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Shadow Weaver
04-02-2008, 11:26
Just started collecting a Chaos fantasy army purely because I love the Chaos lord on the disc of Tzeentch. Apart from the introductory game at GW I have never played, but am enjoying the painting and want an army that is enjoyable not invulnerable, and a good base from where to grow. I know that some feel that the Tzeentch magic heavy armies are cheese but as I said earlier my list was chosen for me by the figure.

So far I have

the lord on the disk

lord on foot to go with the warriors

6 chaos hounds

1 x 12 chaos warriors shield & extra hand wpn + full command

1 x 5 chaos knights with musician

2 x 24 chaos Marauders 2 hand wpns + full command

1 x Chariot

I want to take 2 squads of Beastmen + full command with hero's marked by Tzeentch so that they can skirmish down the flanks shooting magic at other skirmishers, light cavalry, eagles etc then with my wonderfully brilliant tactics ;) clean up the flanks and swing round for flank charges etc.

Now my questions are this :-
what is the best size unit for this, between gors and ungors?

would I be better with shamans?

skank
04-02-2008, 15:06
Looks like a couple of herds might do you good, the army is a bit slow otherwise. A couple of herds 17 or 21 strong (inc char) would suit the bill, 7 or 8 gors to fight up front and the rest ungors.

With a wargor in a herd will fight well but should aim for soft flank targets, watch out for non-to impressive leadership also.
Remember herds can get flank bonuses (and sometimes ranks) but as skirmishers cannot break ranks if thats what you are hopeing.

P.s. you can only have 1 lord in standard size games 2000pts, get an exualted champ.
A shaman whould be a good idea with beast lore or whatever but if you do that consider putting both character together in 1 herd.

NakedBarbarian
04-02-2008, 22:55
I think you should probably look into BoC rules before you make any purchases. Beast herds have raiders and ambush rule. Only half of your ambushing untis can be set in ambush, so if you take 2 beast herds, thats one unit in ambush, plus you have to have a beast character to blow the bray horn. No bray horn = no ambush units. From my experience the only way to get themost out of ambushing beastherds is to take an all BoC army. I much prefer the beasts special and rare units - i take mortal heroes and core units and chuck in dragon ogres and a shaggoth...

Shadow Weaver
05-02-2008, 09:45
Skank:
Yep sorry I was thinking of the figures themselves, so yes I will take the 2nd figure as an exaulted champion.

Sorry what do you mean that skirmishers can not break ranks?
They are allowed a 2 rank CR+command I hoped that against most flanking units the combination of magic and combat would allow them to hold their own. Then victoriusly (I hope) swing around onto the flanks/war machines. Am I suffering from 40k stat blindness?

But reading everyones lists it seems that practically everyones armies go down the flanks.

NakedBarbarian:
As I'm not taking a Beast General I thought that I was not allowed to ambush at all.

TheDarkDaff
05-02-2008, 11:12
Welcome to the Dark Side. If you can swing it there was a great Limited Edition Tzeetch Lord on Disc released originally in Germany that you may be able to get hol of that is just plain awesome.

But onto your list. You have a few bad choices straight away. I am assuming you have given your warriors & Knights the Mark of Tzeetch. Also additional Hand weapons are a bad choice on Warriors as Great Weapons are Cheaper and more effective. Marauders are best setup in 1 of 2 ways, Flankers or Combat Res generators. Flankers should be about 12 strong with flails and no command, they support other charges. Combat Res Marauders are built to last with about 25 models, Light Armour & shield and a full command group, they don't actually need to kill anything. I would personally get more Warhounds (i use at least 24 in 1000 point in 4 units of 6 dogs) as they are the best screen you have for your expensive units (read Knights), plus at only 36 points for each unit you don't really care if they die. I assume the Chariot is a Mortal Tzeetch one but you have to remember the golden rule of chariots, They work best in pairs. Beastmen Units are nice but basically what you get in the box is the exact opposite of the mix you want. Always buy a Foe-render for them and don't bother with Ungor shields as it works out cheaper to just buy more Ungors.

There are a few more Units that are worth considering. Marauder Horsemen are a great buy. Take a Unit of 6 with Flails and a Musician and you have a great flanker (fast, manouvrable, break ranks and hit hard on the charge too). Furies are probably one of the best Warmachine hunters in the game, 6 is usually enough for the job. Minotaurs with Great Weapons are a great hammer unit as are Dragon Ogres. I think that is a nice start and if you want me to give anymore info (or point you to more knowledgable people i know) just send me a PM.

Good Luck

blueon462
05-02-2008, 11:16
Skank:
Yep sorry I was thinking of the figures themselves, so yes I will take the 2nd figure as an exaulted champion.

Sorry what do you mean that skirmishers can not break ranks?
They are allowed a 2 rank CR+command I hoped that against most flanking units the combination of magic and combat would allow them to hold their own. Then victoriusly (I hope) swing around onto the flanks/war machines. Am I suffering from 40k stat blindness?

But reading everyones lists it seems that practically everyones armies go down the flanks.

NakedBarbarian:
As I'm not taking a Beast General I thought that I was not allowed to ambush at all.

What skank means is the beast heards do not take away enemy units rank bonuses if they charge in the flank or rear.

sainthale1988
05-02-2008, 11:54
What skank means is the beast heards do not take away enemy units rank bonuses if they charge in the flank or rear.

don't they? they beast herd rules state that they move like skermisher but recive rank bonus (only to +2) thus act like a ranked unit in combat so i have always assumed they did.

as far as numbers go i think the optimum is 10gors (full command) and 15 ungors. the reasons for this are;

A) ungors are cheapers, thus you can get bulk outnumbering/ ranks for less
B) ungors get taken off as shooting casulaties first, so you don't need to worry about big gors getting blasted down to low numbers before combat, but you still want a big unit lots of ungors are a must ungor.
C) as ungors have spears you want as few gors in the second rank, so you can maximise your attacks if you get stuck in combat, but if you win the fight in the first round, whats the point in having loads of regular gors waiting thier time in the second rank?

i general run with two units like this and then one small unit of 5 gors (foegor and musician only) and 5 ungors to be a body guard/ anoying small unit for my shaman(s)

BLARGAG!!!
05-02-2008, 16:15
i agree with everyone here, more ungors = bigger shooting screen = better

BLARGAG!!!

BLARGAG!!!
05-02-2008, 19:50
since i am not allowed to create a new thread atm, i will ask if anyone has some general army comp/ tactics advice for a newish beasts player.

thanks a lot
BLARGAG!!!

sainthale1988
05-02-2008, 22:58
the dark heat is amazing on a wargor with a greatweapon.
if you have a beast shaman with the staff of darkoth for that amazing spell give him a powerstone to make sure he gets it off.
chaos ogres suck, take minators. trolls suck more, take minators.
give said minators greatweapons, light armour and mark of nurgle. no argument
spawn are amazing, i have 4 tzentch firewyrms (magic breath weapons ahoy!)
small units of warhounds are good at screening/ baiting or just claiming a table quarter realy cheaply
remember the fore gor is s4 not s3 like other gors.
ambush agianst gunlines/ defensive armies only
if you take a shaggoth (i love them) give them mark of slannesh (ASF) and a greatweapon. eat that elf boys!
that all i can think of off the top of my head. hope this sparks some thoughs. any question i'll keep an eye on this thread for awhile. also look at the website called herdstone for lots of good advice.

blueon462
05-02-2008, 23:16
don't they? they beast herd rules state that they move like skermisher but recive rank bonus (only to +2) thus act like a ranked unit in combat so i have always assumed they did.

Actually the rules state they act like skirmishers exept for the following exceptions.

BLARGAG!!!
06-02-2008, 00:58
sainthale1988: all of that is good and well, but i plan on doing a Khorne army, not an undivided one. but other than that, thanks for the advice (and telling me about how chaos ogres suck :P)

BLARGAG!!!

sainthale1988
06-02-2008, 09:19
*bangs head against table* why why why why khorne? he so much better with mortals but too expensive with beasts. ahh well. khorne minators with a doom bull isrealy nasty (how many s6 attacks!!!) bloodbeasts (khonry spawn) are still realy good..... don't know much more as my beast army has been all the other powers but khorne.

TheDarkDaff
06-02-2008, 11:29
The main thing with Beasts is you are pretty much stuck with 1 or at most 2 marks(not counting spawn) if you go pure beast. Minotaurs can only ever have the same mark as the General and only a single unit of Bestigor can have a mark. Chariots are stuck with undecided (and they can't change it) and if your General is also undivided you can only give Charcters other marks if you have a unit with that mark (not including spawn) which means you need those Bestigor. Only Undivided Characters can ride a Chariot (you can not mix marks). Doombulls can take Magic Weapons but no other type of magic item

All that said there are very few units in a Beasts army that can get a mark unless you run a Doombull with Minotaurs as the main force with a bit of backup. With a Khornate focus you get the Characters, a single unit of Bestigor, the Mino's, a Shaggoth Champ and some allied Mortal and Daemonic units.

Shadow Weaver
06-02-2008, 11:52
The DarkDaff:

Thanks for your input,

The Warriors I hear time & time again are supposed to be too expensive to use ranked up far better to take marauders etc then somewhere here I read that the best way to make use of them was to take extra hand weapons to get those extra hits and wounds to make up for their lack of CR. Also got box and assembled before reading list just really liked the look of the models with their shields. Suppose I could stick great weapons to their backs after they have walked across the battlefield.

Marauders were e-bay bought so that was already decided, can only assume that previous owner thought good idea and before he painted, tested and proved your point.

As yet haven't given any units marks as yet, but this style list needs those extra dice I assume.

Will happily get extra warhounds but first things first wanted the beastherds or should I change my order of priorities?

Sainthale1988:

Will take your advise and get 10Gors 15 ungors with full command, when forming ranks on the attack do you aim for 5 wide?

Am still not sure whether I should go for BOC heros with mark of Tzeentch or Shamans for this role?

sainthale1988
06-02-2008, 12:59
right ranking up with beast herds is a little complicated but simply put they rank up like skermishers (maximise number of models in front rank, then spare rank up after). in the book it says the need to rank up a minimum of 4 models. BUT i rang up games development and it should be miniumin 5 models. this is so they always get their rank bonus. this is good however as you want to get as many attacks off as possible ( i general get about 8 gors in the front rank, 2 gors and 6 ungors in the second rank so thats 3 s4 attacks (for render) and 20 s3 attacks. (this is assuming that you've been sensible and given them aditional handweapons rather than silly shields). the best herd box has 12 gors and 8 ungors (not a helpfull number!). you can buy extra old metal ungors of mail order (about 10 for five?) or you can convert them, or buy extra beast boxes, and use the extra gors as scrach built chariot crews, or you can try to convert them to bestigors).
btw don't worry excessvily about getting warhounds. there terrible, but they are the cheapest throw away unit you have for baiting etc.
the mark of tzeentch is realy expensive (70pt + hero cost!) and the law is of limited use to lv 2 spell casters..... i ran the list for a while but eventual switched to 2 bray shamans with lore of the beast (love that lore, but shadow is more powerful... see the magic tactica 101 thread for details). it comes down to personal choice.

BLARGAG!!!
07-02-2008, 16:08
sainthale1988: in the 2k list that i have right now (will be playtesting it later to see what works and what doesnt b4 i buy a bunch of stuff), i have something on the order of 7 dispel dice, a shaggoth champ, a beasts BSB, an aspiring champ, 3x 20 strong beast herds (straight out of the box), 19 khornegors, a beasts chariot, 2x 7 or 8 strong warhound units, and 14 chosen chaos warriors of khorne.

i will post the full list when i get home tonight, but that is the general rundown.
please let me know what you think of this general rundown.

thanks
BLARGAG!!!

sainthale1988
07-02-2008, 22:49
you have sufficent dispel dice (there was a thread which calculated 7 was optimal i think)
which mark on shaggoth? (i assume khorne) yea there sooo cool, and if you get the bears anger off just look at the stats you can give it.
is the BSB having the warbanner? if not, and you intend to ambush give him the prey seaker (same cost so easy switch)
what kit on the champ? you can get some realy dirty combinations
we've already discussed the beast herds but they will still be good
khornegors are sick
chariots work much better in pairs (double teaming they can take on any infantry unit in the game)
keep the warhounds at minimum 5 strong, there not worth wasting any more points than that, trust me.
chosen on foot seam realy good on paper but they realy dont work well acording to an experienced khrone player i know. better to spend the points (and cash) on knights
overall an interesting killy list. enjoy

skank
08-02-2008, 12:33
You can't put bears anger on a model more than unit strenght 1 (shagoth), shaggoths are very mediocre anyway.

Check out herdstone for beastman stuff, it's a informative (and friendly) site.

sainthale1988
08-02-2008, 12:54
yes you can: page 115 warhammer rule book, lore of the beasts;
'this spell may be cast upon the wizard himself or any single friendly caracter within 12" of him' this of course assumes you have a shaggoth champion, but then i always do. there is no limitation on US of target.

skank
08-02-2008, 13:05
oooh... realy?... cool.
must have been old edition i was thinking of.