PDA

View Full Version : a little revamped beastman lists



nurgle_boy
29-09-2005, 22:14
ok, after recieveing a few negative comments on my first beast lists, i whipped up these. a few units to tie up the enemy for a turn while all my luberly chariots move into position.

i know i spent loads on characters, but with units so cheap, i can afford to.

i know the chariots are marked. this is due to a loophole in the army book. and its only for friendly games, where they let me play it for ta characterfull army...
so, heres the 2k! 3k comes later

beastlord pestus the foul- armour of damnation, crown of horns, mark of nurgle, great weapon, chariot with mark of nurgle, bane shield=341
bray shaman corpus the foul- staff of darkoth, lvl2, lore of shadow=135
bray shaman gravis the wartbringer- power familiar, lvl2, lore of death=160
chaos sorcerer marnus the oozing- the plague chalice, spell familiar, mark of nurgle, daemonic steed=270

chariot with mark of nurgle=100
chariot with mark of nurgle=100
chariot with mark of nurgle=100
chariot with mark of nurgle=100
chariot with mark of nurgle=100
chariot with mark of nurgle=100

4 knights of chaos, full command, mark of nurgle=232

6 centigors, throwing axes, mus=127
6 centigors, throwing axes, mus=127


total=1992
a little small, i know, but im fed up of hordes, and i wanted a smaller hittier list. and dont worry, theyle be no clipping from me!

clangerman
29-09-2005, 23:12
this is due to a loophole in the army book.

There isnt such a loop hole.

Not particularly struck on the list, 6 chariots seem a bit much.

metro_gnome
29-09-2005, 23:50
i think it demostrates perfectly why there is no such loophole...
change those marks to tzeench "for fun" and see what happens...

Nekharoth
30-09-2005, 05:36
it seems to me that having a full command group for only 4 chaos knights is unnecessary. maybe i'm just thinking that as it leaves the regiment with only 1 normal trooper...

and as mentioned by others, the loophole does not exist:

Boc p55. the entry for the Tuskgor Chariot has no upgrade options for changing the mark of chaos. so you're stuck with the mark of Chaos Undivided, which really isn't such a bad thing for a chariot anyway.

BoC p61. lists marks of Nurgle and their points value for Lords, Shaggoths, Doombulls, Heroes, Regiments* and Minotaurs.

*nb. a chariot is not a regiment.


i think it demostrates perfectly why there is no such loophole...
change those marks to tzeench "for fun" and see what happens...

uh... ignoring for a moment that it's illegal anyway. if they had the mark of tzeentch they would generate an additional power dice per chariot (as per HoC chariots), so you would get a stack of extra power dice. there is nothing to prevent this in a HoC army, so i don't see why this "demonstrates perfectly why there is no such loophole".

nurgle_boy
30-09-2005, 09:26
i was thinking the hordes list chariot mark... but i guess undevided isnt too bad... but then my lord doesnt get a chariot, so it screws the list over...

ok, its not so much of a loophole, as a sort of... err... something
it says you can replace the mark of undivided, and there is a chariot mark cost in the hordes book...

eh, if it doesnt seem at all acceptable for friendly games, ill have to have a 'counts as' mortal list... most of my magic items can be switched between, but its a bit of a pain that you cant give best chariots the mark of nurgle form the hordes list...

Unseeing Eye
30-09-2005, 09:54
You don't even need to do count as. Just make the Sorcerer your General and switch the Chariots to Mortal Chariots.

Hrm...the "Sorcerer can't be general if there are other characters" rule doesn't apply for beast characters in a mortal list, right?

nurgle_boy
30-09-2005, 10:42
nah, ill just do a 'counts as' mortal list, with a rather hard beastlord. a special character of my own (rules legal) devising. and slightly harder beast chariots. the lack of movement speed can be represented by the bloating i guess...

well, back into exell to write a new list!

and here they are!
2k first. using a mix of mortal and beast. all of the army but the knights, and sorcerer are counts as beast units, to make a luverly legal list.

2k

exalted beastlord pestus the foul (chaos lord with mark of nurgle)-crown of everlasting conquest, armour of damnation, great weapon, shield, chariot of nurgle=484
chaos sorcerer marnus the oozing- the plague chalice, spell familiar, mark of nurgle, daemonic steed, lvl2=270
bray shaman gravis the wartbringer- power familiar, lvl2, lore of shadow=160

chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135

4 knights of chaos, champ, mus, mark of nurgle=232

5 warhounds=30
5 warhounds=30


total=1996


the knights and hound run off to engage combat, while the chariots move up inot position. the bray and sorcerer pelt some spells, the bray using steed of shadows (if he gets it) to move into better positions.

heres the 3K. less charitos due to the addition of 2 counts as aspiring champions. they ride in chariots, keping my 7 chariots there. the extra bray carries scrolls, and can pump out another spell or 2.
there are more cavalry, that can rush off, flank, and theyre all equipped to do either job. they can hold in combat, and damage things on a charge, or they can go around flanking.

more warghounds (im using converted wargs for them!) as bait, and flankers.
here goes!

3k


exalted beastlord pestus the foul (chaos lord with mark of nurgle)-crown of everlasting conquest, armour of damnation, great weapon, shield, chariot of nurgle=484
chaos sorcerer marnus the oozing- the plague chalice, spell familiar, mark of nurgle, daemonic steed, lvl2=270
bray shaman gravis the wartbringer- power familiar, lvl2, lore of shadow=160
bray shaman morbus the scab-lvl2, 2 scrolls, lore of shadow=160
favoured wargor hargroth the one eye- mark of nurgle, great weapon, chariot=259
favoured wargor hargroth the one eye- mark of nurgle, great weapon, chariot=259

chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135

4 knights of chaos, champ, mus, mark of nurgle=232

5 maurarder horsemen with throwing spears, shield, spear and musician=106
5 maurarder horsemen with throwing spears, shield, spear and musician=106

6 hounds=36
6 hounds=36
6 hounds=36
6 hounds=36

6 centigor, shields, gorehoof, musician=135
6 centigor, shields, gorehoof, musician=135

TOTAL=2990
#
only 60 models
a good amount of magic in each list, and theyre fairly small, elite, hit hard, and are fast. also vulnerable to some lists, such as heavy shooting, and ver resiliant units that dont break when charged, as the idea is to smash straight through the lines.

still, its a legal list this time, even if counts as, so, some C&C and tactics please!

nurgle_boy
30-09-2005, 10:43
oh, i might add it loks as though ive spent a whole lot on characters (about 1500pts) but remember that there are also 3 core choices there (a good 400+points) so only about 1/3rd of points on characters

Azhrahg
30-09-2005, 13:38
nah, ill just do a 'counts as' mortal list, with a rather hard beastlord. a special character of my own (rules legal) devising. and slightly harder beast chariots. the lack of movement speed can be represented by the bloating i guess...

well, back into exell to write a new list!

and here they are!
2k first. using a mix of mortal and beast. all of the army but the knights, and sorcerer are counts as beast units, to make a luverly legal list.

2k

exalted beastlord pestus the foul (chaos lord with mark of nurgle)-crown of everlasting conquest, armour of damnation, great weapon, shield, chariot of nurgle=484
chaos sorcerer marnus the oozing- the plague chalice, spell familiar, mark of nurgle, daemonic steed, lvl2=270
bray shaman gravis the wartbringer- power familiar, lvl2, lore of shadow=160

chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135
chariot of nurgle=135

4 knights of chaos, champ, mus, mark of nurgle=232

5 warhounds=30
5 warhounds=30


total=1996


the knights and hound run off to engage combat, while the chariots move up inot position. the bray and sorcerer pelt some spells, the bray using steed of shadows (if he gets it) to move into better positions.



I am not too impressed by the list - neither from a fluff perspective or a powerperspective. Fluffwise this list is ludicrous, but I guess you know that and don't care so I'll adress the powerperspective insted.
You mention that you are vulnerable to shooty armies, which is if anything an understatement. However you are as vulnerable to magic heavy lists. With 4 dispel dice and no dispel scrolls, magic heavy lists will massacre you, as your units are all vulnerable to damage spells - also movement spells will kill you, as you very much rely on the charge.
Furthermore you'll have problems against both units that doesn't break (dwarfs, undead, stubborn etc.) as well as faster units (bretonnian knights, elven knights, flyers etc.) as none of your units can take a charge. The only army you'll be very effective against is a slower army without much of a ranged threat.

This all sounds very negative, but it is mainly because I don't understand what your idea is with the list. Is it because you want a very powerfull list (because it looks that way at first glance) or is it because you find the image of a lot of pushinfested chariots cool, and want to make them?
If it is the first that is the point, then its back to the drawing table, but if it is the second, then by all means go ahead.

Azhrahg

Edit: forgot to help you with tactics. If you want to play the list, I think you'll need more hounds. These will both serve as an ablative shield, and help you make the charges. If you move a unit of hounds right in front of a fast and expensive unit but at an angle, it will either have to charge or stay put. If you have placed your chariots right, you will be able to charge him next turn regardless of which of the options he choose. Other hound units will perform similar tricks on other units to prevent them from supporting the unit you clubber. With enough hounds you can easily lure a couple of main units into a trap as well as keep a couple of others out of the fight for a turn. This is not a guarantied succes as it can be countered, but it will help you gain initiative regardless.

nurgle_boy
30-09-2005, 14:09
i dont want a horibly powerfull list, as itd be no fun, and if i did, i go talk to bro edwin :rolleyes:
i wanted something different from an orcy horde, and i like nurgle, and chariots!

as for the weakness, DOH! i forgot about scrolls... ill probebly drop the sorceres gear, and take a pair, giving me5 dispell dice (power familiar) and 2 scrolls...

as for shooting, i guess more hounds could be drafted in. theyre fast! at least faster than an orc army, and no doubt i could fre up some points. thanks for the tactics with them as well.

as for fluff, well, if i could have beast chariots with the MoN i would, but it seems people here dont like me taking advantage of using the hordes mark on my beast chariots...

really i could do with just my lords chariot marked, and the est as undivided beast chariots (therefor using one of my original lists) but im not sure. since its not for tourneys, just against my few regular opponents, they may let me, but heck, now im rambling...

i dunno, whaddayou people think? try and pursuade my friend to let me use a single mark from another book, for 15 points (i dont even care if the chariot causes fear or not, im only fussed about my lord being in one), or have to go down the rout of a ludicrously unfluffy odd army, that is utterly legal, but i bit weak?

metro_gnome
30-09-2005, 14:25
uh... ignoring for a moment that it's illegal anyway. if they had the mark of tzeentch they would generate an additional power dice per chariot (as per HoC chariots), so you would get a stack of extra power dice. there is nothing to prevent this in a HoC army, so i don't see why this "demonstrates perfectly why there is no such loophole".
100 points a die?
a saving of 40 points per die on an already questionable marking situation?
surely you jest...

Nekharoth
30-09-2005, 15:20
it says you can replace the mark of undivided, and there is a chariot mark cost in the hordes book...

sorry if i'm getting overzealous about this. but it doesn't say that anywhere. at all. ever! ...unless you happen to have an older version of the book which contains a misprint. but whatever the case, it certainly isn't there anymore. so if this is the case, i'd assume GW have since ammended their error, hence no loophole! :p


i dunno, whaddayou people think? try and pursuade my friend to let me use a single mark from another book, for 15 points (i dont even care if the chariot causes fear or not, im only fussed about my lord being in one), or have to go down the rout of a ludicrously unfluffy odd army, that is utterly legal, but i bit weak?

now for a constructive suggestion... keep all the chariots as normal undivided chariots. put your lord in one and give him the mark of nurgle (the chariot doesn't need to have the MoN for him to ride in it). if you take wargors, you can put them in chariots too and give them the mark of nurgle. if the character causes fear, then the whole chariot model will cause fear as long as the character is alive. it's worth remembering that chariots only have a unit strength of 4, so even in groups of 2 charging the same unit, they will probably never get the full advantage of fear rules - they won't have higher US on the charge, so if the enemy fail their fear test they will hold and hit on 6's rather than fleeing, and they won't usually force an automatic break by winning combat. the best you will get otherwise is making the enemy take fear tests to charge you, and your chariots should be used in such a way that they rarely get charged anyway.

as far as fluff is concerned, there is no reason you can't visually theme your chariots to appear nurglesque. i do exactly this with the gors/ungors in my nurgle army, even though they can't take the mark, and as such it has no effect in game terms (...actually it kinda does, as they are lead by a wargor with the MoN), but essentially it's just for looks.


100 points a die?
a saving of 40 points per die on an already questionable marking situation?
surely you jest...

i didn't say it was legal, just that there are other far more definitive and obvious reasons for it's illegality than the implied cost of power dice! ...the conspicious absence of any such option in the Beasts of Chaos armies book for instance. ;)

nurgle_boy
30-09-2005, 15:36
but.. but... i heard that marked characters cant ride in undevided chariots!


my my this is complicated...

oh, and i think i may have an old copy... the exact lineswere qupted in a rules thread. ill dig it out!

here it is, the exact quote from my book. this is what i meant by a loophole.


originaly posted by me

the actual wording, for those unsure, is-



Quote:
extract from page 60, of beast of chaos. info on chaos marks-
Characters, !Tuskgor chariots!, and up to one unit of Bestigor are assumed to have the mark of chaos undvided. this costs no points. They can replace the Mark of Chaos Undivided with the Mark of a specific Chaos god at the additional cost shown opposite.



so, for chariots, am i right in saying i would head over to my hordes of chaos, and just add the +XX amount of points for a nurgle chariot?


so i can replace the mark, but theres no cost in the beasts book, only in the hordes, so by marking the chariot with that, its not so much a loophole, as something else... i used the wrong wording...

my brain hurts from all this thinkiing... i need a ham sammich!

nurgle_boy
30-09-2005, 17:38
ok, ive got 2 more lists prepared now, and they assume my opponent isnt too strict as to not play against them, due to the fact my lord level characters chariot sare marked.

thats only XX points per character (and that number includes a 1 and a 5, in that order)

so, the 2k. ive taken some advice, and gone for a good 22 hounds, for screens, and flanking. mainly screens. ive also dropped te knights standadr (as its easy VP for the opponent), and the spel familiar. a little more variable, but still a little focused on speeding in with the chariots and hitting hard. just theres more to distract this time round! theres also a decent bit of maagic that i can toss around (i love the magic phase! id never be able to do an army without at least 2 lvl2's!), not so much to cause damage, but to screw up the enemy lines (lore of shadow, and nurgle. not too offensive, but more distracting/hampering really. sowing things up, and causing trouble)

for heavy armour, i have my magic, and character (great weapon! woo!).

and before anyone says anything, no mater what, im having 7 chariots. it just feels right!
so, heres the 2k

beastlord pestus the foul- armour of damnation, crown of horns, mark of nurgle, great weapon, chariot with mark of nurgle, bane shield=341
bray shaman corpus the foul- staff of darkoth, lvl2, lore of shadow=135
bray shaman gravis the wartbringer- power familiar, lvl2, lore of death=160
chaos sorcerer marnus the oozing- the plague chalice, mark of nurgle, daemonic steed=255

tuskgor chariot=85
tuskgor chariot=85
tuskgor chariot=85
tuskgor chariot=85
tuskgor chariot=85
tuskgor chariot=85

5 chaos hounds=30
5 chaos hounds=30
6 chaos hounds=36
6 chaos hounds=36

4 knights of chaos, mus, champ, mark of nurgle=212

6 centigors, throwing axes, mus=127
6 centigors, throwing axes, mus=127


total=1999


now the 3k. ive added some mortals in here, and ill whip up some background later, but i know its going to be to the south, maybe the marshes of madness, thats where my scrapped khemri chariots come from, and as its a marsh, nurgle and marshes just seems to ft!

so, i have another 4 knights with an aspiring champ for some hitting power, and some maurarder ponies, to flank and maybe charge a bit. theres a great bray in a chariot (so 5 for core, 2 for heros), and a feckload more hounds. not much of a change, but the extra magic, flanking, and shield should work... i hope...

so, here goes again!

beastlord pestus the foul- armour of damnation, crown of horns, mark of nurgle, great weapon, chariot with mark of nurgle, bane shield=341
chaos sorcerer marnus the oozing- the plague chalice, spell familiar, mark of nurgle, daemonic steed, lvl2=270
bray shaman gravis the wartbringer- power familiar, lvl2, lore of shadow=160
bray shaman morbus the scab-lvl2, 2 scrolls, lore of shadow=160
great bray festus the magnificant- lvl4, chariot of nurgle, mark of nurgle, staff of darkoth, goretooth, crown of everlasting conquest= 465
aspiring champion wartus the black- mark of nurgle, great weapon, shield, barded warhorse=143

tuskgor chariot-85
tuskgor chariot-85
tuskgor chariot-85
tuskgor chariot-85
tuskgor chariot-85

4 knights of chaos, champ, mus, mark of nurgle=232
4 knights of chaos, champ, mus, mark of nurgle=232

5 maurarder horsemen with throwing spears, shield, spear and musician=106
5 maurarder horsemen with throwing spears, shield, spear and musician=106

6 centigor, shields, gorehoof, musician=135
6 centigor, shields, gorehoof, musician=135

5 chaos hounds=30
5 chaos hounds=30
5 chaos hounds=30
5 chaos hounds=30
5 chaos hounds=30
5 chaos hounds=30
5 chaos hounds=30

total= 2999


a lot of magic, some numbers (for a mostly chriot/cav army anyway!) and plently of hitty characters.

really id like some tactics, as all i can think of, is destract for the firt few turns, untill me chariots hit, and just break the line, and head back through.

if i hit the lord + 2 chariots into the major unit, and break them, and 4 chariots (in pairs) into 2 other units, i can hopefully win the combat and gp straight through!

the knights can work together as well, as can gthe centigors and maurarders.

i like the theme and composition of it, but what do you think?

metro_gnome
30-09-2005, 18:29
i didn't say it was legal, just that there are other far more definitive and obvious reasons for it's illegality than the implied cost of power dice! ...the conspicious absence of any such option in the Beasts of Chaos armies book for instance. ;)
cause and effect... i'd say this particular point was the clincher...
but that is only a guess... :cool:

a marked character may never join a unit that is marked a different way...
so a Nurgle Lord may never join an Undivided Chariot...
that is not a guess... that are the rules ... ;)

Unseeing Eye
01-10-2005, 08:39
What is the wording on a character buying a chariot?

Nekharoth
03-10-2005, 04:32
:( actually the BoC book is a bit of a mess. you can't (technically) have a marked chariot, but characters have the option to ride chariots, but if the character is marked this becomes illegal, implying that only undivided beast characters can ride chariots, which makes no sense...

Brother Edwin
04-10-2005, 00:02
As in the other thred please explain how you will beat shooty armys or calvery armys?

Trunks
04-10-2005, 03:22
As in the other thred please explain how you will beat shooty armys or calvery armys?

He has Centigors which can run straight through the woods unmolested. These can help him engage enemy missile fire by turn two rather easily. They can also charge straight out of the woods into enemy cavalry with no loss of movement.

Hounds, Centigors, and Chaos Knights, can all help him against a Cavalry army. Essentially, and technically, this is a cavalry army but it has chariots too.

Hounds and Centigors are perfect for advancing into the enemy quickly to give time for Chariots to arrive.

He sacrifices a little in the movement department compared to a normal cavalry army to get some added hitting power in the form of chariots. Against any Cavalry army it will come down to maneuvering. With his Shadow Shaman, if he gets lucky and gets unseen lurker this could help with the maneuvering edge quite a bit.

nurgle_boy
04-10-2005, 08:37
thank you trunks, thats exactly the plan.

fast units oumaneuver and engage fast, then chariots position up right, and charge in.

g0ddy
04-10-2005, 19:04
Makaber came up with a very nasty combo for a nurgle lord last night...

Mark of Nurgle, Slaughterer's Blade, Crown of Everlasting Conquest and Armour of Damnation ;)

Might be worth a look.

- g0ddy

metro_gnome
05-10-2005, 02:33
um... thass too many points...

g0ddy
05-10-2005, 04:26
40+30+30?

- g0ddy

Latro
05-10-2005, 08:37
That's why he called it a nasty combo ... it's so nasty it's even illegal :D

nurgle_boy
05-10-2005, 08:41
the crown is 5x points! (the x is to stay within the rules!)

still, now if it was legal...

metro_gnome
05-10-2005, 15:31
and the blade is the 4x... well the armor was gravy anyway...

crown, blade, and chaos armor on your Beastlord is looking good though...

Makaber
05-10-2005, 23:22
Yes, g0d seems to have mixed it up somewhat, there was a bit of back and forth on it. The thought behind it is to negate the weakness of the Slaughterers Blade (the character usually have to survive two rounds of combat before the special ability can kick in).

In the end, the combo I came up with was Slaughterers Blade (40), combined with a Helm of Many Eyes (25) and Armour of Damnation (30), on a character with the Mark of Nurgle.

The theory behind it is that the Blade is pretty good, but very gimped by the fact that during the initial round of combat (ie. charge), the character will have all his wounds intact, and thus won't be able to regenerate anything. Then, the character he opposes will strike, first once after the Nurgle Lord in the initial round of combat, then before the Nurgle Lord (since the Nurgle Lord is equipped with a great weapon and strikes last). In effect, the Nurgle Lord will either have to kill his opponent in the first round (very hard), or survive two rounds of combat (also rather hard).

Now, by giving him the Helm of Many Eyes, the Nurgle Lord will only have to survive one round of combat. With both the Mark of Nurgle and the Armour of damnation, this is very easy to do. Then, when he strikes with his greatweapon, he'll regenerate a couple of the wounds he took before, thus making life very tricky for his opposition.

I feel it has some merit.

Azhrahg
06-10-2005, 07:32
Now, by giving him the Helm of Many Eyes, the Nurgle Lord will only have to survive one round of combat. With both the Mark of Nurgle and the Armour of damnation, this is very easy to do. Then, when he strikes with his greatweapon, he'll regenerate a couple of the wounds he took before, thus making life very tricky for his opposition.

I feel it has some merit.

It does make him very hard to kill, but you forget to add stupid on ld 8 without rerolls into the equation. Odds are that he will not get to charge but will be charged because of this - I wouldn't take that risk, that's for sure. But a deadly combination none the less.

Azhrahg.

Makaber
10-10-2005, 04:21
I actually had a mortal lord in mind when I cooked it up. As a matter of fact, BoC characters can't take Enchanted Items in the first place, so it's not legal in this case.

Why can't BoC characters take enchanted items? Beats me.