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juample
07-02-2008, 16:49
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5769/xtrange1pz7.gif (http://imageshack.us)

1)The blue unit of the image has been charge by orange one. On the second turn blue player wants to move his character in horse into combat.

Are both options given legal? is there any more?

2)If this horse man were the Battle Standart Bearer in second case (he move to the second rank) can he still add his +1 bonus?

Festus
07-02-2008, 19:16
Easy solution:

Turn the cavalry model by 90. It just takes up the space of two infantry models still.

Festus

juample
08-02-2008, 00:46
Easy solution:

Turn the cavalry model by 90. It just takes up the space of two infantry models still.

Festus

Is that legal? i think the other player may get anrgry if i do taht way.

SuperBeast
08-02-2008, 01:04
Third diagram (lower-right) is illegal as characters must stay in the front rank unlessa) that rank is not engaged in combat and you wish to move the character to fight or b) the front rank is composed entirely of command and/or other characters
BRB, page 72-73, "Joining and leaving units"

Second diagram (upper-right) is the correct resolution, although this will mean that ALL attacks will be against the character, as he counts as the flank member of the 2nd rank also.

juample
08-02-2008, 02:00
Third diagram (lower-right) is illegal as characters must stay in the front rank unlessa) that rank is not engaged in combat and you wish to move the character to fight or b) the front rank is composed entirely of command and/or other characters
BRB, page 72-73, "Joining and leaving units"

Second diagram (upper-right) is the correct resolution, although this will mean that ALL attacks will be against the character, as he counts as the flank member of the 2nd rank also.

And what about if the top right model of the first rank is the unit champion?

BattleofLund
08-02-2008, 02:30
And what about if the top right model of the first rank is the unit champion?

Characters that move within their unit to get into base-to-base contact with enemy can displace other models - with the exception of other Characters.

Champions that do the same, move as Characters. I don't think this means they can't be displaced by moving Characters, though. The list of Champion 'in this respect treated as Characters'-instances don't seem to have it. Therefore I would say that the Champion would bow out and let the Character have his space.

But: Festus's 'easy solution' is what I too would advocate. The Lord or Hero wouldn't ride over and present his mount's flank to the enemy, but face them head-on. Hence the situation would be thus: in the top right corner the champion (since he moves as a character, and can't volontarily move once he is fighting combat), lower right corner (2nd rank and facing right) mounted character.

If your opponent disagrees, ask why.

grishnakh99
08-02-2008, 03:43
...But: Festus's 'easy solution' is what I too would advocate. The Lord or Hero wouldn't ride over and present his mount's flank to the enemy, but face them head-on. Hence the situation would be thus: in the top right corner the champion (since he moves as a character, and can't volontarily move once he is fighting combat), lower right corner (2nd rank and facing right) mounted character.
Disagree. You can only turn in this manner if you win combat. You cannot have models facing in different directions in a Rank and File unit.

I believe both options would be legal as the only rule I can see that applies to this is under "Moving Characters Within Engaged Units".

...In his next movement phase the player is allowed to move the character into a position where he can fight. Simply swap the character for an ordinary trooper model that is already fighting. ... blah... Note that a character may not replace another character that is already engaged in combat.
This asks the question is a Champion an ordinary trooper model. Since they are governed by the same rules as characters in this instance, I would say they are not. You can move a champion around so it is in combat as well as a character. I have nothing concrete to back this up, I can see someone interpreting that they are indeed an ordinary trooper model regardless of their special rules.

pg. 72-73, last sentence of 72: "Once he has joined the unit, the character is automatically placed in it's front rank."
pg. 73, 2nd paragraph: "If there is no room for the character in the front rank of the formation (because the standard bearer, musician and champion and/or other characters take up all available positions, for example), one of these models must be placed in the second rank of the unit. As long as the character remains in the back ranks he cannot fight... If the character is engaged in close combat (via flank or rear charge, for example) it functions normally."
pg. 74, last sentence of "Moving Characters Within Engaged Units": "Once the combat is over, they are immediately returned to the front rank."

So a character is put in the front rank and stays there in normal movement unless there are too many command models/other characters in which case it's your choice who gets pushed to the back. In combat there is no such rule that a character must stay in the front rank.

I actually think the bottom right diagram would be 'most correct' since it is the only instance in where you are replacing one, ordinary trooper. In the top right example you are replacing two.

Festus
08-02-2008, 06:21
Guys, it is really interesting to see how quickly you say that something is illegal. :D

The reasoning behind my solution is simple:
A character not in a fighting position can be moved into a fighting position in its turn.

A model of a unit attacked in the side or rear may turn to face its attacker, but this *normally; only has cosmetic value. Note that the direction of the unit does not change. As cavalry bases are more or less the only unit bases of rectangular (and not square) form, only with those it can make a difference at all.

Festus

T10
08-02-2008, 08:10
I fail to recall if 7th ed. includes instructions to turn the individual models that are engaged in close combat to face the unit they are attacking.

-T10

Edit: Oh by the way, the unit's formation is technically not legal to begin with.

BattleofLund
08-02-2008, 12:51
I fail to recall if 7th ed. includes instructions to turn the individual models that are engaged in close combat to face the unit they are attacking.

-T10


recall: p32, under which models fight?, first : 'the models are not actually turned to face their enemy'.

So I can see the merit of Grishnak99's position - but it seems contra-intuitive to move a model which isn't physically constrained by surrounding models flank-first towards the enemy.

Would of course be totally right for a cav formation (since then they are constrained)... so probably it's right for inf too. :(

juample
08-02-2008, 19:49
If your opponent disagrees, ask why.

Doing that way he loses some attaks (1 or probably 2 models), therefore i think there is no matter with this strange option (and BSB +1 Bonus still applies also in the second rank becose he is in combat)