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Anointed_By_Filth
04-02-2008, 13:18
For the past few days I've been juggling the idea of making a few datasheets for Apoc. The one that keeps recurring is an Alpha level rogue psyker, but what eludes me is the points cost, I'm not very good at giving things a cost, even after playtesting. Also, I'm not sure what powers to give an Alpha, you know, how much is just too much? I've just started reading some of the Black Library books, Fulgrim actually, but I don't know of any that go into any sort of detail for an Alpha. So, I was wondering if maybe you guys would help with this? Thanks in advance, and any help is appreciated.

Copenhagan
04-02-2008, 14:31
Read Eisenhorn and Ravenor books they give you a good idea about powers. as to the points cost I have no idea. I going to say 500+ easy.

Anointed_By_Filth
04-02-2008, 15:07
Yeah, I was thinking at the very least 500. I could make it an upgrade sort of thing, maybe gamma level and so on included as well, Alpha being the most expensive. I'll look into those two books when I finish with Fulgrim, I don't have much time to dedicate to reading and I just hit chapter 10 last night. Any other help is appreciated, thanks.

Sholto
04-02-2008, 15:35
Your Alpha Psyker could have the equivalent of Strategic Assets for powers - eg Vortex Grenade, although just about any of them could be interpreted as psychic powers with a little imagination (Flank March - the psyker hurls the units through the Warp and they appear behind the enemy's lines). That way you would have an easy way to work out the points cost, since the Apoc rulebook gives you equivalent points costs for Strategic Assets.

You would knock some points off since (a) the pysker could fail his Psychic Test and not get to use his powers that Turn (and could even trigger a Perils of the Warp) and (b) the Strategic Assets would be attached to a model, and the model could be killed.

The psyker should be accompanied by a Commissar, who would be compulsory, ready to shoot the psyker in the event of a Perils roll. If the Commissar dies and the psyker rolls Perils, then in the absence of the Commissar the Psyker either (1-3) turns into a Chaos Spawn, (4-5) turns into a Greater Daemon or (6) explodes like a Brass Scorpion!

Such a valuable individual as an Alpha psyker might even have a bodyguard of elite (eg. Stormtroopers), ready to act as a meatshield.

EDIT: just noticed you said he was a rogue psyker, so you can ignore the bits about the Commissar and so on.

Sholto

Anointed_By_Filth
04-02-2008, 16:13
I'm not so sure about just using strategic assets for the psyker's powers. Because, to me, it really takes away from the flavor of an Alpha-level. While the vortex grenade would be interesting, nothing that can use something that powerful can ever use it more than once. Giving a model the ability to 'cast' vortex grenade effects every game turn is a little much, and I was more drawn to the overwhelming power aspect rather than a small 3" template that moves around.

I'm thinking at least one high strength, AP 5 or 6 power that uses the large Apoc template. Many of the powers I think would be used like weapons, since I think that's how someone with such a high amount of psychic power would react when thrown into a battlefield. Maybe one power could operate as the lifta-droppa from the ork datasheet, since it's stated that an Alpha can literally rip a tank in half. I think that would be interesting.

Sholto
04-02-2008, 16:18
It's your datasheet, so just go with what interests you. You are on the right track with the lifta-droppa, I think, since the best starting point for new units is taking something that already exists and tweaking it.

Sholto

Mr Feral
04-02-2008, 16:29
How about a more powerful version of DH Daemonhosts?

Anointed_By_Filth
04-02-2008, 16:40
I've never actually looked at the DH Codex, Mr. Feral. Although, I am glad this thread got your attention as I've looked at your modeling log and you gained a bit of my respect (unless there's another Mr. Feral floating around here that isn't you, in which case I say poo! Then again, I could be thinking of one that you may have posted in too, I'm tired. :chrome:).

I have come up with a thought though, what if I were to model the Alpha loosely on a Farseer, as far as rules anyway. Farseers are rather powerful, and I would assume an Alpha would come with an inherent invulnerable save, considering the flux of power that would surround it. Maybe use the Farseer stat line and add in a few home-grown psychic powers?

Though I think I'll run those by here before I commit to them. I figure that the datasheet will need to come with a built-in drawback, like most 'chaos' datasheets (ref.: Terminator Annihilation Force, Warp Rift). I think I'm sold on the lifta-droppa, however.

Killgore
04-02-2008, 17:56
the draw back would have to be possession

turning the Alpha into a hand to hand combat monster that fires lightning bolts, give it rules that forces the possessed Alpha to travel say 2D6 in a random direction and shoot and charge the nearest target (any target friend or foe)


there so many cool rules you can make for a Alpha, they are that feared and powerful.

Mr Feral
04-02-2008, 18:12
(unless there's another Mr. Feral floating around here that isn't you, in which case I say poo! Then again, I could be thinking of one that you may have posted in too, I'm tired. :chrome:).


If there is, I'll hunt him down for copyright infringment :evilgrin: (oh yeah no patent...) Thanks for the good words.

On topic, the Daemonhosts psychic powers are random and the one rolled up each turn must be used, for good or bad results :). I would say think more powerful abilities, but a big explosion if he screws up his psychic test :p

On some fluff info, here's an Inquisitor article (http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/FO57Inqwytch1.pdf).

Anointed_By_Filth
04-02-2008, 20:13
Sounds good, Feral, I'll take a look at those when I have more time, I'm about to leave for the gaming store. I'll post a few more ideas tomorrow maybe, depending on if my class has finally installed the net blocking program (which I can get past, but if I'm caught I get kicked out, yadda, yadda.) So I may be sneaky and post them anyway. Thanks again for the interest.

GrandReaper
04-02-2008, 21:02
I'd say you should think along the lines of a human equivalent to a Warhound - these guys are REDICULOUS!! I mean, entire armies and even worlds can be destroyed if they happen to twitch the wrong way. If I were to design an Alpha, it would have to be something like:

WS BS S T A I W Ld
3 3 3 3 1 3 5 9

Special Rules:

Power, Overwhelming: An Alpha Level Psycher has 3 void shields, just like a super heavy vehicle. Each turn take a leadership test. If successful a fallen shield is restored. In addition he has a 3+ invlunerable save.
Stark Raving Mad: At the start of each turn take a psychic test. If a 2 or 12 is rolled, the Alpha level psycher is removed. Conduct an Apocalyptic Explosion result on his position. If the test is failed but not a 12 then the psycher loses d6 wounds. If this kills him remove the Alpha psycher and place a vortex template in his place. On any passed test (including a 2) roll a d6 on the following table at the start of each turn (before resolving the apocalyptic explosion):

..1) Both you and your opponent may place a S6 AP4 Apocalyptic Barrage (6)
..2) The psycher moves 4d6 inches towards the closest enemy, assaulting if
........possible. Treat the psycher as a super-heavy walker with a titan CCW
........and 3 attacks. This lasts until the start of the psychers next turn.
..3) Choose a removable terrain feature. Remove it. Any models inside suffer
........a S6 hit with normal armour saves allowed.
..4) Choose any enemy unit on the table. It immediatly loses 2d6 wounds, no
........saves of any sort apply. Take a psychic test as outlined above. If
........successful, choose another unit. You may do this up to four times.
..5) The psycher may fire a Range 48" S10 AP2 Ordnance 2 10" blast weapon
..6) The psycher teleports anywhere on the table, no scatter roll necessary.
........Roll again and apply the result as normal.

That seems about powerful and psychotic enough for me. I'd say he'd cost maybe 500-600 points, or more and come with a couple appropriate assets, like critical objective (the psycher - or his dead body).

Cheers,
GrandReaper

PS: I was intrigued by the idea of making an enslaver portal appear if he died from the psychic test instead of the vortex grenade, but that might push the complicated level too high.

Anointed_By_Filth
05-02-2008, 19:53
Sorry to shoot down all the work you've thought up, but I wasn't thinking of it being so extremely random. I want to make a rogue psyker with some extreme powers, not an ork warphead hopped up on methamphetamines with a tactical nuke for a head.

Anyhowzit, the first power I've come up with is, as stated earlier, the same effect as the ork lifta-droppa. The second, I haven't come up with a name for yet, but the apocalyptic blast marker will be placed centered over the psyker everything covered by the templated (except for the psyker) takes a strength 8 hit, but I'm not sure if I should allow an armor save or not. I may make it AP 4 or 5, but I figure since it doesn't scatter it shouldn't negate a save, even though this should be some super powerful thing considering the source.

The next power I'm batting around may cause a flyer to count as a skimmer for a turn, to represent the psyker pulling it from the sky, or maybe cause it to disengage. I was also thinking of a few ordinance blasts from the sky, perhaps three strength 5 AP 3 blasts that scatter.

Let me know what you think and thanks again for all the interest.

Goruax
05-02-2008, 21:11
Maybe if you hoop up the strength to 10, but then only have it with a (relatively) low AP, such as 4, it would represent the power, perhaps more as a bludgeoning force. Think Force Push on speed.

That flyer one sounds pretty good, perhaps they make an immediate roll:
1: The Psyker makes an EPIC FAIL and the flyer is unaffected. Perhaps a perils attack happens too.
2-4: The flyer must disengage immediately, or suffer a glancing hit, as the pilot struggles to retain control of their craft.
5: The flyer takes an immediate penetrating hit and must disengage (if it survives)
6: The Psyker wrenches the aircraft from the sky and slams it into the ground: you can place an Apocalyptic Barrage (4) and the flyer is destroyed.


And I love your idea, it sounds really good and would be great fun. Perhaps it'd need an independant player to use (or each side uses it in their own turn) and counts as an objective with a will of its own.

GrandReaper
05-02-2008, 22:25
No offence taken. In my mind all Alpha level psychers will be on the brink of lunacy and oblivion at the same time. Maybe you're thinking a little below alpha level - seriously, those guys are INSANE!!! (power wise I mean)

Anointed_By_Filth
06-02-2008, 19:03
Well, I read about one ages ago, but I can't remember where. She seemed pretty sane to me though.

Hulkster
06-02-2008, 20:20
alpha level psykers can destroy a planet with there mind and you want to stick them on the table top

this is insane, these 'things' can easily rip an emperor titan in half with their mind and your trying to give them a points value

try around 5,000,000 because as soon as the psyker has a turn they will win

Anointed_By_Filth
06-02-2008, 22:21
Nowhere does it say easily rip a planet in half, it says they can. Just because it says this can happen doesn't mean every Alpha is able to do it. They send Witch Hunters out to kill or capture them. Now, if they send armies out to kill or capture them, and they are killed or captured regularly, would that not mean that they are able to be captured or killed and thereby debunk your post of "When it's the psyker's turn they win."? Yes, it would.

Your post isn't very friendly and you're the first person to make such a post in this thread. In fact, everyone else that has posted in this thread has been very enthusiastic about the idea. So please, refrain from this type of posting in this thread, it isn't kind or appreciated.

Alessander
06-02-2008, 22:59
wasn't there rules for high-level (perhaps not alpha, but pretty high) rogue psyker in the kill team add-on rules in WD a few years back? the article that had the uber-bad guys, including the super robot, ghost, bound daemonhost, unbound daemonhost etc.

if I remember, it's psychic power was to place the template down so the small end touches the psyker at the start of the psyker's turn. you keep the template there until the start of his next turn - so it stays in lots of phases. anything touching it takes big hits. "gaze of doom" or something.

Gensuke626
07-02-2008, 00:48
I have to admit, I like the idea of giving the psyker a 3+ inv save and 3 void sheilds...that fits everything I've thought of that pertains to alpha psykers...I also like the idea that Void Sheilds return with successful Ld checks at the beginning of the turn.

now some Ideas...like what I would do if I were writing this...
Maybe give him "basic human stats" (ie, IG conscript) but give it Ld 10 and fearless. Base cost would be...maybe...250 points.

Alphas are granted 1 discipline from the list below, gaining all associated powers. A second discipline may be selected for +300 points.

Apocalyptic Psyker - Alphas are allowed to use as many psychic powers per turn as they wish. However for every power beyond the first, they must add an additional die to their Ld Test, taking the two highest dice as their result.

If a triple 1 or 6 is rolled, then the psyker goes into Psychic shutdown. He counts as being pinned (despite being Fearless). In addition, the alpha loses his Invulnerable save and all remaining void sheilds untill he recovers from being pinned. If he is assaulted while he is in Shutdown, he does not regain his defences untill the end of that Assault Phase.

If a quadruple 1 or 6 is rolled, then the psyker is possessed by a Greater Demon of Chaos. The Alpha is immediately removed as a Casualty and is replaced by a greater demon of the controlling player's choice. The greater demon is considered neutral and will attack the closest unit.

An Alpha may be upgraded to an Alpha+ for +250 points. An Alpha+ follows all the rules for an Alpha, but always uses the two lowest dice when rolling for powers beyond the first.

Telekinetic -
Monster TK - Like a Lifta-Droppa, but the Alpha may choose which direction to send the vehicle. In addition, the Alpha may affect superheavy vehicles, though he only moves them half the rolled distance. The Alpha may still not affect flyers.
The Sky Falls - 72" S8 AP3 Apocalyptic Barrage 2D6.

Pyromancer -
Hellstorm - Place Hellstorm Template within Line of Sight of the Alpha pointing in any direction. Resolve like a Hellstorm bombing Run. S7 AP3
Wildfire - Target unit within line or sight suffers 4D6 S9 AP2 hits. All units (friend or foe) within a number of inches equal to the number of hits inflicted suffers 3D6 S8 AP3 hits.

Biomancer -
Liquefy (aka, Face Melter)- Target a unit within 60" and LoS of the Alpha. Roll 2d6, if the result if higher than the target unit's Toughness value, then the unit is immediately removed from play as casualties, the unit may make invulverable saves but not cover or Feel No Pain saves. Against vehicles, roll 3d6 and compare to the closest armor facing. The attack is considered AP1.
Warp Fist - untill the start of his next turn, the alpha counts as having Strength D and causes D6 wounds/Damage Results in close combat.

Telepath -
Enforce Will - D6 units within LoS of the Alpha make an Ld check on 4d6 (Vehicles count as having an Ld of 10). Enemy psykers that the Alpha attempts to control may drop the highest die from their roll. Untill the beginning of the Alpha's next turn, those units are controlled by the player owning the Alpha who used this power. If Enforce Will is used on a unit that already is under control of an enemy telepath, then both players Roll a D6 and add the Ld of their respective psyker. The winner takes control of that unit.
Omniscient - The psyker may grant any unit on the board (including himself) LoS to any point on the board.

Demonology -
Warp Breach - Range 72" SD AP1, Ordnance 1, Apcalyptic Blast 10"
Destabalize Reality - All other units (Ie, everyone except the Alpha) on the board must immediately make a pinning test, with vehicles, fearless models, and tyranids within range of a synapse creature counting as Ld 10. Vehicles that are "pinned" are considered Stunned and no upgrade can change this result. Demons who fail the test are not pinned, but instead take 2D6 S10 hits with no saving throws of any kind allowed.

But this is just off the top of my head.

MeltaBombed
07-02-2008, 01:11
ref; Gensuke 626's post:

Ouch! That is just *******' lethal! This guywould be far more of a gamebreaker than a warhound or baneblade/hellhammer;

1) harder to spot
2) arguably harder to kill
3) pyromancer and alpha+ is enough to make a mess of anyone....:eek:

Gensuke626
07-02-2008, 01:34
ref; Gensuke 626's post:

Ouch! That is just *******' lethal! This guywould be far more of a gamebreaker than a warhound or baneblade/hellhammer;

1) harder to spot
2) arguably harder to kill
3) pyromancer and alpha+ is enough to make a mess of anyone....:eek:

But he's still succeptible to Psychic hoods and other anti-psyker devices...hmm...I may have to ammend that and up his points cost...On top of that, once you crack the void sheilds he's basically a sitting duck...T3 with 1 wound? Dead meat even with a 3+ inv save. And yeah, an Alpha+ Pyromancer will simply destroy armies, but it's 500 points for someone that can be killed by hitting it with 3-4 Auto Cannons and then a vindicare with a Sheild Breaker round. My thought on the Alpha is that it should be a Glass Cannon, strong enough to take a few hits, but you're going to want to keep him well hidden or well protected. And remember, Perils of the Warp isn't a shooting attack, so technically it bypasses Void Shields...

He's also not an IC, so he can be shot at by any vehicles and any infantry that pass their priority Test.

I'd like some input though on the powers. If Pyromancy calls to you that much, then I probably need to tone those down. I tried to make all disciplines capable of equal amounts of destruction, so that players would be hard pressed to select their 1 or 2 favorite disciplines.

Personally, Telepathy is my favorite. Sure, Wildfire and Hellstorm can cause dastardly amounts of damage...but Omniscient followed by 2 or 3 castings of Enforce Will? I take control of that Titan, that Thunderhawk, those vehicles and that assault squad. I cluster them around the titan...now everything fires at the titan...oh...I didn't go Critical? Well, the Titan charges the Thunderhawk and the Assault Squad runs up to plant meltabombs on the titan...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just as an after thought...

Omega Level Psyker
IG Conscript stats, with LD10.
Psychic null - An Omega level Psyker is such a void in the warp, that he litterally draws in Psychic power and nullifies it. As such, any psyker within 24" of the Omega automatically fails any psychic test that it is called upon to make. In addition, any power that affects a unit or area within 24" of the Omega is immediately nullified. This includes passive powers such as Conceal and Synapse Creature, as well as large area of affect powers such as Fury of the Anchients.

Pariah - Nobody likes an Omega, and as such, all friendly units within 12" of the Omega suffers a -2 penalty to their Ld score. In addition, units that are normally Fearless, lose this quality as long as they are within range.

Hulkster
11-02-2008, 16:54
Nowhere does it say easily rip a planet in half, it says they can. Just because it says this can happen doesn't mean every Alpha is able to do it. They send Witch Hunters out to kill or capture them. Now, if they send armies out to kill or capture them, and they are killed or captured regularly, would that not mean that they are able to be captured or killed and thereby debunk your post of "When it's the psyker's turn they win."? Yes, it would.

Your post isn't very friendly and you're the first person to make such a post in this thread. In fact, everyone else that has posted in this thread has been very enthusiastic about the idea. So please, refrain from this type of posting in this thread, it isn't kind or appreciated.

I apologise

Tonberry
11-02-2008, 17:59
I once read a short story about two small girls who were twins and alpha level psykers, and their power was the ability to manifest a killy monster, that ran around the black ship they were imprisoned on and killed everything. Rules wise it would be easy to represent this as a greater daemon, with a model representing the Alpha level psyker that takes no part in the battle.

Mojaco
11-02-2008, 18:38
That's this story.
http://uk.games-workshop.com/witchhunters/villainy-infamy/3/

Alpha psyckers is a cool idea, but don't go overboard. C'Tan are also more powerful in 'reality' as on the tabletop, but are still strong enough to be a focus point of a battle.

Thinking of which, has anyone made primarch datasheets yet? :D