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Lord of Nonsensical Crap
06-02-2008, 21:28
Dear fellow Warseerites: if you were to rank the 40k races in accordance to how evil they are (ie which is the most evil race in the galaxy), how would they be ranked?

I, for one, would rank them as follows:

1. Dark Eldar- actively inflict pain and misery upon others, and take satisfaction in doing so; pride themselves on ruthlessness and capacity for treachery

2. Necrons- kill other races out of a pure, xenophobic (and life-o-phobic) hatred, which is the only emotion they are capable of. The C'tan, meanwhile, vary in degrees of evil, from downright cruel (ie the Deciever) to simply acting on their urges (ie the Nightbringer, the Outsider).

3. Chaos Space Marines- although some Legions do evil for evil's sake or for their own satisfaction, other legions act purely out of devotion to their gods, while others still act purely out of hatred for the Imperium which they believe betrayed them.

4. Imperium of Man- fascistic, xenophobic, completely paranoid and intolerant, willing to exterminate entire populations in order to maintain the status quo.

5. Orks- are brutal, warlike, aggressive.....but are like this simply because they are born that way, so at least they have a better excuse than humanity. Plus, they don't actively persecute their own kind on the same degree as the Imperium.

6. Eldar- Pretty much guilty of the same things as the Imperium (ie willing to kill millions to preserve Eldar lives). However, they do not persecute their own people as willingly as the Imperium does.

7. Tau- actually COEXIST with other races (even though their idea of coexistence is "join our empire, or we'll conquer you anyway")

8. Tyranids- Least evil race, IMO, because the concept of "morality" does not exist to them. They simply act according to their instincts.


Any thoughts? Personally, I'm still pretty iffy as to whether or not the Orks should be above the Imperium, or vice versa.

orksorksorks
06-02-2008, 21:32
tyrannids the good guys?? interesting :P

with dark eldar i cant imagine anything worse... imagine dark eldar transformed a bit by nurgle so theyre flesh is rotting..... jeez

Stingray_tm
06-02-2008, 21:35
No, Nids are not good, they are truly neutral, because they are a force of nature. (Evolution on speed.)

Well, i will try to rate the races on a D&D scale.

Dark Eldar: chaotic evil

Necrons: neutral evil

Chaos Space Marines: chaotic evil of course :D

Imperium of Man: lawful neutral

Orks: chaotic neutral

Eldar: chaotic good or lawful neutral, can't decide

Tau: lawful good

Tyranids: neutral

godhanger
06-02-2008, 21:35
1. Necrons - evil incarnate; kinda like "iDeath"s
2. Dark eldar - their depravity spawned a god or something, didnt it?...
3. Chaos - Burn the galaxy
4. Orks - live to fight, regardless of anyone's wellbeing
5. Imperium - fascistic, xenophobic, completely paranoid and intolerant, willing to exterminate entire populations in order to maintain the status quo... yet still has some "humanity"
6,7,8. i agree with yours

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
06-02-2008, 21:35
tyrannids the good guys?? interesting :P


Not "good." Just "least evil."

RampagingRavener
06-02-2008, 21:36
I'd swap the position of Dark Eldar down to 2nd, and replace "Necrons" entirely with "C'tan." Most Necrons, IIRC, don't have enough mind or emotions to truely be thought of as 'evil'; so they'd be down near Tyranids. The C'tan, though, are right up near the top.

Dark Eldar, while they are certainly monsterously cruel and vile creatures, do what they do party out of fear; it's a survival thing. It doesn't excuse what they do, but in my mind it explains their actions and culture somewhat. So they'd be up near the top, but not at the very top IMO.

EDIT: godhanger, it was the fall of all Eldar that created Slaanesh. The Dark Eldar simply fled into the webway, adjusted their lifestyles, and continued as they were instead of taking to the Paths of the Craftworlders.

Copenhagan
06-02-2008, 21:42
I think necrons are the most evil. Well C'Tan actually. They don't kill people for any other reason then the taste good. They don't need to kill for any other reason. and they cause terror in people not because they need to or that it helps in any way to the fighting that they do but because it improves the flavor of the food(guards men hehe).

Other then that one I pretty much agree with the OP.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
06-02-2008, 21:50
Imperium of Man: lawful neutral

I dunno....part of me sees them as Lawful Evil (that's the Inquisition in a nutshell to me, anyway)

Stingray_tm
06-02-2008, 21:54
That's what i would see the Ordo Hereticus. But the Imperium as a whole is quite neutral, because they have potential for being heroic and selfless on an individual basis, so it pretty much evens out the extremes. But they follow their own rules, no matter how stupid or barbaric they are.

Malforus
06-02-2008, 21:55
First of all Evil is very subjective

Nids individually all share one identity the hive mind. As such their only goal is growth and consumption of all matter they can.

Gluttony pure and simple.

The different Chaos factions vary in their actions but most share one simple facet, they are in it for what they can get. Why warship a chaos god...cause they give you stuff.

Greed to me.

Tau, now these guys are actually pretty good if simply because we don't know that much about them. I would rank Tau slightly ahead of the Imperials simply because though they are subjegating races they are not outright slaughtering them.

Why? So the galaxy can be theirs. Pride

Orks do not know better but that doesn't excuse their behavior, ignorance isn't an excuse for evil, its an excuse for culpability. Orks are indulging in their own form of gluttony in engaging in eternal war on everyone.

Necron fall into the same reasoning as the imperials with a darker tone but its the same message, they want everything so they can call it theirs. Pride and Malice

Eldar try to achieve things on the macro scale and willingly make their own sacrifices along with the sacrifices of others. The ends don't justify the means but at least they know they are doing wrong. Pride for the simple fact that they percieve themselves as the most advanced (right or not).

Dark Eldar are by far the most evil, they have seen the "big picture" and would rather deal in their personal dealings and indulgances. Gluttony, Sloth (for ignoring the galactic plight), and Malice

Of course this is based off an older Tome regarding an older god, but that view is shared by some and can be understood as a well recieved and accepted view of evil.

guillimansknight
06-02-2008, 22:06
[QUOTE=Malforus;2332723]First of all Evil is very subjective



Tau, now these guys are actually pretty good if simply because we don't know that much about them. I would rank Tau slightly ahead of the Imperials simply because though they are subjegating races they are not outright slaughtering them.

Why? So the galaxy can be theirs. Pride





QUOTE]

The Tau say become or slaves or die

they apply Exterminatus to worlds that dont subject

thats WORSE than slaughter

MaliGn
06-02-2008, 22:13
Most Evil: Imperium of Man, for all the reasons mentioned above and so much more, The Orwellian lifestyle into which they force their populace to live under, the way they are completely intolerent of any other species' right to existence. Even to question the idea of the Imperium is regarded as a heretical act, punishable by at best death and at worst the unthinkable tortures of the Ordo Hereticus. Free will is completely removed from the average imperial subject, even those deemed to be "free" let alone the monstrous ritual lobotomisation of humans by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Even the brainwashing and indoctrination of children until they become Space Marines is pretty barbaric. Based on this the evil of Chaos becomes merely a facet of the Imperial propaganda machine.

Necrons: Which is more evil? the so called desire to destroy everything, or the desire to enslave it all? Surely ruling everything that exists whether they want you to rule them or not is worse than a desire for utter annihilation? This argument can apply to Tyranids as well, and with a little more thought we result in the scale of Evil with 1 as the most evil.

1. Imperium of Man.
2. Dark Eldar. (this is simply a scale issue)
3. Tau Empire. (Slightly less barbaric but similar results of an enslaved galaxy)
4. Necrons
5. Tyranids (Similar in intent to Necrons, but due to inscrutableness of Hive Mind compared to C'Tan lower points)
6. Chaos. (After all torture is torture and murder is murder, and it's fair to say their pretty sick, I'm not quite sure where to put them, possibly in at number 2)
7. Eldar. (A dying race, struggling for survival, but previous actions may have been much more evil than current activity may show.)
8. Orks. (Just out for a fight, possibly not goog guys, but certainly not all that Evil)

Templar Ben
06-02-2008, 22:14
No, Nids are not good, they are truly neutral, because they are a force of nature. (Evolution on speed.)

Well, i will try to rate the races on a D&D scale.

Dark Eldar: chaotic evil

Necrons: neutral evil

Chaos Space Marines: chaotic evil of course :D

Imperium of Man: lawful neutral

Orks: chaotic neutral

Eldar: chaotic good or lawful neutral, can't decide

Tau: lawful good

Tyranids: neutral

I consider Imp of Man to be Lawful Evil. I would put Eldar as Lawful Neutral and not chaotic due to the paths.

twj
06-02-2008, 22:17
I see no-one has suggested that the most evil thing relating to 40k is GW itself....

Kantur
06-02-2008, 22:20
Dark Eldar, while they are certainly monsterously cruel and vile creatures, do what they do party out of fear; it's a survival thing. It doesn't excuse what they do, but in my mind it explains their actions and culture somewhat. So they'd be up near the top, but not at the very top IMO.



Exactly what I was going to say and another reason I wish there was more fluff to highlight this - it's not a love of pain, it's survival to make a brighter warp presence in someone else next to them to distract She Who Thirsts from them.

I'm almost tempted to argue the craftworlders are more evil, getting their warriors to focus upon their path, trap their souls in shiny gems and to try and cut off their emotions....

void trekker
06-02-2008, 22:35
I think I'd put the Chaos Marines at the top. They actively chose what they wanted to be. The Necrons were duped, and the Dark Eldar kinda couldn't help it.

Da Black Gobbo
06-02-2008, 22:48
i don't think the good and bad issues fit in 40k they are all bad for our own point of view, but remember that Inquistion thinks that they are doing the right thing when they exterminate an entire planet, maybe orks are out of the bad and good scheme because they don't give a damm the philosophy they just wanna find "a proppa fight".

the1stpip
06-02-2008, 22:56
Tau, not evil?

Join us or die!

And that is not to mention whatever it is the Ethereals are up to.

No, Tau are evil, they just hide behind a facade.

Caboose123
06-02-2008, 23:50
1- Chaos (I know Dark Eldar seek ectasy in torturing victims... slowly, but there is nothing more evil than wanting to kill everything, then yourselves...)

2- Lets put Dark Eldar here shall we? They do like causing pain...

3- Imperium- They kill everything thats not them, no choice in the matter. Theyalso kill mutants psykers etc. To prove they're not exclusive...

4- 'Nids- They do have a great conciousness, who tells them to kill everything, higher than necrons as their not excluded to things with souls, and basically waste planets. That said they do kill for food, seems natural enough.

5- Necrons- They fight just like Nids, the Star Gods hunger, it just happens that they like reaping souls and has an army of mechanical horrors...

6- Orks- They just like to fight, for them its all about personal amusement. Its not for honour gods or even food, so are fairly low.

7- Eldar- Rather rightueos (sp?) and kill everything that disagrees with them and is bad for the universe in general, but if your willing to do what they say, they probably wont kill you... that much ;)

8- Tau- The true goodies, they plan on uniting the galaxy. They are most like modern man, with arts and civilisation IMHO. They dont necessarily want to kill, and will allo people to join their empire. They dont base a race by its leaders (leading to auxillaries) and help other races with equipment (if they join). Only race id call nice. The point of contention in the 40k universe is that people join THEIR empire, not the other way around, they still want to be in charge and control, probably so they can decide not to kill everything else

Thats a fairly reasonable list...

Gen.Steiner
06-02-2008, 23:52
Good: Imperium of Humanity.

Evil: Everybody else.

It's easy. I don't know what the problem is, I really don't.

LoneSniperSG
07-02-2008, 00:00
I would definitely not put Dark Eldar at the worst evil.

Necrons - They serve their star-gods. They have no morality, and they know what they are doing. The Nightbringer wants to pig out on your soul.

Chaos - Wish they could be as evil as Necrons. Khorne has nothing on the Nightbringer. Tzeentch has nothing on the Deceiver. These guys are merely puppets of puppets, and those puppets are the puppets of imagination.

Dark Eldar - The "evil good". If you read their fluff, you find they are absolutely obsessed with Slaanesh and the fact that their little cult created her. They want nothing more than to deny Slaanesh the pleasures she seeks.

Tyranids - Animals. Very sentient animals, but animals nonetheless. Nurgle wishes he could do what they do.

Imperium - Failure. The Emporer said he didn't want to be worshiped, and humanity does it anyway. All of them will end up in hell.

Space marines - The best of the good, yet easily toppled to puppet status. The loyalists have yet to disobey their great shining fathers.

Tau - The Tau are respectable, but rank somewhere close to Greenpeace.

Eldar - lacking true value in their lives, they turned to piracy. The Eldar are (from my warped sociological perspective) the greatest civilizational failure in the galaxy. They have made war with every other faction for no true reason, even though they "protected" the Tau. Come on.. they sack a planet and do nothing with it.

Orks - The greatest civilizational success ever. They have no sociological problems, because they are genetically programmed to do what's Orky.

I have a feeling I missed one..

jfrazell
07-02-2008, 00:01
Orks are of course good. Any race that will single-handedly save the galaxy from both the necrons and the tyranids are heroes...

Orks! Orks! Orks! Orks!

AmBlam
07-02-2008, 00:07
Its all relative I guess, I've never really seen necrons as evil though. Humanity is too stupid to be evil, as are orks. Not chaos though. They are different imo.

Gen.Steiner
07-02-2008, 00:08
On a more serious note, by what moral standard are we measuring these alien races?

What philosophy of ethics are we using? Utilitarianism? Aristotelian ethics? Platonic theory? Individualism? Libertarianism? Something else?

The fact is that none, all, or any of the races of the 41st Millenium are evil, good, and both. To themselves, they are good. To their enemies, they're evil.

Well... except the Orks and 'nids, who in both cases are literally amoral, unless you consider the concept of the skumgrod an' all dat uvver stuff in Kultur to be a philosophy of ethics as opposed to a philosophy of 'ead kickin'.

Badbones777
07-02-2008, 00:10
This is actually a REALLY difficult issue. Myself I dont see the Necrons as any more "evil" than the tyranids-If they dont cyclically harvest souls, then thats pretty much the end of them as a sentient race, so in that respect theyre no more "evil" than a shark-ditto the nids who as pointed out have no concept or need of morality and therefore are not really judgeable on such a scale. As a tau player, Im actually pretty sure theres more to them than meets the eye-agressive expansion is agressive expansion no matter how dynamic, measured and, for want of a better word polite (!) they might be about it-and It wouldnt surprise me if the ethereal caste WERE using some sort of mind control or similar to maintain such high levels of discipline and morale-The imperium was the same in the early days of its own expansion and look at it now! Speaking of the Imperium, yes they are a horrible hybrid of fascism and stalinism, but its out of necessity- a democracy wouldnt last very long in the 40k universe against all the threats humanity is facing. The Orks I would place similarly to the nids in as much as they are essentially fulfilling a biological imperative-humans have the urge to breed, Orks have the urge to fight, so its unfair to call them "evil". As for CSM, i have a problem with calling them evil also-How many thousands didnt give two ***** (or even know about) chaos, but sided with Horus 'cos they felt he was the horse to back so to speak, compared to an emperor many felt had abandoned them? Id say a lot....

As such I would have to go with :

1: Dark Eldar
2: Chaos as a whole (with apologies to those marines who essentially backed the losing side in a civil war)
3: The Imperium of Man
4: Orks
5: The Tau Empire (Im sure theres more to them than we know!....)
6: Necrons
7: Tyranids

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-02-2008, 00:14
1- C'Tan

2- Chaos

3- Dark Eldar [can do pretty much what chaos do, but they do it to survive - chaos have no excuse]

4- Tau [enslavers - it don't matter how pretty you say it - to enslave is to enslave][act like communists - i hate this bloody ideology]

5- Imperium

6- Eldar

7- Orks

Out of contest - Nids - as we dont know Hive mind and Necrons - as the dont feel anything.

why Tau so high? well - enslaving is worse than simple anihilation

Gen.Steiner
07-02-2008, 00:20
Acheron, the Tau are not Communists. They're not. Not not not not not.

In fact, before this thread goes any further:

TAU! ARE! NOT! SPACE-COMMIES!

I now return you to your thread. :)

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-02-2008, 00:33
Acheron, the Tau are not Communists. They're not. Not not not not not.


they are not - but they behave just like communists - and are also called 'Good' even if thir deeds clearly state that they are NOT good race at all. hence the similiarities.

Badbones777
07-02-2008, 00:48
Id tend to agree with Wikipedia as far as the Tau go, Collectivist Imperialists-though it does point out that utilitarianism is key to their whole mindset- but this is getting somewhat off track- We are only looking at how good or evil they are (or at least examinig whether it is even possible to label the races in this way)

TheDarkDuke
07-02-2008, 00:55
I rank them in evilness as there are NO good guys in the 40k universe.

1. Chaos... they are friken warped by evil!
2. Dark Eldar... just evil don't really need to explain.
3. Imperial... If your not human you are pretty much worth killing for the sake of humanity...
4. Tau... Join "are greater good" or die!
5. Eldar... lets face it they are clearly always planning and twisting things.
6. Necron... Old race, that simply consumes as they are designed to do, yet being souless they do not have the capacity(outside of the C'Tan which is the whole army) to be evil or good.
7. Orks... They are only looking for a good fight... if your a UFC/Boxer etc are you evil because you love to fight? No.
8. Nids... Since we do not know the "true nature" of the hive mind, they are simply an advance/variety of organized creatures that consume to survive... it would be like calling a lion pride, evil because they hunt and kill to survive, it is simply there natural and way of survival.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-02-2008, 00:56
5- Necrons- They fight just like Nids, the Star Gods hunger, it just happens that they like reaping souls and has an army of mechanical horrors...

Necrons - They serve their star-gods. They have no morality, and they know what they are doing. The Nightbringer wants to pig out on your soul.

No. No. NO! NOOOOOOO! No.

C'tan=/=Eat souls.

C'tan do not eat souls! Souls are part of the Warp! Warp is to C'tan as peanut oil is to... people who are allergic to it. They hate it! No! No souls! C'tan do not eat souls! Blarghagargleh! Maratabaladabnootish! No! No souls!

I hope I've been clear. It's life essence they want. Not souls.


Good: Imperium of Humanity.

Evil: Everybody else.

It's easy. I don't know what the problem is, I really don't.

Good man Steiner. For the Emperor!

Badbones777
07-02-2008, 01:01
"No. No. NO! NOOOOOOO! No.

C'tan=/=Eat souls.

C'tan do not eat souls! Souls are part of the Warp! Warp is to C'tan as peanut oil is to... people who are allergic to it. They hate it! No! No souls! C'tan do not eat souls! Blarghagargleh! Maratabaladabnootish! No! No souls!

I hope I've been clear. It's life essence they want. Not souls."


Most succinct!;) A point well worth making and easy to forget, the C'tan have a totally different agenda than warp entities.

Ddraiglais
07-02-2008, 01:04
No. No. NO! NOOOOOOO! No.

C'tan=/=Eat souls.

C'tan do not eat souls! Souls are part of the Warp! Warp is to C'tan as peanut oil is to... people who are allergic to it. They hate it! No! No souls! C'tan do not eat souls! Blarghagargleh! Maratabaladabnootish! No! No souls!

I hope I've been clear. It's life essence they want. Not souls.



Good man Steiner. For the Emperor!


So you're trying to say that the C'tan will eat anything that's not fried in peanut oil? I think I got it now. :D

EmperorEternalXIX
07-02-2008, 01:04
First: Much props to Gen. Steiner. Hehe.

Second, I have only this to add:

"There is no such thing as innocence. Only degrees of guilt."

Ddraiglais
07-02-2008, 01:16
I almost forgot to post my rankings.

1. The Imperium - Worship our way or die. Give your whole life over to us or die. 10% of you will end up in the guard and die anyway. I'm not too keen on fascists.

2. Tau Empire - We've decided what's good. You will do everything to protect that good. Being in a higher caste and making you believe that that's good while you are in a low caste is good.

3. DE -Taking slaves, torture, deriving pleasure from torturing slaves.... Yeah, they're pretty evil.

4. Necrons (more C'tan) - Eating life essence is pretty evil, especially if you don't fry it in peanut oil first.

5. Eldar - I was tempted to put them more towards the good end, but they try to impose their views on others too much. They are too arrogant even though they let their empire fall. They are no longer the defenders of the galaxy. They need to stop acting like it.

6. Chaos - Freedom if you're strong. You can at least make choices for yourself. They do tend to do bad things though.

7. Orks -They are born aggressive. They may take slaves and treat lesser Orks poorly, but they are not as oppressive as others.

8. Tyranids - As people have noted above, they are no more evil than a shark or lion having dinner.

Sekhmet
07-02-2008, 02:14
The difference between C'tan and Tyranids (who fight for food) is that Tyranids have an animalistic side, they fight for the survival of their species in a true darwinistic sense.

The primary food of a C'tan is, or was, stars. They could survive on stars indefinitely and not harm anyone. Instead, they eat people not because they have to, but because they taste better.

byteboy
07-02-2008, 02:23
I rank Necrons as #1 for Evil.
Unlike DE, Necrons have no reason to kill all life in the Universe. DE enjoy seeing things in pain, it gives them pleasure. Necrons just kill all life.....period. They show no emotions, nor get satisfaction from it, they just kill.

Every other "evil" race has a motive, whether it be to corrupt souls/planets, consume genetic material to further advance the species or to capture living creatures to torture.

Badbones777
07-02-2008, 02:33
I rank Necrons as #1 for Evil.
Unlike DE, Necrons have no reason to kill all life in the Universe. DE enjoy seeing things in pain, it gives them pleasure. Necrons just kill all life.....period. They show no emotions, nor get satisfaction from it, they just kill.

Every other "evil" race has a motive, whether it be to corrupt souls/planets, consume genetic material to further advance the species or to capture living creatures to torture.

Well then surely thats precisely why DE ARE more evil-they actively enjoy it, where as if its just something Necrons DO as a matter of course, with no emotion or feeling thats not evil thats being an automaton- the C'tan might be evil in that sense, but the Necrons are just......Necrons- V. similar to Tyranids

DarthIbis
07-02-2008, 04:25
I think that's the great thing about this game.
Every faction has an element of righteousness and degree of fallibility about them...
Thus none of them are truly good, and they are all evil to some degree.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-02-2008, 04:48
So you're trying to say that the C'tan will eat anything that's not fried in peanut oil? I think I got it now. :D

*facepalm*

RevenantX
07-02-2008, 05:11
I think one of the most interesting things about the Tyranids is their absolute lack of culture. They are the most alien because they have nothing resembling a society, and that makes them the most terrifying threat in the game. Not the most evil, simply the scariest.

At best, they are simply animals that are doing what they need to do to survive on a fairly base level and will wipe out the galaxy eventually unless some extinction level event occurs.

At worst, they (or the higher-evolved hive minds) know EXACTLY what they're doing and will wipe us out eventually unless some extinction level event occurs.

So either they're neutral, or are evil rivaled only by the Necrons.

PseudoK
07-02-2008, 05:25
It definitely looks like we all have differing opinions of evil, so I'll give it my shot.

1) Chaos Space Marines - Devotion to one's god doesn't make the actions better. CSMs know that their gods want life controlled/destroyed/tortured, and they know what their gods represent. The ones that sold their souls not knowing what they were getting into are a little better than the ones that turned to the dark powers knowing well what they were - but not by much.
2) Necrons/C'tan - Mmm, tasty life. The C'tan destroy because we're tasty, but it's kind of like eating Kobe beef over Angus beef. If the cows were sentient, that is.
4) Dark Eldar - Even if they enjoy what they do, they also do it out of sheer desperation for their own souls. But they still enjoy it.
3) Orks - Barely above animals, but they still like beating on things for the hell of it. The best that they have going for themselves is their lack of intelligence and they were designed for the actions they're taking.
5) Imperium of Man - If you at least pay lip service, you can get away with a normal life. Normally. Systemic corruption and warp infection, but their actions are bandages to stop it that are at least somewhat better than doing nothing. Don't ignore the fact that their founder started a galaxy wide crusade to kill everything not sufficiently human, and his ignorance/lack of planning caused a massive civil war.
6) Eldar - Ohhh, did they screw up big time. But they're better now, if you're one of them. Usually. If you stick with their coping mechanism. They're really not that different from Man in their xenophobia, but they've found a way to channel their obsessiveness to keep them from virus bombing/orbitally bombarding their own species.
7) Tau - Their actions aren't that different from the Imperium of Man or Eldar, just with a little less rabid xenophobia. But they'll still kill you if you're not with them.

Tyranids don't fit in the list. They may be on the side of disorder, but calling them evil is like calling a bacterial infection (not even a lion pride) evil, in my mind.

Also, the list could be broken down into further sections. The fact that Grey Knights brain wipe or murder everyone who sees them wipe out Chaos (even if they justify it) is pretty horrendous - but the Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves actually fights for the little guy.

the blind knight
07-02-2008, 05:49
A lot of bad things had been said about the Tau and I fell i need to defend the greater good.First of all I would like to point out that Tau are by NO means good just lesser evil that the other races(exept for nids,they are animals).All of the arguments against Tau are based on join us or die theory.But compared to the other soultions why wouldent you want to join them.Here is a example:


Imagine that you are of some unknown race that only lives on one planet.Unluckily enough,you have managed to atract attention of ALL of the other races.These are your opsions:

Orks:fight them and die

nids:fight them and be devoured

Necrons:fight them and...(you get the point)

Dark eladr:you get captured and tortured until you are begging for death

Imerial guard:EXTERMINATUS(nuff said)

Eldar:well I dont know what they will do so there are one of the lesser evilishy races

Tau:Join us we will give you training,shelter,armor,wepons,food OR die

Chaos space marines:Join us at first it will be foun to have a tail but the fun stops when you become nurgle b...h.

So i ask you what would you chose.Yes the Tau have their flaws but thouse flaws are minor compared to others.So my Evil list is:

1)Dark eldar
2)Imperial guard(damn xenofobic bullies)
3)Chaos space marines
4)orks and necrons
5)tau and eldar

Neutral
1)nids

imperial90
07-02-2008, 09:53
I am a utalitarian, as such i beleive that its best to do what will protect the largest number of people. And as a Human i beleive my own people come first, humanity. I think that this is the ideology of the Imperium, Unity or death, mankind stands as one, dies or sinks to levels of barbarity that would make an inquisitor shudder. A democratic system would not work for the imperium, hell, it doesnt work for anyone in 40k, even the oh so good tau dont have a democracy but a dictatorship with one class able to boss all the others around (oh and i also see tau as space communists, just annoying).

I think the Imperium learned a long time ago that it was better to simply annihialate an enemy specious then leave it to let it grow into a threat that may someday enslve humanity, they learned this from before the great crusade and the lesson stuck, deal with it while the problem is small. I know that this may seem barbaric, but unlike in our time, unity must be upheld at all costs, we dont have threats that good wipe us completely from existance as such we cant judge the decisions the imperium is forced to make on a daily bases.

As such here is my ranking

1. Ctan -want to wipe life completely from the galaxy, cant get to much eviler then that

2. Chaos -freedom is a good thing, but freedom demands responsibility, without it (and this is what i think chaos represents) the grand ideal that is freedom becomes nothing more then depravity

3. Dark Eldar - Sadistic Bas....s, but their is some logic behind the madness, protecting their souls

4.Tyranids- a greater intelligence is at play here, and one that seeks only to consume, that is not normal in nature or beasts, for in nature balance is everything, the tyranids clearing worlds or everything kinda goes against this

5. Orks- They like war for wars sake, not even the tyranids do that, but theirs still a simplicity to them that excuses them cause for them, war is quite literally in their blood

6.Tau- to those that say the tau are the greatest race ever and their "greater good" is the perfect philosophy well its not, the imperium doesnt make war for wars sake, they do it to protect what they have, the tau's expansions however can N.Korea set up a section started preaching about the glories of america and how much better the people would be if they were apart of it and then part of the country rebelled against the country, firstly people would say it wasnt americas right to do what they did, and N.Korea has every right to put down the rebellion.

7. Eldar and the Imperium- i have these two tied because i dont think their evil atleast in the normal sense, both of these races are utalitarians to the extreme, they both screwed up badly (making slaanesh, horus heresy) but afterwards survival means everything to both of them and all of the terrible things they may do is in the name of survival

intellectawe
07-02-2008, 14:17
What is it with people who keep saying DE have to be evil out of neccesity?

DE choose to be evil. DE, after the fall, could have followed thier brothers down a more cautious and neutral path, but instead, they CHOSE to be ripe, evil bastards. Sure Slaneesh is trying to kill them, but She is also trying to kill Eldar as a whole. Why do some Eldar choose to not kill and other choose to kill? Because the ones who choose to kill are just evil sumnobiches.

Every single aspect of DE life revolves around torture, power, and murder. So what if the Imperium are 'evil' to a small degree. The trillions of humanity who toil and live have no clue about whats going on in the galaxy, and just serve the State. Not the Dark Eldar. Every single DE born is a dirty bastard who will stab your mother for a nickel.

1. Dark Eldar

2 and bellow. Doesn't matter because DE is going to take you all as slaves and show you what true evil really is.

Gen.Steiner
07-02-2008, 14:25
Good man Steiner. For the Emperor!


First: Much props to Gen. Steiner.

Tsk! Of all the posters in this thread, only Imperialis_Dominatus and EmperorEternal don't need to be excruciated and redeemed with fire. What is the world coming to. :rolleyes:

whiteperegrine
07-02-2008, 14:38
Dear fellow Warseerites: if you were to rank the 40k races in accordance to how evil they are (ie which is the most evil race in the galaxy), how would they be ranked?

I, for one, would rank them as follows:

1. Dark Eldar- actively inflict pain and misery upon others, and take satisfaction in doing so; pride themselves on ruthlessness and capacity for treachery

2. Necrons- kill other races out of a pure, xenophobic (and life-o-phobic) hatred, which is the only emotion they are capable of. The C'tan, meanwhile, vary in degrees of evil, from downright cruel (ie the Deciever) to simply acting on their urges (ie the Nightbringer, the Outsider).

3. Chaos Space Marines- although some Legions do evil for evil's sake or for their own satisfaction, other legions act purely out of devotion to their gods, while others still act purely out of hatred for the Imperium which they believe betrayed them.

4. Imperium of Man- fascistic, xenophobic, completely paranoid and intolerant, willing to exterminate entire populations in order to maintain the status quo.

5. Orks- are brutal, warlike, aggressive.....but are like this simply because they are born that way, so at least they have a better excuse than humanity. Plus, they don't actively persecute their own kind on the same degree as the Imperium.

6. Eldar- Pretty much guilty of the same things as the Imperium (ie willing to kill millions to preserve Eldar lives). However, they do not persecute their own people as willingly as the Imperium does.

7. Tau- actually COEXIST with other races (even though their idea of coexistence is "join our empire, or we'll conquer you anyway")

8. Tyranids- Least evil race, IMO, because the concept of "morality" does not exist to them. They simply act according to their instincts.


Any thoughts? Personally, I'm still pretty iffy as to whether or not the Orks should be above the Imperium, or vice versa.

actually I like this listing the best. although I suppose an arguement could be made to lower the necrons down the list...say after Imperium given they are really nothing more than drones for the C'tan.~

StanMcKim
07-02-2008, 15:00
In order to call something evil you first have to understand what evil is. It is a subjective term. What is evil to one person or group is not evil to another, so we first have to define from what perspective we're looking from when we call the 40k races "evil". Second, based upon that perspective we have to figure out how we define evil. That involves defining what we value because evil is the opposite. So, from the perspective of the Imperium, a society that views good as absolute obedience, faith in the Emperor, and hatred of anything not human or that threatens humanity, I'd say the list would look something like this:

1. Chaos Space Marines. These are humans who have betrayed the emperor, forsaken oaths of obedience to the imperium of Man, consort with Xenos and Daemons, and are litterally the antithesis of everything that the Imperium is.

2. Necrons/C'Tan. These creatures are xenos but are also robots of a sort, two things that are anethema to mankind. They are also incredibly threatening, destroying entire planets on a whim. They would be seen as incredibly evil.

3. Tyranids. Once again, not evil in the sense that they do harm but in the sense that they are the opposite of everything the Imperium holds to be good.

4. Eldar/Dark Eldar/Tau. Once again, very opposed to the way the imperium thinks, very dangerous, but they are share some values like obedience and self preservation. They aren't evil because they are anethema, simply mistrusted and hated due to their nature as Xenos.

5. Orks. Probably seen more as an elemental force than a melevolent one. Something to be crushed and destroyed, hated, but certainly not evil in the same way that Chaos Space Marines are betrayers of imperial truth.

And thats how I kind of see it.
-Stan

Badbones777
07-02-2008, 15:07
I am a utalitarian, as such i beleive that its best to do what will protect the largest number of people. And as a Human i beleive my own people come first, humanity. I think that this is the ideology of the Imperium, Unity or death, mankind stands as one, dies or sinks to levels of barbarity that would make an inquisitor shudder. A democratic system would not work for the imperium, hell, it doesnt work for anyone in 40k, even the oh so good tau dont have a democracy but a dictatorship with one class able to boss all the others around (oh and i also see tau as space communists, just annoying).

I think the Imperium learned a long time ago that it was better to simply annihialate an enemy specious then leave it to let it grow into a threat that may someday enslve humanity, they learned this from before the great crusade and the lesson stuck, deal with it while the problem is small. I know that this may seem barbaric, but unlike in our time, unity must be upheld at all costs, we dont have threats that good wipe us completely from existance as such we cant judge the decisions the imperium is forced to make on a daily bases.

As such here is my ranking

1. Ctan -want to wipe life completely from the galaxy, cant get to much eviler then that

2. Chaos -freedom is a good thing, but freedom demands responsibility, without it (and this is what i think chaos represents) the grand ideal that is freedom becomes nothing more then depravity

3. Dark Eldar - Sadistic Bas....s, but their is some logic behind the madness, protecting their souls

4.Tyranids- a greater intelligence is at play here, and one that seeks only to consume, that is not normal in nature or beasts, for in nature balance is everything, the tyranids clearing worlds or everything kinda goes against this

5. Orks- They like war for wars sake, not even the tyranids do that, but theirs still a simplicity to them that excuses them cause for them, war is quite literally in their blood

6.Tau- to those that say the tau are the greatest race ever and their "greater good" is the perfect philosophy well its not, the imperium doesnt make war for wars sake, they do it to protect what they have, the tau's expansions however can N.Korea set up a section started preaching about the glories of america and how much better the people would be if they were apart of it and then part of the country rebelled against the country, firstly people would say it wasnt americas right to do what they did, and N.Korea has every right to put down the rebellion.

7. Eldar and the Imperium- i have these two tied because i dont think their evil atleast in the normal sense, both of these races are utalitarians to the extreme, they both screwed up badly (making slaanesh, horus heresy) but afterwards survival means everything to both of them and all of the terrible things they may do is in the name of survival

Well actually the C'tan DONT want to exterminate life from the galaxy-their current agenda is based around cyclically harvesting about 90% of life, and then returning to dormancy so that life can flourish and theres something for them to eat when they wake up again. If they DID kill everything it would be self defeating.

Meriwether
07-02-2008, 16:31
Dear fellow Warseerites: if you were to rank the 40k races in accordance to how evil they are (ie which is the most evil race in the galaxy), how would they be ranked?

The question, of course, depends on what evil _is_.

...and now, to kick the hornet's nest a little:


The fact is that none, all, or any of the races of the 41st Millenium are evil, good, and both. To themselves, they are good. To their enemies, they're evil.



In order to call something evil you first have to understand what evil is. It is a subjective term.

It always bothers me that people immediately say that 'good' or 'evil' are subjective terms. Is cultural relativism so ingrained that we now take this assertion to be truth?

Just because some (or a lot, or even all) people say that evil is relative/subjective doesn't mean that evil _is_ relative/subjective. If my personal beliefs determine what is and is not evil, then 'evil' has no meaning. (And thus neither does 'good'.)

...and so we all go careening off the edge of the Nietzchian Abyss into nihilism, where nothing means anything and all questions (and answers) are pointless.

Personally, I reject the *assumption* that evil and good are relative. I *believe* that they are absolute. My belief in absolute morality holds _at least as much_ validity as others' belief in relative morality (and one can argue that relative morality quickly leads to no morality at all, and thus is entirely meaningless... ...and if morality is entirely meaningless, then 'relative morality' means nothing... And thus if morality exists at all, it must be absolute). The morality of any given fantasy world likely depends on its spiritual cosmology (including the nature of the soul, the existence of God or Gods, the real presence of souls in the Warp, etc.).

Note, please, that I am nowhere close to arrogant enough to presume that I know, in all situations, what is and is not good or evil. I'm not claiming to be the authority, here! I have some good general ideas that altruism is good and sadism is bad...

I *postulate* that one can be evil without thinking that one is evil (e.g. Tony Soprano, Adolf Hitler). Nobody actually thinks they're the bad guy, and they have what they perceive to be good reasons to do what they do.

I also *postulate* that one must be sentient in order to be evil. Non-sentient creatures are amoral forces of nature, like the wind that brings down a tree that crushes a guy... Neither the wind nor the tree *murdered* him, even though they *killed* him. That was _unfortunate_, not _evil_.

Now, let's apply this to 40K.

Creatures without sentience (e.g. necron warriors, tyranids, etc.) are neither good nor evil, they are amoral. (The tyranids because they are basically animals, and the necrons because they have no force of will with which to resist the evil commands of their masters. They're like trees blown down by the wind).

As for everything else (from C'Tan to your average guardsman), if they choose to do good, they are good, and if they choose to do evil, they are evil. If they accidentally do evil, they may be less culpable for the evil that they have done, especially if they do what they can to atone for it.

Orks, for example, have a _penchant_ for violence, but they have intelligence, and thus do not need to succumb to thier urges. Just because they have much stronger instincts towards violence does not mean that they are less evil for having succumbed to those instincts. They care nothing for the pain and suffering of others, and look out only for themselves. (They are the Tony Sopranos of the 40th millennium...)

Dark Eldar have a system for staving off Slaanesh, but there is a less evil alternative (e.g. the craftworlds, and/or the harlequins) that they choose not to follow. They also rejoice in the pain and suffering of others. They are thus evil, and pretty much through-and-through.

C'Tan are evil because they can live just fine off of star stuff, but instead are entirely motivated by the desire to devour the life essence of critters they know to be sentient just because they taste better. I would equate this to eating human babies because you don't like broccoli -- clearly evil.

All of the other races are pretty much a mixed bag, sometimes behaving in evil ways and sometimes in good ways. No real surprise that no race is 100% good.

Meri

Gen.Steiner
07-02-2008, 16:46
It always bothers me that people immediately say that 'good' or 'evil' are subjective terms. Is cultural relativism so ingrained that we now take this assertion to be truth?

Not so much cultural as 'it's-not-real' relativism, Meri. ;)

If it was real, then I side 100% with the Imperium as being good at all times because it seeks to ensure the survival of the human race. With that goal in mind, all means are justified.

How's that for a hornet's sting? Bit weak, I think! :p

MrMojoZ
07-02-2008, 16:54
So you people calling the Tau communists realize that communism is based on a classless society which is the complete opposite of what the Tau are, right? No really, you do know what words mean before you use them, right?

Gobbo666
07-02-2008, 16:57
my list:
1: the Imperium and chaos i just think about nazi germany and genocide

2:c'tan nthing to say

3:dark eldar turturing for the fun of it

4:eldar arrogant bastards who cant understad their empire is lost 4ever

5:Tau Join them or Die

6Orks whats wrong with having some good fights

7 nids ANIMALs

mechu95
07-02-2008, 17:17
Good: Imperium of Humanity.

Evil: Everybody else.

It's easy. I don't know what the problem is, I really don't.

Oh yes. The xenophobic, rasist empire that killed millions to only exist, and exterminate everything that is not human, simply because it's_not_human. That's not even being patriotic. That's hatred to every other species (Well, except Wolfes and Eagles), just because of pure, mindless hatred.

But anyways:

1. Definately Dark Eldar. They are mindless, and kill others simply for the fun of it. They pride themselfes with their ruthless murders, and that's the only thing they care about in their chaotic mind.

2. Chaos. Kill others for the blessing of the God they worship, only wanting to preserve their worthless bodies, not caring about their souls. They sell their souls to the Deamons of the Warp, mindlessly killing everything, making deals witht the Deamons for the psychotic powers, their brains rotting and flesh burning, finally mutating into an immortal being, while not realising that they're a slave of the Chaos Gods.

3. Necrons. Their hatred of everything that lives is so big that they might destroy entire star systems automatically, without thinking about it at all. Is it because of their ancient, mysterious programming, or because of jealousy that the living actually feel, nobody knows.

4. Imperium of Man. Willing to exterminate worlds to survive and keep the self status of "the greatest force in the Galaxy", while their xenophobia and rasism keeps them fighting to the end.

5. Eldar. Not exactly like the Imperium, but still with the xenophobic mind they at least not waste their people.

6. Tau Empire. Although they are not so xenophobic, and communicate with other races not only with weapons, their sense of communication is "join us or we'll make you join us".

7. Orks. Although they go to war just for the fun of killing, they are not xenophobic (because they fight other races AND themselves), they are not that evil just because they were made that way, and are too stoopid to change their ways.

8. Tyranids. No sense of morality, no xenophobia, nothing. They just consume other systems by instinct. So they're least evil.

And also, to the people who think that there is good in 40K, I have to destroy your lives (mwahahahaha) there is no good, there is no evil. There is only war. One force thinks they are good, and they think that the others are evil.

Gen.Steiner
07-02-2008, 17:21
Oh yes. The xenophobic, rasist empire that killed millions to only exist, and exterminate everything that is not human, simply because it's_not_human. That's not even being patriotic. That's hatred to every other species (Well, except Wolfes and Eagles), just because of pure, mindless hatred.

Correction - it's righteous, pure, cleansing hatred of every other sentient species because they are a plague upon the galaxy which, by divine right, is Humanity's manifest destiny to control and inhabit until the end of time.

The Imperium of Humanity is the only morally positive force in 40K. It's brutally simple and simply brutal, to paraphrase the Orks, but there it is.

LoneSniperSG
07-02-2008, 17:37
No. No. NO! NOOOOOOO! No.

C'tan=/=Eat souls.

C'tan do not eat souls! Souls are part of the Warp! Warp is to C'tan as peanut oil is to... people who are allergic to it. They hate it! No! No souls! C'tan do not eat souls! Blarghagargleh! Maratabaladabnootish! No! No souls!

I hope I've been clear. It's life essence they want. Not souls.



Good man Steiner. For the Emperor!

... Hey. Khorne Berserker, chill. I'd rather the Nightbringer take my "life essence" than Khorne taking my soul.

Sekhmet
07-02-2008, 17:51
C'Tan are evil because they can live just fine off of star stuff, but instead are entirely motivated by the desire to devour the life essence of critters they know to be sentient just because they taste better. I would equate this to eating human babies because you don't like broccoli -- clearly evil.


(I'm just playing Devil's advocate here.)

There's this other race that raises life in captivity, feeds them and takes care of them, then ruthlessly slaughters them for food. They could also eat arguably less-tasty things but rarely choose to. That race would be Humans.

Now you might argue that cows, pigs, chicken and other animals aren't sentient, they aren't as high a life form as humans, thus are fair game. How do you think the C'tan see life in the galaxy? They see us as, and I quote, as cattle.

If the cows and pigs formed an alliance and started to fight back, don't you think Humans would quickly put down the uprising? I know I would... food should stay that way, I shouldn't have to talk to my food (Wicked!).


... Hey. Khorne Berserker, chill. I'd rather the Nightbringer take my "life essence" than Khorne taking my soul.
Both could happen. When you die from physical means (whether it be a lasgun or the Nightbringer), your soul is cast adrift on the warp... right into the clutches of daemons... unless you're a particularly devout human, have a soul stone, or a pact with the Chaos Gods. So you could be both eaten by the Nightbringer and have your soul devoured by Khorne at the same time.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-02-2008, 18:14
... Hey. Khorne Berserker, chill. I'd rather the Nightbringer take my "life essence" than Khorne taking my soul.

But the point is not what's worse, it's what really is. Besides... Sekhmet brought up that other heartwarming possibility. :chrome:

Meriwether brings up good points. I agree somewhat.

But Steiner wins the thread through 'good, honest human hatred,' in the words of Inquisitor Agnar. :D

Ddraiglais
07-02-2008, 18:14
The question, of course, depends on what evil _is_.

...and now, to kick the hornet's nest a little:

That would be the million dollar question.


It always bothers me that people immediately say that 'good' or 'evil' are subjective terms. Is cultural relativism so ingrained that we now take this assertion to be truth?

They are subjective terms. Let's take a simple thing like clothing. To strict Muslims, showing a little ankle or anything more than the eyes is sinful. While it is not a great evil, it is still immoral. To most Westerners, treating women like that is extremely wrong; if not immoral. Now if people on one planet can't even agree on a simple thing like clothing, how are we going to agree on something that's as complex as a set of morals?

[QUOTE=Meriwether;2334846]Just because some (or a lot, or even all) people say that evil is relative/subjective doesn't mean that evil _is_ relative/subjective. If my personal beliefs determine what is and is not evil, then 'evil' has no meaning. (And thus neither does 'good'.)

It does have meaning. It just doesn't have a hard and fixed meaning.


...and so we all go careening off the edge of the Nietzchian Abyss into nihilism, where nothing means anything and all questions (and answers) are pointless.

You are making an assumption that nihilism is a bad thing. :p


Personally, I reject the *assumption* that evil and good are relative. I *believe* that they are absolute. My belief in absolute morality holds _at least as much_ validity as others' belief in relative morality (and one can argue that relative morality quickly leads to no morality at all, and thus is entirely meaningless... ...and if morality is entirely meaningless, then 'relative morality' means nothing... And thus if morality exists at all, it must be absolute). The morality of any given fantasy world likely depends on its spiritual cosmology (including the nature of the soul, the existence of God or Gods, the real presence of souls in the Warp, etc.).

You are assuming that relative morality leads to no morality at all. Then you make a nice play on the meaning of the word 'meaning'. Getting back to 40K, absolute morality can't exist as every single faction has different standards of morality. If humans on one planet in the 21st century can't agree on little morals, how is it possible for different species across millions of worlds to even come close?


Note, please, that I am nowhere close to arrogant enough to presume that I know, in all situations, what is and is not good or evil. I'm not claiming to be the authority, here! I have some good general ideas that altruism is good and sadism is bad...

I personally believe that there is nothing more evil than altruism. The very thought of it turns my stomach.


I *postulate* that one can be evil without thinking that one is evil (e.g. Tony Soprano, Adolf Hitler). Nobody actually thinks they're the bad guy, and they have what they perceive to be good reasons to do what they do.

Here you will get no argument from me. While there might be a serial killer or other rare case where the person knew what they were doing, but wanted to be the bad guy; most people think they are doing the right thing.


I also *postulate* that one must be sentient in order to be evil. Non-sentient creatures are amoral forces of nature, like the wind that brings down a tree that crushes a guy... Neither the wind nor the tree *murdered* him, even though they *killed* him. That was _unfortunate_, not _evil_.

Now, let's apply this to 40K.
Creatures without sentience (e.g. necron warriors, tyranids, etc.) are neither good nor evil, they are amoral. (The tyranids because they are basically animals, and the necrons because they have no force of will with which to resist the evil commands of their masters. They're like trees blown down by the wind).

I won't argue with your tree theory. I agree 100% with the Nids. I am not as versed with Necrons to argue that they may have some way to assert themselves.


As for everything else (from C'Tan to your average guardsman), if they choose to do good, they are good, and if they choose to do evil, they are evil. If they accidentally do evil, they may be less culpable for the evil that they have done, especially if they do what they can to atone for it.

Now we are back to figuring out what is good and what is evil. Is it good to destroy an entire planet with billions of people because they went against your view of good?


Orks, for example, have a _penchant_ for violence, but they have intelligence, and thus do not need to succumb to thier urges. Just because they have much stronger instincts towards violence does not mean that they are less evil for having succumbed to those instincts. They care nothing for the pain and suffering of others, and look out only for themselves. (They are the Tony Sopranos of the 40th millennium...)

So violence is evil? I've never thought so.


Dark Eldar have a system for staving off Slaanesh, but there is a less evil alternative (e.g. the craftworlds, and/or the harlequins) that they choose not to follow. They also rejoice in the pain and suffering of others. They are thus evil, and pretty much through-and-through.

I really can't make an argument for DE. They are evil.


C'Tan are evil because they can live just fine off of star stuff, but instead are entirely motivated by the desire to devour the life essence of critters they know to be sentient just because they taste better. I would equate this to eating human babies because you don't like broccoli -- clearly evil.

Hmmm, we eat lesser animals. They are gods. In their view, we are nothing more than cattle. I don't think you could convince me that they are totally evil. I could eat vegetables instead of meat. I choose to eat meat. I'm sure from the little piggy's view, I'm an evil bastard.


All of the other races are pretty much a mixed bag, sometimes behaving in evil ways and sometimes in good ways. No real surprise that no race is 100% good.

Meri

There is still the race as a whole.

Something just came up. I gotta run. I need to continue this later.

Malforus
07-02-2008, 18:20
The question, of course, depends on what evil _is_.

...and so we all go careening off the edge of the Nietzchian Abyss into nihilism, where nothing means anything and all questions (and answers) are pointless.
Meri

Holy Crap...I really think we should just step back an appreciate this. Meri is using a systematic and clear LOGICAL reasoning here folks...drink that in.

"Check out the big brain on Brian." - Jules Winnfield

But really here I think the key behind most of this commentary is based upon point of referance.

Now I disaggree with Meri's opinion here on many aspects and levels but, his argument is compelling if not just for its completeness.

Just a compliment.

Also, the Tyranids do have a sentience...the Hive mind is a sentience and as such can be found culpable.

As for the lack of culpability I would argue that it depends. "Mankiller" animals: some dogs, some grizzlies, killer bees, displaced venomous critters. The termination of single instances of these can be acceptable as rehabilition or moving them to the correct environment is cost prohibative.

Now this leads to the slippery slope, but let me just say its my view that everything IS relative. And judicous decision-making is the "strong force" that keeps society from tearing itself apart.

But seriously...props to Meri...M-F'er brought Friedrich Nietzsche to the table.

How 'bout them apples?

MaliGn
07-02-2008, 18:38
Correction - it's righteous, pure, cleansing hatred of every other sentient species because they are a plague upon the galaxy which, by divine right, is Humanity's manifest destiny to control and inhabit until the end of time.

The Imperium of Humanity is the only morally positive force in 40K. It's brutally simple and simply brutal, to paraphrase the Orks, but there it is.

Who's divinity said that? If one sees the core religions of the 40k universe as the following:

1. The Imperial Cult including subsects such as the Machine Cult etc
2. Panthaeon of Chaos
3. Gork & Mork
4. C'Tan
5. Genestealer Cultism
6. Eldar Gods and belief systems. (Both Normal and Dark share the same core religious founding)

Then it is only according to one of these that the Galaxy belongs to Humanity. Based on the Imperial cult having existed for a scant 10,000 years and Genestealer cultism being pretty much a uniquely human past-time then this leaves us with four religions older than the current Human belief system. Surely not one of these has turned to it's followers and proclaimed Humanity to be the just and right inheritors of the Galaxy.

If for arguments sake that the C'Tan, Chaos and Eldar gods are of roughly the same age (obviously Slaanesh is younger than the other three gods and was formed in part by Eldar decadence) and Gork and Mork are slightly younger but all of these pre-date the Imperial Cult, then who gives Humanity the right to believe that the universe belongs them? Answer no-one. there is no divine right to the Galaxy only Human greed. Western human greed at that, it's comparable to modern human history and imperialism of the past be it British, Roman, Persian or whatever. Human arrogance is the only reason that the Imperial cult is so set on total domination of the Galaxy, and as the Catholic church can attest religion blended with politics can lead to some of the most barbaric atrocities commitable. Makes sense to me, Imperials are the most Evil race in 40k.

Grazzy
07-02-2008, 18:42
Tsk! Of all the posters in this thread, only Imperialis_Dominatus and EmperorEternal don't need to be excruciated and redeemed with fire.

NOOOOO! I beg forgiveness. I am a follower of the emperor, really! Even though i don't have 570billion points of guard like yourself.

LoneSniperSG
07-02-2008, 19:05
NOOOOO! I beg forgiveness. I am a follower of the emperor, really! Even though i don't have 570billion points of guard like yourself.

And I'm a Space Wolf. I can say whatever I want and simply grin my fangy grin at your accusations of heresy.

Epic Thoughts
07-02-2008, 19:22
You can't place subjective titles like 'good' and 'evil' on the vast majority of the races in 40k, because they're all struggling for survival. Survival is the base element that drives all our instincts, desires, and plans. The Imperium, Eldar, and Tau are not capable of being labled 'good' and 'evil'. They are doing whatever they have to to ensure their continued survival, and, in that pursuit, nothing is too extreme, no act too viel. Hate the Inquisition after they've purged the galaxy of all xeno-scum and heretics, and you're capable of living in a place without those threats. Don't hate them while they're doing what they have to to protect your children.

The truly evil ones are the necron and tyranids; they consume/harvest indiscrimately, with no concern for others. Orks would fall into this category as well, but... come on, they're orks... they're not evil, they're just goofy. Well, as goofy as a six hundred pound fungiod can get when he's carrying a cleaver and shooting a gun at you.

Meriwether
07-02-2008, 19:23
How's that for a hornet's sting? Bit weak, I think! :p

LOL.


So you people calling the Tau communists realize that communism is based on a classless society which is the complete opposite of what the Tau are, right? No really, you do know what words mean before you use them, right?

Try telling anyone who lived in the Soviet Union that they had a 'classless' society. I have a wide variety of Russian and Eastern-block friends, and they'd all take great issue with the assertion that there is anything 'classless' about the implementation of Marx/Engels' utopian vision. If the party elite (sic: ethereals) weren't an 'upper class', then there is no such thing as an 'upper class'.


There's this other race that raises life in captivity, feeds them and takes care of them, then ruthlessly slaughters them for food. They could also eat arguably less-tasty things but rarely choose to. That race would be Humans.

There's a reason I don't eat dolphin. (There's also a reason I don't eat veal.)

It's also a straw man to equate *anything* to comparable human behavior and say 'therefore not evil'. Lots of human behavior is evil.


They are subjective terms.

And again, the assertion is taken for truth. They cannot be subjective terms without also being meaningless.


Now if people on one planet can't even agree on a simple thing like clothing, how are we going to agree on something that's as complex as a set of morals?

What the heck does people agreeing about anything have to do with whether or not that thing is true? The funny thing about something true is that it doesn't matter one bit what you, I, or anyone else thinks about it. Consensus does not define reality.


It does have meaning. It just doesn't have a hard and fixed meaning.

Those statements are self-contradictory.


You are making an assumption that nihilism is a bad thing. :p

LOL. Nihilism is an incoherent thing with no place in any discussion about anything. It is also the inevitable logical consequence of moral relativism.


You are assuming that relative morality leads to no morality at all.

Correct. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that my assumptions are unfounded.


Then you make a nice play on the meaning of the word 'meaning'. Getting back to 40K, absolute morality can't exist as every single faction has different standards of morality. If humans on one planet in the 21st century can't agree on little morals, how is it possible for different species across millions of worlds to even come close?

Again, what any given person/planet/species believes or agrees to has no bearing whatsoever on what is or is not true.

You seem to want to argue with my statement that I reject moral relativism as the complete rubbish that it is. You then begin to argue by assuming moral relativism.

The only way you can argue that moral relativism is true is by starting without moral relativism as a basis. So... I encourage you to do so, and look forward to your efforts in this regard.


I personally believe that there is nothing more evil than altruism. The very thought of it turns my stomach.

Yes, helping your fellow man is _horrible_. :wtf:


I won't argue with your tree theory. I agree 100% with the Nids. I am not as versed with Necrons to argue that they may have some way to assert themselves.

...and if they did, then they'd be evil if they didn't do so...


Now we are back to figuring out what is good and what is evil.

I wasn't aware that we had left.


Is it good to destroy an entire planet with billions of people because they went against your view of good?

How does my view of good and evil have any relevance here?


So violence is evil? I've never thought so.

How does your view of violence have any relevance here? :angel:


I'm sure from the little piggy's view, I'm an evil bastard.

How does the little piggy's view of you have any relevance here? (To be less glib, if little piggy *had* a point of view, eating him would be evil.)


Now this leads to the slippery slope, but let me just say its my view that everything IS relative. And judicous decision-making is the "strong force" that keeps society from tearing itself apart.

Can you justify the view that everything IS relative without assuming relativism?

If so, can you then show that it doesn't slide us right into Nietzsche's abyss?


NOOOOO! I beg forgiveness. I am a follower of the emperor, really! Even though i don't have 570billion points of guard like yourself.

Innocence proves nothing. Report to your cell for castigation.

Meri

Sekhmet
07-02-2008, 19:30
There's a reason I don't eat dolphin. (There's also a reason I don't eat veal.)

It's also a straw man to equate *anything* to comparable human behavior and say 'therefore not evil'. Lots of human behavior is evil.


I'm not saying "therefore not evil", I'm saying Humans are the evil ones as well, but preferring certain foods doesn't make C'tan the ultimate evil in the galaxy. Just because they have the means doesn't mean they're really evil incarnate. I'd give that to Chaos, who do evil for evil's sake. The Dark Eldar do evil to save their eternal souls, so at least they have an excuse.

intellectawe
07-02-2008, 19:53
You can't place subjective titles like 'good' and 'evil' on the vast majority of the races in 40k, because they're all struggling for survival. Survival is the base element that drives all our instincts, desires, and plans. The Imperium, Eldar, and Tau are not capable of being labled 'good' and 'evil'. They are doing whatever they have to to ensure their continued survival, and, in that pursuit, nothing is too extreme, no act too viel. Hate the Inquisition after they've purged the galaxy of all xeno-scum and heretics, and you're capable of living in a place without those threats. Don't hate them while they're doing what they have to to protect your children.

The truly evil ones are the necron and tyranids; they consume/harvest indiscrimately, with no concern for others. Orks would fall into this category as well, but... come on, they're orks... they're not evil, they're just goofy. Well, as goofy as a six hundred pound fungiod can get when he's carrying a cleaver and shooting a gun at you.

So you just tell us that when a race of beings kill to survive, they are not being evil, right? They struggle to survive, according to you.

Then you actually label the only TWO races who have to kill to gather food to survive, and you label them as evil?!?!

I am confused by your contradiction.

Tyranids are no better than animals, and Necrons (for their C'tan) kill for food, which is no different than modern humans killing cows and sheep for meat.


I'd give that to Chaos, who do evil for evil's sake. The Dark Eldar do evil to save their eternal souls, so at least they have an excuse.

No, DE do not have an excuse, as I have mentioned on the last page. DE could easily turn the path of their other Kin and save their souls through the use of Soul Stones, but instead DE 'choose' to be murderous, self loving hedonistic scum bags because they 'like' being bastards.

From the moment of birth, DE are taught to slave, kill, torture and murder to gain power among their Kin. DE like sacrificing slaves to Slaneesh because this grants them agelessness, something their other Kin, the Eldar, cannot do, or actually, do not wish to do.

Of course they sacrifice slaves to live, but they do have choices.

I do agree with you about Chaos. But not the Chaos Gods themselves, but the Marines and Imperial Guard that choose to follow them. They are some ripe evil turds! :)

WH40KAj
07-02-2008, 19:58
I hate Imperium and I'd be quite happy to let the nids win, bio-mass me as a gaunt WTF!

I mean it, better that than living in 40K as a human in my book!

WH40KAj

Meriwether
07-02-2008, 20:11
I'm not saying "therefore not evil", I'm saying Humans are the evil ones as well, but preferring certain foods doesn't make C'tan the ultimate evil in the galaxy.


Tyranids are no better than animals, and Necrons (for their C'tan) kill for food, which is no different than modern humans killing cows and sheep for meat.

Same questions to both of you:

Assuming that the one doing the eating is sentient...
1. ...is there no distinction between sentient and non-sentient foods?
2. ...are eating broccoli and eating babies equivalent acts?

Meri

Super Ninja
07-02-2008, 20:25
Most Evil: Imperium of Man, for all the reasons mentioned above and so much more, The Orwellian lifestyle into which they force their populace to live under, the way they are completely intolerent of any other species' right to existence. Even to question the idea of the Imperium is regarded as a heretical act, punishable by at best death and at worst the unthinkable tortures of the Ordo Hereticus. Free will is completely removed from the average imperial subject, even those deemed to be "free" let alone the monstrous ritual lobotomisation of humans by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Even the brainwashing and indoctrination of children until they become Space Marines is pretty barbaric. Based on this the evil of Chaos becomes merely a facet of the Imperial propaganda machine.

Necrons: Which is more evil? the so called desire to destroy everything, or the desire to enslave it all? Surely ruling everything that exists whether they want you to rule them or not is worse than a desire for utter annihilation? This argument can apply to Tyranids as well, and with a little more thought we result in the scale of Evil with 1 as the most evil.

1. Imperium of Man.
2. Dark Eldar. (this is simply a scale issue)
3. Tau Empire. (Slightly less barbaric but similar results of an enslaved galaxy)
4. Necrons
5. Tyranids (Similar in intent to Necrons, but due to inscrutableness of Hive Mind compared to C'Tan lower points)
6. Chaos. (After all torture is torture and murder is murder, and it's fair to say their pretty sick, I'm not quite sure where to put them, possibly in at number 2)
7. Eldar. (A dying race, struggling for survival, but previous actions may have been much more evil than current activity may show.)
8. Orks. (Just out for a fight, possibly not goog guys, but certainly not all that Evil)

Another human race basher eh? Don't worry, you'll grow out of it like I did:rolleyes:. Remember, you're (we're) human to. Im not going to post cuz i don't have time to get sucked into another pointles morality debate.

P.S. 1. Us 6. Chaos? ...ok... :(

Ddraiglais
07-02-2008, 20:44
Try telling anyone who lived in the Soviet Union that they had a 'classless' society. I have a wide variety of Russian and Eastern-block friends, and they'd all take great issue with the assertion that there is anything 'classless' about the implementation of Marx/Engels' utopian vision. If the party elite (sic: ethereals) weren't an 'upper class', then there is no such thing as an 'upper class'.

Here you are correct sir. I love the comparison between the party elite and the etherals. May I use that in future debates?


There's a reason I don't eat dolphin. (There's also a reason I don't eat veal.)

There's a reason I don't eat veal, but I doubt it's the same as your's. :D


And again, the assertion is taken for truth. They cannot be subjective terms without also being meaningless.

Then 'good' and 'evil' are meaningless terms. This whole thread (and tons of books, lectures, television programs, emails, threads, blogs, jobs, etc) would also be meaningless.


What the heck does people agreeing about anything have to do with whether or not that thing is true? The funny thing about something true is that it doesn't matter one bit what you, I, or anyone else thinks about it. Consensus does not define reality.

Then you can't have truth. Two people could see an identical thing and not agree on what they saw. Truth cannot exist outside of one's perception. EVERYTHING is filtered through an individual's preconceived notions about truth.


Those statements are self-contradictory.

No they are not. Their meaning is determined by the above mentioned notions.


LOL. Nihilism is an incoherent thing with no place in any discussion about anything. It is also the inevitable logical consequence of moral relativism.

I think you may have missed the smiley. :p


Correct. It would be a mistake, however, to assume that my assumptions are unfounded.

Your assumptions are founded in philosophy instead of reality. It's been too long since I've taken a philosophy class. It was interesting to read what some of the great philosophers said, but the way they go about arguing is ridiculous.


Again, what any given person/planet/species believes or agrees to has no bearing whatsoever on what is or is not true.

Then what are we to base what is or is not true on?


You seem to want to argue with my statement that I reject moral relativism as the complete rubbish that it is. You then begin to argue by assuming moral relativism.

Again, this is a shortcoming of philosophy. Reality sees things as relative.


The only way you can argue that moral relativism is true is by starting without moral relativism as a basis. So... I encourage you to do so, and look forward to your efforts in this regard.

Your philosophy profs must be real proud. :D The bottom line is that everything in existence is relative. Philosophy tends to reject this. You will walk away smiling as you have beaten me in this argument both philisophically and logically. I will walk away wishing that I remembered more from my philosophy classes, but happy that I'm based more in reality.

Ddraiglais
07-02-2008, 20:45
Yes, helping your fellow man is _horrible_. :wtf:

I can't think of many things more evil.


...and if they did, then they'd be evil if they didn't do so...

Assuming that the C'tan are evil. You still haven't put forth anything saying what evil is.


I wasn't aware that we had left.

Well then, let's start defining then. I'll let you go first.


How does my view of good and evil have any relevance here?

Because the OP asked us to rank the races of 40K on how good or evil they are. That would also assume that we have certain views about good and evil to be able to rate the races.


How does your view of violence have any relevance here? :angel:

Because the OP asked us to rank the races of 40K on how good or evil they are. That would also assume that we have certain views about good and evil to be able to rate the races.


How does the little piggy's view of you have any relevance here? (To be less glib, if little piggy *had* a point of view, eating him would be evil.)

Because the OP asked us to rank the races of 40K on how good or evil they are. That would also assume that we have certain views about good and evil to be able to rate the races.

While the piggy was not asked about his views, he was given as an example. :p


Can you justify the view that everything IS relative without assuming relativism?


Meri

No I doubt that can be done. Can you show me where philosophy is a real science and not just some dreamers who are disconnected from reality? FYI I love philosophy. It's a lot of fun. It's just not a hard science.

While were at it, instead of attacking the arguments like philosophy teaches you to do, why not add to the original discussion? What are your definitions of good and evil? How would you rate the races in 40K? You seem to be altruistic in your ideology. I would have thought that that would make you lean towards the Tau, but then you compared them to the Eastern European countries during the Cold War. I'm interested to see which factions you would put where and why.

Please don't take anything I'm saying as personal attacks if I sound a bit harsh. I am attacking philosphy though. It is a great way to say a whole bunch without saying anything at all about the subject at hand. You seem well versed in philosophy, but this is a 40K board.

Sorry about the double post, but the board wouldn't let me do it any other way.

Keichi246
07-02-2008, 20:46
The question, of course, depends on what evil _is_.

It always bothers me that people immediately say that 'good' or 'evil' are subjective terms. Is cultural relativism so ingrained that we now take this assertion to be truth?

Just because some (or a lot, or even all) people say that evil is relative/subjective doesn't mean that evil _is_ relative/subjective. If my personal beliefs determine what is and is not evil, then 'evil' has no meaning. (And thus neither does 'good'.)

...and so we all go careening off the edge of the Nietzchian Abyss into nihilism, where nothing means anything and all questions (and answers) are pointless.

I am going to stop and disagree with you here. Lack of belief in an absolute morality does not necessarily equate with Nihilism. I do believe in relative morality - but I believe the relativism is not necessarily chosen by the person as much as it is by the society.

For example - Me pulling out a gun and randomly killng someone is considered wrong by most moral codes. (including mine... :D) However - me pulling out a gun and killing someone who is directly threatening *my* life can be considered self defense - which most moral codes consider acceptable. The action is the same - the act of me pulling out my gun and shooting - but the morality is different based on the circumstances.

Extending that example - what is the moral difference between me killing someone threatening me, me killing someone directly threatening my wife, me killng someone who is threatening someone else (like a random neighbor child), me killing someone who is mortally wounded and totally untreatable (where letting them live may be considered sadism), and me killing someone who is threatening my country - but hasn't taken any overt actions yet? The circumstances of the situation go a long way towards determining if the action is moral. Absolute rules tend to get cluttered when reality gets involved.


Personally, I reject the *assumption* that evil and good are relative. I *believe* that they are absolute. My belief in absolute morality holds _at least as much_ validity as others' belief in relative morality (and one can argue that relative morality quickly leads to no morality at all, and thus is entirely meaningless... ...and if morality is entirely meaningless, then 'relative morality' means nothing... And thus if morality exists at all, it must be absolute).

I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't believe there is an absolute morality - the morality of any decision *has* to be evaluated in the circumstances in which the decision was made. There are times when killing is right, and when killing is wrong. I do not believe it is possible for any absolute code to clarify all the specific circumstances when which is which. And if that is the case for something as "easy" a moral choice of "killing justified?", then looking at something that is truly morally ambiguous is impossible....

And that in a nutshell - is why I disagree with your point....

****
To the 40k discussion. I think it boils down to the Ethics of Survival.

For all the races in 40k, they are mostly just attempting to survive. Therefore - the racial morality distinction is kinda pointless. In their eyes - they are doing "Good" - because survival trumps morality.

Looking at it through the lens of *my* morality - I can say which races I belive come closest to my moral compass - and therefore are good or evil in my eyes.

Evil
Dark Eldar - Survival doesn't mean you have to enjoy it. Sadists....
C'Tan - Just because life forces are yummy doesn't make eating them right. They also seem to enjoy inflicting suffering a bit (Deciever)
Eldar - The whole "one Eldar life is worth more than a billion mon-keigh" thing....
Imperium of Man - This is borderline - I'd accept the survival argument - except that the Imperium seems to take overreaction to a special level. Destroying everyone on a planet simply because you are too lazy to figure out who the real chaos cultists are? That's kinda evil. Their idea of "acceptable collateral damage" is a little high for my tastes...
Orks - Borderline evil - they are big into casual cruelty of others. The problem is they are so damn tough - they don't realize that their horseplay is lethal combat to others...

Ammoral - Simply because morality implies choice otherwise...
Necrons - when yer programmed to go stomp - you have no choice.
Tyranids - they are ammoral because consume and reproduce are core aspects to all living beings. They just don't realize/care what they are doing...

Good
Tau - borderline. Ethics of survival indicate that they HAVE to expand to have any chance to survive on the Galactic scale. They DON'T believe in casual cruelty though, and they tend to negotiate first before killing. That puts them head and shoulders above the other 40k races. Members of their society do not appear to be particularly oppressed either. (Note that even within the caste systems - there is a fair amount of upward mobility. Since the Caste system is significantly genetic; and even within the caste roles - there are lots of jobs to do... I don't see the caste system as particularly oppressive to the citizens. Joe the Fire Caste member can be a frontline fire warrior, or one of the shipboard marines, or a law enforcement offical, or a liason with Earth caste weapons development... etc)

Those are just my perceptions though...

Serg. Lynchbox
07-02-2008, 21:25
I bet C'Tan and Dark ELdar would make great buddies if they looked pass their differences! lol

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-02-2008, 21:35
NOOOOO! I beg forgiveness. I am a follower of the emperor, really! Even though i don't have 570billion points of guard like yourself.

Forgiveness is akin to treachery. Off to the dungeons with you.


*snip*

Follow Grazzy to the Inquisitor's... er... office. Yes. Not dungeon.


I hate Imperium and I'd be quite happy to let the nids win, bio-mass me as a gaunt WTF!

I mean it, better that than living in 40K as a human in my book!

WH40KAj

You too.

/judgementday

JimmyP0567
07-02-2008, 22:06
Good: Imperium of Humanity.

Evil: Everybody else.

It's easy. I don't know what the problem is, I really don't.

I agree 100%.

Ronin_eX
07-02-2008, 22:15
1) Dark Eldar: They created a Chaos God because of their lifestyle and despite the great danger they continue fruitlessly in their original lifestyle. Despite knowing what they are doing damages not only the galaxy but themselves as well. They are shortsighted and evil in the extreme, their tragic tale does nothing to absolve them of the horrible things they still do despite knowing better.

2) Chaos: They are selfish, brutish and will turn on you in a second if it benefits them even slightly. They virus bomb planets for the fun of it, the cede plagues and set men against each other just to see the struggle. They slaughter for no actual reason and the worst of them try to hide behind the excuses that they want to free people of the Imperium.

3) C'Tan: Reall about on the same level as Chaos but slightly less because their evil is fuelled by hunger. They wish to subjugate the Galaxy to their will and will do anything to make sure it happens including tricking an entire race into giving up their sentience so that they could serve as an implacable army of death.

4) Tyranid: Saying they are just animals is looking too much at the individual bug. Zoom out to the larger picture and it is certain that they are a sentient race. The hive mind wills them to exterminate and assimilate all life in the universe. It has eaten at least one Galaxy already. It has snuffed out the lives of untold trillions (or more) with no remorse and no mercy. Call it hunger or instinct but they are not an aimless swarm of locusts, they are much bigger and more cunning than a simple swarm of pests.

5) Tau: Yes, I put them ahead of the Imperium in evil. But I think people play up the Imperial distrust of aliens too much. The Imperium is weary of aliens (and I think we would be to when they all act like they do in the 40k-verse). The Tau Empire is an Empire of Slavers and Despots who subjugate through force and through treachery. Remember that the Tau are alive now because the Imperium didn't exterminate them when they were young and primitive. The Tau certainly aren't giving the same concession to the Imperium. The Tau subjugate all races they come across and assimilate them. The Imperium, to my knowledge will actually form trade agreements and alliances with alien races if it suits them and the race isn't dangerous.

6) Eldar: Much like the Imperium they know how to sacrifice their nature to survive. On the other hand their psychic abilities allow them to usually sacrifice others instead of themselves. What's a few billion human lives to a few thousand Eldar after all?

7) The Imperium of Man: They can be despotic and orwellian but in the end they are doing what is needed to survive. The various Inquisitions serve a very useful purpose in an empire as varied as the Imperium. Were normal enforcement methods used to police the empire it would have fallen apart millennia ago. Inquisitors do what is needed even if they lose a little humanity to do it. They do their job to save the trillions of people in the Imperium and if it means sacrificing a few million to save the rest they will do it. Like it or not the universe is a dog-eat-dog one and the Imperium realized the only way to survive is to be the biggest meanest dog there is. The whole point of the Imperium is that it is insane and evil in many ways but that the only reason they are alive at all is because they are how they are.

"Only the insane have strength to prosper, only those who prosper can judge what is truly sane."

8) Orks: They spread across the Galaxy like a plague, they will kill or enslave anything that gets in their way, they live to fight and kill but out of all the races in the 40k-verse they are the most primitive and instinct driven of all. They are genetically engineered to fight and so it is their actual nature (but they have no evil hive mind or star god calling the shots). They are more or less on the same level as the Imperium (which is why they are such good foils for eachother).

I will also note that the Exterminatus so often cited as a reason why the Imperium is so evil is neither widely used, enjoyed by anyone or used out of laziness. I think many of us simply underestimate what Chaotic influence can do to a world. It isn't used in the case of a small cult (an Inquisitor is used to handle that quietly) it is used when all defences are overrun and the world is in danger of becoming a nexus of Chaos or a young Daemon World. Destroying a whole planet is a last resort for the Imperium and not even the most callous Inquisitor or Space Marine Commander will use it if other options exist (see the story of the Deathwing for an example of where it hasn't been used as an option).

You cut out a tumour before it becomes inoperable brain cancer, that is the philosophy behind the use of the Inquisition. An Inquisitor is a scalpel but if the infection has spread further than a small cut will handle (a small tumour like a minor cult will be easy enough for an Inquisitor to solve without anything major) than something bigger may have to go. Call it cruel but if it saves the Galaxy then it is probably the best way around it.

Angelus Mortis
07-02-2008, 22:35
4. Imperium of Man- fascistic, xenophobic, completely paranoid and intolerant, willing to exterminate entire populations in order to maintain the status quo.

While I do agree the Imperium is harsh and cruel, I dont think its evil. They are harsh and cruel within a means to ensure the survival of humanity and to prevent it from being corrupted. Its mainly the actions of the Xenos and Chaos that has caused man to adopt such a policy. As I stated in an eariler thread about "was the Imperium ever not xenophobic", I think they were very open and friendly, until they met the first alien.


8. Tyranids- Least evil race, IMO, because the concept of "morality" does not exist to them. They simply act according to their instincts.

I also dont agree with this as the Tyranids are guided by an intelligence. The fact that the minions are mostly animalistic and instinctive is irrelevant, as the force that guides them is intelligent. It guides them to devour everything in its path without regard to emotion or reason and this by definition is evil.

I think in the 40k universe, you have to look at the ends not the means to those ends to truely define good or evil. I also think that many were made deliberately grey so as to give them more character. A conflicted bad guy whose a hero is a very interesting character indeed. People just arent interested in the good guy with the white hat, bad guy with the black hat anymore.

Sekhmet
07-02-2008, 23:38
Same questions to both of you:

Assuming that the one doing the eating is sentient...
1. ...is there no distinction between sentient and non-sentient foods?
2. ...are eating broccoli and eating babies equivalent acts?

Meri

1 - I don't think so.

2 - yes there is a difference. One is rich in protein, the other is green.

But seriously, eating one isn't cannibalism, eating the other is. Not that cannibalism is evil... it's just not that great for the continuation of the species. Our ideals of good and evil really are based on the betterment of society. If C'tan eat us, we're looking at it as evil because we're being exterminated. But if there's an infestation of rats with the plague (and fleas too), would we be evil to exterminate the rats? To the C'tan, the plague is the warp. To them, we're hardly sentient. Eldrad Ulthran knows that the Deceiver's intellect overshadows his own, The Deceiver's foresight is much greater than Eldrads could ever be.


I bet C'Tan and Dark Eldar would make great buddies if they looked pass their differences! lol
The DE hate the C'tan as much as the Craftworld Eldar hate the C'tan. The Eldar race was bred to fight C'tan... there's no way they'd look past their "differences."

intellectawe
08-02-2008, 02:34
Same questions to both of you:

Assuming that the one doing the eating is sentient...
1. ...is there no distinction between sentient and non-sentient foods?
2. ...are eating broccoli and eating babies equivalent acts?

Meri

You are not taking your modern views of humanity out of the picture.

You have to look at Cattle as the same way Necron C'Tan look at the Imperium.

NO, there is no distinction between sentient and non sentient food because to both the Tyrands and C'Tan, there is no difference. These are terms as you understand them.

For Tyranids, there is no difference between Broccoli and Babies. They are both sources of proteins. And as for C'tan, consider them Carnivorous. They have no use for Broccoli, as they don't eat plant life. They only eat the souls of living creature which have souls.




1) Dark Eldar: They created a Chaos God because of their lifestyle and despite the great danger they continue fruitlessly in their original lifestyle. Despite knowing what they are doing damages not only the galaxy but themselves as well. They are shortsighted and evil in the extreme, their tragic tale does nothing to absolve them of the horrible things they still do despite knowing better.

Sorry, you are incorrect. Before/during the fall, there was no 'Dark Eldar'. All there was, was Eldar. Period. Eldar, which you have further down your list, are not a separate race during the fall. You can actually say ALL Eldar were Dark Eldar from an outsiders point of view during the fall, but as far as Eldar and DE are concerned, they were just all one 'Eldar' or 'kin'.

Stormhammers
08-02-2008, 02:37
I agree 100%.

seconded, 200%

Gen.Steiner
08-02-2008, 04:46
But Steiner wins the thread through 'good, honest human hatred,' in the words of Inquisitor Agnar. :D

My armour, to quote a certain Mr Abnett, is contempt.
My shield is hatred.
My sword is my faith.

And the best bit?

It's all true! Bwahahahaha! :D


Who's divinity said that?

Why, the only one that counts - that of His Divine Majesty, the God-Emperor of Humanity, Lord of Terra and all the Stars. Obviously.

GodofWarTx
08-02-2008, 05:26
Dear fellow Warseerites: if you were to rank the 40k races in accordance to how evil they are (ie which is the most evil race in the galaxy), how would they be ranked?

I, for one, would rank them as follows:

1. Dark Eldar- actively inflict pain and misery upon others, and take satisfaction in doing so; pride themselves on ruthlessness and capacity for treachery

2. Necrons- kill other races out of a pure, xenophobic (and life-o-phobic) hatred, which is the only emotion they are capable of. The C'tan, meanwhile, vary in degrees of evil, from downright cruel (ie the Deciever) to simply acting on their urges (ie the Nightbringer, the Outsider).

3. Chaos Space Marines- although some Legions do evil for evil's sake or for their own satisfaction, other legions act purely out of devotion to their gods, while others still act purely out of hatred for the Imperium which they believe betrayed them.

4. Imperium of Man- fascistic, xenophobic, completely paranoid and intolerant, willing to exterminate entire populations in order to maintain the status quo.

5. Orks- are brutal, warlike, aggressive.....but are like this simply because they are born that way, so at least they have a better excuse than humanity. Plus, they don't actively persecute their own kind on the same degree as the Imperium.

6. Eldar- Pretty much guilty of the same things as the Imperium (ie willing to kill millions to preserve Eldar lives). However, they do not persecute their own people as willingly as the Imperium does.

7. Tau- actually COEXIST with other races (even though their idea of coexistence is "join our empire, or we'll conquer you anyway")

8. Tyranids- Least evil race, IMO, because the concept of "morality" does not exist to them. They simply act according to their instincts.


Any thoughts? Personally, I'm still pretty iffy as to whether or not the Orks should be above the Imperium, or vice versa.


Just because they have no "concept of morality" doesnt mean that Tyranids cant be the most evil of all. They dont even consider any other race, being, lifeform, or resource as being morally signifigant. They dont seek to co-exist, they exist to completely dominate. You cant reason with the hive mind, it doesnt care, it sees itself as being completely superior to everything else and has claimed all resources as its own. Nothing is left off the table either, there are no ethical limits to its methods/tactics or mutations. It is taking selfish behavior to the extreme. This is not something within the state of nature, they are clearly beyond any "galactic" ecological foodchain, if there is one, and seek only to gorge themselves on the galaxy, and that my friends is gluttony, one of the seven deadly sins :)

For humanity, it was not just humankinds own natural course that lead them to such a plan of xenophobia and anti-mutation. It had to do with several thousand years of galactic slavery and near extinction in the DAOT before the Great Crusade. In our own world history we have several groups that still hold to heart previous injustices to them , some several thousand years old.

And is it paranoia when the galaxy IS waiting to devour humanity? ;)

Meriwether
08-02-2008, 12:37
Here you are correct sir. I love the comparison between the party elite and the etherals. May I use that in future debates?

Yes, of course.


There's a reason I don't eat veal, but I doubt it's the same as your's.

I regretted bringing that one up, as I regretted responding to the question about the piggy. The simple fact is that critters have to die in order for me to live. (If one thinks, 'oh, no, Mr. Meri, you could go vegan!' then that person has no notion of how many critters die every time one plows a field).


Then you can't have truth. Two people could see an identical thing and not agree on what they saw. Truth cannot exist outside of one's perception.

Not having truth and not being able to definitely know truth are different things. You seem to be confusing the two.


EVERYTHING is filtered through an individual's preconceived notions about truth.

Even gravity?


I think you may have missed the smiley.

No, I didn't. Perhaps I just have no sense of humor. :D


Your assumptions are founded in philosophy instead of reality.

That's a false dichotomy. (I'm a physics teacher, BTW).


Then what are we to base what is or is not true on?

You're still stuck on that fundamental assumption that we, in some way, define what is and is not true.


Reality sees things as relative.

As a scientist, I can't disagree with this more.


Your philosophy profs must be real proud.

I never took any philosophy classes. I'm self-taught. (And I make me so proud!) ;)


The bottom line is that everything in existence is relative.

Again, I reject that unfounded assertion.


Philosophy tends to reject this.

A lot of modern philosophy does not.




Assuming that the C'tan are evil. You still haven't put forth anything saying what evil is.

I would say that deliberately causing harm to sentient beings is evil in many circumstances.


Because the OP asked us to rank the races of 40K on how good or evil they are.

Yeah, but you weren't responding to the OP, you were responding to my post rejecting the assumption of relative morality. I still fail to see the relevance of those things you brought up. Nice glib reply to my glib replies, though. :D


While were at it, instead of attacking the arguments like philosophy teaches you to do, why not add to the original discussion? What are your definitions of good and evil? How would you rate the races in 40K? You seem to be altruistic in your ideology. I would have thought that that would make you lean towards the Tau, but then you compared them to the Eastern European countries during the Cold War. I'm interested to see which factions you would put where and why.

I basically already did that. I stated my feelings on good and evil, and then applied it to the 40K races. It was always my intent to keep my post on-topic!


Please don't take anything I'm saying as personal attacks if I sound a bit harsh.

Likewise. I think we're all having fun here.


I am going to stop and disagree with you here. Lack of belief in an absolute morality does not necessarily equate with Nihilism.

It does when you consider a clash of cultures/societies. The topic is far too broad to get in to here... We could start another thread, or move it to PM?


For example - Me pulling out a gun and randomly killng someone is considered wrong by most moral codes. (including mine... :D) However - me pulling out a gun and killing someone who is directly threatening *my* life can be considered self defense - which most moral codes consider acceptable. The action is the same - the act of me pulling out my gun and shooting - but the morality is different based on the circumstances.

This example shows that you're clearly misunderstanding what is meant by 'absolute morality'. Statements like 'killing another person is always wrong' are absolute, but they are also overly simplistic. One does not need to accept overly-simplistic arguments in order to accept absolute morality. Clearly, the evilness or goodness of most actions depends on the circumstances surrounding those actions. That doesn't mean that our beliefs about the goodness or evilness influences whether or not it was good or evil.


The circumstances of the situation go a long way towards determining if the action is moral. Absolute rules tend to get cluttered when reality gets involved.

I agree completely with both statements. Then again, relative rules tend to get cluttered when reality gets involved, too. The difference is that absolute rules have a foundation that doesn't lead us over the abyss, while relative rules do not.


I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't believe there is an absolute morality - the morality of any decision *has* to be evaluated in the circumstances in which the decision was made.

And so you've made it extra clear that you don't actually understand what 'absolute morality' means. It doesn't have to be simple, or easy to figure out, or defined with little black-and-white "killing is always wrong" simplicities.


And that in a nutshell - is why I disagree with your point....

You actually never addressed my point. Although I think that you made a valiant effort to hit the bullseye, you were aiming at the wrong target!


But if there's an infestation of rats with the plague (and fleas too), would we be evil to exterminate the rats? To the C'tan, the plague is the warp.

Plague rats pose a threat to us that warp creatures do not pose to the C'Tan. I think self-defense is quite moral.


NO, there is no distinction between sentient and non sentient food because to both the Tyrands and C'Tan, there is no difference. These are terms as you understand them.

You're still trapped in relative morality. If what the Tyranids and the C'Tan think about what is good or evil doesn't define what is good or evil, then your argument falls flat.


For Tyranids, there is no difference between Broccoli and Babies. They are both sources of proteins. And as for C'tan, consider them Carnivorous. They have no use for Broccoli, as they don't eat plant life. They only eat the souls of living creature which have souls.

...while they could just eat stars. Eating creatures you know are sentient when you could be eating non-sentient stuff is evil.

Meri

Arkondak
08-02-2008, 13:47
Chaos and the Dark Eldar are evil incarnate. If it isn't obvious by all the spikey bits, severed heads, banners made out of people, tortured slaves, bondage gear, extra limbs, deamon infestations, mutations, angry skeleton heads, rotting cancers, buboes, horns etc on the models, The long line of pointless murders, torture, rape, and genocide they commit in the fluff should be a good indication. For the most part they commit these acts for absolutely no reason other than personal power, just plain fun, or revenge for an imagined slight 10,000 years ago. Chaos worshipers serve the chaos gods directly, whereas the Dark Eldar serve them indirectly by keeping the flow of tortured souls going to slanesh. The chaos gods are manifestations of the worst emotions of sentient life given sentience. They, and those who advance their goals are, by definition, evil.

The C'tan and Tyranids are a close second. The star gods and the hive mind slaughter sentient beings by the trillions, not for survival, but just to enjoy the delicious gooey centers. They are both intelligent far in advance of any other species, and so have full understanding of what they do.
the Hive mind could have produced fewer tyranids with a thought, and kept itself alive by cycyling through it's home galaxy, but it chose to grow as large as possible and eat the entire universe.
The C'tan could have sat in their stars and lived happily for billions of years, but instead they duped an entire species to commit mass suicide to get an army of slaves. The C'tan then destroyed half the galaxy fighting a preemptive war with the old ones, who by all indication were attempting to live at peace with the c'tan's necrontyr slaves despite repeated acts of aggression. All this was just so they could go into the buisnes of people farming.

I see Orks somewhere in the middle. They are sentient, they understand that other cultures they come in contact with are sentient as well, and they choose to destroy them because it's fun.

The Tau Empire is pretty bad as well because the greater good is a lie. Using pheremonic mind control, The Etherials have instituted a rigid caste system with them at the top, other tau on the tier below, and everybody else on the bottom. For a tau citizen, decent jobs and healthy living are available, as long as it is the same job your ancestors did for untold generations. the tau don't complain though, refusing any command that an etherial gives is biologically impossible, The etherials know this, but they do not inform their slaves. For any other species in the tau empire, who were duped into joining the Tau with promises of "equality" "happyness" and "freedom" many careers are available in the mining, sweatshop, and cannon fodder industries, any attempt to improve personal conditions, being an act against the "greater good" would be met with swift lethal retribution The Tau claim to liberate, but they subjugate. The tau fight to survive, but the idealistic lie they think they are fighting for is really the cover for a far more sinister agenda that benifits only a select few.

The Imperials and Eldar are the best because they brutally murder people only to ensure their own survival, and they at least have the decency to be honest to their own people and their enemies about their intentions. the lowliest underhive gangers and street trash in the Imperium are more free than the highest ranking members of any of the tau water, air, earth, or fire castes, because they are in control of their own minds.

I would place the Imperium on top because i'm human and human survival is a really important thing for me.

Epic Thoughts
08-02-2008, 15:32
So you just tell us that when a race of beings kill to survive, they are not being evil, right? They struggle to survive, according to you.

Then you actually label the only TWO races who have to kill to gather food to survive, and you label them as evil?!?!

I am confused by your contradiction.

Tyranids are no better than animals, and Necrons (for their C'tan) kill for food, which is no different than modern humans killing cows and sheep for meat.


You know, I read your post, and I went back and read mine, and... I think you're right. I didn't really explain my feelings regarding the Tyranids and Necrons in enough depth.

Why I feel these two are the most 'evil' in 40k is because, with the other races, I can look at what they do, and I can understand why they do. I can see the reasoning (as terrible as it is sometimes), and, I can empathize with them. I can understand why The Eldar sacrifice so many other races to save themselves. I can understand why The Inquisition purges an entire planet because of one chaos cult.

I can't really do that with the Tyranids and the Necrons. I mean, I know and understand (to a point, I suppose) their lore and their reasoning, but... they represent a whole sale slaughter on such a meaningless level that... it doesn't really make alot of sense. There's nothing there I can relate with, nothing I can empathize with.

Same with the orcs; war for the sake of war. But, again, orcs are goofy. Chaos fits into this bill as well (for the most part), but, everyone knows they're evil.

I hope that better illustrates my opinion.

Mercer
08-02-2008, 15:36
Hmmm I think:

1. Chaos - worship Gods who thrive on the suffering of others, destroy worlds and millions in there names.

2. Dark Eldar - Sadistic torturers, pirates & raiders

3. Necrons - Necrons despise the Old Ones and all life created by them. The Necrons are slaves of the C'Tan, doing there bidding so they actually might not beware of what they're doing as there senses have been dampened. The C'Tan however, well the Deceivers name gives it away and the Nightbringer imprinted death on all races - except Orks.

4. Imperium - Exterminate entire worlds, kill millions for daft reasons. Inquistors seem to be the worst. Must worship the Emperor or be accused of heresy.

5. Eldar - Like the Imperium.

6. Tau - Join us, or die lol.

7. Orks - They were made that way, they cannot help. Poor green buggers lol.

8. Tyranids - They're animals and doing what they do to survive and increase there race's survival.

Mercer

intellectawe
08-02-2008, 15:45
I hope that better illustrates my opinion.

Thank you for being clear with me about your thoughts! I appreciate it very much!

I totally understand that many many players see the Hive Mind as one giant intelligence that knows what it is doing, I am no denying that one bit. And if I were to take that train of thought, I agree, nids are very evil.

But in my opinion, I like to think of nids as just locusts. The idea of nids not having an intelligence, like sentient beings, scares me more than if they did. Because if they are just animals with a huge animalistic force behind them all, there is no reasoning, nothing can stop them unless you kill all of them.

At least with the C'tan, they know when to run away and leave you alone. They will retreat and phase out, but not nids.

For me, two people can be evil. But the one who is mentally stable and knows what he is doing is 'more' evil than the mentally retarded person, who kills, but has no concept of right/wrong. You can punish and rehabilitate the person who knows what he is doing, but not the retard. You just have to 'deal' with the retard, and try your best to live with him.

So for me, the more 'evil' person is not the one I fear the most. So even though for me, the Imperium is more evil than tyranids, at least with the Imperium, I can say " I worship the emperor" and live... but not with nids.

AngryAngel
08-02-2008, 16:05
Good: Imperium of Humanity.

Evil: Everybody else.

It's easy. I don't know what the problem is, I really don't.

That is true, very true and anyone who says other, is a heretic and deserves firey death. Purge the unclean.

Ddraiglais
08-02-2008, 16:18
I regretted bringing that one up, as I regretted responding to the question about the piggy. The simple fact is that critters have to die in order for me to live. (If one thinks, 'oh, no, Mr. Meri, you could go vegan!' then that person has no notion of how many critters die every time one plows a field).

Here I can agree with you, although for entirely different reasons. :) My reason for not eating veal is purely an economical one. Of course this train of thought has gotten entirely off topic. I think we were talking about Necrons here?


Not having truth and not being able to definitely know truth are different things. You seem to be confusing the two.

No, truth is filtered by the viewer's world view. I am not sure how to exactly say what I want to to make you understand. I'm pretty sure you get my point though. You seem educated enough.


Even gravity?

Even gravity to some extent. .


No, I didn't. Perhaps I just have no sense of humor. :D

Well you did say that you were a physics teacher. LOL


That's a false dichotomy. (I'm a physics teacher, BTW).

That's interesting. I may have some other questions for you off list.


You're still stuck on that fundamental assumption that we, in some way, define what is and is not true.

We do. Everything is based on one's world view.


As a scientist, I can't disagree with this more.

Here's a simple one for you then. Is it cold in Canada at this time of year? I'm sure you already see where this is going. If you answer yes, then I'll bring up Neptune or some equally cold place to make Canada warm. Even things in science are relative. When talking about gravity on other planets scientists even use Earth's gravity to express how much/little gravity is on the other planet to lay people. "You could lift 4 x's the amount you could lift on Earth". Speed/distance in the universe is expressed in the theoretical speed of light.


I never took any philosophy classes. I'm self-taught. (And I make me so proud!) ;)

That's actually impressive.


Again, I reject that unfounded assertion.

Whether it's unfounded or not it's true, or are you saying it's not true for you?


I would say that deliberately causing harm to sentient beings is evil in many circumstances.

That's a step forward, but it's still very little and vague.


Yeah, but you weren't responding to the OP, you were responding to my post rejecting the assumption of relative morality. I still fail to see the relevance of those things you brought up. Nice glib reply to my glib replies, though. :D

LOL


I basically already did that. I stated my feelings on good and evil, and then applied it to the 40K races. It was always my intent to keep my post on-topic!

I must have missed your rankings then. I'll look through the thread again.


Likewise. I think we're all having fun here.

Good. I wouldn't want any hurt feelings.

Sekhmet
08-02-2008, 17:22
Are Kroot evil for eating sentient creatures?

Hashmal
08-02-2008, 17:31
Well, they have a time of it getting ahold of the Dark Eldar. The sentience of anything else is questionable, at best, so I say no! :D

Fangschrecken
08-02-2008, 19:52
The problem we see here is the matter of what is true. For example it is true that the earth is moving, we can all accept that as fact. But do I see it move? No. Do I feel it move? No. (no earthquakes) so by self-observation I can say that it does not move. Of course that is relative to me, but had I not been told that, I might not believe it. Now lets say youíre on the moon looking at earth? Discounting rotation, does the earth move? No, you do. But you can look in at it all from a cosmic scale (at least try to) and see that it does move.

Another example being a glass box flying through space, it has a light in it. Inside the box I can measure it and (its in the middle) say that the light hits both sides at the same time. Now if Iím outside the box i could measure and see that it takes longer to hit one side. Does this make the previous measurement false? No, everything is relative to something else, but there are some fundamental truths. The box is moving, the earth spins, maybe not relative to a specific object but they do.

So there are fundamental truths, the problem is, can they apply to human (or alien) behavior? In the long I'd say no. There is no absolute truth about good and evil, they are human concepts and are flawed as they derive from flawed creatures. This isnít what the OP was hoping for but I would say that it is not possible to answer that question with out being given a set guideline, which itself could be flawed. Making this whole discussion pointless. (Huzzah! Nihilism!)

The problem we come to after this is: "is this the best of all possible worlds?" IF there is a god it has to be, if there isnít then it may of may not, thatís opinion. So if this is the best of all possible worlds then there must be a set good and evil as it is determined by the infallible. So from our perspective one may be good, another evil, but only the almighty can rightfully determine it. (Liebnitz leads right into Nietzsche)

Though the OP probably was simply inquiring as to the general consensus from the warseer community. So, Iíll submit my views, knowing that they are completely flawed.

1. Dark Eldar, they have the option of saving themselves without harming other but choose not to.

2. Chaos, they have given themselves over to gods that exist to create pain. They have betrayed what they once stood for.

3. C'tan, not all that evil, kind of like a fat kid in a city of chocolate people, sure he could eat the veg and heís been told to, but they're chocolate!

4. Imperium/Eldar, tied here as both struggle to survive, and have to use some extreme means, but sometimes take it too far. Course inquisitor Liebnitz would say its all for the best. Hmmm...Might have to start an inquisition army...

4.5 Kroot, they have a choice, they could go and avoid obtaining new genetic material, but that would be stagnation, and for life to survive it cant stagnate, so they'd be slowly killing themselves. Right now they're just giving their offspring the best chance. They could limit themselves to stuff inside tau space, but thatís too slow for their tastes. This conscious choice is why I would say they are slightly worse than orks who don't know any better.

5. Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, while orks may have choice they have no one to tell them wrong from right, so they get off with the mindless. Like retards who shoot people thinking itís a game.

6. Tau, the only ones Iíd consider good, everyone says its join us or die, but its not that simple. Those guys try pretty hard to convince potential recruits. I mean they tried to recruit orks. Most would just give up any hope on first glimpse.

Thatís how I see it falling out, and thatís how it'll stay.

Imperialis_Dominatus
08-02-2008, 22:10
Who's divinity said that?

Steiner didn't state that a divinity said it, he said it was Humanity's divine right. It's simply Humanity's divinity. Plus, you know, the Emperor ten thousand years ago leading a Great Crusade across the galaxy spreading light and freedom*.

*subjective terms and only applicable if you're a human.

And He's the divinity that the Imperium worships (not the thread to discuss His divinity, a lil off topic, but whatever).


Why, the only one that counts - that of His Divine Majesty, the God-Emperor of Humanity, Lord of Terra and all the Stars. Obviously.

This.


Are Kroot evil for eating sentient creatures?

If they are, then I'm evil for eating bacon/steak/pork chops/meat and using the protein to build muscle, i.e. making myself stronger.

MaliGn
08-02-2008, 23:06
I wonder what the OP makes of the discussion based on various schools of philosophy that his original question has spawned.

Based on my understnading of many of the arguments before compiling a list of most Evil race in 40k it is first necessary to define "Evil" and for that matter the moral scale and standpoint from which you are defining "Evil".

i.e.

Point of View: Imperium of Man.
Characteristics of Evil: Denial of Imperial Divinity, Heretical behaviour and harbouring of heretics, failure to pay Imperial tithes, murder, robbery, witchcraft and untrained psychic activity, Being an Alien, etc.
Based on this The scale of Evil probably looks something like.
1.Chaos
2.Eldar (what there are different types?)
3.Orks (Longevity promotes them here)
4.Tyranids
5.Necrons
6.Tau

Now compare this to the following:

Point of View: Chaos Space Marine
Characteristics of Evil: The percieved betrayal of the Astartes by the weakling Emperor, weakness, since the Gods of Chaos seek things that normal men feel to be barbaric to be required traits in their followers, little seems to fall under this category, however be this as it may. it would leave the scale of evil as:
1. Imperium of Man.

To the Chaos gods, most other species are merely sacrifices, and do not really come anywhere in a scale of Evil, since, there isn't anything that they care enoguh about. I suppose that there is intra-pantheonic dispute, to a follower of Khorne, Tzeentchian worship is somewhat heretical and therefore makes the Tzeentchian follower Evil to the Khornate eye.

This could go on and on, but this is essentially the distillation of the threads various arguments, and as such leads to a redressing of the original question:

Which 40k race is most evil based on a current western human morality of the 21st century?

Im not saying1
08-02-2008, 23:25
I assume we are seeing whats "evil" from a point of view of any of the major religions of the Earth (Anything which basically says be nice to everyone, treat everyone else how you would want to be treated, if someone slaps you turn the other cheak etc), which is really what modern society is based on.

Here is how I would rank it according to a religous view of evil which is really how most people on Earth view it, even if they arent religous:

Dark Eldar: Ofcourse we would see them as evil, they kill and torture people.

Chaos Space Marines: It says in thier own codex they are ruthless and evil. In fluff, Night Lords CSMs impale ultramarines on spikes fitted to thier rhino's, open up thier ribcages, but somehow manage to keep them alive so they can experience the pain and suffering.

Necrons: Intent on exterminating all life. Though the necrons themselves may not be that evil in ther minds they still kill millions. Also taking to acount, the C'tan are really the ultimate evil in the galaxy.

Tyranids: Aiming to kill everyone, also a lot of thier victims die very horrible deaths. Though they may only act on instinct, if they came and tried to exterminate all life on earth do you think we would see them as neutral, even if we understood they are all just following the hive mind?

Orks: Though it is in thier nature and society to be as barbaric as they are, we would still view thier practices as evil, barbaric and selfish. Though from our point of view there is a twisted sense of honour about them. I dont think this race had any capicity to be selfless or herioc.

Imperium/Eldar: Basically what Fangschrecken said, though I would like to add a few things on to it. In our own eyes we are neutral, as said before, we both have the potential to be heroic and selfless. When we exterminate millions of ourselves it is really all for the benifit of the future of our race. In the long term, we are better of exterminating the millions that could be tainted by chaos, which in our view is evil.

Tau: I think these guys are the least evil. They offer the chance to ally with other races, not just kill anything thats different. We would only view them as evil because they are different and we find it frightening, its programmed into our minds.

Meriwether
09-02-2008, 01:27
I think we were talking about Necrons here?

And tyranids, yeah.


No, truth is filtered by the viewer's world view. I am not sure how to exactly say what I want to to make you understand. I'm pretty sure you get my point though. You seem educated enough.

Here's the thing... I understand what you are trying to say -- I've heard it many, many times before. What I am trying to get you to understand is that you are *assuming* something to be true and then trying to argue that it is true.


Even gravity to some extent.

Please explain how my or your perceptions of gravity change the gravity itself.


That's interesting. I may have some other questions for you off list.

Fire away.


Everything is based on one's world view.

This is demonstrably false. If you were insane and didn't believe in the existence of baseball bats, even to the extent that your brain refused to acknowledge that one was there, I could still beat you to death with one.


Here's a simple one for you then. Is it cold in Canada at this time of year?

This is a straw man. You are either deliberately or unintentionally confusing subjectivity with relativism.


Whether it's unfounded or not it's true, or are you saying it's not true for you?

No, I'm saying it's not true at all. It's not true for me. It's not true for you. It's not true for the universe as a whole. I've said this several times. Your response amounts to 'yeah, it is', but without any evidence to back it up.

I have at the very least shown that absolutism is more consistent than relativism, because relativism is self-refuting. (If meaning is relative, it is meaningless. This is a truly inescapable conclusion of 'relative truth'. The only time you _don't_ reach that conclusion is if you don't follow the path far enough. Absolutism does not suffer from this problem, and thus while I cannot prove it is true, I can prove it is more likely than relativism. Thus, while we're both starting from different assumptions, logic is on my side. :D )

Meri

Angelus Mortis
09-02-2008, 02:13
This is demonstrably false. If you were insane and didn't believe in the existence of baseball bats, even to the extent that your brain refused to acknowledge that one was there, I could still beat you to death with one.


Well said. Its sort of ironic. You know, like saying "there are no absolutes" when in fact that very statement is an absolute statement. Just ironic. :wtf::D

Ddraiglais
09-02-2008, 04:25
Here's the thing... I understand what you are trying to say -- I've heard it many, many times before. What I am trying to get you to understand is that you are *assuming* something to be true and then trying to argue that it is true.

How is it assuming when I see it with my own two eyes? I'm pretty sure everybody has seen it/esperienced it.


Please explain how my or your perceptions of gravity change the gravity itself.

Perhaps I should have said your perception of the effects of gravity. Take for example in the weight room. I've seen people who knew that the max the could lift was X amount of pounds. They couldn't lift anymore to save their life. Then I've seen them lied to and lift quite a few more. Their perception changed, and they could lift it.


Fire away.

I will.


This is demonstrably false. If you were insane and didn't believe in the existence of baseball bats, even to the extent that your brain refused to acknowledge that one was there, I could still beat you to death with one.

Now my question is would I feel the bat hitting me. If I was so convinced that there was no bat, then I may not feel any pain. The human brain has a wonderful capacity to be able to fool itself.


This is a straw man. You are either deliberately or unintentionally confusing subjectivity with relativism.

Back to the philosophy I see. :p


No, I'm saying it's not true at all. It's not true for me. It's not true for you. It's not true for the universe as a whole. I've said this several times. Your response amounts to 'yeah, it is', but without any evidence to back it up.

What evidence have you used? You've used logic, which a BS way to try and argue anything. Logic attacks the process of the argument and not the argument.


I have at the very least shown that absolutism is more consistent than relativism, because relativism is self-refuting. (If meaning is relative, it is meaningless. This is a truly inescapable conclusion of 'relative truth'. The only time you _don't_ reach that conclusion is if you don't follow the path far enough. Absolutism does not suffer from this problem, and thus while I cannot prove it is true, I can prove it is more likely than relativism. Thus, while we're both starting from different assumptions, logic is on my side. :D )

Meri

So some crackpot pseudo-science is the end all be all? At one time I took philosophy and logic. I thought they were silly back then. You can win any argument using them and not saying a thing about what's at hand. They sound clever, but don't really deal with reality. You could prove/disprove almost anything you'd like if you thought about it hard enough.

Emperor's Avenger
09-02-2008, 10:35
But the Imperium of Man isn't harsh for the sake of it. They are locked in a struggle to survive.

El_Phen
09-02-2008, 11:43
I thought everyone KNEW that Tau are the most evil things in the universe? No army could possibly beat me so often without it being anything other than a sadistic pleasure!

Oh, and Orks are the gooderest because, to quote Kermit, 'It's not easy being green.'

Deathwing_Learn
09-02-2008, 12:30
1)Necron's(ctan)- They want to destroy all life just for S***s and giggles
2)Nids-Kill everything
3)Dark Eldar-Kill stuff to prevent themselves from dying
4)Orks-Kill and fighting is what they are made for.
5)Imperium-Kill anything that does not fit into set guidelines.
6)Eldar-Only kill when they have to.
7)Tau-"for the greater good" says it all

False Fable
09-02-2008, 13:14
This thread misses the point.

No one is good in 40K. It was deliberately set up that way to establish the "Grim Darkness" of the setting, and to allow any army to fight any other army - even two of the same race/type.

chosen of chaos
09-02-2008, 13:28
chaos are the evilest becasue they come from the chaos gods who were made from pure evil

Meriwether
09-02-2008, 13:42
Well said. Its sort of ironic. You know, like saying "there are no absolutes" when in fact that very statement is an absolute statement. Just ironic.

That is the ultimate irony of relativism, yes. :D


How is it assuming when I see it with my own two eyes? I'm pretty sure everybody has seen it/esperienced it.

Everyone has seen/experienced moral relativism? I don't even know what that statement means.


Perhaps I should have said your perception of the effects of gravity.

Ok, but now you're back to the assumption that perception defines reality, which I have already rejected.


Now my question is would I feel the bat hitting me.

How entirely irrelevant. You'd still have died from me beating you to death with a bat. Thus, your perception did not influence what really happened.


What evidence have you used? You've used logic, which a BS way to try and argue anything. Logic attacks the process of the argument and not the argument.

I addressed this a bit in PM, but to rehash slightly for anyone who might be interested:

Logic is the only way to argue anything. Without it, you can draw no conclusions. This does not mean that the use of good logic guarantees good conclusions. To whit, if the assumptions from which you start are false, your conclusions may very well be false as well. That is the crux of what I'm saying, here.

Relativism is an assumption. Absolutism is also an assumption. Relativism is a self-contradictory assumption (thank you, Angelus Mortis) that leads to nihilism, whereas Absolutism is a self-consistent assumption that does not.

(Note that I have asserted, but not argued, that relativism leads inescapably to nihilism. It's a long path to follow, but when you get to the end you say 'holy crap! aaaaaaaaah!' as you fall into the abyss, or you get yourself a nice absolutist jetpack and escape.)


No one is good in 40K.

I'm with ya.

Meri

TheOverlord
09-02-2008, 16:48
Here's a short version of my list.

-C'tan/Chaos= Both are about equally as bad, really. They just enjoy killing for the sake of killing, one to ingest living essence and the other spiritual essence. And Chaos worshippers are NOT free. They are ANYTHING but free. When you fall into the grips of chaos, there is but 3 fates for you. Death, Spawndom, or Daemonhood. There is no freedom, only multiple choices. You don't run from it, you can't say No, I don't want to worship the Gods anymore, you can't be nice because the already have your soul. Displease them, and there are fates worse than death awaiting you in the ether realms of the warp. All who worship chaos, incidental, willingly or otherwise, can never run away from the Gods of Chaos. They are just that badass.

Dark Eldar/Eldar/Imperium of Man = Honestly? I hate eldar. Bunch of arrogant, self serving prissy drugged up pansies too interested in preserving their own skin simply because it's too pretty to mess up. I rate them the same as both the DE and the Imperium of Man simply because they are just as evil as you and I, or the men and women of the 41st millennium. They are selfish, arrogant, and would rather see a million humans die just to save their hair from being damaged by harsh sea winds, just like the men and women of the 41st millennium. The only reason they stick to the Paths is for survival's sake, hoping to ward off the hunger of Slaanesh long enough for them to create a God for themselves to free and hopefully restore their kind back to dominance, which would most likely wipe out every other race from the face of the universe just so they can go back to indulging their every whim like the DE. They're out for the same goals as Mankind, they just do it more sneakily. They want to rule as they did, screw everyone else, they aren't worth the rock they sit on kind of mentality makes them just as bad as the other 2, and if they have to string the other races along like puppets on a string, then so be it. Bah.

Tyranids/Orks = They fight on instinct, but then again, just cause you're a jerk, and think you're actually cool for being a jerk, doesn't make you a cool guy or a nice one. You're just a jerk.

Tau = I... wouldn't exactly call them good, they're just... slightly less evil than the other races. And it makes my skin shudder just to type that out into digital format. They are considerably more tolerant of other races, and honestly, join us or die, is a lot more diplomatic and humane than you don't look like us, now you die (Imperium) They rank least evil of them all, but still they aren't the perfect society either.

Supremearchmarshal
09-02-2008, 17:05
-C'tan/Chaos= Both are about equally as bad, really. They just enjoy killing for the sake of killing, one to ingest living essence and the other spiritual essence. And Chaos worshippers are NOT free. They are ANYTHING but free. When you fall into the grips of chaos, there is but 3 fates for you. Death, Spawndom, or Daemonhood. There is no freedom, only multiple choices. You don't run from it, you can't say No, I don't want to worship the Gods anymore, you can't be nice because the already have your soul. Displease them, and there are fates worse than death awaiting you in the ether realms of the warp. All who worship chaos, incidental, willingly or otherwise, can never run away from the Gods of Chaos. They are just that badass.

But the Chaos gods are only a reflection of the galaxy's inhabitants. Considering what they think of each other, it's no wonder the Chaos gods are bloodthirsty and sadistic! Chaos on its own is neither good nor evil, though.

TheOverlord
09-02-2008, 17:19
Very true, ONCE upon a time, Chaos in by itself was neither good nor evil. It was a tranquil sea of energy blissfully unaware of it's potential. The War in Heaven changed that, however, and the dark thoughts of psychically endowed creatures brought turmoil and disruption, twisted creatures and boiling rage spilled into the Warp and created Khorne, the first God of Chaos. The 4 great Gods are really just that, the reflection of the most base, the most cruel, the most powerful emotions of all the sentient races of the Universe. This makes them evil, distilled. Chaos was once defined by it's existence, now it is defined by the masters that rule it.

So every evil, every malice, every hatred, fear, avarice, ambition, every vice that you can think of makes up the very fabric of what the Warp is currently, what powers and drives the Godhood of the 4 great powers that reside behind that sea of endless turmoil and change. If that isn't the most evil, I don't know what is.

Supremearchmarshal
10-02-2008, 00:15
Yes, though remember that "positive" emotions are also fueled into the warp, and even the 4 main Chaos gods have some aspects that could be defined as "good" - Tzeentch is the god of hope, for example. And of course those are the four major gods - there are many others, as well as other independent Warp entities. And doesn't the Emperor in fact draw his own psychic power from the Warp?

Hrogoff the Destructor
10-02-2008, 00:40
1. Dark Eldar, just because Chaos is too broad. I would say Slaanesh is more evil. Dark Eldar's torture is physical and mental to the highest degree. Slaanesh's is physical, mental, and sexual to damn near the highest degree (assuming its not the highest degree). Not to mention, god knows what strange Slaaneshy experients they would do to you. Plus eternal torture to your soul as well.
2. Chaos.
3. Necrons.
4. Imperial Guard. Your life is worthless.
5. Eldar. They use everyone to their advantage. Get billions of others killed, just to save twenty of their own.
6. Space Marines. Everyone is a heretic. Everyone is a mutant. 'cept our legion of course!
7. Tau.

HsojVvad
10-02-2008, 00:49
Are Tyranids evil? Just because they devour everyting? Isn't that to survive? Why is it evil?

What about Lions as someone else mentioned, are they evil? They can't be talked to, make peace pacts with, they hunt to survive as well.

The most evil would be humans, since we all do atrocities, and espically atrocities to our own race. Espically the 40K Imperium. You have to worship the God Emperor and the Inquistors have destroyed total plantest just because of one "evil being" on the planet they can't get. Even the Emperor has destroyed planets because they didn't want to do is will, so they are worse than the Tau.

Actually all the evil that everyone is talking about here has been done by humans so we are the most EVIL of them all.

Lame Duck
10-02-2008, 21:55
One fun way too look at it would be each race as a primary school kid.

Orks: The bully who laughs as he beats people up.

Necrons: Instead of eating school lunches they steal candy from babies in the nursery.

Imperium: Walks around brazenly screaming 'Stay the ******* away from me' as loud as they can.

Dark eldar: Gleefully slicing up bugs in the coner of the room, and trying to look up the teacher's skirt.

Tyranids: Fat kid who steals everyone's food.

Tau: Desperately trying to be popular, he kicks anyone who doesn't like him in the nuts.

Eldar: Causes fights by shooting spitballs from a distance, then disappears to the bathroom.

Choas: Brings in a bag of poo for show and tell, before shoving it down the nearest kid's throat.


Great way to look at it, don't you think?

Frep
10-02-2008, 22:12
So are squats the kid nobody liked, and they teased untill he moved away to live with his Auntie out west?

Captain Micha
10-02-2008, 23:19
Most evil
1. Chaos (notice how I said Chaos and not their spikey soldier boy marines because this is -all- chaos)
2. Dark Eldar
3. Necrons
4. Tyranid
5. Imperium
6. Tau (they aren't above exterminating entire races that don't join the empire, and they mind controlled the vespid.. nuff said. stop saying they are not evil... sheesh get over yourself)
7. Eldar
8. Orks. They fight because they like it and nothing more. Fighting is life for them.

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-02-2008, 03:54
One fun way too look at it would be each race as a primary school kid.

Orks: The bully who laughs as he beats people up.

Necrons: Instead of eating school lunches they steal candy from babies in the nursery.

Imperium: Walks around brazenly screaming 'Stay the ******* away from me' as loud as they can.

Dark eldar: Gleefully slicing up bugs in the coner of the room, and trying to look up the teacher's skirt.

Tyranids: Fat kid who steals everyone's food.

Tau: Desperately trying to be popular, he kicks anyone who doesn't like him in the nuts.

Eldar: Causes fights by shooting spitballs from a distance, then disappears to the bathroom.

Choas: Brings in a bag of poo for show and tell, before shoving it down the nearest kid's throat.


Great way to look at it, don't you think?

This post has been quoth for purity of knowledge.

Son of Russ
11-02-2008, 05:20
Good: Imperium of Humanity.

Evil: Everybody else.

It's easy. I don't know what the problem is, I really don't.

No no no. It goes as such:

Good: Space Wolves.

Neutral: Imperium of Humanity.

Evil: Everybody else.

Son of Russ
11-02-2008, 05:24
Good: Imperium of Humanity.

Evil: Everybody else.

It's easy. I don't know what the problem is, I really don't.

No no no. It goes as such:

Good: Space Wolves.

Neutral: Imperium of Humanity.


Evil: Everybody else.

Blitz 7
11-02-2008, 13:52
I know it may be unpopular but the only none evil army is Chaos, they are just trying to worship in their own way....is that so bad.

TheOverlord
11-02-2008, 14:28
Well... yes. It is that bad. Just because it is the only way to worship your God/s, doesn't make it right. If your religion tells you you must murder and run genocide on an indigenous people, doesn't make it right or even moral. The same argument I made with the jerk. Just cause you've always acted that way, or because your friends act that way, doesn't make it right. You're still just a jerk.

And that's exactly why I love chaos. It's not about excusing ourself for what we do. We PRIDE ourselves in our hatred and merciless slaughter. We LIKE being bad. On the tabletop and in fluff, of course.

Meriwether
12-02-2008, 20:31
Well... yes. It is that bad.

If all religions are not equally valid (that is, relativism is crap), then what you believe (and/or choose to worship) has no bearing on what is or is not actually good.

I think we can make a compelling argument that the Chaos powers are 'bad'...

Meri

Torga_DW
12-02-2008, 20:35
heres my ranking, from most evil (1) to least (3):

1 - chaos marines, necrons and dark elder
2 - imperium, elder, tau
3 - orks, tyranids

did i forget anyone?

Ekranoplan
12-02-2008, 21:55
When people talk about the Imperium, they always seem to forget the nature of their foes. To a human, the power of Chaos and the Warp is the ultimate horror in the universe. If you or I were to get just a glimpse of some of that knowledge and power it would deeply disturb us and drive some of mad. It would send many to their suicide, or a world of endless torture.

If humanity was allowed to fully embrace their psychic potential, you would have thousands toying with power they cant compredhend, getting possesed or killed, and ultimatly being doomed to an enternal nightmare of being feated up by deamons in the Warp!

If they were allowed to go off and think about the Warp, the myriad powers, choose whatever religion they chose, and et cetera, they would eventually all be ensnared by the forces of chaos that seek out such an oppurtunity.

Its just like Cthullhu. It is unnatural, your eyes will see the truth of it, but your mind will try to deny it all.

Short of using the power of the Warp and Chaos, anything to stop such a fate befalling humanity if justified. Not one of use can imagine the horrific nature of chaos, for if we could we would not be sane.

Meriwether
13-02-2008, 15:58
When people talk about the Imperium, they always seem to forget the nature of their foes.

I think we all know that the Imperium was deliberately set up as an Orwellian-Police-State-meets-Fascist-Dictatorship dystopia, with 'justifiable' actions for it doing what it does thrown in for sheer moral ambiguity.

Meri

Darkoth
13-02-2008, 16:11
chaos most evil Imo

Keichi246
13-02-2008, 17:15
Most evil
- snip -
6. Tau (they aren't above exterminating entire races that don't join the empire, and they mind controlled the vespid.. nuff said. stop saying they are not evil... sheesh get over yourself)

Only one documented case of exterminatus done by the Tau, as far as I've been able to find. The Reek - a race that was totally unwilling to negotiate - and not a good candidate for conquering. BTW - fluffwise, the Imperials have ALSO done Exterminatus against the Reek. I have not found any fluff indicating that the Tau have Exterminated any races - just one case where they wiped the planet clean.

Actually - the little bit of fluff about the Vespid Communion Helms has always been inconclusive. For some reason - I find it REALLY difficult to believe that anyone can come up with a "mind control" device without having at least SOME basis of communication - to understand how the target thinks to begin with... Rememeber -the fluff indicates that there was NO effective communication between the races until the first Communion Helms were built.

To me - I think of it more as a case of "enlightened self interest".

Put yourself in the Vespid's shoes... err... wings.

The information on the Vespid pretty much seems to indicate that the Vespid homeworld was a bit of a hole. It has a shallow biosphere - meaning that poor resources will determine relatively low population due to limited usable terrain, etc. Your families/clans etc are forced to scrabble for existence on a world that is not particulalry hospitable.

Then some aliens show up. At first, you can't communicate AT ALL due to physiological differences. Neither side can effectively communicate with the other. Then one of the alien scientists comes up with a device that DOES allow communication and understanding.

When you put it on - you discover...
1) The aliens are part of a large multi-world empire with resources beyond your wildest imagining.
2) Their core "religion" is that all members of a society work to benefit the society more than individual (not unlike a Hive - no?)
3) their society's core structure has different "castes" of people, with different phenotypes. Workers (Earth caste), Warrirors (Fire), and leader caste (Ethereals.) This is NOT dissimilar to the stucture of your own society at all.
4) If you are willing to join their Empire - they will give YOUR clan/family/race access to the resources of the Empire; ending the hardship of generations.

When you look at it that way - is there REALLY any surprise that the Vespid leaders went "Where do we sign?" They are NOT that far apart culturally and they get good benefits from signing. Seems like a decent match to me.

It's a Win/Win for both sides. Tau get another client race for their Empire for the cost of the development of the Communion Helm; and the Vespid gain access to stuff they never could have done on their own. Through such deals are great friends made. Enlightened Self interest.

I really see the Tau as "pragmatists" at heart. They know that to survive at the Galactic level - they have to expand and gain allies. They need to expand in as "cheap" a way as possible. Trade and negotiations are cheaper than warfare, so those tactics are used first. But when push comes to shove and negotiations fail; they know that violence is sometimes the answer. Even at that point, they try to use the minimum force that will resolve the situation, because messy wars get expensive.

Captain Micha
13-02-2008, 22:16
Well the Tau would certainly have obliterated the Orks off the map if they could. As they would the nids. (not that those are bad things mind...) However that makes the Tau far from the 'least evil race"

Meriwether
13-02-2008, 23:54
Only one documented case of exterminatus done by the Tau, as far as I've been able to find.

Replace "Tau" with Nazis and then tell us all how only once case of exterminatus makes a group less bad?

Meri

Captain Micha
14-02-2008, 00:22
some would argue that the Imperium is even worse than the Nazis. I don't think so, it could not function or exist if it were. *L*

Meriwether
14-02-2008, 01:51
some would argue that the Imperium is even worse than the Nazis. I don't think so, it could not function or exist if it were. *L*

Certainly, but I was talking about the Tau, not the Imperium... Thus, the Imperium in this case is a straw man.

Meri

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-02-2008, 04:35
Mmm, Nazi talk. Godwin's Law invoked!

You know what the least evil race is? The Squats. Poor bastards. :(

Meriwether
14-02-2008, 12:21
Hard to be evil when dead, eh?

The_Outsider
14-02-2008, 12:36
Hard to be evil when dead, eh?

Necrons disagree.

IMO there is no way one can classify any race more evil than the others (cept for tau - they are at the bootom) as theyshould all be judged by their own society to determine it.

A dark eldar would be evil to a human considering what they do - but to another DE its just how they survive.

Its mostly that tau are about the only race (that have free will - which kinda excludes the nids and most of the necrons) that don't actively try to take on the galaxy as a single person - they want glory for the tau empire - not glory for Shas o whateverthehell and see glory for the empire as an extension of that.

Shadowseer Crofty
14-02-2008, 13:20
Not read the whole thread, so sorry if this has been said


I'm almost tempted to argue the craftworlders are more evil, getting their warriors to focus upon their path, trap their souls in shiny gems and to try and cut off their emotions....

Thats not evil at all. Eldar choose their path, may take different routes along that path and change these whenever they wish (such as moving from Dire Avenger shrine to Swooping Hawk shrine), and when they feel they have achieved their full potential on that path, will change to another. They can, if they wish, choose to leave the Path and become outcasts, and unless they become outcasts as punishment they may return to the craftworld and the path whenever they wish. They don't try to cut off their emotions, they just keep them under control, by focusing the mind on the one path. And trapping their souls in tiny gems (and later releasing them into the infinity circuit) is a sight better than the alternative.

Meriwether
14-02-2008, 14:36
Necrons disagree.

LOL. I _knew_ someone was going to say that.


IMO there is no way one can classify any race more evil than the others (cept for tau - they are at the bootom) as theyshould all be judged by their own society to determine it.

Ok... and in this thread I've already rejected this starting point (relativism) as an unsound basis from which to begin a classification of evil vs. not for 40K races. :P


A dark eldar would be evil to a human considering what they do - but to another DE its just how they survive.

And yet again I ask, "How does what one considers/believes to be true affect what is true?"

Semi-concisely:

A. I have stated (without proof) that relativism leads directly to nihilism, where one can say nothing about anything, truth has no meaning, and conversations such as this one are meaningless. (Nihilism is very easy to refute, because "there are no absolutes" is an absolute.)

B. I've already demonstrated (via the deadly baseball bat) that it is possible to believe something false, and yet still be affected by that true something. Therefore, perception and belief do not define reality. If reality is somehow external to belief and perception, then relativism is false.

Expanding a litte:
Some might object to my using physical phenomena (such as the existence of baseball bats, or gravity, or whatnot) to debunk relativism, and then apply it to non-physical phenomena (such as good and evil). But the physical/non-physical delineation is a false dichotomy -- the real set would be "true" things. If relativism can define truth, then it can define both physical and non-physical truths (and we already know that one cannot believe baseball bats wielded by irate and homicidal Meris out of existence). If relativism cannot define truth, then it is every bit as incapable of defining non-physical truths (such as morality) as it is physical truths (such as the existence of deadly baseball bats).

Meri

The_Outsider
14-02-2008, 15:00
LOL. I _knew_ someone was going to say that.

At least it was one of their masters.




Lots of long in depth words

However, can you say either with relativism or not,what is "true" evil?

Even without having the baseline relative to each race how evil can one be before you can go no further? Its one thing to say "I'm fond of children" and another to say "I reenact the excorcist on my 12 year old sister" but how far can that go?

What is and is not evil cannot be defind at all really - how many people have ever seen "true" (as far as this undefined term goes) evil?

Is genocide as far as you can go? deicide? or something far more cunning?

Meriwether
14-02-2008, 15:30
However, can you say either with relativism or not,what is "true" evil?

Can _I_? No. At the best, I can make some reasonable guesses based on reasonable assumptions -- I do not pretend to have all the answers. I consider myself wiser than many because I at least seem to have more of the questions...

That said, what _I_ personally think, believe, can articulate, or can identify has no bearing on what is or is not actually true.


What is and is not evil cannot be defind at all really - how many people have ever seen "true" (as far as this undefined term goes) evil?

The first part of this argument is false, and the second is a straw man. There is a difference between something being true and something being definitely knowable.

Meri

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-02-2008, 20:45
However, can you say either with relativism or not,what is "true" evil?

Gen. Steiner has been over this point, I think. True evil is what opposes the divine right of Mankind to rule the galaxy and purge the lesser races.

But in an out-of-universe context, I suppose this question really comes down to what the individual believes is more evil- unless we have a common definition of evil (which, with all the relativists, absolutists, and... Meriwethers* around, is impossible).

But this has been done before, and I can't say I've studied philosophy and such enough to properly address some of the deeper points in this thread.

*No offense intended, you just seem to be in a category of your own.

Keichi246
14-02-2008, 21:50
Replace "Tau" with Nazis and then tell us all how only once case of exterminatus makes a group less bad?

Meri

Well - as far as I know - the Tau didn't *try* to take out the entire race - just a planet.

It's the EXACT same justification as using a nuclear weapon on an inhabited city - on a larger scale. Military target + weapon that will end the fighting with as few casualties as possible. Without more informaiton on the situation (other than a throwaway sentence) it's impossible to tell if it really wsa a requirement or not.

Meriwether - we obviously don't agree on the nature of good and evil.
I can and do believe that evil is relative. That certain actions can be "more evil" than others, based on the situation when the action occured. It goes back to my argument about how a situation goes a long way towards determining if an action is "evil" or just distasteful.

You obviously disagree. From what I can gather - your point seems to be:
"you can't have moral relativism because it (somehow) eventually leads to nihilism - which is bad. There's got to be absolute rules - but I can't really say what they could possibly be."

To me - that can lead to nihilism just as quickly (if there is an absolute rule, but it is unknowable due to the non-absolute nature of human intellect - then why try?) I just think that the number of permutations of the absolute are so high that it is *effectively* relative.

I don't NEED to know that exact level of an "evil" action - my "relative" moral scale seems to work good enough most of the time.

I agree with Imperialis_Dominatus (gasp!) = I think that without definitions of good and evil - we're spinning our wheels. And since no one can seem to agree on that....

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-02-2008, 21:59
If we can't agree on a definition of evil, then we should just judge it by our own beliefs, if we have them. I believe relativism is relavant to a point, myself. For example, if you kill someone when they're trying to kill you, that's fine. But if you kill someone because you've allowed yourself to fall to (say) religious fanaticism, that doesn't excuse you all that well when the Big G calls your name on Judgement Day. But that's my Christianity-influenced opinion, and there's all sorts of shades of grey between those two examples that I would feel hard pressed to answer.

What I'm saying is that since we aren't going to agree on what is evil and what is not (ref. many people here probably disagreeing with me, for example), this thread is probably just going to turn into a soapbox for what other people believe is evil, or rather what they don't think evil is. As well it should be; this is Warseer, right? :angel:

The_Outsider
14-02-2008, 22:27
TBH this thread is all mostly devil's advocate.

People have been trying to define things liek true evil as long as they have the meaning of life.

Meriwether
15-02-2008, 02:17
*No offense intended, you just seem to be in a category of your own.

No offense taken! I take it as a compliment that I cannot be so blithely pidgeonholed.... That said, I'm most certainly an absolutist.


That certain actions can be "more evil" than others, based on the situation when the action occured.

It goes back to my argument about how a situation goes a long way towards determining if an action is "evil" or just distasteful.

I agree... That's not contrary to what absolute morality means...


You obviously disagree.

I don't disagree with the points you just made. Contextualism is different than relativism, and I have no pressing disagreements with contextualism.

Absolutism doesn't mean saying pithy and trite things like "killing is always wrong". Any and every given act must take into account the circumstances under which that act occurred.


From what I can gather - your point seems to be:
"you can't have moral relativism because it (somehow) eventually leads to nihilism - which is bad. There's got to be absolute rules - but I can't really say what they could possibly be."

LOL. Not quite, but I'll let it go.


To me - that can lead to nihilism just as quickly (if there is an absolute rule, but it is unknowable due to the non-absolute nature of human intellect - then why try?)

"Then why try?" is assuming nihilism before we've begun. We might not be able to know what is 'good' in every situation, and therefore might be stuck with trying our best. That's a very far cry from not even bothering to try.


I don't NEED to know that exact level of an "evil" action - my "relative" moral scale seems to work good enough most of the time.

This quote makes me think you misunderstand the term 'relative morality'. Absolute morality doesn't presume that all acts are either (a) totally good or (b) totally, basely eeeeeeeeeevil. There can certainly be gradations of good/evil in an absolute framework.


If we can't agree on a definition of evil, then we should just judge it by our own beliefs, if we have them. I believe relativism is relavant to a point, myself. For example, if you kill someone when they're trying to kill you, that's fine. But if you kill someone because you've allowed yourself to fall to (say) religious fanaticism, that doesn't excuse you all that well when the Big G calls your name on Judgement Day.

I think you might be misusing/misunderstanding some terms, here. There is nothing in the statement above that conflicts with the idea of absolute morality. However there _is_ something in your statement that conflicts with relative morality -- the idea that the fanatic did anything 'wrong', because from his (relative) point of view he did not.


People have been trying to define things liek true evil as long as they have the meaning of life.

True. ...and what an interesting exercise it is!

For the record, though, I'm not trying to be the devil's advocate for it's own sake. For what it's worth, I'm trying to educate.... (The teacher in me just can't let a 'teachable moment' go, I guess.)

Meri

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 02:25
No offense taken! I take it as a compliment that I cannot be so blithely pidgeonholed.... That said, I'm most certainly an absolutist.

Sweet then.


I think you might be misusing/misunderstanding some terms, here. There is nothing in the statement above that conflicts with the idea of absolute morality. However there _is_ something in your statement that conflicts with relative morality -- the idea that the fanatic did anything 'wrong', because from his (relative) point of view he did not.

Well, maybe I was misusing terms then. I suppose I should have used the word 'contextualism.' Just because someone's relative point of view doesn't see something as evil doesn't mean my somewhat-absolutist view won't see it that way- it's my nature to assume my view is right, what can I say?

I haven't really studied this, though. ;)

Meriwether
15-02-2008, 16:12
Well, maybe I was misusing terms then. I suppose I should have used the word 'contextualism.' Just because someone's relative point of view doesn't see something as evil doesn't mean my somewhat-absolutist view won't see it that way- it's my nature to assume my view is right, what can I say?

It sounds like we might not actually disagree, then... But "my absolutist view" is an oxymoron. :)


I haven't really studied this, though. ;)

Most people haven't. That's why when I see people throwing relativism around as if it is the inevitable conclusion, I have to whack the bee hive a little.

Meri

Plastic Parody
15-02-2008, 18:50
8- Tau- The true goodies, they plan on uniting the galaxy. They are most like modern man, with arts and civilisation IMHO. They dont necessarily want to kill, and will allo people to join their empire. They dont base a race by its leaders (leading to auxillaries) and help other races with equipment (if they join). Only race id call nice. The point of contention in the 40k universe is that people join THEIR empire, not the other way around, they still want to be in charge and control, probably so they can decide not to kill everything else

Thats a fairly reasonable list...


Id call the Tau lazy bad guys rather than good.

They want to expand their empire so rather than elimating everyone they ask them to join up first to save them the trouble of conquering. If the target resists its only then they get nasty.

As for the rest, using the excuse 'they were born that way' nearly made me p%$s myself laughing. SO true yet so funny.

Sinner098
15-02-2008, 21:59
Lets see, my list of most evil...

1-Necron-C'Tan-You taste good
2-Dark Eladr-We are going to torture you to hide/survive, but we still like it
3-Imperium-xenophobic to the extreme
4-Eldar-mostly just for survival but some stupid we once lived here so now it ours forever
5-Tau-join us, or we will make you join us(Eldar and Tau could be changed)
6-Ork-they live just for fun, it just so happens their definition of fun includes bashing your face in
7-Choas-they are literally just reflections of the humans and Eldar, if the humans and Eldar weren't bad Chaos wouldn't be bad
8-Tyranids-animals that is all

thebaz
15-02-2008, 23:45
According to the Horus Heresy books the Chaos gods just wanted to coexist in the universe but it was the Emperor who tried to destroy them. Now I would take this as a whole lot of grains of salt because the chaos gods decieve to get whatever they want