PDA

View Full Version : Cyphus Caine (sp?) book and Pariahs



Achor
06-02-2008, 16:47
Ok, my friend was telling me about the Cyphus Caine book that he is reading at the moment and he was telling me about a part when the null character goes near some/a Pariah(s) and nullifies there aura. Now this is what i dont understand, a null nullifies phycic presence and thus powers afaik whereas a pariah is effectifly a null of sorts its self and thus oits powers wouldnt be phycic based.

Now is there something im missing with Pariahs and null or is this a mistake in the authors part because im a big fan of necron fluff and now my friend believes there powers are warp based (strenghened by the encrons also using warp portals in the book) which doesnt seem right.

Ninjaguiden
06-02-2008, 16:57
Ok, my friend was telling me about the Cyphus Caine book that he is reading at the moment and he was telling me about a part when the null character goes near some/a Pariah(s) and nullifies there aura. Now this is what i dont understand, a null nullifies phycic presence and thus powers afaik whereas a pariah is effectifly a null of sorts its self and thus oits powers wouldnt be phycic based.

Now is there something im missing with Pariahs and null or is this a mistake in the authors part because im a big fan of necron fluff and now my friend believes there powers are warp based (strenghened by the encrons also using warp portals in the book) which doesnt seem right.

I can with almost 100% certainty say that your friend is wrong. Necrons never use any kind of warpbased technology, it is anathema to them and their C'tan masters. Their portals are based on the C'tan and Necrontyr mastery of the materium (as opposed to the immaterium, the warp) and their abillity to almost bend its laws.

As for the pariah, I have no good answer. I have read said book myself and was also confused. But my theory is that null+null=null, they are as dead to eachother as they are to psychers.

But I belive that there is a difference between a pariah and a blank, blanks do not affect psykers as much as a pariah. I don't think that there is clear link between pariahs and blanks, pariahs are definatly influenced by the Necrons, but maybe not the blanks of the universe.

TrooperTino
06-02-2008, 17:08
I allways thought Paiahs were made from human DNA? The so called pariah gene.

Mechanicus
06-02-2008, 17:12
I can with almost 100% certainty say that your friend is wrong. Necrons never use any kind of warpbased technology, it is anathema to them and their C'tan masters. Their portals are based on the C'tan and Necrontyr mastery of the materium (as opposed to the immaterium, the warp) and their abillity to almost bend its laws.Seconded - and you might want to note that the majority of the Imperial elite has little to no knowledge of what exactly these portals are, so to jump to the conclusion they use the warp is understandable.

Which book is he reading, your friend?

Ninjaguiden
06-02-2008, 17:13
I allways thought Paiahs were made from human DNA? The so called pariah gene.

They are, but the C'tan planted it in the human genepool.

Malforus
06-02-2008, 17:14
I am unable to speak to the difference between Pariahs and blanks, but I can speak to the reference of warp portals.
Remember that throughout the Caine series he is a very unreliable narrorator and as such makes mistakes: claiming things differently then reality, rationalizing his actions, and more. His claim that they used warp portals was probably due to his very intimate knowledge of chaos...Slannesh a true man's weakness...and he drew a conclusion based upon what he knew. So I wouldn't start a kurfluffle over that item.

Chaplain of Chaos
06-02-2008, 17:15
It could just be an artistic liberty.

Ninjaguiden
06-02-2008, 17:24
Well, the book isn't canon and sometimes I think that we gamers are unable to put ourselves in the mind of your avrage 40k human. To us, orks are bioengineered warriors who can't do anything but fight, they were built for that sole purpose.

But for a human who doesn't share out divine sight, the orks are just barabarians who attack for no reason at all.

Chaplain Dionitas
06-02-2008, 17:35
As Malforus and NinjaGuiden stated, the book is basically the memoirs of Ciaphas Caine. It's written from his point of view and has footnotes inserted by an Inquisitor (Amberly) of the Ordo Xenos

Mechanicus
06-02-2008, 18:02
Well, the book isn't canon and sometimes I think that we gamers are unable to put ourselves in the mind of your avrage 40K human. To us, orks are bioengineered warriors who can't do anything but fight, they were built for that sole purpose.

But for a human who doesn't share out divine sight, the orks are just barabarians who attack for no reason at all.Well, the book is canon, as are all GW products, but that doesn't alter the rest of his post - humans are fallible, especially to ignorance. :)

Chaplain Dionitas
06-02-2008, 18:56
Well, the book is canon, as are all GW products, but that doesn't alter the rest of his post - humans are fallible, especially to ignorance. :)


That's purely your point of view. If a book from a dark eldars point of view comes out regarding the imperium does it mean that it's canon? That's just basically saying that any book that comes out must be the truth because GW put it out.

DantesInferno
06-02-2008, 19:24
That's purely your point of view. If a book from a dark eldars point of view comes out regarding the imperium does it mean that it's canon? That's just basically saying that any book that comes out must be the truth because GW put it out.

I was going to write a long-winded reply, but then I realised I could just direct you to look at Mechanicus' signature helpfully located in the post above yours..

:cool:

Fulgrim's-Chosen
06-02-2008, 19:46
I think what the author was trying to do in that Cain passage, was show that the Pariahs are unique amongst the Necrons since they do contain Human Elements / Genes / base - as opposed to the near-fully mechanical Necron troopers, Immortals, etc.

Remember that Pariahs have the "Pariah Gene" - which supposedly generates a negative Warp Presence and projects that aura which interferes with normal Psykers. The fact that their aura/gene is based off (even if in a negative, repelling way) some aspect of Psychic power - - - the Blank (completely immune to Psy effects and generating a Psy-power nullifying field naturally), "scrambled" the Pariahs brains/etc. for a few moments, which allowed Cain and the others to get away.

It's not to say that the Necrons are "Psykers", or even that the Pariahs are....but rather, that they have a unique power, from their Pariah Gene, to affect normal Psykers (with their aura) - but the fact that a Blank scrambles all that stuff completely - just messed them up for a few moments, which was all Cain and the team needed to deal with the situation // get out of there !

--------------------------

And on the Warp Portals - I think Cain is reflecting that they teleported things - as a normal Human Teleporter device would - - - Cain is assuming it's through the Warp, but it's probably (knowing Necron advanced tech) something like a Star Trek teleporter (purely Science based, no Warp Space travel actually involved).

Since Cain is hardlyl a mech-genius, and would really have no way of knowing EXACTLY how the Necron portals work, it's pretty reasonable that he would think (and write in his memoirs, which you are reading when you read the books) that it was a "Warp Portal" - like the Warp-based teleporters he'd seen and used before in the Imperium.

Damien 1427
06-02-2008, 19:47
That's purely your point of view. If a book from a dark eldars point of view comes out regarding the imperium does it mean that it's canon? That's just basically saying that any book that comes out must be the truth because GW put it out.

I know Mechanicus has it in his sig, but...

Canon isn't what's "true". The Caine Memoirs are canon. They're an official Black Library product. You cannot argue they are not canon. They aren't, however, Eye of God out of character background pieces. They're in-character fiction, the diaries of a character from within the 40k setting.

Whether or not Caine is right about everything he says, however, is up for debate. But they're very much a canon piece... Odds are, if you were an Inquisitor within the post-Thirteenth Black Crusade Imperium, you could perhaps request a copy of the uncensored Caine Memoirs, if you wanted a laugh.

Chaplain Dionitas
06-02-2008, 19:47
I'm Canon. Believe me

ChrisAsmadi
06-02-2008, 21:40
I allways thought Paiahs were made from human DNA? The so called pariah gene.

Yeah, the pariah gene is what makes untouchables, well, untouchable.

Jurgen has it.
Alizebeth Bequin and the Distaff have it.
Culexus Assasins have it.

And, most importantly...

Wystan Frauka has it.

And he can turn it off. My theory is that two nulls cancel each other out, or something, which explains the pariah shock. That or Cain's perspective is incorrect.

Capitano
07-02-2008, 00:24
well it is basic math guys

Blank-Blank=Zero...

common even the 3rd post guy knows this...

but I am assuming when I read the book that it only works for a time...because those same Necrons still ripped the Storm Trooper squad they were with appart...and showed them who was boss...

Critias
07-02-2008, 05:38
That's purely your point of view. If a book from a dark eldars point of view comes out regarding the imperium does it mean that it's canon? That's just basically saying that any book that comes out must be the truth because GW put it out.
Uhh, well, yeah. A book from the Dark Eldar's point of view, regarding the Imperium (or regarding normal Eldar, or regarding Chaos, or regarding Tau, or regarding that Dark Eldar's favorite ice cream flavor) would be canon. You're getting "truth" and "canon" mixed up, though.

It is very much canon -- Ciaphas Cain thought they were using Warp portals. That is a simple fact. The book is correct, the book is right, the book is canon. That is what Ciaphas Cain thought. The book is not lying, it is genuinely sharing Cain's assumption.

...but that doesn't mean it's true, because (in this case) Ciaphas was wrong.

To put it another way, if I am convinced that Paris is the capital of Germany, you can hook me up to a lie detector test, and I will be telling the truth when I say "Paris is the capital of Germany." I won't be right, but I also won't be lying, I'll just be wrong.

In much the same way, Cain isn't lying. The book isn't lying. The book is still canon, when it says that's what Cain thinks. Everything the Black Library publishes is canon. But that doesn't mean every little scrap of text and stray sentence here and there is true.

qsd
07-02-2008, 07:49
Yeah, the pariah gene is what makes untouchables, well, untouchable.

Jurgen has it.
Alizebeth Bequin and the Distaff have it.
Culexus Assasins have it.

And, most importantly...

Wystan Frauka has it.
.
Actually, Jurgen isn't an untouchable, he's a blank.
----
Anyways, this is what each is:
Untouchable - The person's presence causes uneasiness and/or fear in non-Untouchables around them, particularly psykers.
Since they have "negative Warp energy", psychic powers don't affect them.

Blank - The person simply produces a null area where psychic powers don't work at all. The difference from the Untouchable's psychic null is that the Pariah gene only protects the gene bearer. A Blank's field protects the Blank, as well as others nearby, and it prevents the use of psychic powers within its area of effectiveness.
Unlike Untouchables, Blanks do not generate fear, and shouldn't really have an effect on non-psykers.
To clarify some things about Jurgen
-Normal people don't like to be around him because of his body odor and psoriasis, not because his abilities.
-Psykers are only disturbed/disoriented because they can't use their powers; Jurgen doesn't directly cause their fear, its their loss of their abilities that causes it. Since their ability is almost like another natural sense for psykers, I would imagine that it would be pretty confusing to have it suddenly removed.
----
I'm not too sure about the Pariahs though; personally I would say that Cain is making incorrect assumptions. The problem about the null-shock theory is that from it, we could also say that it would be impratical to group Untouchables together because of the shock; This isn't the case though - Pariahs are grouped into squads, Eisenhorn had the Distaff, and all of the Culexus Assassins share the same temple/fortress.

Brother Siccarius
07-02-2008, 23:53
Ok, my friend was telling me about the Cyphus Caine book that he is reading at the moment and he was telling me about a part when the null character goes near some/a Pariah(s) and nullifies there aura. Now this is what i dont understand, a null nullifies phycic presence and thus powers afaik whereas a pariah is effectifly a null of sorts its self and thus oits powers wouldnt be phycic based.

Now is there something im missing with Pariahs and null or is this a mistake in the authors part because im a big fan of necron fluff and now my friend believes there powers are warp based (strenghened by the encrons also using warp portals in the book) which doesnt seem right.

You have to realize that all of this (the Ciaphas Cain Books) is being told through a first person perspective of Cain writing his memoirs and putting it all in a collection of stories of his career. It's written the way that someone within the Imperium would see it.

Cain knows something about warp based teleporters (that it exists and can teleport you places). He has absolutely no idea what the Necron thing is other than that it plops you from point A to point B similar to the Imperium's Teleporter Tech. He calls it a warp portal because to him that's what it looks like, and the stories are written from his PoV.

He knows what a blank is, and that it nullifies psyker powers near him (you also see this in the Ravenor books), he has no idea what a Pariah is, and frankly we still don't even know if the two are intricately related in some way. We know that they are similar, but we don't know if they are the same, varying degrees of the same thing, a mutation of the Pariah gene, or just similar in effect.

I still haven't read anything about him nullifying a Pariah field.



Blank=Zero...
Pariah = -1

bosstroll
08-02-2008, 06:41
Whether or not Caine is right about everything he says, however, is up for debate. But they're very much a canon piece... Odds are, if you were an Inquisitor within the post-Thirteenth Black Crusade Imperium, you could perhaps request a copy of the uncensored Caine Memoirs, if you wanted a laugh.

Amberley actually states this in one of her forward, the Cain Archives are indeed "readilly available from an Ordo Xenos library, found in the restricted stacks" (paraphrased)

Brother Thuemoose
08-02-2008, 07:56
Actually, Jurgen isn't an untouchable, he's a blank.
----
Anyways, this is what each is:
Untouchable - The person's presence causes uneasiness and/or fear in non-Untouchables around them, particularly psykers.
Since they have "negative Warp energy", psychic powers don't affect them.

Blank - The person simply produces a null area where psychic powers don't work at all. The difference from the Untouchable's psychic null is that the Pariah gene only protects the gene bearer. A Blank's field protects the Blank, as well as others nearby, and it prevents the use of psychic powers within its area of effectiveness.
Unlike Untouchables, Blanks do not generate fear, and shouldn't really have an effect on non-psykers.
To clarify some things about Jurgen
-Normal people don't like to be around him because of his body odor and psoriasis, not because his abilities.
-Psykers are only disturbed/disoriented because they can't use their powers; Jurgen doesn't directly cause their fear, its their loss of their abilities that causes it. Since their ability is almost like another natural sense for psykers, I would imagine that it would be pretty confusing to have it suddenly removed.
----
I'm not too sure about the Pariahs though; personally I would say that Cain is making incorrect assumptions. The problem about the null-shock theory is that from it, we could also say that it would be impratical to group Untouchables together because of the shock; This isn't the case though - Pariahs are grouped into squads, Eisenhorn had the Distaff, and all of the Culexus Assassins share the same temple/fortress.


To add to what you wrote:
Blanks seem to have a limited area of effect. Witness Jurgan's disruption of the Genestealer Patriarch's telepathy, or the disruption of the Slanneshi cultist spell, or the pain he inflicted the Slanneshi daemon. These were all within a very short distance of the individuals involved.

Pariahs, on the other hand, are like a vortex in the warp. They can affect one's very soul. The Eldar are terrified of Culexus assassins. Their mere presence is deadly to psykers, and cause problems in normal humans (even normal humans don't want to be near them. Also, prolonged exposure seems to cause memory loss in those around the pariah).

No one wanted to be near Jurgan, that's been proven. However, there has never been reports of unexplained passage of time for individuals near him (they did not show signs of their memories being affected is what I mean).

Rirekon
08-02-2008, 08:30
well it is basic math guys

Blank-Blank=Zero...

common even the 3rd post guy knows this...

but I am assuming when I read the book that it only works for a time...because those same Necrons still ripped the Storm Trooper squad they were with appart...and showed them who was boss...

The fudemental problem here is that you're assuming they negate each other.

ie. Pysker + Psyker = lots of Warp power! (ala Seer Council and the like), so it should be Blank + Blank = even more blank!

Orca
08-02-2008, 17:51
IIRC - in the book the Pariah that Cain met was producing some sort of horror effect. Assuming that this is from the pariah gene - which in the Eisenhorn trilogy is labeled as a negative presence in the warp that upsets people around you. (paraphrasing of course, the books aren't in front of me.) In a Necron pariah, this revulsion is made into abject fear. Jurgen isn't a pariah, he's a blank who creates a null field in the warp.

Psyker: 1
Normal: 0
Pariah: -1
Blank: divide by zero error

So Jurgen's presence overcomes the anti-psycher ability of the pariah, like it overcomes the abilities of Amberlee's pet psyker in book one.

Brother Thuemoose
10-02-2008, 05:17
IIRC - in the book the Pariah that Cain met was producing some sort of horror effect. Assuming that this is from the pariah gene - which in the Eisenhorn trilogy is labeled as a negative presence in the warp that upsets people around you. (paraphrasing of course, the books aren't in front of me.) In a Necron pariah, this revulsion is made into abject fear. Jurgen isn't a pariah, he's a blank who creates a null field in the warp.

Psyker: 1
Normal: 0
Pariah: -1
Blank: divide by zero error

So Jurgen's presence overcomes the anti-psycher ability of the pariah, like it overcomes the abilities of Amberlee's pet psyker in book one.

Except it's not that simple. Psykers have different power levels. Even normal humans have some presence in the warp. Blanks would be 0, and pariahs would be -1. As I said before, pariahs cause the fear. Blanks simply don't do anything unless they are very close to psychic activity (in the case of daemons, in direct contact). Pariahs, on the other hand, need only be in the general area for their power to have an effect. In addition, your example would mean that extremely powerful psykers could overcome blanks (and therefore pariahs). After all, the Sisters of Silence were based on Terra (or somewhere in the Solar System). And yet, they had no effect on the Navigators for ships in orbit (or even on their own ships), or on the Astronomicon, or on Astrotelepaths (how else would the Sisters of Silence coordinate with the Death Guard in Flight of the Esinstein. They theoretically would effect even the Emperor.

I always took the Jurgan/Pariah example in The Caves of Ice as the fact that the Pariah noticed that Jurgan had no psychic presence, and mistook him for one of their own. Once it noticed that, it went about its business.

ChrisAsmadi
10-02-2008, 09:40
Actually, Jurgen isn't an untouchable, he's a blank.
----
Anyways, this is what each is:
Untouchable - The person's presence causes uneasiness and/or fear in non-Untouchables around them, particularly psykers.
Since they have "negative Warp energy", psychic powers don't affect them.

Blank - The person simply produces a null area where psychic powers don't work at all. The difference from the Untouchable's psychic null is that the Pariah gene only protects the gene bearer. A Blank's field protects the Blank, as well as others nearby, and it prevents the use of psychic powers within its area of effectiveness.

Alizebeth Bequin generates a similar aura.

And Jurgen does generate disgust in people, really, except it's regularly mistaken for his bad hygiene.

sulla
10-02-2008, 11:49
. After all, the Sisters of Silence were based on Terra (or somewhere in the Solar System). And yet, they had no effect on the Navigators for ships in orbit (or even on their own ships), or on the Astronomicon, or on Astrotelepaths (how else would the Sisters of Silence coordinate with the Death Guard in Flight of the Esinstein. They theoretically would effect even the Emperor.



...unless they used some sort of technology to 'switch off' their power when not needed? Presumably that is part of the reason for the big silly helmet the cullexis wear; to focus their power (both to amplify and shield their abilities). After all, the imperium rely so heavily on psychics that a cullexis could be more dangerous to them than to their enemies if there wasn't a way of 'turning them off' at least temporarily.

Second stringer
10-02-2008, 12:04
Just for record, the book in question is "Caves of Ice" by Sandy Mitchell, the second book featuring commissar Ciaphas Cain.

It's a very nice book in my opinion, as are the other Ciaphas Cain books, I sincerely recommend it. :D They have a slightly different humorous style of narration than the most wh40k books.

ChrisAsmadi
10-02-2008, 19:27
...unless they used some sort of technology to 'switch off' their power when not needed? Presumably that is part of the reason for the big silly helmet the cullexis wear; to focus their power (both to amplify and shield their abilities). After all, the imperium rely so heavily on psychics that a cullexis could be more dangerous to them than to their enemies if there wasn't a way of 'turning them off' at least temporarily.

Yeah, a limiter. Wystan Frauka, in the Ravenor novels, has one.

DragonPup
10-02-2008, 19:39
No one wanted to be near Jurgan, that's been proven. However, there has never been reports of unexplained passage of time for individuals near him (they did not show signs of their memories being affected is what I mean).

Well, that also has to do with his (lack of) personal hygeine.

Brother Siccarius
10-02-2008, 20:28
IIRC - in the book the Pariah that Cain met was producing some sort of horror effect. Assuming that this is from the pariah gene - which in the Eisenhorn trilogy is labeled as a negative presence in the warp that upsets people around you. (paraphrasing of course, the books aren't in front of me.) In a Necron pariah, this revulsion is made into abject fear. Jurgen isn't a pariah, he's a blank who creates a null field in the warp.

Psyker: 1
Normal: 0
Pariah: -1
Blank: divide by zero error

So Jurgen's presence overcomes the anti-psycher ability of the pariah, like it overcomes the abilities of Amberlee's pet psyker in book one.

Actually in a way that's very astute. You see, even a negative presence in the Warp is still a presence, so even the Pariah gene has some basis within the warp just by effecting it. The Blanks, however, seem to nullify everything warp-ish around them, including telepathy, powers, and presence. So a power that has any basis within the warp is nullified when near them, hence why the negative powers of a Pariah (still being an effect based in the warp) is nullified.

From what I can tell about Sisters of Silence, it's difficult to tell if they're Blanks or Pariahs. Though I should note that I have yet to read the "Visions" HH books.

We also know a few things about Pariahs, namely that a significantly powerful psyker can overcome them by simply being able to effect around the Pariah rather than at it, they can also "locate" the Pariah due to the intense fear generated by them (Eldar even located the supposed training grounds of the Culexus via this route). Jurgen is invisible or "nothing" to psykers, and is just passed by, which is somewhat important to note.

leo_neil316
10-02-2008, 20:56
Blanks and pariahs are the same thing.

Or, more specifically, certain people are born with the 'pariah' gene (now retconned to be the fault of the C'Tan!).

As with psykers the pariah gene has differing levels of power, some bearers are (for ease of example) merely 'untouchable' by psykers and deamons, some 'blank out' any warp based affects nearby and some are true 'pariahs' where the gene is so strong that they cause revulsion even in non-psykers and pain in any psyker that gets to close.

The imperium has lots of tech that can screw with blanks. Switching them on or amplifying the affects. The culexus and necron pariahs are the perfect examples of this. Both sides are on a constant hunt for bearers of the gene, nomatter how weak. After all they can use tech to get the affects to the level they need.

And jurgen gets noticed by psykers plenty. Infact the 'nothing' comment that rakel makes in for the emporer litterally involved her -freaking out because he's not generating a psykic field-. Since she can see him and unlike everyone else she's ever met he isn't showing up on her psydar she gets upset. The chaos sorceress in traitors hand (the one at the end) notices him plenty. Going so far as to call him a 'horrible little man', theres a psyker assasin in the latest one, not to mention the -three- psyker assasins later on, and the people around the books Macguffin.

Personally I reckon brother thuemoose is right about what happened in caves of ice (only my oppinion of course) and it's basically another case of Cain's good luck saving his ass. After all it was noted earlier that necrons can be 'strangely unobservant'.