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Jack of Blades
11-02-2008, 16:16
This isn't a whine thread. This is what you would do differently.

I would:


Sword of Unholy Power... I would prefer it if it gave +2 Strength, gave the dice only to the Vampire himself, needed a D6 roll at the start of each player's turns and stopped being able to give you dice on the roll of a 1 (you'd lose half the dice it contained, rounding down, as well). Point cost: 100 points.
Leave Zombies as they were but halve their points cost
Give Ghouls a unique banner
Gave something (probably a price decrease and anything in BTB with a Spirit Host reduces its WS to 1) to Spirit Hosts
Kept Slavering Charge on the Dire Wolves
Reduce the points costs of Forbidden Lore and Dark Acolyte by respectively 10 and 5 points
Added in more Bound Items
Included a few more Lahmian Bloodline Powers
Kept the old Master of the Dark Arts Necrach power but renamed it
Make the Frostblade still ignore Armour Saves and cost 55 points


And that's about it :D
Give your lists!

Sherlocko
11-02-2008, 16:34
Considering your list, you think they are pretty nerfed, huh? :)

FatOlaf
11-02-2008, 16:35
The new list has angered me so much I have retired my army for a while.

Things I want to change are:

1) Keep ghouls alive and skirmishing

2) Halve the points cost for bat swarms

3) Drop the Black coach altogether, these new rules seem crazy...


Apart from that I'm happy, I just dont like the figures and have retired Count Olaf as a one man protest towards GW!

Jack of Blades
11-02-2008, 16:36
^ Bat Swarms have had their points cost practically halved.


Considering your list, you think they are pretty nerfed, huh? :)

Nah, there are just some minor things I'd change. I think they're vastly more interesting now :)

eleveninches
11-02-2008, 16:36
let charachters join zombie units (im not exactly sure if they can or not)

Jack of Blades
11-02-2008, 16:37
They can't I'm afraid :(

HalfEvil333
11-02-2008, 16:45
In all honesty, the only thing I'd change is increase the Dire Wolves by a point or two and return their Slavering Charge. I'm happy with pretty much the entire list.

Lordsaradain
11-02-2008, 16:56
1) Keep ghouls alive and skirmishing


Indeed. VC dont need more rank and file, they already have Zombies, skellies and Grave guard. Making ghould rank and file makes them pretty pointless imo, like fat olaf said, my ghouls will have to retire in wait for better days.
As they previously weren't undead, they could be used for baiting, something I did extensivly. Those happy days... :cries:

Chaos Mortal
11-02-2008, 18:01
i dont really see the advantage of ranked up ghouls and see know reason why this would benifit the list.

The_Dragon_Rising
11-02-2008, 18:13
In my opinion ghouls in the new codex are superior in a combat orientated list where magic could be used more offensivly, or put into the black coach, because at this time zombies become useless and i would prefer poison and T4 as opposed to skeles armour but T3.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-02-2008, 18:16
i dont really see the advantage of ranked up ghouls and see know reason why this would benifit the list.

Because they can cut down light infantry quicker than Skellies, whilst absorbing similar amounts of damage?

Higher Initiative and WS helps as well. Ideal flanking troops due to multiple attacks and poison. Sure, Skirmish would have been nice, but they still work.

Conotor
11-02-2008, 18:20
Make the Vaghulf US5, increase point cost, let it fly.

Add a werewolf hero.

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
11-02-2008, 18:44
WHY must everyone CHANGE stuff as soon as they get released?

I just feel like screaming STFU at times, but don't

Jakarn
11-02-2008, 18:49
I'd make everything S10, but thats only because i will be buying a 3k army :)

no, i'd make it so you CAN Level up the vamps without the bloodline powers.

I'd make necros actually usable, their statline is appawling, they will just get bolted and die.

i would make ghouls skirmishers, and get rid of the fact that chars cant join units of zombies. but other than that, i pretty much like what they've done with em, in paticular the wraiths and GG

EvC
11-02-2008, 19:04
Because they can cut down light infantry quicker than Skellies, whilst absorbing similar amounts of damage?

Higher Initiative and WS helps as well. Ideal flanking troops due to multiple attacks and poison. Sure, Skirmish would have been nice, but they still work.

If we're talking about advantage (which we are), then that is the answer right there, they would be even better at flanking the enemy, they'd still have been able to cut down light infantry and absorb damage (They'd take less damage from shooting in fact) etc. Making them ranked helps them break the enemies' ranks I suppose, but I'd be happy to give up that possiblity...

I can't think of many other changes I'd make; a simple 5+ ward save magic item wuld be grand. To be honest, most Vampire Counts are going to have a horrible time in combat, as ever. I'd have probably pumped their stats to 4W and 5A each as well.

Gorbad Ironclaw
11-02-2008, 19:09
While I'm not personally a fan of the ranked ghouls, in hind sight I actually think it's a decent idea. It gives you three very distinct infantry units that each do different things, so that works pretty well.

And it also makes the undead army play 'better' in the sense that it loses some of the fluid playstyle and actually plays more like a shambling horde, the way it is supposed to be.

At the moment I'd hesitate to say there is anything I'd change. I'm actually quite impressed with the army and I'd certainly want to see it play some more before I say anything should be changed. Especially not something like the magic power bloodlines. They are that price for a reason, and you can already get loads of magic power into the list.

Dominatrix
11-02-2008, 22:52
While I'm not personally a fan of the ranked ghouls, in hind sight I actually think it's a decent idea. It gives you three very distinct infantry units that each do different things, so that works pretty well.

Three very distinct infantry units as you put it is very nice and all but the fact remains the ghouls were even more distinct in 6th edition. Their loss of skirmisher and alive status is a big blow in my opinion as they had a unique role that nothing can fulfill right now.

Dranthar
12-02-2008, 04:53
Is this thread really necessary? The book hasn't even come out so any comments on what needs to be changed is more often than not just meaningless. Sure, you could say that necros are useless and extra magic levels shouldn't be a bloodline power, but until people start playing the game with these new rules, it's all just useless, meaningless theoryhammer. :mad:

Sorry, I'm just rapidly getting sick to death of these "NERF X!" posts.

Ward.
12-02-2008, 05:08
I'd have given ghouls the option to upgrade to a skirmishing unit, I think they did it to allow strigoi players to play an infantry based army without needing zombie's.

HalfEvil333
12-02-2008, 05:24
I'd have given ghouls the option to upgrade to a skirmishing unit, I think they did it to allow strigoi players to play an infantry based army without needing zombie's.

As a fan of the Strigoi, I can say I appreciate it. Heck, I'm just glad that Strigois can finally join them (I understand the need to have included that rule, but the fact the Ghoul Lord Vampires couldn't join Ghouls was annoying). I think the implications of being alive is a bigger lose than losing skirmishers, since Bat Swarms have been improved to fill that role.

Frgt/10
12-02-2008, 06:15
Make the Frostblade still ignore Armour Saves and cost 55 points



considering what it does now im surprised it doesnt cost more than 100 points. against an ogre army or any multiple wound target its lethal

Jampire
12-02-2008, 06:25
I'd change a few things...

Ghouls as flying skirmishers, with no new models for them because I fear change.

Necromancers upgradeable to level 4, because the new Vampire models suck and I can't help but vehemently voice my opinion about it.

Blood Knights reduced in cost. Not point wise, but money wise. I think GW should pay ME to buy THEM. After all, 5 metal Archaon-sized models CANNOT be worth $75 USD. On the other hand, I'll gladly fork over several hundred for some FW resin kits that will see little use. I LOVE to spend money. Frivolously.

Boxes of Grave Guard and Skeletons to come with 100 models each. 10 for $22USD? Never mind gas prices, and worldwide inflation, MY PLASTICS BETTER BE CHEAP. It's GWs fault for all of these things. Of course I'm speaking about George W. Bush, not a toy soldier company. I love toy soldiers.

Seriously, can people at least refrain from whining until something is released? I can see it now... People will be complaining about GW 5 years ahead of time just so they can be the ones to say "See? I totally called it. I rock."

Sorry, I KNOW it's not a whine thread, I'm just slowly getting fed up with most people complaining on the forums...
BTW OP, this was not directed at anyone in particular, just venting.

FatOlaf
12-02-2008, 11:33
^ Bat Swarms have had their points cost practically halved.


O have they? If so good, makes them sort of viable now...


In all honesty, the only thing I'd change is increase the Dire Wolves by a point or two and return their Slavering Charge. I'm happy with pretty much the entire list.

They've lost the charge? This is bad... But then again, you can raise them now though cant you?

HalfEvil333
12-02-2008, 11:41
They've lost the charge? This is bad... But then again, you can raise them now though cant you?

Yeah, but since they don't count as infantry, you can only heal a wound per Invoc cast. Not so bad considering how many time you can cast it now. They are also cheaper, so it not a major nerfing.

eleveninches
12-02-2008, 12:17
1. Let charachters join zombie units
2. let vamps be upgradable to lv2 normally (before bloodline powers)
3. make varghulfs US5 OR reduce it to 125 points
4. let ethereal vampires take magic items
5. keep skirmish rule for ghouls
6. Keep sword of unholy power
7. Allow blooddrinker to rasie wielders wounds to above the nuber of wounds on the staring profile
8. Give +1WS to the wraiths, or give them 7" move
9. Optional upgrade for dire wolves to get slavering charge for +1 point per model

zak
12-02-2008, 12:19
I can only go by the rumours and what I've heard on this thread as I've not seen the book. I like the change. The army before did not represent IMHO what I thought the Undead should. They were too mobile and fluid and not enough shambling unstoppable horde. I hope the new book reflects this. I love the new models and my wallet will take a beating from the VC.

I may of course change my mind entirely when I DO see the book!

eleveninches
12-02-2008, 12:25
the 6th edition was a summoning army which happenned to include vampires.
the 7th edition is a vampire army which happens to include some summoning.

Red_Duke
12-02-2008, 13:16
Id agree with ppl on the direwolf and ghoul points - both changes are a little bizarre and somewhat sucky (Direwolves were bad enough as they were - they certainly didnt need to get any worse! i wonder if perhaps something else was challenging their otherwise unassailable position of 'worst light cav in warhammer'?)

While undoubtably good - i dont like the idea of Vampires being able to have any magic lore. Vampire with Lore of Light? :wtf: craziness!

The changes to bloodline powers im a tad concerned about too - call me cynical - but i just dont trust 'em to make them balanced and to avoid the abuse potential (which seems pretty damn high from whats rumoured)

BigbyWolf
12-02-2008, 13:42
I'd leave 'em as they are, and then severely enjoy beating any and all VC armies that get fed to my Greenskins.

Thats what I did when they buffed up the High Elves.....

the_orc
12-02-2008, 13:44
Yeah, but since they don't count as infantry, you can only heal a wound per Invoc cast. Not so bad considering how many time you can cast it now. They are also cheaper, so it not a major nerfing.

Wait, let me think: Invoc is complexity 5+, so I will use 2 dice to cast it. My Vampire army will have around 8 power dice, if I understand the magic levels of the characters correctly. - So this gives me potentially 4 wolves back with all power dice I have, assuming the enemy is not dispelling any one of the attempts.

4 wolves doesn't seem much to me, considering, that an average enemy light cavalry potentially kills 5 models a round (10 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, no saves -> 2-3 wounds, outnumbering, standard -> another 3-4 wound from combat result). - I would think you will hava a hard time to keep the wolves in the game, once engaged in combat - Unless you start with units of 20+ wolves. - But they should be really cheap then.


I would have hoped for rules that make the wolves worth wile. In the current book, they can hardly take out an enemy warmachine and they get worse now. I believe they will now end up entirely as screen against shooting for the heavy cavalry.

CU - the_orc.

HalfEvil333
13-02-2008, 01:10
Wait, let me think: Invoc is complexity 5+, so I will use 2 dice to cast it. My Vampire army will have around 8 power dice, if I understand the magic levels of the characters correctly. - So this gives me potentially 4 wolves back with all power dice I have, assuming the enemy is not dispelling any one of the attempts.

4 wolves doesn't seem much to me, considering, that an average enemy light cavalry potentially kills 5 models a round (10 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, no saves -> 2-3 wounds, outnumbering, standard -> another 3-4 wound from combat result). - I would think you will hava a hard time to keep the wolves in the game, once engaged in combat - Unless you start with units of 20+ wolves. - But they should be really cheap then.


I would have hoped for rules that make the wolves worth wile. In the current book, they can hardly take out an enemy warmachine and they get worse now. I believe they will now end up entirely as screen against shooting for the heavy cavalry.

CU - the_orc.

Actually, Invoc has a 4+ casting value, and there's a Bloodline that adds +1 to the casting roll for Invoc on wolves and bats which is cheap, so unless you are completely strapped for points, you can be raising wolves back on a 3+. Still not the best, but atleast its something.

Yade
13-02-2008, 02:34
I like some of your suggestions and have a few responses.

I think that ghouls not being a fleeable skirmishing unit is a big deal but at the same time that same unit now can be core and you can have T4 / 2 ATT / poisonous core unit that cause fear and are immune to psych. Not to mention that you can choose them as a bloodline power and make them huge. With 2 attacks each they are worth more than twice a zombie at that alone.

If I were to make a few changes these are the ones I would make.

1. Make the effects on the black coach last only a turn or 2, and not cumulative.

2. Leave banshees alone; now they are very expensive being almost 200 points just to get the howl. Sure they cause terror now but that is a massive chunk of points just to scare your opponent.

3. Include some werewolf stuff such as a hero choice and some powers. (tres cool)

4. Make the corpse cart a 0-1, oh my it is going to be brutal as it is now. The -1 to cast for all enemies within 24 inches is CUMULATIVE, meaning if someone has 6 corpse carts within range of an enemy caster they are casting at a -6. Since carts are core this could be a common tactic; I am planning on running 4 of them myself.

5. Give black knights WS 4

6. Include the Zombie dragon as a stand alone choice in the rare section.

Those are some of my ideas.

Joewrightgm
13-02-2008, 02:47
well the thing about the corpse cart is that its (I think) around 100pts, and doesn't take up a core choice; so you still need some kind of core units to fill things back out.

Honestly, corpse carts are amazing (rule and model wise) but I just don't like the look of zombies, so I'd more often as not be using skeletons for my core.

Yade
13-02-2008, 03:10
I am not a big fan of the zombie models either so I am using other army models as "recently undead zombies". I have a few hundred goblins from the Skull Passes and they make great zombies. Empire free company would be great as well.

enigma
13-02-2008, 03:12
- ghouls alive and skirmishing, even if it was bought with points
- werewolf hero
- slavering charge
- price of Blood knights dropped :D

all i can think of atm.. havent read the book as of yet (damn aus!)

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-02-2008, 04:46
Three very distinct infantry units as you put it is very nice and all but the fact remains the ghouls were even more distinct in 6th edition. Their loss of skirmisher and alive status is a big blow in my opinion as they had a unique role that nothing can fulfill right now.


Certainly, I used 4 ghoul units myself in the old army, but after having tried it and thinking about it, I don't really miss them. I would like to have them in the army for sure. But this is about changing the way the VC army plays/feels. Previously it was very fast and very mobile, with hordes or small units backed up by a few very resilient blocks.
They have toned down the MSU manouverability concept making the army play different. While I liked the previous style and it worked very well, I do think in the end it was the right choice.

NecroNurgle
13-02-2008, 05:04
I'd put in a few things from the Sylvanian SoC list.
Give us the option for some shooting. I like the ideas of skeletons with crossbows even with BS 2, I'd like the option.
Give Direwolves the option to flee from a charge or slavering charge. And give them the ability to make one unit per army scout.
I'd give zombies a +5 regeneration save. They are incredibly easy to kill now, and zombies getting up from the dead is fluffy.
Give the Vargulf the 5th wound. And give him a scaly skin save of 5+. It's currently no where near as good as the Black Coach or a Unit of Bloodknights.
Make Wight Kings a 75 point unit champion for grave guard and black knights. With a limit of one per army. Wight Kings aren't good enough to take a hero choice.
Make Necromancers a 55 point unit upgrade for a unit of skeletons or zombies. No limit per army. But the spells they cast can only affect that unit. They can not take magic items and do not use a hero choice.
Ghouls should have an upgrade to make them a raider unit, similar to beastmen.
Oh and give us a plastic vampire kit. The metals are *****.

Heimlich
13-02-2008, 05:34
Definately give ghouls an upgrade to make them skirmishing

soots
13-02-2008, 05:37
Vamp counts should have been WS8 and 5 attacks. (Cant beleive theyre chaos lord/ Saurus lord fodder now)
Thralls should be WS7 and 4 attacks.
Zombies allow characters (perfect place for them to hide imo).
Ghouls have command group.

Dranthar
13-02-2008, 05:55
Zombies allow characters (perfect place for them to hide imo).

I think that was the whole point of disallowing characters to join zombies in the first place. Ever heard of the zombie bunker? Well with zombies 2/3rds of their previous cost the idea of hiding your caster/s in a cheap zombie unit would have potentially gone from questionable to broken.

In any case, they made the rule for a reason...there's no way it could have been an oversight.

Same applies for the loss of skirmishing ghouls, slavering charge on dire wolves, the sword of unholy power, and probably a good chunk of the other changes people here don't seem to like. :rolleyes:

Jack of Blades
13-02-2008, 06:54
I like some of your suggestions and have a few responses.

I think that ghouls not being a fleeable skirmishing unit is a big deal but at the same time that same unit now can be core and you can have T4 / 2 ATT / poisonous core unit that cause fear and are immune to psych. Not to mention that you can choose them as a bloodline power and make them huge. With 2 attacks each they are worth more than twice a zombie at that alone.

If I were to make a few changes these are the ones I would make.

1. Make the effects on the black coach last only a turn or 2, and not cumulative.

2. Leave banshees alone; now they are very expensive being almost 200 points just to get the howl. Sure they cause terror now but that is a massive chunk of points just to scare your opponent.

3. Include some werewolf stuff such as a hero choice and some powers. (tres cool)

4. Make the corpse cart a 0-1, oh my it is going to be brutal as it is now. The -1 to cast for all enemies within 24 inches is CUMULATIVE, meaning if someone has 6 corpse carts within range of an enemy caster they are casting at a -6. Since carts are core this could be a common tactic; I am planning on running 4 of them myself.

5. Give black knights WS 4

6. Include the Zombie dragon as a stand alone choice in the rare section.

Those are some of my ideas.

Seem strange.

1. And nerf it to oblivion? :confused:

2. Huh? you can just take a single Wraith and upgrade it to a Banshee. There you go, same price as before...

3. I failed to see how this would be very unique, and it would be so... boring.

4. Except that each CC will set you back 100 points and the caster(s) can move out of that area.

5. What's your reason for making their WS worse then?

6. Meh, we already have four...

NecroNurgle
13-02-2008, 07:01
Same applies for the loss of skirmishing ghouls, slavering charge on dire wolves, the sword of unholy power, and probably a good chunk of the other changes people here don't seem to like. :rolleyes:

The sword of unholy power I agree with. But slavering charge? Was that really all that bad? Most fast cav has two attacks. I hardly think one at str 4 was pushing it.

Fellblade
13-02-2008, 07:36
2. Huh? you can just take a single Wraith and upgrade it to a Banshee. There you go, same price as before...

5. What's your reason for making their WS worse then?

2. Minimum size for Wraith unit is 3, max is 10. You can't just buy one wraith and upgrade it to a banshee to use it as before.

5. Worse? Last I checked they were WS3 which most people would consider worse than ws4.



Other thoughts:

Honestly, I wish the coach did something with the absorded dice after it capped out. I watched some friends play a game this weekend which the coach absorbed about 12 dice before I stopped counting. Later that day I played a game and the coach sucked up 8. Maybe if any dice in excess of 6 would heal one wound each, up to its maximum limit?
On the other hand, since the coach can take its (improved) ward save against combat res crumble its pretty darn good now.

I'd have liked a couple more bloodline abilities, like things that would allow you to add stats to your vamps. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot to choose from already, but I sort of don't like how all vamp's stat lines are clones of each other.

I was really hoping for some skeletal crossbowmen, even if they only had a BS of 2.

I'd have liked for necros to be a little more useful. Perhaps allow them to be level 2s, but still limit them to the necromancy spells and not allow them to recast? Don't get me wrong, I very much like the emphasis being placed on vamps.

Zombies... ugh, horrible change. I'd have created a new unit type for the new zombie statline and called something like them "Animated Corpses". THEN, that frees up the name "zombie" for something more appropriate to zombie fluff.
I'm good with zombies being lowish strength, but they ought to be tough as hell to kill. I'd think they ought to have a toughness of at least 4 and either regen or a ward save, but drop their movement to 3 and be unaffected by Vanhel's. Perhaps they could be the skirmishing unit, but if so there should be a rule that they need to remain mobbed up rather than strung out in a line.

Dranthar
13-02-2008, 07:39
The sword of unholy power I agree with. But slavering charge? Was that really all that bad? Most fast cav has two attacks. I hardly think one at str 4 was pushing it.

No fast cavalry is as cheap as dire wolves either, and the units that come close are somewhat unreliable and have poor leadership.

Look, to be honest I never saw slavering charge to be all that powerful either, but perhaps the new focus towards infantry blocks of VC, the improvement to dire wolves in other ways (raisable) and some belief that the rule was ultimately uneccessary led to it's elimination?

I'll acknowledge that there's no obvious reason for dropping it, but in any case I don't think it's a huge loss to the dire wolves that will see their demise as a viable unit. ;)

Jack of Blades
13-02-2008, 07:43
2. Minimum size for Wraith unit is 3, max is 10. You can't just buy one wraith and upgrade it to a banshee to use it as before.

5. Worse? Last I checked they were WS3 which most people would consider worse than ws4.

I'm gonna wait and see.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/vampirecounts/preview/4/ disagrees.

I agree with you on the Zombies though. They shouldn't kill very much, but should hardly be killable.

-Grimgorironhide-
13-02-2008, 08:08
On zombies Fellblade, can you think on how many points they would cost with those additions and raising them like they can now would be absolutly unfair. Plus you could never have a horde of them.

Yade
13-02-2008, 08:43
I'm gonna wait and see.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/vampirecounts/preview/4/ disagrees.

I agree with you on the Zombies though. They shouldn't kill very much, but should hardly be killable.

Wraiths come as a minimum unit soze of 3 now, making the minimum unit cost of 150 pts, and that does not include the bansee. You then have to pay 25 points to upgrade 1 of them to a banshee, similar to a hero choice, meaning 1 per unit.

Black Knights are WS 3 and always have been. You are thinking of the new Blood Knights which are WS 5 base.

I have no idea what you mean by 4 zombie dragons. Only the count can take it as a mount and that limits it to 1 per lord choice. I like the idea of having one as a stand alone rare, that can be flavorful and it might be more useful than the other choices.

Corpse carts are going to be game breakers, 1 or 2 bound items each allowing units nearby to strike first and nerf enemy casting. They are not chariots so they can march and they have so many attacks and abilities including regeneration etc... I will include 4 in my army and watch an opponent try to get a spell off near my massive first striking undead horde.

It can be very unbalanced.

ChaosTicket
13-02-2008, 08:44
I don't have the new rulebook, or even know it's it's out yet, but i do know some things that i hated in the 6th edition one.

First, zombies and skeletons costed alot for underequipped and subpar units. Fear and Unbreakable were poor replacements for crappy combat ability. Being cheaper would have been great or have better abilities.

Wights were strong and tough, but also suffered from lack of combat ability. Their average(low for elite) WS ment that they would be hit often, and hit much less, rendering their increased strength and toughness negated by taking and dealing less hits.

Black coaches were elite chariots, but so expensive and rare they weren't worth taking just to be matchwood from cannons. Cheap and much more numerous chariots can do that, thank you very much.

Ghosts and Banshees really lacked effectiveness, the ghosts just being missle screens and the banshee being a really short range war machine.

Wolves lacking any riders, were really cheap, but lacked attacks.

Giants bats were great in occupying missle regiments and artillery and were just great. Bat swarms were alot less useful.

Really I wanted some way to either make zombies and skeletons cheaper or better, like have zombies with T4 and skeletons with spears/halberds and light armor for the 6th edition costs of 6/8pts respectively.

Some new monster and range units came in the form of the Sub-lists for things like the Lustria Pirate Zombie list, like undead ogres and undead gunners and cannons, but the low accuracy of the guns ment their would rarely hit, but when the did it was still quite strong. Then others like simply having crossbows and bolt throwers would be good.

From the Heimlich Kemmler list the Glooms were good as a a cheap unit that could only be killed by morale loses, but were so cheap it was ok to have them as a fodder regiment for the cheap but solid skeleton cavalry.

I see that some new things are coming, the most anticipated are the Blood Knights, being stronger and more skilled than the Wights making them much better but more importantly being actual Heavy Cavalry not just weaker empire knights with fear.

Really I want to see ranged, cavalry, monsters, and blocks of units.

I think really if the Wights and skeletons had better equipment like free spear and light armor for skeletons, and great weapons for Wights I would like them. Crossbow armed skeletons, and Zombie Ogres are also something I want to see. Any kind of war machine from zombie crewed cannons to skeleton catapults are important.

I want expensive units to actually be worth it, not high costs skeletons that are less effective than basic human soldiers, but 150% the cost, and that goes for most of the Vampire lists.

In General the 6th Edition army was based around crappy skeleton and decent wights units just being reinforcements for the vampire leaders that would do the actual fighting with others units being missle and cannon distractions and nothing more.

Yade
13-02-2008, 08:54
Bloodknights are WS 5, 2 ATT 3 on a charge, 5 Str 7 on a charge with the lances... there are some more abilities which are all balanced by the fact that they cost 55 points each and Nehek can only bring one of them back per casting.

ChaosTicket
13-02-2008, 22:33
Oh, then they are even better than I thought. I thought they were just Vampire Thralls on horses in units, not super thralls. If they are that expensive, and stronger than Chaos Chosen Knights, then that just means they will only be in 5strong units.

I think that if Skeletons and Wight units could just each have a Vampire champion, they would just be much better, as he or she would do the damage that Fear needs.

Fellblade
14-02-2008, 00:17
I'm gonna wait and see.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/vampirecounts/preview/4/ disagrees.
I still don't see your point, those are Blood Knights that you just linked. Black Knights, the grave guard (wights) on horses, are a totally different unit.



On zombies Fellblade, can you think on how many points they would cost with those additions and raising them like they can now would be absolutly unfair. Plus you could never have a horde of them.
Yeah, that's why I was saying the current ones (and everything about them) should be called something else and a unit using the name "Zombies" ought to be totally different and better fit the fluff. It was just really poor design to put the name "Zombie" on that new unit they gave us.

Jack of Blades
14-02-2008, 08:58
Said black knights? :wtf: my fault. Don't use BK anymore if you did, it's confusing... but I probably misread.

And yeah, they aren't really Zombies anymore imo either. Now they're more like ancient, emaciated and rotten corpses. How are they less tough than skeletons btw?