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knightime98
10-02-2008, 08:15
Can a damsel be not in the front rank of a unit of knights and still use magic items and cast spells?
How many breaks do these guys need.. Extra Characters, 3 wide for rank bonus, everyone is a champion, 2+AS, 5+Ward Save.... does it ever stop...
Just looking to see any weakness for this army at all ANYWHERE....
Talk about broke..

I did see on forgeworld the Ogre Rhinox Riders.. That is sick.. perhaps they could stand up against the Bret knights.. That's about it... I think Frenzied Khorne knights would tuck their tails under themselves, yelp, and run away.. It would only be fitting.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-02-2008, 08:35
Can a damsel be not in the front rank of a unit of knights and still use magic items and cast spells?Yes, when she's using the special rule wherein she's in the center of a lance formation. Note that her LOS is entirely blocked at that point (except to large targets and models on hills, of course), so many of her possible spells are less useful.

Ward.
10-02-2008, 08:46
Wait, did you just try to draw a conclusion between grail knights being tough and an entire army being broken?

For refernce the KOTBK will be able to run through them.

Griefbringer
10-02-2008, 08:49
Yes, when she's using the special rule wherein she's in the center of a lance formation. Note that her LOS is entirely blocked at that point (except to large targets and models on hills, of course), so many of her possible spells are less useful.

Correct. Notice that this only applies to lance formation (three models wide) and not if the knights are in any other formation.

SuperBeast
11-02-2008, 00:07
Just looking to see any weakness for this army at all ANYWHERE....

Try outmaneouvring, tying them up with swarms/unbreakable/whatever units, then flank charging them.

Brettonians are the bomb when they get the charge. After that, they're in real trouble.

Alathir
11-02-2008, 03:04
What is the purpose of this thread? Is there really any genuine rules question here or it is another 'bretonnia r teh brokez!!111' whinge thread?

Yes a Damsel can use items and cast spells from her place in the second rank, but her line of sight is reduced to zero - thus making many of her spells useless.

As Superbeast said, if you can outmanuever the Brets, you will be on the path to victory.

Milgram
11-02-2008, 06:02
Talk about broke..



guy, this week you are whining about broken brets in the rules forum, last week it was the broken orcs in the tactics forum...

ranting against armies has a special forum: the general discussion forum.

Nurgling Chieftain
11-02-2008, 06:19
Wait, he ranted about broken Orcs? I mean, Bretonnians I can understand, they tend to place high in tournaments and so forth, but complaining about Orcs is almost as bad as complaining about Dark Elves.

knightime98
11-02-2008, 07:34
Try outmaneouvring, tying them up with swarms/unbreakable/whatever units, then flank charging them.

Brettonians are the bomb when they get the charge. After that, they're in real trouble.
Yeah, like the Orcs have unbreakable snotlings.. BTW, there is not outflanking 5 units of knights in a 2K game... Good try...


guy, this week you are whining about broken brets in the rules forum, last week it was the broken orcs in the tactics forum...

ranting against armies has a special forum: the general discussion forum.
Well, I call a spade a spade.. The Brets are broken.. They have every advantage given to them with NO weaknesses.. Let me reiterate..
NO WEAKNESSES.. The only army that does not...


Wait, he ranted about broken Orcs? I mean, Bretonnians I can understand, they tend to place high in tournaments and so forth, but complaining about Orcs is almost as bad as complaining about Dark Elves.
Yes, I did - however you have not been given the full story..
Orcs - are broke (they got NERFED).. Yeah, one of my armies that I've had for 5 years and spent THOUSANDS of dollars collecting, painting, and slaving over. Now, they are useless..
Yes, The Bretonnians are broke.. Very Broke...
Take the Green Knight - Causes Terror and has NO draw back whatsoever.. You can only ever WIN victory points with this guy.. If he is killed, no problem he's back on next turn... You can kill him to your heart's content just to be back on the table turn after turn after turn... If that ain't broke then I don't know what is....
They can not lose if they are played correctly in every game.. That's what broke means. Either being able to win all games or almost always losing... Depending on the connotation of the poster..

Alathir
11-02-2008, 07:41
Yeah, like the Orcs have unbreakable snotlings.. BTW, there is not outflanking 5 units of knights in a 2K game... Good try...


Well, I call a spade a spade.. The Brets are broken.. They have every advantage given to them with NO weaknesses.. Let me reiterate..
NO WEAKNESSES.. The only army that does not...


Yes, I did - however you have not been given the full story..
Orcs - are broke (they got NERFED).. Yeah, one of my armies that I've had for 5 years and spent THOUSANDS of dollars collecting, painting, and slaving over. Now, they are useless..
Yes, The Bretonnians are broke.. Very Broke...
Take the Green Knight - Causes Terror and has NO draw back whatsoever.. You can only ever WIN victory points with this guy.. If he is killed, no problem he's back on next turn... You can kill him to your heart's content just to be back on the table turn after turn after turn... If that ain't broke then I don't know what is....
They can not lose if they are played correctly in every game.. That's what broke means. Either being able to win all games or almost always losing... Depending on the connotation of the poster..

You're complaining about the Green Knight?! Yes he can come back after you kill him (which isnt hard with the right tools) but if you do it enough its eventually on a freaking 6+. His drawback is that he cant be your general so your left with a crappy leadership 8 and he cant join units which denies one of your lances the extra hitting power of a Bretonnian lord.

Bretonnians have weaknesses - yes, they are easier to abuse than others - but they still have weaknesses (huge flanks, poor infantry, trouble dealing with any foe that can hold a charge, essentially unable to flee or refuse challenges, and they are susceptible to psychology).

Speaking in such sweeping, dramatic statements (with caps lock on) only serves to undermine any real argument you might have.

devolutionary
11-02-2008, 07:58
Fear is the mind killer. Stubborn makes me enormously sad. Elves of all flavours dance around Brets with disgusting ease. Artillery shreds us, despite the Ward. We MUST take a BSB. MUST. Minimum cost? over 100pts. We've got virtually no offensive magic. Our heroes have to be narrowly focused to have any real effect (expensive and limited). No fast cavalry or solid support units. Of course they can be cheesed - so can wood elvers, empire, dwarfs, etc...

Nurgling Chieftain
11-02-2008, 08:30
Wait, what? Funny, I can get a Bretonnian BSB for as little as 70. And "virtually no" offensive magic? Few Brets go in for a strong magic phase, but if they want it they can get it. 7/18 of their possible spells are damage dealers. Not the best by any stretch of the imagination, but not "virtually none", either; show up with a prophetess and three damsels and you'll throw some damage down I'm sure (10 levels of wizardry for 540 points!), plus have lots of dispel dice and MR whereever you want. I dunno where you're even getting the no fast cavalry or solid support units assertions from. I guess they entirely lack heavy infantry?

knightime98
11-02-2008, 08:37
Fear is the mind killer. Stubborn makes me enormously sad.
Not 20 Empire Greatswords that take 14 wounds from your charging Grail Knights w/ Banner of the Lady.. They last 2 rounds of combat tops..



Elves of all flavours dance around Brets with disgusting ease.

Well, I guess there is a use for elves after all. You have a well taken point here.



Artillery shreds us, despite the Ward.
Really, a S3 mortar scares you ? You have got to be kidding me..
Even a cannon might hit 3 guys then you get your 5+ward.. How is
artillery even remotely intimidating.. After all, the other side gets 2 turns to shoot before you are deep into their lines...



We MUST take a BSB. MUST. Minimum cost? over 100pts.
No not something that allows you break test rerolls..



We've got virtually no offensive magic.
Well perhaps now, I see only 1 weakness. I have never really thought
about their non existent magic phase.. This is true.



Our heroes have to be narrowly focused to have any real effect (expensive and limited).
Whose characters are not expensive? What precisely do you mean expensive anyhow.. 150 points for a paladin with some monster killing sword with KB?



No fast cavalry or solid support units. Of course they can be cheesed - so can wood elvers, empire, dwarfs, etc...
Are not Errant Knights Fast Cav? btw, since when do you need fast cav when your whole army is knights? They move 16" by themselves... How in the world is fast cav going to help.. You got Pegasus Knights that are Flying Cav... There worse!

@Alathir
The caps lock was not on.. I only expressed 4 words for the emphasis on those words. Which were and are the basis of my argument. I did not caps lock a sentence, 4 words. (Nerfed, No weaknesses, and the word Thousands) All used in context... How is that abuse?

Lexy
11-02-2008, 09:29
are you really complaining about brets when you play orcs&goblins?

come on, you might even have the best army for them.
dooomdiver, stonethrower, fanatics, wyvern, boltthrowers, giant, many large units, many fast units, chariots.
I'd have a blast with orcs and goblins against Brets, especially if I'd know I'd play them.

Maybe if you wouldn't try to see your armies weaknesses and Brets's strong points you might have time to think of tactics.

Take a wall of orcs in all sizes.
take a few units goblin wolf riders
take some warmachines
Take some mages ( almost forgot a bout them)
Use wolfriders to harass knights units and shoot, magic them to death.
Rest is simple.

Griefbringer
11-02-2008, 10:06
FWe MUST take a BSB. MUST. Minimum cost? over 100pts. No fast cavalry or solid support units.

Ahem, the minimum cost for Bretonnian BSB mounted on a barded warhorse is 74 points.

As for fast cavalry: mounted yeomen.

knightime98
11-02-2008, 10:19
dooomdiver, stonethrower, fanatics, wyvern, boltthrowers, giant, many large units, many fast units, chariots.


In order,
Rare, special, core upgrade, character upgrade, special, rare, various, various (and by many, you mean 2 boars and wolves - whereby wolves are useless against brets), and special.

Do you see a pattern here.. Specials and Rares and you only have so many..

Edit: Oh and yes, they Nerfed the Fanatics - you get your Armor save now.. How wonderful.. So, you're lucky to kill 2 knights for your 75pts of fanatics.... After armor and ward saves..

juample
11-02-2008, 10:25
Dont you think is better follow this tread in a better place guys? (i will participate but dont feel comfortable doing in here)

Alathir
11-02-2008, 12:31
I won't contribute in this thread until it is taken to a more suitable arena, explaining the value of fast cav. in an army of heavy cav is something that could take awhile.

Mercules
11-02-2008, 17:53
Can a damsel be not in the front rank of a unit of knights and still use magic items and cast spells?


Correct, which of course severely limits her LoS and limits the useful spells and items she can use. That would be the trade-off you seem to be complaining about being missing. That would be a total of 3 out of 12 possible spells that could be cast without LoS. :rolleyes: Game breaking.

Bac5665
11-02-2008, 18:37
Not to support this being in the wrong thread, but Brets are stupidly broken. The best advice I've seen to beat them have been to outmaneuver them. Outmaneuvering an all cav list is not possible for many lists, and for those that can, often the things doinging the outmaneuvering will bounce against Brets. Fast cav will be outnumbered, not have a standard, kill at most one knight and take a wound or two back. Then they run away. Infantry are just doomed. Stubborn heavy infantry has a chance, but assuming the Bret player is dumb enough to get an important knight unit caught against say temple guard is a bad assumption. Shooting can take Brets out, but tell me what Chaos in any form does, or VC? Saying just outmaneuver Brets is like saying just out shoot an Empire gunline.

Malorian
11-02-2008, 19:00
This is an example I like to use to show two points:

Army 1:

9 Kights of the realm w/ full command

Army 2:

10 men at arms

25 men w/ full command


The game: (Small unit is kept in front and to the side.)

Knights charge small unit. It either flees for a failed charge, or gets killed and the units moves up.

M@A charge:

6 attacks (hand weapon shield) 3 hit, 1.5 wound, .25 not saved (lets say none)

Knights and horses get 8 attacks, 5.3 hit, 2.7 wound, 1.3 not saved.

Knights get 4 CR (kill, 2 ranks, banner)
M@A get 5 CR (3 ranks, banner, outnumber)

What did we learn?

1. If charged bret knights lose

2. Bret peasants are good

Bac5665
11-02-2008, 19:16
Ah mathhammer. Yes, if the Bret player is stupid and charges the bait unit/allows itself to get baited in the first place/doesn't have 4-6 more KOTR units to charge the M@A unit/doesn't hold using extra character w/BSB. Those of us who are complaining about Brets know that you can kill a unit of KOTR. The problem is that there are more units of KOTR that kill my infantry in retaliation. Now, in the best case scenario, I have lost 2 units to the Bret's 1. Thats assuming that the Brets fled on the Break Check of a 7, which they are more likely to pass. In the meantime, I've not killed any KOTR in CC, so I don't have any VP accrued, and I get counter charge next round, and flee.

Mathhammer and pulled out scenarios are nice, but they happen within a battle and maneuvering around that combat will change everything. But Brets are better at the maneuvering, so given two players of EQUAL skill, the Bret play should win the movement phase. And thats the ball game in Warhammer, unless gunlines come into play.

Mercules
11-02-2008, 19:17
Not to support this being in the wrong thread, but Brets are stupidly broken. The best advice I've seen to beat them have been to outmaneuver them. Outmaneuvering an all cav list is not possible for many lists, and for those that can, often the things doinging the outmaneuvering will bounce against Brets. Fast cav will be outnumbered, not have a standard, kill at most one knight and take a wound or two back. Then they run away. Infantry are just doomed. Stubborn heavy infantry has a chance, but assuming the Bret player is dumb enough to get an important knight unit caught against say temple guard is a bad assumption. Shooting can take Brets out, but tell me what Chaos in any form does, or VC? Saying just outmaneuver Brets is like saying just out shoot an Empire gunline.

You don't have to be faster than them to out maneuver them. Getting them to hit a unit that can hold against them will be devastating to most Brets. Setting them up so that if they want to charge you they will be redirected into offering you a counter flank charge is very possible. Skirmishers are particularly good for this.

Stick a ranged unit behind a tarpit swarm that will angle the charge away from the ranged unit and the Brets are forced to weather a hail of ranged attacks one way or the other. Remember, Swarms do not block LoS so you can happily shoot over them while the Brets have to go through them to get to you.

Bac5665
11-02-2008, 19:27
@ Mercules
Your right, outmaneuvering them can be done. I'm not saying they're so broken that they will always win or that they can be beat in the right situation. I'm just saying that Bret's have more than their fair share of advantages and need a major nerf. Taking entirely KOTR is a massively difficult list to beat. And it takes advantage of the biggest, in my opinion, problem with Brets: even if I can outmaneuver 1 KOTR unit, there will be more coming. I don't know many armies that have a through away bait unit for each KOTR unit in a Bret list. And with out the bait units, the KOTR can dance around the remaining units.

Yes, a talented player can beat Brets. The problem comes when players of equal skill play and discover that Brets have a built in inherent advantage over most balanced, tournament ready lists.

Malorian
11-02-2008, 19:36
Don't forget the stalling method for stopping lots of lances.

-Move up your cav, then shoot/magic them to bits
-Bret player moves up so he can charge your cav, but ofviously far enough back so you can't charge him
-Move back cav 2-3 inches and shoot/magic them to bits
-Repeat

The problem with most armies is that they don't take a balanced army. A balanced army with magic/shooting/warmachines/cav/fast cav/infantry/scouts will stand an even chance against brets. Those armies that go all eggs in one basket have a lot of problems.

Equal skill bret vs equal skill opponent = equal game

theunwantedbeing
11-02-2008, 19:46
Bret's dont need nerfing....

You are not forced to stand upto a charge by bretonnians and can very easily redirect them with a cheap worthless unit you dont need. Plus there is almost no chance of that unit being big enough to make you panic if it flee's anyway due to the hitting power of the lance.

Lances have big flanks, and dont do very well when fighting to their flanks either...infact they do incredibly badly when fighting to their flanks.

You will go first against them.

They will always have a battle standard for you to capture.

Just like how DE players had to re-think their tactics vs the new ASF high elves, you need to re-think your tactics against a bretonnian army as sitting there expecting to hold them with your ranked 4+ save t3 squishy unit simply wont work.

Mercules
11-02-2008, 20:44
@ Mercules
I don't know many armies that have a through away bait unit for each KOTR unit in a Bret list. And with out the bait units, the KOTR can dance around the remaining units.

You don't need THAT many bait units. Part of the problem with a filled out lance is how long it is. Turning it at an angle and getting it into a failed charge will often clog up the way for other lances.

|||
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|||
|||

That is a lot of horseflesh and it gets in the way when angled the wrong way. You also don't have to throw away the bait unit. VC can summon up zombies at poor angles for the Bret player, bolster tarpit units and such, then move in their heavy hitters. Skaven can bait with Slaves and then rally them as they don't cause panic. Ogres have Gnoblars and Leadbelchers. Empire has Detachments. Lizardmen have skinks and Terradons and tons of magic. O&G can scare away Brets with Fanatics. Tomb Kings can tarpit or use things like their Skull Catapults. WE can run them in circles by going through terrain and harassing them. HE move faster and strike first. I'd love to see a Bret charge a ranked up unit of spearmen and expect to come out with better than an even shot. Dwarves can shoot Brets and force them to come play on their terms and can hold steady against a Bret charge. I see Chaos as having the biggest issue with Brets but I see that as more of a Rock-Paper-Scissors thing.

knightime98
12-02-2008, 08:59
Not to support this, but Brets are stupidly broken. The best advice I've seen to beat them have been to outmaneuver them. Outmaneuvering an all cav list is not possible for many lists, and for those that can, often the things doinging the outmaneuvering will bounce against Brets.
Bingo!


This is an example I like to use to show two points:

Army 1:

9 Kights of the realm w/ full command

Army 2:

10 men at arms

25 men w/ full command


The game: (Small unit is kept in front and to the side.)

Knights charge small unit. It either flees for a failed charge, or gets killed and the units moves up.

M@A charge:

6 attacks (hand weapon shield) 3 hit, 1.5 wound, .25 not saved (lets say none)

Knights and horses get 8 attacks, 5.3 hit, 2.7 wound, 1.3 not saved.

Knights get 4 CR (kill, 2 ranks, banner)
M@A get 5 CR (3 ranks, banner, outnumber)

What did we learn?
We learned how Knights of the Realm shouldn't charge bait units that won't hurt them!
We learned that a unit of Kotr should always have a character in it with goodies!



You don't have to be faster than them to out maneuver them. Getting them to hit a unit that can hold against them will be devastating to most Brets. Setting them up so that if they want to charge you they will be redirected into offering you a counter flank charge is very possible. Skirmishers are particularly good for this.
Yeah, getting to hit one of your 5 throw away units that don't cost any points because they are cheap? 5 throw away units should be about 400 points by any lists.. That's 25% of your points.. As mentioned above, throw away units - Brets just ignore because they are worthless and won't cause any harm. Nice try!



Stick a ranged unit behind a tarpit swarm that will angle the charge away from the ranged unit and the Brets are forced to weather a hail of ranged attacks one way or the other. Remember, Swarms do not block LoS so you can happily shoot over them while the Brets have to go through them to get to you.
Not all armies have massed ranged attacks.. Only Dwarves and Empire can have really effective gunlines.. As for some armies shooting isn't even an option such as VC.


You don't need THAT many bait units.

HE move faster and strike first. I'd love to see a Bret charge a ranked up unit of spearmen and expect to come out with better than an even shot.
Bait units don't work.. Any decent bret player will simply ignore the bait unit as once again, it provides no meaningful threat...

High Elves get handed even with ASF... Say, you are 5 wide and 4 ranks. Means that you get 15 models to fight with for High Elves (fight 3 ranks deep). Say, 16 attacks counting the champion. Say it is equal weapon skill - means 8 hits at S3.. Oh no, not 8 S3 hits.. Ok, 4 of those wound.. Now comes the 2+ AS.. One gets through and oh gee whiz look at that ward save.. Look, they did no wounds...
Now, what were you saying???

Mercules
12-02-2008, 13:37
Yeah, getting to hit one of your 5 throw away units that don't cost any points because they are cheap? 5 throw away units should be about 400 points by any lists.. That's 25% of your points.. As mentioned above, throw away units - Brets just ignore because they are worthless and won't cause any harm. Nice try!

Why do people believe that a bait unit is going to be killed? There is a flee reaction to a charge. Units do rally, especially those close to the General. Sometimes you will roll low and your unit will be caught, and sometimes you will roll high and it won't. 40 point unit luring a 200-300 point unit.



Not all armies have massed ranged attacks.. Only Dwarves and Empire can have really effective gunlines.. As for some armies shooting isn't even an option such as VC.

It isn't all or nothing. Most armies has a component of them that can shoot. Chaos is low on them. VC lack ranged weapons but have other things like fliers that can march block and blocks of troops that don't make break tests and can grow unchecked if you can't counter their magic.




Bait units don't work.. Any decent bret player will simply ignore the bait unit as once again, it provides no meaningful threat...

Right tool for the right job. You can't bait with a harmless unit, you are correct in that, but even 2 Leadbelchers with the potential of getting 8-10 Str 4 AP hits on a unit that costs twice their points will cause most Bretonnia players to at least consider them.



High Elves get handed even with ASF... Say, you are 5 wide and 4 ranks. Means that you get 15 models to fight with for High Elves (fight 3 ranks deep). Say, 16 attacks counting the champion. Say it is equal weapon skill - means 8 hits at S3.. Oh no, not 8 S3 hits.. Ok, 4 of those wound.. Now comes the 2+ AS.. One gets through and oh gee whiz look at that ward save.. Look, they did no wounds...
Now, what were you saying???

And if the Bretonnians don't break them on that charge? Bretonnia needs to break units on charges or they start to have issues. Yes they have another lance to come in, but they will have 2 lances for about every 3 units most other armies have. Ranked up Spearmen with full command cost 205 points... ranked up lance with full command costs 312. Brets that get tangled into a combat can be in real trouble.

Now, I agree that the lance needs looking at now that the number of models per rank to get a rank bonus has changed. It should probably go up to four models wide for Bretonnians. That would make a fully ranked up lance be impossible without inclusion of a character as I believe 15 is the size limit for KotR and such.

That being said, I've watched O&G defeat Brets and I've watched Skaven beat Brets. Yes, O&G the supposedly gimped list. Brets have a lot of strengths but no army is broken or unbeatable. Some just require less planning.

Lexy
12-02-2008, 13:48
Bait units don't work.. Any decent bret player will simply ignore the bait unit as once again, it provides no meaningful threat...

Yes they do.
Brets need the charge AND they need the close combat that goes with the charge
If a bait unit is well positioned you may sacrifice it, but it still gives the bret player three choices.
Example

|||
|||/
/

The vertical lines are brets, the diagonal line is the front of 5 wolf riders.
Now the bret player can do three things:
1 try to go around the wolfriders.
2 charge the wolfriders
3 stand still

Neither is good for the bret player and this is easy to punish by the OnG player.

Nobody in his right mind is going to wait for a Bret player to charge him in the front and hoping for a lot of 1's.

Chicago Slim
12-02-2008, 13:51
1) Past the first post (rules question) and its two direct responses, this entire thread belongs in the Tactics form.

2) Since it doesn't look like it's going to move, I'll add here: Bret tactics are pretty straightforward (there are a few Bret players I've met who use their less-obvious tactics, but mostly it's just Lance Formation). Because they're so straightforward, they're very predictable. Learn what he's going to do, and beat it.

Part of that means knowing the *******' rules of the game. I used to get all flustered and pissed off when I ran up against some special rule that I didn't know about some other army. The remedy for me was to learn the rules (ALL of the rules, not just the BRB and my own army books), so that I could stop being surprised by them.

Trust me, it's a lot more fun than whining.

Malorian
12-02-2008, 14:18
Bingo!
We learned that a unit of Kotr should always have a character in it with goodies!

Ummm that starts to REALLY add up... even a simple paladin with only a few "goodies" increases the cost of a unit quite a bit...

Uriain
12-02-2008, 17:30
While I can understand that an all cavalry list of KotR can be annoying to fight against, it is not all that powerfull. These lists that the op was talking about (VC or Chaos) still have numerous ways to beat the lance. VC simply summon undead at odd angles which means they Lance has to charge, or spend a whole turn manouvering around, which then means that the now summoned unit gets to charge them and aided by magic. Brets who dont charge, are still just humans, nothing *that* great. Chaos can simply throw hounds out at them to do the same thing. make them charge at odd angels or manouver away and hit them as they do that.

There are more lists out there that can have a great shooting phase then Dwarves and Empire. Both Dark and High elves can decimate units of knights with Bolt Throwers and small fire, because if you throw enough shots at a unit, they will fail saves, its that simple. O&G have numerous things to shoot. Lizardmen have salamanaders, Tomb kings have Screaming skull, archers, Casket, Ogres have Leadbelchers. Like seriously, there is alot to use to kill brets, its just really easy for them to kill you if you let them hit you with 2 lance formation units. I play Darkelves atm, and while waiting for the new book, I am starting a Knight Errants list (from SoC) and its got alot of weakenss's namely that if I dont charge, I am hoop-la'd. So before you start to complain about how bad the army is broken, maybe take a look at the list you are currently using see how you can tweak it to better fight all comer's because alot of lists now have cavalry.

Falkman
12-02-2008, 18:31
Not 20 Empire Greatswords that take 14 wounds from your charging Grail Knights w/ Banner of the Lady.. They last 2 rounds of combat tops..
This is one ******* unit!
The entire Bret army cannot consist of Grail knights since they are a 0-1 rare choice.

Mercules
12-02-2008, 19:06
This is one ******* unit!
The entire Bret army cannot consist of Grail knights since they are a 0-1 rare choice.

Not if you take the king as a special character. Then I believe they are still Rare, but 0+. Talk about point sinks though after you figure in the character and two Grail Knight units. Let's see...

728 King Louen Leoncoeur
74 Paladin BSB
120 KotR
100 KE
100 KE
114 Grail Knights
114 Grail Knights
-----
1350 before ANY items or unit enhancements, that is the bare minimum cost to get two Grail Knights units in a legal list. To get full command and +1 Rank Bonus on each unit we are talking 1844, that includes Virtue of Duty and War Banner for the Paladin as well as the Grail Vow so he can join the Grail Knights and give them +3 CR.

badgeraddict
12-02-2008, 19:07
I can't help, but laugh at this word 'broken'.

Does not a bad workman blame his tools?

I play Brets a lot and win about 1/4 of my games. Are my tactics bad? No its because I don't play to the army's strengths. I love the peasants too much! They are amazing, yet i see no whinging about Peasant Stakes or 6 point longbowmen that can match elven archers.

I mean c'mon tis only a game for Pete's sake!

:)

xragg
12-02-2008, 19:17
I think Brets are one of the easier armies to face. You know what you're getting, no surprises. Knights are expensive and bulky, and weak when they dont charge. Great armor saves are tough, but most armies has ways around armor.

I recently played Brets with my skaven. I used 25pnt night runner units run down the sides of the battlefield. He was obivously going to ignore them, so I charged his end units (not hard to do with a skirmish unit that charges 10"). I knew I was going to lose combat even when I charged with the 5 night runners, but it was still strategic. He had to take leadership tests to not pursue me away from the main battle. One failed and chased down my 25 point unit. That unit was out of the game for 2 turns now, since it had to turn around and then move back to the main battle. Little nuianses like that is what wins games, not just making a list of all your strengths and saying thats broken.

Malorian
12-02-2008, 19:33
I can't help, but laugh at this word 'broken'.

Does not a bad workman blame his tools?

I don't know how many times I've played people with just big expensive units that just sit there and wait for me to charge, and then rant about how the brets are broken.

Maybe if they didn't just sit and wait while hoping to god their magic and shooting will stop the knights they would actually start winning a few games. :rolleyes:

Uriain
13-02-2008, 04:36
I don't know how many times I've played people with just big expensive units that just sit there and wait for me to charge, and then rant about how the brets are broken.

Maybe if they didn't just sit and wait while hoping to god their magic and shooting will stop the knights they would actually start winning a few games. :rolleyes:

Quoted for truth. It is really sad that things come down to "If I cant beat it, its broken" type of attitude. Does that mean that the A Khorne list is Broken because they can have 8 dispell dice. Or a High Or Dark Elf army broken because they have 4 Bolt Throwers plus 8 lvl's of magic and a bunch of shooting. Or any gun line, or all cav list???? No, it just means that you have to change your tactics, pray for a bit of luck, and think outside your box. I am tweaking a Errantry wars list, and just had my first game against Tomb Kings, Multi unit charges, useing magic where I needed, killing off priests with my Pegasus Knights, still came out to a minor loss to me, for the simple reason that no matter how many knights you have, or how much shooting you have, there are going to be days where it is all for naught, and there will be days where you will simply get beat by a better general. Nuff said

Sir Lambard
13-02-2008, 15:33
No, it just means that you have to change your tactics, pray for a bit of luck, and think outside your box. no matter how many knights you have, or how much shooting you have, there are going to be days where it is all for naught, and there will be days where you will simply get beat by a better general. Nuff said

Exactly. Ive played against Dwarves that make my charge pointless, have crushed, tomb kings with one charge killing the general, and have gotten smahsed to bitz by an orge command unit

armies and lists arent broken, warhammer depends on the prowess of the player, not the units

Braad
13-02-2008, 18:53
Last weekend: knights of the realm charge unit of saurus. Knights have paladin, saurus have scar vet. Brets charge lizards. Lizards beat the **** out of the humies.
3 pegasus knights, 2 salamanders, spout a bit of flames, 3 dead pegasus knights.

If they truly are that broken, this could not have happened.

Though I have to admit that I'm having some troubles with my O&G against these knights, but I don't see this as anything being broken, I see this as a challenge.

Malorian
13-02-2008, 18:58
Last weekend: knights of the realm charge unit of saurus. Knights have paladin, saurus have scar vet. Brets charge lizards. Lizards beat the **** out of the humies.
3 pegasus knights, 2 salamanders, spout a bit of flames, 3 dead pegasus knights.

If they truly are that broken, this could not have happened.

Though I have to admit that I'm having some troubles with my O&G against these knights, but I don't see this as anything being broken, I see this as a challenge.

I don't think this is a good example because a saurus unit can almost never take a charge from a lance, especially once with a paladin. Although salamanders do work great against peg knights, this was pretty lucky too.

For lizardmen it's more about using skinks, stegadons, temple guard, the hunachi banner, JSoD and magic to beat them.

Grimgormx
14-02-2008, 01:41
I play different armies, O&G, Brets, VC, empire, ogres, and lizardmen, all have strenghts and weakness, and with brets you will get a victory by masacre or a defeat by masacre, they are easy to outmanouvre and most than all with VC, if well used VC are the fastest army in the game, I have got units behind enemy lines by turn 1

Maybe you only have to review your tactics, and change the way you fight, I can defeat a bretonian army using a goblin armie, the same I used to defeat HE