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Krootman
06-02-2008, 23:36
So I was talking to my buddy today about when wood elfs vs dwarfs and how hard it is when they castle and you will only be able to charge with one unit so I was thinking to myself what is a good hammer unit you guys use.

I was thinking a duel charge with and alter noble and a unit of wildriders with a warbanner.

txamil
06-02-2008, 23:53
Every unit is a hammer in WE army. That's kinda the problem. No decent Anvil.

northwoodDreamer
07-02-2008, 00:31
Every unit is a hammer in WE army. That's kinda the problem. No decent Anvil.

True enough. I plan on mainly using Wardancers and an Alter Noble as my hammers.

Krootman
07-02-2008, 00:42
yea I need one that can break threw a block dwarf unit by itself :/

northwoodDreamer
07-02-2008, 01:10
yea I need one that can break threw a block dwarf unit by itself :/


Wardancers using the +1 attack dance or Tree Kin. It all depends on the Dwarf infantry... if it's Iron Breakers you really don't have that good of a chance with anything. Anything else Tree Kin should be able to handle, ditto Wardancers.

Highborn
07-02-2008, 01:45
So I was talking to my buddy today about when wood elfs vs dwarfs and how hard it is when they castle and you will only be able to charge with one unit so I was thinking to myself what is a good hammer unit you guys use.


Not much in the Wood Elf army can take on a fully ranked unit of dwarfs to the front. Wild Riders don't cut it because they don't have enough raw attacks. I'd send in a unit of wardancers (size is irrelevant as long as it's more than 6) with command and a wardancer hero, all using the additional attacks dance. 5 S5 and 19 S4 attacks, hitting on 3, will help to keep him honest.

Mind you, with dwarf shooting, it's easier said than done.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
07-02-2008, 02:13
A single unit of w/e being able to break dwarfs is unlikely. The best way to beat dwarfs with wood elves is to out manipulate them. Flanking and such would do the trick.... Lord on dragon?

Lyonator
07-02-2008, 02:34
Most any WE combat unit + flank charge by something that negates ranks = good shot.

you're not likely to go toe to toe with dwarves without some CR 'trickery.'

kroq'gar
07-02-2008, 02:50
oathstone...

use your mobility and magical dominance to throw trees around him (mv six in woods can take them out of a game).

Another trick i use, although not with woodelves, is to flank a unit so it sets its oathstone. Lose combat, flee, then ignore the unit for the rest of the game bar the occasional magical pop-shot.

Finnigan2004
07-02-2008, 04:47
Well, if the git shows up with a pair of treemen and a battle standard to surf across the field at me, I personally prefer a sledge hammer. Yes and actual sledge hammer to crunch the offending models. I find a ball peen hammer is o.k., but takes way more time... Oh, er, read the original post and I see what you meant.

No, seriously, I am not a wood elf expert by any means; but I think that the key would be using whichever units you select (and most wood elf units seem pretty nifty) to create mismatches. Don't fight his units fair because full frontal combat is something dwarfs do best. Use your mobility and cover (maybe tree surf) to get across the table unscathed and pick off his units one by one with multiples of your own units. Depending on how much shooting he has and the terrain involved, I might be a little concerned about the alter noble because he has to do his work alone and can get sniped.

If you take a high level mage, the lore of life might be worth looking at against dwarves when they huddle up on a hill with a forest nearby. Every spell in the lore would be great, except maybe the default if you are facing someone who is castling up anyhow. This really depends on the opponent and what he fields though.

Krootman
07-02-2008, 05:05
thanks for all the comments guys, the only prob is if the dwarf player is towering it's really hard to get a flank charge off, unit of wardancers with a wardance nobel or charging with an alterkin seems my best bet imo.

Your Mum Rang
07-02-2008, 14:41
yea I need one that can break threw a block dwarf unit by itself :/

Your problem is that you are asking the Asrai army to do something it isn't meant to do. It's like asking an O&G army to outshoot someone. Wood Elves are avout subtlety and ganging up on the enemy, not big hammer units. There ARE no hammer units in a WE army.

Krootman
07-02-2008, 14:59
Your problem is that you are asking the Asrai army to do something it isn't meant to do. It's like asking an O&G army to outshoot someone. Wood Elves are avout subtlety and ganging up on the enemy, not big hammer units. There ARE no hammer units in a WE army.

tell that to the dwarf castle player hahahaha

Idk i think it might be possible with some luck

lector#1
07-02-2008, 15:09
easiest way is lord on dragon with helm of the hunt spear of twilight and stone of crystal mere very hard to kill dragon lord.... but if dragon isnt your thing have a unit of wild riders frontal charge and have a unit of wardancers with wardancer highborn in it to flank that will mess up those little fat drunks dudes

Krootman
07-02-2008, 15:16
easiest way is lord on dragon with helm of the hunt spear of twilight and stone of crystal mere very hard to kill dragon lord.... but if dragon isnt your thing have a unit of wild riders frontal charge and have a unit of wardancers with wardancer highborn in it to flank that will mess up those little fat drunks dudes
well I can only get in on the front so how about a dragon highborn with a small unit of wardancers?

Jack of Blades
07-02-2008, 15:35
What does the Spear of Twilight do again? I remember it made you harder to hit in some way (love such effects... :)), but how?

Da Black Gobbo
07-02-2008, 16:06
WE are the fastest army in WH, so playing against dwarves you should be able to outmanuber them with ease, try to charge with 3 units at the same one and win this combat to get into another, i mean a 2 flank charge and a frontal one with harl...wardancers Three man or Wildriders, that should work. If your enemy plays gunline 2 units of waywatchers will kill his units dead and a Noble with some wildriders and the Moonstone of the hiden ways should take you in CC fast.

Krootman
07-02-2008, 16:18
WE are the fastest army in WH, so playing against dwarves you should be able to outmanuber them with ease, try to charge with 3 units at the same one and win this combat to get into another, i mean a 2 flank charge and a frontal one with harl...wardancers Three man or Wildriders, that should work. If your enemy plays gunline 2 units of waywatchers will kill his units dead and a Noble with some wildriders and the Moonstone of the hiden ways should take you in CC fast.

The problem is that in a dwarf castle setup flank charges are pretty impossible so I have to figure out a way to break one unit (the weakest one in the line) with only the option of charging the front rank. Once I break threw though its game so its not hopeless.

Im thinking highborn on a dragon with a unit of wildriders or wardancers should get the job done.

Your Mum Rang
07-02-2008, 17:43
Charge with 3 units of Dryads and hope for the autobreak.

or take 40 Glade Guard, sit back, and outrange him.

Da Black Gobbo
07-02-2008, 18:21
I really doubt dwarfs can be outranged.

Copenhagan
07-02-2008, 18:37
A unit of 47 eternal guard with lord and bsb. 5+ ward 5+ armor stubborn with re roll. 8 wide by 6 deep 20 attacks first round then 28 every other round plus the attacks from the lord and hero.


I hate this unit so much.

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
07-02-2008, 18:46
Then magic the cr## out of him and tree surf him,
with extreme predjudice, EXTREME!

Malorian
07-02-2008, 19:32
I really doubt dwarfs can be outranged.

If he is 'Castling' it means he doesn't have many shooty units, and archers don't care about cannons and boltthrowers.

Target the crossbowmen first, and then the handgunners.

It works REALLY well ; )

Krootman
07-02-2008, 20:34
Charge with 3 units of Dryads and hope for the autobreak.

or take 40 Glade Guard, sit back, and outrange him.

cant get 3 units of dryads on the front ;/

As far as out ranging him if hes castleing thats a good idea but im not going to kill very many with range, maybe it will be good for softening up a unit then charging with an alterkin noble and a unit of wardancers with a wardancer noble :D

Malorian
07-02-2008, 20:37
You don't have to kill many... just enough to win ; )

Hail of doom will be your friend...

Da Black Gobbo
07-02-2008, 21:49
hail of doom is useless against heavy armored dwarves 3d6 shots average 9, 8-7 hits, 4-3 wounds against normal dwarf warriors with heavy armour and shield are 3 kills

ZeroTwentythree
07-02-2008, 21:56
hail of doom is usefull against heavy armored dwarves 3d6 shots average 9, 8-7 hits, 4-3 wounds against normal dwarf warriors with heavy armour and shield are 3 kills

You are equating "useful" to a one shot magic item that you hope will kill 3 dwarves? :eyebrows:

Malorian
07-02-2008, 22:01
Well it kills more than it's equal points in gladeguard shooting the whole game...

The bow of loren/bodkins combo is best for the tough dwarves, but as I said you leave them alone until last and work on the ones that can actually fight back.

Krootman
07-02-2008, 22:14
You are equating "useful" to a one shot magic item that you hope will kill 3 dwarves? :eyebrows:

If its 3 dwarfs crewing a wm then its worth it, granted last time I fired a hail of doom arrow at a wm I killed 1 crew member and did 2 wounds to the machine :eyebrows:

RavenBloodwind
08-02-2008, 04:24
I think that the overall message you've got from bits of all the posts thus far is what I was going to suggest in the first place.

Pick one unit as your target. Shoot the everloving hell out of it. I never show up with less than 2 10-man gladeguard. Couple them with some other fire from whatever else you bring (waywatchers, gladeriders, warhawks, hell anyone with a bow). It will take you 2 rounds to set up your desired combination charge anyway unless you go with wild riders and dragon. In 2 turns of shooting you have a fair shot to knock 2 ranks off a 5-wide formation since you only have to kill 6 guys. (Hit on 4s at long range, wound on 5s, unmodified armor saves). Try to shoot the smallest, least armored unit. Those warriors with great weapon and no shield because he was saving points, his missile troops, whomever.

So, take something fairly fast and very hitty (wardancers are great, wild riders aren't shabby, treekin are tough as nails, Mr. DragonLord is well...). Soften up the one target for 2 turns and then make that combo charge. Dwarfs are tough, but when you've knocked down their static CR they're a lot less tough. Also try to shoot and charge the unit without a banner since Murphy's law states you will invariably choose and charge the one unit with the rune-banner-from-hell that has a static CR of 8-9 with stubborn reroll or some other nightmare.

Also, plopping 4 warhawk riders down BEHIND the unit you're shooting/charging should help the equation a bit further. That handy +2CR for a rear charge? Yes please! Clearly a limited option since you don't want to land in a spot you'll be charged by the unit behind your target...

The basis of the matter is still true which is that no sensibly built single unit in the wood elf army can take a ranked up dwarf infantry unit in a straight-up, face-to-face, one-on-one fight. Now the 47 eternal guard unit? Yeah, it probably has a really good chance, but since it costs somewhere over 900 points, it damn sure ought to be able to take on any other unit. A unit of 12 treekin with champion joined by a wildrider lord on great stag could probably do the job too...

Krootman
08-02-2008, 04:45
I think that the overall message you've got from bits of all the posts thus far is what I was going to suggest in the first place.

Pick one unit as your target. Shoot the everloving hell out of it. I never show up with less than 2 10-man gladeguard. Couple them with some other fire from whatever else you bring (waywatchers, gladeriders, warhawks, hell anyone with a bow). It will take you 2 rounds to set up your desired combination charge anyway unless you go with wild riders and dragon. In 2 turns of shooting you have a fair shot to knock 2 ranks off a 5-wide formation since you only have to kill 6 guys. (Hit on 4s at long range, wound on 5s, unmodified armor saves). Try to shoot the smallest, least armored unit. Those warriors with great weapon and no shield because he was saving points, his missile troops, whomever.

So, take something fairly fast and very hitty (wardancers are great, wild riders aren't shabby, treekin are tough as nails, Mr. DragonLord is well...). Soften up the one target for 2 turns and then make that combo charge. Dwarfs are tough, but when you've knocked down their static CR they're a lot less tough. Also try to shoot and charge the unit without a banner since Murphy's law states you will invariably choose and charge the one unit with the rune-banner-from-hell that has a static CR of 8-9 with stubborn reroll or some other nightmare.

Also, plopping 4 warhawk riders down BEHIND the unit you're shooting/charging should help the equation a bit further. That handy +2CR for a rear charge? Yes please! Clearly a limited option since you don't want to land in a spot you'll be charged by the unit behind your target...

The basis of the matter is still true which is that no sensibly built single unit in the wood elf army can take a ranked up dwarf infantry unit in a straight-up, face-to-face, one-on-one fight. Now the 47 eternal guard unit? Yeah, it probably has a really good chance, but since it costs somewhere over 900 points, it damn sure ought to be able to take on any other unit. A unit of 12 treekin with champion joined by a wildrider lord on great stag could probably do the job too...

thanks for your help, the 12 treekin lord unit costs about the same as 47 eternal guard

kroq'gar
08-02-2008, 05:16
If he has any warmachines, they are your ticket in, use your wild riders to form up to the width of offending machine and charge, you'll win and he'll auto break (take that stubborn).

Also, a good hammer is an alter with helm of the hunt and a gw (6 sw 7 st 6 attacks). Alternatively try using a sprite to assasinate his unit champion and challenge his lord with an annoyance of netlings (always fun).

IronBrother
08-02-2008, 05:36
i use the "tree bomb" you need a forest spirit that can buy magic items (moonstone of hidden ways), so you need a wild rider hero or spellsinger with glamourweave on whatever mount you choose. they then join a treeman (or treekin) and teleport across the battlefield hopefully RIGHT next to his flanks. if you have call of the hunt, first turn charge with a treeman. if you don't second turn charge. it is brutal and very, very nasty. your opponent will always make a very pained expression.

Da Black Gobbo
08-02-2008, 10:57
You are equating "useful" to a one shot magic item that you hope will kill 3 dwarves?
__________________

sorry i wanted to say useless ^^! forgive me, spanish.

Your Mum Rang
08-02-2008, 12:53
Depends on the list. Longbows outrange crossbows and the Organ Gun! Warmachines such as Cannons and Bolt Throwers do negligable damage to out non-ranked units. It's certainly possible as I've seen it.

Krootman
08-02-2008, 13:19
You are equating "useful" to a one shot magic item that you hope will kill 3 dwarves?
__________________

sorry i wanted to say useless ^^! forgive me, spanish.

if you kill the crew for a wm like a organ gun its worth it.

xragg
08-02-2008, 21:52
Sounds like you need to do the Terrored waywatcher. Set him up in the midst of his "castle" and by odds at least one of his units will break before the his first turn. That is your hole for the rest of your army to break thru.


Edit:
If I really had to fight him straight on, I would use a unit of (treekin, dryads, and wardancers are best) in conjunction with a lord carrying a dawnspear, helm of the hunt, merciw's lotus, murder of spites on a mount (dragon hits hardest obviously). Dawnspear is my favorite WE weapon and merciw's lotus negates alot of what can wipe out your lord. 5 S4 attacks and +d6 poison attacks, 3+ armor that usually wont be lowered.

W0lf
08-02-2008, 22:09
Wood elfs dont do 'break in the front'.

you need combined charges to negate ranks then hammer in the front.

a treemen ancient with a bsb hiding nearby will hol a unit of dwarfs all game long however.