store can't sell you single can when all they have is a sixpack, right? If so that's not becouse Coca Cola said you can't buy a single can, it's becouse the store/shop/kiosk/whatever bought it from a wholesale firm in the unit of a sixpack and it's company policy (not Coca Cola policy) to only sell whole units and not part of units. This, among numerous other things, helps them keep stock of the inventory and this is why the retailer has such policy and why you can't buy a single can from a sixpack.

To take a GW related example, it's the policy of many independant gaming stores to sell you miniatures in whole units (like a box of marines), just like they bought them from GW. Under EU law they don't have to do it, but it suits them (less hassle, less staff time spent on clipping induvidual parts, less profits per bought units becouse of it etc. etc...) to do so so that's that.

If a reseller wants to go thru the trouble of clipping off induvidual parts and then selling them for high profit (or ripping up sixpacks of Coke, inventorying the induvidual bottles/cans, keeping track of the inventory, now six time bigger and a whole lot more expensive becouse of the manhours used), then that's their right.

yabbadabba
03-02-2008, 18:55
As I have a copy of the UK(European) trade agreement I thought I would quote the relevant part:

"3.3 Buyer will not alter divide or break down the Products into their component parts. For the avoidance of doubt the Buyer will sell the Product to third parties only as provided by GW to Buyer for that purpose"

Now whether you agree with this, or whether you think it is legal is a moot point. You sign this agreement you agree to the terms. This is the new "European" agreement too. If you disagree, you would need to take GW to court to settle the matter.

If the US has something similar then they might be in a position to insist on BWBits closing down their bits service. From this p.o.v. GW is protecting and enforcing their legal rights and contractual agreements. Morality aside, who's the bad guy now?

Templar Ben
03-02-2008, 18:57
Well there are times when a package cannot be split. Those cases in the US are spelled out because the individual package will say "Not for individual resale". That is normally due to labelling and for no other reason.

I think the bits retailer would be better. I could see that also being used to sell boxed sets with an online store since you won't have a trade account then either.

Darkson
03-02-2008, 19:02
Says who? Coca Cola (or the company selling Coke under the license)?
The reseller in under no legal obligation to sell the stuff in sixpacks.

But I'm betting you are talking about the case where a store can't sell you single can when all they have is a sixpack, right? If so that's not becouse Coca Cola said you can't buy a single can, it's becouse the store/shop/kiosk/whatever bought it from a wholesale firm in the unit of a sixpack and it's company policy (not Coca Cola policy) to only sell whole units and not part of units. This, among numerous other things, helps them keep stock of the inventory and this is why the retailer has such policy and why you can't buy a single can from a sixpack.

Actually, when I worked for a major (THE major) UK food retailer a few years back, there was a company email stating we MUSTN'T do exactly what you said above, because one of our stores had been hit by a fine from Trading Standards for splitting multipacks to sell singularly.

ankara halla
03-02-2008, 19:03
As I have a copy of the UK(European) trade agreement I thought I would quote the relevant part:

"3.3 Buyer will not alter divide or break down the Products into their component parts. For the avoidance of doubt the Buyer will sell the Product to third parties only as provided by GW to Buyer for that purpose"

Now whether you agree with this, or whether you think it is legal is a moot point. You sign this agreement you agree to the terms. This is the new "European" agreement too. If you disagree, you would need to take GW to court to settle the matter.

If the US has something similar then they might be in a position to insist on BWBits closing down their bits service. From this p.o.v. GW is protecting and enforcing their legal rights and contractual agreements. Morality aside, who's the bad guy now?

That really wouldn't hold up in court thought. It's not unusual for any company to draw up terms that they come up with.

Take "quick loans" as an example (I dunno the correct English term, the loans you can get on your cell phone with an SMS that have ridicilous interest rates). They've been up and about for a number of years now. Only now have authorities started to investigate them, and even that's becouse of so many people losing their credit... if that hadn't happened then I suspect the authorities wouldn't have done squat about it. The intrest are straight from hell, and an SMS is not a binding conrtact by any interpitation of the law. Even so there are numberless companies offering such loans, until they are told not to.

The point being that GW can print anything they want on their trade agreement, it still doesn't make it legal.

Bloodknight
03-02-2008, 19:08
Now whether you agree with this, or whether you think it is legal is a moot point. You sign this agreement you agree to the terms. This is the new "European" agreement too. If you disagree, you would need to take GW to court to settle the matter.

You'd have to check if that clause is legal under EU law. I am not firm in EU law, but in Germany you can sign an agreement and ignore illegal clauses wihout voiding the agreement.

An example: you rent a flat - you can sign the agreement, although there is for example a clause in it that says you have to pay the electricity for the whole house, not only your flat - since that clause is illegal you just have to pay your rent and be happy (bad example, but you get the gist).


The thing GW says could be a void clause, but they might try it anyway because most people believe they are bound to everything in an agreement they signed, although they are not in reality.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-02-2008, 19:09
No, but it does make it a legally binding contract.

So, it may not change the law per se, but you can sign a contract waiving certain rights. Like I did years ago in my first job, and regretted it ever since!

Gaebriel
03-02-2008, 19:12
While we're throwing cans of Coke at bad guys...

At least retailers wanting to sell single cans of Coke can buy palettes of single cans of Coke from Coca Cola, while GW doesn't offer single bits anymore.

So by shutting off one of the possibilities to get single bits, GW is trying to force it's no-single-bits-policy down the customers throats, and while they're entitled to do what they want with their product, it makes one wonder why?

ankara halla
03-02-2008, 19:15
Actually, when I worked for a major (THE major) UK food retailer a few years back, there was a company email stating we MUSTN'T do exactly what you said above, because one of our stores had been hit by a fine from Trading Standards for splitting multipacks to sell singularly.

That seems odd... the first thing that comes to my mind is some kind of price gauging, but not being that familiar with UK laws I can't say for sure.

Trading Standards being a third party I find it odd they'd get involved with such a thing in the first place, but this is all based on my very limited knowledge of the function of Trading Standards and of the UK laws in general.

Damien 1427
03-02-2008, 19:16
The Bitzpack range is meant to be expanding over time.

Yup. As opposed to just having all the kits up in their component form, letting you choose what bits you want. Or what models you want. Apparently, according to the suits, less choice is somehow better for the consumer. :confused:

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-02-2008, 19:17
Well, no other miniature company offers a Bitz service, at least, to my knowledge. Might be wrong like!

And they have information at their disposal we could never know. What if the Bitz Packs are in fact representative of the majority of Bitz sales over the past few years? We don't know one way or the other, but I'm pretty sure GW do.

I reckon there will be a certain amount of moaning, as suddenly all the grand plans for mental conversions cannot be fulfilled, where as previously, they were more filed under 'not likely' to be fulfilled!

Bloodknight
03-02-2008, 19:21
No, but it does make it a legally binding contract.

As I said: that depends on the laws of your country or the EU trading laws. If that clause is void, the contract counts as working, but the illegal clause is ignored in Germany. I guess that should count for the whole EU since most of our own laws seem to be imposed by the EU todays.


as for the bitz service: Privateer Press and the small Ramshacklegames do.

Damien 1427
03-02-2008, 19:23
Well, no other miniature company offers a Bitz service, at least, to my knowledge. Might be wrong like!

Privateer Press. Which seems to expand at a good rate. I don't think they ship outside North America though.

Thing is, no other company could. The fact GW did was one of the few things that truly made them stand head and shoulders above the herd. At least in that respect alone, they were still providing a useful service to modellers.

To anyone who isn't a Beakie player, this really does feel like a slap in the face.

Lars Porsenna
03-02-2008, 20:24
as for the bitz service: Privateer Press and the small Ramshacklegames do.

Add to that Reaper. via their "Boneyard" service on-line. They also sell just about EVERY OOP mini they've made (except for a few early items and license stuff) via the on-line store. Too bad GW doesn't...

Damon.

selfconstrukt
03-02-2008, 21:32
The Bitzpack range is meant to be expanding over time.As to this one, well, thats up to them I guess. Does this mean they are going to try to shut down Bitz websites?

Unfortunately that's exactly what GW are going to do, I've been in a few meetings when the bits range was being discussed and online re-sellers in the words of my former colleagues were "A big problem".

If you cannot get the bits from them anymore, you'll but them from GW. And since GW is packing the bits in blisters now, they will cost you more so GW will make more money.

And GW can do this for the same reasons you cannot get a GW IP tattoo, sell conversions on Ebay, etc.

They made it part of their policies and if you don't abide by GW rules then they won't sell to you.

Either he does what GW asks, or GW won't sell to him.

If you cannot get bits from Warstore, Battlewagon, or whomever then you'll buy them from GW.

Its ion every companies best interests to get people to buy product from them, and not others. Product like box sets they sell to retailers is fine since they already made money. But the items you generally can't get from retailers, GW will be directing you to purchase those directly form GW Direct Sales. This has been one of the plans of Direct Sales since it was made into its own entity a few years ago.

I seem to recall saying GW was going to discontinue the bits range (before they even announced it) and move to pre-packed blisters a while back and none of you believed me.:angel:

Well, Starlight believed me since he did work for GW as well.

Solasun
03-02-2008, 22:15
Privateer Press ship internationally, they have a warehouse in either France or Manchester or something. I had to request a missing part which will have come from their "bitz box" so to speak.

PP have some awesome customer service regarding bitz and online retailing. I only hope that GW's bitz service can begin to reach that level again.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-02-2008, 22:47
Add to that Reaper. via their "Boneyard" service on-line. They also sell just about EVERY OOP mini they've made (except for a few early items and license stuff) via the on-line store. Too bad GW doesn't...

Damon.

GW went through a phase of that too. But I guess it proved too costly for the level of demand.

Not being rude, but GW have a back catalogue far in excess of the other companies, thus, more moulds, which means more storage for the off chance someone really really wants a specific hand from a specific model from 15 years ago for a single conversion, and so on.

Again, without a breakdown of costs being available from GW, I think it's pretty unfair for people to speculate on what does and doesn't cost them money!

Gaebriel
03-02-2008, 22:52
...
Again, without a breakdown of costs being available from GW, I think it's pretty unfair for people to speculate on what does and doesn't cost them money!
What else is speculation than discussion without available facts? Perhaps you are taking things too seriously sometimes ;)

I guess the average gamer will know that not every negative opinion (and not every positive, btw) is to be taken seriously.

Gazak Blacktoof
03-02-2008, 22:53
And GW can do this for the same reasons you cannot get a GW IP tattoo, sell conversions on Ebay, etc.


See I'm still not sure on the legality of this. It always sounds like a load of balls to me, particularly when they encourage conversions, golden daemon etc.

If you set yourself up as a company or you are devaluing their IP I can see that there might be some merit to a case, but conversions etc by fans, even if then sold on privately (that includes e-bay), have zilch to do with GW as a company.

I wish I knew precisely what IP laws meant. What I do know is that under English civil law you can normally only sue for actual monetary damages.

Just because re-sellers are a "problem" for the company doesn't mean they're actually doing anything illegal.

The_Patriot
03-02-2008, 23:04
See I'm still not sure on the legality of this. It always sounds like a load of balls to me, particularly when they encourage conversions, golden daemon etc.

If you set yourself up as a company or you are devaluing their IP I can see that there might be some merit to a case, but conversions etc by fans, even if then sold on privately (that includes e-bay), have zilch to do with GW as a company.

I wish I knew precisely what IP laws meant. What I do know is that under English civil law you can normally only sue for actual monetary damages.

Just because re-sellers are a "problem" for the company doesn't mean they're actually doing anything illegal.

In most countries, once you sell a product it no longer is your property. It's hard to infringe upon a person's right to property and dispose of it as they see fit. The only way I can see it happening is through a contract signed by both parties, but there is no contract once you buy a miniature stating how the creator wants it to be used.

yabbadabba
04-02-2008, 09:30
That really wouldn't hold up in court thought. It's not unusual for any company to draw up terms that they come up with.

The point being that GW can print anything they want on their trade agreement, it still doesn't make it legal.

Yes but that is the point. You sign a contract and renege on it, GW can stop trading with you a begin the process of closing you down if you are trading illegally. It is then down to you to take them to court to prove a) that their contract was illegal and that b) they acted illegally by revoking your contract to trade.

I think we should walk away from this as the only party involved with this which actually knows the truth about trading law is GW, and they employ qualified to people to make these contracts right. Until someone actually proves GW wrong, then they are right by default and apathy.

Osbad
04-02-2008, 09:36
Well, no other miniature company offers a Bitz service, at least, to my knowledge. Might be wrong like!

I hate to mention it, but PP do:

http://store.privateerpress.com/

Never used it, but it works, apparently. Whether it is as good as GW's used to be, who knows?

Whether PP can continue to afford to offer the service for as long as GW managed to maintain it once their inventory has grown to GW's size... time will tell!

Gaebriel
04-02-2008, 09:46
I think the main argument is that GW's prices were largely justified when factoring in the implied services, eg a huge community, gaming space, large ranges, and not to the least a back-catalogue that gave you next to limitless freedom.

Everything that takes that away reduces the value of the product. Step by step, the customers have to take more and more of GW's mismanagement on their wallet with less and less equivalent value.

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-02-2008, 13:19
Bloody hell. I like BWB. It's the only way I'm going to be able to do half the conversions I intend to do. :cries:

*sigh* I suppose I'll just have to go on the black market... thanks a lot, GW. :wtf:

MadDogMike
04-02-2008, 18:49
Bet you the big winner on this will be E-Bay; I already see bunches of bitz sold there by people obviously breaking the kits up and selling them. This assumes they are of course killing bitz sales in general from Warstore as opposed to just preventing Internet sales, in which case what'll probably happen is Warstore will do bitz the way they currently do regular GW sales, you have to call them up to order. Annoying and an additional expense, but not killing bitz in general from Warstore.

Still, yet one more nail in the coffin of fan liking for GW, and I so thought they were finally starting to go on the right track with Apocalypse and the Ork stuff... *sigh*

gorgon
04-02-2008, 19:33
I think the main argument is that GW's prices were largely justified when factoring in the implied services, eg a huge community, gaming space, large ranges, and not to the least a back-catalogue that gave you next to limitless freedom.

Bingo! Premium prices are fine if they're providing premium services.

As for the Warstore, I'm not surprised, since the previous owner of BWB went through the same stuff before he sold the business. Not sure how Neal thought he was going to get away with it, unless his GW rep told him they'd bend the rules for him. And I doubt that. I wouldn't have a big problem with GW reigning in internet bitz sales if they were providing a similar service. I'll give my money to whomever, it doesn't make a lot of difference to me as long as I get the service I want. Looks like that's going to get harder, and I think GW will soon find a way to eliminate the plastic bitz sales altogether.

Maybe it's just me, but I find GW closing down their own bitz service to be extremely disheartening. They're sending this veteran a clear message -- they really don't care about me or my interests. For them to even suggest their new "service" somehow has value for me is just rubbing my nose in it.

If I decide to stay in the hobby (for the first time in 15+ years I think I can actually see that happening), I'll definitely be going to the secondary market as much as possible for my bitz and miniatures needs. That stands to thrive in the wake of some of GW's recent decisions.

Misfratz
04-02-2008, 23:08
Seriously, what's wrong with GW? No one is going to shell out €30 for a box to get a single bit. It's not like anyone not buying from a bits store is going to spend that money on GW.Hell no! No-one is going to do that! There'd have to be, er, crazy!

I've never done that.
I've never done that.
I've never done that.
I've never done that.

Honest.

Look, I'm sure I'll think of a use for the rest of it eventually.. Maybe if I combine it with a few of the bits from that other box..

selfconstrukt
04-02-2008, 23:25
I thought this was funny, I was on 4Chan on the /tg/ board and someone posted this about the Imperium, and it occured to me you can apply this to GW as a whole.


The whole point of the Imperium is that its an insanely over-bureaucratic byzantine hell hole full of corruption and incompetence where nothing really works properly and the people in charge of keeping things running don't actually know how they work.

I lol'd.

Caboose
04-02-2008, 23:53
there will be over 250 bitz packs coming out,

i got rather pissed off today, i wanted to order the tanith first and only to do a display paint job and found they have gone, i would have though they would have been popular because they were brilliant models

Bloodknight
05-02-2008, 00:00
They were also metal IG models and you need to be very dedicated to IG to fork that kind of money out...

susu.exp
05-02-2008, 06:23
I think shutting down bits services is unwise business wise. Post Apoc I´m sure some people ordered additional defiler legs and lower bodies to make brass scorpions, while I got me some torsos and claws to build knights. If I had had to buy the boxes completely, I wouldn´t have started the project (I bought about 250€ in bits, the boxes would´ve been well over 1000€). I can see GW avoiding the hassle and packed bits may reduce their mail order logistics. But then to ban other retailers from taking that job, organizing the bits packs into components and taking the risk of selling one bit over and over again at a loss, is just weird. A bits pack broken down by an indy is a bits pack sold by GW.

BigRob
05-02-2008, 06:54
So many questions...

so if I had a trade account and sold GW bits on my website/ebay then GW would come and close me down?

Now if my friend had a trade account, for his store and I sold the bits on my website/store....would GW close me down, and more importantly, how are they going to prove it?:D

If I am a random guy wo normally sells PP or D&D and being a warhammer fan I have alot of leftover bits and just sell my excess bits on eBay/Webstore will GW close me down?

I noticed in the original post, they mentioned shopping carts. I was under the impression from a discussion a while back that shopping carts were something GW tried to ban off Indie webstores because it was better than thier own website.

Is this like the GW/eBay argument regarding pre releases. Buying the pre release box from my local GW with models that arnt due out for months (I'm looking at you warhawk riders), flogging it component part on eBay and making a killing, something which caused GW to get ebay to ban the auctions as they were breaking the law?

Finally, whats that about not being allowed to sell conversions on ebay? I can sell what I like on Ebay, its MY stuff after all.

So confused...I need to cry in the corner:cries:

Ravenous
05-02-2008, 07:08
I dont even think thats the purpose. I cant think of any reason other than spite. This only effects US sites if Im not mistaken....

Yep, GWs Nazi-esq online tactics only apply to the US, so the rest of the world is okay. Ebay is another area where they can't touch you and frankly GW doesnt have the balls or money to bring something to court unless they know they can win. Ebay would bury them, and they dont have the attention span to attempt to change Canadian law.

Someone should just move battlewagon bitz to Canada, I can't imagine how it can be a stable source of income though. I would happily do it if I knew for certian there was a guaranteed return on it.

kesher
05-02-2008, 14:07
Hi guys, here is the deal.
We didn't want to announce this quite yet because when this happened at BWBits the orders went though the roof. First off I am the founder of BWBits. I now currently work for TheWarStore and one of my jobs, of course, is to monitor the bits side of the business which I previously owned.

Now as stated yes GW has given us 90 days to take the bits out of shopping cart format. So what does that really mean?

It means that you will no longer be able to process orders on the web through our site, however the pictures and pricing will still be on there for reference. As you know while at BWBits I was working on V2 of a downloadable catalog that is almost complete. It will be available for download and also in paper form for a nominal fee and include FREE downloadable updates!

The best part is that we will also have a downloadable order form that you can use to place orders just as easily as doing it over the web. And of course you can always call orders in to us.

In conclusion we are still committed to providing the largest bits selection on the internet, at the best prices possible. We just invested in a larger facility to house and process bits orders, and expanded our mailing operation. We are committed to you as much as you are to us.

Thanks and Happy Gaming
Rob Baer
Founder BWBits
Evil Warmaster TheWarStore

Vic
05-02-2008, 17:11
Thanks Rob!!

selfconstrukt
05-02-2008, 19:54
Thanks for the clarification, Rob.

But if you can still sell the bits, why exactly is GW making you take down your shopping cart function? I don't get that part at all.

jfrazell
05-02-2008, 20:09
No, but it does make it a legally binding contract.

So, it may not change the law per se, but you can sign a contract waiving certain rights. Like I did years ago in my first job, and regretted it ever since!

MD's correct, you can waive certain rights. However contracts can't enforce illegalities (at least in the US).

EDIT: good to hear about BW Bits

Emperor's Grace
05-02-2008, 20:50
They made it part of their policies and if you don't abide by GW rules then they won't sell to you.

Either he does what GW asks, or GW won't sell to him.

I think the question here is: who needs who more?

I think Neal is probably a rather significant chunk of their stateside (or at least East Coast) sales. I once heard a percentage around 30% being kicked around (although that was 8 or 9 years ago).

Personally, I think that it's an odd situation anyway given that Neal has both a B+M and internet presence. GW's trade policies were (supposed) to help the B+M's.


So many questions...

so if I had a trade account and sold GW bits on my website/ebay then GW would come and close me down?

Now if my friend had a trade account, for his store and I sold the bits on my website/store....would GW close me down, and more importantly, how are they going to prove it?:D

If I am a random guy wo normally sells PP or D&D and being a warhammer fan I have alot of leftover bits and just sell my excess bits on eBay/Webstore will GW close me down?

To be clear, GW can't "shut down" anyone. What they can do is refuse to trade with you (which makes it difficult to stay in business) or sue you and have the courts shut you down through "cease and desist", fees, or damages. The alternative is to have your hosting site shut you down at their request. Oddly enough, the threat of a lawsuit will often encourage the hosting site to pull your stuff regardless of legality.

To answer the ?'s:

1. They could stop trading with you and possibly sue (or threaten to sue) you or the hosting site for use of the pictures you posted of their products (IP).

2. Dangerous for him as, if they can prove it, they could stop trading with him. Also, they could possibly sue (or threaten to sue) you or the hosting site for use of the pictures you posted of their products (IP). If they can't prove it, but suspect it, they could give him less favorable terms. Remember that they could "sting" prove this by placing a chemical marker in the plastic sent to that store and buying through a dummy, if they were really interested.

3. They could possibly sue (or threaten to sue) you or the hosting site for use of the pictures you posted of their products (IP).

VetSgtNamaan
05-02-2008, 22:06
What I find so funyn about all this is how GW will just assume we (as a group) will just suddenly switch to buy from them at the drop of a hat? And if The War Store is that much of thier business then really only a retarded monkey would try to kill a major source of revenue. I know alot of people always make the threat that GW will sue and it is a huge threat till you realise the expense and time involved in the procedure over what the company will get out of it? McDonalds was big over suing green peace protestors in the Uk over thier leftlets disparaging McDonalds good name by saying most of the food at mcdonalds was very unhealthy. The end result of the 2 yr trial was well 2 yrs of very bad publicity for the company 5 million in legal costs. And oh yes they did win a 120 million dollar settlement which the two people involved said they would not pay and rather than go back to court for another beating by the media they let it drop. I suspect GW is not exactly in the position that it wants to start sueing its own biggest customers.

Ravenous
06-02-2008, 04:44
Hi guys, here is the deal.
We didn't want to announce this quite yet because when this happened at BWBits the orders went though the roof. First off I am the founder of BWBits. I now currently work for TheWarStore and one of my jobs, of course, is to monitor the bits side of the business which I previously owned.

Now as stated yes GW has given us 90 days to take the bits out of shopping cart format. So what does that really mean?

It means that you will no longer be able to process orders on the web through our site, however the pictures and pricing will still be on there for reference. As you know while at BWBits I was working on V2 of a downloadable catalog that is almost complete. It will be available for download and also in paper form for a nominal fee and include FREE downloadable updates!

The best part is that we will also have a downloadable order form that you can use to place orders just as easily as doing it over the web. And of course you can always call orders in to us.

In conclusion we are still committed to providing the largest bits selection on the internet, at the best prices possible. We just invested in a larger facility to house and process bits orders, and expanded our mailing operation. We are committed to you as much as you are to us.

Thanks and Happy Gaming
Rob Baer
Founder BWBits
Evil Warmaster TheWarStore

I was pondering something concerning the future of your and the other bitz companies.

How do you get your bitz? Because GW doesnt sell them normally or intelligently anymore so the only way to get them with a retailers discount is if you buy the original box. I can't see that as being profitable for you, although Im sure you have a stockpile of old bitz, but how are you going to keep up with the current releases?

BrainFireBob
06-02-2008, 06:14
GW has always made that mistake- it's the reasoning underlying opening their own stores near indies that are successful with their product. They presume there's enough demand to keep both stores afloat. They assume if they shut down online retailers, they'll get more foot traffic/more hits on their online store. They never ask why they're not getting those sales in the first place- it's assuming the consumer will continue to consume.

Vic
06-02-2008, 14:05
Its because they (GW) dont want to face the fact that given choice, an intelligent consumer will buy an item at a price that is attractive to them (the consumer). Neal gives 20% off GW product every day. Low shipping too. And service that is faster than snot (I timed it). Clubs can buy from him, so the old addage "we need a place to play" doesnt apply, especially here in the States where space isnt at such a high premium as UK. I play at home, so I dont have the need to really support a local shop who doesnt provide a discount.

Maybe GW should investigate a little further than the 6 inches in front of their face to see how Neal is doing so well. But I doubt they'd see the glaring reason - 20% off.

Ravenous
06-02-2008, 21:59
Its because they (GW) dont want to face the fact that given choice, an intelligent consumer will buy an item at a price that is attractive to them (the consumer). Neal gives 20% off GW product every day. Low shipping too. And service that is faster than snot (I timed it). Clubs can buy from him, so the old addage "we need a place to play" doesnt apply, especially here in the States where space isnt at such a high premium as UK. I play at home, so I dont have the need to really support a local shop who doesnt provide a discount.

Maybe GW should investigate a little further than the 6 inches in front of their face to see how Neal is doing so well. But I doubt they'd see the glaring reason - 20% off.

I think they more then realize what Neals doing and will try and close him down by any means necessary. Thus far they have gone out of their way to inconvience him.

sheck2
07-02-2008, 00:31
If I cannot get plastic bitz (as metal bitz is gone)...I am going to seriously reduce collecting GW stuff. This is just getting ridicuous.

It's like they want to go out of business...don't they get the harder they make it to buy stuff they way we want to buy stuff...the less we buy?

I do not mind paying for something but having to buy stuff I neither need nor want is dumb. I do not do it in business/work and I will not do it my personal life.

yabbadabba
07-02-2008, 09:38
If I cannot get plastic bitz (as metal bitz is gone)...I am going to seriously reduce collecting GW stuff. This is just getting ridicuous.

It's like they want to go out of business...don't they get the harder they make it to buy stuff they way we want to buy stuff...the less we buy?

I do not mind paying for something but having to buy stuff I neither need nor want is dumb. I do not do it in business/work and I will not do it my personal life.

I think you are kind of missing the point here. Read the codices and army books. Soon you won't need to order bits as everything you could want for your unit will be in the plastic box set.

GW are streamlining rules, army special rules and choices and their product line.

Avian
07-02-2008, 11:41
Soon you won't need to order bits as everything you could want for your unit will be in the plastic box set.
But what if I want Ruglud's head?

Binabik15
07-02-2008, 11:54
Or the GorkaMorka nobs I can´t even buy as a complete model (at least from the German website)?

I wanted them for quite a while, but at the moment there isn´t even a working search engine and when they had one it was wonky at best.

If you make it difficult to buy, I´ll pass and maybe scrap the project/conversion altogether.

And if I like good metal model I´m soon screwed, right? Because plastic for the price of metal rules, yay.

Gaebriel
07-02-2008, 12:13
Back when I still bought and built GW armies, I rarely had a model that didn't have a bit from another range on it - and not to represent a codex option, but to give it a unique look, or a look I thought be more fitting than the one GW chose. My whole army look was built on the bits catalogue alone.

For me that was what GW's range was about.

But I guess it's time for cloned uniformity now...

yabbadabba
07-02-2008, 15:02
But what if I want Ruglud's head?


Or the GorkaMorka nobs I can´t even buy as a complete model (at least from the German website)?

I wanted them for quite a while, but at the moment there isn´t even a working search engine and when they had one it was wonky at best.

If you make it difficult to buy, I´ll pass and maybe scrap the project/conversion altogether.

And if I like good metal model I´m soon screwed, right? Because plastic for the price of metal rules, yay.

'Fraid so. GW's back catalogue has now become a financial liability to carry on managing. So, in their eyes, they will drop it and in a few years they will replace their store based active customer base and no-one will remember. After all there are few veterans now (except probably on here ;)) who remember that GW used to distribute D+D, or at one point sold kites just to make ends meet. Or had a record label :wtf:


Back when I still bought and built GW armies, I rarely had a model that didn't have a bit from another range on it - and not to represent a codex option, but to give it a unique look, or a look I thought be more fitting than the one GW chose. My whole army look was built on the bits catalogue alone.

For me that was what GW's range was about.

But I guess it's time for cloned uniformity now...

It appears to me that what GW have learnt is that a) Young newbies don't care for individuality and don't know enough of the rules to care and that b) Tournament players as a rule tend to select roughly similar armies (due to the way the rules/army books are written) so there is no need for variety, depth and complexity to ANY of their stuff. Gone are the days of converting a model cos it felt right rather than it having any real significance in the game ... ... Gods help Golden Daemon.

If you really want to save access to bits, get GW Plc to follow the GWUS example and do Swap Shops in their stores. Otherwise be prepared to be dictated to about what your GW should look like. Or learn to sculpt.

dr.oetk3r
08-02-2008, 01:34
'Fraid so. GW's back catalogue has now become a financial liability to carry on managing. So, in their eyes, they will drop it and in a few years they will replace their store based active customer base and no-one will remember. After all there are few veterans now (except probably on here ;)) who remember that GW used to distribute D+D, or at one point sold kites just to make ends meet. Or had a record label :wtf:



It appears to me that what GW have learnt is that a) Young newbies don't care for individuality and don't know enough of the rules to care and that b) Tournament players as a rule tend to select roughly similar armies (due to the way the rules/army books are written) so there is no need for variety, depth and complexity to ANY of their stuff. Gone are the days of converting a model cos it felt right rather than it having any real significance in the game ... ... Gods help Golden Daemon.

If you really want to save access to bits, get GW Plc to follow the GWUS example and do Swap Shops in their stores. Otherwise be prepared to be dictated to about what your GW should look like. Or learn to sculpt.

QFT.

...and about that record label, Bolt thrower? God they are crap....

Ravenous
08-02-2008, 07:52
Here's a good one that made me shake my head today:

Working at the shop and unpacking the GW shipment I found that the owner had ordered the Imperial Armour Apocalypse book, so I asked him how the hell did he get it through regular sales and how much was it.

Our invoice didnt have what we paid for it, nor what we should sell it for. So we gave our sales rep a call and asked what the deal was.

What we paid for it: $46
What we should sell it for: $46

So he wanted us to take a 0% cut on the book, and when the owner said :wtf: the sales rep replied with "well we aren't making any money on it forgeworld is".

I'll let you figure it out and feel free to shake your head.

Jedi152
08-02-2008, 07:55
That does make me shake my head! Not making any money out of Forgeworld? It's £35 a squad and £80+ a tank and they've got a backlog of orders as long as my arm!


But what if I want Ruglud's head?
For me, it's simple. Where i would have once ordered bits direct from GW, i now go to eBay or WarSeer's trading forum.

It's nothing vindictive to GW - just common sense. Even they must know people won't buy a box for one bit.

Ravenous
08-02-2008, 07:59
That does make me shake my head! Not making any money out of Forgeworld? It's £35 a squad and £80+ a tank and they've got a backlog of orders as long as my arm!

That and its the same company.

With one hand they pocket the money, while the other hand is out saying they didnt make anything because the first hand took it. In the end it's going to the same place.

Vic
08-02-2008, 13:15
You should report the sales rep. GW does enough damage on its own without having a rep throw more fuel to the fire....

Ravenous
08-02-2008, 13:32
You should report the sales rep. GW does enough damage on its own without having a rep throw more fuel to the fire....

Not much point, we consider it usual (painful)business with GW, and its really out of his hands, he was trying to help even afterwards.

I hold no ill will towards their sales reps, they are merely pawns of a greater beast ;)

ctsteel
08-02-2008, 20:05
'Fraid so. GW's back catalogue has now become a financial liability to carry on managing. So, in their eyes, they will drop it and in a few years they will replace their store based active customer base and no-one will remember. After all there are few veterans now (except probably on here ;)) who remember that GW used to distribute D+D, or at one point sold kites just to make ends meet. Or had a record label :wtf:



It appears to me that what GW have learnt is that a) Young newbies don't care for individuality and don't know enough of the rules to care and that b) Tournament players as a rule tend to select roughly similar armies (due to the way the rules/army books are written) so there is no need for variety, depth and complexity to ANY of their stuff. Gone are the days of converting a model cos it felt right rather than it having any real significance in the game ... ... Gods help Golden Daemon.

If you really want to save access to bits, get GW Plc to follow the GWUS example and do Swap Shops in their stores. Otherwise be prepared to be dictated to about what your GW should look like. Or learn to sculpt.

This is very unfortunate, I have only been playing for a couple of years and I found it quite fascinating to delve through the online store's inventory and search engine looking for 'lost treasure' in the form of old collector's models to add to my force or maybe just acquire because it looks cool. Take Steel Legion, IG stormtroopers pre-kasrkin, some classic sisters of battle and so on. None of that would I have had the certain ability to buy (other sites are hit and miss), without the online store.

And now its all gone, purged.

Perhaps if their online store had been intelligently designed, such that you didn't have to do a search just to find the models (steel legion, stormtroopers were like this) then they would have been seen more, and sold more to new people, and this mentality of "it never sells" may not have existed.

I'm a relative newcomer but that doesn't mean I'm satisfied with the stock standard models. How do you think up cool conversions easily without the ability to flick through the parts in the online store, and visualise what this bit would look like matched with that bit.

I used this method to buy the parts for an inquisitor in terminator armour, I couldn't have done it without seeing how each part looks when not primed/glued together - how do I know if its just a hand or the whole arm?

I'm 31 and have disposable income - and unless their 'bitz packs' really up the ante, they will be missing out on that income. What really cheeses me off is this 'random model supplied' business, the whole point of buying bitz is to allow you to choose your own models/army. What do I do, play russian roulette buying 10 lots until I get what I want? Is this a collectible card game now?

Imperialis_Dominatus
08-02-2008, 21:11
But what if I want Ruglud's head?

Take it from him on the field of battle, preferably with an axe.

tarrin
09-02-2008, 04:02
What really cheeses me off is this 'random model supplied' business, the whole point of buying bitz is to allow you to choose your own models/army. What do I do, play russian roulette buying 10 lots until I get what I want? Is this a collectible card game now?

no no, sometimes if you look closely you get a random one for X dollars, but a specific one, even though its the damn thing will cost X +2 dollars.

ctsteel
09-02-2008, 05:41
i haven't seen that option anywhere in the catalog, got an example?

sheck2
09-02-2008, 14:34
I think you are kind of missing the point here. Read the codices and army books. Soon you won't need to order bits as everything you could want for your unit will be in the plastic box set.

GW are streamlining rules, army special rules and choices and their product line.

What you wrote is inaccurate. I woudl reflect back your statement - I think you are missing the point :) (this is friendly BTW)

I do conversion to make an army/model mine. I use plastic (perferred) and metal bitz. If I have to buy boxes of models to get parts OR I cannot convert because the rules and / or codices standardize everything (and do not allow creativity).

Then I will stop playing (and buying) GW games.

yabbadabba
09-02-2008, 15:14
... I cannot convert because the rules and / or codices standardize everything (and do not allow creativity).


My point exactly ;). The box sets will contain all you need that is reflected in the rules. Therefore, in GW's thinking, why would you need a bits service to do conversions you don't need to do because you already have all unit options in the box set you have just bought.

The_Patriot
09-02-2008, 15:28
My point exactly ;). The box sets will contain all you need that is reflected in the rules. Therefore, in GW's thinking, why would you need a bits service to do conversions you don't need to do because you already have all unit options in the box set you have just bought.

If it's anything like the new Chaos boxed sets then you'll only get one of those options and still be forced to pay more for of the same type of weapon.

VetSgtNamaan
09-02-2008, 17:32
i haven't seen that option anywhere in the catalog, got an example?

Sure check out the dark angel vet sarge. You bitz order it and get one of the three at random. Makes little poitn in bitz ordering when you only want the hooded dark angel vet sgt.

catbarf
09-02-2008, 18:52
My point exactly ;). The box sets will contain all you need that is reflected in the rules. Therefore, in GW's thinking, why would you need a bits service to do conversions you don't need to do because you already have all unit options in the box set you have just bought.

So, what you're suggesting is that the ONLY possible reason someone would want to convert would be to use an option in the rules that the model doesn't provide?

:wtf:

Whatever happened to converting for theme, or fluff, or fun?

Templar Ben
09-02-2008, 19:05
So, what you're suggesting is that the ONLY possible reason someone would want to convert would be to use an option in the rules that the model doesn't provide?

:wtf:

Whatever happened to converting for theme, or fluff, or fun?

I think he speaking more about the NEED to convert. I do find it odd since they are trying to push this "entire hobby" concept that they would then make one aspect, converting, more difficult.

The Inquisitor
09-02-2008, 19:56
Well, this is an interesting move, for a couple reasons:

First, they limit their overhead by not having to offer so many bitz. It streamlines part of their business model, and they likely are tracking what sells and what doesn't. They are not in the business of really helping people to make cool stuff, they are in it for the money, and will make available what is going to be 'more likely' to make them $$$$. Producing and having tons of bitz is not going to do that.

Second of all, by limiting bitz, they in effect 'FORCE' a lot of us to upgrade our minis to the latest versions, without having to say that old minis aren't legal. You want that new IG tank sprue? Sorry! You have to buy the tank. You want to upgrade to the new, cool weapons found in that box? Sorry, you'll just have to buy it.

Third, if they move to more and more plastics, they really won't have individual bitz anymore... just sprues.

They will justify stating that they give you WAY more bitz in a box than you need to build what you are building, sure. But still... this is all to make money. We shouldn't forget that. They are publically traded. They need to make a profit. No growth = dying. They are going to have to control costs, as they've likely realized that the slow down in the US and world economy will inhibit them from using their primary method of raising prices.

Lord Martel
10-02-2008, 06:55
Looking at the 40k Bits packages GW is offering I noticed the Iron Hands for $60. What a joke, I think they were $40 when I bought them two years ago. What I really want is the Thunder Hammer which I now have to spend $60 for. Give me a break.

I can tell you where this is going too led.

Bits casting.

We already have a guy in our group that can cast stuff really well. After it is primed up and painted there is no way to tell it’s not the original. I draw the line at casting a full model. However, I have no problem with casting small bits like heads and weapons that only have the effect of making the miniature look cool.

GW’s latest visit from the bright idea fairy has effectively neutered any real ability of the gamer to easily convert models outside of a limited range. Thus insuring a monochromatic (for lack of a better word) feel to the “hobby”. After a few years we will be looking at the same conversions limited to the small (if expanding) amount of bits given to us in the unit boxes. Are we going to be able to stand looking at the same Vet Sergeants holding the same two swords, power fists, bolt pistols in the same a half a dozen poses?

Armies that are given limited support and have smaller model ranges will suffer the worst of this effect.

Making unique models adds so much to the feel of the game. Little competitions between members of a gaming clique to produce the coolest miniature are lot fun.

As for me it is what the hobby is all about. And apparently what I will miss the most.

As a side note.

GW needs to take a very close look at what their policies are doing to the culture surrounding the “GW hobby”. GW’s only real advertising comes from its current players recruiting the next generation. Even popular products that bring people in from the cold like LoTR fail to hold those customers without a support mechanism (i.e. gamer groups).

Is it any wonder that we are not bring in new people to the hobby with the way GW is proceeding with rules, lack of FAQ, pricing, codex simplification, and now very restrictive bits availability? For most of us the people we would bring into the hobby would be friends. I am not cruel enough to inflict GW on those people.

Darkson
10-02-2008, 08:41
@ Lord Martel - round of applause.

sanctusmortis
10-02-2008, 09:06
It has to be said, I came in to GW at 40Kv2/BBv2. The rules were more expansive, the model range poor but all available in a parts catalogue IN WHITE DWARF, and the emphasis was on amazing conversions (we're talking the time of Mike McVey's "The Emperor and Horus"). Right now, 40K is less attractive than Dawn of War (ironically), and I can't get bitz to DO all the conversions I want. It's ironic that we now have a bigger range and more stagnant looking armies...

They've realised that they're pretty much their own competition, but they're not making the money. Their reaction has been, well, stupid.

yabbadabba
10-02-2008, 16:27
There is an element of "we fear change" going on here, and I'll explain.

We don't know the sales figures that are needed to rationalise our discussion. Therefore the only discussion routes we have are emotional and assumptive. This is assumptive.

Imagine you are a beancounter and you are tasked with increasing sales and/or decreasing costs. One of the areas you notice that has an extremely high cost:low profit: low overall sales ratio, and that's the bits service. You also notice that the capacity on the plastic sprues are below ideal.

The studio then announce that under the time and cost constraints they are going to concentrate on streamlining the games, as the additional rules needed to make the games layered and variably challenging take too long to playtest. They hope to get an online forum to discuss/playtest advanced rules - this however costs money.

Along comes a Senior management team who believe that the futrue of the company lies in kids and tournament players. They decide to implement streamlining but consider that the veteran community will develop their own rules, so don't sanction the online forum.

Seeing an opportunity to possibly re-invest money in a higher turnover/profit part of the business (and deciding that tournament gamers as a rule tend to appear with relatively similar armies and modelling is not part of the points structure) they also implement the streamlining of the bits service to reduce costs.

They also pack more onto the plastic sprues as this is an insignificant cost and players will appreciate buying a box set that actually contains all you need to build that box in any form in the books.

From a business perspective, it all makes sense. For me the one thing in this they screwed up was not talking to their customers about it and taking the time to explian properly.

Of course this is all assumptive ;)

Easy E
10-02-2008, 17:21
So, what you're saying is that Tournament players are not only guiding the way codex and rules are written, but they are driving the entire business model of GW?

That is an interesting thought.

By the way, I can totally see why they decided to do this froma business perspective. It makes a lot of sense. Of course, that's part of the problem hobbyists have in this new publicly traded GW environment. They were sold on the idea of a total hobby, but are assumed to support this sales idea with their own sweat and blood. Very few people are going to do that when they can buy Dawn of War instead.

yabbadabba
10-02-2008, 19:19
So, what you're saying is that Tournament players are not only guiding the way codex and rules are written, but they are driving the entire business model of GW?
That is an interesting thought.

Not quite but if you think about it Tournament players and New customers are probably, at the moment, two of the three customer types most easily identified and racked by GW - the other is painters.

All three are easily defined and catered for. All three are easy to track through sales and therefore easy to market and design for. Tournament players and Golden Daemon winners are easy for GW to talk to, are seen as "successful" and specialists in their own field of the hobby.

If someone asked me what kind of a hobbyist I am I would probably say "a bit of everything". That makes me subject to my whim and therefore very hard to design for, market to and therefore, ultimately, direct. Converters are not easy to track. I bet you that in those new "bitz packs" will be the best selling lines from the bits range. But that doesn't help guide inspiration, it just fulfills a need.

Cirrus the Blue
12-02-2008, 11:51
To anyone who isn't a Beakie player, this really does feel like a slap in the face.

Even to the Beakie players as much as every other army as much as I'm surprised to be saying so, this is still a giant middle finger...


In most countries, once you sell a product it no longer is your property. It's hard to infringe upon a person's right to property and dispose of it as they see fit. The only way I can see it happening is through a contract signed by both parties, but there is no contract once you buy a miniature stating how the creator wants it to be used.

Truth be told, we're paying through our figurative arses for the stuff, so technically we should be allowed to do whatever the frick we want to it, such as picking up a Space Marine Land Raider from the local GW and running over it with a steam roller in the parking lot and later putting the video footage up on Youtube! Actually, that's not such a bad idea... hahaha :angel:


Still, yet one more nail in the coffin of fan liking for GW, and I so thought they were finally starting to go on the right track with Apocalypse and the Ork stuff... *sigh*

...And the new Chaos Space Marine Codex, the upcoming incompatible Daemon Codex, the latest slash to the paint rack, the awesome new and 'improved' White Dwarf *choke*, and the blasting instantaneous shutdown of Black Industries and Dark Heresy.

For every one thing GW seems to do right (as with the Ork Codex and wicked awesome new Ork plastics), they go ahead and irreversably frick up half a dozen other things to 'balance it out'.



If I decide to stay in the hobby (for the first time in 15+ years I think I can actually see that happening)...

To quote the Beastie Boys: "WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY????????" :eek:


Finally, whats that about not being allowed to sell conversions on ebay? I can sell what I like on Ebay, its MY stuff after all.

That bit on their IP is absolute toss 'cause it's MY FIGURE and I should technically be able to do what I want with it as I paid through the figurative **** for it! (Still thinking of doing that Youtube video someday) People do this all the time on ebay anyway though, including multiple GD winners.


What I find so funyn about all this is how GW will just assume we (as a group) will just suddenly switch to buy from them at the drop of a hat?

What we've got to be asking ourselves is 'is it really worth the 40 extra dollars for convenience factor?' lol As thankfully BWB is sticking around, I'm gonna suck it up and write my orders on a piece of paper. SKROO YOO, GAMEZ WERKSHOP!!!


I think you are kind of missing the point here. Read the codices and army books. Soon you won't need to order bits as everything you could want for your unit will be in the plastic box set.

GW are streamlining rules, army special rules and choices and their product line.

At this rate, we might as well be buying prepaints! Or, heck, turning on the computer and plugging in Dawn of War! Way to keep that 'hobby side' of the game going, GW!


It appears to me that what GW have learnt is that a) Young newbies don't care for individuality and don't know enough of the rules to care and that b) Tournament players as a rule tend to select roughly similar armies (due to the way the rules/army books are written) so there is no need for variety, depth and complexity to ANY of their stuff. Gone are the days of converting a model cos it felt right rather than it having any real significance in the game ... ... Gods help Golden Daemon.

Yet one more reason not to buy White Dwarf! (as though it needed any extra, eh?) The Golden Daemon was the final appealing aspect of White Dwarf (which isn't a lot considering websites sites such as coolminiornot that we can access for FREE!!!) and that's seriously going to suffer, only allowing people with bucketsfull of backlogged bitz any hope of placing. I'm predicting that in about 5 years time when those bitz run out, all we'll see for Golden Daemon entries (besides fullsculpt) are 'Another Generic Space Marine!' - Painted by 'Some Famous Painter' *smirk*


It's nothing vindictive to GW - just common sense. Even they must know people won't buy a box for one bit.

I'm sure that GW's frequently using the cliche phrase 'There's a sucker born every minute!' :rolleyes:


I'm 31 and have disposable income - and unless their 'bitz packs' really up the ante, they will be missing out on that income. What really cheeses me off is this 'random model supplied' business, the whole point of buying bitz is to allow you to choose your own models/army. What do I do, play russian roulette buying 10 lots until I get what I want? Is this a collectible card game now?

Like I said... There's a sucker born every minute! lol


If it's anything like the new Chaos boxed sets then you'll only get one of those options and still be forced to pay more for of the same type of weapon.

I heard a LONG time ago with the release of the new Bugs that if you have one figure in the squad with the appropriate stuff, then you are allowed to assume the full squad has the same. It's still a completely lame and cheezy tactic for forcing us to buy all the more stuff, though...


So, what you're suggesting is that the ONLY possible reason someone would want to convert would be to use an option in the rules that the model doesn't provide?

Whatever happened to converting for theme, or fluff, or fun?

Now why on earth would anyone want to go and do something like that?! Oh! BECAUSE IT'S A HOBBY, YOU SAY?!?! Ahhh, pish-tosh! lol We all know everyone who plays 40K only gives a damn about the Ultramarines, Black Legion, and Cadians, after all. *pointing to mine, and most everyone else's forum avatars, proving my point* :rolleyes:


Making unique models adds so much to the feel of the game. Little competitions between members of a gaming clique to produce the coolest miniature are lot fun.

As for me it is what the hobby is all about. And apparently what I will miss the most.


I couldn't have said it any better, myself.

As for the sculpting aspect (the forum didn't seem to multiquote everything I wanted to), everyone said I was crazy for choosing to learn how to sculpt above and beyond painting. Who's laughing now, eh?! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Seriously though, it's a valuable skill to pick up, especially in such circumstances as these...

- Cirrus

jfrazell
12-02-2008, 12:09
I think you are kind of missing the point here. Read the codices and army books. Soon you won't need to order bits as everything you could want for your unit will be in the plastic box set.

GW are streamlining rules, army special rules and choices and their product line.


And that has nothing to do with my converting. The 55 wolf head converted bloodletters I made didn't require conversion to be legal in the first place, neither did the Dragon ogres or Shaggoths.

I don't convert to make an army "legal." I convert to make it different. Same as other people paint their minis. If all I want is a legal list i can play EPIC, FOW or a computer game. Reuce me to that level and 40K ranks pretty low.

Huw_Dawson
12-02-2008, 12:23
Wow. This is just a "GW can't do anything right, they suck" thread. And it started off so well, too...

Oooh well. I think the intelligent voice has come out with yabbadabba, and I therefore agree with him.

And if you are collecting an army, surely you will have enough bitz from the sprues and blisters by the end of it for interesting conversions? Or, shock horror, sculpt them? I mean, I have boxes of excess bitz of Space Marines, Nids, Dwarves and so forth, and I'm not exactly a hardcore hobbyist.

Just step back from the soap box for a second.

(Also, a squad of Iron Hands was something like £40-60 here a while back, and with the new price it is now actually possible to do an army of the little mechanical fellas :D)

- Huw

EDIT: I'm not a massive man for converting, but I DID manage to get three Dwarven heroes out of the XXX box. Does that count? :p

jfrazell
12-02-2008, 12:25
There is an element of "we fear change" going on here, and I'll explain.

We don't know the sales figures that are needed to rationalise our discussion. Therefore the only discussion routes we have are emotional and assumptive. This is assumptive.

Imagine you are a beancounter and you are tasked with increasing sales and/or decreasing costs. One of the areas you notice that has an extremely high cost:low profit: low overall sales ratio, and that's the bits service. You also notice that the capacity on the plastic sprues are below ideal.

The studio then announce that under the time and cost constraints they are going to concentrate on streamlining the games, as the additional rules needed to make the games layered and variably challenging take too long to playtest. They hope to get an online forum to discuss/playtest advanced rules - this however costs money.

Along comes a Senior management team who believe that the futrue of the company lies in kids and tournament players. They decide to implement streamlining but consider that the veteran community will develop their own rules, so don't sanction the online forum.

Seeing an opportunity to possibly re-invest money in a higher turnover/profit part of the business (and deciding that tournament gamers as a rule tend to appear with relatively similar armies and modelling is not part of the points structure) they also implement the streamlining of the bits service to reduce costs.

They also pack more onto the plastic sprues as this is an insignificant cost and players will appreciate buying a box set that actually contains all you need to build that box in any form in the books.

From a business perspective, it all makes sense. For me the one thing in this they screwed up was not talking to their customers about it and taking the time to explian properly.

Of course this is all assumptive ;)

You forgot the last part "along comes of the law firms and trustor to put the Company into receivership, and sell the remaining assets to repay their creditors."

SKU management is fine, but they also are attempting to shut down Bits services. That effectively attempts to end a complete revenue stream for them, when all they had to do it was outsource it. The phrase screamingly moronic comes to mind.




And if you are collecting an army, surely you will have enough bitz from the sprues and blisters by the end of it for interesting conversions? Or, shock horror, sculpt them? I mean, I have boxes of excess bitz of Space Marines, Nids, Dwarves and so forth, and I'm not exactly a hardcore hobbyist.

Er no. Else people wouldn't be griping about it now would they? using the items on a sprue for vanilla marines, for vanilla marines is not converting, thats just making your list. Using parts from BT's, eldar, and Dark Elves for one heavily modified scout squad is.

Nurglitch_PS
12-02-2008, 14:00
SKU management is fine, but they also are attempting to shut down Bits services. That effectively attempts to end a complete revenue stream for them, when all they had to do it was outsource it. The phrase screamingly moronic comes to mind.

It was effectively outsourced in the form of Battle Wagon. They have tried to shut it down. Mind boggling, really.

jfrazell
12-02-2008, 14:35
It was effectively outsourced in the form of Battle Wagon. They have tried to shut it down. Mind boggling, really.

Exactly. A brilliantly poor decision. I can understand lowering the SKU count. I cannot cunderstand trying to shut down a third party, performing the service you don't want to do and still rpoviding sales to GW. Indeed this screams "joint venture."

sanctusmortis
12-02-2008, 15:09
Wow. This is just a "GW can't do anything right, they suck" thread. And it started off so well, too...

Oooh well. I think the intelligent voice has come out with yabbadabba, and I therefore agree with him.

And if you are collecting an army, surely you will have enough bitz from the sprues and blisters by the end of it for interesting conversions? Or, shock horror, sculpt them? I mean, I have boxes of excess bitz of Space Marines, Nids, Dwarves and so forth, and I'm not exactly a hardcore hobbyist.

Just step back from the soap box for a second.

(Also, a squad of Iron Hands was something like £40-60 here a while back, and with the new price it is now actually possible to do an army of the little mechanical fellas :D)

- Huw

EDIT: I'm not a massive man for converting, but I DID manage to get three Dwarven heroes out of the XXX box. Does that count? :p

Okay... Here's the deal.

Not everyone LIKES how the standard units look. Personally? Love CSMs, hate a lot of the models - and ditto Tau. I'm not collecting an army for its models, I collect it for the WHOLE; fluff, rules, and my ideas.

It's not necessary to convert an army, no - but it makes it more YOURS. Some conversions are done better utilising bits, such as creating your own Obliterators. Sculpting will only get you so far, as let's face it - if they're willing to crack down on bitz sellers, they're not going to like you scultping copies of their bitz either.

If I can only have a CSM army that looks like one in the books, then that's me out of the hobby. It's just not worth the money to be shoehorned into a certain look. Paint schemes just don't do enough. It's a shame, as I was finally looking at possibly being able to get back into the hobby; now, GW close the door on my plans, and I just walk away.

As for "surely there are parts in the kits to do what you want?" - well, okay then; how much would it cost to have an entire CSM squad in the same armour, to look unified? Never mind Obliterators that are made to look like they're self-repairing after grievous wounds, Daemon Princes that are giant Daemon Engines made to resemble games characters, and millions of other little ideas in my head. A bitz box can only go so far.

Avian
12-02-2008, 15:25
They also pack more onto the plastic sprues as this is an insignificant cost and players will appreciate buying a box set that actually contains all you need to build that box in any form in the books.

From a business perspective, it all makes sense. For me the one thing in this they screwed up was not talking to their customers about it and taking the time to explian properly.
In this case, it only makes sense if you have failed to grasp the reason why people convert in the first place. They do it not because they need to, but because they want to.

Take my Orc Warboss on foot conversion, for example. It consists of Ruglud's head, right arm and body, plus the Wyvern rider shield. Unique, just as an army general should be. Cost something like £7.

Currently, to get the bitz you want for that some conversion you need to pay £55 (Wyvern rider + Armoured Orcs regiment).

As the saying goes: GW may be using logic, but it is mainly stupid logic

yabbadabba
12-02-2008, 16:07
In this case, it only makes sense if you have failed to grasp the reason why people convert in the first place. They do it not because they need to, but because they want to.

Take my Orc Warboss on foot conversion, for example. It consists of Ruglud's head, right arm and body, plus the Wyvern rider shield. Unique, just as an army general should be. Cost something like £7.

Currently, to get the bitz you want for that some conversion you need to pay £55 (Wyvern rider + Armoured Orcs regiment).

As the saying goes: GW may be using logic, but it is mainly stupid logic

No Avian, I have not failed to grasp the reason. I am like everyone else here. I have 8 large storage boxes of bits in my loft (attic) organised by game type e.t.c. ready for conversions - let alone unbroken down sprues and box sets. I like my characters to be unique if I can, and because my tactics are at best - average - I like designing armies that have themes and stories. I don't support the loss of a comprehensive bits service with GW's product, or that service not being outsource. I have as much time under my belt in this hobby as anyone here.

However, as always, these discussions rarely include a balanced perspective about the decisions GW makes. This is because we are all involved in a hobby that we enjoy, that encourages us to be creative, possessive, competitive and a little obsessive. We are also all reasonably intelligent. This doesn't necessarily stop us from being emotive and narrow minded when discussing subjects around our hobby. GW will make decisions that will move the company in the direction that they, and their majority shareholders, want it too. The decisions they make rarely lack logic or business sense, but have more an more recently gone against previous accepted norms from GW, or many other hobby companies.

The fact that you as a hobbyist and a direct/indirect customer don't agree with it is not a factor here. An awful lot of people fled GW when they stopped distributing and promoting other products like D+D. Even more left when Rogue Trader was replaced by 40K - especially when they banned the old models from the stores (:wtf:). And yet GW still stands as the largest and most successful company of it's type in the world.

We are all feeling hurt and abandoned because GW has made a decision, taken something of value away from us, haven't discused it with us, and haven't even said sorry. I have grasped the reason for conversions I just feel to encourage the discussion, some balance is needed here.

Preach over ;)

Cirrus the Blue
12-02-2008, 16:24
We are all feeling hurt and abandoned because GW has made a decision, taken something of value away from us, haven't discused it with us, and haven't even said sorry. I have grasped the reason for conversions I just feel to encourage the discussion, some balance is needed here.

Preach over ;)

Truth be told, I've prolly said my fair share of overheated emotions aimed squarely at GW, but it's still immensely aggrivating the choices they're making all the same, business decisions or otherwise that end up alienating the veteran players at such a level. :(

- Cirrus

catbarf
12-02-2008, 18:45
So, Yabbadabba, you're not trying to defend the decision, instead you're saying that this is just another logic-less move by GW.

What?

selfconstrukt
12-02-2008, 19:38
Right now most everyone here is on the "anger" or "denial" stage.

Eventually you'll hit "acceptance" and drop $100+ on GW stuff and recall the bits service with nostalgia to all the n00bs just starting out.

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-02-2008, 21:03
Wow. This is just a "GW can't do anything right, they suck" thread. And it started off so well, too...

Well, GW doesn't seem to be doing anything right (threads scrutinizing managerial decisions), and they seem to be sucking (tanking sales is the word on the street), so it follows that people might be led to think that way. I mean, it's just a remote, distinct possibility.


And if you are collecting an army, surely you will have enough bitz from the sprues and blisters by the end of it for interesting conversions? Or, shock horror, sculpt them? I mean, I have boxes of excess bitz of Space Marines, Nids, Dwarves and so forth, and I'm not exactly a hardcore hobbyist.

Yeah. If I want to use only those bits. Or had bits from multiple armies lying around. But not all of us a) want to use bits from one army only or b) have more than one army; ergo bits services are useful. I don't have the time to become hardcore enough to sculpt, I don't have the money to buy truckloads of GW products for a handful of bits, I don't want to buy a full metal model just for his backpack. So, what do you expect me to do when GW decides that they won't provide that service anymore? Honestly.


Right now most everyone here is on the "anger" or "denial" stage.

Eventually you'll hit "acceptance" and drop $100+ on GW stuff and recall the bits service with nostalgia to all the n00bs just starting out.

Actually, some people will just surf Ebay and BWB if they have to, in lieu of giving GW money for being retarded.

sanctusmortis
12-02-2008, 21:31
Right now most everyone here is on the "anger" or "denial" stage.

Eventually you'll hit "acceptance" and drop $100+ on GW stuff and recall the bits service with nostalgia to all the n00bs just starting out.

Are you kidding? I've not dropped a load of cash on GW since Tau were new!

Now, they've lost a couple of hundred quid's bitz order that I was planning to do. Silly, silly business, as I don't really do kits.

I already recall with fondness when WD printed parts lists. I mean, ****'s sake, the online store bitz service was awkward enough, and now there's not even that!

RadiO
13-02-2008, 03:33
The fact that you as a hobbyist and a direct/indirect customer don't agree with it is not a factor here. An awful lot of people fled GW when they stopped distributing and promoting other products like D+D. Even more left when Rogue Trader was replaced by 40K - especially when they banned the old models from the stores (:wtf:). And yet GW still stands as the largest and most successful company of it's type in the world.

Here's the thing though:
I'd say the discontinuation of Bitz is the biggest single change in GW's history. Effectively, the "GW Hobby" doesn't mean the same thing it did last month. We're in a different paradigm now.


We are all feeling hurt and abandoned because GW has made a decision, taken something of value away from us, haven't discused it with us, and haven't even said sorry. I have grasped the reason for conversions I just feel to encourage the discussion, some balance is needed here.

It is a massive, fundemental change. A radical change, even.
For the past, what, 25 years or so? The GW hobby had model construction as a major aspect, and a major subaspect was of that was conversions.
And for every one of those 25 years, GW actively encouraged conversions in every publication they produced, and supported them with a comprehensive parts catalogue.
So, with this in mind, what are we to make of the overturning of two decades' worth of tradition?
Personally, I don't think the decision to curtail/scrap Bitz is the result of beancounting, or a short term fix to keep the shareholders happy.
If it was, why wouldn't they still stock bitz from models that are currently being produced? That's free additional sales from molds already in frequent use. But they're quite deliberately not doing that.
The Bitz catalogue seems to be full of baffling choices and self-defeating randomly-selected models. It's a token effort, putting definate limits on what a gamer can make.
Why would they do this?
I think what it comes down to is that GW's perception of us has shifted. GW expects us to be gamers. They expect us to be painters. What they don't seem to expect us to be anymore is modellers.
When you look at it, the model construction side of the hobby has been gradually minimalised for years. It's a deliberate, engineered process.
Look how many of the current wave of plastics are set up to be assembled one way and only one way, resulting in readily-constructed, boilerplate units that match the codex or army book entry exactly. Seperate heads and piles of accessories give an impression of individuality, but not at the expense of complicating assembly.
Or, come to that, interferring with game mechanics. Classic example - the really rather super Chaos Terminator Lord. Lots of wizzy components, but at the end of the day, the finished article is always going to be one of about four different combinations of parts. But it's easily identifiable as who it's meant to be, has every option available and leaves no room for WYSIWYG quibbiling.
I suspect that GW views conversions as queering the pitch in some way, and would much rather everybody use a single, readily identifiable minature for every codex or book entry. We saw something of this back in 2003/04 with the metal Cadian and Catachan officers released for the new IG codex. Wasn't it odd how every single officer was in the same 'YMCA' pose? When a Guard army might have two or three of these guys, why would you want them all to be identical? But it wasn't odd. They wanted all the officers to be in the same pose to make them easier to pick out at a glance on the tabletop. Standardisation.
I reckon that's why they've all-but-killed bitz. It's because they sincerely believe conversions to be a source of confusion and potential rulebending that they have now wiped out of existance.
So as far as I can see, we're still painters and gamers but the modelling side of the hobby has effectively been phased out. That's a major change, even if all it really represents is the final rubberstamping of a process that began years ago.

Cirrus the Blue
13-02-2008, 04:01
I noticed something yesterday with the new Ork Boyz sprue when I was attempting to make a conversion for a heavy weapon for my Trukk with a pair of gun grips, but to my disappointment (luckilly I still have a couple of the old sprues) I noticed that they removed the extra unheld guns!!

My point is, that as much extra stuff they might be putting on the new sprues, they're limiting them at the same time for what you can actually do for a conversion! They're not even giving us the bitz we want for conversion work on the plastic sprues anymore! And that kinda seriously sucks, really... What's the point of buying a whole extra box of sprues for one bit to begin with, especially if you can't even get that one freaking bit you needed in the first place anymore?! :wtf:

It's as though the aesthetic side to the hobby doesn't even matter! It's all strictly function now. Compensation in modelling only goes so far for so long without decent sculpting skills and application before a figure looks truly mediocre, and continuing at that rate, what's the point anymore?

- Cirrus

Vaz84
13-02-2008, 04:15
It'd be nice if they did include full weapon options, or atleast 2-3 of each option in a unit box. Asking for a box of 5 chaos terminators to include 5 lighting claw sets, plus ranged, plus combi, etc. I understand the excess there.

Why couldnt they just make use of weapon packs? Here are your basic termies, now here's a 10$ pack for 5 sets of claws, or heck, cast the claws out of metal and put them in a blister pack.

Anyone who's walked into a GW lately might feel the same, but i notice the blister packs are disapearing from the wall pretty fast, and being replaced by boxes, squad boxes. This is both good and bad, like for eldar, you dont really need two exarchs if you want 10 squad members.

I cant say I really care for GW the "gaming company".. GW the "hobby" company was always my friend, now my friend is addicted to quick fix highs and not the long term.

I dont think I could marry GW anymore, far too abusive and neglectful.

Osbad
13-02-2008, 07:52
So, Yabbadabba, you're not trying to defend the decision, instead you're saying that this is just another logic-less move by GW.

What?

I think he's saying that while it may or may not be logical, and indeed it is upsetting to many who have posted here because it disrupts the hobby as they enjoy it. But, far from being ignorant of your pain, GW have factored it into their equation and decided that the lesser of two evils for their bottom line is to nevertheless close the old-style bitz service.

As we all know vets are reviled by GW and their desires are not considered important in the larger scheme of things in the face of the hordes of screaming 12-year-olds waiting to eagerly buy new Battle for My-crack boxed sets...

The loss of business from dispossessed modellers is likely considered a small price to pay for the reduction in cost and the longer term improved efficiency in distribution, as for the next generation of 12-year-olds they will never have known a bitz service and so won't miss it.

Something like that anyhow.

Rick_1138
13-02-2008, 08:21
TBF to GW, the bits ordeing service was a massive cost in regards to space required to hold all the stuff. and given the cost of property in the UK atm, i agree that for the few who may order the left no3 tzeentch horror arm, this was a pain, but for the majority of gamers, this was not going to happen.

GW made a decision that it was wasting space and cash having all this stuff lying around and costing them money. Okay so they remove bits orders, fair enough, and they have stated that they will release bits packs, and i am reserving judgement till i see them.

I have a big compartmentalised (i had the flu and it was easy to snip of sprues and sort whilst in a bed with a film on) B&Q box with all my bits, it is very useful, but it was all made up from spare bits from boxes i have bought over time, i.e. marines, eldar et al.

GW know that many gamers have a bits box and i think they would rather we use those things to make conversions etc, however my main issue is the BITZ catalogue, i had a look through this and its not a bits catalogue, its a few models and 1 or 2 collectors models and assosiated bits for about a quarter of them, this is a poor show, and i hope its just a splash release until the bits packs come out, especially if GW is clamping down on the likes of Battlewagon bitz etc.

As i dont want to buy a box every time i want a slaneeshy lord head etc for a converted unti. However converting isnt that hard with Green stuff, and if you use an old bit for the starting point and use some GS to add a bit of unique detail you can make a mould for the same piece, i have done this and it does make for some fun modelling, especially when you get asked houw you did that etc.

Bitz ordering is dead....we can but hop that we get to say 'long live bits' in the near future.

yabbadabba
13-02-2008, 09:22
So, Yabbadabba, you're not trying to defend the decision, instead you're saying that this is just another logic-less move by GW.

What?

No it is logical - just not to us in our own little world.



So as far as I can see, we're still painters and gamers but the modelling side of the hobby has effectively been phased out. That's a major change, even if all it really represents is the final rubberstamping of a process that began years ago.

This does highlight what I said. As modellers we are unpredictable, capricious and uncontrolable. Who knows what the next conversion would look like. The bits packs will have the most popular and codex related lines in, and that's all.



The loss of business from dispossessed modellers is likely considered a small price to pay for the reduction in cost and the longer term improved efficiency in distribution, as for the next generation of 12-year-olds they will never have known a bitz service and so won't miss it.


Exactly. We do not have any figures representing GW's Bits cost operation or it's sales. For instance, it probably costs less to send an entire tank as replacement for a mis-moulded track piece than it is to send just the track. The reason being that the tank has already been made, packaged and factored as a cost. On top of the order and post process that would go on anyway, GW would have to pay someone to go and pick and package the tank track, pay someone to track the cost of the track piece and how is picking up that cost, and pay someone to make a new tank track to replace the one sent out e.t.c.

I think you can see where I am going with this. As a model, this might work with high value parts, a specialist service or a business in a very low cost country, but not in the UK. And as we know, what GW does in one country it tries to replicate all over the world, whether right or not.

Again let me state I don't agree with this move by GW. All the evidence before me points to GW streamlining their whole operation - from staffing to rules to bits.

As RadiO hinted towards, this is the start of the end of an era. Soon all we will have left is nostalgia, bits and Ebay :cries:

Nurglitch_PS
13-02-2008, 09:25
As a model, this might work with high value parts, a specialist service or a business in a very low cost country

Like BattleWagon in the USA?

yabbadabba
13-02-2008, 09:33
Like BattleWagon in the USA?

I classify that as a specialist service. We don't know about his mark up, costs e.t.c. Neal (?) might be willing to accept a smaller profit margin over a smaller sales volume than GW in order to get people to visit his site.

I wouldn't know mate. It's all just speculation!

Keravin
13-02-2008, 10:08
(Also, a squad of Iron Hands was something like £40-60 here a while back, and with the new price it is now actually possible to do an army of the little mechanical fellas :D)


When? The Iron Hands squad has been £20 for as long as I can remember from the online store. The only problem is that we never got the Iron Father.

Cirrus the Blue
13-02-2008, 11:15
It'd be nice if they did include full weapon options, or atleast 2-3 of each option in a unit box. Asking for a box of 5 chaos terminators to include 5 lighting claw sets, plus ranged, plus combi, etc. I understand the excess there.

Why couldnt they just make use of weapon packs? Here are your basic termies, now here's a 10$ pack for 5 sets of claws, or heck, cast the claws out of metal and put them in a blister pack.

Anyone who's walked into a GW lately might feel the same, but i notice the blister packs are disapearing from the wall pretty fast, and being replaced by boxes, squad boxes. This is both good and bad, like for eldar, you dont really need two exarchs if you want 10 squad members.

I cant say I really care for GW the "gaming company".. GW the "hobby" company was always my friend, now my friend is addicted to quick fix highs and not the long term.

I dont think I could marry GW anymore, far too abusive and neglectful.

Now THIS is a great idea!!! :D Too bad GW doesn't care what we have to say about this sort of thing, however...

But yeah, it's always rough when such a good friend gets addicted to drugs. :( (lol)

- Cirrus

Ravenous
13-02-2008, 16:03
It'd be nice if they did include full weapon options, or atleast 2-3 of each option in a unit box. Asking for a box of 5 chaos terminators to include 5 lighting claw sets, plus ranged, plus combi, etc. I understand the excess there.

Why couldnt they just make use of weapon packs? Here are your basic termies, now here's a 10$ pack for 5 sets of claws, or heck, cast the claws out of metal and put them in a blister pack.

Anyone who's walked into a GW lately might feel the same, but i notice the blister packs are disapearing from the wall pretty fast, and being replaced by boxes, squad boxes. This is both good and bad, like for eldar, you dont really need two exarchs if you want 10 squad members.

I cant say I really care for GW the "gaming company".. GW the "hobby" company was always my friend, now my friend is addicted to quick fix highs and not the long term.

I dont think I could marry GW anymore, far too abusive and neglectful.

They tried the weapons pack idea and it apparently failed, although GW didnt bother really to push it.

As for the Eldar exarchs I think its rather handy to have both exarchs because you can field them with different weapons so you dont have to go out and buy a new one.

But then again if you dont need it then its kind of useless, they could have easily dropped the price down to $35 for 5 aspect warriors and have the exarch in a blister, but as you already said GW is moving away from blisters.

Our sales rep has told us a few times that by 2012 the blister packs should be no more, it could just be wishful thinking though, or a joke that the world is going to apparently end in 2012. Either way Im holding him to it.

selfconstrukt
13-02-2008, 19:26
Exactly. We do not have any figures representing GW's Bits cost operation or it's sales. For instance, it probably costs less to send an entire tank as replacement for a mis-moulded track piece than it is to send just the track. The reason being that the tank has already been made, packaged and factored as a cost. On top of the order and post process that would go on anyway, GW would have to pay someone to go and pick and package the tank track, pay someone to track the cost of the track piece and how is picking up that cost, and pay someone to make a new tank track to replace the one sent out e.t.c. ......

As RadiO hinted towards, this is the start of the end of an era. Soon all we will have left is nostalgia, bits and Ebay :cries:

It costs the same to send just the track.

Vaz84
13-02-2008, 23:23
If GW intends to melt down all these bitz they will save some money on metal models for the next few months or more, for sure. We might see a lower raw materials cost on their financial sheets (balence sheet specifically). This is what staff seems to be telling me from two different locations, old bitz melted down to be used in new models. This is good, but wont translate into any savings on the consumer. This lowered cost in inventory and reuse of the metal will have some bottom line savings at the end of the year. While this is good business sense, it goes back on the whole modeling aspect of the hobby.

Will

Savings of Removing Bitz Sales ( > or = or < ) Lost Sales from Disatisfyed Consumers

Avian
14-02-2008, 12:35
They chose to "shoot the horse with the broken leg" so to speak.

Yes, it saves GW money since stock sitting around has a cost associated with it, and pulling and shipping order is faster and easier.

There were alternatives, its just nobody at GW really wanted to deal with it at the time, or put the effort into fixing the problems.
Isn't it then strange that they appear quite willing to put effort into making sure nobody else sells bitz?

yabbadabba
14-02-2008, 14:27
Isn't it then strange that they appear quite willing to put effort into making sure nobody else sells bitz?

I thought that the two things GW insists on are no shopping carts and if you are the original trade account, you have to sell the product on in the form it was sold to you.

Doesn't stop people selling bits. Makes it harder, yes but not impossible. My contact at UKGWHQ said that the second condition came about to stop people buying battleforces, breaking them up and selling the individual units on, rather than to stop a bits market.

You might have to be a bit clever but I can't see where GW stops businesses selling bits.

t-tauri
14-02-2008, 14:43
Isn't it then strange that they appear quite willing to put effort into making sure nobody else sells bitz?This is only in the US and with the shopping carts "Save the Brick and Mortar Stores" effort by GW US. UK bitz sellers seem to be going fine judging by the number on ebay.
I thought that the two things GW insists on are no shopping carts and if you are the original trade account, you have to sell the product on in the form it was sold to you.In the UK and Europe you can have a shopping cart but can't use GW's pictures of minis as I understand it.


Doesn't stop people selling bits. Makes it harder, yes but not impossible. My contact at UKGWHQ said that the second condition came about to stop people buying battleforces, breaking them up and selling the individual units on, rather than to stop a bits market.I was told that's one reason why the army deals with limited minis were stopped. Traders were buying the deals at trade prices, breaking them up and selling the units and limited mini on ebay for significant profits.

Brother Loki
14-02-2008, 14:52
Easy - just make 2 companies. Retail company A buys stock from GW and sells direct to customers at whatever price, and also sells it to bitz company B at trade. Company B breaks it up for bitz. All well within the contract.

I honestly don't know how they get away with that no shopping cart shenanigans in the US. You guys must not have very good anti-competitiveness laws there. UK and EU based online stores can sell GW online to their hearts content.

jfrazell
14-02-2008, 15:05
I thought that the two things GW insists on are no shopping carts and if you are the original trade account, you have to sell the product on in the form it was sold to you.

Doesn't stop people selling bits. Makes it harder, yes but not impossible. My contact at UKGWHQ said that the second condition came about to stop people buying battleforces, breaking them up and selling the individual units on, rather than to stop a bits market.

You might have to be a bit clever but I can't see where GW stops businesses selling bits.

And it shoots themselves in the foot. They are failing to take advantage of the bitz market. A joint venture with battlewagon or someone else would have kept revenue streams comign in while eliminating the inventory costs. Everybody wins and its a basic strategy, since the 80s.

yabbadabba
14-02-2008, 15:22
And it shoots themselves in the foot. They are failing to take advantage of the bitz market. A joint venture with battlewagon or someone else would have kept revenue streams comign in while eliminating the inventory costs. Everybody wins and its a basic strategy, since the 80s.

And there you have hit the nail on the head. If the bits market was such a money spinner, why haven't GW licensed it off or created a subsidary company to trade in it? Could it be that back in the day when they decided this strategy their conclusion was that bits were not enough of a turnover to be done properly? Enough for a "cottage " business like BWB, but not enough to justify the ongoing cost of setting it all up in the first place.

It's all speculation as we don't have access to figures e.t.c. It could be that GW's short term predicitions are that white metal is a thing of the past and/or a material which will eventually be in short supply. Or even that metal and plastic are an interim material, and that they have started to phase out metal and soon we will see another material in the business. All make bits at the moment worth phasing out.

I just don't know mate.

jfrazell
14-02-2008, 15:54
Assumption-only minis currently in production. I'm not disagreeing at out of production minis might be cost prohibitive.

If there is a 3rd party service doing the work then there's no reason to attempt to interfere with them. Even with a smaller revenue stream, its still a revenue stream that the Company would not receive. There's just no reason not to do that that works on a business case basis.

Wyatt
14-02-2008, 16:22
I know this is only minor, but something I don't get is they stopped selling 60mm bases, don't sell them to indies, and they're shutting down the bits retailers (who only ever have 1 or 2 of them in stock anyway). What confuses me about this, is they were a rip off anyway, as I was planning on paying £4.50 plus postage for six bases anyway. And now I have shock troops in heavy weapon teams, with no bases. (And since there's one or two of them already with 60mm bases, putting them on smaller ones isn't really an option). So... GW just lost £4.50 + postage of my money for something that's easy to cast, they make tons of, and it's money they wouldn't be losing anyway. Grr. [/dunrantin]

jfrazell
14-02-2008, 17:24
OTT, but cheap plasticard makes a fine 60mm base as well, if you can't find any.

General Veers
14-02-2008, 18:49
Regarding 60mm round bases, the following options aren't exactly the same as GWs but they might meet the need if the plasticard doesn't:

Disclaimer, I've not purchased from any of the below except Litko. I thought this was a good exercise as I was going to need 60mm rounds in the future for an IG (but all non-GW miniatures) project anyway.

Litko Aerosystems (Wood and Metal)
http://www.litkoaero.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LAI&Product_Code=GMB245-10

Gale Force 9 Magnetic:
http://www.gf9.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=38&products_id=186

Gale Force 9 Econo (wood)
http://www.gf9.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=64&products_id=369

J&H Bases and Terrain (Plaster?)
http://home.earthlink.net/~hlh90/jhbt/round60.htm

FRP Games (These look to be pre-painted, top of the line quality, $$$)
http://frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_list&c=342

The above is all I could find in a few minutes. I shouldn't be suprised by how "rare" plastic 60mm round bases are but I guess I am. But worse, is try to find square 20mm x 20mm bases with a "horizontal" slot. Not diagonal, horizontal. ;)

Cirrus the Blue
14-02-2008, 21:53
So, I have at least some reason why GW decided to can the bitz service in such a way and converting it to full figures. A redshirt told me the whole thing about them needing to cast full figures if they run out of a part that's requested instead of only the part, and obviously, that'd get rather expensive to keep casting whole figures such as - say - the Nurgle Champion on Horseback for his measley little shield and sword that goes on his back. That's a lot of extra leftover pieces.

Doesn't mean I'm still not upset by their decision, but this at least sheds a little more light onto the subject if anything. *shrug*

- Cirrus

Gazak Blacktoof
15-02-2008, 01:51
"Leftovers" can be melted back down and re-cast as something else.

Vic
15-02-2008, 10:53
@ Gazak:

True if metal, not so much if its plastic (and GW is moving to all plastic).

Look , I think its a good move by GW to make race specific bitz packs, but to deny a third party vendor (or at least make it awkward) from supplying a service GW no longer wants to be burdened by to me bespeaks lunacy.

sheck2
15-02-2008, 13:38
I think its a good move by GW to make race specific bitz packs, but to deny a third party vendor (or at least make it awkward) from supplying a service GW no longer wants to be burdened by to me bespeaks lunacy.

@Vic...

I agree - I think moving away from the bitz business is good for GW. Stopping a third party from providing that service (and incurring the associated costs) is bad.

However - I think we have gotten away from the real topic. GW is not stopping Warstore from supplying bitz, just stopping them from offering a shopping cart.

I prefer an intenet shopping cart, but GW policy (and I have no criticism of it - it's their call) is that ONLY its direct service should have an internet shopping cart. Everyone else must phone, fax, or email...

I do not see the logic of only direct having it...as it simply teaches customers to use 3rd party retailers in a different manner and builds a relationship with them i.e. the whole point of an internet shopping cart is to AVOID human contact and ease of ordering. That is not worth a 20% surcharge by going direct...and beside they advertise how wonderful direct services is (I like 'em and I do think they have great CS) to deal with.

It's dumb, IMO, as the messaging is contradictory...call direct services because we are wonderful and provide great customer service - a good reason to pay a premium price...BUT we are the only ones to offer an internet shopping cart which by definition should be no human contact ? ? ? ?

If I have to deal with a person and my choice is pay less or more...which do you think I am going to choose?

? ? ?

Emperor's Grace
15-02-2008, 15:57
Agreed. When I did call the trolls in the past, I usually ended up buying more than what I'd called for as they offered ideas and deals based on what we chatted about.

Of course, that was 10 yrs ago, when there were deals to be had direct from GW.

(Though I do like the look of the new VC BF for a deal price)

selfconstrukt
15-02-2008, 21:40
So, I have at least some reason why GW decided to can the bitz service in such a way and converting it to full figures. A redshirt told me the whole thing about them needing to cast full figures if they run out of a part that's requested instead of only the part, and obviously, that'd get rather expensive to keep casting whole figures such as - say - the Nurgle Champion on Horseback for his measley little shield and sword that goes on his back. That's a lot of extra leftover pieces.

Doesn't mean I'm still not upset by their decision, but this at least sheds a little more light onto the subject if anything. *shrug*

- Cirrus

The redshirt you spoke to has no real idea of what casting is like at GW.

Each component for a model has its own mould and code.

Cirrus the Blue
15-02-2008, 22:35
The redshirt you spoke to has no real idea of what casting is like at GW.

Each component for a model has its own mould and code.

If someone needed the scythe/shield sprue from the champion, they would just pull the mould for that (if the bins were empty) and cast up that piece.

Also, when they pull moulds for casting, they cast up enough to supply metal for several months of sales, not just to fill that one guys order. So any extra bits that get cast are put into bins for other orders.

They don't cast up 20+ parts (or however many are on a mould) just for one customers order, then melt down the remaining pieces.

This is honestly what I thought, too! It certainly makes more sense, doesn't it? I'd imagine the staff are all trained to say this sort of thing to people who put up a fuss, though.

- Cirrus

yabbadabba
16-02-2008, 18:24
The redshirt you spoke to has no real idea of what casting is like at GW.

Each component for a model has its own mould and code.

If someone needed the scythe/shield sprue from the champion, they would just pull the mould for that (if the bins were empty) and cast up that piece.

Also, when they pull moulds for casting, they cast up enough to supply metal for several months of sales, not just to fill that one guys order. So any extra bits that get cast are put into bins for other orders.

They don't cast up 20+ parts (or however many are on a mould) just for one customers order, then melt down the remaining pieces.

And that's one of the reasons why, I think, they are pulling bits. Its too expensive to run a business like that. If GW could make a bit for a customer for a reasonable price and leave it at that, it would make more sense.

But having to cast up a years+ worth of supply just to fulfill one customer's needs is nonsense, unless of course you are a modeller and desperately want that part :D

Yehoshua
23-02-2008, 14:20
Why didn't they just charge a steeper surcharge for the freaking bits?

This decision made no sense. There are people out there with disposable income, who would be perfectly happy to pay more for the same bits, if that was the only option.

Cirrus the Blue
23-02-2008, 14:38
I'm sure they felt it was much easier to drive a spiked baseball bat up our backsides instead than make an effort to 1. find the catalogue, 2. look up all the current prices, 3. go open up the computer program to change the current prices, 4. start using their heads on what the new prices should be, 5. start actually CHANGING the prices, 6. print them out on the website, 7. print them off in a new catalogue, 8. DISTRIBUTE the new catalogue, even... ugh!! What a nightmare, eh? *rolls eyes* "Hey, guys! This is far too much work, so why not just sell everything in blisters instead now, but make it seem as though we're still selling individual 'bitz' packages? The customers can't possibly be THAT smart to figure out our motives. And if they are, then just plug out more Space Marines to shut 'em up." "Hey, that sounds like a GREAT idea!!!! Fantastic work, buddy! I'm giving you a promotion! Muhahaha... MUUUhahahaa.... MUAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAaaaaa......" *lightning crashes several times in the background as the evil music cresendos*

There. I feel at least a little bit better now. :rolleyes:

- Cirrus

antin3
23-02-2008, 23:43
I've been in the hobby for 15 years now. In that time I have collected just about every army for both systems. In all of those armies, even in the beginning I have converted, a lot. In fact whenever I start a new army I always begin with my general or lord. I look at existing models and then figure out how I can convert it to be "mine".
I realize that this is a business decision, I realize inventory costs, I deal with this everyday in my line of work. I have nearly always supported GW in their decisions, it's their company, they want to make money. I will also wait for a bit to see what these "bits packs" are all about before I make any radical decisions but...
GW is definately hurting the hobby as it is now, as has been stated before one of the basic tenants of the hobby was converting. I mean they pushed the idea at every chance for years. Golden Demon, counts as, bits section in the back of WD, from concept to reality articles in WD, you name it. It was an established a part of the hobby as painting, now it's gone.
I think it is a mistake, I agree with others I do not know the costs incurred to warehouse bits and I have no idea about the money GW is losing but with the success of it's video games in recent years I would think that is creating some type of revenue.
I think GW is losing it's community, I hear they want to tap into young gamers well ok then, if they think that parents, many , many parents are going to shell out that kind of money then so be it. My thought is this has always been a niche market but once you have someone hooked they are hooked. These are the converters the ones that spend the most money. Those that have stuck by the hobby for years and now have the disposable income to shell it out and create disticitive armies, but again I don't see what GW sees so maybe I am wrong. But with what they charge for the bits and plus the loan shark postage rates I can't see how they are not making a profit off of mail order. I know one thing whether they force BWbits to remove the shopping cart or not I will continue to buy from Neal. Anyway as I said 15 years and counting, but if the bits continue like this then I am seriously going to look at other game companies or other hobbies. That's probably not a big deal to GW to lose one veteran gamer anyway.

Templar Ben
24-02-2008, 01:30
And that's one of the reasons why, I think, they are pulling bits. Its too expensive to run a business like that. If GW could make a bit for a customer for a reasonable price and leave it at that, it would make more sense.

But having to cast up a years+ worth of supply just to fulfill one customer's needs is nonsense, unless of course you are a modeller and desperately want that part :D

I am sure Stella can explain exactly what the process is but I read the above as, if they don't have part 12345 they see what else they need such as part 12543 and 13542 and go ahead and set up the machine for all of those. They cast those few parts but since the machine is set up they go ahead and cast enough to last for about 6 months or so. The cast bits take up very little space and there is no spoilage issue.

Then again I have never cast for GW so I don't know how they do it. I have just seen EOQ models and that is what it sounds like was described. I presume it is linked with a newsboy model for the actual inventory levels.

Latro_
27-02-2008, 22:43
I've been in the hobby for 15 years now. In that time I have collected just about every army for both systems. In all of those armies, even in the beginning I have converted, a lot. In fact whenever I start a new army I always begin with my general or lord. I look at existing models and then figure out how I can convert it to be "mine".
I realize that this is a business decision, I realize inventory costs, I deal with this everyday in my line of work. I have nearly always supported GW in their decisions, it's their company, they want to make money. I will also wait for a bit to see what these "bits packs" are all about before I make any radical decisions but...
GW is definately hurting the hobby as it is now, as has been stated before one of the basic tenants of the hobby was converting. I mean they pushed the idea at every chance for years. Golden Demon, counts as, bits section in the back of WD, from concept to reality articles in WD, you name it. It was an established a part of the hobby as painting, now it's gone.
I think it is a mistake, I agree with others I do not know the costs incurred to warehouse bits and I have no idea about the money GW is losing but with the success of it's video games in recent years I would think that is creating some type of revenue.
I think GW is losing it's community, I hear they want to tap into young gamers well ok then, if they think that parents, many , many parents are going to shell out that kind of money then so be it. My thought is this has always been a niche market but once you have someone hooked they are hooked. These are the converters the ones that spend the most money. Those that have stuck by the hobby for years and now have the disposable income to shell it out and create disticitive armies, but again I don't see what GW sees so maybe I am wrong. But with what they charge for the bits and plus the loan shark postage rates I can't see how they are not making a profit off of mail order. I know one thing whether they force BWbits to remove the shopping cart or not I will continue to buy from Neal. Anyway as I said 15 years and counting, but if the bits continue like this then I am seriously going to look at other game companies or other hobbies. That's probably not a big deal to GW to lose one veteran gamer anyway.

Just only realised they've stopped selling bitz myself. I mirror your view 110%.

Its like they'v stopped selling paint. Scanning models for bitz and thinking up how too apply them to a specific hero or unit is a fundamental tennant of this hobby.

lol remember this page on the GW site: GW Online : Convershun Klinic (http://uk.games-workshop.com/convershunklinic/)

i'v just emailed them saying it should be taken down as their company does not support converting models anymore.

These bitz packs are bound to be a monumental failure.
Wait models will be coming all in one bit soon, then... pre painted. oh wait... gijoe. ugh.

On the bitz pack front, you'd think they'd of put work into them a year or so ago for a smoother transition. Not just stop selling ANY bitz and tell everyone to wait.

It's like HP saying, 'Ah we is gonna stop selling ink for our printers while we make multile colour cartridge packs, the only way you can get any ink is if you buy a new printer each time, sorry'

Then you have to buy a magenta, yellow blue and black pack everytime you want a black cartridge.

DAMN them alls to hell.

BrainFireBob
28-02-2008, 06:26
Actually, I think they're being more clever short-term than people realize.

While I disagree with conspiracy theories regarding the rules, I don't think they fail to plan some of their sales moves.

For instance, announce bitz service will die in six months. Chart the most popular sales. Spike prices based on demand, and people will pay. This results in an influx of cash. Then, using data gathered on the "most popular" bitz packs, begin selling lots of the items you have identified there's regular demand for.

The terminator honors shoulderpads made me think of that. I wouldn't be surprised if we see, say, six sonic blasters in a bitz pack for $20 soon. Mind, the individual ones, just before mail order died, became what, like $16/apiece?

Ravenous
29-02-2008, 05:36
lol remember this page on the GW site: GW Online : Convershun Klinic (http://uk.games-workshop.com/convershunklinic/)

i'v just emailed them saying it should be taken down as their company does not support converting models anymore.



Oh they still support converting, they just want you to buy an entire box of models for 1 part. ;)

Cirrus the Blue
29-02-2008, 15:16
A lot of the stuff in their 'new' catalogue is missing altogether, though... At least when I skimmed throguh it. Mostly stuff like the retro IG and neat stuff like that from the classic and collectors ranges. Seems to me it's all current junk now which kinda makes me sad. :( My point, even if we're supposed to be happy with buying complete kits for one bit, many of those complete kits are now gone! :wtf: At least from what I saw anyway... Perhaps I'm mistaken?

On different levels, I agree wholeheartedly with both Ravenous and Latro. :p

- Cirrus

blongbling
29-02-2008, 15:46
I am sure Stella can explain exactly what the process is but I read the above as, if they don't have part 12345 they see what else they need such as part 12543 and 13542 and go ahead and set up the machine for all of those. They cast those few parts but since the machine is set up they go ahead and cast enough to last for about 6 months or so. The cast bits take up very little space and there is no spoilage issue.

Then again I have never cast for GW so I don't know how they do it. I have just seen EOQ models and that is what it sounds like was described. I presume it is linked with a newsboy model for the actual inventory levels.

although an individual cast will produce maybe 10-12 cavities when you start to look at the 12k odd moulds they have then the space starts to become quite big................

selfconstrukt
29-02-2008, 19:20
although an individual cast will produce maybe 10-12 cavities when you start to look at the 12k odd moulds they have then the space starts to become quite big................

Mostly, the bits issue was caused by what the GW managers called "their own personal hobby store". GW employees were making decisions about what to sell because they thought it would be cool, not what they think the customer would want.

The Inquisitor
06-03-2008, 08:56
Have to say I agree. I didn't buy that many bitz anyway, but bitz packs would be o.k.... if they released them. Here's my thoughts:

1. why get rid of everything all together, without having a transitional plan of any sort, from the customers perspective? That's stupid, plain and simple. It makes me think that as a company, they are inept. Any other company who eliminated an essential part of their business sturcture, would suffer. Why get rid of the sprues? Why not have bitz packs ready to go, things you KNOW sell. They don't have the ability to track stuff like this? If you think that, you need to get real.

2. If you are going to do something, don't do it half assed. I mean, we're already a month or two into this, and every time I check, I think "what the ****? It the same couple of stupid packs!" I mean, really. Its not like they are sculpting anything new, or really doing anything but repackaging what they already have.

And where are the sprues?!?!? C'mon!

Again, it makes me think they are inept and wonder why I even support their ventures into the hobby of miniature wargaming (yep, thats right. They are NOT the hobby, but a company who makes hobby products. Don't think they get that.)

yabbadabba
06-03-2008, 09:26
Have to say I agree. I didn't buy that many bitz anyway, but bitz packs would be o.k.... if they released them. Here's my thoughts:

1. why get rid of everything all together, without having a transitional plan of any sort, from the customers perspective? That's stupid, plain and simple. It makes me think that as a company, they are inept. Any other company who eliminated an essential part of their business sturcture, would suffer. Why get rid of the sprues? Why not have bitz packs ready to go, things you KNOW sell. They don't have the ability to track stuff like this? If you think that, you need to get real.

2. If you are going to do something, don't do it half assed. I mean, we're already a month or two into this, and every time I check, I think "what the ****? It the same couple of stupid packs!" I mean, really. Its not like they are sculpting anything new, or really doing anything but repackaging what they already have.

And where are the sprues?!?!? C'mon!

OK, so that was from a personal perspective I assume, because without seeing the aims and objectives from their business plan you can hardly be in a position to appraise. For a start if bits were such an "essential part of their business sturcture" then why are they radically overhauling them?
I would say that bits are an important, but not essential, part of a lot of peoples' hobby - especially with the new approach to plastic sprues. They might be a small, high cost, low turnover part of a business which is moving away from the need to provide that service, and is looking at ways of cutting costs.

And did you ever think that what they have put up might be everything for now? If you have been around GW long enough then you know they never give you all you want straight away.



Again, it makes me think they are inept and wonder why I even support their ventures into the hobby of miniature wargaming (yep, thats right. They are NOT the hobby, but a company who makes hobby products. Don't think they get that.)

These quotes always make me smile. GW calls what it does "the Hobby" as a marketing ploy for people who have never seen or been interested in toy soldiers. It aids retention as it narrows people's fields of vision in terms of buying. That you react to such a simple ploy says to me that you too have fallen for the marketing, because it has caused a reaction. Considering the vast majority of the GW staff who coined and expanded that phrase are reknwoned on the wargames circuit for their other ventures, says to me that they view it as a tagline and certainly not an inefficient and poor attempt at closing out wargamers from the wargames market.

However if you want to back up your statement what you need to do is come up with a rough, but reasonable, sales vs cost vs profit estimates so we can all judge whether GW is being inept or whether it is a sensible, but tragic, business strategy.

samael
06-03-2008, 09:49
Just one little thing, making units like this, is from now on out of the question.

Buying a complete Galrauch, some scyllas, a couple of old spawns and some great unclean ones for every model goes just a tiny bit too far even for me.

Such a shame, I was looking forward to expanding the army when the book comes out

The Inquisitor
29-03-2008, 19:30
OK, so that was from a personal perspective I assume, because without seeing the aims and objectives from their business plan you can hardly be in a position to appraise. For a start if bits were such an "essential part of their business sturcture" then why are they radically overhauling them?
I would say that bits are an important, but not essential, part of a lot of peoples' hobby - especially with the new approach to plastic sprues. They might be a small, high cost, low turnover part of a business which is moving away from the need to provide that service, and is looking at ways of cutting costs.

I s'pose that any of us, without access to what ppl are thinking in the boardrooms are giving a personal perspective. You should have realized with such terms in plain english as "my thoughts" would indicate that I was of course sharing a personal perspective.

But, I think, without too much of a stretch of the imagination that GW overall has put a lot of their "stock" into modeling and coverting their line of models.

That is what I am discussing here; This is supported by their past history and what they have placed emphasis in through direct advertising, support materials (i.e. WD, guides, manuals, codecies, online sources- read Black gobbo articles) and promotional programs and direct only models.

So, I suppose if you are 'opining' that it is not been promoted as an essential part of their hobby, I'd say that you are the one that needs to provide some collateral support for your countervalent point of view.

BTW- i was not saying that it was economically sound to continue the bitz as they were, but that it was part of what they have promoted as a unique part of their services. With the changes in how they are providing "bitz" (i.e. putting more in boxes, such as all weapon options, or more on sprues), the are certainly changing how bitz are obtained and distributed.

C'mon. Its been months now. Do it or don't.


And did you ever think that what they have put up might be everything for now? If you have been around GW long enough then you know they never give you all you want straight away.

Huh? Obviously you haven't checkout out the bitz site maybe. They released a paucity of bitz packs, then nothing. Do it or don't. Sorry if you don't like my opinion, but I still have it. It's half assed.


These quotes always make me smile. GW calls what it does "the Hobby" as a marketing ploy for people who have never seen or been interested in toy soldiers. It aids retention as it narrows people's fields of vision in terms of buying. That you react to such a simple ploy says to me that you too have fallen for the marketing, because it has caused a reaction. Considering the vast majority of the GW staff who coined and expanded that phrase are reknwoned on the wargames circuit for their other ventures, says to me that they view it as a tagline and certainly not an inefficient and poor attempt at closing out wargamers from the wargames market.

However if you want to back up your statement what you need to do is come up with a rough, but reasonable, sales vs cost vs profit estimates so we can all judge whether GW is being inept or whether it is a sensible, but tragic, business strategy.

I don't know if your snarky, condescending comments are meant to make yourself feel better about yourself being a jackass or simply an attempt to make you feel that you are more intelligent that you are coming across. If you think I'm making some sort of 'insider comment' on the business, it was pretty obvious that I wasn't. I was sharing 'my thoughts', which apparently caused you to "react" and can't obviously co-exist (at least in your mind) without some sort of "reasonable sales v. cost estimate' so we can all judge.

Mr. master-debator, I could state the same- show me the money. Show me your data that says this was a good move. Show me something more than "your opinion" regarding past employees of GW who are "reknwoned" [sic] for their other ventures which proves your point that GW hasn't for years tried to enforce the viewpoint that their tools, techniques and methods were the only way to do 'their hobby.' Please, elucidate us.

Because my personal experiences and interactions with the company, working in the trechnes and watching how they do business from the store side, and the experiences of ppl I know/actually own and run LHS (working GW as a company for YEARS) paint a completely different picture.

I'd love to see your data. For real. If you can't provide anything substantial (which I'm wagering that you can't), perhaps you should acknowledge your own vain attempt at presenting your own OPINIONS as suggested insider understanding at GWs inner workings, and accept they are no more valid that my own (or anyone elses for that matter.)

Blutrache
30-03-2008, 10:36
Two small things that made me shake my head recently:

Bitz packs. The metal coffin shields bitz pack costs £8 for 8! Thats 1 quid per metal shield!!! Somehow, I really can't even imagine how these would be flying off the shelves...

BOxed furies: http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99119915022&orignav=10

£3 each for the tired old furies? Sheesh. The new plastic daemons are a bargain though!

/Cheers