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juample
07-02-2008, 18:23
Bonus rank conditions:

-At least 5 models wide.

I have made some diagrams:
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/1895/27eb7.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Can you state Rank bonus (0,+1,+2,+3) of these units? Any coment about is welcome too.

copy paste Bro!
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
11)
12)
13)
14)
15)
16)
17)
18)
19)
20)
21)
22)
23)
24)
25)
26)
27)

PS: OOPs i have notice #15 and #16 were the same... sorry for that.

L192837465
07-02-2008, 21:32
1) 3
2) 3
3) 3
4) 3
5) 2
6) 3
7) why would you EVER do this. also, 2
8) 3
9) 2
10) 1
11) 1
12) 1
13) 1
14) 1
15) 1
16) 1
17) 1
18) 1
19) 1
20) 1
21) 1
22) 1
23) 1
24) 0
25) 1
26) 1
27) 0

Tutore
07-02-2008, 21:42
Is the violet model a character? In case:
1) +3 obvious
2) +3 but it's debated, I firmly believe it's 3
3) as above
4-9) as above, but even more debated, and some of them are very strange situations.
10) +1 obvious
11) even more debated
12) +1 obvious
13) +1 obvious
14) ? strange situation
15) +1 obvious, but how the hell did a unit come to such a situation??
17) +1 obvious
18) +1
19) +1
20) +1
21) +1
22) +1
23) +1, but not sure if it's all ok in the unit
24) +0
25, 26, 27) what kind of unit is it supposed to be???

sainthale1988
07-02-2008, 22:19
1)3
2) 0
3) 0
4)0
5) 2
6)0
7) 0
8)0
9)0
10)1
11)0
12)1
13)1
14)0
15) is that even possible? 1
16) err the same as 15. you silly mongoose :D
17) 1. suck dosn't it
18) 1
19) 1
20)1
21)1
22)1
23)1 (only need 5 models to get rank bonus, even if ranks ahead have more than 5)
24) 0
25) damn near impossible but 1
26) same as 25: 1
27) 0

i just go by the basic rule. you need 5 MODELS to gain rank bonus, not US5 or the size of 5 standard infantry bases. your cav in the front rank takes away any infantry fillers in the second rank to have rank bonus as the cav models count as being in the front rank (no double counting)
why do you ask?

SuperBeast
07-02-2008, 23:55
i just go by the basic rule. you need 5 MODELS to gain rank bonus, not US5 or the size of 5 standard infantry bases. your cav in the front rank takes away any infantry fillers in the second rank to have rank bonus as the cav models count as being in the front rank (no double counting)
why do you ask?
Almost..
The 2004 Annual - whilst pre-current edition - has the only official discussion I've seen on the topic.
Page 81.

As there are only 2 units in the game that are capable of receiving rank bonus AND can contain mixtures of troop-type base sizes, these rules refer to characters joining units.

The Slann/Temple Guard and Reliquae/Grail pilgrims as examples both state that they count as 4 individual troop models in a 2x2 block when determining rank bonus.

The intimation is that the '5 models wide' is based on the base size of the standard R&F troop type.
For a unit consisting of 2 ranks of 4 chaos warriors joined by a steed mounted character has a rank bonus of +1, as the cavalry model counts as the '5th model' in both ranks.
Switch to 2 ranks of 3 warriors and a character on a daemonic mount, and you still get the +1, as the overall size of the unit is still minimum of 5 standard R&F troops wide.

So 5 models wide OR base size equivalent of 5 R&F models wide.
Rank number is determined by the HIGHEST number of models in any file of the unit.

Using that precedent, and assuming that the purple boxes represent the characters joining the unit;
1) thru 8) RB +3
9)+2 - unit is only 3 models deep in any one place.
10) thru 22) +1
23) +1 - rear rank is still 5 models wide
24) 0 - rear rank has only 4 R&F models and
25) & 26) +1 - both ranks contain 5 models
27) 0 - subsequent ranks do not have 5 R&F models

Bear in mind that whilst this may seem strange, the later diagrams would be highly unlikely as they would require in excess of 3 characters joining the same unit...

sainthale1988
08-02-2008, 08:09
i just read though the the rule book (p38) to do with extra ranks, it just says if your 'formation' is 5 models wide (i.e. the front rank) then you can claim rank bonus for every full rank behind (up to +3). this is rather interesting, as before if i wanted a mounted caracter in a unit of infantry (for the better armour save) i put them 6 wide, to still get rank bonus. good to know: cheers!

Fredmans
08-02-2008, 08:41
I know the diagrams are supposed to deal with characters and units in 7th ed, but if you turn #25 around, you get the normal set-up for 5 rat ogres with handlers. I have never seen them fielded in packs of 5, but if they were, would they get a +1 rank bonus? If one of the set-ups (5 characters in a 40x40 unit or the rat ogre example) gets a rank bonus, then it would apply to both, right? Or is there a rat ogres' rule in the Skaven army book that denies them ranks?

/Fredmans

Leogun_91
08-02-2008, 08:46
7) why would you EVER do this. also, 2


Oviously it is a unit of 12 bestigors joined by 2 doombulls.

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-02-2008, 09:35
Seems like a good number of those unit formations are either impossible, or highly improbable so I'll just comment.
It's simple really, you need to be five models wide to get a rank bonus. How big your bases are is irrelevant. So you need to have 5 ogres for a rank, just as you need 5 knights or 5 humans.

If you then have say a character on a bigger base join the unit you count up how many models he 'displace' and count him as that.
So a character on a 40*40mm base would count as being two models wide and two models deep in a unit of infantry. However, he would only count for one in a unit of ogres.

Milgram
08-02-2008, 11:42
first: I can't believe that anyone takes 7 AND 22 as legal. there are only two possibilities:

either
1 model = 1 model regardless of base size
OR
base size determines how much space a model takes up in an unit.

if you go with the first statement then 7 is either wider (2 ogre bases, 3 normals) and gets 1 rank bonus (three normals in front rank, only 9 left for the other two ranks) or the unit does not get rank bonus (2 ogre bases, 1 normal wide, but all back ranks only 3 models)

if you're with the second statement, in the case of 22 the unit width would be either 4 or 5 ogre bases wide. anyways there would not be a rank bonus as 5 ogre bases wide would mean 4 ogre bases in the front rank and 4 in the back.

you can't have both.

how we play it:
a bigbased character takes up as much space as his model uses up. ranks are calculated by counting heads.
a single smallbased character in a bigbased unit takes up no room, tow characters will fill in for one bigbased model. i.e. the front line is wider but if there have to be 5 bigbased models or 4 bigbased and two small ones in the front rank to get rank bonus at all.

ranks stay 'in line' unlike you did in 18, so it is clearer who is able to strike back if the unit is charged into the flank.

edit: just realised that I had no second point.

Braad
08-02-2008, 12:53
first: I can't believe that anyone takes 7 AND 22 as legal.

7: As someone said, a beast herd joined by two minotaurs would look like this.

22: This would indeed be impossible, cause the long base could only be (AFAIK) a cavalry base, and that means its 25x50, implying the rest of the unit would be 50x50. I don't know any units that consist of 50x50 bases...
But if there is, or if it is meant to represent a unit of 40x40 base mini's, then it is a unit of trolls joined by both a mounted and on foot character...

I agree with Superbeast on his rank-numbers.
The thing in the annuals of 2004 weighs in the heaviest for me. If not, taking Skarsnik in any unit less then 7 wide would be pointless. I don't think that's the idea behind the rank-bonus thing. It represents the scaryness of such a block of warriors in front of you, that shouldn't become less when it is joined by some huge beasty...

Milgram
08-02-2008, 13:26
7: As someone said, a beast herd joined by two minotaurs would look like this.

this is not my point. a unit of chaos warriors with two champions on a demonic steed would look the same.

the problem is that he applies two different approaches to raw for the various diagrams. how is it called in english? double standard?

sainthale1988
08-02-2008, 14:02
' wanting it both ways' i think you mean. but i don't agree i think he means solution 1
' model = 1 model regardless of base size' but if a large base entrudes into the second rank then it can be counted there as well.

juample
08-02-2008, 17:31
Hi guys!

Firstly, i know they are a little bit irreal and extrange/hipotetical situations. I try to cover many combinations.(and yes pruple models represents characters.)

I know some of them were illagal AFIK: In example:
27> There are 2 ranks whit less miniatures tha the first, there only can be one.

In the other hand 1,10,17 were basic and without problems formations.

well 2)> Probably the most often situation. I think following only the BRB we can affirm this unit has a BR +3. We have to see if it is a legal formation, and it has at least 5 models/rank.
As we can see and count all ranks has 5 models. Ok, Ok the horse is in two differents, ranks at the same time, but rules dont say this can't be done. Then following the BRB 2), 3) 4) and 6) can take a +3 BR in combat. ANd beliveme other options are no better:
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1227/10523492qk8.gif (http://imageshack.us)


5)>As the whole first rank is composed by characters, there count as only one rank, not 2 so there are only 3 ranks so +2BR. 15), 16), 26) and 26) in the same way.

7), 8) 9) 11) and 14) the problem with them, is that they have 50x50 bases inside. If we only use BRB they are ilegal formations as long as they broke the rules in page6. (few models in first rank and only the rear rank with less). We can as with horse base it is in two files at the same time, ok, it doesnt broke the rank and files formation but broke the page 6 bix rule (few models in first rank and only the rear rank with less). In example, the new drawt rulebook describe how the 40x20 base works. If we think this way we have to reorganize the unit like this.http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/2623/31982295yr3.gif (http://imageshack.us)
This way all rules are followed. Then if we asume the formation is ok. We are bringing rules of old editions, and then working with them without, GW oficial answer. Indeed, this is the best be can do IMHO, and use this old rule, until GW says another thing.

This way 7)>+3BR, 8)>+3BR 9)>+2BR 11)>+1BR and 14)>+1BR, if not... illegal formation.

12) and 13) they were hard for me explain them. They are legal as long as they only have les models in the rear rank, and as long as they have 5 wide, they get BR for each complete rank. Now I see there 3 ranks:
12) 1st> 5 models (4+1) 2nd>5models() 3rd 4 models
13) 1st> 5 models (4+1) 2nd>5models() 3rd 3 models
So if this formation was posible in any way (maybe 4 characters ina jezzail units ?)

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6610/13pb8.gif (http://imageshack.us)

I think these hipotetical formations have a +3BR.

Following this:

18) 1
19) 1
20) 1
21) 1
22) 1
23) 1
24) ILEGAL

All this come from i want to include a horse (BSB, 25x50) in a unit of pilgrims (20x20) with the relicar (40x60!!!! yes it is like 6 pilgrims not 4) and i dont wanna have problems with people for the rank bonus.
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1851/relicarandbsbla2.gif (http://imageshack.us)
NOTE AFIK the bretonnian RB doesnt state nothing about relicar base o relicar and rank bonus.

Shamfrit
08-02-2008, 17:45
On a side note, Skarsnik counts as 6 night goblins. Therefore you only need 4 goblins to a side of him to get +1.


Follow the rules for the Screaming Bell, you can't go too wrong.

Noldo
08-02-2008, 17:56
I agree mostly on juample's assesment. Counting larger base as equal to the bases it replaces as per Annual 2004 is my favoured interpretation, even though it is not actually anywhere stated in the rulebook (for the record, neither is the opposite).

The cases where characters are on smaller bases are more difficult. There one just have to assume interpretation that any base takes a place of at least one model, since otherwise base size difference would prohibit characters joining units with different base size all together and all those formations.

I would say that 24 is not illegal per se, it is just a bit misleadingly portrayed, since the model on back rank would only be behind one of the character models, not both. The same would apply to #23. (If one would like to have rank bonus of +2 with unit of #23, I would say that 6 models need to added, in order to have only one rank with less models).

Now, the real problem has beend dodged here. Namely 40mm base on unit of 25mm infantry. In that case the base size of the character is cleraly larger than normal infantry, but it does not take sufficient space to fully cover second rank or file. Should it be counted as 1 model, 2 models or 4 models for rank purposes? (Question is naturally void if one considers that any base can only be counted as one).
--------------------------

Overall, I would point out that there are multiple examples where a model has been ruled to count as more than one model (Skarsnik, Shieldbearers, Slann?, Screaming Bell?), but there are no definite rulings that model would only count as one model despite base size (of course such can be assumed to be so trivial that it does not need to be addressed). I am leaning very heavily towards the interpretation that rules for individual units taking more than one space do not express exception but the norm, especially considering the old Annual 2004 ruling.

juample
08-02-2008, 18:28
Now, the real problem has beend dodged here. Namely 40mm base on unit of 25mm infantry. In that case the base size of the character is cleraly larger than normal infantry, but it does not take sufficient space to fully cover second rank or file. Should it be counted as 1 model, 2 models or 4 models for rank purposes? (Question is naturally void if one considers that any base can only be counted as one).


http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/7284/40x40in25x25rs5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Like it?

sainthale1988
08-02-2008, 20:36
ahh now that just look silly!

juample
08-02-2008, 22:54
ahh now that just look silly!

It can looks silly but there are not so much better options. Where is your proposal?

sainthale1988
09-02-2008, 10:25
no need to get agressive now! i was just thinking you have gaps in your rear ranks (not complete/ full) which might just not look so good on the table, i'm not saying its wrong to get rank bonus.

Danny76
09-02-2008, 22:43
so 18 empire swordsmen for example, with a mounted character would count as plus3 ranks?
First rank would be 4 and the horse
second would be 4 with rest of horse
then 2 lots of 5

Sashu
10-02-2008, 01:44
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/7284/40x40in25x25rs5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Like it?

It doesn't look pretty, but it's the only legal way.

To go through the List....
1) +3
2) Illegal
3) Illegal
4)Illegal
5)+2
6)Illegal
7)Illegal
8)Illegal
9)Illegal
10)+1
11)Illegal
12)+1
13)+1
14)illegal
15)+1
16)+1
17)+1
18)+1
19)+1
20)+1
21)+1
22)+1
23)+1 (first rank is 6 wide)
24)+0
25)+1
26)+1
27)Illegal

Remember, for ranks, and width, base size doesn't matter. A cavlery model doesn't displace two rank and file models. All ranks must be the same number of models wide save for the last rank.



so 18 empire swordsmen for example, with a mounted character would count as plus3 ranks?
First rank would be 4 and the horse
second would be 4 with rest of horse
then 2 lots of 5


No. The model is only in one rank. In this case it is the first rank. See the attachment for how it actually works out. Yes, its ugly, but by the letter of the rules, its how it works. Now, most people won't have a problem with you adjusting the models, but by the letter of the rule that is not correct.

Yehoshua
10-02-2008, 05:21
Sashu, I think you're wrong.

Page 6 requires that you have the same number of models per rank, and fails to refer to files.

Page 38 (for rank bonuses) only requires that a formation be at least 5 models wide and that each rank contain at least 5 models.

Under the rules, two cavalry models with six 25x25 models may get one rank bonus, as the formation can have 5 models per rank, be 5 models wide, and each rank can contain 5 models.

This does mean, however, that a 50x50 model with six 25x25 models cannot enjoy a rank bonus (It would only contain 4 models per rank).

I cannot find a rule anywhere that says a model may only count for one rank's worth of rank bonus.

sainthale1988
10-02-2008, 10:28
I cannot find a rule anywhere that says a model may only count for one rank's worth of rank bonus.

thats what i thought, beause a cav model in a unit of infantry is 1 model in the first rank, and 1 model in the second rank. both ranks still have 5 models, just the cav is counted twice.

DeathlessDraich
10-02-2008, 11:23
So many illegal formations in your original diagram juample.

1) A legal formation *must* have incomplete ranks in its back rank only.

2) A model has a clear and specific meaning. A cavalry model etc is *one* model and one model only. There are 2 exceptions for base mismatches - see below.

3) Where there is a base size mismatch, rule (1) must still be adhered to.

4) To gain rank bonuses there *must* be 5 models in each rank. If there is a cavalry model, model with a bigger base etc in the first rank, it can only count as *one* model. There are exceptions to this which are specified in the army books - Slann and Screaming Bell off the top of my head.

5) For simplicity and aesthetic reasons, a nice rectangular unit shape is acceptable to most players.
But
For counting ranks and outnumbering in combat, 25% casualties, shooting randomisation > 5 models, etc, (1), (2) and (4) must be used.

T10 has a 'nice' diagram to illustrate how models are ranked up in units with base mismatches.

Festus
10-02-2008, 11:39
And as we all know, DDraich, T10's nice diagram is so blatantly against 1st the intent of the rules and 2nd all previous editions, that it basically is for laughs only.

Even T10 knows this himself, hence he always presents it somewhat *tongue in cheek*.

It still is easiest and most fair to think of bases as occupying a certain number of 20/25mm slots:

20mm square / 25mm square = 1 slot each
cavalry base / Dwarf King's base = 2 slots each
40mm square and 50mm square = 4 slots each

If your unit consists of 20/25 bases, so you need 5x slots to fill a rank (at least). If it is of cavalry, you will need 10 slots;
and for Ogre/Monsters, you will need 20 slots.

And if you adopt this system, you will never have any problem anymore... :D

Festus

Cromenon
10-02-2008, 12:32
T10 has a 'nice' diagram to illustrate how models are ranked up in units with base mismatches.

Where can it be found? thanks :)

DeathlessDraich
10-02-2008, 13:32
And as we all know, DDraich, T10's nice diagram is so blatantly against 1st the intent of the rules and 2nd all previous editions, that it basically is for laughs only.


Where can it be found? thanks :)

You've focused on the least important part of my post.
Points (1) to (5) are far more important.


It still is easiest and most fair to think of bases as occupying a certain number of slots:

And if you adopt this system, you will never have any problem anymore... :D

Festus

This does not address the main problem regarding number of models in each rank.

I'm sure you agree with this:

5) For simplicity and aesthetic reasons, a nice rectangular unit shape is acceptable to most players.
But
For counting ranks and outnumbering in combat, 25% casualties, shooting randomisation > 5 models, etc, (1), (2) and (4) must be used.

Urgat
10-02-2008, 14:15
They're different rules (the 25% thing and so on) to completling a rank, so I don't see why it would have any impact on counting full ranks? A horse counts as two 25mm bases for outnumbering, and randomisation kicks in when the unit is bellow 6 models anyway (so no more rank issues), so it wouldn't change a thing in that regard. I don't know anybody besides a few like you on warseer that wouldn't count the mounted mini as part of both ranks, since when you count the minis in the first rank, you have 5 minis, and when you count the minis in the second rank, you have 5 minis as well. Both ranks have 5 minis, so it's legal and works that way, that's exactly what it is said in my brb, and I would never allow anybody playing me to question that, or the game would end right away.

Festus
10-02-2008, 14:23
5) For simplicity and aesthetic reasons, a nice rectangular unit shape is acceptable to most players.
But
For counting ranks > 5 models, etc, (1), (2) and (4) must be used.

TBH, no, I do not agree with this.

As this would make units look likr T10's diagram. And it is not only ugly, it is counterintuitive, and it is surely not intended.
As we all know from 6th ed (which had basically the same rules), the designers do not want us to do any such nonsense.

Units have to be in nice rectangular blocks (not counting skirmishers) to make things easy. Why we should now overcomplicate the selfsame things again is not in any way clear to me.

Believe me, I know the rules. And I know that they are sloppily written. And I know how we are supposed to handle it. And let me assure you, this is not the way you present.

Feel free to follow the rules all the way to Absurdiztan, but I know where to draw the line for the sake of the game. :)

Festus

Sashu
10-02-2008, 16:17
Sashu, I think you're wrong.

I cut stuff out here

I cannot find a rule anywhere that says a model may only count for one rank's worth of rank bonus.

By that logic, a unit of 10 men can have a complete rank bonus of +3. THe men in the first rank don't count, their in the first rank. The next ten men are in the second, third, and forth rank. Now, you could argue that, but I would hit you with a rule book.

By the letter of the rules, cavalry models don't count as in two ranks. Period. Now, this is stupid, and looks terrible. The most common time in 7th you have different base sizes is with a character on a horse joining infantry. There are several different ways to deal with this. First, you use the setup I showed above, and deal with the fact that the unit is stupid. Second you can simply take one rank and file and set him aside, and put the cavalry model so that it takes up the extra space. I commonly have cavalry in infantry units and what I do is play by number #2 in the diagram, removing two infantry models. I then remember the letter of the rules and treat the unit as if it were following the letter of the rules. (Basically, to get a rank I need a complete rank and one man in the rank behind them)

Now, is this the official way to play it? No. Does it work? Yes.

Urgat
10-02-2008, 16:25
By that logic, a unit of 10 men can have a complete rank bonus of +3. THe men in the first rank don't count, their in the first rank. The next ten men are in the second, third, and forth rank.

Sorry what? I don't understand that at all.

Yehoshua
10-02-2008, 17:42
Yah, what are you talking about, Sashu? The rules say you get a rank bonus for each complete rank "beyond the first." So you need two complete ranks to get one rank bonus.

You still actually need multiple ranks to get rank bonus.

This is also evidenced by page 6, where ranks are "composed of multiple horizontal lines," and there's a nifty diagram showing you that your unit of 10 (arrayed in a single horizontal line) can't count as being multiple ranks.

We're talking about adding different sized models to a unit, and the rank bonus rules, which permit having one model count for two ranks.

Deathless: two ranks are not "incomplete" with 8 infantry and a cavalry model. A model doesn't stop being one model just because you count it once for each rank it occupies. Page 38: Is the formation five models wide? Yes. Are there five models in the first rank? Yes. Are there five models in the second rank? Yes. One rank bonus.

Sashu
10-02-2008, 18:31
Yah, what are you talking about, Sashu? The rules say you get a rank bonus for each complete rank "beyond the first." So you need two complete ranks to get one rank bonus.

You still actually need multiple ranks to get rank bonus.

This is also evidenced by page 6, where ranks are "composed of multiple horizontal lines," and there's a nifty diagram showing you that your unit of 10 can't count as being multiple ranks.

We're talking about adding different sized units to a unit, and the rank bonus rules, which permit having one model count for two ranks.

Deathless: two ranks are not "incomplete" with 8 infantry and a cavalry model. A model doesn't stop being one model just because you count it once for each rank it occupies. Page 38: Is the formation five models wide? Yes. Are there five models in the first rank? Yes. Are there five models in the second rank? Yes. One rank bonus.

My point was ridiculus. That was the point. A model can only be in one rank. If you assume it works with a model on a mount in a unit, why not apply it to the rest of the unit. Sorry for any confusion.

Conotor
10-02-2008, 18:34
Whatever model is most commin in the unit is the standard size. Assume the entire area is filled with the standard size.

Festus
10-02-2008, 19:08
My point was ridiculus. That was the point. A model can only be in one rank. If you assume it works with a model on a mount in a unit, why not apply it to the rest of the unit. Sorry for any confusion.
It is ridiculous -

and that a model may only be in just one rank is pure conjecture. Nowhere in the BRB to be found.

Festus

SuperBeast
11-02-2008, 00:54
It is ridiculous -

and that a model may only be in just one rank is pure conjecture. Nowhere in the BRB to be found.

Festus
Also, and I can't find an online copy of this to direct people to, but the 2004 annual quite clearly supports mine & Festus' position.

DeathlessDraich
11-02-2008, 09:53
TBH, no, I do not agree with this.


You haven't read post #25 carefully. You are disagreeing to 3 rules.



Units have to be in nice rectangular blocks (not counting skirmishers) to make things easy. Why we should now overcomplicate the selfsame things again is not in any way clear to me.

Yes, if they can but it is obvious geometry that a mixture of one or two 25mm base models in a unit of mainly 20mm models, 5 wide can never be rectangular.
Again, I think you have not read my first post carefully or fully understood it.



Believe me, I know the rules. And I know that they are sloppily written. And I know how we are supposed to handle it. And let me assure you, this is not the way you present.

Unless you wrote the rules yourself, this is unfounded.:p




Deathless: two ranks are not "incomplete" with 8 infantry and a cavalry model. A model doesn't stop being one model just because you count it once for each rank it occupies. Page 38: Is the formation five models wide? Yes. Are there five models in the first rank? Yes. Are there five models in the second rank? Yes. One rank bonus.

Please read my posts carefully before commenting



and that a model may only be in just one rank is pure conjecture. Nowhere in the BRB to be found.

Festus

You are addressing the wrong question. It is not how the unit appears that is being debated or whether a model occupies the spaces in one or more rank.

It is the effect of them occupying more than one rank on the issues I mentioned in post#25 that is important:

1) Incomplete ranks and legal formation
2) Randomisation during shooting
3) Panic test from 25% casualties
4) Rank bonuses and outnumbering (not really a problem but requires clarification) during combat resolution

I won't go into the details for the above four.

Just apply you interpretation to relevant cases of the above four and you will find you will have to make quite a few assumptions



Also, and I can't find an online copy of this to direct people to, but the 2004 annual quite clearly supports mine & Festus' position.

Yes, I still have a copy. It was written with typical GW short sightedness.
Only rank bonuses and legal formation were addressed - that leaves 3 other unresolved problems - outnumbering (as mentioned above not really a problem but requires clarification), shooting randomisation and 25% casualties.

I have never simply argued for one side in any thread on this forum but I always examine all sides first and then applied each interpretation to various scenarios. Your interpretation creates further problems.

Urgat
11-02-2008, 10:33
It is the effect of them occupying more than one rank on the issues I mentioned in post#25 that is important:

1) Incomplete ranks and legal formation
2) Randomisation during shooting
3) Panic test from 25% casualties
4) Rank bonuses and outnumbering (not really a problem but requires clarification) during combat resolution

You accuse Festus of not reading a post, but you've blatantly ignored mine too.
Point 1) is what is discussed, so no need to go back to it.
Points 2), 3) and 4) (well, outnumbering part of point 4, since rank bonus comes with 1) if you ask me) are a no brainer.
Point 2 apply to units that are 5 stong or less, where there's no ranks anymore anyway, so the point is moot.
Outnumbering and 25% casualty, you count the models, where's the problem ( and if you have a mounted character, it is US 2 so it's not different than if you had 2 minis)? besides, no matter how you wanna take the mini inclusion in the unit, the result for the 25% test, the US and whatever will remain the same. It could be an argument if the character on a mount actually replaced a mini in the unit, but he does not, he's just added in the ranks, and the two guys whom the character took their place are just moved to the back of the unit, it's not like you save points on two minis or anything.

You still fail to answer to the fact that, no matter how you look at the ranks, when you count the minis in them, there's 5 per rank, regardless of whether one belongs to two ranks or not. A 25mm guy in a 20 mm unit is a different matter entirely, though, I agree, since there's no way to argue that this 25mm base fills the second rank too.

Yehoshua
11-02-2008, 11:59
DD: Well, I can't really put it much better than Urgat did, so I'll just tell you that I read your post three times, and I'm surprised that you still see any problem.

What the heck, I'll just reiterate.

On p.74 for shooting randomization, you simply divide the number of hits between each member of the unit, then randomise which models are hit with a dice roll. You just follow the example as given; the size of any particular model never enters into it.

Panic on p.49 refers to "25% or more of the models it started the phase with." A 25x50mm model in a unit of 25x25mm models is still just one model. Again, it's occupation of multiple ranks doesn't somehow make it more than one model.

How does outnumbering require clarification? You just sum the various US values of all the units on either side (pp. 38 and 71). This one especially couldn't be simpler.

In short, please clarify your objections if there's something more here than I've stated.

DeathlessDraich
11-02-2008, 13:40
You accuse Festus of not reading a post, but you've blatantly ignored mine too.

No need to protect Festus. He's a big boy and can reply for himself and shout me down or lose his compusure with me. He's done that in the past and we still mutually respect each other ... I think :p

Sorry for not replying to your post but I wasn't really sure you were directly addressing me.



Points 2), 3) and 4) (well, outnumbering part of point 4, since rank bonus comes with 1) if you ask me) are a no brainer.
Point 2 apply to units that are 5 stong or less, where there's no ranks anymore anyway, so the point is moot.
Outnumbering and 25% casualty, you count the models, where's the problem

If you fail to see the problem then maybe you have not looked at it in sufficient depth. :)



You still fail to answer to the fact that, no matter how you look at the ranks, when you count the minis in them, there's 5 per rank, regardless of whether one belongs to two ranks or not.

Minis? as in mini skirts?:D.

You have to be a little more exact with the terms used


DD: Well, I can't really put it much better than Urgat did, so I'll just tell you that I read your post three times, and I'm surprised that you still see any problem.

Try again. Fourth time lucky? lol



On p.74 for shooting randomization, you simply divide the number of hits between each member of the unit, then randomise which models are hit with a dice roll. You just follow the example as given; the size of any particular model never enters into it.

I am sure you would realise that stating the obvious cannot be the problem I mentioned.



Panic on p.49 refers to "25% or more of the models it started the phase with." A 25x50mm model in a unit of 25x25mm models is still just one model. Again, it's occupation of multiple ranks doesn't somehow make it more than one model.

Getting warm here.
Check the 'definitions' of terms you have used



In short, please clarify your objections if there's something more here than I've stated.

Yes, I could but wouldn't you want to venture on a voyage of discovery and find out for yourself. :p

Can I suggest that you scrutinise each rule and how it is phrased a little more closely and then apply your solution to mismatching base sizes to these rules. That is what I have done.

Mercules
11-02-2008, 16:08
The rules state:

If your unit's formation is at least five models wide, you may claim a bonus of +1 for each rank behind the first that the unit had at the start of that combat turn, up to a maximum of +3. The bonus can be claimed for an incomplete last rear rank so long as it contains at least five models.

No where does it state that any rank must contain 5 or more -individual- models. All it talks about is the width, not the actual number of models. A model with a base that is two wide of the standard unit base size takes up the width of two bases and pushes the width to 5 models wide with the addition of 3 normal size model's bases.

In fact if we look at rules like those in the Armybook Lizardmen we see precedents for displaced models.

If the Slann has joined a unit of troops, the unit counts rank bonuses as if the space taken by the palanquin was taken by normal troops.

Again with the Screaming Bell from Armybook Skaven:

The unit's rank bonus is calculated normally, treating the bell as an equivalent number of models (see the diagrams on the right).

Which clearly illustrates the bell taking the place of 2 models in each of three ranks.

Festus
11-02-2008, 16:23
Hi

Mercules - I think this is exactly the Crux: GW deemed fit to include rules for those two units - and failed to include something even rudimentary simple for all other cases.

I can only interpret the rules - as does DDraich. My findings are different from DDraichs, because we interprete the rules differently.

This does not mean that I understand what US, outnumbering and 25% casualties has to do with the problem of Rank Bonus. They are completely unconnected.

Festus

PS: Thanks for defending me, Urgat :)

Yehoshua
11-02-2008, 19:42
DD, if you are unwilling or unable to communicate your objections to me, Festus, or Urgat, then you're very unlikely to be able to communicate them to anyone else.

Objections which you cannot explain may as well not exist.

DeathlessDraich
11-02-2008, 20:51
The rules state:

If your unit's formation is at least five models wide, you may claim a bonus of +1 for each rank behind the first that the unit had at the start of that combat turn, up to a maximum of +3. The bonus can be claimed for an incomplete last rear rank so long as it contains at least five models.

Nice colour.



. A model with a base that is two wide of the standard unit base size takes up the width of two bases and pushes the width to 5 models wide with the addition of 3 normal size model's bases.

??? This is completely wrong.

I'm sure Festus would agree.


DD, if you are unwilling or unable to communicate your objections to me, Festus, or Urgat, then you're very unlikely to be able to communicate them to anyone else.

Objections which you cannot explain may as well not exist.


LOL! LOL!
I think I've actually communicated my objections in my previous posts.
It seems no one has taken the trouble to understand them.
Reading them superficially doesn't help.

To quote Pope (Alexander, not the one in Rome):p
"A little learning is a dangerous thing ...
Those shallow draughts intoxicate the brain
And drinking largely sobers us again"

Drink large Yeshoshua

Mercules
11-02-2008, 20:58
Nice colour.



??? This is completely wrong.

I'm sure Festus would agree.




LOL! LOL!
I think I've actually communicated my objections in my previous posts.
It seems no one has taken the trouble to understand them.
Reading them superficially doesn't help.

To quote Pope (Alexander, not the one in Rome):p
"A little learning is a dangerous thing ...
Those shallow draughts intoxicate the brain
And drinking largely sobers us again"

Drink large Yeshoshua

"I've already explained it but you don't understand it." is hardly communicating. Maybe explain it again in a different manner that is more clear?

Now, if my example is completely wrong explain the precedents I quoted where they state that the larger base takes the place of a similar number of smaller based models? I don't think I'm very far off.

I agree that a 25x25 sized base does not count as 2 20x20 bases, but a 40x40 base would.

DeathlessDraich
11-02-2008, 21:20
"I've already explained it but you don't understand it." is hardly communicating. Maybe explain it again in a different manner that is more clear?

I might have to after all.



I agree that a 25x25 sized base does not count as 2 20x20 bases, but a 40x40 base would.

This does not sound correct even mathematically (2 20X20 bases -> 40 X40 base??) but let us ignore that and turn to Warhammer Fantasy rules.

As I mentioned before - using the right terms is very important. 'Base' is not a term that is present in the rules I mentioned previously.

'Space', another term used by someone else previously, is another loose term that could mean many things since it is not 'defined' by warhammer.

When making an interpretation any usage of terms not related to Warhammer should not be used if a known Warhammer term is already present.

These terms in Warhammer have very specific meanings and specific rules:
Rank; Rank bonus; casualties; unit; model.

When these terms are used in the rulebook, their meanings are very sepcific and cannot be ignored or modified.
To do so would create chaos in other rules where these terms are used stringently.

Whew!:p and that was only the introduction to my explanation.

grishnakh99
12-02-2008, 02:31
DD: Correct me if I'm wrong. I do not mean to speak for you.

I think what DD is implying is how can a single character cavalry model count as a single model for:
1) Randomization during shooting
2) Panic test from 25% casualties
But count as being in two ranks (effectively two infantry models) for Rank Bonuses.

If a mounted character joins a mounted unit then he counts as one model for randomization during shooting, panic tests due to casualties, and as one model for Rank Bonuses.

If a mounted character joins an infantry unit, he counts as one model for randomization duing shooting, one model for panic tests due to casualties, but two models for Rank Bonuses?

When a character joins a unit, it states that it joins the front rank. If there are too many characters/command models it is placed into the second rank. Not first and second, or second and third ranks.

It's a grey area, and I see both sides, but lean towards DDs interpretation. Rank them up as best you can, but it doesn't make sense to me that a model counts as being in multiple ranks, and that all these areas are mutually exclusive.

lparigi34
12-02-2008, 03:09
DD: It's a grey area, and I see both sides, but lean towards DDs interpretation. Rank them up as best you can, but it doesn't make sense to me that a model counts as being in multiple ranks, and that all these areas are mutually exclusive.


Though I totally agree with you...

The old FAQ about this may bear the burden of the confusion, so current RAW will have you to make you units to rank in odd ways when you include different sized base characters...

And that really looks ugly...

And Fantasy is also about coolness and good looking R&F units, so we disregard RAW and play as per the FAQ...

Yehoshua
12-02-2008, 04:09
Grishnakh, it's not counting as two models. It's one model in each rank.

It joins the first rank and is also part of the second rank. The fact that it is in the first rank does not prevent it in any way from being a model in the second rank as well.

As far as this discussion goes, I think the rules are clearly mutually exclusive. Sure, shooting, panic tests, and ranks all involve models; that's true without being persuasive.

Mercules
12-02-2008, 05:00
This does not sound correct even mathematically (2 20X20 bases -> 40 X40 base??) but let us ignore that and turn to Warhammer Fantasy rules.

Per Rank, which is what we were speaking. Taking things out of context often makes them not make sense.



As I mentioned before - using the right terms is very important. 'Base' is not a term that is present in the rules I mentioned previously.

'Space', another term used by someone else previously, is another loose term that could mean many things since it is not 'defined' by warhammer.

When making an interpretation any usage of terms not related to Warhammer should not be used if a known Warhammer term is already present.

These terms in Warhammer have very specific meanings and specific rules:
Rank; Rank bonus; casualties; unit; model.

I found the definition of Model.

Each model is an individual playing piece with it's own capabilities and characteristics.

and Unit

A unit usually consists of several models (cavalry or infantry) that have banded together, but a single, powerful model such as a lone character, a chariot or a Dragon, a war machine and its crew, etc, are also considered to be a unit.

Wow... very specific and not at all ambiguous. "Usually... but... etc." Those are truly specific terms.

We will ignore that and move on to Rank and File.

Models in a unit of infantry or cavalry are arranged in a formation that consists of one, two, three or more horizontal lines, called ranks (See Diagram 6.1 - Ranks & Files). As far as possible, the unit always has the same number of models in each rank and, where not possible, it is alway the rear rank that is left short (in which case it's referred to as an incomplete rank). The last rank is filled from the center.

The vertical lines of models in a unit are called files, and that explains why sometimes the members of a unit are referred to as 'the rank-and-file troopers' (to distinguish them from characters that have joined the unit).

Again I'll point out that it doesn't say that each rank will have a unique model, just the same number in each rank. With x being 20x20 based models and Y being the 25x50 based model we see that there are 5 models in each rank.

xxYxx <- 5 models
xxYxx <- 5 models
xxxxx <- 5 models

Rank bonus

If your unit's formation is at least five models wide, you may claim a bonus of +1 for each rank behind the first that the unit had at the start of that combat turn, up to a maximum of +3. The bonus can be claimed for an incomplete last rear rank, so long as it contains at least five models.

If you look at my above example, the formation is 5 models wide and has three ranks. That equates to a +2 rank bonus according to the rules as written.

And on another point Base IS used in reference to units. Unit types on pages 6&7 refer to the various bases and sizes of those bases that various unit types use. The term Base is as well defined as most others and is used in numerous points throughout the game. You can attack models that you are in base-to-base contact with, you measure distance between models from base to base, and you use the units base to determine LoS.



When these terms are used in the rulebook, their meanings are very sepcific and cannot be ignored or modified.
To do so would create chaos in other rules where these terms are used stringently.

Whew!:p and that was only the introduction to my explanation.

xragg
12-02-2008, 05:01
Sorry to add another twist to this debate, but what about cannonballs and similar. Take the example of the ball hitting a calvary character in a unit of infantry 4 deep.

1) Character makes his look out sir roll. Easy, cannonball hits 4 infantry, 1 in each rank.

2) Character misses his look out sir roll.
So does the cannonball hit the character and 2 infantry?
or hit the character and 3 infantry?

Among the stuff I have read here, very different answers would result.

Festus
12-02-2008, 07:57
Hi

The cannonball is easily solved: It is always 3 troopers and the character, as a cannonball hits one model per rank it moves through.

BRB, p.88f.

At laest I think noone debates that the unit in your example consists of 4 ranks, or do we? We are strictly talking Rank Bonus here (ie. when is 5 models 5 models?)

Festus

juample
12-02-2008, 07:59
Sorry to add another twist to this debate, but what about cannonballs and similar. Take the example of the ball hitting a calvary character in a unit of infantry 4 deep.

1) Character makes his look out sir roll. Easy, cannonball hits 4 infantry, 1 in each rank.

2) Character misses his look out sir roll.
So does the cannonball hit the character and 2 infantry?
or hit the character and 3 infantry?

Among the stuff I have read here, very different answers would result.

I recomend you strongly to copy-paste the question in a new thread if you want to be solved and debated as correctly.


Outnumber, and 25% casualities panic test is no about the topic, but by the way:

-I dont think no one wants to affirm a 40x40 model in a unit of 20x20 bases, count as 4 models. It is just one model, so kill him and kill a 20x20 model is the same for calculate the % of casualities.

-Outnumber has no relationship. Really don't understand problem with this. Each model has his US independently of how you calculate the bonus rank, as long as the unit strenght is independent of the bases. OK, a cavalry has US2 and infantry US1 but this is becose rulebook states this.a 40x40 base can have US3 (Ogres, trolls...), or can have another one (Mount wounds+1, if is ride monster, in example).So Screaming bell can have US1 or US 8 or also US0, i really dont know, but it doesnt have relationship with bonus rank.

Masque
12-02-2008, 08:56
The cannonball is easily solved: It is always 3 troopers and the character, as a cannonball hits one model per rank it moves through.

BRB, p.88f.

At laest I think noone debates that the unit in your example consists of 4 ranks, or do we? We are strictly talking Rank Bonus here (ie. when is 5 models 5 models?)

The cannonball hits at most one model per rank. It is still limited by the number of models it bounces through.

Festus
12-02-2008, 09:33
Hi

even a small adjustment by a few degrees will allow to hit more than one model per rank, so this never really comes up. If you are not able to draw the line so that at leas 4 models are touched by it, chances are, you may not fire at the unit at all.

Festus