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graveaccomplice
06-02-2008, 01:14
Just perusing the rumor mill. I'm hearing at my FLGS that guard will be 4 points each, with an extra heavy support choice. Have any of you heard the same?

JCOLL
06-02-2008, 01:15
Holly crap, 4 pts?!?!?! That's crazy. For what you get, I think that's a bigger drop that the Ork Boyz got.

Stonerkid655321
06-02-2008, 01:32
I have not heard anything about it, however I think guard derserve to be 4 points each.

I dont agre with the extra heavy support thow, I dont like it when they mess with the force organisation chart.

TheNZer
06-02-2008, 01:35
Guard should be 4pts each and I'd be amazed if GW didn't do a pts drop for them when they re-do Guard but i've heard nothing offical just moans, speculation and complaints. :D

Vaktathi
06-02-2008, 01:36
Holly crap, 4 pts?!?!?! That's crazy. For what you get, I think that's a bigger drop that the Ork Boyz got.

its about the same % drop in pts (9pts to 6 and 6 to 4, both 33%). An Ork for 2pts more in that case has 4 attacks on a charge at S4 I3 and an armor save that in most circumstances will have the same effectiveness as the Guardsmens armor save, can have a better basic weapon (Shoota versus Lasgun), higher toughness and WS etc...

Joewrightgm
06-02-2008, 01:37
Not really that big a drop compared to Orks.

Basic Slugga Boy, circa 3rd ed: 9pts, for Heavy Close Combat Weapon.
Basic Slugga Boy, circa 4th ed: lost the 1pt to make up the loss of the HCCW, then the developers knocked another 2 off the top.

Since Guard is the "biggest" Imperium Military Organization, they bring bodies, lots and lots of bodies to the playground.

Wyssy Wyg
06-02-2008, 01:40
Extra heavy support choice? Never gonna happen. Therefore I declare this rumor to be bunk.

Deathraven
06-02-2008, 01:43
I don't think they'll get that cheap, simply because of the number of extra heavy weapons guard would be able to bring to the field. In many recent codex releases the number of heavy weapons on infantry squads have been reduced (eg DA, BA and CSM all needing big squads to get a more expensive heavy weapon), so I doubt they will have guard infantry squads each with a heavy weapon being 20pts cheaper.
I imagine it'll be something like 1pt cheaper and something lame like free frags.

RUSSADER
06-02-2008, 01:46
Extra heavy support choice? Never gonna happen. Therefore I declare this rumor to be bunk.

Not nessacarily read http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124614 and you'll see where Jervis himself was talking about them possibly doing just that.

ReveredChaplainDrake
06-02-2008, 02:05
4pt Guardsmen?!?! My humble little Termegaunts just saw the Ork codex and went to themselves "This is what 6 pts goes for nowadays? Y'know what, screw this, in my next life I'm gonna' be a Carnifex!" before fleshborering their own heads off. I would hate to be an Eldar player, whose Guardians go for twice the cost as these new Guardsmen. But even after the Orks, to think it gets worse...

It looks like 4th ed has finally and truly fallen apart. No wonder 5th ed rumors are so rampant. 4th ed has finally gotten to a point where their own codecies are one-upping each other, and the most powerful army is as easily determined as whoever has the newer codex.

I miss the good ol' days of the pre-Chaos codex, back when every other codex could relatively and conceivably be as competetive as every other one, given a proper player... But Chaos was ultimately really broke compared to Space Marines for often-repeated reasons. Now that Orks are released, they're broke. And then the Guard, who will corner the market on hordes even further, making the single cells of the Hive Mind look like Aspect Warriors. Who's next? I have just two words that will scare the observant gamer's pants off if this keeps up: Pariah Spam.

The Dude
06-02-2008, 02:06
Yes, I've heard the extra HS slot rumour, but 4pt guard seems a bit much. I suppose it depends on their context within the whole list.

Rather than an extra HS slot, I think making Russes and Hellhounds 2 per slot could work. Not sure if this would overbalance things, but I think if someone is trying to jam 6 Russes into a standard game, they're going to be pretty weak in other areas.

Marneus Calgar
06-02-2008, 02:13
4pt Guardsmen?!?! My humble little Termegaunts just saw the Ork codex and went to themselves "This is what 6 pts goes for nowadays? Y'know what, screw this, in my next life I'm gonna' be a Carnifex!" before fleshborering their own heads off. I would hate to be an Eldar player, whose Guardians go for twice the cost as these new Guardsmen. But even after the Orks, to think it gets worse...

It looks like 4th ed has finally and truly fallen apart. No wonder 5th ed rumors are so rampant. 4th ed has finally gotten to a point where their own codecies are one-upping each other, and the most powerful army is as easily determined as whoever has the newer codex.

I miss the good ol' days of the pre-Chaos codex, back when every other codex could relatively and conceivably be as competetive as every other one, given a proper player... But Chaos was ultimately really broke compared to Space Marines for often-repeated reasons. Now that Orks are released, they're broke. And then the Guard, who will corner the market on hordes even further, making the single cells of the Hive Mind look like Aspect Warriors. Who's next? I have just two words that will scare the observant gamer's pants off if this keeps up: Pariah Spam.

It's Imperial Guard you are talking about here, not the god like Space Marines. They will make IG different, not better. I mean, GW needs a crappy human race that all other armies can be compared to.

Anyway, a four point guardsmen is not going to solve any of the Imperial Guard issues.

RUSSADER
06-02-2008, 02:24
A 1/3 to 1/2 reduction in the price of an Ogryn might fix some things, but at the end of the day, even the heaviest all core troop basic cadian IG army might save 200 points in the end, at most. That just means a few more guards, a reduction in the Ogryns would make them competive enought that people might actually use them on a regual bassis again.

But if this drop in points does occure, then what does that do to the worker rabble from Vraks?

Billpete002
06-02-2008, 02:27
It's Imperial Guard you are talking about here, not the god like Space Marines. They will make IG different, not better. I mean, GW needs a crappy human race that all other armies can be compared to.

Anyway, a four point guardsmen is not going to solve any of the Imperial Guard issues.

Actually it makes a big difference. Just in sheer numbers in a 2k game (lets assume you take guard with no extra weapons) you can take with 6pts 333 models. At 4pts you can take 500 guard. Tack on an extra HS slot and throw the current amount of plasma and heavy weapons. the IG begin to look a lot more powerful than they were before.

Though I think they should get rid of all of the doctrines as they are an annoyance (IMHO), and the way the books are going they are doing just that!

belize13
06-02-2008, 02:28
with the added run fast rule, guard will need more guns firing in those early turns to properly thin out the oncoming army. dropping a guardsman to 4 points and giving them and extra heavy support certainly does give IG the much needed(in 5th ed) extra firepower.

plus this means IG players will suddenly not have enough models and have to go out and buy either more guardsmen, or an extra tank.

Starfarer
06-02-2008, 02:32
4pt Guardsmen?!?! My humble little Termegaunts just saw the Ork codex and went to themselves "This is what 6 pts goes for nowadays? Y'know what, screw this, in my next life I'm gonna' be a Carnifex!" before fleshborering their own heads off. I would hate to be an Eldar player, whose Guardians go for twice the cost as these new Guardsmen. But even after the Orks, to think it gets worse...

It looks like 4th ed has finally and truly fallen apart. No wonder 5th ed rumors are so rampant. 4th ed has finally gotten to a point where their own codecies are one-upping each other, and the most powerful army is as easily determined as whoever has the newer codex.

I miss the good ol' days of the pre-Chaos codex, back when every other codex could relatively and conceivably be as competetive as every other one, given a proper player... But Chaos was ultimately really broke compared to Space Marines for often-repeated reasons. Now that Orks are released, they're broke. And then the Guard, who will corner the market on hordes even further, making the single cells of the Hive Mind look like Aspect Warriors. Who's next? I have just two words that will scare the observant gamer's pants off if this keeps up: Pariah Spam.

First, I wouldn't be so up in arms because one guy said they might be 4 pts and has no info to back up his claim other than, "some guys at my FLGS said so." Dudes in gaming stores say all kinds of things, alot of which shouldn't be believed. So calm down, it's just a rumor. ;)

Second, I think your assessment of the codex releases is the exact opposite of what is happening. The new codices (from 2007 on) are much more balanced than the old ones which were always one-upping the previous codex.

I will say that 4 HS options would probably be a bad move and encourage powergamers to pick up IG. I feel they have a really well balanced list and short of a few changes and an update to the doctrine system, I think they work fine as is.

Marneus Calgar
06-02-2008, 02:33
Hopefully, and it better be, IG will get their codex for the 5th edition. If the IG get a codex for the 4th edition, I am going to be one unhappy camper.

If the rumors about LoS in the 5th edition are true, then that also sucks for IG. More men means that it will be very difficult for our troops to get LoS on enemy targets.

azimaith
06-02-2008, 02:39
If they go down to 4 points each they're going to need most of their leadership bolstering abilities. 4 points is cheaper than a spine gaunt with overall better stats and guns.

RUSSADER
06-02-2008, 02:42
plus this means IG players will suddenly not have enough models and have to go out and buy either more guardsmen, or an extra tank.
I think that is what GW has been trying to do since the beginings of 4th edition. In the distant future of 40K around the year 2010 while 7th edition is floating around the rumours forums, a space marine will have the points price of 1 and the new guard codex rumours will be debating as to whether a guard will be .03 or .05 points while a standard game is still 1500 points and 3000 for Apocalypse.

TheOneWithNoName
06-02-2008, 02:45
Not just the Vraks list, but all Forge World IG lists would have to be retooled. Especially the way overpriced D-99.

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-02-2008, 02:52
4pt Guardsmen?!?! My humble little Termegaunts just saw the Ork codex and went to themselves "This is what 6 pts goes for nowadays? Y'know what, screw this, in my next life I'm gonna' be a Carnifex!" before fleshborering their own heads off. I would hate to be an Eldar player, whose Guardians go for twice the cost as these new Guardsmen. But even after the Orks, to think it gets worse...

Guardians who can fleet, guardians who can move and shoot their heavy weapons, guardians who can get a constant 5+ cover save. Guardians who have an army filled with Elite troops so having a 4 point troop in it would be stupid.



It looks like 4th ed has finally and truly fallen apart. No wonder 5th ed rumors are so rampant. 4th ed has finally gotten to a point where their own codecies are one-upping each other, and the most powerful army is as easily determined as whoever has the newer codex.

Really? you mean compared to the old codi? Or instead of?



I miss the good ol' days of the pre-Chaos codex, back when every other codex could relatively and conceivably be as competetive as every other one, given a proper player... But Chaos was ultimately really broke compared to Space Marines for often-repeated reasons. Now that Orks are released, they're broke. And then the Guard, who will corner the market on hordes even further, making the single cells of the Hive Mind look like Aspect Warriors. Who's next? I have just two words that will scare the observant gamer's pants off if this keeps up: Pariah Spam.

Orks are broken ay? Looks like someone just lost a game :P

Also, i would like to see the current Imperial Guard codex facing off against the current Tyranid codex.

Guess who wins almost every time?

Aryakas
06-02-2008, 02:56
Also, i would like to see the current Imperial Guard codex facing off against the current Tyranid codex.

Guess who wins almost every time?

I've seen plenty of games end both ways...

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-02-2008, 03:21
I've seen plenty of games end both ways...

ah, sorry. I got alittle carried away there.

The Imperial Guard army list is fine if you play the few ways which allow you to compete well.

If you want your guardsmen army to move? Tough luck, you need the heavy weapons. (im trying it anyway, my god its hard to compete)

The Imperial guard codex needs its units to all be able to compete. Stormtroopers and Ogryns compared to Veterans for example.

Vaktathi
06-02-2008, 03:32
4pt Guardsmen?!?! My humble little Termegaunts just saw the Ork codex and went to themselves "This is what 6 pts goes for nowadays? Y'know what, screw this, in my next life I'm gonna' be a Carnifex!" before fleshborering their own heads off. I would hate to be an Eldar player, whose Guardians go for twice the cost as these new Guardsmen. But even after the Orks, to think it gets worse... Guardians also have higher Initiative, heavy weapons that function as Assault type, fleet, higher Ld, and higher S and better AP guns.


It looks like 4th ed has finally and truly fallen apart. No wonder 5th ed rumors are so rampant. 4th ed has finally gotten to a point where their own codecies are one-upping each other, and the most powerful army is as easily determined as whoever has the newer codex. I really don't think this is true, neither the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, or Chaos codex's were really anything out of the ordinary and in many cases were nerfs. Although I do think the Ork codex went a bit far in several respects, but they also went a long time with a crappy army list.


I miss the good ol' days of the pre-Chaos codex, back when every other codex could relatively and conceivably be as competetive as every other one, given a proper player... But Chaos was ultimately really broke compared to Space Marines for often-repeated reasons. I fail to see how the Chaos codex did all this. Most people agree that it was a nerf compared with its previous iteration. How is the CSM codex more powerful now than it was previously? Yes we have alot of equipment on our basic CSM, but lose squad size flexibility, everything got more expensive, no more 4 HS+9Oblits/Daemonbombs/Sirenprince/etc. The two books I've seen most abused recently are actually the Eldar (Skimmerspam), Tyranid (nidzilla), and Space Marines. All of these are older than the current Chaos book.


Now that Orks are released, they're broke. And then the Guard, who will corner the market on hordes even further, making the single cells of the Hive Mind look like Aspect Warriors. Who's next? I have just two words that will scare the observant gamer's pants off if this keeps up: Pariah Spam. The problem is, right now a Guardsmen isn't worth 6pts. Hell even at 5pts, 3 IG will not outshoot or outfight a space marine, a single Fire Warriors will outshoot 3 IG, etc...

The current metagame just doesn't function well for units like guardsmen, which are so underwhelming compared with everything else in the game that its hard to price them with the average ability of a unit so much higher.






Not just the Vraks list, but all Forge World IG lists would have to be retooled. Especially the way overpriced D-99.
I don't think thats a bad thing, IG in general tend to have very overpriced units all around. The Krieg siege list in IA:5, the D-99, and almost every FW tank variant (in addition to most of the codex tanks) are hideously overpriced for their capabilities relative to their equivalent units in other armies, FW still tends to price everything relative to things that came out in early 3rd ed in the late 90's, not to any of the really recent armies.

Baaltharus
06-02-2008, 03:43
In regards to the above post I largely agree but if anyone says that Guardians are anything but overpriced and crap then I'm going to have to disagree with them.

The Dude
06-02-2008, 03:56
In regards to the above post I largely agree but if anyone says that Guardians are anything but overpriced and crap then I'm going to have to disagree with them.

Well it's been said, so by all means, disagree, but make sure you explain why you disagree fully. Varath- Lord Impaler and Vaktathi were good enough to highlight the reasons they think they are not so ;)

BladeWalker
06-02-2008, 03:57
As long as there is a way to make a Guard list without using 50 Guardsmen as Troops I won't even notice their cost. :) I love IG but I don't plan on ever having any guardsmen, the elite units, armor, and abhumans are what I am mainly interested in. I hope that Guard can still be characterful and non-horde in the new ruleset/codex.

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-02-2008, 03:57
WOOHOO!!!11! Kudos! :p

Vaktathi
06-02-2008, 03:57
Oh I don't think Guardians are all that great of a unit at all, especially when dealing with MEQ's and the like, but when looking at them compared with Guardsmen they aren't that overpriced. That's the problem, the standard Guardsmen is just that weak.

marneus54
06-02-2008, 04:11
It's Imperial Guard you are talking about here, not the god like Space Marines. They will make IG different, not better. I mean, GW needs a crappy human race that all other armies can be compared to.

Anyway, a four point guardsmen is not going to solve any of the Imperial Guard issues.

Yeah 1 might not do it, cause I mean cmon its one guy. Now lets say we play a 2000 point standard battle. Mkay you pull out a basic 3 12 man fire warrior teams a transport each 10 battle suits 5 stealth and a hammerhead. I pull out 1 leman, 1 basilisk a command squad and a few various elite teams.

Then I slip darkly under then table. You hear obnoxious giggles, my head pops up from the other side dragging a large board...with 300 gaurdsman ready to las your face off!!!

TrooperTino
06-02-2008, 04:12
could it be that a 'naked' flashlight guy costs 4 Pts, but you will have options in the troop sections that increase the costs to a normal level? like this: for 40 pts you get a 10 men squad without flakarmor, LD 6 and BF2 (like conscripts) and than you can upgrade them to your will and so make them perhaps even more expensive?

just thinking because like it seems they wanna get rid of the doctrines, and instead include all options in the unit entry... so the basic 4pts guardsmen is actually a conscript?!

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-02-2008, 04:16
3 12 man fire teams.

360 points vs

hmmm lets say 35 points for Officer and command and 40 points for infantry squads.

Thats 3 commands and 6 squads, isnt it?

around that.

hmmm, you start the game further back so you get a shooting phase unhindered. 1 squad at a command squad while the others aim at infantry squads.

so 12 shots, 6 hits, 5 wounds. Dead command squad

24 shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds, dead infantry squad.

Imperial guard move into position

Same thing again, except 2 command squads dead and an infantry squad at half health.

Oh look...Ld 7 and no damage to the tau.

You poor souls.

marneus54
06-02-2008, 04:19
@above: im confused :confused: poor souls to whom?

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-02-2008, 04:25
Yeah 1 might not do it, cause I mean cmon its one guy. Now lets say we play a 2000 point standard battle. Mkay you pull out a basic 3 12 man fire warrior teams a transport each 10 battle suits 5 stealth and a hammerhead. I pull out 1 leman, 1 basilisk a command squad and a few various elite teams.

Then I slip darkly under then table. You hear obnoxious giggles, my head pops up from the other side dragging a large board...with 300 gaurdsman ready to las your face off!!!"

Should have quoted this.

Alright, ill make it less confusing :P

Lets invisage this scenario.

3 12 man Firewarrior squads
vs
3 Platoons of Imperial guard infantry (3 command squads and 6 Infantry squads)

On average in the first turn, the Tau player can kill all 3 Officers and command squads leaving the Infantry squads with Ld 7

It gets worse if the Tau player plays with 6 units of 6 fire warriors, because then once they destroy the Command squads they can pick off 2/3 guardsmen from each squad and force Ld tests.

even if guardsmen are 4 points, the Tau Easily win.

marneus54
06-02-2008, 04:26
But against 300 semi naked gaurds...idk thats a bit stacked against 36 'snipers'

edit: ty for clarifying.

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-02-2008, 04:28
But against 300 semi naked gaurds...idk thats a bit stacked against 36 'snipers'

edit: ty for clarifying

300?!

where do you get that number from?

Also, i think its not off the cards. Especially if you see the 5th edition rumours.

You can take 300, but only expect around 50 to fire in any given turn.

marneus54
06-02-2008, 04:29
Im thinking 300 at 4 points each is only 1200 points leaving you 800 points to buy various goodies. Sure 50 may fire but eventually they'll get into combat.

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-02-2008, 04:32
Im thinking 300 at 4 points each is only 1200 points leaving you 800 points to buy various goodies. Sure 50 may fire but eventually they'll get into combat.

And get slaughtered?

Because you cant fit that many models into combat?

Imagine the carnage if the tau player used a Submunition or 3!

marneus54
06-02-2008, 04:34
That image makes me smile. Sorry maybe I'm totally wrong about that whole idea. I was thinking in terms of nids. Like lots of bad nids equals lots of dead ppl...same concept only these guys aren't looking for a meal they are doing there duty.

Loki73
06-02-2008, 04:35
PLease dont let Jervis do this codex! Please please please.

marneus54
06-02-2008, 04:36
PLease dont let Jervis do this codex! Please please please.

Whos jervis?

azimaith
06-02-2008, 04:42
And get slaughtered?

Because you cant fit that many models into combat?

Imagine the carnage if the tau player used a Submunition or 3!
Uh the guard will win even assuming that every guard squad taking 25% casualties breaks and runs, the guard take no heavy weapons and do not use cover.

The Dude
06-02-2008, 04:54
could it be that a 'naked' flashlight guy costs 4 Pts, but you will have options in the troop sections that increase the costs to a normal level? like this: for 40 pts you get a 10 men squad without flakarmor, LD 6 and BF2 (like conscripts) and than you can upgrade them to your will and so make them perhaps even more expensive?

just thinking because like it seems they wanna get rid of the doctrines, and instead include all options in the unit entry... so the basic 4pts guardsmen is actually a conscript?!

I think this could be a likely explanation, however I would not discount the chance it is all ******** ;)

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-02-2008, 04:55
Uh the guard will win even assuming that every guard squad taking 25% casualties breaks and runs, the guard take no heavy weapons and do not use cover.

He was talking about guardsmen trying to get into combat.

But also if people are talking about taking the Megalithic amounts of guardsmen that are being mentioned here, then:

5th edition- they wont see the enemy
They will need to spend 5 points a squad for voxes thats alot once you get that high.
They will need to purchase heavy weapons and special weapons for each squad (if you want them too)
etc etc etc.

The Dude
06-02-2008, 04:57
But also if people are talking about taking the Megalithic amounts of guardsmen that are being mentioned here, then:

5th edition- they wont see the enemy
They will need to spend 5 points a squad for voxes thats alot once you get that high.
They will need to purchase heavy weapons and special weapons for each squad (if you want them too)
etc etc etc.

This is an important point. The "naked" troop may drop in cost, but don't assume the upgrades will stay the same ;)

azimaith
06-02-2008, 04:57
The guardsmen only need a line of models being kneeling or part of the group being up on a hill while others are not, not to mention other angles.

I don't agree with raising or lowering basic cost to account for possible choices of weapons and wargear. That needs to be paid for on a piece by piece basis.

Baltar
06-02-2008, 04:59
I can't believe people are actually COMPLAINING about Guard being "overpowered" based on this rumor.

What is wrong with people?

Personally, I feel that 4 pt Guardsmen would be amazing. I would be A LOT less afraid of close combat, against ANYONE, for the simple reason that I could buy more bodies to throw around, AND when I lost Guardsmen it would hardly mean anything. I would suddenly feel MUCH more aggressive, getting into RF range, and maybe assaulting if I thought it could do some damage.

Add in a MASSIVE points reduction cost on the advisors and a changing of the stupid Advisor restrictions, and we will be getting loads of Commissars, Guardsmen, Tanks, etc. The Guard will be rolling along like it ought to have always been/

The extra HS slot would be great, but isn't really needed. You won't have very much open space if the first part of the rumor is true.

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-02-2008, 05:04
Im not discounting it, but as im writing a Testdex for guard (PLEASE GIVE ME COMMENTS! ITS IN MY SIG) ive found that 5 point guardsmen are almost good enough. 4 point would be bordering on too much.

But we'll have to see.

Baltar
06-02-2008, 05:07
After playing for a couple of years with "nowhere near enough" "almost too much" sounds pretty great truth be told.

Maxis Lithium
06-02-2008, 05:35
Meh. A Conscript is already 4 points a pop, so perhaps they're talking about the Conscripts instead. I doubt we'll see less then a 6 point per body guardsman. Maybe 5 points, but I doubt it.

Baaltharus
06-02-2008, 06:08
"

Should have quoted this.

Alright, ill make it less confusing :P

Lets invisage this scenario.

3 12 man Firewarrior squads
vs
3 Platoons of Imperial guard infantry (3 command squads and 6 Infantry squads)

On average in the first turn, the Tau player can kill all 3 Officers and command squads leaving the Infantry squads with Ld 7

It gets worse if the Tau player plays with 6 units of 6 fire warriors, because then once they destroy the Command squads they can pick off 2/3 guardsmen from each squad and force Ld tests.

even if guardsmen are 4 points, the Tau Easily win.

Except that in 5th edition they supposedly won't be able to fire on the command sections making your point somewhat mute.

Baaltharus
06-02-2008, 06:12
Oh I don't think Guardians are all that great of a unit at all, especially when dealing with MEQ's and the like, but when looking at them compared with Guardsmen they aren't that overpriced. That's the problem, the standard Guardsmen is just that weak.

I like how you chose your words carefully, lol. 'When looking at them compared with Guardsmen they aren't that overpriced', this statement I'd agree with, they are not massively overpriced but they ARE overpriced, 6-7 points would be a more reasonable price, though I'm still astounded they never changed their armour, weapons or both from the 3rd edition more than I am about their cost.

Cuthullu
06-02-2008, 06:21
If you change the point cost down to 4pts per model, hell where shall the guard players deploy their armies?
Standard tables are too small for that. And there would be no space between the squads to avoid a cc unit munch trough the whole army.

Never do that.
Give the ordinary guard squad more goodies instead of a price drop. A free veteran sergeant and vox maybe, or a possible upgrade of one medic per squad, free nades, a second special weapon if you dont take a heavy one or things like that.
But no price drop.

bosstroll
06-02-2008, 06:43
Except that in 5th edition they supposedly won't be able to fire on the command sections making your point somewhat mute.

Exactly, not too mention that even under current rules its easy to keep a command squad within 12" of a bunch of guard squads but outside of the 30" shooting range of the firewarriors.

Yamagon
06-02-2008, 07:07
Meh. A Conscript is already 4 points a pop, so perhaps they're talking about the Conscripts instead. I doubt we'll see less then a 6 point per body guardsman. Maybe 5 points, but I doubt it.

but, what happens if this is right? What happens to conscripts???? Will they be gone because every 'flashlight' is a basically a conscript? What if they reduce the price of them??? 3pts? 2pts?...1pt?

Unless this 4pts is a guardsman with flashlight and shirt armour (less than flack) and upgrading him to have flack armour would make him 6pts... that almost makes sense.

Also, will this lead to GW doing what they did with the Ork Boyz box, i.e ten guys at around just over half the price, so if you want the same amount as the old box set youll need to get 2, and ultimatly crushing ur wallet?

Although I love the idea of mass guard (and have tried and failed it b4) it could seriously mess everything up. Any GW people in this forum, stick to 5pt minimum.

Binky
06-02-2008, 07:21
As I'm collecting FW Death Korps I can see two possible problems with this, firstly, it's going to pretty much obsolete the current DK list by making the gaurdsmen even more horribly overpriced, secondly, if using the regular guard list or if they update the DK list, how many £3.20 each resin guardsmen!

TheOneWithNoName
06-02-2008, 07:28
4 point Guardsmen doesn't necessarily mean everyone will be taking 400 Guardsmen every game. It will free up more points for shiny toys (advisors, vehicles, upgrades, special units).

Blutrache
06-02-2008, 07:29
Hopefully they won't reduce cost to 4pts/guardsman. Mainly because painting hundreds of guardsmen (that will certainly come at 10/box, mind you) and cramming them onto the board just to sweep 'em off with broom when the shooting begins is just boring. Imagine a newbie who gets to hear "If you wanna start guard, you'll just have to assemble and paint these 100 guards first..." As if there isn't enough unpainted armies out there. And if there ever was any kind of tactics involved this would be replaced with a "he who has the most dice to roll wins, statistically speaking". Lower the cost for advisors, extra equipment and ogryns and allow for more specialized units i.e. heavy mortars, SW squads and REAL snipers for instance.

Meh. I'll have to pick up the marines again. And it's all GWs fault :p

/Cheers

Baltar
06-02-2008, 07:54
Hopefully they won't reduce cost to 4pts/guardsman. Mainly because painting hundreds of guardsmen (that will certainly come at 10/box, mind you) and cramming them onto the board just to sweep 'em off with broom when the shooting begins is just boring.


Its somehow better to have more expensive Guardsmen to sweep off with a broom once the shooting starts?

Its not boring at all actually...it would be pretty damn cool to plop down that many Guardsmen at once in a 2000 pt game.

Having paid 1500 bucks for my last Guard army I am not disposed to be sympathetic to those who whine because they have to buy an extra box set or two of Cadians. If you hate it, go back to Space Marines.

Ubik_Lives
06-02-2008, 08:14
3 12 man fire teams.

360 points vs

hmmm lets say 35 points for Officer and command and 40 points for infantry squads.

Thats 3 commands and 6 squads, isnt it?

around that.

Because IG squads are well known for walking around without heavy weapons and having a command squad for every two infantry squads. Also they always start over 30" away from the Tau and always lose the first turn.

I can just as easily throw it back the other way if you want to be silly about it.

3 x 12 Firewarriors

vs

1 Command Squad with mortar behind cover
6 Infantry Squads with Heavy Bolter

IG are 35" away and get first turn.
18 HB shots, 9 hit, 7 dead Tau.
1 mortar shot misses

Tau move forward.

IG fire again
18 HB shots, 9 hit, 7 dead Tau.
1 mortar shot hits 2.5 Tau, 2 wound, one dead Tau. Squad pinned.

There. The Tau have two squads below half strength and one pinned and the IG haven't even taken a casaulty. I think a better comparison is having them both shooting at Marines, the bread and butter enemy of the 40k universe. Plus having more squads is just an advantage in itself. 4 points is way too cheap for the IG, even with the orks at 6pts.

Famder
06-02-2008, 08:17
Even though I play Orks I think a 4pt price drop is too much. I think if they dropped it to 5pts and gave them a doctrine for free or some pierce of gear then they'd be fine. Conscripts should also be 3pts, they are to guard as Grots are to Orks and should be the same price. The basic guardsman doesn't need an overhaul as much as the otehr aspects of the army, the things that are meant to support the fragile infantry.

Baltar
06-02-2008, 08:20
Even though I play Orks I think a 4pt price drop is too much. I think if they dropped it to 5pts and gave them a doctrine for free or some pierce of gear then they'd be fine.

What doctrine could they possibly give that EVERYONE would want, and be willing to pay probably several hundred points for in an army?

Honestly, what is the deal with the opposition to this idea?

Shield of Freedom
06-02-2008, 08:26
Hopefully, and it better be, IG will get their codex for the 5th edition. If the IG get a codex for the 4th edition, I am going to be one unhappy camper.

First point: The current codex is 4th edition. It came out shortly before that ruleset and was made with it in mind. Remember, since 3rd edition the current Imperial Guard codex is the second one to come out.

Second point: As an Imperial Guard player (and Eldar) since 2nd edition even I think 4 points is too low. 5 points sound right. I'm also worried about the advisors and tanks though. Only the Hellhound is about right for it's points. I would like to have the option of either a horde army or a slightly more elite and smaller force like you can now.

I'm one of those players that will spend my extra points I get from a codex point drop on extra goodies, characters, and vehicles... not more guardsmen, I have enough as it is.

Baltar
06-02-2008, 08:38
I'm one of those players that will spend my extra points I get from a codex point drop on extra goodies, characters, and vehicles... not more guardsmen, I have enough as it is.

I think that is what most people intend.

A gigantic uber Guard horde would be terribly unwieldy and impossible to deploy and use well.

Blutrache
06-02-2008, 09:02
Its somehow better to have more expensive Guardsmen to sweep off with a broom once the shooting starts?

Its not boring at all actually...it would be pretty damn cool to plop down that many Guardsmen at once in a 2000 pt game.

Having paid 1500 bucks for my last Guard army I am not disposed to be sympathetic to those who whine because they have to buy an extra box set or two of Cadians. If you hate it, go back to Space Marines.

If quantity has a quality all of it's own may I suggest Apocalypse? And my points were half serious half in jest. Shield of Freedom got the words more right than I did I think. And the problem isn't vets who has already shelled out the dough and own 1500000+ models, but the newbies who'll have a higer threshold to pass, methinks. They don't have to buy and paint one or two extra boxes to create the horde of unwieldyness, massive shooting and dicerolling...

/Cheers

The Judge
06-02-2008, 09:18
My all-metal Vostroyan army is gonna *really* hurt the wallet at 4pts each.

I was more willing to believe 5pts each... 4 just seems slightly too low.

Kriegsherr
06-02-2008, 09:32
This is an important point. The "naked" troop may drop in cost, but don't assume the upgrades will stay the same ;)

And, most likely, the upgrades won't stay the same, but increase in cost in the most case.

Based on the prices for the newest space marine codices and the new ork codex, I'd say prices will look like that:

- grenade launcher: 5 pts
- meltagun: 10 pts
- flamer: 10 pts
- plasmagun: 15 pts

Prices for plasmaguns have gone up in all the new SM codices, and there is an increase in the price for burnas in the new ork codex that seems to not only come from the fact that burnas can be used as power weapons as the skorchas also saw an almost 200% price increase.

now, if heavy weapon prices also increase (what I don't think as guard never got them at so cheap prices than beakie-boyz), you will look at the same price for an completly outfitted guard unit, but have the option now to use them naked without beeing completly out of your mind because they are just to expensive without the special and heavy weapons.

To me, 4 points sound reasonable, but i'd say 45 points for 10 is about right.

Baltar
06-02-2008, 09:35
The thing about people trying to apply SW points increases from the SM codex to the Guard codex is that Guard fire at BS3, and die A WHOLE LOT more easily to Plasma weapon Gets Hot! than Space Marines do.

I'd say the special and heavy weapons stay the same or drop.

GW isn't going to come to this codex from the vantage point of just moving points around to different places in the book. IG needs a shot in the arm, not just a shifting of points away from the troops to the gear.

Stingray_tm
06-02-2008, 09:35
5 points would be okay, i think. It would get IG troopers in line with other cannon fodder troops like Spinegaunts, who have an equal powerlevel. Both have comparable stats, Guardsmen are slightly better at mid-range, while Spinegaunts are equal in close range fire and slightly better in cc.

Kriegsherr
06-02-2008, 09:42
The thing about people trying to apply SW points increases from the SM codex to the Guard codex is that Guard fire at BS3, and die A WHOLE LOT more easily to Plasma weapon Gets Hot! than Space Marines do.

I'd say the special and heavy weapons stay the same or drop.

GW isn't going to come to this codex from the vantage point of just moving points around to different places in the book. IG needs a shot in the arm, not just a shifting of points away from the troops to the gear.

The thing is that this people just know how GW works since 2nd edition, and that is that IG always paid the same prices for the same wepaons as the SM no matter what BS or Save they've got. Else GW also had to adjust prices for stormtroopers, veterans, and IG Soldiers with carapace. They would never do that, they never care about IG BS and saves when applying the SM Weapon prices to IG, they care more about the use of the weapon to the army as a whole, and there IG need the weapons much more than SM, thats why they pay more for it.

And it is more fitting for IG to have really cheap soldiers handling expensive weapons... human lives in the IG are cheaper than even their crappy equipment :)

Baltar
06-02-2008, 09:44
The thing is that this people just know how GW works since 2nd edition, and that is that IG always paid the same prices for the same wepaons as the SM no matter what BS or Save they've got. Else GW also had to adjust prices for stormtroopers, veterans, and IG Soldiers with carapace. They would never do that, they never care about IG BS and saves when applying the SM Weapon prices to IG, they care more about the use of the weapon to the army as a whole, and there IG need the weapons much more than SM, thats why they pay more for it.


Part of the problem with the Guard is that it has mostly stayed the exact same army it has been since 1993. It needs not just a points adjustment but some rethinking.

Maybe its time to break the cycle of pricing the Special weapons like SM special weapons.

Especially when it comes to things like power fists and plama pistols.

Mike3791
06-02-2008, 09:45
Extra heavy support choice? Never gonna happen. Therefore I declare this rumor to be bunk.

Actually If you check out the interview with Jervis Johnson you will see this.


Sorry for you armoured company guys, Jervis mentioned when I asked that they'd be ridiculously hard to manage balance wise, but they're throwing around the idea of giving Guard maybe 4 Heavy Support slots. He first said 6 and then when my eyes widened in shock he laughed and shrugged, "Well maybe 4...". He feels armoured company are better off in Apocalypse, and he might do a datasheet on them for it, but as far as 40K it doesn't look good.

Kriegsherr
06-02-2008, 09:59
Part of the problem with the Guard is that it has mostly stayed the exact same army it has been since 1993. It needs not just a points adjustment but some rethinking.

Maybe its time to break the cycle of pricing the Special weapons like SM special weapons.

Especially when it comes to things like power fists and plama pistols.

power fists are not priced like the SM equivalent.

And as much as I'd like a complete rethinking of the guards playstyle, most IG Players like the way it plays, and to be honest I don't think there is much room to make the weapons cheaper as its a very narrow room between beeing underpowered like they are now in most cases and beeing overpowered.

A very likely candidate for a price drop though is the sentinel... just look at the kans that were already cheap before and now got 5 points cheaper...

Baltar
06-02-2008, 10:01
I hate sentinels. Good god...if they honestly think lowering the price of sentinels is going to be something to "bring the Guard back"...ughhh.

Kriegsherr
06-02-2008, 10:09
I hate sentinels. Good god...if they honestly think lowering the price of sentinels is going to be something to "bring the Guard back"...ughhh.

And it wouldn't be something to "bring the Guard back" because.... ?

You not liking sentinels?

I think there are enough IG Players out there that think the exact opposite and would be pleased if this overpriced sweety would finally get competetive compared to similar units from other armies.

Actually the sentinel is exactly the way I envision IG as a whole... mobile, lightly armoured and dieing quickly, but carrying the biggest gun around that could be fitted on the small chassis. Its much more fun to play IG that way than with static firepower (that Leman Russes will return to be under the 5th edition rules... this is my biggest beef with the 5th ed rumours)

Cuthullu
06-02-2008, 10:24
Having paid 1500 bucks for my last Guard army I am not disposed to be sympathetic to those who whine because they have to buy an extra box set or two of Cadians. If you hate it, go back to Space Marines.

First, i own around 400 Guardsmen, two dozen tanks and 3 super heavies myself, i am really not in the situation to spend more money if guardsmen will drop to 4 points/model.
What i want to say is, saying someone is whining because he needs more men when pointdrop will happen is just, rude and unpolite.
Doesn´t keep the discussion on a serious level.

I am totally against such a huge pricedrop on guardsmen. I would eventually talk against 5 pts./model, but could live with it.

Problems are different than spending more bucks on models.
The problem is, that you cannot deploy and play such a bunch of models on a standard table effectively. Most units will stay out of cover, and therefore will be removed as casualities in the very beginning of the game. They will not stay long enough to compensate the additional money spent and will NOT bring out their potential.
Other thing is, having 200 guardsmen packed together is a massacre for every elite cc unit attacking, killing a squad per cc phase, hopping to the next one even when rolled 2´´ for massacre move.
And with the introduction of the meatshield in 5th again, i will be left with half my army not able to fire because no LOS, so i have a bunch more guards, with the same firepower as before, with less cover, more vunerability to cc attacks.

Also this will not even the odds for the guard. It is not dealing with all these problems we have around the dex. Every problem seen as single is just a small one, where one can live with. But alltogether they do the trick of making the guard less competitive. And here GW must take the tour to improve guard. Fix the small problems.

- more flexible Platoon Organisation (e.g. 1 Command 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-1 Special weapon sqquad 0-2 heavy weapon squads, maximum of 5 squads per platoon)

- advisors can be attached everywheren, lower base costs

- chimera, side armor 11 and/or price drop by 5-10

- introduce real snipers

- give stormtroopers a 12´´ S3 DS5 Storm 3 Hellgun, to line out their role as short range firefight storm units.

- introduce exterminator and vanquisher russ variants again

- improve nade launcher , maybe storm 2

- make frag nades available for rough riders, introduce new models for them

- change some doctrines, to make them useable (e.g. die hards: free lasgun swap with laspistol/cc)

- maybe introduce valkyirie as transport available with the drop troop or mechanised doctrin

- give the standardsquad free veteran sergeant, free vox, free frag nades and the option for a second special weapon if not having a heavy one, give option of one medic per squad, stay at costs of 6pts/model

Problem is not solved with a brainless pricedrop of the basic guardsmen!

Latro_
06-02-2008, 11:13
4pts each, yea right I really cant see that happening. 5, at the most. Remember guard pts cost isnt so high because of how good they are (they're some of the worst troops in the game) its because of how the list meshes together with the other options.

An across the board changing of how much humans cost would be a nightmare, 3pt conscripts? lol what would you do with storm troopers etc...
Upsets the scales no end... however....

I would think that if anything the cost of weapon upgrades would drop down almost in half but be limted per platoon. e.g. one lascannon/plasma gun per platoon to stop spam. This would solve alot of problems with the cost of infantry.

Baltar
06-02-2008, 11:18
4pts each, yea right I really cant see that happening. 5, at the most. Remember guard pts cost isnt so high because of how good they are (they're some of the worst troops in the game) its because of how the list meshes together with the other options.

Designing lists in that way punishes those who choose not to use units that the other choices are balanced for.


I would think that if anything the cost of weapon upgrades would drop down almost in half but be limted per platoon. e.g. one lascannon/plasma gun per platoon to stop spam. This would solve alot of problems with the cost of infantry.

That is an unspeakably bad idea.


An across the board changing of how much humans cost would be a nightmare, 3pt conscripts? lol what would you do with storm troopers etc...
Upsets the scales no end... however....

How would it be a nightmare? I would think with 4 pt Guardsmen, conscripts would probably disappear. Storm troopers can take a pts drop of 1 or 2 pts - that was going to happen anyway.

Baltar
06-02-2008, 11:22
Problem is not solved with a brainless pricedrop of the basic guardsmen!

As has been stated at least 97 Billion times (and ignored), the purpose in dropping the basic guardsman's price would not be so that you could buy hundreds more guardsmen, but so that you could buy more advisors, tanks, wargear, etc.

As is stands, Guardsmen are a useless points sink.

As I see it, all Guardsmen are are ablative wounds for special and heavy weapons who rarely kill anything.

That is why they should be 4 pts, so that you spend more on the stuff you want and less on the jobbers who die to protect what you really want.

But people can't look at it that way. They automatically say "OMGZORZ!111! Four point guardsmen!!11!! da only thing you can buy is teh guardsman now! omgzorz11!!

There is no reason at all we can't make all the changes to the advisors, the chimera, the Leman RUss, etc etc and still have 4 pt Guardsmen. This isn't an either/or situation.

Zanzibarthefirst
06-02-2008, 11:29
Not just the Vraks list, but all Forge World IG lists would have to be retooled. Especially the way overpriced D-99.

however, i doubt that that will ever happen, oh my poor d-99. If things get really bad i might just use codex:IG or relegate them to the inquistion (which they are really)

Latro_
06-02-2008, 11:32
Designing lists in that way punishes those who choose not to use units that the other choices are balanced for.

So in other words making your own non balanced lists.
This is the case with every army GW do, There is no set points schema they work from based on a mathimatical formula based on model stats etc. This is how they design for 40k.


That is an unspeakably bad idea.
How so?
It would reduce the cost of normal infantry by a significant number, keep everything on an even level with other human based units and avoid a las/plas spam army of 3rd ed

Baltar
06-02-2008, 11:36
So in other words making your own non balanced lists.
This is the case with every army GW do, There is no set points schema they work from based on a mathimatical formula based on model stats etc. This is how they design for 40k.

Yes, but then the question becomes exactly what are 6 pt Guardsmen balanced against? Everything else in the army is overpriced too, with the exception of Veterans and rough riders.

Nobody thinks that Guardsmen should be overpriced just to keep conscripts, BTW, I don't know where this idea is coming from.

Its also ridiculous to assume that every codex is meant to be played a certain way, and then punish anyone who tries to make the list work in a different way.



How so?
It would reduce the cost of normal infantry by a significant number, keep everything on an even level with other human based units and avoid a las/plas spam army of 3rd ed

Firstly, because this isn't a Space Marine army. Las/Plas has never made the Guard unbalanced or cheesy. Drop Troop spam is the only cheesy Guard list.

Secondly, because those weapons are designed for a specific purpose - to fight MEQs. They are balanced because they suck against Hordes. Horde armies are coming back into fashion.

We don't need artificial limits to cripple the Guard against MEQs, we need the metagame to reward the use of situation appropriate weaponry.

Restricting Plasma in a Guard army would mean that Space Marines would rape them, laughing and prancing all the way.

Bunnahabhain
06-02-2008, 12:00
6pts is far too much.
4pts is probably too cheap
5pts, with some useful extras, ie voxes and close order drill, is sensible.

Conscripts at 3pts each, without the extras.

Special and heavy weapons need to be balanced. Plasma is worth 10pts ,meltas are just about worth it, and grenade launchers could be worth it, with either AP3 kraks, or assualt 2. Flamers are next to useless for most guard units, as any unit close enough to use them is about to die, and should be priced as such.
A way to take a second special weapon instead of a heavy is needed, to give mobile firepower.

Heavy weapons. Heavy bolters and missile launchers are fine as they are, but a Guard lascannon is not worth 25pts.

Mortars need work. They're not currently worth their cost, nor the taking up the space for a better heavy weapon. If the no partials for blasts rule is true, that will help, but they may well need S5, or some other boost.

shabbadoo
06-02-2008, 12:05
The only way we see 4 point IG is if their Leadership abilities get ripped to shreds(i.e. they actually will have a chance of breaking and running). At 5 pts. IG compare well in cost effectiveness to the new Orks and crap-o-gaunts. At 4 points IG need to lose something, and that would likely be some the crazy IG Leadership abilities they currently have acess to. Conscripts will likely be removed from the codex altogether.

Baltar
06-02-2008, 12:10
6pts is far too much.
4pts is probably too cheap
5pts, with some useful extras, ie voxes and close order drill, is sensible.

Making a Guard army 5 pts. with free upgrades really just means forcing people, who may not have wanted to, to pay for those upgrades.

Also, in case some people haven't noticed, Close Order Drill is FREE NOW, and that still doesn't make the Guardsman balanced.

Billpete002
06-02-2008, 12:42
As I'm collecting FW Death Korps I can see two possible problems with this, firstly, it's going to pretty much obsolete the current DK list by making the gaurdsmen even more horribly overpriced, secondly, if using the regular guard list or if they update the DK list, how many £3.20 each resin guardsmen!

but your army will still have special doctrines while the new IG will not. This would make up for those point cost differences.

Also, who knows FW might put a FAQ/Rules Revision thing (Apocalypse bookesque') and make them 4 points or such.

Vaktathi
06-02-2008, 12:56
As I'm collecting FW Death Korps I can see two possible problems with this, firstly, it's going to pretty much obsolete the current DK list by making the gaurdsmen even more horribly overpriced, secondly, if using the regular guard list or if they update the DK list, how many £3.20 each resin guardsmen!

Well, the Krieg list is already pretty terrible, not much can be done about that. However, just because the infantry get cheaper pts-wise doesn't mean you need to pack in more of them. It means you buy more tanks, upgrades, weapons and abilities.




To me Guardsmen at 4pts probably wouldn't be that unbalanced considering that even at 3-1 they still fail to match the shooting of most of their opponents (Dire Avengers, Marines, Fire Warriors, Necrons, etc) that don't cost 3x as much and generally have better Ld and Saves and other stats and equipment, and definitley won't beat most of them in CC. The problem is that the metagame just doesn't do well with Guardsmen, they are just so overwhelmingly inferior to everything else that costing them is difficult. Personally I think Grots are overpriced at 3pts each, especially since they lost some of their more useful abilities in the new codex.

The big thing is that if Guardsmen do become 4pts each, the codex needs to emphasize taking upgrades over more guardsmen, and allow for other types of armies as well such as Stormtrooper armies.

chiaroscuros
06-02-2008, 13:50
before you freak out about 4pt guards, lets take a look at what was said about 6pt orks.

"OMG, you can buy 180 orks for 1080 points and have 920 points left over for non-troop slots, wargear and vehicles, OMG!!!"

the reality is that by the time you buy the nobs, powerfists, assault weapons, etc... you are lucky to get more than 100 regular orks in a list (with another 20-30 other ork models). if you start to get the more expensive extras, you start decreasing that further... the extreme would be a mek army stuffed with dreads, killa kans and meganobs and has about 40 models.

the same thing will be true with guard. by the time you improve their morale, add weapons and equip the sargaent, you won't be getting 300-400 guard troops, you will end up with 150-200ish. While this is an improvement, it isn't the sky falling.

you will just have to wait for the codex.

Then you can see ALL the math...

Ianos
06-02-2008, 14:26
Oh I don't think Guardians are all that great of a unit at all, especially when dealing with MEQ's and the like, but when looking at them compared with Guardsmen they aren't that overpriced. That's the problem, the standard Guardsmen is just that weak.


The weak guardsman with the weapon that has double range to the guardian one. The guardsman who can have both a heavy and a special in the squad, who can have a 3+ cover save infiltrate or drop from the sky. Who's morale can be made to unbreakable and is backed up by the most deadly ordnance in the game capable of destroying entire marine and terminator squads in one volley. Oh poor guardsman how can you fight the guardian who has to come into your face running like madman to have any chance surviving, while you just sit there in cover shooting people and tanks down?

leo_neil316
06-02-2008, 14:44
Oh the poor guardian who can have far better leadership.

And a move and fire heavy weapon.

And a coversave in the open.

And ignores the guardsmans armour.

And has better stats.

Who is backed up by people who give re-rolls to hit, wound and make saves.

Close combat troops who can kill entire squads of anything free from retaliation.

Individual space elves who can wipe out entire squads of guardsmen who can't even see them.

Indestructable tanks.

Jetbikes.

Even more accurate and just as powerful ordanance.

The toughest monsters in the game.

And sentinals, which get better guns, and can have two of them, and the guns cost less, and they get more attacks in close combat, and they have higher BS and they cost less.

Oh poor guardian for some reason running across the field instead of sitting in cover -guarding things like your name implies- and letting the infitrating people in power armour do the running. Or the deepstriking guys with the ordanance. Or the clowns in the annoying tanks.

Incidently, my guard army has less than a hundred troops in it. It's a pain in the ass fitting it in it's deployment. Especially if I get unlucky and end up playing clense and the other guy goes first and sticks something as far forward as it can go.

50pts with squad vox and a special weapon, which can be switched for other special weapons some of which costing more (like say, start with flamer, may switch for grenade launcher for free or melta gun at +5 points, plasma gun at +10 points) sounds good to me.

Marneus Calgar
06-02-2008, 14:54
6pts is far too much.
4pts is probably too cheap
5pts, with some useful extras, ie voxes and close order drill, is sensible.

Conscripts at 3pts each, without the extras.

Special and heavy weapons need to be balanced. Plasma is worth 10pts ,meltas are just about worth it, and grenade launchers could be worth it, with either AP3 kraks, or assualt 2. Flamers are next to useless for most guard units, as any unit close enough to use them is about to die, and should be priced as such.
A way to take a second special weapon instead of a heavy is needed, to give mobile firepower.

Heavy weapons. Heavy bolters and missile launchers are fine as they are, but a Guard lascannon is not worth 25pts.

Mortars need work. They're not currently worth their cost, nor the taking up the space for a better heavy weapon. If the no partials for blasts rule is true, that will help, but they may well need S5, or some other boost.


I agree with most of your points, except the S5 mortars. Maybe they can work like the Eldar Fire Prisim. If you have two squads of mortars firing at the same target, they can use the ord. blast, fire twice, OR force a pinning tests at -1 or -2 leadership.

By the way, gratz on your 2000 post!

Vaktathi
06-02-2008, 14:55
The weak guardsman with the weapon that has double range to the guardian one. yes, but only gets one shot at that longer range and only if he didnt move and doesn't have Fleet to cover the extra ground.


The guardsman who can have both a heavy and a special in the squad, who can have a 3+ cover save infiltrate or drop from the sky. Yes, but you pay for all that as well, except for the Deep Strike, which I will be the first to say isn't quite right, but means they also probably are going to have a lifespan of about half a shooting phase. They also shooting a heavy weapon at that point. The Guardians can get a constant 5+ cover save or a reroll of failed morale tests, without having to take a psychic test either.


Who's morale can be made to unbreakable Umm, not really. You can get it up there yes, but they will still break, and aren't that hard to kill anyway, and you still pay for that Ld ability, and thats assuming the 5man command squad is in range and alive. And the Guardians can have access to a constant 5+ cover save and better Ld base (meaning they have about the same Ld as with an officer) Or they can have Embolden and reroll their failed morale tests.

Lets not forget there is also always Farseer powers for that wonderful rerolling of failed cover saves from Conceal.


and is backed up by the most deadly ordnance in the game capable of destroying entire marine and terminator squads in one volley. Yes, but its misses more than it actually inflicts casualties and are relatively easy to keep from shooting, and are very poor anti-tank weapons. I don't see why having access to 3 ordnance weapons is special, every marine army can do it as well, hell Chaos has both battlecannons and Demolisher cannons. I honestly don't think I've ever killed an entire squad of marines with an ordnance shot, I think the best I've ever done was 5 or 6. Even a minimal spread is enough to negate alot of the Ordnance's power.

Let us compare this to the Eldar tanks shall we? The infamous Falcon and the Fire Prism. The arguments regarding the falcon are already well known. The Fire Prism is on par or superior to the Leman Russ in almost every way.

Against tanks its a better platform (BS4 S9 versus at best a BS3 lascannon), against MEQ's its about equal (small blast BS4 versus scattering Ordnance), against Terminator's its better (AP2 baby) against 4+sv and GEQ units its about the same if the Russ is kitted out with 3 HB's (BS4 large blast, or possibly BS4 large blast +Shuriken Cannon versus 3 BS3 HB's), the Prism is far faster and maneuverable, the Prism will also survive alot longer thanks to SMF+Holofields, and yet even further if it also has Vectored Engines.

It's also nigh impossible to hurt with CC attacks (oh look I have meltabombs or a Daemon Prince! I hit on a 6 and can still only glance! versus the Russ where you can either autohit or usually at worst hit on a 4+ and penetrate it) And it gets all that for the same cost as a Russ with Lascannon+Dozerblade (or 3 HB's + Dozerblade).

The Fire Prism can also link shots with other fire prisms to become more powerful and more accurate without exposing all of them to enemy fire. It may be more vulnerable to glancing hits from the front arc but thats about it and it will still take more shots to put down.


Oh poor guardsman how can you fight the guardian who has to come into your face running like madman to have any chance surviving, while you just sit there in cover shooting people and tanks down? Look, if you are going to bring the rest of the IG army into this, you need to bring the rest of the Eldar army as well, and I don't think it's going to swing in the IG's favor either, the Eldar army is probably the most powerful book out there right now. I thought I explicitely stated in my post that I didn't think Guardians were the greatest unit in the world (I much prefer Dire Avengers) but they do have alot of strengths compared to an IG squad. Being able to march forward with a constant cover save and fire a heavy weapon and move or fleet, and can still have 2 melta's or flamers or 2x CCW's, and still have a higher Init than guardsmen isn't *terrible*.

You make it seem like a squad of Guardsmen can lay down a torrent of fire than nothing can cross while your poor Guardians die in droves as soon as they get into sight, which simply isn't the case. Being able to walk forward with a constant cover save and a scatterlaser firing as they move isn't that bad compared to a basic IG squad.]

TL;DR, the last army to be whining about IG is Eldar. Get over it.

C_Noisy
06-02-2008, 15:13
I can't help it...but ....LOL
great post vaktathi

on the subject.4 points is low!5 is great.about the 4th heavy support slot i am not that excited.but that's me cause i only use 2.but giving by default 1 extra slot in the foc is wrong.it's like saying give the x army an extra fast attack choise.don't know.

ratfusion
06-02-2008, 15:19
If you want to stop las / plas spam, 4 pt guardsmen with cheaper special weapons is exactly what is needed.

Competitive horde armies that show up in tournaments will force competitive lists to take special weapons to deal with hordes, or be overwhelmed. The army that brings all las/plas will get owned by a competitive horde, as you might as well have taken more bolter troops, as they're almost as effective vs guardsmen as las /plas.

Guardsmen actually should probably be even cheaper, but eventually theres no room left on the table.

It does sound like 5th edition is further nerfing shooty armies, so I think guardsmen will still be screwed with 4pt guardsmen and everything in the codex cheaper.

starlight
06-02-2008, 15:37
*skips to the end*

The reason IG went from 5pts in the 3rd Ed Rulebook to 6pts in the 3rd and 4th Ed Codexes was simply because the wall of Lascannon/Plasmagun death was near impossible to beat. *That's* where the terms Shooty Army of Doom/Shooty Army from Heck/Gunline/etc first became popularised in 40K. The sheer number of anti-MEq weapons on the table in the hands of a horde of Guardsmen convinced GW to bump the basic IG trooper to 6pts. As it is, a solid Gunline Horde of IG with nothing but Infantry is *still* a formidable opponent as long as it doesn't have to move.

I do *not* see a drop to 4pts any time soon. 5pts? Perhaps as part of a complete overhaul including some increases in the cost of supposedly rare weapons like Plasma, but 4pts? Nope, I'm voting against that one...

ratfusion
06-02-2008, 15:44
If you play guard you realize that while the massive line of squads with heavy weapons looks impressive, it doesn't do that much if you're in close combat by turn 2. Besides, half of them miss.

Kyuubi Brat
06-02-2008, 15:51
If you want to stop las / plas spam, 4 pt guardsmen with cheaper special weapons is exactly what is needed.

Competitive horde armies that show up in tournaments will force competitive lists to take special weapons to deal with hordes, or be overwhelmed. The army that brings all las/plas will get owned by a competitive horde, as you might as well have taken more bolter troops, as they're almost as effective vs guardsmen as las /plas.

Guardsmen actually should probably be even cheaper, but eventually theres no room left on the table.

It does sound like 5th edition is further nerfing shooty armies, so I think guardsmen will still be screwed with 4pt guardsmen and everything in the codex cheaper.

The problem is. Newbies wont start guard if they have to buy, model and paint hundreds of models. "Small games" with guard will be so ridiculously unwieldy and drawn out. Having more of something (especially in 5th edition) won't make your army much more effective.

Having very cheap and numerous guard infantry may be fluffy but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Vaktathi
06-02-2008, 15:59
The problem is. Newbies wont start guard if they have to buy, model and paint hundreds of models. "Small games" with guard will be so ridiculously unwieldy and drawn out. Having more of something (especially in 5th edition) won't make your army much more effective.

Having very cheap and numerous guard infantry may be fluffy but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Just because the guardsmen are cheap doesn't mean people will be throwing down more of them. If basic guardsmen get cheaper you'll see more tanks, stormtroopers, RR's, sentinels, and officer/sergeant upgrades probably, not more guardsmen.



The reason IG went from 5pts in the 3rd Ed Rulebook to 6pts in the 3rd and 4th Ed Codexes was simply because the wall of Lascannon/Plasmagun death was near impossible to beat. *That's* where the terms Shooty Army of Doom/Shooty Army from Heck/Gunline/etc first became popularised in 40K. The sheer number of anti-MEq weapons on the table in the hands of a horde of Guardsmen convinced GW to bump the basic IG trooper to 6pts. As it is, a solid Gunline Horde of IG with nothing but Infantry is *still* a formidable opponent as long as it doesn't have to move. The problem with an army like that is it really only works well in Seek and Destroy, and not much else, and is hideously vulnerable to CC. Yes, it works well against Marines in Seek and Destroy, not so much against Mech Eldar in Recon. The other problem is that Guardsmen pay out the nose for heavy weapons that are less accurate and have a lower survival rate (and may be more likely to kill their bearer) when compared with those Marines.

I think simply keeping Seek and Destroy to a minimum is the best way to counteract the las/plas spam, not making everything more expensive.

W0lf
06-02-2008, 16:01
sounds like a clever sales technique.

One day at GW HQ...

'Fancy selling more Guardsmen guys?'
'Sure.. but how?'
'Make them 50% cheaper then people have to buy double the amount!'
'No. 50%.. people will suspect things.. make it 33%'
'Done. GW isnt out of smart ideas yet!'

Badger
06-02-2008, 16:13
tststs,
guys cmon! most of your arguments are based on 3/4th edition experience.
IF there is a 4pts guardmen to come then its a 5th edition guardsmen!
some allready said so, you cant shoot with all your weapons at the same time/target if every modell blocks line of sight!
and this "AWESOME!!111" and totally "unfair" ld the 4th edition guard gets means nothing in 5ths new closecombatresolution (every wound you make -1ld to the enemy)

and dont get me started about "run", non entangled marines from cheapo rhinos, or the about 10 other disadvantages guard will face when 5th edition hits the shelves (and its the same as the "leakoPDF")!

imo 4pts are about right, depends on upgruadecosts (and those we dont know!)

and as others have allready said, conscripts will probably go the way of the dodo( äh Squat).

greetings Badger

Bloodknight
06-02-2008, 17:01
@Starlight: to add to your post:
at that time (3rd edition BBB list - the first 3rd edition codex did not allow that much anymore) IG payed 5 points for a plasma gun, could screen their command squads which could take 4 plasma guns;
and a troops choice in an SAFH consisted of one command squad with 4 plasma plus one trooper squad (the two squads minimum was imposed later, too, in addition to the points rise in guardsmen and their guns) with lasplas for a total 125 points - the troops squad screened the command squad which had comparably more firepower.

Today you don't even get one troops squad with lasplas plus a naked command squad for that price.
I think they have overdone it, though.
The minimum of 2 squads makes sense - no problem, but upping the cost of the soldiers and the guns was maybe too much.
Also, IG could take preachers with a powerfist from the imperial agents list for a whole 20 points which were not made useless by the advisor rules. They were squad characters who could join any unit at the beginning of the game and added some good punch to the units. I used one with my Ogryns all the time.

the_red_guard
06-02-2008, 17:55
wow this is the first ive heard of a point drop this...extreme 0_o, although an extra heavy weapon would be nice, would bee a good option for static firepower armies

Goose
06-02-2008, 18:01
Just perusing the rumor mill. I'm hearing at my FLGS that guard will be 4 points each, with an extra heavy support choice. Have any of you heard the same?

I hope its 4 pts with a rule to allow them to shoot through each other in 5th edition and shoot into close combats. Also a without numbers rule like the Tyranids have. That would be good.

marneus54
06-02-2008, 18:03
I hope its 4 pts with a rule to allow them to shoot through each other in 5th edition and shoot into close combats. Also a without numbers rule like the Tyranids have. That would be good.

Hope they do make a close combat shooting rule, just so they take a look at shotguns and update tyhem a bit.

Tensor
06-02-2008, 19:14
Why do people assume conscripts will go? conscripts / whiteshields have been in the guard list since the RT list in WD back in the day.

Ghal Maraz
06-02-2008, 19:15
I hope its 4 pts with a rule to allow them to shoot through each other in 5th edition and shoot into close combats. Also a without numbers rule like the Tyranids have. That would be good.

That's sarcasm, right?

And the debate Guardsmen-Guardians.

Guardians should cost more than Guardsmen, and that's granted for sure.
But, I still think that Guardians are a bit (please notice: a bit) overpriced.

First and foremost for that old reason of a combination of paper-thin armour with a gun with no range. Yes, the squad has a move and fire heavy weapon: but the rest of the squad doesn't shoot! If you fleet, the (now mandatory) heavy weapon don't shoot anymore! Yes, they can have cover save while in the open: but they have to pay for it! And that cover save is granted by a single model... And, because we are talking of 5th ed. environment, the supposed bonus of Fleet isn't a bonus anymore... Who wants to assault with shuricats Guardians? So, why Guardians should have to pay for the Fleet ability (even Fleet is supposed to be considered in their points cost), while every other trooper can run at no cost? And, I know that I must envision tha army as a whole, thus considering that Guardians are the cheapest choice in the army (and this too is debatable, taking in account the almost mandatory "option" of the Warlock), but I still say: I would really, really prefer to pay 10 points for "elite" Guardians than having to see what Guardians are now.

So, I say: Guardsmen are overpriced and I really welcome a points drop for them (in a good rethinking of the strenghts and weaknesses of the IG army), but IMHO even Guardians could have done with a small reduction...

starlight
06-02-2008, 19:18
On that note, it'll be interesting to see if every unit that currently has Fleet gets either a points drop or some new advantage...

marneus54
06-02-2008, 19:19
No joke there I think shotguns should be str 6 ap 2 in close combat or even if you fire at some one within 6 inches. But anyway, I think this drop is gonna change the way I look at guard for a long time.

Colonel Simon
06-02-2008, 19:40
As a Guard player myself I think that the price for the guardsman should be 5 points. 4 points is just too cheap.

Axel
06-02-2008, 19:57
5 points is imho still a bit stuff, as compared to almost all other standard units. Go with four and drop armour and grenades. If you want them, buy them back.

Guardsmen are next to useless except as meatshields. Making them cheap means more are used. The only quality that you get this way is that the opponent needs to kill more men, and perhaps you have some guardsmen left at the end of killing...

Another heavy weapon is imho not necessary for a squad. If you want lots of heavy weapons there are special squads to offer these. What I would love is the option to take a second special weapon if no heavy weapon is taken - or make this either one heavy or two special, not both.

Kroot Lord
06-02-2008, 20:05
Seems goofy to me.

1 HQ choice- 40 points
3 Troop choices, 60 models each + command squads

Now you have 120 points left for heavy weapons.

Marshal2Crusaders
06-02-2008, 21:18
As someone pointed out though that army wont be able to see through itself.

Wargamejunkie
06-02-2008, 21:54
Personally I would love to see the 4 point gaurdsmen. I enjoy nothing more than swarming enemies with flashlights and bodies.

But from reading the previous pages and seeing how the new army-books are going I would expect that the troops would start out at 3 (conscripts) with the option to upgrade on a per model basis all the abilities granted by the doctrines.

This way we get the flexibility of the old plus the standardization of the new codexes.

Drop the price of advisors and some other stuff and all of a sudden we have a competitive codex which is still allows people to use all their armies from before.


But ofcourse this is just my opinion and in no way reflects reality.

intellectawe
06-02-2008, 22:05
Extra heavy support choice? Never gonna happen. Therefore I declare this rumor to be bunk.

Um.... Iron Warriors had this for years.

And can't you take a marine trait for an extra heavy?

Joewrightgm
06-02-2008, 22:07
no, but you can take a trait to make Devestators Elites.

zoodog
06-02-2008, 22:20
Um.... Iron Warriors had this for years.

And can't you take a marine trait for an extra heavy?

The Iron Warriors were often used as one of the cheapest armies seen, Marines can take a disadvantage which loses them some slots and an advantage which move a normal heavy to the elite section

Darn was beaten to the puch, shouldn't have put in the lower part

I was under the impression that 5th was going to make troop choices your primary scorers thus minimizing on them to take other units wouldn't be the best ideas. But if they keep the normal platoon structure as is at 4pts they could easily flood the board with scoring units, and frankly having played vs infantry guard on alpha missions they can do this almost to much already.

Glabro
06-02-2008, 22:31
In regards to the above post I largely agree but if anyone says that Guardians are anything but overpriced and crap then I'm going to have to disagree with them.

Agreed. What about when everyone has Run, and the only advantage the Guardians have is that they'll be able to assault after Running? Is that still worth 8 points, compared to, say, an Ork shoota at 6 pts?

In the new rules, Guardians should actually be cheaper than Shoota Boyz, not the other way round.

The Dude
06-02-2008, 22:35
No joke there I think shotguns should be str 6 ap 2 in close combat

Firing a shotgun in the middle of a swirling melee where friend and foe are mere inches apart? :confused::wtf::eyebrows:

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
06-02-2008, 22:55
As a Guard player myself I think that the price for the guardsman should be 5 points. 4 points is just too cheap.

seconded - and plasma should cost more[remember new overheat rules]

Glabro
06-02-2008, 22:57
*skips to the end*

The reason IG went from 5pts in the 3rd Ed Rulebook to 6pts in the 3rd and 4th Ed Codexes was simply because the wall of Lascannon/Plasmagun death was near impossible to beat. *That's* where the terms Shooty Army of Doom/Shooty Army from Heck/Gunline/etc first became popularised in 40K. The sheer number of anti-MEq weapons on the table in the hands of a horde of Guardsmen convinced GW to bump the basic IG trooper to 6pts. As it is, a solid Gunline Horde of IG with nothing but Infantry is *still* a formidable opponent as long as it doesn't have to move.


You conveniently don't mention the 5 pt plasma guns and 15 point (by memory) lascannons coupled with the 5 pt price was what made the SIGAF.
Total las-plas cost: 70

Maybe, just maybe, 5 point guardsmen with 15 point plasma guns and 20 point lascannons would be fine?
Total las-plas cost: 85.

That'd be a 10 point drop, and you'll have choices to equip your squads with something other than las-plas, too.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
06-02-2008, 23:01
You conveniently don't mention the 6 pt plasma guns and 15 point lascannons coupled with the 5 pt price was what made the SIGAF.
Total las-plas cost: 71

Maybe, just maybe, 5 point guardsmen with 15 point plasma guns and 20 point lascannons would be fine?
Total las-plas cost: 85.

That'd be a 10 point drop, and you'll have choices to equip your squads with something other than las-plas, too.

lascannon still would be no brainer - 20 points is too few for such squad. 25 is minimum

30 would be fair.

so 5 pts guardsman + pg 15 + lc 25/30 = 90/95 - about fine for such amount of firepower - and make otehr options useful

i hope they introduce heavy stubber as special weapon ;)

Glabro
06-02-2008, 23:27
Cool. Agreed, tactical squads nowadays need to be 10-strong to field cheap lascannons.

Well, with a 25-30 point lascannons, a basic squad price of 45 can also be considered.

The Dude
06-02-2008, 23:46
It also allows you to make cheap "storm" squads with nothing but a Flamer and Grenades, and I think would help diversify the weapons we see on the field.

Glabro
07-02-2008, 00:03
Yep. If they will support warrior weapons this time around, they'll make them more reasonable in cost, too. A free swap to warrior weapons but losing heavy weapon options sound good.

starlight
07-02-2008, 00:10
Given what I've heard about 5th Ed, I think I'll be leaning towards each Squad with a Grenade Launcher. Good range for a general Squad, decent firepower, new Blast rules, always mobile... I'm glad most of my IG Infantry Squads are ML/GL. :)

Now if I could just get two....:angel:

The Dude
07-02-2008, 00:17
Given what I've heard about 5th Ed, I think I'll be leaning towards each Squad with a Grenade Launcher. Good range for a general Squad, decent firepower, new Blast rules, always mobile... I'm glad most of my IG Infantry Squads are ML/GL. :)

Without a doubt the GL rocks. I would like to have some cheap "over the sides" type squads to tie down approaching assaulters. Then if some of your ML or GL shots happen to scatter into combat, well... :angel:

Shield of Freedom
07-02-2008, 03:22
yeah my platoons generally have three squads each, and my ratio is about 2-1 Grenade launchers to plasma guns...

Even now Grenade launchers are not that bad, giving the krak grendade an AP3 or assault 2 would make it the premier special weapon for the IG infantry.

Marneus Calgar
07-02-2008, 03:33
As it should be, and the plasma's should be reserved for the elite type of troops. Note that I do not mean that plasma's should not be in regular troops, it's that it should not be the majority.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-02-2008, 03:36
They are that bad at 2 pts less than a plasma gun and marginal killing power vs MEQs which makes them inadequate in an all-comers army list. Although the new scatter rules will be a boon and we can assume they get either a price drop or a stat adjustment when the new codex is done which should make them more worthwhile.

Baltar
07-02-2008, 04:47
In order to make Warrior Weapons worth it, it needs to be applicable to only a select number of squads (i.e. NOT "everyone who can have it has to have it") and it should be free.

I could then see buying a few skirmishing CC squads.

Baltar
07-02-2008, 04:55
Let me boil this thread down:

People who play Guard: "This is a great idea. This way more pts can be spent on upgrades, tanks, wargear, and advisors."

People who don't play Guard: OMGZORZ TEH SKY IS TEH FALLING! FEUR POINT GUARDSMEN ROXXOR MY SOXXOR! HIDE TEH WIMMINS AND TEH CHILLNZ!

starlight
07-02-2008, 04:57
Well put.:p

Best laugh I've had in hours.:)

Edit: To remain on topic;) I don't have a single Plasma weapon in my IG army. Part of the background is that it's a vanilla *military* outfit. GL/ML/AutoCan/etc. No fancy rare Plasma nonsense, just good old fashioned grunts with things that go boom. Lots of guys, some with Chimeras, a few Sentinels and pair of Hellhounds. So maybe I'm a bit biased when I like the way my army will benefit from the rumoured new rules.:)

marneus54
07-02-2008, 05:01
@Baltar: Thats how I'm veiwing it :cries:

Cuthullu
07-02-2008, 07:05
Let me boil this thread down:

People who play Guard: "This is a great idea. This way more pts can be spent on upgrades, tanks, wargear, and advisors."

People who don't play Guard: OMGZORZ TEH SKY IS TEH FALLING! FEUR POINT GUARDSMEN ROXXOR MY SOXXOR! HIDE TEH WIMMINS AND TEH CHILLNZ!

You missed a thing:

People who play guard, but are able to think around the corner:
4pts guard no, what about this? [insert the long list of good improvements collected by experienced guard players]

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-02-2008, 07:13
Is it wrong that I lol'ed?

Baltar
07-02-2008, 07:22
You missed a thing:

People who play guard, but are able to think around the corner:
4pts guard no, what about this? [insert the long list of good improvements collected by experienced guard players]

How about 4 pt Guards AND the long list of good improvements collected by experienced Guard players? When was it stated that this was an either or situation? Did anyone actually believe GW was just going to take the old codex, scribble over the six, write in a 4, and then say "Ahhh, finished!"

static grass
07-02-2008, 08:20
If Pete Haines was still there then maybe...

Personally I am thinking that 45 points a squad. That way a conscript force will basically be naked squads.

If they want to get rid of the doctrines then including stuff like the option to swap their maglites for a pistol and pointy sticky for no extra points could replace warrior weapons. Removing the restriction that Armoured fist squads are 1 for a platoon would deal with mechanized.

I think the guard codex has the most potential to be the coolest dex by far but the last codex really just failed to deliever, it could have been so much more.

Yamagon
07-02-2008, 08:32
If they want to get rid of the doctrines then including stuff like the option to swap their maglites for a pistol and pointy sticky for no extra points could replace warrior weapons. Removing the restriction that Armoured fist squads are 1 for a platoon would deal with mechanized.

But what about prefered enemy and similar specialist things like that? I doubt it if GW decides to allow EVERY option, and if they dont have it, they will have alot of unhappy gamers that will just to deal with it, and either give up on guard or change their playing style.

5pt Guard i believe is a rational change, coz it allows instead of 2 naked squads, 2 semi-naked squads with basic upgrades (keep in mind this would only be rational if GW decides to throw all sense of reason out the window and then decide to reduce the price of ur standard guardsmen)

inquisitor solarris
07-02-2008, 09:35
4PT GUARDS!?! Sweet would love it (if true then it's a good thing i've started guard :D) however not sure weather the extra heavy support would be true or not sounds a bit like the former iron warriors rule from the old chaos codex.

JasoKuuhl
07-02-2008, 09:52
Good god even as a Guard Player I think that four points is waaaayy to cheap.I´m seeing 250 models in 1500 (which would cost 1000 Points) + some fancy extras like 3 Leman Russes and Heavy Weapons.
Come on guys this is just insane.
An Assault Squad costs about 200 points. At 4 points a guardman I could just keep feeding him with more basic guards during the whole game :eek:.
I could feed them 50 guards during the game and then its just a draw. But 50 guards will also kill some marines so the guard player would win nevertheless.
Its not so much that they can easily kill wraithlords, Demon princes, tooled up librarians,... but they can swap them even now with conscripts, and having an hq nearby its hard to break 30 recruits with a morale of 9.

And to the idea of having conscripts compared to grots. Conscripts are normal IG just BS is worse and morale as well, they own grots in every other stat.

Yes the basic guardman is weak right now but you have to think at another level. not 250 points of Guard against 250 points of xy. At that level IG doesn´t shine. 2 Heavy Bolters a Lascannon and 2 Plasmaguns aren´t impressive.
But their killyness improves drastically the more points are played. 10 Heavy Bolters, 5 Lascannons and 10 Plasmaguns are impressive at 1250. And it gets worse the more points you give Guard.

I know that people would like to see it, yes me too, but think about the guys who would abuse this. I don´t wanna play a guy who swaps me with 400 models with some HQ´s in his horde providing morale 9 bubbles to everybody.
It´s hard to kill 200 models, but 400 :eyebrows:.

What I would like to see though:

´Chimeras 10 points cheaper
stormtroopers at least 1 point cheaper or their weapons storm 3 or strength 4
Sentinels 10 poinst cheaper
more Heavy support choices (Exterminator, vanquisher, griffon, heavy mortars, ...)
Basic guardman at most 1 point cheaper, or the range of the lasgun increased to 30. I could also imagine making it a storm weapon when in 6" to the enemy and stay at 6 points
Give Ogrins toghness 5 and on lp less, and give them a command ogryn that can carry a powerfist so they can really be a squad that holds itself in CC
Some real snipers :-)
normally i would write something for mortars but due to 5th edition rules the template will be fixed anyway so they are fine
rough riders should have their lances not used up in the first charge but keep it
advisors can be attached to a squad I choose, and if the basic cost of guardsman goes down one point keep their costs, if it stays the same MAKE THEM AT LEAST 10 POINTS CHEAPER AND NOT INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS
PLEASE KEEP THE DOCTRINES way of customizing the IG

Glabro
07-02-2008, 10:41
Let me boil this thread down:

People who play Guard: "This is a great idea. This way more pts can be spent on upgrades, tanks, wargear, and advisors."

People who don't play Guard: OMGZORZ TEH SKY IS TEH FALLING! FEUR POINT GUARDSMEN ROXXOR MY SOXXOR! HIDE TEH WIMMINS AND TEH CHILLNZ!

Except I don't play Guard.

Zanzibarthefirst
07-02-2008, 11:11
What I would like to see though:
advisors can be attached to a squad I choose, and if the basic cost of guardsman goes down one point keep their costs, if it stays the same MAKE THEM AT LEAST 10 POINTS CHEAPER AND NOT INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS


wouldnt that make pskers something like 5 points?

static grass
07-02-2008, 11:12
But what about prefered enemy and similar specialist things like that? I doubt it if GW decides to allow EVERY option, and if they dont have it, they will have alot of unhappy gamers that will just to deal with it, and either give up on guard or change their playing style.


A lot of the specialist stuff, is just that specialist and is either really effective or completely useless. So I expect to see it gone with the new dex and replaced by fewer more balanced options within the core list. Most of the stuff like prefered enemy which is modelled on to the minis in someway does not have any impact in terms of wyswig if they are not taken. I mean my steel legion guys just look like the hate orks even if they dont have prefered enemy.

I really dont think GW gives a rats if people quit because the rules change because the rules are aways changing. Quitting becaue the rules change is a serious toys exiting pram situation, play because you love the game, the minis and fluff but not the rules.

JasoKuuhl
07-02-2008, 11:16
wouldnt that make pskers something like 5 points?

Well probably what they are worth :D.
True psychers should still be like 15-20 points.
But comissars ore techpriest at like 40 points should be only 30 or the basic guard cost should go down.
But I would like to see them cheaper than the basic guard cost down, so you get your worth for what points you spend

Grey Seer Skretch
07-02-2008, 12:02
4pt Guardsmen?!?! My humble little Termegaunts just saw the Ork codex and went to themselves "This is what 6 pts goes for nowadays? Y'know what, screw this, in my next life I'm gonna' be a Carnifex!" before fleshborering their own heads off. I would hate to be an Eldar player, whose Guardians go for twice the cost as these new Guardsmen. But even after the Orks, to think it gets worse...

It looks like 4th ed has finally and truly fallen apart. No wonder 5th ed rumors are so rampant. 4th ed has finally gotten to a point where their own codecies are one-upping each other, and the most powerful army is as easily determined as whoever has the newer codex.

I miss the good ol' days of the pre-Chaos codex, back when every other codex could relatively and conceivably be as competetive as every other one, given a proper player... But Chaos was ultimately really broke compared to Space Marines for often-repeated reasons. Now that Orks are released, they're broke. And then the Guard, who will corner the market on hordes even further, making the single cells of the Hive Mind look like Aspect Warriors. Who's next? I have just two words that will scare the observant gamer's pants off if this keeps up: Pariah Spam.

4th ed fallen apart? Really? So you'd say its fallen apart instead of the two worst and most useless pamphlet-codexes in the game (eldar and orks) finally being updated and turned back into competative and interesting armies? I'm saying this primarily to play devil's advocate, but I have been playing Orks for a long time, and had a nid army for quite a bit during that time too, and I can say for a fact that there wasn't even a comparison between the two lists six months ago. I'd stick my neck out and say 40k in its current format is actually about as balanced, enjoyable and interesting as its ever been right now, and long may that continue!

Zanzibarthefirst
07-02-2008, 12:19
Well probably what they are worth :D.
True psychers should still be like 15-20 points.
But comissars ore techpriest at like 40 points should be only 30 or the basic guard cost should go down.
But I would like to see them cheaper than the basic guard cost down, so you get your worth for what points you spend

Thats true. I wouldnt complain if everything got a 25%ish decrease in points, although I have the problem that any guard army i'd do is a FW one so their lists are unlikely to get fixed

Kriegsherr
07-02-2008, 13:29
Good god even as a Guard Player I think that four points is waaaayy to cheap.I´m seeing 250 models in 1500 (which would cost 1000 Points) + some fancy extras like 3 Leman Russes and Heavy Weapons.

< snipped some >



You seem to forget that

1) the big horde armies are almost never able to bring their numbers to bear on a normal 40k table with all the terrain

2) that IG Soldiers right now just are that bad compared to a 6 point shoota boy

3) that the cheaper soldiers most probably will be balanced by more expensive special weapons or heavy weapons or some other things we still don't know about.

A naked IG Squad at 60 points gets ravaged by 60 points of shoota boyz, Space marines, and maybe even eldar guardians (that also are quite overpriced, but in 12" will shred the IG dudes to pieces)

getting 15 IG Soldiers for the same price could already balance this and make IG Infantry Squads without weapon upgrades a viable choice against most armies. If they will die quickly without much impact as they do now, at least you have lost 33% less points.

And the last thing is that I expect the infantry squad to be 45 points. 40 points just seems to be a little to low, and 50 seems to be to high.



And to the idea of having conscripts compared to grots. Conscripts are normal IG just BS is worse and morale as well, they own grots in every other stat.


Well, yes and no. Both are quite weak. Its not a big difference... but i'd place conscripts at about 3,5 points per soldier as they are a little bit better than grots.



Yes the basic guardman is weak right now but you have to think at another level. not 250 points of Guard against 250 points of xy. At that level IG doesn´t shine. 2 Heavy Bolters a Lascannon and 2 Plasmaguns aren´t impressive.
But their killyness improves drastically the more points are played. 10 Heavy Bolters, 5 Lascannons and 10 Plasmaguns are impressive at 1250. And it gets worse the more points you give Guard.


Common, you can't tell me you expect the weapon upgrades to stay the same or get cheaper? SM and the Ork codices showed a completly different trend, so as long as you don't use your guardsmen with only lasguns, points won't change much.




I know that people would like to see it, yes me too, but think about the guys who would abuse this. I don´t wanna play a guy who swaps me with 400 models with some HQ´s in his horde providing morale 9 bubbles to everybody.
It´s hard to kill 200 models, but 400 :eyebrows:.


1) 4 points are not 3 points... its a 33% point discount, not 50%
2) In the end heavy and special weapons will likely cost more, so IG Infantry might get a little bit more numerous and thus more powerful, but not on the scale you seem to think of




What I would like to see though:

´Chimeras 10 points cheaper


Very likely I would say, maybe even more.



stormtroopers at least 1 point cheaper or their weapons storm 3 or strength 4


I expect a higher drop in point cost but the same "weapon-buff" like the shoota boyz got, so no assault 3 or strength 4



Sentinels 10 poinst cheaper


Very likely (it seems all light vehicles are getting cheaper)



more Heavy support choices (Exterminator, vanquisher, griffon, heavy mortars, ...)


Not unlikely as there are some 2nd edition choices that returned to the ork codex, but I wouldn't expect too much



Basic guardman at most 1 point cheaper, or the range of the lasgun increased to 30. I could also imagine making it a storm weapon when in 6" to the enemy and stay at 6 points


price drop almost certain, 1 or 2 points possible I'd say.
30 inch lasgun range, never gonna happen. This is a Tau speciality and will stay that way, and the lasgun will never ever be better in any stat than a Space Marine Boltgun.
Last rule you sugests seems to complicated, doesn't blends in with guard fluff (save for stormtroopers who will very likely get assault hellguns) and wouldn't never make up for the 1 or 2 points the soldiers are too expensive right now



Give Ogrins toghness 5 and on lp less, and give them a command ogryn that can carry a powerfist so they can really be a squad that holds itself in CC


T5 possible if we look at the new Ork Boss stats.
Powerfists... nah. Won't happen. Ogryns already got S6, and they'll not getting access to real powerweapons as it would contradict the Fluff, so save GW going over the top, overbalancing things and giving their "clubs" not only S+1 but also count them as powerweapons, I would set my money on them getting thougher, but not really fightier (save maybe an attack more)



Some real snipers :-)


Sniper weapons are rumoured to get better in 5th, so GW won't change anything in the IG Codex concerning snipers (with the exception of the hobbits beeing gone from it, but with all the fuss about 2nd edition sillyness returning into some codices, I doubt it :rolleyes:)



normally i would write something for mortars but due to 5th edition rules the template will be fixed anyway so they are fine


They might get a minor adjustment anyway... maybe AP 5 like the new Frag rules for the ork cannons?



rough riders should have their lances not used up in the first charge but keep it


I doubt they change something with such a good fluff reasoning behind it, but hopefully rough riders get better or cheaper somehow.



advisors can be attached to a squad I choose, and if the basic cost of guardsman goes down one point keep their costs, if it stays the same MAKE THEM AT LEAST 10 POINTS CHEAPER AND NOT INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS


I really don't know what GW intends for them, as an IG Player I would hope also for free advisor, cheaper... well, no, make them worth the points! The psyker is not often seen on our table at least even though he only costs 12 points...




PLEASE KEEP THE DOCTRINES way of customizing the IG


forget it man. Doctrines are gone. Better get used to it now and while at it, be aware that only the most used and most useful doctrines will make their way into the normal list as squad upgrades or new units.

So while it even might be that some squads can buy carapace armour or grave chutes (I really hope they have to pay for it this time, it was a no-brainer in the last codex), some other things like close order drill, sharp shooters and chemo-masks most likely will be axed.

Bloodknight
07-02-2008, 13:52
The main reason for people not taking the psyker is that he eats up a doctrine point while being acknowledged to be useless except as a bullet catcher for the command units with his random and additionally either weak or fully useless (machine curse and psychic whip) powers.

Bunnahabhain
07-02-2008, 17:24
I agree totally with Bloodknight. The only time I ever use a psyker is as an extra wound, if I have spare doctrines, and am not going for a fully optimised competitive list.

starlight
07-02-2008, 17:26
Waste of:

a Doctrine point
points in general

Nope, the current psykers need a fair bit of work before I'll consider them...:( Sad too, as they are a neat idea...

Outlaw289
07-02-2008, 18:01
Waste of:

a Doctrine point
points in general

Nope, the current psykers need a fair bit of work before I'll consider them...:( Sad too, as they are a neat idea...

A friend wrote up this profile for them. I'd love to see Psykers like this...


Sanctioned Psyker

Points25 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv5+
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Laspistol, Force Weapon, Flak Armour.
Special Rules: Independent Character, It's For Your Own Good!, Psyker.
Options:
A Sanctioned Psyker may be given up to two of the following Psychic Powers:
- Telepathic Order for +5 points
- Telepathic Ward for +10 points
- Machine Curse for +10 points
- Psychic Lash for +15 points
- Warp Shield for +15 points
- Lightning Arc for +20 points


Psychic Powers
Telepathic Order: If the Sanctioned Psyker is in the same squad as a model Generalship rule, the radius is extended to 18'' instead of 12''. This power is available permanently, so the Sanctioned Psyker does need to take a Psychic test to use it.

Telepathic Ward: : If the Sanctioned Psyker, or the unit he is with, is targeted by a Psychic Power, you may roll a D6. On the roll of a 4+ the power is cancelled. This power is available permanently, so the Sanctioned Psyker does need to take a Psychic test to use it.

Machine Curse: The Sanctioned Psyker may make a Psychic Test at the start of any Assault Phase in which he is engaged with a vehicle. Instead of attacking normally, he makes one attack against the vehicle. If it hits, roll a D6 and to determine the effect:
1 = no effect, 2-5 = glancing hit, 6 = penetrating hit.

Psychic Lash: The Sanctioned Psyker may make a Psychic Test at the start of any Assault Phase. If successful, instead of making his normal amount of attacks he may make D3 attacks at Strength 5 with his Force Weapon. These attacks may target any enemy model in the combat, regardless of whether he could normally target them.

Warp Shield: The Sanctioned Psyker, and any unit he is with, have a 5+ Invulnerable save against shooting attacks. This power is available permanently, so the Sanctioned Psyker does need to take a Psychic test to use it.

Lightning Arc: This power is used in the Imperial Guard Shooting phase instead of firing a normal weapon, and requires the Sanctioned Psyker to make a successful Psychic test.

Lightning Arc is S4 AP- 24" Assault D6

Sanctioned Psykers
You may take up to five Sanctioned Psykers in your army. A Sanctioned Psyker does not use up any Force Organisation Chart selections, but is otherwise treated as a separate HQ unit

Melta Pants
07-02-2008, 18:22
5pts sounds infinitely more reasonable, since I fight mostly MEQs. It would really just allow me to take more of the big models that I really enjoy. I've got enough Infantry to paint already.

It's a more solid number psychologically as well, and as an added bonus brings them in line with the baseline cost of the new Empire State Troops (O-M-G Parallels!),

esk34
07-02-2008, 19:24
While 4pt gaurdsmen seem really chaep at first, if you start to think about the wargear that gaurd tend to need to be effective, then the 4pts becomes rather irelevant.

Has anybody tried running there gaurd in 10 men las only 60pt sqauds. I did this when I started, and they got eaten by literally everything. If anything as much a sneezed at them they tended to run, or all fall over dead. It wasn't till recently where I cut down on HQ spending, and numbers, and started including heavy weapons, special weapons and vox casters on every sqaud that my gaurd army became even slightly competitive. This howeer leads to a pretty boring army that is very static. So I would love 40 point suicide squads that allow me to re-eqiup my HQ's with the left over points. I may even be able to fit in my rough riders into the list if there are enough points left over.
If you think about it, most people tend to run around 100 gaursmen per 1500 points. Now these gaurd are normally all pretty well equiped, and in this regaurd are able to be competive. If gaurd are reduced to 4 points, ths means that most players will have 200 extra points they would not ofhad before. Now this will allow for 2 more equiped gaurd sqauds, or 50 useless grunts, that will be great fun for 1 Chaos lord to chew through over 3 turns. (well at least he will have something to do now, as normally the rest his army kills everything before he gets there.)
If everybody is complaining about Gaurd armies getting approx, 2 good squads, or maybe one tank and some wargear in a 1500 point game they are being really harsh on the poor gaurd players.
I don't know how GW will redo the next codex, but as long as everything is balanced, 4point gaurd dont phase me at all.

As for 4 HS options, thiswould be good, as it allows for a fairly tank heavy army, so you will get a kind of half Armored Co. Better than nothing I guess. As IG tanks tend to rather average, this wouldn't be all that overpowered. I definitly dont see powergamers going for it, as gaurd themselves are far to weak to back this type of thing up. Not like the iron warriors who could also take a heckload of terminators/oblits and a nasty deamon prince as well as marines. Along with cheap marine tanks, and the like made them a nighmare. IG with an extra tank, makes slightly more dangerous, but a lot more charchterful.

Dimitrios
07-02-2008, 21:39
I think I really agree on making giard 4pts a model, as they are in all honest over priced for what they can do, man for man.

HOWEVER i do think that if they do do this that GW need tobe clever in their application of this new price.

As mentioned above making them cheaper would mean that there would be 200 points on your average "man power" army to spend on other things. This i thinjk will lead to BEARDY play, especially if the rumours of an extra Heavy are true.

What i would prefer to see is that the squads stay at 60 points basics, however they start with more men for the same price. So basically the points decreasemeans that you get more guard for your money, not more tanks you can sqeeze in or more heavy weapons etc.

So yes as long as they control the application of the reduction i would be more than happy.

As a caveate, maybe 5 pts not 4, but hey thats just nit-picky.

senorcardgage
07-02-2008, 22:16
Even though I play Orks I think a 4pt price drop is too much. I think if they dropped it to 5pts and gave them a doctrine for free or some pierce of gear then they'd be fine. Conscripts should also be 3pts, they are to guard as Grots are to Orks and should be the same price. The basic guardsman doesn't need an overhaul as much as the otehr aspects of the army, the things that are meant to support the fragile infantry.

I don't understand how the conscripts should cost the same as grots (assuming no change in conscripts)

Grots have :
~+1 BS but almost never get to shoot

Guard have:
~+1S
~+1T (big one)
~+1I
~An Armor Save
~Options for Heavy/special weapons (although flamer is only real option)
Much better gun.

I don't see how they should cost the same... Care to explain?

Marneus Calgar
08-02-2008, 00:16
Do Grotz still get the screen cover rule, and all the other little ones?

Bunnahabhain
08-02-2008, 00:17
I don't understand how the conscripts should cost the same as grots (assuming no change in conscripts)

Grots have :
~+1 BS but almost never get to shoot

Guard have:
~+1S
~+1T (big one)
~+1I
~An Armor Save
~Options for Heavy/special weapons (although flamer is only real option)
Much better gun.

I don't see how they should cost the same... Care to explain?

The S and I are largely irrelevant. Both are so bad in combat, causing any casulties is a minor miracle.

The armour save is largely ignored as well.

The weapons options are hideously expensive

The Toughness and better gun I can't argue with.

There one major factor the grots have in their favour is Leadership.
For conscripts to be useful, you either take a minimum sized unit, with no options at all, as an 80pt meatsheild, or you have to buy them an independant commisar, which costs 50pts before weapons etc, and a doctrine slot.
The Runt-heards to keep the grots in order ar rather less than that, I believe.

I think they may make more sense in 5th ed, although, as it stands, Grots are over-priced, comapared to basic Orks.

senorcardgage
08-02-2008, 00:20
The S and I are largely irrelevant. Both are so bad in combat, causing any casulties is a minor miracle.

The armour save is largely ignored as well.

The weapons options are hideously expensive

The Toughness and better gun I can't argue with.

There one major factor the grots have in their favour is Leadership.
For conscripts to be useful, you either take a minimum sized unit, with no options at all, as an 80pt meatsheild, or you have to buy them an independant commisar, which costs 50pts before weapons etc, and a doctrine slot.
The Runt-heards to keep the grots in order ar rather less than that, I believe.

I think they may make more sense in 5th ed, although, as it stands, Grots are over-priced, comapared to basic Orks.

The save does matter in CC, but other than that, you're right. I mentioned the expense of the heavy weapons already.

The runt herds DO give them better leadership, but they only crank it up to a 7, which is pretty much a joke!

Gensuke626
08-02-2008, 00:46
Do Grotz still get the screen cover rule, and all the other little ones?

No, just the Mine Clearance rule. No more Grot Carpet or shields


There one major factor the grots have in their favour is Leadership.
For conscripts to be useful, you either take a minimum sized unit, with no options at all, as an 80pt meatsheild, or you have to buy them an independant commisar, which costs 50pts before weapons etc, and a doctrine slot.
The Runt-heards to keep the grots in order ar rather less than that, I believe.


Well, we are Required to buy a runtherd for every 10 grots in a mob...so if we go full mob, we need to burn 30 points to get the 3 runtherds... 20 points less than the Commissar. But here are the key differences:
Runtherd is LD 7 with a Mancatcher or poisoned attack, and if the grots fail a Morale check, a squighound can eat D3 of them to get a reroll.
Commissar is Ld 10 with any weapon he wants, and if the Conscripts fail a Morale check, he kills 1 and they auto-pass.

I think the Auto pass for 1 death as opposed to the reroll for D3 deaths and the Ld 10 vs 7 is worth the extra 20 points.

marneus54
08-02-2008, 00:59
Well, we are Required to buy a runtherd for every 10 grots in a mob...so if we go full mob, we need to burn 30 points to get the 3 runtherds...


I found its quite fun to buy 29 grots and 2 Runtherds. That way you get to save 13 points. WEEEE :D

The UnNamed One
08-02-2008, 01:52
I think Guardsmen should be 5 points (Im a former IG player), and in the way of extra heavy support, IMO when guard get above 2k points, they are realy dying for another heavy support choice. I would like a FOC change to one similiar to fantasy's where the minimum and maximum allowed of each unit unit changes with points.

Shield of Freedom
08-02-2008, 02:31
I would like a FOC change to one similiar to fantasy's where the minimum and maximum allowed of each unit unit changes with points.

Unless the rule changes in the new edition, I don't think that'll happen. Even as an Imperial Guard player I don't like it when any army messes with the FOC.

An Imperial Guardsman looks about right with stats alone at five points a model. Taking into account how many you can field, the number of special weapons and heavy weapons they can take must be taken into account with the overall price assessment. Not just his statline.

Drastic things need to happen in the codex. Not just a point drop on Infantry or even a codex wide point drop. If you could field two Leman Russ tanks as a single Heavy Support choice, who wouldn't be tempted to take six? After taking six of those tanks, how many points are you really going to spend on Guardsmen? In that case low cost infantry won't create a horde that everyone is affraid of (IG players included), if the rest of the codex actually gives us a reason to field other things. Not just a horde of Guardsmen because the other choices "suck."

Things like allowing one squad per platoon to be upgraded to Veterans (only the BS and LD increase, not the super sergeant, 3 special weapons thing). One Heavy Weapons squad per Infantry Platoon. 10 Man command squads. Regimental Doctrines in the unit entry that cost points (ie Iron Discipline, Die Hards, Sharpshooters) at a per model point basis. 25 point Commisars, 100 point Leman Russ tanks before adding hull and sponson weapons, etc.

Things like this might even justify 6 point Guardsmen!

In my opinion, a codex is well writen when a player looks at it and can't truly decide on how to make his army right away. If there is no such thing as a "no brainer" choice (within reason of course) and no choices that are obviously "bad" then it is a good codex. The current Eldar and Ork codecies are good examples of this. As of yet, no one has found a "useless" unit in any of these codecies. Sure, better than usual combos have been found, but the alternatives are not found to be that inferior. The Falcon of Halequin doom is a good example. Tough, and a lot of people hate it, not taking any Falcons or Harlequins though is still good. An Eldar army will not fall apart without those units. My Eldar army doesn't contain a single Harlequin or Falcon for example and is quite competative because I can take just about anything in the codex and use it well.

However My Guard army does not include Ogryns, Advisors, Techpriests, etc, because it's too obvious that they are not good choices.

Vaktathi
08-02-2008, 02:44
In my opinion, a codex is well writen when a player looks at it and can't truly decide on how to make his army right away. If there is no such thing as a "no brainer" choice (within reason of course) and no choices that are obviously "bad" then it is a good codex. The current Eldar and Ork codecies are good examples of this. As of yet, no one has found a "useless" unit in any of codecies. Sure better than usual combos have been found, but the alternatives are not found to be that inferior. The Falcon of Halequin doom is a good example. Tough, and a lot of people hate it, not taking any Falcons or Harlequins though is still good, an Eldar army will not fall apart without those units. My Eldar army doesn't contain a single Harlequin or Falcon...


I think I've played one game against an eldar army since their codex came out that had less than two holofield tanks, and I think every Eldar army I've played against has had Dire Avengers or Jetbikes. I have not seen a competitive Eldar list that wasn't Mechanized yet.

I'll agree that the Orks are much better, however they still do have some almost no-brainer options (stormboyz with Zagstruk for instance)

The Dude
08-02-2008, 03:13
I think every Eldar army I've played against has had Dire Avengers or Jetbikes.

I have no problem with most Eldar armies having Dire Avengers or Jetbikes. Dire Avengers are a Main Line Troop and Jetbikes (which I take to mean Guardian Jetbikes) are the basis for Siam Hann style armies.


I have not seen a competitive Eldar list that wasn't Mechanized yet.

I'm just curious, but when you say “competitive Eldar list” do you mean lists designed for a competitive environment such as a tournament or WAAC pick-up game, or do you mean a list that has a chance of winning?

Vaktathi
08-02-2008, 03:18
I have no problem with most Eldar armies having Dire Avengers or Jetbikes. Dire Avengers are a Main Line Troop and Jetbikes (which I take to mean Guardian Jetbikes) are the basis for Siam Hann style armies. I didn't say I did either, I was simply responding that I didnt think that the Eldar codex was "no brainer free" as what was implied. I have seen at least one of these in every eldar army I've faced. I've seen Wraithguard as troops exactly once to see how it worked (proxied actually), and it was promptly discarded, rangers every so often, and Guardians I think twice.




I'm just curious, but when you say “competitive Eldar list” do you mean lists designed for a competitive environment such as a tournament or WAAC pick-up game, or do you mean a list that has a chance of winning? I mean a list that is designed for a competitive environment.

Shield of Freedom
08-02-2008, 03:33
I had the disclaimer of "within reason" for a reason. Dire Avengers are a troops choice, makes sense that almost every Eldar army would have a squad. That's like saying "I have hardly seen a Space Marine army without at least one Tactical squad."

If I must, then I will amend what I said.

With the exception of TROOPS choices from the FOC as there will be common similarities between armies, a player should never feel that any unit is a "no brainer" either to take or not to take.

The earlier disclaimer was there to imply that it is well known that a Space Marine Tactical squad, a Fire Warrior squad, a Guant brood, an Ork Boy mob, an Infantry Platoon, a Dark Eldar Warrior squad, a Dire Avenger squad, etc. are "no brainers" in the sense that you must take two TROOPS and these units epitomize the army and race in question, more or less.

The Dude
08-02-2008, 03:34
I didn't say I did either, I was simply responding that I didnt think that the Eldar codex was "no brainer free" as what was implied. I have seen at least one of these in every eldar army I've faced. I've seen Wraithguard as troops exactly once to see how it worked (proxied actually), and it was promptly discarded, rangers every so often, and Guardians I think twice.

I don’t think this is a result of these choices particularly being “no-brainers”, but more that they are meant to be baseline troops. I feel that with the advent of 5th edition, Guardians will again find their niche and let’s be honest, Rangers aren’t really supposed to hit the field en-mass are they? Sticking them in Troops not only allows Alaitoc Armies to be played, but frees up Elites slots for more important things like Aspect Warriors.

Wraithguard as Troops was IMO an inclusion for those who wish to *gasp* play a fun game, rather than a “competitive” one. They are better used as Elites, but why the hell not give people the option? It’s not like they don’t see the field at all.


I mean a list that is designed for a competitive environment.

Fair enough, but understand that just as with the Wraithguard as Troops example above, some of the more esoteric options may be there as more of an option for narrative games, rather than competitive ones. By this I mean things like FOC swaps and certain bits of Wargear etc.

I will agree that Zagstruk may be slightly OTT though ;)

starlight
08-02-2008, 03:44
It's a bit sad for me though, since Zagstruk has gone from being something that seemingly only I fielded to something that seemingly *everyone* wants to field.:(

Ah well, we'll find out all the scoop shortly enough anyways, GDUK08 isn't that far off...;)

Vaktathi
08-02-2008, 03:57
I had the disclaimer of "within reason" for a reason. Dire Avengers are a troops choice, makes sense that almost every Eldar army would have a squad. That's like saying "I have hardly seen a Space Marine army without at least one Tactical squad."


Except with Eldar there are a total of 5 (7 if you count the distinction between Guardians and Stormguardians and Rangers/Pathfinders, I've never seen Storm Guardians on a table though) rather distinct possible Troops choices. When you really only see one or two on a constant basis, that tells you something, its not like IG where you have Guardsmen, Guardsmen with a tank, Guardsmen in training, and then possibly a couple Stormtrooper squads (more accurate guardsmen with more armor).

As for the rest of the list, as I said I've only seen or played one game that didn't have at least two holofield tanks. How often do you see Dark Reapers relative to the Holofield tank?




I don’t think this is a result of these choices particularly being “no-brainers”, but more that they are meant to be baseline troops. I feel that with the advent of 5th edition, Guardians will again find their niche and let’s be honest, Rangers aren’t really supposed to hit the field en-mass are they? Sticking them in Troops not only allows Alaitoc Armies to be played, but frees up Elites slots for more important things like Aspect Warriors. I can see a place for Guardians, I just never see people actually take them. I also understand Rangers aren't something to be taken en-masse, I see them more often than Guardians and Wraithguard, but still not too often.


Wraithguard as Troops was IMO an inclusion for those who wish to *gasp* play a fun game, rather than a “competitive” one. They are better used as Elites, but why the hell not give people the option? It’s not like they don’t see the field at all. Well, they just aren't taken that often, that was the point I was making, there definitely are some "takes" and "dont takes" for the Eldar army for most competitive builds, which was the point I was addressing in that even with the newer codex's there are alot of units that get consigned to the "only for fun" pile rather than "fun and effective". Even as Elites I think I see people take Fire Dragons more often over the Wraithguard as they can do the same job against most*(not all of course) opponents (AP2 Instant Death/Wound on 2+, kill vehicles) but cheaper.

llama rider
08-02-2008, 04:05
i would love to have four point guardsmen, because that would mean i could spend more points on special and heavy weaponry, and doctorines
the only drawback i see here is that getting even a 1500 point army based off of infantry is going to be expensive moneywise

The Dude
08-02-2008, 04:33
Except with Eldar there are a total of 5 (7 if you count the distinction between Guardians and Stormguardians and Rangers/Pathfinders, I've never seen Storm Guardians on a table though) rather distinct possible Troops choices. When you really only see one or two on a constant basis, that tells you something, its not like IG where you have Guardsmen, Guardsmen with a tank, Guardsmen in training, and then possibly a couple Stormtrooper squads (more accurate guardsmen with more armor).

Well, you’ve said it yourself, all the choices are fairly distinct from each other. This indicates a differing battlefield role. Unfortunately if you are focussing in “competitive lists”, the most prevalent options will be the ones that show the highest degree of offensive killing power (and to a lesser degree objective taking ability) as opposed to disruption or defensive tar-pitting etc.


I can see a place for Guardians, I just never see people actually take them. I also understand Rangers aren't something to be taken en-masse, I see them more often than Guardians and Wraithguard, but still not too often.

As I said, many of these things could (and I suspect will) change when 5th edition hits the shelves. The high numbers and mobile heavy weapons of the Guardians will be great for securing objectives.


Well, they just aren't taken that often, that was the point I was making, there definitely are some "takes" and "dont takes" for the Eldar army for most competitive builds, which was the point I was addressing in that even with the newer codex's there are alot of units that get consigned to the "only for fun" pile rather than "fun and effective". Even as Elites I think I see people take Fire Dragons more often over the Wraithguard as they can do the same job against most*(not all of course) opponents (AP2 Instant Death/Wound on 2+, kill vehicles) but cheaper.

If you are going to look at Tournament lists in isolation, of course you will only see a certain selection of units used. Unfortunately this kind of selective sampling isn’t constructive for determining the usefulness of all the units in a list. One must look at all the situations they will be used (possibly excluding Apocalypse ;)).

Under standard mission conditions, yes there will be some units that perform better than others. On the other hand, in special scenarios others will be far more beneficial. This is why they are included in the list.

Shield of Freedom
08-02-2008, 04:43
As I said, many of these things could (and I suspect will) change when 5th edition hits the shelves. The high numbers and mobile heavy weapons of the Guardians will be great for securing objectives.

That's a actually a good point as to why 4 points may be too low... that would be a lot of scoring units even if other "goodies" are taken to pick up the slack. I still stand by 5 point guardsmen. If TROOPS are indeed the only scoring units in 5th edition, the Imperial Guard would have, for the first time, a possible metagame advantage. This would be compouned even more so if Guard are made quite mobile and very cheap. :eek:

Vaktathi
08-02-2008, 04:48
Well, you’ve said it yourself, all the choices are fairly distinct from each other. This indicates a differing battlefield role. Unfortunately if you are focussing in “competitive lists”, the most prevalent options will be the ones that show the highest degree of offensive killing power (and to a lesser degree objective taking ability) as opposed to disruption or defensive tar-pitting etc. To me, that represents an imbalance in the list, if an army has a unit that performs a role, but that role is not needed or can be sufficiently avoided, what is the purpose of that unit? I'd much rather see a case for possibly taking every unit in an FoC choice in a balanced and competitive list rather than one or two.




As I said, many of these things could (and I suspect will) change when 5th edition hits the shelves. The high numbers and mobile heavy weapons of the Guardians will be great for securing objectives. maybe, this is true, we will have to wait and see what the finalized rules look like, however I still can't imagine Wraithguard troops (or Elites) being all that in demand, maybe even less so with the reduction in heavy non-troop units.




If you are going to look at Tournament lists in isolation, of course you will only see a certain selection of units used. Unfortunately this kind of selective sampling isn’t constructive for determining the usefulness of all the units in a list. One must look at all the situations they will be used (possibly excluding Apocalypse ;)).

Under standard mission conditions, yes there will be some units that perform better than others. On the other hand, in special scenarios others will be far more beneficial. This is why they are included in the list. The problem is Standard Missions are probably 90% of games played. If a unit only really has a chance of being "competitive" 10% of the time, then I think there is something wrong. Hell even for most of the Special/battle/raid missions in the back of the rulebook I think that Jetbikes and mounted Dire Avengers and Holofield tanks are the way to go usually, maybe even moreso.

The Dude
08-02-2008, 04:59
To me, that represents an imbalance in the list, if an army has a unit that performs a role, but that role is not needed or can be sufficiently avoided, what is the purpose of that unit? I'd much rather see a case for possibly taking every unit in an FoC choice in a balanced and competitive list rather than one or two.

It’s not an imbalance in the list, it’s an imbalance in the types of missions played in competitive environments.


maybe, this is true, we will have to wait and see what the finalized rules look like, however I still can't imagine Wraithguard troops (or Elites) being all that in demand, maybe even less so with the reduction in heavy non-troop units.

I see a 10 construct squad sitting in cover being one of the hardest objective cappers in the list. Whether that’s “worth it” to people will have to wait until 5th is out.


The problem is Standard Missions are probably 90% of games played. If a unit only really has a chance of being "competitive" 10% of the time, then I think there is something wrong. Hell even for most of the Special/battle/raid missions in the back of the rulebook I think that Jetbikes and mounted Dire Avengers and Holofield tanks are the way to go usually, maybe even moreso.

Once again, you are focussing too much on competitive games. If they don’t work in this environment, don’t take them, but it would be wrong to change the way they work or remove them entirely simply because some people don’t like playing narrative campaigns ;)

Vaktathi
08-02-2008, 05:20
It’s not an imbalance in the list, it’s an imbalance in the types of missions played in competitive environments. Which in turn runs back to the list which such environments are based upon.




I see a 10 construct squad sitting in cover being one of the hardest objective cappers in the list. Whether that’s “worth it” to people will have to wait until 5th is out. The problem is they are slow (and can be made stupid, especially after a decent Torrent of Fire), and have a really short range, and will be ordnance bait with the new blast rules.




Once again, you are focussing too much on competitive games. If they don’t work in this environment, don’t take them, but it would be wrong to change the way they work or remove them entirely simply because some people don’t like playing narrative campaigns ;) In a narrative setting however you are going to bend the FoC and pts available, in which case the FoC slot and pts cost becomes less important as other methods of balance will be found.

The Dude
08-02-2008, 05:33
Which in turn runs back to the list which such environments are based upon.

Not sure what you mean here :confused:


The problem is they are slow (and can be made stupid, especially after a decent Torrent of Fire), and have a really short range, and will be ordnance bait with the new blast rules.

I would argue that they don’t need to move, shoot or not be stupid (:p) in order to cap objectives in the new rules. I see them as a defensive unit anyway. As I said, the proof is in the pudding on that, and right now, the batter ain’t even mixed.


In a narrative setting however you are going to bend the FoC and pts available, in which case the FoC slot and pts cost becomes less important as other methods of balance will be found.

Not necessarily. You may want to do something quick and dirty, but still fun. Not everyone has the time to plan all sorts of balancing factors, and simply want to come up with a scenario, have 2 (or more :D) armies fight it out and see where that leads. Ensuring that these people have the inherent balance of the list to fall back on when used in other ways (ie not just “kill everything”) shows that GW have a grasp of the target audience beyond the Tournament scene.

In the end, the recent Codices are reasonably well balanced for Tournaments despite some people seeing “optimum” builds. The thing is they are also reasonably well balanced for people playing BEYOND the Tournament environment. This is IMO the ideal position for us to be in.

Vaktathi
08-02-2008, 06:01
Not sure what you mean here :confused: What I meant was that if the most common form of play is that which is similar to the competitive environment (standard missions) and there is a clear preference for some units over others in such things, that is the fault of the army list for not taking this into consideration. Even for fluffy battles there's usually some picking and choosing of certain units over others, For instance, how often do you see Ratlings, Techpriests, Psykers or Priests in an IG army, even in Apocalypse games?


I would argue that they don’t need to move, shoot or not be stupid (:p) in order to cap objectives in the new rules. I see them as a defensive unit anyway. As I said, the proof is in the pudding on that, and right now, the batter ain’t even mixed. Well, we do have draft rules, however they will very likely change. That said, I can see that viewpoint, but given the drastic cut in mobile scoring units, I think it may not pan out very well.




Not necessarily. You may want to do something quick and dirty, but still fun. Not everyone has the time to plan all sorts of balancing factors, and simply want to come up with a scenario, have 2 (or more :D) armies fight it out and see where that leads. Ensuring that these people have the inherent balance of the list to fall back on when used in other ways (ie not just “kill everything”) shows that GW have a grasp of the target audience beyond the Tournament scene. That also depends on whats "fluffy" and available, it still may not be very balanced. An Eldar ghost army of Wraithlords and Wraithguard against a late stage Tyranid Mycetic assault of Carnifex's and remnant genestealers will probably be decided before the game starts.


In the end, the recent Codices are reasonably well balanced for Tournaments despite some people seeing “optimum” builds. The thing is they are also reasonably well balanced for people playing BEYOND the Tournament environment. This is IMO the ideal position for us to be in. Personally, I'm not so sure on either count. I don't think a fluffy force of Grey Knights would do very well against a fluffy Iron Warriors, EC, or Night Lords army, nor would a competitive Daemonhunters list usually be a match for a competitive Chaos list, and the fluffy Chaos list would still probably have an advantage over the competitive Daemonhunters list. I don't think mechanized IG stand up to Mechanized Tau or Eldar on an equal footing, same could be said of footslogging Eldar against a footslogging Marine army. If playing some of the battle/raid/special missions, fast Skimmers clearly have an advantage (Eldar "Breakout" turn 1/2 win for example for being able to escape off the board so easily) and in something like Blitz, a gunline, troop & HWP heavy IG army will have a huge advantage over a non-droppod marine army.

Pinkdonut
08-02-2008, 22:25
Vaktathi: i agree that the new codeii aren't perfectly balanced but they are getting better. The new DA, Chaos, Ork and Eldar are more balance.
and i think your list of armies in your above comparisions,(gk vs IW,etc..) are a little off because some of those are really out of date or suck.
(pure grey knights should only be good against daemons, but totally suck vs everyone.)

( the problem with eldar(same mech units being used) is the horrible set up of victory conditions and fast skimmer rules that always make a falcon/fire prism good no matter the mission.
vp denial, last second objective grabbers and there invincible sometimes:cheese:, i play eldar with one falcon it never really dies, but i like the model so i use it)

on topic: i think dropping the cost of guardsman wont do anything.
they need guardsmen to be some what good or you will get an army that is to large for its own good.
ie cant get enough flashlights on the same target, taking up the whole deployment zone readying it for a massacre by assault troops.
or imperial guard will be an army that is about using as little troops as possible so you can spend it on the good units.
and minimal use of troops is unfluffy most of the time.

Plague Lord
08-02-2008, 23:36
I hope you do all see that aswell as guardsmen getting points cost the spec/heavy wpns in squads will get major points increases. So if you want to buy kitted out squads with spec and heavy weps you'll be paying something along the ways of todays cost for platoons... :(

Shield of Freedom
09-02-2008, 02:22
I hope you do all see that aswell as guardsmen getting points cost the spec/heavy wpns in squads will get major points increases. So if you want to buy kitted out squads with spec and heavy weps you'll be paying something along the ways of todays cost for platoons... :(

I don't believe so. I can see plasma going up to 12 (even I use it pretty exclusively) but others will drop or become more effective (ie the hopefull Grendade Launcher boost everyone wants).

So some points will be brought down to reflect their actual effectiveness or we'll finally be getting what we pay for when it comes to others.

Making everything cost the same as it does now but in a different way makes no sense.

totgeboren
09-02-2008, 09:45
imo it does.
Guardsmen infantry with a plasmagun and a lascannon are kinda worth it as it is. 10 guardsmen with a flamer/meltagun, sarge and frags are a waste of points.
If they drop the guardsmen down to 4 pts per head, but raise the cost of the big guns, you will have a unit that is costed according to its worth, regardless of how you want to equip it.

As troops you could have say one platoon for objective grabbing, with flamers/meltaguns and sarges. Say one command squad and 3 guardsmen squads. Thats about 200 pts.
I would say that their ability to take and hold objectives would be comparable to a tooled out tactical squad.

As firesupport for them, you could have a platoon of one commandsquad and 3 squads with the standard las/plas pattern, but they would cost about 300 pts. I think that sounds quite fitting for their abilities.

Shield of Freedom
09-02-2008, 18:13
imo it does.
Guardsmen infantry with a plasmagun and a lascannon are kinda worth it as it is. 10 guardsmen with a flamer/meltagun, sarge and frags are a waste of points.
If they drop the guardsmen down to 4 pts per head, but raise the cost of the big guns, you will have a unit that is costed according to its worth, regardless of how you want to equip it.

As troops you could have say one platoon for objective grabbing, with flamers/meltaguns and sarges. Say one command squad and 3 guardsmen squads. Thats about 200 pts.
I would say that their ability to take and hold objectives would be comparable to a tooled out tactical squad.

As firesupport for them, you could have a platoon of one commandsquad and 3 squads with the standard las/plas pattern, but they would cost about 300 pts. I think that sounds quite fitting for their abilities.

I see your points but I always question the logic of putting anything but Autocannons and Heavy bolters in normal infantry squads. The way I look at it firing a Lascannon at a tank means I'm waisting nine lasguns. I don't mind the option of having heavy weapons in squads, but I have to admit I never do it, not even the anti-infantry ones. One special and a sergeant with a bolter is what I go with. I save the heavy weapons for the heavy weapon squads. 25 points for a BS3 Lascannon on it's own amongst 9 lasguns is too expensive. 25 points for a BS3 Lascannon in a squad with 2 other ones I don't have a problem with. Together they're more effective. Just like Devastator squads pay more for their heavy weapons than a Tactical squad does. The very fact that the squad can take more than one and increase the effect of those weapons considerably because of it, justifies a higher cost for the weapons.

To be honest I don't mind Guardsmen at 6 points, so long as something is done to improve them. That's why I feel that 5 points a piece seems acceptable, if nothing changes in regards to a Guardsman with a lasgun. Making the Guard more mobile would help create the dilema that a unit should have. "Do I take the heavy weapon for the fire power, or do I forego it in favor of my mobility?" So, as stated before by others and myself, a points drop in of itself won't "fix" the guard. Something needs to be done to the codex as a whole.

kishvier
09-02-2008, 18:36
Guard have guns that shoot the equivalint (Lol) of shooting cotton candy and in the case of sergents, blue cotton candy because they are cooler. God the footsloggings will never end!!!:wtf:

Shield of Freedom
09-02-2008, 22:42
imo it does.
Guardsmen infantry with a plasmagun and a lascannon are kinda worth it as it is. 10 guardsmen with a flamer/meltagun, sarge and frags are a waste of points.
If they drop the guardsmen down to 4 pts per head, but raise the cost of the big guns, you will have a unit that is costed according to its worth, regardless of how you want to equip it.

I also want to state that if the current points for the guardsmen and their guns are not appropriate now because the cost is too high, how does lowering the points of the guardsmen and raising the points of the guns make it better. If it's not worth it now to have X + Y = Z, how can you say that (X-1) + (Y+1) = Z is better? The end result is that nothing changed and we're not getting anything more for the same amount of points.

It's been agreed upon by several people who play Guard and who don't play Guard that when you bring a certain number of points to the table, it's like playing with less points than your opponent.

Pitalla Crimson
09-02-2008, 23:16
I predict some Jervis Jhonson messing with the rules, and when he does things dont go good at all.

The Dude
09-02-2008, 23:25
I also want to state that if the current points for the guardsmen and their guns are not appropriate now because the cost is too high, how does lowering the points of the guardsmen and raising the points of the guns make it better. If it's not worth it now to have X + Y = Z, how can you say that (X-1) + (Y+1) = Z is better? The end result is that nothing changed and we're not getting anything more for the same amount of points.

You're assuming Z is what people are complaning about. There are however many eventual point outcomes due to the many different weapon options.

It seems to me that many people are happy with the points cost for a fully decked out squad, but not decking out the squad fully results in an imbalance. If the first example equals your equation above wich I will ammend to (X*10) + Y = Z, the second would be X*10 = N, and it is the N that people are worried about.

If you MUST take heavy weapons to make up for the points of the basic Guardsmen, this rips off squads that DON'T take them, creating an imbalance.

Shield of Freedom
10-02-2008, 00:23
If you MUST take heavy weapons to make up for the points of the basic Guardsmen, this rips off squads that DON'T take them, creating an imbalance.

In the end, that's what I was attempting say. :)

senorcardgage
10-02-2008, 04:38
I also want to state that if the current points for the guardsmen and their guns are not appropriate now because the cost is too high, how does lowering the points of the guardsmen and raising the points of the guns make it better. If it's not worth it now to have X + Y = Z, how can you say that (X-1) + (Y+1) = Z is better? The end result is that nothing changed and we're not getting anything more for the same amount of points.

It's been agreed upon by several people who play Guard and who don't play Guard that when you bring a certain number of points to the table, it's like playing with less points than your opponent.

Unless you want to maybe only take X's, or X's and W's, then you really don't care whether you've got Y or Y+1.

treben1234
10-02-2008, 06:31
For Storm Troops they sould have Ws4 Bs4 S3 T3 A1 I3 Ld8 Sv4 and the grenades and targeters...ect. They are beter trained then vetrens. Vetrens are just soilders that seen combat but have'nt died. There hell gun sould be uqine.

Storm Troopers of the old days had a role in the greman army. It is to get realy close to the lines throw a bunch of grenades and run away before the enemy regroups.

Im thinking S3 Ap5 assult 2 range 24. This puts there weapons in line with the flash light but allows more shots and to move and shoot. Somthing that can only be done in a grey knight army. Come to think of it that would work realy well with the greay knight army.

The vetrens sould stay as is but with a +1 to cover save or a reroll of some kind. These would show them using the cover they got as best as "humenly possable". And give them the vet sarge Id to show that there stubern old gits and are not ready to leave just yet.

Then your options is between Vetrens and Storm Stroopers looks intristing. You got cheaper guard with more fire power beter ld and bs +1 cover.

Then you have the less powerfull shots but able to move and shoot out in the open jumping to building to building torching things or have the enemy chase them.

So this with the grenader and storm trooper doctoner or veterunes gives you two new play meathods.

You eather have moblie guard that can fire more shots and can stay in the open for a short time(offensive) or (deffenive) guard with more anti tank or ap2 that make a beter fie base.

Chimars sould be armor 11 on the side. How is it that a tau skimmer hasbeter armor then a tank? Are not skimmers lighter? If there armor is stronger but still light then why wont there tanks have armour 14? That just does not make scene.

Guard shot guns sould be st3 but reroll to wound. This won't make there stander weapon kill tanks but will mean the same thing as st4 vs t4. I did the math.

Guard troops sould be able to trade there las guns for shot guns. Rember they are not going to win a close combat and wit would be fun to make a squad look like combat engerners.

There sould be an alternet bassilsk. Insted of direct fire you just upgrade it and to give it beter armor 14 13 11 Armoured crew. Jagdpanther Tank Destroyer had the best german tanks. It was easyer to make then the tiger and with its armored plates angel to deflect enemy fire made it more effecent. The draw backs to it was the gun was fixed so if it moved to aim made it easy to spot. Being compared to the tiger made the Jagdpanther Tank Destroyer an assult tank and the tiger a deffecive one.

I could go on with other things like carapace for ogryns but its 3am and I need sleep. I think this would be a step towords a more fun to play guard army while not just droping point cost or increase a gun streght for a quick fix.

(there sould be a sleeping icon) ^.^ zzzzz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper

Max1mum
10-02-2008, 06:40
I think that is what GW has been trying to do since the beginings of 4th edition. In the distant future of 40K around the year 2010 while 7th edition is floating around the rumours forums, a space marine will have the points price of 1 and the new guard codex rumours will be debating as to whether a guard will be .03 or .05 points while a standard game is still 1500 points and 3000 for Apocalypse.


omg ...are you serious buddy..:S

please did you even stop and rethink that line before i burst it open in to many ways possible -_-"

Dragonlv8
10-02-2008, 08:58
I think that is what GW has been trying to do since the beginings of 4th edition. In the distant future of 40K around the year 2010 while 7th edition is floating around the rumours forums, a space marine will have the points price of 1 and the new guard codex rumours will be debating as to whether a guard will be .03 or .05 points while a standard game is still 1500 points and 3000 for Apocalypse.

Owned.
Hmm, 1500 marines, 1 and a half chapters, damn thats nice.
Back to the topic of guardsmen, what about conscripts, 2 points ftw?

Baltar
10-02-2008, 09:48
People are paying way too much attention to conscripts, IMHO. I don't really care what happens to Conscripts - they were a waste of points anyway.

Plastic Parody
10-02-2008, 15:08
4pts???

That is a lot of Guard. Having said that, Orks are 6pts and arguably a lot better than a guardsman.

Still, Im looking forward to the rumoured/hinted at new plastic guard/storm troopers which might just make IG a lot more affordable if you dont like the Cadians.

Xenobane
10-02-2008, 16:37
omg ...are you serious buddy..:S

please did you even stop and rethink that line before i burst it open in to many ways possible -_-"

May I?

Whooooosh! :p

RSIxidor
10-02-2008, 17:58
Chimars sould be armor 11 on the side. How is it that a tau skimmer hasbeter armor then a tank? Are not skimmers lighter? If there armor is stronger but still light then why wont there tanks have armour 14? That just does not make scene.


I understand what you're saying, but its not exactly accurate. A skimmer can be heavier than a tank if it needs to be, as long as the anti-gravity technology and thrusters of the race employing it is up to the weight requirements.

I do think chimera's should be SA11 though, it would help, some at least.

Outlaw289
10-02-2008, 20:51
For Storm Troops they sould have Ws4 Bs4 S3 T3 A1 I3 Ld8 Sv4 and the grenades and targeters...ect. They are beter trained then vetrens. Vetrens are just soilders that seen combat but have'nt died. There hell gun sould be uqine.

Storm Troopers of the old days had a role in the greman army. It is to get realy close to the lines throw a bunch of grenades and run away before the enemy regroups.

Storm Troopers should have the option to have a demolition charge :angel:

unclejimbo827
10-02-2008, 21:02
I say:

45 pts/squad

or

50 pts/squad and 24" assault 2 lasgun

The Dude
10-02-2008, 21:47
In the end, that's what I was attempting say. :)

Oops :p When I read your post, I seem to have got the impression you were arguing that the suggested change would have no affect :rolleyes:

Sorry :D

freddy krueger
10-02-2008, 22:56
Hi,

I am an IG player since two years (have an army of fully paited 15000 pts :D). I love horde armies, never play below 175 models (ok, never play below 1750 points, most often 2000-2250) . A horde IG works well with the current rules too, I'm happy that they will be upgraded to this way in the new codex.

What about 4pts Guardsmen? I agree the 125423876 previous comments that it will be fair compared to the points costs of other horde armies, but it won't make a big change in the structure of the armies: I took 180 men, now I'll take 200. Simply no one will use it to make a 400 men strong basic footslogger army- I always make my army to have the max amount of men available, but can't make it above 210 from 2000-2200 pts.

Las/plas spam: stop MC and power armour spam, then we can think about it:)

Doctrines: I think they are all cool, and I hope all of them will be kept in some form. For example I always play with two conscript platoons of 50-50 men, indep. commi and close order drill- 3 not too popular doctrines. You can't imagine how effective and feared they are. The biggest hope I have that this combination will work in the 5th edition codex. But don't think they'll keep the current doctrine system.

More flexible list: altough human history showed thousand times that there isn't anything more flexible than an ideology working against it's worshipper's momentary interest, don't forget that the current restrictions are not only because of the contemporary codex writing fashion, but to model that the Imperial Guard has a very strict and inflexible organisation, not a flexible little warband like the others.

Maneuvering: a maneuvering IG will make all enemies happy- even if you make an extreme maneuverable army, you cant forerun most other armies (Eldar, Tau), you lose the heavy weapons, and you will unburden the CC enemies (=almost everyone).

Things needs to boost:
-advisors: make them free to join anywhere-I hope that it's gonna happen
-snipers: cool and fluffy, but almost useless-think it'll gonna happen, at least in form of the new general rules
-ogryn- they need a big price drop, or some improvement to make them more deadly in CC. Its nonsense that their gun has worse stats than a bolter.-think that'll gonna happen too
-frag grenades to the cavalry-think it'll gonna happen
-mortars: well,maybe a point drop, but now that horde armies return, they may be more useful even if unmodified

Finally: almost one and a half year till the new codex, anything is possible- what about a new fashion of codex-writing coming in, for example the return of the loads of special rules instead of the current ,,forget fluff, forget unique things, take everything"-approach?

Commander Duskstorm
10-02-2008, 23:27
I have heard both rumours (4 pt guard and an extra HS choice) and I like both. Guard are supposed to be a hoard army, but with the new ork 'dex the guard aren't looking too hoardy. How is it fair for Orks to have T4, 2AT basic, and stronger guns, not to mention coming in possible 30 man squads (which are fearless above 10 men), furious charge,and Waahhh! all for 6 pts. and yet guard are 6 pts. Seems to me the newer codex's ('Nids and Chaos included) are way overpowered compared to the older 'dex's. And as for the Doctrine's, I like the doctrine options for the most part. The part of the doctrine system I don't like is the restricted troops section, why shouldn't I be able to use EVERY type of unit available in my 'dex?

PS. I'm not saying the new 'dex's should be changed, but release updates for the rest of the codex's, for example, release a WD article stating that any army can use any special character no matter the point limit in the game. Why can Orks and the other new 'dex owners use special characters in any game? Is it fair for an Ork player to use Ghazakul Thraka in a 1000 pt. game when guard and other "older" armies need to have a certain number of points before they can choose to use special characters? Why are the "older" 'dex owners being screwed over? I believe this is part of the reason "older" 'dex owners comlplain about "newer" 'dex's, or at least having to wait for their "new" 'dex.

treben1234
11-02-2008, 06:02
yeah I was thinking about that today. How about the rhino and chimra comparson. The rhino is basicly a box with 3 doors and a large top hach and a turret hole. The chimra has no side doors. Its bigger then the rhino. So would that not have bigger engins to carry more armor? And about the top hatch. How is it that 2 marines can fire out of the top of there apc but not guard? The marines are about twise there size. So that makes there hatch 4 times bigger then the guards! Thats at least a 8 by 6 foot hatch. So if the guard count as open top if they shoot from it why not make it bigger so the special weapon guy can shoot to? In for a penny in for a pound.

setekhite
11-02-2008, 11:25
3rd Ed black book list and the IG Shooty Army from Hell, anyone?

5 pt guardsmen + cheap weapon options = army that could shoot any other to pieces in short order. It was the source of a lot of grief and led to the current IG costs. The Guard started the current system as 40K's strongest army and then got nerfed; it was admitted as much in the articles that accompanied the first v3 Guard Codex.

However, the metagame has moved on, and if v5 makes line of sight such an issue, then the danger of overwhelming numbers of infantry heavy weapons goes down. So, it's understandable if GW were revisiting a piece of game balance that is as old as the previous Ork codex...

Goq Gar
11-02-2008, 11:51
May I ask why on this good earth guardsmen would be lowered in points?

If it has something to do with the new ork's cost, as some have mentioned, then I feel compelled to point out that your average guardsman (6 pts) could easily kill an ork (6pts). Then add the fact that guardsmen can take, by volume, ALOT more special weapons than orks, have TONS of template weapons, etc.

If it has nothing to do with orks, then why would the guardsmen be lowered in cost? As of now they play very well every time I see them.

Axel
11-02-2008, 12:41
.. I feel compelled to point out that your average guardsman (6 pts) could easily kill an ork (6pts)....

Just like a Grot can easily kill a Termnitor, given some lucky dicing. Still they have different point costs. Why on earth is that so???

:rolleyes:


Sorry, but if you do not see the difference in quality between Orks and Guardsmen then there is not much else to say.

Kriegsherr
11-02-2008, 12:49
May I ask why on this good earth guardsmen would be lowered in points?

If it has something to do with the new ork's cost, as some have mentioned, then I feel compelled to point out that your average guardsman (6 pts) could easily kill an ork (6pts). Then add the fact that guardsmen can take, by volume, ALOT more special weapons than orks, have TONS of template weapons, etc.


Care to go into more detail why you think a guardsmen is on par with an ork boy?
In 40k, almost everything could kill everything, and, granted, compared to a Space Marine, a guardsman will kill an ork much easier.

But the point that, apart from static shooting on 24", which will rarely occur thanks to the all-assault weapons of the ork boyz and the waagh rule, the boyz are better both in shooting and CC.

orks have a 14% kill chance per shot, IG Soldiers around 13%... add to that the fact orks get to shoot 2 shots more often and have the choice of staying 18" away to prevent the guardsmen from getting their second shot, and I'd say orks win when it comes to shooting, especially as soon as the squad has to move, to claim an objective for example, at the same time.

I don't think have to go into why Guardsmen are inferior in CC...


The point with the amount of special and heavy weapons is valid indeed, but as we can expect the point costs for this to go up, its kind of obsolete.



If it has nothing to do with orks, then why would the guardsmen be lowered in cost? As of now they play very well every time I see them.

Because right now, taking special and heavy weapons in infantry squads are no-brainers? And there shouldn't be ANY no-brainer choice in a well-balanced codex?

Goq Gar
11-02-2008, 14:10
In response to Sarcasm (I usually ignore sarcastic posts, but hey, i'm interested in the topic :) )

Your average Guardsman has higher Ballistic skill (in most cases), than an ork boy. An ork boy has a negligible armour save, and although he will get a save against a Lagun, it's not going to make much of a difference. Though his Strength is equal (if he gets the charge, which any mildly intelligent commander will try to get against orks) and initiative is higher, the toughness of orks gives them a persona of "combat invincibility", not true. A guardsman who strikes first can kill an Ork. And if the Guardsman army has any decent amount of shooting, there should be at least equal numbers of orks and Guardsmen when combat eventually arrives.

Your average guardsman, perfectly stat-wize is not on par with an Ork. That is fair enough to say. But a guardsman army can take a ****load more templates (most of them will instantly kill any green things underneath) than an Ork army. It is the availability of heavier weapons, and their ability to use them (across the board higher BS) that makes the guard army equal to that of orks.

All that's going to happen is that lower cost guard means alot more guns firing at orks getting closer. Math-wize, again, that puts it at near-impossible for a decent sized ork mob force to reach the guard in equal units.

I.e., take 200 points of guardsmen (50 of them) and 200 points of Orks (33 of them). The Guardsmen are better at shooting, and have longer range weapons (we assume all of them have lasguns for example purposes). Math hammer: The Orks are within 24" range. They can now be fired upon. 50 shots are fired. 25 shots hit. 8.325 wound. 6.9375 remain after saves. Approximately 7 orks are dead. 26 remain. Assuming the orks have charged forwards and run during the shooting phase, but are unable to charge this turn. They are in rapid fire range. 50 guardsmen shoot at 33 orks. 100 shots fired. 50 lasguns hit. 16.65 wound. 13.875 wounds remain after saves. About 14 orks die. 12 remain.

We have to assume the Orks have sluggas for the above to be true. So they fire back as they charge. 12 shots are fired. 4 hit. 2.664 wound. 1.75824 remain after saves. Approximately two guardsmen die.

There are now 48 Guardsmen left to deal with 12 Orks in combat. Even Guardsmen can handle that.

Lets assume the orks have taken shootas instead of sluggas and choppas.

The Orks are within 24" range. They can now be fired upon. 50 shots are fired. 25 shots hit. 8.325 wound. 6.9375 remain after saves. Approximately 7 orks are dead. 26 remain.

They move forward and shoot in their shooting phase.

52 shots are fired. 17.316 hit. 11.42856 wound. 7.5428496 remain after saves. So 8 guardsmen die. 42 remain. The Guardsmen move forwards to obtain maximum firepower, and prevent one ork round of shooting before the assault. 100 shots fired. 50 lasguns hit. 16.65 wound. 13.875 wounds remain after saves. About 14 orks die. 12 remain.

The Orks that remain move forwards and fire, 24 shots are fired, 8 hit, 5.328 wound, 3.548488 remain after saves. 4 guardsmen die. 38 guardsmen remain.

Now 12 orks, without the combat bonuses of choppas and sluggas, charge forward. They're even weaker than ordinary orks. The Guardsmen have only 10 less men, and can still easily deal with the orks.

Point for point, the Guardsmen beat a footslogga list anyday.

Now take into account low armour values for orks versus astonishing antitank weaponry in most guard armies, the massive amount of templates in most guard armies should kill most of the orks in the first two turns.

Orks have poor antitank weaponry to be kind, and a few leman russes should destroy an ork army swiftly.

Point officially made.

Goq Gar

totgeboren
11-02-2008, 15:22
your math is abit of (you forgot to remove the guardsmen that where killed by shooting), but still, in a straight up fight, where everyone is within range and los all the time (which doesn't happen) 4 pts guardsmen would win over equal point orks running towards them.

But, 6 pts guardsmen vs 6 pts orks will be defeated by the orks quite easily, and that tells me 6 prs for a standard guardsman might be abit high.

Also what you are forgetting is that 50 guardsmen vs 33 ork is basically 5 squads of guardsmen vs 1 full ork mob.
It looks like the different guardsmen squads will block los for eachother come 5:ed, and when one gets assaulted, they cant all hit back and so on.

I think that in a lab on a flat field, with one 50-man strong unit guardsmen vs one unit of 33 ork will result in a victory for the guardsmen.

But on a tabletop, with terrain, 5 10-man units of guardsmen vs say one unit of 30 boys would be an even fight.

Kriegsherr
11-02-2008, 15:29
In response to Sarcasm (I usually ignore sarcastic posts, but hey, i'm interested in the topic :) )

Your average Guardsman has higher Ballistic skill (in most cases), than an ork boy. An ork boy has a negligible armour save, and although he will get a save against a Lagun, it's not going to make much of a difference. Though his Strength is equal (if he gets the charge, which any mildly intelligent commander will try to get against orks) and initiative is higher, the toughness of orks gives them a persona of "combat invincibility", not true. A guardsman who strikes first can kill an Ork. And if the Guardsman army has any decent amount of shooting, there should be at least equal numbers of orks and Guardsmen when combat eventually arrives.

Your average guardsman, perfectly stat-wize is not on par with an Ork. That is fair enough to say. But a guardsman army can take a ****load more templates (most of them will instantly kill any green things underneath) than an Ork army. It is the availability of heavier weapons, and their ability to use them (across the board higher BS) that makes the guard army equal to that of orks.

<math hammering snipped>

Point officially made.

Goq Gar


Well, you forget two important things:

1) a clever ork player will see that his precious boyz will a) reach 18" as fast as possible, b) are not visible to the guardsmen until they do or c) are safe while the IG Player is occupied shooting more high priority targets to bits.

2) a clever ork player won't always head for CC even though his boyz will mash IG Dudes even worse in CC, especially with shooty ork lists, sneaking through cover just in shoota range and using and abusing the assault type and longer range on the move of their weapons can give a static IG army a headache, especially in take and hold and other objective based missions (this is what all missions are rumoured to be in 5th *hint, hint*)

3) The notion that IG right now can take more heavy weapons is simply not true... orks can take 5 ordonances, their assault slots can be filled with up to 12 short-ranged HB-equivalents, their transports are less than half as expensive as a chimera and still carry a HB-equiv, and the elites can be made up complety of heavy flamer, rocket launcher or autocannon equivs.
True, they have less BS, but the point costs are even only about half as much as IG-Equivalents in some cases, while the CC capabilities or armour is just better in others, or they simply have twin-linked weapons or are staffed by grots... so it might be that the normal mobs only have one special weapon per ten, while IG has two, but this and the BS is offset by higher strength weapons, more firepower on the move, and higher resilence despite lower armour (cover rocks!)...

Okay, that were three points, but I think I also successfully have proven were your assumptions were flawed.

t-tauri
11-02-2008, 15:45
This has long since ceased to be rumour related. Moved to 5th edition discussion.

Vaktathi
11-02-2008, 16:46
In response to Sarcasm (I usually ignore sarcastic posts, but hey, i'm interested in the topic :) )

Your average Guardsman has higher Ballistic skill (in most cases), than an ork boy. An ork boy has a negligible armour save, and although he will get a save against a Lagun, it's not going to make much of a difference. Though his Strength is equal (if he gets the charge, which any mildly intelligent commander will try to get against orks) and initiative is higher, the toughness of orks gives them a persona of "combat invincibility", not true. A guardsman who strikes first can kill an Ork. And if the Guardsman army has any decent amount of shooting, there should be at least equal numbers of orks and Guardsmen when combat eventually arrives.

Your average guardsman, perfectly stat-wize is not on par with an Ork. That is fair enough to say. But a guardsman army can take a ****load more templates (most of them will instantly kill any green things underneath) than an Ork army. It is the availability of heavier weapons, and their ability to use them (across the board higher BS) that makes the guard army equal to that of orks.

All that's going to happen is that lower cost guard means alot more guns firing at orks getting closer. Math-wize, again, that puts it at near-impossible for a decent sized ork mob force to reach the guard in equal units.

I.e., take 200 points of guardsmen (50 of them) and 200 points of Orks (33 of them). The Guardsmen are better at shooting, and have longer range weapons (we assume all of them have lasguns for example purposes). Math hammer: The Orks are within 24" range. They can now be fired upon. 50 shots are fired. 25 shots hit. 8.325 wound. 6.9375 remain after saves. Approximately 7 orks are dead. 26 remain. Assuming the orks have charged forwards and run during the shooting phase, but are unable to charge this turn. They are in rapid fire range. 50 guardsmen shoot at 33 orks. 100 shots fired. 50 lasguns hit. 16.65 wound. 13.875 wounds remain after saves. About 14 orks die. 12 remain.

We have to assume the Orks have sluggas for the above to be true. So they fire back as they charge. 12 shots are fired. 4 hit. 2.664 wound. 1.75824 remain after saves. Approximately two guardsmen die.

There are now 48 Guardsmen left to deal with 12 Orks in combat. Even Guardsmen can handle that.

Lets assume the orks have taken shootas instead of sluggas and choppas.

The Orks are within 24" range. They can now be fired upon. 50 shots are fired. 25 shots hit. 8.325 wound. 6.9375 remain after saves. Approximately 7 orks are dead. 26 remain.

They move forward and shoot in their shooting phase.

52 shots are fired. 17.316 hit. 11.42856 wound. 7.5428496 remain after saves. So 8 guardsmen die. 42 remain. The Guardsmen move forwards to obtain maximum firepower, and prevent one ork round of shooting before the assault. 100 shots fired. 50 lasguns hit. 16.65 wound. 13.875 wounds remain after saves. About 14 orks die. 12 remain. (how did you get 100 lasgun shots from 42 Guardsmen?)



The Orks that remain move forwards and fire, 24 shots are fired, 8 hit, 5.328 wound, 3.548488 remain after saves. 4 guardsmen die. 38 guardsmen remain.

Now 12 orks, without the combat bonuses of choppas and sluggas, charge forward. They're even weaker than ordinary orks. The Guardsmen have only 10 less men, and can still easily deal with the orks.

Point for point, the Guardsmen beat a footslogga list anyday.

Now take into account low armour values for orks versus astonishing antitank weaponry in most guard armies, the massive amount of templates in most guard armies should kill most of the orks in the first two turns.

Orks have poor antitank weaponry to be kind, and a few leman russes should destroy an ork army swiftly.

Point officially made.

Goq Gar



You are also forgetting that Orks can take just as many if not *more* heavy weapons in their army for fewer points (loota's, tankbustas, flash gitz, big gunz etc). Functionally for shooting the Guardsmen have an identical armor save against most attacks.

Orks can also get just as many template/blast weapons if not more, everyone thinks IG are the king of such things when they really are not.

And while they have a harder time against AV14 than other armies, a couple Leman Russ tanks certainly will not come anywhere near "Swiftly destroying an ork army". Its really not hard, powerklaws on bikes or the popular Zagstrukk hitting side or rear armor really isn't too hard, Zzap guns still have the ability to hurt them, and loota's will put one down instantly if side armor is exposed. Bomb squigs and Tank Busta's can still do a number on a Russ if they get close.

Against anything thats not an AV14 tank, the Orks now have the best unit for dealing with them in the game (loota's).

Also don't forget that while the basic Boy may be slow, the rest of the army can be *very* fast and at the same time *very* shooty and still pretty killy (deffkopta jetbikes, warbikes, trukks, warbuggies, stormboyz, etc)

Sabreur
12-02-2008, 01:20
I don't know why I am getting involved, as it seems this is a touchy subject...

Anyway, its true that stat-wise, guard are not equal to Orks. Its also true that Orks are easy to kill and therefore were made cheaper. Perhaps GW got carried away with their points-drop though....now it seems to keep things 'fair', IG players want a drop too...soon Marines players will be crying for 12 pt marines :)

Well, in all honesty, as an Eldar/Dark Eldar player, I find IG very easy to beat...maybe I haven't met any savvy IG players, but it seems they need a boost somehow. Perhaps a point drop (I would hesitate to go so low as 4, but maybe 5?) would help them.

Math-hammer aside, when it comes down to real battles, old orks and IG don't seem to me as competitive....the new Orks codex hopefully boosted them without going too far...but in any event, I agree that the IG need something too. perhaps a drop in points is all it will take. I hope not access to more heavy weapons though, since they have the most of any army in 40k.

GW seems about 50/50 when it comes to releasing new codexes (good: Eldar & Orks vs. Bad: Chaos Space Marines and Dark Angels). If Daemons are poorly done, then there's a good chance IG will be done well, but if Daemons get a good representing, then IG might not fair so hotly in the new 'dex. Time will tell :)

Varath- Lord Impaler
12-02-2008, 01:25
In my testdex ive tried removing heavy weapons from Most Infantry squads and increasing the amount of Anti tank and support squads the player could buy has made the army much more flexible, manouvrable and strong.

It helps that i reduced guardsmen to 5 points and gave the 2 special weapons per infantry squad (and heaps of other changes :P) but eh.

If anyone wants to look, check my sig (Shameless plug)

My thought is that while dropping to 4 points each may be alright, its a very boring change.

Orks get furious charge , Dark angels get veterans and grenades...we get an army of lasguns and the guts to show up to tournaments with them.

madprophet
12-03-2008, 01:28
A price reduction in guardsmen would be okay by me as long as GW gives me plastic Valhallans/Death Korps. I have an all metal Valhallan army - 2 rifle platoons of 2 squads each and a heavy weapons platoon. If I could get plastic Valhallans, GW would definitely see a couple of purchases out of me. I would expand each platoon to three squads, and perhaps add a third platoon. (that's three boxes of figs, at $35 a pop). If GW adds a one female torso per sprue... extra glee!

Imperial Guards should be massive armies, so a reduction in price - perhaps to 5 pts would be fine by me.

My regiment uses the Iron Discipline, Heavy Weapons Platoons, Stormtroopers, Drop Troops, and Light Infantry Doctrines. My understanding is that GW intends to keep Doctrines/Traits for the next edition - maybe even expand the concept to other armies as well.

starlight
12-03-2008, 01:46
Rumours and recent books indicate the exact opposite for Doctrines and Traits. Given the direction recent armies have gone, I'm thinking that you may have been misled. It looks like HQ selections will enable you to take units that would normally be Elite/FA/HS as Troops, and certain character upgrades will allow further unit upgrades.

madprophet
12-03-2008, 02:34
Rumours and recent books indicate the exact opposite for Doctrines and Traits. Given the direction recent armies have gone, I'm thinking that you may have been misled. It looks like HQ selections will enable you to take units that would normally be Elite/FA/HS as Troops, and certain character upgrades will allow further unit upgrades.

You may well be right. I am not a GW insider, so all I have are rumors and hearsay.

Still if they leave me with a way to personalize my regiment - I'll be happy. Oh, and plastic Valhallan figs, I would really like those :D

Mandragola
12-03-2008, 09:33
Rumours and recent books indicate the exact opposite for Doctrines and Traits.

I don't think that's necessarily accurate. The ork and dark eldar books, two of the newest ones around, both allow for pretty substantial modifications of the army lists by taking different HQs.

Admittedly it isn't the same as being able to hand out vet skills and special equipment to everyone you want, but there are some very big changes you can make to the standard lists if you feel like it.

I think you could reasonably claim that both of these lists are in fact a lot more adaptable than their 4th edition versions.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we saw IG armies being allowed Leman russ tanks as troops in some situations and probably to a limited extent.

Goq Gar
12-03-2008, 09:40
Simple Logic:

Guard will not be made 4 points.

A) They are hyper-modern by GW standards based on updates, and are not going to be changed any time soon.
B) There is no need to. If you're not winning, making the game easier is not the answer.
C) GW playtests every army against new armies to check for unbalance. As the major moaning is about orks, lets use them. GW have obviously decided the orks are balanced against guard. Heck, the guard are the perfect force to fight orks you fools! Lots of meat to get in the way, LOTS of big templates, LOADS of firepower... Sometimes it's like I dont even know you anymore ;_;

Russell's teapot
12-03-2008, 09:55
C) GW playtests every army against new armies to check for unbalance.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahah
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Sorry, really couldn't resist that!

RT

Goq Gar
12-03-2008, 10:45
... wow. What a completely necessary post. I feel compelled to do something with fire.

Anyway...

Guardsmen. I can see how some would think they need to be lowered in cost, as this is no new argument, it simply has gained some momentum with the new ork release.

Admittedly, they seem a bit overpriced for what they do/can do. However, this is balanced by their availability of super-killy things, i.e. basilisks, leman russes, relatively low cost special weapons, and of course, the fact you can customize them very well. Carapace armour, camo, etc.

Crazy_Irish
12-03-2008, 10:47
The ork and dark eldar books, two of the newest ones around.....
....I think you could reasonably claim that both of these lists are in fact a lot more adaptable than their 4th edition versions....


?:confused:? You are kidding, are you? Dark Eldar one of the newest ones around? wtf? 4th edition version? ......:wtf:

Dark Eldar are still stuck in 3rd edition, and will hopfully get an update after Marines. and neither Orks or Dark Eldar had a 4th edition version....

With the modifikations you had, you are right, but they took that away from the new orks. sadly.

ontopic: 4p Guardsman, that would be cool, as that would realy show the Mass of the Imperial Guard. but i guess 5p would be just fine.

TheDean
12-03-2008, 10:52
Simple Logic:

Guard will not be made 4 points.

A) They are hyper-modern by GW standards based on updates, and are not going to be changed any time soon.


IIRC, There is a 2009 IG-Dex release halfway confirmed.

Goq Gar
12-03-2008, 11:29
IIRC, There is a 2009 IG-Dex release halfway confirmed.

Oh really? Cool, thanks for the correction.

I'll have to look this out...

StraightSilver
12-03-2008, 12:14
As a guard player I would say that although in the current version of the Codex they are a pretty difficult army to win with, i don't think they are drastically over points costed, even compared to the newer Codexes like Orks.

I almost always manage to field a substantial amount of Infantry and tanks, and so think that a drop from 60pts per squad to 40pts would be pretty drastic.

I had heard that Guard would be dropped to 5pts per model so that standard squads could be a nice round 50pts before upgrades.

The only reason therefore that i could see Guard being dropped to 4pts per model would be that maybe in the new Dex a heavy weapon will be mandatory akin to Eldar Guardians?

Perhaps a squad of ten including a Heavy Bolter coming in at 50pts, which can then be upgraded as normal.

This is of course wild speculation on my part so feel free to rip that to pieces, LOL!

However there are a few things that I think do need addressing, and points drops for these might be beneficial.

I would like to see a 10pt drop in the cost of a Chimera. I know that not everybody agrees with this but I think the base cost combined with the cost of the mandatory Hull and turret weapons makes the Chimera too prohibitive when compaired with the cost of a Rhino.

I also agree that Ogryns are rarely used as they too are overpriced points wise (and money wise but hey that's a whole other thread!).

I have also heard the rumur of an extra Heavy Support choice for the Guard from Jervis' interview, and although as a Guard player I would relish the idea I just think that it is too unfair for other players to play against an army that has access to an alternate version of the FOC specific to their Codex. Also didn't the Iron Warriors used to get this but it was taken away from them?

I think that as they have strenuously stated that there would be no rules for Armoured Companies in the new Codex (apparently all tank armies should be reseved for Apocolypse) that it is unlikely that we will see Leman Russ' as a troops choice. However maybe we could have a special Character in the Codex who comes with a Leman Russ, akin to Sammael of the Ravenwing? This would free up a Heavy slot for something else?

Just some ramblings on my part. :)

OverchargeThis!
12-03-2008, 12:32
I, too ,was thinking about the modified heavy support section. Might be better to expand the elites section to include a heavy support choice, with maybe a higher ballistic skill (for quite a few extra points) rating rather than allow the extra fourth slot. This opens the door to potentially six heavy support units, but crowd out the selection of other elites choices.

This is wild speculation as well.

Ollieb
12-03-2008, 13:06
UGH I hope they don't get reduced to 4 pts each. I'd have to paint another platoon just to get my list back to the same point value it currently is. Not really that difficult but since my IG army is made up of Skaven minis I'll need to find another 30 bare Lasguns to put on them. It took me over 6 months to get enough together the first round. I'd also hate to have to fit that many IG in my deployment zone.

StraightSilver
12-03-2008, 13:58
Just been thinking about this some more.

If standard Guardsmen did get a 2pt drop where would you draw the line? What happens to Conscripts, do they then go down to 2pts per model?

That would be crazy IMO.

I suppose one of the most deciding factors though will be the 5th edition rules.

If friendly troops really do block line of fire then my current IG army is screwed!

A 33% drop in points would only make this worse (assuming I used the new surplus points to buy more infantry), as it is hard enough to deploy effectively as it is.

There will also be subtle things like the change to sniper rifles. ratlings now hitting on a 3+ instead of a 2+, and with their statline remaining as is are they really worth 11pts compared to a standard Guardsmen? (ok, I know 11pts is actually dirt cheap, but maybe it won't seem so in 5th edition).

And what of the rumour to drop Doctrines from the new Codex?

My hope is that rather than scrap them completely, some of them will be incorporated as squad upgrades.

For example, allowing squads to buy Carapace armour as an upgrade rather than using a Doctrine, or dropping the 0-1 restriction on hardened Vets etc?

If they are gone completely then I know a lot of long term / vet IG players will have to completely rewrite their army lists.

And then there's the new "run" ability. I think this will have a huge impact on Guard players, both negative and positive.

IG are not an assault army, but they do have access to a huge amount of Rapid Fire (in other words 12") weaponry. I rarely advance with my infantry as I normally have heavy weapon squads in there, which means that 90% of my squads are often there as extra wounds!

However with the rumoured 5th edition casualty removal, combined with the run move I can see a lot of IG players forgoing heavy weapons in squads and running them up to make use of all those lasgun shots, which can often do the trick just by sheer weight of numbers alone.

Having said that the run move works the other way around too, and will have a much, much greater impact on IG.

It doesn't take much to clobber a Guardsman in Close Combat (unless you play Tau, LOL!), and now every army will be closing the distance in half the time if they feel so inclined.

I think the days of massed ranks of Guardsmen deploying on their back line and shooting for six turns (if they last that long) are over.

Now our own troops will block our sightlines, and we'll be in close combat before we've had even three turns of shooting.

On reflection maybe even 4pts is too much.....

Brimstone
12-03-2008, 14:03
This has nothing to do with 5th edition and contains no real rumours so I'm going to move it to 40K General.

The Warseer Inquisition