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celdiruen
03-02-2008, 19:29
It seems that in many of the Bretonnian lists I see out there, less than half of them even include a damsel.

That gives you absolutely no protection from magic, no dispel scrolls, and no chance to retaliate in the magic phase.

Why do Bretonnian players do this? Is it because in 1000 points they'll have to take 3 heroes or have the damsel be the general (does she have higher LD?), or is it because you believe that nothing will stop you from getting your charge/flank off and not many armies can take lores that have knight-killing spells, and plus then they have to roll for them?
Is it because they don't like the lores available?

Can all of you shed some light on this for me? I would really like to understand why this is.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-02-2008, 19:30
Well, it's probably because they don't need it.

2+ save and an in inexplicable Ward Save means most spells are bobbins against you anyways,

Bretonnian Lord
03-02-2008, 19:37
Well in 1000 points games...

Unless the Damsel is the general, the Bretonnians will have 3 characters, taking up nearly half of the army.

Plus, in most 1000 pt games the enemy won't have a strong magic phase (unless he goes magic heavy in which case you're screwed). Usually in 1000 pt games you'll find yourself up against one level two mage, which won't do much by itself.

celdiruen
03-02-2008, 19:42
What about larger games? I don't see many people taking a prophetess or anything either... Do most Bretonnian players skip magic to focus more on the rest of their army?

Chaos Mortal
03-02-2008, 20:40
to be honest its because there is no point really as you would expect to be in cb by turn 2 and therefore you will be missing out on a paladin and spending extra points on a model which dosent in essnece do much other than perhaps scroll caddy in games where you expect 12+ PD to be used, and the fact that they have access to in my opinion the poorest lores and any of there army that would be hurt by maguc generally has a 2+ save and a ward save (not even a chance of them not having it in my opinion, as i certainly always take it)

Thanks, Chaos Mortal

theunwantedbeing
03-02-2008, 20:53
At 1k you dont see many mages anyway, simply as a single scroll caddy will usually totally shut down your magic phase unless you spend a good 50+% of your points on magic users...and then you arent really left with enough to get an army.

Damsels are hardly needed at 2k either, when you have 50 knights all with 2+ saves and 6+/5+ ward saves that move 16" per turn and hit like a runaway train you tend not to need magic.

People need to get over this fear of magic, and this stupid belief that a scroll caddy or 2 will actually help you.

Bretonnian Lord
03-02-2008, 21:01
The most deadly spells for use against Bretonnians are the ones that don't do direct damage. ;)

I always take at least a Damsel or two in 2,000 pt games for magic defense. Bretonnians can't really mount a proper magical offense anymore since 7th edition made Sacrament of the Lady completely unusable. However don't let this fool you- my friend made the mistake of thinking my Damsel was an easy target and the next turn his High Elf Prince was killed by a large barrage of stones (Master of Stone, Lore of Life) :D

Also the Fey Enchantress is really good, with her a Bretonnian army can mount a formidable magic phase.

celdiruen
03-02-2008, 21:32
At 1k you dont see many mages anyway, simply as a single scroll caddy will usually totally shut down your magic phase unless you spend a good 50+% of your points on magic users...and then you arent really left with enough to get an army.

Damsels are hardly needed at 2k either, when you have 50 knights all with 2+ saves and 6+/5+ ward saves that move 16" per turn and hit like a runaway train you tend not to need magic.

People need to get over this fear of magic, and this stupid belief that a scroll caddy or 2 will actually help you.


What if I don't want to go RAF or Knights only but a mixed force with a good chunk of knights but which are complemented by peasants? IMO the Lore of Life is great, and Beasts has some useful spells also. I guess it comes down to preferance, what kind of army you have, and the points you are playing at.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
03-02-2008, 21:43
Bret magic stinks. The only real reason people take any magic defense is for the lore of metal. Even then there is only the one spell that you really have to be worried about. Lore of heavens is pretty good for the prophetess i suppose. But brets do not have any good items to up her casting. Any other army with a magic lord will dispel the junk out of her. I would say that magic is brettonias biggest weakness. Their troops have the armour save the ward save and lance formation.... if they had good magic that would be even more wrong..

theunwantedbeing
03-02-2008, 21:49
I wasnt sugguesting you go RAF at all....thats is by no means the only way to win with bretonians without having any magic....

celdiruen
03-02-2008, 22:37
I wasn't saying that it is the only way to win with Bretonnia w/o magic. I was saying that I do not want to go RAF or extremely knight heavy.

theunwantedbeing
03-02-2008, 22:40
You can alwyas go very peasant heavy, and take knights on foot to go in the big peasant blocks....thats always a fun army.

celdiruen
03-02-2008, 22:45
Yeah I'm thinking of something along those lines. Probably about 50/50 mix of knights (foot and horse) to peasants, but likely leaning a little on the peasant side.

Lucky24/7
04-02-2008, 08:45
tournament wise knight heavy is seen as the only way to go. But fluff wise it dose seem a reasonable idea.

Jack of Blades
04-02-2008, 10:31
To be honest, magic isn't that dangerous. First it has to successfully go off, without miscast too, and then it has to be on a unit that's worth targeting, and then you'll have to roll decently for the amount of D6 hits, and then you'll have to roll to wound decently, and then you'll have to fail eventual armour/ward saves your troops might have.

I mean seriously, magic is overrated.

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-02-2008, 11:07
To be honest, magic isn't that dangerous. First it has to successfully go off, without miscast too, and then it has to be on a unit that's worth targeting, and then you'll have to roll decently for the amount of D6 hits, and then you'll have to roll to wound decently, and then you'll have to fail eventual armour/ward saves your troops might have.


All that is assuming that I'm casting magic missiles. There is a lot of other magic spells out there, and they are often the most dangerous ones.

The Slaanesh Lore is a perfect example of that, but also armies like Tomb Kings, Ogres, Vampire Counts have a large number of supporting spells that really enhances there armies, yet does nothing directly to the knights.

Chaos Mortal
04-02-2008, 11:26
direct damage spells are imho the least damaging to your army as a whole and by what you say you are suggesting that you would rather dispell a fireball on your knights than tiltilating illusions (the slanneshhi spell that Gorbad is talking about) and trust me movement spells are by far the most game altering and in my chaos undivided list i field my sorcerers as slanneshhi unless i feel lucky and want to try for pestilence in the nurgle lore.

Thanks, Chaos Mortal

Llew
04-02-2008, 12:15
My opinion on why magic isn't as common for Brets:

Damsels are more limited for Bretonnians. You get choices of schools that people don't often take in Empire armies (so you have to assume they're less effective overall) and most of the abilities you can get from them would be kinda useful, but not something to build your strategy around and you can't rely on getting the ones you want. Getting a powerful enough damsel to increase your chances of getting what you want costs too many knights.

As a Bretonnian, damsels are really only used for defense, and they're overpriced as scroll caddies. Your best bet is to just get the enemy mage in a fight or kill units near the mage quickly on your way to getting him in a fight (or panicking). Try to survive a couple rounds of magic and start whacking away.

You can get another rank bonus for the price of a damsel...and that rank bonus will increase your chance of winning the battle more than the damsel would. Everything that goes for damsels goes for Prophetesses, just a litte moreso.

Jack of Blades
04-02-2008, 12:43
Certainly, but everything is counterable. If you'd try to make your list be able to handle everything, you'd end up with a very gimped list that couldn't do things well enough. Btw, Ogres will laugh at Scroll Caddies.

I'm not saying magic defence is useless, I'm saying it's overrated. Unless you stack up on it, you won't really have enough - I think many Slaanesh players can agree to that. A Daemon Prince, Greater Daemon and a pair of Sorcerers or a Lord and 3 Sorcerers are going to make short work of a scroll caddy.

So before you spend those 120 points on a Damsel, why not take more knights instead?

Mouchliazo
04-02-2008, 12:52
I really think that some magic defense is useful even for Brettonians. For example, an even moderately magic heavy Necromantic army can present some difficulties for Brets, raising zombies at odd angles to put them off their tracks.

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-02-2008, 12:58
Because the Damsel will do something those extra 5 knights won't?

A scroll caddie will not shut down an enemy magic phase, but then, you need a huge amount of magic defence to do that. What it will do is let you give you a chance at dispelling those few critical spells that come up during a game. Being able to scroll that Illusion spell that will set up your generals unit for a nasty flank charge, or that Vanhels that send a Grave Guard unit into the side of a lance and letting them roll up your line can be the difference between winning and losing the game.

It's all about priority, and some spells are a lot more important than others, and the caddie will at least give you the option of doing something about the really important ones.

Lexy
04-02-2008, 13:24
Because the Damsel will do something those extra 5 knights won't?
Yes, but we're not going into that now :eek::D

The scroll caddy is not better then a rank except, that she can stop the first turn of magic alltogether or good enough so you still have enough knights left to get into combat.
You can have your big unit knights but if a slaanesh sorcerer says you have to go somewhere you don't want to go or a butcher gives you 2d6S2 hits without armour saves you'd wish you'd have a lady with some paper with you.

Malorian
04-02-2008, 14:48
I used to play with no magic, as I figured that the knights I lost to magic wasn't worth the points spent to protect them.

Now I play a magic heavy bret list to make me more dangerous in more phases ; )

MarcoPollo
04-02-2008, 16:52
I don't use a robust magic phase for three reasons:

1) I don't like the way that lore of life, and beasts (and to a lesser extent heavens) works with damsels/prophetess in the army. There are just too many quirks to make investing in it profitable.

2) I like ld 9 way more than ld 8.

3) I don't have the points to spend on a robust phase. Between, BSB and generals plus their rides, there just isn't enough to go around.

So magic defense it is. And that is a waste really. I hate plain scroll caddies. So it is a bit depressing to have to do this.

Malorian
04-02-2008, 18:10
3) I don't have the points to spend on a robust phase. Between, BSB and generals plus their rides, there just isn't enough to go around.

You'd actually be surprised how easy it is to fit in once you take other the other pricy units.

I was making a list just for kicks when I found this out. I started with a prophetess and 3 damsels and then added the needed ASB paladin. The prophetess acts as the general and I don't give the ASB paladin anything other than the horse.

From here I added a full unit of 9 KE with FC and the erranty banner, 3 units of 8 KoTR with full command, 5 peg knights, and 21 skirmishing archers. Then there is even a few points left over for upgrades and you have a magic heavy bret list with 4 lances (plus peg knights) and a decent amount of shooting.

What started as a list I was putting together for kicks turned into my standard list : )

MarcoPollo
04-02-2008, 21:35
You'd actually be surprised how easy it is to fit in once you take other the other pricy units.

I was making a list just for kicks when I found this out. I started with a prophetess and 3 damsels and then added the needed ASB paladin. The prophetess acts as the general and I don't give the ASB paladin anything other than the horse.

From here I added a full unit of 9 KE with FC and the erranty banner, 3 units of 8 KoTR with full command, 5 peg knights, and 21 skirmishing archers. Then there is even a few points left over for upgrades and you have a magic heavy bret list with 4 lances (plus peg knights) and a decent amount of shooting.

What started as a list I was putting together for kicks turned into my standard list : )

What do you use for your lores. If you go beasts, then the prophetess/damsels can only use anger when she's on foot. If you go life, the damsels have to be careful about placement inside the knight units as there are some spell that require line of sight (master of stone).

And what about psychology? Are you able to hanle ld 8 ok?

I'm not saying that magic is bad or not worth it in general. But for me and my tastes, I don't like the drawbacks of magic compared to their gains.

Malorian
04-02-2008, 21:53
The prophetess uses Heavens and joins the archers along with one damsel that has beasts. From there I hope to get spells like the spear or the wolf hunts, but if not the bears anger helps protect the unit if something gets through.

The other damsels have life and join knight units to give them magic resistance and use magic. My opponents usually have their warmachines and archers on hills so I can see them anyway, and if not she can pop out for a spell or go to the front rank (not really that risky when you are going to crush whatever you charge).