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Grimgormx
08-02-2008, 13:41
Hi Guys:

I have a doubt, about always strike first and great weapons.

lets think in this, Im playing with O&G vs High elves, and I cast the Whag spell, my unit of Black orck gets to charge a unit of sword masters, in this situation the 2 units get the strike firs rule, but I decide to use 2 chopas instead the big Chopa (armed to the tef), so wo will strike first?

The elves for their greatest Initiative?

Or my BO because the sword masters are using their great weapons?

Thanks for your help

Chicago Slim
08-02-2008, 13:47
The High Elves, because their Speed of Asuryan rules are very clear and specific, allowing them to strike first even when charged and regardless of how they are equipped.

I highly recommend borrowing your opponent's book for long enough to check the rule for yourself.

Urgat
08-02-2008, 13:57
Well, I'd say the orcs hit first, because when you get such conflicts, magic is supposed to take precedence over regular rules.

Grimgormx
08-02-2008, 14:11
well, Always strike first is the same to any army, it strikes first regardless the weapon they are using, but in this case, both units have always strike first, but High elves have a big weapon.

I like the Magic preceds all rules, thats better because then I could use BO big chopas an strike first, Thats great I thought that the Wagh spell has lost strenght against the HE.

Griefbringer
08-02-2008, 14:19
Well, I'd say the orcs hit first, because when you get such conflicts, magic is supposed to take precedence over regular rules.

Wrong, magic in general does not take any precedence. Magic items takes precedence over normal rules in cases of contradiction (ie. conflict that is not otherwise resolvable by the rules) but this does not extend to any other magical things like spells.

Notice that Always Strikes First special rule is just Always Strikes First special rule, regardless of the source (eg. whether you get it from a magic item or as a mundane special ability) - one source does not trump another.

Jack of Blades
08-02-2008, 14:23
I'd say the High Elves strike first. It doesn't matter what they're using - if both sides strike first, the one with the highest initiative gets to strike first. If both have the same initiative, then roll. This is pretty clearly explain in the rulebook AFAIK.

Atrahasis
08-02-2008, 14:24
The Orcs will strike first because Strikes Last kicks in whenever Initiative is used to determine striking order. ASF vs ASF is one such instance.

tanglethorn
08-02-2008, 14:26
well, Always strike first is the same to any army, it strikes first regardless the weapon they are using, but in this case, both units have always strike first, but High elves have a big weapon.

I like the Magic preceds all rules, thats better because then I could use BO big chopas an strike first, Thats great I thought that the Wagh spell has lost strenght against the HE.


?????

What specific rules are you sighting if I may ask?

I think you should all read the High Elf army book about their ASF before making any further assessments....

Then reread the section about Great Weapons.

In summary, Great Weapons strike last regardless of initiative order except under the following circumstances:

1) The unit wielding great Weapons is Charging.
2) The Models weilding Great Weapons have the ASF rule
3) A magic item that supercedes a rule in the BRB or grants an ability

tanglethorn
08-02-2008, 14:27
The Orcs will strike first because Strikes Last kicks in whenever Initiative is used to determine striking order. ASF vs ASF is one such instance.

You could be right. What book and page number did you locate this in?

Arkturas
08-02-2008, 14:28
I would go with whatever the respective rules say for instances when both sides have always strike first. That would be strike in Initiative order I think (Going on High Elf wording). The choice of weapon has no bearing on the effects of the rule as ASF isn't cancelled (which would be the requirement for great weapons to strike last), it just follows with what happens when both sides have always strike first (as per the ASF rule, I know it's stated in the High Elf book).

The orcs are going second, and I would probably use 2 choppas anyway as you'll need all the attacks you can get and High Elves are not that hard to kill anyway.

Jack of Blades
08-02-2008, 14:28
Hmm well yes... it could go either way. Both units ''lose'' ASF, so maybe the Orcs do strike first...

EDIT: Yup, just checked the rulebook and the Orcs strike first.

ASF = ASF - Tier 1
Great Weapons < 2 Choppas - Tier 2
Initiative > Initiative - Tier 3

Atrahasis
08-02-2008, 14:30
I think you should all read the High Elf army book about their ASF before making any further assessments....Speed of Asuryan is no different to Always Strikes First. It is not a special kind of ASF, it's just ASF.


In summary, Great Weapons strike last regardless of initiative order except under the following circumstances:

1) The unit wielding great Weapons is Charging.
2) The Models weilding Great Weapons have the ASF rule
3) A magic item that supercedes a rule in the BRB or grants an ability
No, no, no.

Strikes Last is NOT something which applies except under certain circumstances. It applies only under one circumstance - where Initiative is to be used to determine striking order. If, at ANY TIME, striking order is determined by initiative, a Strikes Last model will strike last.

Urgat
08-02-2008, 14:49
lets think in this, Im playing with O&G vs High elves, and I cast the Whag spell, my unit of Black orck gets to charge a unit of sword masters, in this situation the 2 units get the strike firs rule, but I decide to use 2 chopas instead the big Chopa (armed to the tef

Just one question though, why would you want to do that? On charge, Blorcs with choppas are S5 , so you wound on 2+ and remove their saves altogether, you'd make mince meat of them using two choppas.

Grimgormx
08-02-2008, 14:58
well, I will change a little the cuestion:

if a spearmen unit of High elves is fighting a unit of sword masters, no matters who charged because the ASF cancels the charge. wich one strikes first?

Grimgormx
08-02-2008, 15:00
thats why I m using the 2 chopas, but I coul use a chopa and a Shield too.

Jack of Blades
08-02-2008, 15:00
Spearmen, because AFAIK the Swordmasters are wielding Great Weapons.

If one unit has ASF, that unit strikes first.
If both have ASF, the unit without Strikes Last weapons strikes first.
If both strike last/none strike last, resolve it in Initiative order.
If both have the same initiative, roll.

Grimgormx
08-02-2008, 15:02
ASF = ASF - Tier 1
Great Weapons < 2 Choppas - Tier 2
Initiative > Initiative - Tier 3
__________________
Jack, I agree with you, what do you think guys?

T10
08-02-2008, 16:01
The Orcs will strike first because Strikes Last kicks in whenever Initiative is used to determine striking order. ASF vs ASF is one such instance.

The Always Strike First rules are very clear:

"Models with this special rule always strike first in close combat, even before models that have charged that turn and regardless of Initiative. If fighting another model with the same special rule, use the models' Intiative to determine who strikes first (roll a dice in case of same Initiative)."

The rules contain its own concise tie-breaker procedure. I fail to see the need to complicate the matter further.

-T10

heretics bane
08-02-2008, 16:10
In the rule book it states that if you charge with great weapons you can strike first but after the first round you strike last. Magic takes pretence over normal rules

Griefbringer
08-02-2008, 16:35
Magic takes pretence over normal rules

May I repeat myself:

Wrong, magic in general does not take any precedence. Magic items takes precedence over normal rules in cases of contradiction (ie. conflict that is not otherwise resolvable by the rules) but this does not extend to any other magical things like spells.

Grimgormx
08-02-2008, 16:47
So T10, you say that even with great weapons, the HE would strike first?

So the WAGH spell is useless against HE ? orcs charge, they have ASF, and they arent using great weapons, and anyway they will strike last? why would I want to use the spell then ???

When the ASF rule was made, they werent tinking in giving this to an entire Army made of citizens (not warriors), so they give it to the army with the higest Initiative, and you cant even counter using magic? (that will be hard to achive because HE have =1 to dispel).

What happens if grimgor is in the unit, he ASF and with the WAGH spell, he gets to strikes first ? or even with 2 ASF he has to use I?

The logical think is that if 2 units that have ASF, the one with great weapons should strike after the ones with regular weapons, because the great weapon is what mades them clumsy.

Grimgormx
08-02-2008, 16:54
Sorry guys, Because I became completely sarcastic, I will try to not do that again, but I havent got to a conclusion, if magic things take precedence, then Grimgor with I 5 and ASF for his weapon will strike first at the Sword masters with I 5 and their ASF rule That isnt magic?

Jack of Blades
08-02-2008, 17:00
I repeat myself:

ASF = ASF - Tier 1
Great Weapons < Non-Great Weapons - Tier 2
Initiative > Initiative - Tier 3

The elves will strike last. Great Weapons come before Initiative in calculating which unit strikes first regardless of ASF if both sides have ASF.
If anyone wants to protest that, feel free to re-read the BRB.

Grimgormx
08-02-2008, 17:00
T10 in the case of the elven spearmen vs Sword masters who will strike first?

Thanks for your answer, Im trying to get to a conclusion and maybe create a "House Rule" for our group

Jack of Blades
08-02-2008, 17:04
Just for clarity, my post above might not include some things I didn't previously say (like ''if both sides have ASF'') meaning it could appear wrong to some of you, who may now have posted/are posting/going to post.

Atrahasis
08-02-2008, 17:19
T10 in the case of the elven spearmen vs Sword masters who will strike first?Spearmen, as the Swordmasters have great weapons.

Process is as follows:

1. Both have ASF so revert to Initiative
2. We're using Initiative, so check for Strikes Last
3. Swordmasters have Strikes Last, so strike last.

Grimgormx
08-02-2008, 17:41
Great Atrahasis,

then BO with a Wagh spell that gives them ASF, and using Choppas will strike first agains sword masters and lions, but last against spear elves.

Shamfrit
08-02-2008, 17:50
Great Atrahasis,

then BO with a Wagh spell that gives them ASF, and using Choppas will strike first agains sword masters and lions, but last against spear elves.

Spot on. This is what happens, same goes for Grimgor Ironhide.

Griefbringer
08-02-2008, 18:14
What happens if grimgor is in the unit, he ASF and with the WAGH spell, he gets to strikes first ? or even with 2 ASF he has to use I?


Always Strikes First is not a cumulative ability - gaining it from multiple sources at the same time will not gain any more advantage than gaining it from multiple source.

For example, consider an assassin with mundane special rule ability Always Strikes First that is armed with a magic sword (giving him Always Strikes first ability) that has a spell cast on him (that gives him Always Strikes First ability) that charges (strikes first) at enemy. Those effects do not cumulate into some Always Strikes Most ber-firstest rule.


if magic things take precedence

Do I need to repeat myself more?

Yehoshua
08-02-2008, 19:26
T10: Refer to "Strikes Last" on p. 54-55, to see why "Always Strikes First" on p. 94 is not a complete statement of the rules. Always Strikes First will default to initiative order when fighting another model with the same rule, and models with Strikes Last will strike last when striking is to be determined by initiative order.

Note: Always Strikes First is the only initiative rule (Cf. "Who Strikes First?" p. 34, and "Strikes Last") that does not use prior combat resolution as a tiebreaker; it goes straight to the die roll. This seems like an oversight.

T10
08-02-2008, 23:16
(1)So T10, you say that even with great weapons, the HE would strike first?

(2)So the WAGH spell is useless against HE ? orcs charge, they have ASF, and they arent using great weapons, and anyway they will strike last? why would I want to use the spell then ???

(3)When the ASF rule was made, they werent tinking in giving this to an entire Army made of citizens (not warriors), so they give it to the army with the higest Initiative, and you cant even counter using magic? (that will be hard to achive because HE have =1 to dispel).

(4) What happens if grimgor is in the unit, he ASF and with the WAGH spell, he gets to strikes first ? or even with 2 ASF he has to use I?

(5) The logical think is that if 2 units that have ASF, the one with great weapons should strike after the ones with regular weapons, because the great weapon is what mades them clumsy.

(1) High Elves in general have a higher Initiative than Orcs, and Initiative is indicated as the primary tiebreaker in the case of Always Strike First against Always Strike First.

(2) Is the Waaagh! spell useless? You should read the spell description more closely.

(3) What is this? A rules question, or whining about the apparent unfairness of High Elves against Orcs? Reach down and find a pair.

(4) The spell grants Grimgor an advantage he already has - it has no extra effect.

(5) The logical think would be that Always Strike First and Strike Last should cancel each other out. They do not. Strike Last does not factor into the description of the Always Strike First tie breaker. There. I said it again. Now it must be true.

-T10

T10
08-02-2008, 23:23
Spearmen, as the Swordmasters have great weapons.

Process is as follows:

1. Both have ASF so revert to Initiative
2. We're using Initiative, so check for Strikes Last
3. Swordmasters have Strikes Last, so strike last.

The process is as follows:

1. Both have ASF so revert to Initiative
2. EDIT: Swordmasters have I 5, Spearmen have I 5. Revert to dice-off
3. Swordmasters wins the roll (lucky!). Swordmasters strike first.


Please note that the standard rules for Who Strikes First (p34) do not take into account Always Strike First or Always Strike last.

Please note that Always Strike First (p94) is an exception to the normal rules for Who Strikes First and contains its own fully defined tie-breaker rules.

Please note that Strike Last (p54-55) is an exception to the normal rules for Who Strikes First and contains its own fully defined tie-breaker rules.

-T10

T10
08-02-2008, 23:27
T10: Refer to "Strikes Last" on p. 54-55, to see why "Always Strikes First" on p. 94 is not a complete statement of the rules. Always Strikes First will default to initiative order when fighting another model with the same rule, and models with Strikes Last will strike last when striking is to be determined by initiative order.

Note: Always Strikes First is the only initiative rule (Cf. "Who Strikes First?" p. 34, and "Strikes Last") that does not use prior combat resolution as a tiebreaker; it goes straight to the die roll. This seems like an oversight.

I read both sections as containing concise (as in: complete) procedure to resolve tie-breakers.

If Occam was a saint, I guess I'd go to heaven or something.

-T10

Jack of Blades
09-02-2008, 00:49
So Swordmasters strike fast even against units that are armed with non-GWs.
Sound's a tad extreme to me, but I guess it's true...

T10
09-02-2008, 00:57
Uh, well. It's as true as you want it to be.

Atrahasis suggests reading the "resort to intitiative order thing" as stepping back into the Who Strikes First rules because that makes sense. I suggest just resolving by Intiative/dice roll because that's simpler.

Both solutions work.

-T10

Nurgling Chieftain
09-02-2008, 02:15
Swordmasters hav I6...Er, no, that's their weapon skill but their initiative is just 5. :p

Yehoshua
09-02-2008, 08:08
T10: I'm surprised you feel differently than Atrahasis and I do, but I'd be willing to dice it off if we played a game :D

blueon462
09-02-2008, 09:44
so....lets rehash a moment:

Orcs with choppas and Waagh attack Swordmasters ->

Both have always strikes first revert to intiative ->

Since sword masters are using greatweapons they strike last as per the Stikes last rules ("troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last during close combat where they would otherwise strike in initiative order")

Is this the case? If not why is the rule for great weapons to be ignored since the ASF tie breaker says to use initiative ... and the always strike last rule says to always strike last when initiative is used.

thanks...sorry to repeat, just hoping for clarification.

Solonor
09-02-2008, 10:14
so....lets rehash a moment:

Orcs with choppas and Waagh attack Swordmasters ->

Both have always strikes first revert to intiative ->

Since sword masters are using greatweapons they strike last as per the Stikes last rules ("troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last during close combat where they would otherwise strike in initiative order")

Is this the case? If not why is the rule for great weapons to be ignored since the ASF tie breaker says to use initiative ... and the always strike last rule says to always strike last when initiative is used.

thanks...sorry to repeat, just hoping for clarification.

no problem to ask, if you dont ask you know less :)

T10 as already solved the question its simple when two ASF models fight each other they compare their initiative to see who is going first as stated in the ASF rules, thats the only factor that enters the "equation", no other rules apply here my friends, it doesnt matter who has great weapons, who is charging etc.. so i know it will sound unfair (for some not for me) but the swormasters strike first because of higher initiative (5) not (6) T10 :D

so when spearelves I5 fight Swordmasters I5, regardless of charges or GW they roll a dice to see who goes first, the ASF ruling doesnt talk about other "modifiers", only initiative value.

Gazak Blacktoof
09-02-2008, 10:31
so....lets rehash a moment:

Orcs with choppas and Waagh attack Swordmasters ->

Both have always strikes first revert to intiative ->

Since sword masters are using greatweapons they strike last as per the Stikes last rules ("troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last during close combat where they would otherwise strike in initiative order")



This is correct.

The procedure Atrahasis outlined is the correct one to use. Once a comparison of initiative values is necessary the always strikes last rule can kick in.

Baltar
09-02-2008, 10:59
This fight would look like one of those scenes in Dragonball Z where the characters disappear and all you see are occasional flashes.

Solonor
09-02-2008, 11:00
This is correct.

The procedure Atrahasis outlined is the correct one to use. Once a comparisons of initiative values is necessary the always strikes last rule can kick in.

i dont agree the ASF rules only refer to initiative values as a tie breaker, they dont talk about reverting to initiative order rules...but then again thats just my opinion of course.

Gazak Blacktoof
09-02-2008, 11:41
i dont agree the ASF rules only refer to initiative values as a tie breaker, they dont talk about reverting to initiative order rules...but then again thats just my opinion of course.


Looking at ASF "If fighting another model with the same special rule, use the moels' Initiative to determine who strikes first."

How we determine who strikes first according to Initiative isn't covered in the ASF rules so we have to use the rules on P34. If we're using the rules on P34 then any other rules that dovetail in with these must also be used. At no point are we told to ignore the always strikes last rule, it is effectively part of the initiative order rules.

Yehoshua
09-02-2008, 18:02
The answer is that, if you split hairs (i.e., the ASF rules don't explicitly refer you to Strikes Last) so as to avoid having to refer to the Strikes Last rule when dealing with two ASF combatants, it is "simpler," as T10 said.

If you are interested in referring to the Strikes Last rule because it "makes sense", again as T10 said earlier, then you do so.

Solonor
09-02-2008, 20:05
The process is as follows:

1. Both have ASF so revert to Initiative
2. EDIT: Swordmasters have I 5, Spearmen have I 5. Revert to dice-off
3. Swordmasters wins the roll (lucky!). Swordmasters strike first.


Please note that the standard rules for Who Strikes First (p34) do not take into account Always Strike First or Always Strike last.

Please note that Always Strike First (p94) is an exception to the normal rules for Who Strikes First and contains its own fully defined tie-breaker rules.

Please note that Strike Last (p54-55) is an exception to the normal rules for Who Strikes First and contains its own fully defined tie-breaker rules.

-T10

im quoting this post because you cant explain this situation better then this:

Always strike first and strike last are exceptions to the normal rules for who strikes first and both contain their own fully defined tie-breaker rules.....so swordmasters can only be attacked first by a higher initiative ASF unit/model (and chariots too :)).

lparigi34
09-02-2008, 20:23
... (and chariots too :)).

I really hope you do not mean impact hits...

Grimgormx
09-02-2008, 20:57
well, Today we play in our club, and as GW saids in their rule book, if a rule isnt well explained (in this case ASF was an exemption now is a common rule) then go to the most logical solution or roll a dice, I will propose these 2 points of view, both of them are interesting, one because rules didnt say otherwise, and the other because is magic, and its hard to make it work. and I thik that casting a spell with 12, is hard enought to not let it work just by Initiative.

And by the way, I aint whining about the new HE ASF rule, this just made it more common to have this situations, I have played 3 games vs HE and I have won 2 and lost 1, my goblin army can be a headache to those HE.

I will let you know what the group decided. (house rule for us)

Thanks everybody for your feedback.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-02-2008, 10:24
im quoting this post because you cant explain this situation better then this:...


As I said previoulsy there's no reason to exclude the strikes last exception.

All T10 said in his post was that it was an exception, not why he chose to ignore that excpetion.

Like Grimgor said, you'll probably have to roll a dice or let the gaming group come to a majority decision.

The current rumblings are that some new FAQs will be published soon, hopefully we'll get some answers to these long debated questions.

DeathlessDraich
10-02-2008, 10:57
This has been discussed several times.

Those who advocate (A) the GW strikes last, use a rule which creates absurdities when the whole section is considered:

1) pg 55 "always strike last ...where they would otherwise strike in *Initiative order*"
*Initiative order* is the all important phrase.

2) Prima facie comparison with Always strikes first:
"If fighting another model with the same rule use the models' Initiative"

This is 'Initiative order' according to those who believe in (A). Therefore rule (1) is applied.

but there is one further rule here and this leads to a vicious circle if the same interpretation of 'model's Initiative' =*Initiative Order * is used

3) "If fighting ...who suffer from the same penalty ... they would use their respective Initiative ...

This is 'Initiative order' as well. (It is easy to say it is not but the same criterion in (2) must be used).
Therefore rule 1 has to be applied and we are back to square one.

If 'Initiative Order' => rule (2)
then to be consistent 'Initiative Order => rule (3) - an absurdity

Therefore Atrahasis' method is unworkable whereas T10's works consistently.

knightwire
10-02-2008, 15:48
Heh... I think it's best you and your opponent are clear that you both agree how it works before the battle. :D

I happen to agree with T10, but Atrahasis is always solid with rules as well. So we'll see.

Grimgormx
10-02-2008, 15:54
well our club just voted and we all agree that this is a case of an old rule made wrong by new books.

so we will play it this way (all agree even HE player)

1.- If only 1 unit have ASF, regardless their weapon, they SF
2.- If 2 units fighting in a close combat has ASF, the units that doesnt have Great weapons strike first, then the unit with Great weapons, and then the unit that doesnt have ASF rules (you can use it if 2 units of HE are fighting against any othre unit, just to see if the spear men strike first than the SM vs an enemy unit)
3.- If the units have ASF and doesnt have any ASL restriction then go to initiative.

We may not be using the rules but we thougth it was the correct way to resolve, we will keep fighting and having fun knowing that we now have a solution, do the same with your regular group, and if you are playing vs a new adversari try to get an arrengement about these rule before.

Thanks guys for your opinions and help.

EvC
10-02-2008, 18:32
This has been discussed several times.

Those who advocate (A) the GW strikes last, use a rule which creates absurdities when the whole section is considered:

1) pg 55 "always strike last ...where they would otherwise strike in *Initiative order*"
*Initiative order* is the all important phrase.

2) Prima facie comparison with Always strikes first:
"If fighting another model with the same rule use the models' Initiative"

This is 'Initiative order' according to those who believe in (A). Therefore rule (1) is applied.

but there is one further rule here and this leads to a vicious circle if the same interpretation of 'model's Initiative' =*Initiative Order * is used

3) "If fighting ...who suffer from the same penalty ... they would use their respective Initiative ...

This is 'Initiative order' as well. (It is easy to say it is not but the same criterion in (2) must be used).
Therefore rule 1 has to be applied and we are back to square one.

If 'Initiative Order' => rule (2)
then to be consistent 'Initiative Order => rule (3) - an absurdity

Therefore Atrahasis' method is unworkable whereas T10's works consistently.

Except you have (deliberately?) missed out the rule where Always Strikes Last says to go to who won combat or dice off in case of equal Initiative. The absurdity does not exist, although that does not make T10's appraisal any less superior ;)

It's a far more silly question to consider what happens when two models with great weapons happen to both be charging (Most likely because of a previous turn's pursuit). So models with great weapons always strike last except when charging, in which case it goes to initiative, in which case the great weapons rule kicks in and we're back to initiative or dice-off.

I think I would prefer T10's initiative-only way of playing for simplicity, but I'd prefer great weapons to go last in ASF vs ASF for game balance. I don't think the FAQs will cover it either, because to answer the question would be to admit they had a silly rules oversight to begin with...

soots
10-02-2008, 22:46
It was a ***** rule to begin with.

I vote no one play high elves.

T10 is right if you follow the rules word for word. But i personally beleive that it was a extremely stupid mistake by the rule author and we all know it.

Logically speaking, it should be ASF cancels out ASF and we go back to the normal rules.

theunwantedbeing
10-02-2008, 22:58
Do both people have ASF?
Yes, so they fight in initiutive order.

One has a great weapon, what happens?
If they arent charging they fight at in0 so last usually. As thats what happens with initiutive.

If they both have great weapons it goes to their normal initiutive without great weapons.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-02-2008, 23:28
If they arent charging they fight at in0 so last usually.There's no initiative zero. I think you must have this mixed up with 40K, where there is only initiative; thus ASF and ASL end up as I10 and I1 respectively - but in 40K, models can strike simultaneously.

SuperBeast
11-02-2008, 00:46
The absurdity does not exist, although that does not make T10's appraisal any less superior
But it does though, because T10's description requires ignoring/fudging sections of the rules?

ASF Vs. ASF = Initiative comparison
ASL = Strike last when comparing initiative unless you charged

ergo...
ASF w/ASL charging ASF = normal initiative comparison (roll off for tie)
ASF w/ASL charged by ASF = Charging ASF strikes first
Subsequent rounds of combat, ASF strikes before ASF w/ASL
If both sides ASL-armed, then chargers strike first on turn they charge, and in subsequent turns previous winner strikes first.

Unless I'm not seeing something in the rules quoted... :confused:

Chiungalla
19-02-2008, 06:19
So if there are three units in close combat:
1 ASF unit with great weapons and I 5(A) fighting against
1 ASF unit without great weapons and I 4 (B) and
1 "normal" unit (C).

You can go your way of reading the rules.

Unit A and unit B both have ASF, so they strike in initiative order (I would never ever use this term by myself on this case), and so unit A strikes last.

And strikes last would mean, by the wording of the rules, strikes after unit C?
There is no rule that says "strikes last in there own initiative order" or something like this. Strikes last means strikes last.

So if unit A fights unit C alone, they will go before unit C, but if unit B comes in, unit A will go after unit C? No, this can't be right.

And since you can't add such things like "strikes last, but noch realy last, but only last in there own initiative order" to the rules, T10 must be right.

Yehoshua
19-02-2008, 07:15
There is no contradiction there. The Strike Last Rules literally say "will always strike last during close combat where they would otherwise strike in initiative order."

That means:
Strike Last models attack after any models who do not also have Strike Last with whom they compare initiative/strike in initiative order against (note our discussion here: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127132).
The combat order for a Strike Last model in combat with a model that it does not compare initiative with is determined without reference to Strike Last.

ASF models, on the other hand, do not compare initiative/strike in initiative order except to determine whether that model strikes before another ASF model.

So, uhm, yes - there is such a rule.

No one can be "right" in this case - the rules are far too vague.
In my opinion, this discussion should be left to die, as all parties have hashed out the argument as far as is profitable.
Alternatively, we could sticky some distillation of these threads and leave it at that.

Chiungalla
19-02-2008, 08:50
No, that is not what the rules say.
That may be what you wish the rules say.

But the rules for great weapons say: "If you strike in initiative order, you go last."

They don't say anything like: "If you strike in initiative order, you go after all within the same initiative order."

If you want to read something like that into the rules you use far too much fantasy.

There is not even anything like "different initiative orders" in the rulebook.

Jack of Blades
19-02-2008, 09:25
''Troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last during CC where they would otherwise strike in Initiative order.''

''Use the model's Initiative to determine who strikes first''. <- This is the determining sentence. Both strike first, so they are told to revert to initiative, and the Swordmasters then strike last because in any situation where Initiative is applied, they strike last, as it says in the rules. Note that the rules for striking last are actually covered in Striking Last with no confusion, and the ASF rules merely tell you to revert to Initiative (where the Strike Last rules come into play - this isn't referenced to at the ASF section because they probably assumed people would know to apply modifiers as normal).

Simplified:

ASF = ASF
So they revert to Initiative order.
Swordmasters have the greater initiative, but due to the rules for Great Weapons, they strike last.

@ Yehoshua: Yes, one side can be right. All that has to be done is twisting the whole concept of the rules in ones favour and find imaginal easter eggs in the rules as well as invent add-ons for them, and I assure you that there are people who have mastered that...

@ Chiungalla: But the rules for Great Weapons say that you strike last where you would otherwise use Initiative to determine attacking order. As the ASF rules say you revert to Initiative if both units have ASF, you will strike last. It's very simple...

Now continuing your example:

1 ASF unit with great weapons and I 5(A) fighting against
1 ASF unit without great weapons and I 4 (B) and
1 "normal" unit (C).

Unit B would therefor strike before Unit A, while Unit C would strike after Unit A.

Chiungalla
19-02-2008, 12:31
No, they will not, because unit A strikes last.
Strikes last like in no one, except zombies, strike after them you know.

For your point of view, there is no evidence in the rules.
They strike first, or they strike last.


@ Chiungalla: But the rules for Great Weapons say that you strike last where you would otherwise use Initiative to determine attacking order. As the ASF rules say you revert to Initiative if both units have ASF, you will strike last. It's very simple...

They revert you to initiative.
It is not clear if they revert you to the classic initiative order, and all the rules for the classic initiative order, and no one can be sure about this topic, until it gets an FAQ or errata.

Jack of Blades
19-02-2008, 12:38
Yes... they will strike first against unit C, because those models aren't attacking other models with ASF. If you don't believe that, go to Page 94 and re-read. ''If fighting another model with the same special rule, use the models' Initiative to determine who strikes first.'' This means that contrary to your belief, ASF affects things on a model-scale and not a combat-scale basis.

This isn't the fault of GW and an Errata isn't needed. It's just poor interpretation of pretty clear rules.

theunwantedbeing
19-02-2008, 12:52
There is no "classic inititutive order" and "ASF inititutive order", there is only "inititutive order".

So if you have an ASF model with a great weapon and in10, they fight after an ASF model with in1.
Unless the In10 model is charging.
The In10 ASf model witha great weapon doesnt "strike last" against anyone but those who also have ASF of course.

SuperBeast
19-02-2008, 12:54
/signed.

etc.

Jack of Blades
19-02-2008, 13:04
There is no "classic inititutive order" and "ASF inititutive order", there is only "inititutive order".

So if you have an ASF model with a great weapon and in10, they fight after an ASF model with in1 when using the great weapon and not charging. Otherwise they get to strike first as they have the higher inititutive value.

So what you're saying is that there's an unwritten rule which ignores Strike Last when ASF comes into the factor and they're going by Initiative because both sides have ASF?

Either that or I just misunderstood... that was kinda confusing.

theunwantedbeing
19-02-2008, 13:14
I didnt say that at all.....read my post again.

knightwire
19-02-2008, 13:19
Yes It's just poor interpretation of pretty clear rules.


Obviously they are clear as a bell. :rolleyes:

Chiungalla
19-02-2008, 13:21
Yes... they will strike first against unit C, because those models aren't attacking other models with ASF. If you don't believe that, go to Page 94 and re-read. ''If fighting another model with the same special rule, use the models' Initiative to determine who strikes first.'' This means that contrary to your belief, ASF affects things on a model-scale and not a combat-scale basis.

ASF doesn't affects things on a combat scale.
But the strikes last rule that you believe that will kick in will do.

The strikes last rule does not say anything like "after all in the same initiative order", it says last in that close combat phase.

Jack of Blades
19-02-2008, 13:50
Apply Read As Wanted at will then. If quoting the rules doesn't change your opinion, nothing will :)

@ TUB: I think I get your post now... but I'm too hazy today... can't really make anything out of it.

Soul of Iron
19-02-2008, 14:32
I really don't understand this thread. The rules in the HE book are clear as how ASF works. How has an debate grown from such clearly defined rules?

Jack of Blades
19-02-2008, 14:48
It's called RAW. Long ago, it meant Read As Written, but over time we were corrupted into reading it as Read As Wanted :)

EvC
19-02-2008, 16:04
I really don't understand this thread. The rules in the HE book are clear as how ASF works. How has an debate grown from such clearly defined rules?

For a start, it's not a problem with the wording in the High Elf book, it's a problem in the main rulebook. The problem there is a simple logic botch between two sections:
ASF rules: IF X then Y
Great weapons rules: If ?Y? then Z

Where X is two models with ASF fighting, Y is deciding who strikes first by initiative, ?Y? is initiative order and Z means great weapons go last. The crux is very simple... are Y and ?Y? the same thing? They have the same effect, but that does not mean they are the same thing... although they might be. Who are we to decide?

Soul of Iron
19-02-2008, 18:28
For a start, it's not a problem with the wording in the High Elf book, it's a problem in the main rulebook. The problem there is a simple logic botch between two sections:
ASF rules: IF X then Y
Great weapons rules: If ?Y? then Z

Where X is two models with ASF fighting, Y is deciding who strikes first by initiative, ?Y? is initiative order and Z means great weapons go last. The crux is very simple... are Y and ?Y? the same thing? They have the same effect, but that does not mean they are the same thing... although they might be. Who are we to decide?

Not to be rude, but when I read page 94, there is noting to argue about. The rule there is just as clear cut as in the HE book.

I don't understand where all these other arguments are coming from.

Jack of Blades
19-02-2008, 18:52
Me neither, rules bending I suppose. It's very clear...

EvC
19-02-2008, 19:49
Not to be rude, but if you can't be bothered to try and understand the other side then you have no place in this thread. Even though I agree with your interpretation Jack of Blades, to suggest that people who interpret the rules differently to you are bending the rules is very offensive.

Ravensmane
19-02-2008, 21:39
I get the feeling that there are a lot of people having the idea of powerfists from 40k stuck in there head for this one...
Where a powerfist lowers initiative to 1 Great weapons dont lower initiative...
So if both sides have ASF you would use there initiative...
Oh and heres a thought if they both have ASF wouldnt it go on to who charged....???

SuperBeast
19-02-2008, 23:08
Oh and heres a thought if they both have ASF wouldnt it go on to who charged....???
No, because ASF supercedes charging - the rule itself states so.
So you then go to initiative order, which is where ASL comes in.
ASL only has any effect on a turn where you didn't charge though.

So if the ASL unit charged, then it is initiative comparison then a dice-roll if equal.
If the ASL unit did not charge, then the ASL penalty comes into effect and they will strike last when compared to ASF units.
If other units are ASF AND ASL, then you wind up at the dice-roll/previous winners decider.

(This of course depends on whether you believe 'compare initiative' from the ASF rules is the same as 'initiative order' from the ASL rules.)

Either way, charging has no effect on ASF, either for or against.

Yehoshua
19-02-2008, 23:29
There's not a tremendous amount of reason to believe that.

For one, it just doesn't make real-world sense (admittedly, not unusual or terribly persuasive in WHFB), and more importantly, charging does matter in regard to normal and Strike Last combat resolution.

Given how sketchily written ASF is, I think that the "Chargers always strike first language" in the other two sections is supposed to have a greater effect.

SuperBeast
20-02-2008, 00:12
There's not a tremendous amount of reason to believe that.

For one, it just doesn't make real-world sense (admittedly, not unusual or terribly persuasive in WHFB), and more importantly, charging does matter in regard to normal and Strike Last combat resolution.

Given how sketchily written ASF is, I think that the "Chargers always strike first language" in the other two sections is supposed to have a greater effect.
Ok, lengthy re-read...

ASF states you always strike first before models who charged and regardless of initiative.
If you hit an ASF vs. ASF situation, then "use the models' Initiative to determine who strikes first (roll a dice in case of same initiative)." BRB p.94

The only section of the BRB that tells you how to use initiative to determine strike order is page 34, "Who strikes first?"; initiative order is highest strikes first, with chargers going first of all.


The ASL rule, page 55, first paragraph;
"Troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last during close combat where they would otherwise strike in Initiative order."
It also states "..charging troops always strike first rather than in initiative order."

In the case of ASF v ASF, you strike in initiative order. (page 94)
ASL specifically states that when doing so, you strike last. (page 55)
Bear in mind this only applies vs. other ASF units; an ASF/ASL unit will still always strike before non-ASF units because the initiative order check (and therefore the ASL penalty) is not used.

The fact that ASF states you go straight to the inititaive check as a tie-break is the problem, as you bypass the priority of chargers as laid out on page 34; if you're comparing initiative, you've already gone past the point of checking who charged to determine order; the comment at the end of the ASL rules confirms that charging is outside the Initiative order, rules-wise.
/brain hurts

Ravensmane
21-02-2008, 14:44
I think that one problem is that people are over reading rules...
RAW...would make you use the ASF rule to the letter then "if both sides have ASF you would use there initiative" and thats it,

xragg
21-02-2008, 16:48
First off, this was originally a question that involved Waagh! The extra move that Waagh! tends to provide counts as a charge. A charge is not ASF, it is merely strikes first. ASF will always outrank strikes first.

Second, great weapons never use initiative, and cause the player to strike last with a couple exemptions. The only time GWs use initiative is to break a tie with another GW. The only time GWs dont strike last is when charging or ASF.

Overall, the order of attacking is:
1. ASF
2. Strikes first (charging)
3. Initiative
4. Strikes last

If any of these steps result in a tie, then the tie breaker is:
A. Initiative
B. Who won combat last round
C. d6 roll off

If 2 units both have ASF and GWs, they tie at step one. They then would compare initiatives, still tied. Then who won last round; followed by a d6 roll off if needed.

If 2 units both have ASF, one with GWs and one hand weapons, they again tie at step one. They would then compare initiatives, where hand weapons would win since GWs dont use initiatives unless comparing against other GWs (strike last).

If 1 unit of GWs charges a unit of ASF GWs, the ASF GWs go first.

*pg 34, Troops who have charged ... automatically strike first.
**Always strikes first is a special rule, not a part of charging. pg 94 Models always strike first in CC ... before models that have charged ... regardless of initiative. (then it describes how to break ties exactly the same as it does earlier in the book)

I really dont see where the debate is here unless there is something else people are arguing over.

MalusCalibur
21-02-2008, 17:46
First off, this was originally a question that involved Waagh! The extra move that Waagh! tends to provide counts as a charge. A charge is not ASF, it is merely strikes first. ASF will always outrank strikes first.

Second, great weapons never use initiative, and cause the player to strike last with a couple exemptions. The only time GWs use initiative is to break a tie with another GW. The only time GWs dont strike last is when charging or ASF.

Overall, the order of attacking is:
1. ASF
2. Strikes first (charging)
3. Initiative
4. Strikes last

If any of these steps result in a tie, then the tie breaker is:
A. Initiative
B. Who won combat last round
C. d6 roll off

If 2 units both have ASF and GWs, they tie at step one. They then would compare initiatives, still tied. Then who won last round; followed by a d6 roll off if needed.

If 2 units both have ASF, one with GWs and one hand weapons, they again tie at step one. They would then compare initiatives, where hand weapons would win since GWs dont use initiatives unless comparing against other GWs (strike last).

If 1 unit of GWs charges a unit of ASF GWs, the ASF GWs go first.

*pg 34, Troops who have charged ... automatically strike first.
**Always strikes first is a special rule, not a part of charging. pg 94 Models always strike first in CC ... before models that have charged ... regardless of initiative. (then it describes how to break ties exactly the same as it does earlier in the book)

I really dont see where the debate is here unless there is something else people are arguing over.


This analysis is the correct one. The 'Waagh' spell does not grant ASF, it is a charge, so in the original example, the Swordmasters strike first.

In a real ASF vs ASF situation, those with Great Weapons would strike after those who did not, since by 'striking in Initiative order', the normal striking order procedure is resumed: i.e. the two ASF's cancel each other out and the respective units' striking order is determined in the usual fashion.


MalusCalibur

Soul of Iron
21-02-2008, 20:09
In a real ASF vs ASF situation, those with Great Weapons would strike after those who did not, since by 'striking in Initiative order', the normal striking order procedure is resumed: i.e. the two ASF's cancel each other out and the respective units' striking order is determined in the usual fashion.

This is incorrect.

The rules for ASF are defined in the BRB on page 94. Regardless if the troops fighting are swinging GW's, flails, or yellow fin tuna, in a ASF vs ASF scenario compare initiatives to see whom strikes first, dice off when initiative are equal.

I really don't know where you guys are getting this GW mess. What the troops are armed with does not come into account with the ASF rule.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
21-02-2008, 20:20
It goes by initiative. Elves armed with gw are the same as w hand weapons. This being said they cant take shields or anything of that sort.

MountainMammoth
21-02-2008, 20:45
In the BRB it states under ASF that the units with ASF will strike first (duh) and if two units with ASF fight, go by initiative. The ASL rule (great weapon special rule along with +2 strength and uses two hands) says anytime you strike in iniative order (read: when you have two units fighting who happen to both have ASF) the unit armed with great weapons strikes last (you could say they all strike at initiative 0 but this is only conceptual tool and doesn't affect their actual I value for any other purpose). By this chain of reasoning combat order goes like this: units with any variant of ASF in initiative order, units with great weapons & ASF (all strike last among ASFers but before everyone else, you dice off if more than one is in combat, as they both strike at the same time, ie if Dancing gweapon Grave Guard had charged Swordmasters you would dice for init each turn since they both stike at the same relative iniative value or possition with in the turn, last for great weapons, again look at the RAW under the weapons section, with the ASF allowing them to go before anyone else who doesn't have ASF, they go before because the aren't compairing initiative with such troops and thus their gweapons don't get in the way), dogs of war pikemen (their special rule states they go first except when ASF is involved), chargers (who don't have always strike first, dice off if both sides have chargers, ie over run+ new chargers), normal units in initiative order, all not ASF great weapon swingers (go by who won last round of combat, dice off if tied), zombies (until the new rules are legal which may or may not be now). I am sorry to anyone who may find their swordmasters, chracians, or cheese-eating str 6 generals hampered by this, but it is the most fair (gweapons should have some penalty for the str +2) and correct (more imporantly)application of all the rules as written.

MountainMammoth
21-02-2008, 20:50
No, all elves are not counted as armed with hand weapons. It clearly states in the high elf list that Swordmasters and white lions are armed with great weapons (i don't think Khorhil is but that is another ball of wax). Thus all of the special rules for great weapons apply.

Soul of Iron
21-02-2008, 20:55
The rule in the HE book also says that all elves have the ASF rule regardless of what they are armed with.

theunwantedbeing
21-02-2008, 20:59
Yes but if armed with a great weapon against another model with ASF, they will fight after the other model as the great weapon makes them fight after other things when they revert to using initiutive to compare to see who fights first.

It goes,
ASF in10
everywhere inbetween
ASF in1
ASF with great weapon and in10
everywhere inbetween
ASF with great weapon and in1
Charging
In10
everything inbetween
In1
Strikes last In10
Strikes last In1

Soul of Iron
21-02-2008, 21:06
Please show me on page 94 under ASF where it even refers to weapons? That rule is complete, no other rules in the book apply in this situation.

It looks like you guys are just seeing what you want to see.

MountainMammoth
21-02-2008, 21:09
It is true that SoA gives you ASF no matter what you are armed with, but it doesn't allow you to ignore the rules of ASF nor does it strip you weapon of its innate rules like a magic weapon rune would. If the latter were the case you would be able to take an item in your off hand (shield) and would also not benifit from the +2 str. Either your great weapon has all of its rules or none, and it is definately not yours to choose which rules you to take based on what pleases you.

theunwantedbeing
21-02-2008, 21:10
The bit you are missing is where it says "ASF vs ASF goes down to initituive.
This is the key bit.
As when armed with a great weapon, whenever you would use your initiutive to determine who strikes first, you who are armed with a great weapon will go last.

The rule isnt in the ASF bit as it doesnt need to be there.
The rule is in the great weapons bit under the "strikes last" rule.

So we cannot show you on page 94 I am afraid, but look to page 54(or 55 I think) and you'll see what we are on about.

Soul of Iron
21-02-2008, 21:11
Wow.

Whatever guys. I can see why the others left this thread.

MountainMammoth
21-02-2008, 21:11
the death spell that give a -3 to your leadership but isn't mention in the psycology section or under break tests, so does it apply? If a rule is pertenant it should be applied whether or not it hurt you to think it

DrDogmeat
21-02-2008, 22:36
this is a major question question isn't it, we've had the same problem in my local gw

kroq'gar
21-02-2008, 23:01
What on earth is the point of giving an elf lord a halberd if grt weapons dont factor into an asf vs asf?

shutupSHUTUP!!!
22-02-2008, 00:36
The halberd is marginally cheaper :rolleyes:. The great weapon for HE characters is twice as expensive as other normal weapons, when normally all options are equally priced.

SuperBeast
22-02-2008, 01:28
Wow.

Whatever guys. I can see why the others left this thread.

Well, by your logic the rule book would need to be published in volumes, in order to restate every rule variation where needed.

I'm not going to restate what's already been said.

If you've genuinely read this thread properly and still can't understand the merit of both arguments, then feel free to leave.

Ravensmane
22-02-2008, 08:45
1st off Great weapons vs Halberds...if your dude is sat on a mount then they are both the same +1 Strength, and the Halberd being cheaper would be the better option...

Ok this thread does seam to be going on a bit for no reason...

Read the rules page 94..."If fighting another model with the same special rule, use the models Initiative to determine who strikes first (roll a dice in case of same Initiative)."

Does it say if fighting another model with same special rule use the weapon they are armed with rule, No, does it say if fighting another model with the same special rule decide by who charged, No...

ASF is a skill...so if a swordmaster has ASF with a great weapon and faces a Grave Guard who has this skill because of magic or the such like, would the swordmaster loose his skill, would he forget the years of training that he has spent in honing his skill with a two handed great weapon....NO...!!!

The rule on page 94 is clear as a bell...
What people seam to be doing is thinking that a great weapon effects the Initiative of a model like a power fist, it doesn't, it makes the model stike last but is then is over written by ASF, if facing another model with ASF they don't loose the skill...

The other day I saw a post which said..."Raw...read as written has been changed to read as wanted"...

SuperBeast
22-02-2008, 09:23
1st off Great weapons vs Halberds...if your dude is sat on a mount then they are both the same +1 Strength, and the Halberd being cheaper would be the better option...

Ok this thread does seam to be going on a bit for no reason...

Read the rules page 94..."If fighting another model with the same special rule, use the models Initiative to determine who strikes first (roll a dice in case of same Initiative)."

Does it say if fighting another model with same special rule use the weapon they are armed with rule, No, does it say if fighting another model with the same special rule decide by who charged, No...

ASF is a skill...so if a swordmaster has ASF with a great weapon and faces a Grave Guard who has this skill because of magic or the such like, would the swordmaster loose his skill, would he forget the years of training that he has spent in honing his skill with a two handed great weapon....NO...!!!

The rule on page 94 is clear as a bell...
What people seam to be doing is thinking that a great weapon effects the Initiative of a model like a power fist, it doesn't, it makes the model stike last but is then is over written by ASF, if facing another model with ASF they don't loose the skill...

The other day I saw a post which said..."Raw...read as written has been changed to read as wanted"...
That's quite arrogant, as you obviously assume you're the one reading it correctly.
Ok...
1, it's not a swordmaster. Realism doesn't come into it, and leads to madness.
2, ASF says that in a tie, you use initiative or roll a die.
3, ASL says when using initiative, you strike last.
There is no tie in that case, because the rule for the weapon dovetails into the rule for the model.
A swordmaster would still ASF vs. models without ASF if that is the case.
The initiative of the swordmaster isn't altered, it's ignored.
4, this discussion is simply about whether or not the initiative comparison of ASF qualifies as an initiative comparison for the purposes of ASL.

To my reading, there is no distinction between the two. That is what I want clarification of.

Yehoshua
22-02-2008, 11:25
I'm just glad that no one plays high elves at my GW.

I'd pop a brain vessel.

Ravensmane
22-02-2008, 12:44
That's quite arrogant, as you obviously assume you're the one reading it correctly.
Ok...
1, it's not a swordmaster. Realism doesn't come into it, and leads to madness.
2, ASF says that in a tie, you use initiative or roll a die.
3, ASL says when using initiative, you strike last.
There is no tie in that case, because the rule for the weapon dovetails into the rule for the model.
A swordmaster would still ASF vs. models without ASF if that is the case.
The initiative of the swordmaster isn't altered, it's ignored.
4, this discussion is simply about whether or not the initiative comparison of ASF qualifies as an initiative comparison for the purposes of ASL.

To my reading, there is no distinction between the two. That is what I want clarification of.

Ok if the rule says
"If fighting another model with the same special rule, use the models Initiative (counting charges and weapons) to determine who strikes first (roll a dice in case of same Initiative)."

But it doesn't...if two unit with ASF are in combat and one has hand weapon and shield and the other had Great Axes it still doesn't make any different as by READING the rule all you would do is open your army book and check initiative on you stat line...simple...

I'm not being arrogant, it just to me there is no other way off reading the rule, they dont loose the ASF rule by fighting someone also with ASF...

Atrahasis
22-02-2008, 12:54
No, they don't lose the ASF rule.

Nor do they lose the "Strikes Last" rule, which is what you're attempting to make happen.

Lord Zarkov
22-02-2008, 12:59
The problem is that Great Weapons then state that the models 'strike last if they would otherwise strike in Initiative order'. ASF indicates to 'use Initiative' if two ore more units have ASF so then, as you are now resolving the ASF units in Initiative order, the Strikes Last rules kicks in. Note that as the ASF unit are only striking in Initiative order in relation to other ASF units they will still strike before non ASF units.

It all hinges however on whether 'use Initiative' equals 'in Initiative order'

Atrahasis
22-02-2008, 13:01
It all hinges however on whether 'use Initiative' equals 'in Initiative order'It would be plumbing the depths of obtuseness to suggest that a mechanism that results in Initiative-order-striking is not resolving attacks in Initiative order.

Ravensmane
22-02-2008, 13:08
I don't read it as Initiative order...it says use Initiative...
The more I think of this the more I come back to the idea of ASF being a skill and if you use Strikes last rule then you are saying that they have lost this skill, rune, magic spell or what ever comes up...

Ravensmane
22-02-2008, 13:19
Also I will add...

Models with this special rule always strike first in close combat, even before models that have charged that turn and "regardless" of initiative,

So a model with ASF is always striking 1st, which over rights striking last, initiative is no longer used...if however they are going against a model with the ASF rule then you use the Models Initiative to see who strikes 1st...

If the rule was ment to include weapons that effect Initiative then wouldnt it stand that if one model charged then that model would go 1st...???

They haven't set up a peck order on whats happens, its a simple rule to keep the game running...

Atrahasis
22-02-2008, 13:25
I don't read it as Initiative order...it says use Initiative...Ok.

So lower initiative goes first yeah?

I mean "1" means you go "1st", right?

How do you know how to use Initiative to determine striking order without using the rules for Initiative order?

Ravensmane
22-02-2008, 13:31
Because ASF is "regardless" of initiative,
As much as I say you don't prove that you do...

Atrahasis
22-02-2008, 13:41
What? Little in that post makes sense, much less answers the point I raised.

blurred
22-02-2008, 15:23
Atrahasis is correct. Both sides have ASF which results in using initiative order which results in using the rule of ASL. Case closed. :rolleyes:

xragg
22-02-2008, 20:00
The problem is that Great Weapons then state that the models 'strike last if they would otherwise strike in Initiative order'. ASF indicates to 'use Initiative' if two ore more units have ASF so then, as you are now resolving the ASF units in Initiative order, the Strikes Last rules kicks in. Note that as the ASF unit are only striking in Initiative order in relation to other ASF units they will still strike before non ASF units.

It all hinges however on whether 'use Initiative' equals 'in Initiative order'

pg 4, "In close combat, Initiative dictates the order in which creatures strike..."

That pretty much ties the terms 'use Initiative' and 'in Initiative order' together. Some are just really trying to stretch the grammar and bend rules just because every minor detail is not rewritten in exact language each and every time.

Ravensmane
22-02-2008, 20:30
Thats a fair point and I agree as you have to use Initiative to find out who strikes 1st any way at this point, the question is does strike last now kick in or has it gone out of the window because of ASF...???

theunwantedbeing
22-02-2008, 20:42
Strikes last kicks in whenever initiutive is used to determine who strikes first.
As per the strikes last rule on page 55.

lparigi34
23-02-2008, 12:05
Well, IMHO this is clearly written in the rules (which is contradictory to the length of this thread).

"...always strike last during cc where they would otherwise strike in Initiative order"

So when ASF w/HW vs ASF w/GW => Go to Initiative order.

Once using Initiative order and being a GW present in the combat the ASL rule kicks in.

Avian
23-02-2008, 12:38
Strikes last kicks in whenever initiutive is used to determine who strikes first.
As per the strikes last rule on page 55.
That leaves you with no way of determining who goes first of two models with ASF and great weapons, because as soon as you try to compare their initiative values to work out strike order, both immediately revert to going last.

So comparing initiative values to resolve strike order CANNOT be "fighting in initiative order", because it is self-contradictory. Thus having a great weapon or not makes no difference when you are entitled to strike first.

Atrahasis
23-02-2008, 13:34
Only if you ignore the clearly laid out procedure in Strikes Last for what to do if both sides have great weapons, ie compare initiative, if tied last winner goes first, if no last winner dice off.

Seriously, why do people contstantly try to make this more complicated than it is? Read the rules and apply them, it's that simple.

Pelskwig
23-02-2008, 13:59
*fizzle*

*pop*

Yehoshua
23-02-2008, 14:10
Since this conversation shows no signs of ending...

I'm still agreeing with Atrahasis on this point, I really don't understand why so many of us want to go with such a restrictive and, dare I say, overly literal, reading of the rules.

As an aside (and along the same lines), I also still think it's arguable that charging ASF models should attack before non-charging ASF models, despite the fact that the ASF rules don't address this explicitly. That is, the ASF language that disregards charging doesn't apply to other ASF models, and the language of the standard striking rules as well as Strikes Last both state that chargers strike before other models.

lparigi34
23-02-2008, 17:20
Since this conversation shows no signs of ending...

I'm still agreeing with Atrahasis on this point, I really don't understand why so many of us want to go with such a restrictive and, dare I say, overly literal, reading of the rules.

As an aside (and along the same lines), I also still think it's arguable that charging ASF models should attack before non-charging ASF models, despite the fact that the ASF rules don't address this explicitly. That is, the ASF language that disregards charging doesn't apply to other ASF models, and the language of the standard striking rules as well as Strikes Last both state that chargers strike before other models.

And now this is going to be going on for another 100+ posts :p

Though Im with Atrahasis in this (and not that he is with me for the sole reason that he blatantly outposts me ;)), I think the charging issue gets totally superseded by the ASF rule so it cannot kick in again when resolving the order.

theunwantedbeing
23-02-2008, 17:43
ASF vs ASF says we must use our initiutive to determine who strikes first.(page 95)

Strikes last states that you go last when you would your initiutive to decide who fights.(page 55)

Yehoshua
23-02-2008, 18:41
Yes, yes.

You do see the internal inconsistency, right?

Case 1: Charging ASF model with initiative 3 is fighting non-charging ASF model with initiative 5.
Case 2: Charging ASF model with initiative 3 and great weapon is fighting non-charging ASF model with initiative 5.

In Case 1, the non-charging model goes first.
In Case 2, the charging model goes first (as per the second paragraph of the Strikes Last rules on p.55)

Admittedly, you can read that paragraph as only referring to combats not involving ASF models.
Why do that, however, when you can read it along with the basic initiative rules and ASF to reach an internally consistent set of initiative rules?

Atrahasis
23-02-2008, 19:48
No, there is no internal inconsistency.

Strikes Last does NOT allow chargers to go first - it is simply the case that Strikes Last does not normally kick in if there is a charger. ASF changes that. Charging has NO BEARING when ASF is involved.

In your second example, the non-charger goes first as he does not have a great weapon.

xragg
23-02-2008, 20:56
No, there is no internal inconsistency.

Strikes Last does NOT allow chargers to go first - it is simply the case that Strikes Last does not normally kick in if there is a charger. ASF changes that. Charging has NO BEARING when ASF is involved.

In your second example, the non-charger goes first as he does not have a great weapon.

Another way to say that, a model with ASF gains no benefit from charging.

Yehoshua
24-02-2008, 10:26
Yes, the ASF rules say to disregard charging and initiative, but clearly makes an exception for other models with ASF. The failure to mention charging should not be fatal to this line of reasoning; it certainly conflicts with the language in both of the other striking order sections.

Strikes Last: "[C]harging troops always strike first rather than in intitiative order."
If we're going to use the exception to the ASF rules to get to the Strikes Last rules, why shouldn't we use the exception in the Strikes Rules to get to charging?

Furthermore, the ASF rules do not explicitly or implicitly supersede the Who Strikes First? rules.
Those rules clearly state that chargers "automatically strike first," then go to initiative.
If we're going to consider "initiative" in the ASF rules as "initiative order", why shouldn't we refer to the sister caveat in "Who Strikes First?" that charging supercedes initiative order?

Ravensmane
24-02-2008, 12:35
One thing that I would like to point out is this...

Strikes Last...If fighting enemies who also suffer from the same penalty, they would use their respective Initiative to decide who is going to strike first...

Always Strikes First...If fighting another model with the same special rule, use the model's Initiative to determine who strikes first...

These two rules have the same way (if not worded the same) of seeing what happens if there is a tie with the rule...Use model's Initiative...

Strikes Last also says...Troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last during close combat where they would otherwise strike in Initiative Order...

Both these rules dont say Initiative order in the event of a tie,

People have say that some of us are over reading the rules or making the rules harder than what they are, but to be frank I cant see it being any easier than, if both have either ASF or ASL then use the Initiative to see who goes first, not use Initiative Order...

Yehoshua
24-02-2008, 13:08
We've already addressed why that's obtuse - the Strikes Last rules kick in whenever you "would otherwise strike in Initiative order."
The fact that Strikes last immediately proceeds to tell you to "use their respective Initiative" when dealing with two Strikes Last models further reinforces the idea that "Initiative order" and "use the models' Initiative" are the same thing.

xragg
24-02-2008, 13:45
Yes, the ASF rules say to disregard charging and initiative, but clearly makes an exception for other models with ASF. The failure to mention charging should not be fatal to this line of reasoning; it certainly conflicts with the language in both of the other striking order sections.

Strikes Last: "[C]harging troops always strike first rather than in intitiative order."
If we're going to use the exception to the ASF rules to get to the Strikes Last rules, why shouldn't we use the exception in the Strikes Rules to get to charging?

Furthermore, the ASF rules do not explicitly or implicitly supersede the Who Strikes First? rules.
Those rules clearly state that chargers "automatically strike first," then go to initiative.
If we're going to consider "initiative" in the ASF rules as "initiative order", why shouldn't we refer to the sister caveat in "Who Strikes First?" that charging supercedes initiative order?

Everywhere that I have read that tells you how to resolve ties use the same exact formula (Initiative, won combat last round, d6 off). This is under the Who Strikes First section, the Always Strikes First Section, and even under the Skaven Assassin rules (Initiative, d6 off). None of the tiebreakers ever mention to use charging to determine who wins a tiebreaker for ASF, because both are already in the same tier of 'striking first'. ASF just always trumps normal striking first.

Yehoshua
24-02-2008, 14:55
Xragg:

ASF doesn't explicitly use that formula (I think it should, but it's not stated there).

Uhm, of course none of the tiebrakers say that you use charging to determine who wins a tiebreaker for ASF; that's one of the main issues at hand.
However, as I said previously, Strikes Last does say that charging supercedes Strikes Last.

Finally, "ASF just always trumps normal striking first" is vague; it could mean exactly what I'm saying, it could mean a few other things.

theunwantedbeing
24-02-2008, 15:13
ASF vs ASF uses initiutuive.
Strikes last says, when using initiutive, you fight last.
Strikes last also says, in the event of both striking last, use initiutive again but dont count the strikes last this time.

ASF strikes before chargers.
So charging doesnt give any benefit to ASF(unless you have a weapon that says you dont fight last when charging...great weapons dont actually say this)

So it is entirely possible for a great weapon armed ASF model that is charging another great weapon armed ASF model, to fight last despite charging...as they have a lower initiutive value.

It seems that great weapon armed troops dont get to ignore the strikes last penalty when using ASF to determine who fights first against another ASF model though, simply as charging has no say in who fights first.

Correct?

Yehoshua
24-02-2008, 15:32
Well, Strikes Last also says: "Note that troops that charge will still strike first in the initial turn of close combat, as charging troops always strike first rather than in Initiative order."

ASF doesn't directly speak to this, but it does say: "Models with this special rule always strike first in close combat, even before models that have charged that turn and regardless of initiative."

Now, that's an absolute statement, and if that's all it said, we wouldn't have this problem, as it would in fact be a self-contained rule.

However, when it goes on to say:
"If fighting another model with the same special rule, use the models' Initiative to determine who strikes first. . . .", we are led to refer to the Strikes Last rules.

Here's the nub for the point: does "always strikes first in close combat, even before models that have charged that turn and regardless of initiative" modify/supercede the Strikes Last rules (and the Who Strikes First? rules) that say "charging troops always strike first rather than in Initiative order"?

Arguably, it doesn't. The only reason we refer to Strikes Last when dealing with ASF models is if ASF hasn't already resolved the question. That is, we've moved down the flowchart from the ASF rules, on to Strikes Last, because ASF didn't decide the issue.

I don't think that the above-quoted ASF language convincingly reaches into the Strikes Last rules to prevent ASF models charging with great weapons and initiative 3 from going before ASF models with initiative 5 that are not charging.

theunwantedbeing
24-02-2008, 15:35
What part of "if using the mdoels initutive to determine who will strike first, you strike last" do you not understand from the strikes last rule?

Yehoshua
24-02-2008, 16:10
I understand it perfectly.

The part where it says that "charging troops always strike first rather than in initiative order", is, again, the salient issue.

And it's initiative, not inituitive.
It's certainly not an intuitive spelling, I'll give you that.

SuperBeast
24-02-2008, 17:30
Models who charged do indeed strike first, instead of striking in initiative order.

This is not a 'trump', it is a sequential position.
Charging does not ignore initiative in the sense that it doesn't apply; it 'ignores' it because, as set out in "Who strikes first", charging strikes before you even consider initiative.

ASF creates a higher precedent strike order.
In the case of a tie, initiative is used.
Charging has no effect, because charging is outside of initiative order, not part of it.

ASL does "state" chargers strike first, but just as ASL dovetails into ASF to alter strike order, ASF dovetails into ASL and overrides the 'chargers strike first', as we have already moved past charge order to get to this point.

Yehoshua
24-02-2008, 19:14
It's not "in case of a tie," it's "model[s] with the same special rule".

Also, I don't believe you mean "charge order"; the order of charges is essentially irrelevant in this area; it's whether a model is charging or not that is important.

There's no support for the conception that ASF affects Strikes Last, or that we should ignore the charging status of models.

Look, just compare the language in Strikes Last:
"Troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last during close combat where they would otherwise strike in Initiative order."
"[C]harging troops strike first rather than in Initiative order."

You're telling me that "where they would otherwise" is not functionally identical to "rather than"?

SuperBeast
24-02-2008, 20:06
It's not "in case of a tie," it's "model[s] with the same special rule".

Also, I don't believe you mean "charge order"; the order of charges is essentially irrelevant in this area; it's whether a model is charging or not that is important.

There's no support for the conception that ASF affects Strikes Last, or that we should ignore the charging status of models.

Look, just compare the language in Strikes Last:
"Troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last during close combat where they would otherwise strike in Initiative order."
"[C]harging troops strike first rather than in Initiative order."

You're telling me that "where they would otherwise" is not functionally identical to "rather than"?

I believe so, yes.
Chargers strike before initiative order. They do not 'ignore' it, they circumvent it by virtue of charging.
The "who strikes first" rules in the BRB state as much.
That is how ASL weapons function; you strike first when charging because you are charging, NOT because you are using ASL weaponry.

ASF creates a strike order that precedes charging; in the case of a tie, you use initiative order to determine who strikes first.

As ASF requires initiative order, you ignore charging, because charging is outside of initiative order; in other words, it does not convey any advantage whatsoever when using initiative to determine strike order, which is what ASF specifies as a tie breaker.

You do not 'lose' your charge bonus overall, however.
You will still strike before initiative order for troops without ASF.

As the ASL rules state, when using initiative order, you strike last. Charging has no effect on this, as ASF has specified using initiative order to tie-break.
So, as you are using initiative, you will strike last versus the ASF unit you are trying to resolve the tiebreak with.

Atrahasis
24-02-2008, 21:04
Altogether too much time on my hands:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8576/strikingordernd1.png

Jonke
24-02-2008, 21:30
"[C]harging troops strike first rather than in Initiative order."

Can you give a page reference for this? 'Cause where I'm reading in my brb the bold part doesn't exist.

theunwantedbeing
24-02-2008, 22:00
That'll be page 55 under strikes last, although the more useful reference would be page 34 where it's initially stated as a rule.

Yehoshua
24-02-2008, 22:48
Superbeast, the forum ate my reply, here's a summary:

I'm not saying that chargers ignore initiative order. I'm saying that your proposition would ignore charging status in regards to ASF.

Your argument is that charging, unlike Strikes Last, is "outside of" normal initiative. Thus, under your interpretation, charging becomes irrelevant as to ASF models.

This conclusion isn't borne out by the previously quoted language of Strikes Last and the Who Goes First? rules.

If we're going to say that "Initiative order" and "use the models' Initiative" are the same things (so as to apply Strikes Last), it's hard to say with a straight face that "where they would otherwise" is not functionally identical to "rather than."

Atrahasis, thanks for the flowchart; perfect explanation of Variant B (as I'll call it) initiative rules. For the purposes of further discussion, I hope everyone will indulge me if I call the "self-contained rule" position Variant A, while I call the "unified initiative theory" (which I'm supporting) Variant C.

Just to restate - I don't think any of us - Variant A, B, or C - are actually "wrong." Given how vague the rules are, and that we are lacking any further input from GW, I don't think there is a "right" answer. I just doubt the ability of Variant A or Variant B to be logically consistent (not that GW rules always are - but they tend to be).

SuperBeast
25-02-2008, 00:10
I'm not saying that chargers ignore initiative order. I'm saying that your proposition would ignore charging status in regards to ASF.
I agree with you.


Your argument is that charging, unlike Strikes Last, is "outside of" normal initiative. Thus, under your interpretation, charging becomes irrelevant as to ASF models. This conclusion isn't borne out by the previously quoted language of Strikes Last and the Who Goes First? rules.
It is.
Page 34, "Who strikes first"
"To represent this, combatants strike blows in a strict order
Troops who have charged automatically strike first.
Otherwise, all blows are struck in strict order of Initiative (I). Combatants with a higher intiative strike first..."

Page 55, "Strikes last"
"Note that troops that charge will still strike first in close combat, as charging troops always strike first, rather than in Initiative order."
Neither of those sentences contradict. In fact, they compliment each other.
There you go. Charging has no effect on initiative order. It happens BEFORE initiative order.

If we're going to say that "Initiative order" and "use the models' Initiative" are the same things (so as to apply Strikes Last), it's hard to say with a straight face that "where they would otherwise" is not functionally identical to "rather than."

They are entirely separate, because of ASF.

Page 94, "Always Strikes First"
"Models with this special rule always strike first in close combat, even before models that have charged that turn and regardless of Initiative."
So we are dealing with an exception to the normal strike order rules, because according to page 34, chargers always strike first.
Which is your "rather than". "Models who charged strike first rather than in initiative order...". But ASF states in the first sentence that it precedes charging...

"If fighting another model with the same special rule, use the models' Initiative to determine who strikes first."
Very important note here; "use the models' initiative". NOT "use the normal strike order".
THIS is your "where they would otherwise".
Charging has not, does not and never will have ANY effect on initiative order.
As page 34 states, chargers strike first before initiative is even considered, in the normal run of things.
As we are dealing with an exception to the normal rules, we follow the special rules.
The special rules state you compare initiative, which (hopefully) I've already explained isn't affected by charging.
As you are comparing initiative, you will strike last.

Yehoshua
25-02-2008, 11:23
I'm not saying that Who Strikes First? and the Strikes Last paragraph on charging contradict each other; I'm arguing that they support my point and contradict your argument.
They imply that, like Strikes Last, charging supercedes Initiative-based determination (though charging supercedes Strikes Last). In this way, both Strikes Last and charging "affect" Initiative-based determination; they supercede it.

If "use the models' Initiative" is not "Initiative order", we're back at Variant A.
The only reason Variant B applies Strikes Last to ASF is because of the conclusion that those two phrases are the same - ASF says "use the models Initiative" and Strikes Last only applies to troops "where they would otherwise strike in Initiative order."

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 11:47
Saying that using Strikes Last means that you MUST take heed of charging is like saying you MUST roll to hit in order to roll to wound simply because that is the normal order of things.

Yes, there is a hierarchy of effects that influence who strikes first. However, the rules are such that steps in teh hierarchy can be skipped; ASF/SL does just that with charging.

Yehoshua
25-02-2008, 12:16
I didn't say that "you MUST" take heed of charging.
I just think that Variant C is more consistent and is within the plausible interpretations of the rules (just as Variant A and B are, I might add).

Furthermore, Strikes Last doesn't skip charging; the Strikes Last rules place charging more firmly in the hierarchy.

The language of ASF, for its part, does not convincingly tell us to disregard charging, except insofar as we should check the ASF status of the models before we check their charging status.

Separately, does it make any sense to you guys that two High Elf armies would fight without referring to charge-status in close combat? Obviously Warhammer rules aren't dependent on sense; but they do seem to be informed by it.

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 12:20
I could just as easily claim that the very existence of "Strikes Last" means that chargers get to compare initiative with ASF models.

Please don't make me.

SuperBeast
25-02-2008, 13:45
After reading, re-reading and then re-reading again, I am becoming ever more sure that my reading of the rules is correct; so I am left with the conclusion that I am not explaining myself clearly.
So I'm going to try the opposite approach here, and look at tie-breaks.

Combining the "Who strikes first" rules on page 34 with the "Always Strikes First" special rule, we have 3 'primary' rankings in the strike order hierarchy (nb. I have not included 'Zombies' as the fourth...): Always Strikes First
Charging
Initiative Order (Highest to lowest)
These rankings are entirely independent of each other. They do not affect each other in any way. There is no cross over, no assumed superiority or partial eligibility. You strike in the earliest ranking that your circumstance and rules allow.

Tie breaks for the primary rankings, as specified in the BRB;
Always Strikes First
Initiative Order
Roll a D6

Charging
Most recent charge
Initiative order
Roll a D6

Initiative Order (Highest to lowest)
Won previous round of combat
Roll D6

Each primary ranking has it's own method of resolving ties.
For example - although the mechanic is identical - the rules state that for charging and ASF, if initiative is a tie, then roll a D6.
Whereas the 'mundane' initiative order checks who won last combat before the D6 roll.
As I've said before, each ranking in the hierarchy is independent. If you are resolving a tie (because two or more units are present in any particular ranking) then you use the rules for that ranking ONLY.

So, for (I hope) the last time... charging has no effect on initiative order when used as a tie-break, because charging is only used ONCE to determine which ranking you start in.

If you charge, then you strike BEFORE 'mundane' initiative order, but after ASF. Regardless. Nothing has ANY effect on that sequence.

If you have ASF, then you attack in the ASF ranking. Whether or not you charged is irrelevant, because ASF has elevated you to a higher ranking than charging would have allowed you.

If you have GW, then anywhere you are required to compare initiative - whether in the mundane sequence or as a tie-break - you will strike last; or, to put another way, you lose the tie.

You still remain in the relevant primary ranking.
As such, charging ASF/ASL troops makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.
ASF is higher than charging, so they are subject to the tie-break conditions for ASF.
ASL doesn't affect their primary rank; it simply affects their tie-break results.

To assume charging has any relevance outside of mundane combat sequence has another connotation.

If 'initiative order' as a tie-break is intended to include 'chargers striking first', then you wind up in a permanent feed-back loop.
You have ASF and GW, and charge your ASF opponents.
You claim you strike first, because you charged, as backed up in the ASL rules.
He claims he strikes first because he has ASF which beats charging, and claims the initiative tie-break because you have ASF as well.
You point out that the ASL wording means you strike first because you charged, so there is no tie-break for initiative.
He claims the wording of ASF means that even though you charged, he strikes first, but as you have ASF as well.
You point out that the ASL wording...
..and so on.

If you can come up with a specific example that disproves the strike order or a rule/wording that negates it, please feel free.
Because I really, really can't think of one.

Yehoshua
25-02-2008, 13:45
Atrahasis (before Superbeast posted):

Bah, no. There's no question that non-ASF charging models go after ASF models, of course.

I think we've reached an impasse. If we're going to "use the models initiative" and still reach Strikes Last, I think it's pointless to ignore charging status.

You're effectively classifying the second paragraph of Strikes Last as referring only to the "Who Strikes First?" rules. Again, if we were going to take such a compartmentalized view of the rules of combat order, we would never reach Strikes Last from ASF in the first place.

Superbeast: Charging is not treated in the Rulebook the way you treat it. The Who Strikes First? section does not give an independent decision tree for charging; that's why I keep saying your treatment of charging as an entirely separate decision tree is unsupported.
Also, what do you mean by "most recent charge"?

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 13:53
Bah, no. There's no question that non-ASF charging models go after ASF models, of course.But the rules expressly state that chargers (ANY chargers) always strike first. Is that not ASF?

SuperBeast
25-02-2008, 14:02
Again, if we were going to take such a compartmentalized view of the rules of combat order, we would never reach Strikes Last from ASF in the first place.
I really don't see how?

ASF -> tie-break -> initiative order -> ASL rules apply

As I stated, The first sentence of ASF and the last sentence of ASL, without the rest of the rules, create an infinite regression of priority.
You are the one who is compartmentalizing, mate.

My strike order, and Atrahasis', and Draich's... NONE of them fall foul of the rules as a whole, let alone when you try to use individual sentences.

I just don't understand how you are not seeing this?


CHARGING HAS NO EFFECT ON INITIATIVE ORDER. EVER.
IT'S PRIORITY BONUS TAKES IT OUTSIDE OF INITIATIVE ORDER.
IF YOU ARE USING INITIATIVE AS A TIE-BREAK, THEN THE PRIORITY BONUS OF CHARGING HAS ALREADY BEEN USED TO LITTLE OR NO EFFECT.

Finnigan2004
25-02-2008, 14:04
But the rules expressly state that chargers (ANY chargers) always strike first. Is that not ASF?


Not when the always strike first rule states that "Models with this special rule always strike first in close combat, even before models that have charged that turn...". Main rulebook, pg. 94.

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 14:08
Are you suggesting that if an ASF model charges an ASF model, the non-charging ASF model goes first?

Finnigan2004
25-02-2008, 14:19
No, only stating that ASF obviously overrides charging, as stated in the rule. As to the rest of the debate, I think that it is obviously going in circles. I understand your point of view that you think it should be initiative order to resolve ASF vs. ASF, as I understand the other side that it is the initiative statistic. Personally, I think that your way makes more sense; however, I do have to admit that in the main rule book the use of "Initiative" (right down to the capital "I"), makes it appear to me that RAW would use the initiative stat. As one who is not too married to RAW on debateable topics, I'd be willing to play it either way, until an FAQ comes out.

theunwantedbeing
25-02-2008, 14:22
Thats exactly what they are sugguesting.
Charging has no effect on initiutive order, none whatsoever.
Strikes last however, does.

So an ASF model with a great weapon will strike after an ASF model without a great weapon, regardless of who charged.

Finnigan2004
25-02-2008, 14:25
Understood unwanted being; however, as I think the other side is arguing (way back probably), ASF overrides the great weapon. It also comes with it's own built in tie breaking method (initiative and dice off in a tie) that is written right into the rule. In the rule, this is the only tie breaker mentioned for ASF vs. ASF, and it is explicit. You really can argue it either way and go round and round because neither side listens to the other.

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 14:30
Not really Finnigan; the "ASF overrides SL" argument falls flat on its face because it depends on "use Initiative" being different from "in Initiative order", a difference that is impossible to establish because without "in Initiative order" we have no idea how to "use Initiative".

A point raised 20-odd posts ago and never addressed by the "other side".

Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-02-2008, 14:32
The High Elves, because their Speed of Asuryan rules are very clear and specific, allowing them to strike first even when charged and regardless of how they are equipped.

I highly recommend borrowing your opponent's book for long enough to check the rule for yourself.

Actually, where both units have ASF, you revert to normal initiative order, which does give Swordmasters a slight boost! This is not Speed of Asuryan itself, but the wording of the ASF rule in the book.

SuperBeast
25-02-2008, 14:32
Best example I can think of...
Grave guard with GW charge a unit of sword masters.
Whilst the GG charged, the swordmasters strike first as they have ASF.

No arguments there.

Now assume the GG have ASF courtesy of Vanhel's or the Corpse cart.

Both units have ASF, so strike in the ASF rank.
The fact the GG have charged is ignored, because we are now outside the 'mundane' strike sequence courtesy of ASF.
So we now compare initiative.
Swordmasters have the higher initiative, so normally would strike before the GG.
However, we are comparing initiative between two units armed with ASL weaponry, so 'both' strike last.
Simultaneous strikes are not possible, so we have a further tie courtesy of ASL.
ASL states that in the case of a tie caused by ASL, you go by previous winners (Not applicable in this case), initiative order, or roll a D6.
The swordmasters do indeed strike first.

At no point in that determination sequence has charging played any part, and no rules have been ignored or fudged to do so.

If you replace the GG with another unit of sword masters, then on the turn they charge, you roll a D6 to determine who strikes first, as they have same initiative for the purposes of the ASL tie-break.
Subsequent rounds, the previous winners will strike first, or you will again roll off if the previous round of combat was a draw (which in itself is not possible if there is a musician in one or both units).

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 14:38
you will again roll off if the previous round of combat was a draw (which in itself is not possible if there is a musician in one or both units).
If there's a musician in both then it's still a draw.

It's only not a draw if there are only musician(s) on one side of the combat.

Finnigan2004
25-02-2008, 14:42
Not really Atrahsis. For me, the use of capitalization when referring to initiative indicates to me that the rule is most likely referencing the statistic itself. As I said, I think that I like your interpretation better (it makes more sense), but from a RAW standpoint I sort of find both sides to have some weight. As to whether we know how to "use initiative", I would have to call strawman. We do know how to "use initiative"-- we compare the numbers and the highest number wins, then we dice off. As I said, this could go round and round, so I will probably opt out. Interesting debate, but I hope we see an FAQ to make it official.

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 14:48
You're still not seeing the problem with that interpretation - how do you use the Initiative stat without referencing the "Initiative order" rules?

Does lowest go first? Do we multiply them together and subtract 8 and whoever guesses closest goes to the shops for sherbet while his opponent rings GW?

Finnigan2004
25-02-2008, 15:01
Sigh, o.k.. Really last post. Honestly, no I do not Atrahasis. Here is a quick quiz to see if you know how to apply an initiative vs. initiative quiz. If I use my saurus warriors against chaos warriors and both have a hand weapon and shield, who goes first in the second round? I would be a gentleman and let my opponent go first because his initiative stat was higher, though many might try to argue whether higher or lower initiative is in fact better.

Atrahasis
25-02-2008, 15:07
The example you give isn't really addressing my point, since my point is about ASF vs ASF and the units int eh example don't have it, but...

The only reason you think allowing your opponent to go first is gentlemanly is because you're used to using "Initiative order". Thanks for proving my point :)

SuperBeast
25-02-2008, 15:10
Sigh, o.k.. Really last post. Honestly, no I do not Atrahasis. Here is a quick quiz to see if you know how to apply an initiative vs. initiative quiz. If I use my saurus warriors against chaos warriors and both have a hand weapon and shield, who goes first in the second round? I would be a gentleman and let my opponent go first because his initiative stat was higher, though many might try to argue whether higher or lower initiative is in fact better.

That's not a quiz, it's clearly covered by the rules.
Neither has charged, neither has ASF.
They strike in initiative order of highest - lowest.
If they had the same initiative, it would be determined by who won last round.

Many may well try and argue, which is what I'm beginning to realise from this thread...
But that doesn't stop the rules being the rules.

EvC
25-02-2008, 15:11
Sigh, o.k.. Really last post. Honestly, no I do not Atrahasis. Here is a quick quiz to see if you know how to apply an initiative vs. initiative quiz. If I use my saurus warriors against chaos warriors and both have a hand weapon and shield, who goes first in the second round? I would be a gentleman and let my opponent go first because his initiative stat was higher, though many might try to argue whether higher or lower initiative is in fact better.

So... basically, they'd fight in initiative order?

Ravensmane
25-02-2008, 17:50
At this point I think you need to agree to dis-agree and wait until this point comes up in a game and at that point it you can't agree dice off...
The rules seam clear to both sides and fit both sides arguments in the way they put there points over...

Yehoshua
25-02-2008, 17:57
Oh, definitely. I am surprised that the Variant B people seem so certain they're correct, right down to the use of giant red capitals.

That there's a sure-fire sign you've got everything sorted.

Finnigan2004
25-02-2008, 20:52
So... basically, they'd fight in initiative order?

Assuming that initiative order means that the higher initiative goes first yes, although some in this thread seem intent on arguing otherwise (or at least that we do not know whether higher or lower initiative wins when comparing stats). ;)

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin again guys? O.K., seriously, out for now because the two sides seem to be arguing at cross purposes and the debate has become somewhat pointless. Both sides have strong points, and the rule could be interpreted either way-- whether either is willing to admit it or not.

theunwantedbeing
25-02-2008, 20:59
How exactly do both sides have reasonable arguments though?

ASF vs ASF
go to initiutive values like the rule says
strikes last states that you go last when using initiutive values, go off initiutive in the case of both having that rule, the whoever won combat, then roll a dice.

The only way I can see that there is another way of looking at it is that the strikes last rule for whatever reason has no effect on ASF(although ASF makes note of ignoring initiutive and who charged, it does not allow you to ignore how you are armed).

So it is either
A. Great weapon armed ASF troops go after non-great weapon armed ASF troops
or
B. ASF only uses initiutive and ignores any weapon rules you may have.

B isnt really supported by the rules as far as I have been able to read from my english rulebook.

Am I missing something here?

SuperBeast
25-02-2008, 22:05
No, but then again I use big red letters, so what do I know? ;)

Option b requires that you ignore the ASL rules, despite the fact that there is no conflict.

Option a uses all applicable rules from combat, special rules and weapon rules.
Yet apparently both sides have equal merit...

Nurgling Chieftain
26-02-2008, 01:50
Ignoring a rule is not the same as finding it inapplicable.

SuperBeast
26-02-2008, 06:46
No, it certainly doesn't.
A rule is inapplicable if it has no effect, or has already been overridden.
Here, ASL is simply being ignored.

Unless 'use initiative order' =/= 'compare initiative'.
But that is being obtuse to the point of obstruction.

EvC
26-02-2008, 10:25
Assuming that initiative order means that the higher initiative goes first yes, although some in this thread seem intent on arguing otherwise (or at least that we do not know whether higher or lower initiative wins when comparing stats). ;)

Well imagine a situation with three different I values and ASF, e.g. High Elf Noble + Spearmen fighting ASF Grave Guard. You see who goes first with the higher initiative, then what do you do? You see who goes next with the higher initiative, and so on. It clearly is initiative order, I think you realise that... so then what else is there left to argue? if you accept it's initiative order, and you accept that great weapon troops go last when it's initiative order, there's only one conclusion. And yes, that conclusion does mean admitting you were wrong, but honestly, no-one will think any less of you.

Eigilb
26-02-2008, 19:13
ASF = ASF - Tier 1
Great Weapons < 2 Choppas - Tier 2
Initiative > Initiative - Tier 3

ASF = ASF - Tier 1
Weapon spec vs. Weapon spec - Tier 2
Initiative vs. Initiative - Tier 3
Dice off - Tier 4

Id go with this one anytime. It seems like the most reasonable and it takes all the rules in toaccount.

And the HE ASF rule dosnt state anything about what to do against other ASF units. The example above seems like a winner to me.