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juample
07-02-2008, 14:26
Imagine this situations:

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/7098/dibujoat6.gif (http://imageshack.us)

1)Yellow one unit has chargue against blue cavalry. The deep blue miniature is the champion unit. Can they kill more than one knight or can they just kill the champion?.

2)And if the deep blue miniatures were a character?.

3)The white unit is a bretonian knights unit in lance formation (grey ones are the only ones Knights in base contact). They are charging against a unit of slayers (orange of course :D). The first rank is plenty of Gigant Slayers (red), and there is no one Troll slayer. As the Bretonnia AB states any knight that is in position to fight, but is not is base contact, (posterior ranks when lance charge) cannot target specific models to attack. Can The rear ranks attack and kill troll slayers? Can kill gigant slayers?

4) And if the red miniatures were a characters instead unit champions (Dragon/demon Slayers in example)?

DeathlessDraich
07-02-2008, 15:48
1) Excess wounds are not carried over onto the unit - pg 76

2) Only the character is slain - excess wounds are wasted

3) Since all the models in base contact are Giant slayers, then all the attacks are directed at the Giant slayers. No excess wounds on the Troll slayers.

4) Bret knights have to specify the attacks in this case. If the attacks specifically targeting each giant slayer kills the slayer then it is possible for the whole front rank to be obliterated.

5) The knights at the back? A little tricky if they are not champions or characters. They have to distribute their hits somehow on the Giant Slayers.

Grimgormx
07-02-2008, 18:27
In the Lance Formation only the knights in the frontal rank can direct their attacks to a champion or a character in the charged unit, the knights that fight in the 2nd 3 erd etc ranks just hit the unit (regular troops)

T10
07-02-2008, 22:24
3)The white unit is a bretonian knights unit in lance formation (grey ones are the only ones Knights in base contact). They are charging against a unit of slayers (orange of course :D). The first rank is plenty of Gigant Slayers (red), and there is no one Troll slayer. As the Bretonnia AB states any knight that is in position to fight, but is not is base contact, (posterior ranks when lance charge) cannot target specific models to attack. Can The rear ranks attack and kill troll slayers? Can kill gigant slayers?


The rules fail to provide a clear answer.

Had the knights only made contact with a single champion or character and no rank-and-file, then all attacks would have been worked out against the same model. This is because there would be no opportunity to select a different target.

Had one of the knights made contact with one or more rank-and-file trooper then the rear-ward knights behind him would work out their attacks against the rank and file. This works because excess casualties on rank-and-file models carry over to other rank-and-file models.

However, if the knight in the front rank has the option of fighting either a character or a champion, then things are not so clear. While the rear-ward knights may not select their targets they do not lose the opportunity to fight just because they cannot freely chose which model to attack. (This is where the rules for the Lance Formation fall short.) You just need to find a way to allocate attacks in a way that means the knight hasn't "selected" a target.

My best suggestion is to distribute those attacks randomly between the appropriate models. If the leading knight is in contact with a wizard, a champion and a hero then he gets to choose which one to attack. Roll a d6 for each knight behind him to see which model it attacks. 1-2: the wizard, 3-4 the champion, 5-6: the hero.

In the case of a leading rank consisting of just champions and characters the same principle applies. Just bear in mind the following:

- Excess wounds on champion or character models do not carry over to rank-and-file (or other characters).
- Champions are still rank and file, so excess wounds on one champion model do not carry over to the next.

In the case of the front rank of Giant Slayers you may very well find that you are wasting wounds by causing multiple wounds on the same champion model.

-T10

juample
07-02-2008, 23:26
Nice answer T10, as always. Thank you for your expert point of view.

Greyshadow
05-04-2015, 23:24
Insightful well reasoned answer T10, well done.

Another solution is to take 'specific' as intending to mean champion or characters, as these models are unique. Using this interpretation, and considering the Forming the Lance rules as a 'non-normal' 'special effect' that may prevent a model from striking, (see BRB page 48, Fighting a Round of Close Combat, para 2), knights on the flanks of a lance may not attack if there are no non-champion rank and file models in the unit. (Standard bearers and musicians are valid targets as they are not unique, they are a rank and file model that happens to carrying these items at the time of the attack).

I think this interpretation is probably more correct.

New Cult King
06-04-2015, 09:05
Seven years and two months. Might be some kinda record...

Thread closed - let the dead threads lie peacefully in their... whatever threads are buried in.

NCK - WS ModSquad