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ReveredChaplainDrake
12-02-2008, 01:24
Of all the grief that GW has gotten lately, especially regarding the 5th edition release this year, I guess we could use the reminder. There are things GW does better, and things that are better represented in the Dawn of War computer game.

Which do you think is better? Here's my (not so) brief analysis.

Warhammer 40k pros:
-modelling, painting, and converting your own pieces
-direct support from GW
-social intereaction
-balance encouragement
-quicker and deadlier
-faster tanks
-actually useful upgrades
-we have Tyranids!

Warhammer 40k cons:
-expensive
-unclear rules
-broken rules
-poor FAQ support
-uglier models on average

Dawn of War pros:
-can be played alone
-fog of war
-accurate depiction of race playstyle
-funny Ork phrases
-cover matters
-morale matters
-nothing is indestructible without weapons of certain strength (e.g. Shuriken Catapults can damage Monoliths)
-perfect WYSIWYG
-modifiable code
-greater mission variety
-each expansion gives pre-existing races new units

Dawn of War cons:
-glitches and bugs
-annoying explosions (particularly those that leave smoke or energy)
-biased damage
-demonic AI
-fluff discrepencies
-spam encouragement
-no LoS-blocking terrain
-the computer cheats

My conclusion is that the actual 40k game is more fun.

Captain Micha
12-02-2008, 01:29
The comp doesn't cheat. You just don't know how to beat it. *L*

Dawn of war is alot better, for starters the odds of a dawn of war expansion sucking are far lower than a ruleset for 40k sucking.

Also some of the problems you have mentioned are also faults of the game, like bugs and glitches, biased damage and fluff discrepancies.

40k is better right now, but if things stay on the path they are on for version 5 the game will be more fun than the table top game.

wickedvoodoo
12-02-2008, 01:37
Dawn of war never cost me as much money as 40k lol.

However i enjoy the modelling side of the hobby too. DOW will never offer me that.

I do think it was an awesome success for GW though. It is probably more popular than the other GW based computer games combined. 3 expansions is a good innings for a PC game.

Captain Micha
12-02-2008, 01:42
I dunno if you are capable of making mods Dow can offer modeling.

Also, the success is Thq and Relic's not Gws. gw just gave them the licensing rights.

Repzik
12-02-2008, 01:43
The comp doesn't cheat. You just don't know how to beat it.


actually it does cheat. if you play on anything but the lowest difficulty setting, and use a cheat to remove the fog of war, you will see that once they build like a boyz hut, they get a mek shop, and so on. thats why it is notoriously hard jumping from one difficuly setting, to another.

i would have to say that 40k is more fun. not only do you make friends doing it, but after a battle, you still have everything and all your men and tanks. plus you can paint them up to be proud of your work. as with dawn of war, if they die, you just make more without being proud of what your doing. and come on, who doesnt like the randomness of like a burst cannon killing a transport with all men inside? or an 8 point melta gunner getting a lucky shot and killing a land raider crusader? so i vote 40k ftw!

Captain Micha
12-02-2008, 01:46
I've never really had enough issue against the comp *L* I play multiplayer and there are some Dow clans out there which I've made some friends through.

Not having models to keep though is kinda the only downside then again the cost savings....

Captin Korea!
12-02-2008, 01:51
40k, defiler rush is burtal o_0 and I can beat my friends easyer at TT, with superior tank hording.

MADJAP77
12-02-2008, 02:08
Dawn of War 20-30 bucks, 40k 2000 pt army 3-500 bucks, the look on an opponnets face when i uncover my solid gold chaos, priceless.

wickedvoodoo
12-02-2008, 02:49
Also, the success is Thq and Relic's not Gws. gw just gave them the licensing rights.

Maybe not directly in finance terms but you are being a bit general.

Alot of people played DOW, not all of them were already into 40k. Any of them that decided they liked what they were seeing, and decided to check the whole warhammer thing out, were successes for GW surely.

I myself thank DOW for re-igniting my interest in the hobby after a few years out. Since then i have built two armies.

I think GW can count DOW as a success.

Captain Micha
12-02-2008, 02:58
Yeah but I wonder how many of those customers are going to be reoccurring

Nazguire
12-02-2008, 03:00
I play far more Dawn of War then 40k these days.

I pay rent so I can't afford anymore on my wages and living costs to add to my collection at GW's exhorbitant prices. With Dawn of War I can play in my favourite Science Fantasy universe for a one set price. All I have to do is block out the thoughts of how a Space Marine squad can get mowed down by a Fire Warrior squad, or why the Orks are losing to the Kroot in close combat.

Luisjoey
12-02-2008, 03:01
Dawn of war is a game WITH the escence of WH 40k, but WH40k is far better :D

i love both games

USABOB
12-02-2008, 03:08
DOW pros:
It is easier to pack up your stuff in Dow than TT, pushing an exit button is faster than packing up 100 minis.
More opponents and easier to access opponents (internet).
Never play with/against an unpainted army.
Animations!
DoW has better sound effects than TT:p.

TT Pros:
Physical models
Unique conversions
Don't have to use rules your gaming group/you disagree with while playing.
the ability to play more scenarios
Time to think in between actions makes it easier to play for people like me:).

They are both quite fun, but the ability to collect and convert physical minis tips it in favour of TT for me.

Feor
12-02-2008, 03:45
Hardly a fair comparison, since they're 100% different games, apart from being in the same universe. It's like asking "which is better, football (of either persuasion) or a crossword puzzle?"


DoW has better sound effects than TT:p.

Speak for yourself, I think I do pretty good sound effects.

Vaktathi
12-02-2008, 03:46
to me, the biggest problem with DoW is the invulnerability of units when doing their finishing move (such as a wraithlord squishing a guy to death) and its really annoying when it there are several really big things that need to be shot and the one you are concentrating fire on goes invulnerable just before you kill it as it instantly squishes some dude.

that said, they are two different games that are for different preferences of play. I like both very much.

kikkoman
12-02-2008, 04:26
Dawn of War cons:
hurray, an oppertunity for me to bitch about a pretty good, solid game!

It's in the art direction and feelin'
models are worse looking than tabletop versions. Or Orks n' Eldar at least. Especially Eldar.

Orks faces are messed up. Their noses are weirdly prominent, teeth needly. Ah, I know why, because they made their faces look like goggles with a water balloon attached to them. There is a big circular ridge around each of their eyes, their button nose makes it all look like a bow tie. Then some generic mouth with thin teeth.

An Ork's face is not hard to mess up, bu they did it. It's very simple what a GW ork looks like. Their WAAAGH banners with that stylized skull, that's it. two parts, it's a skull in two pieces, upper piece eyes+upper teeth, lower piece a huge lower jaw. They screwed it up by detatching the eyes from the mouth completely.

Doesn't look like good GW ork art, or what a tabletop model's face looks like. Farseer's female with a guardian helmet (he's suppost to be a crystallizing old geezer goddamnit! with antlers!) Harlequin's a novelty hooker with a venetian mask. It has nothing to do with polygon count or textures, just DoW artists/modelers not as skilled as GW artists/sculptors.

All the Eldar sound like chain smoking grannies, the male ones. Relic tried very hard to make the Space Elves as faggy as they could possibly get.

Farseers being female, the execution of it and the idea of it both are bothersome. Every 40k figure of a Farseer is male. The most famous farseer is male. They are old, old, old, ancient old men. But Relic just thought "well, they're elves, so lets make it a chick. With tits, and wings, yeah, that's cooler than stupid antlers".
Sure there's female harlequin models too, but the majority of them are male.
'logically' there's more precedent in having say, a female Comissar in Dawn of War, since that model actually exists. But in Relic's thinking, the Eldar are Space Elves, Elves in popular games like Warcraft got lots of chicks, so lets throw in as many girls as we can.

The gender, no, that's not really important at all. It's just how they look. I think that they look crappy compared to the original designs, and a change being gender, just makes the gender seem like what's responsible. Dawn of War Farseers, with the guardian helmets and wings and big pointy chest without any runes, they look crappy to me. It's Relic's original design based on GW material and it sucks, in my opinion, yeah.
A female Farseer could be awesome, but an awesome design I did not get.


so... if Tabletop Eldar:Prince+David Bowie
then... DoW Eldar:Queer Eye and /dance Nightelf

and yeah, the orks, they just don't look as good. faces are messed up. Relic's artists are just OK. They are alright for a video game company of fair status. They are not as good as GW artists, nor do they have as much experience.

I don't like Dawn of War designs the same way I don't like Dark Eldar tabletop models.

BUT for some goddamn reason, the DoW Dark Eldar look pretty nice. What the hell, I am confused.

AllisterCaine
12-02-2008, 04:27
The comp doesn't cheat. You just don't know how to beat it. *L*

Dawn of war is alot better, for starters the odds of a dawn of war expansion sucking are far lower than a ruleset for 40k sucking.

Also some of the problems you have mentioned are also faults of the game, like bugs and glitches, biased damage and fluff discrepancies.

40k is better right now, but if things stay on the path they are on for version 5 the game will be more fun than the table top game.

no, computers are programmed to "cheat" at higher levels of difficulty.

The way i see it, 40k is still being fixed up, give it some time to recover and enter the golden age when all the rules are balanced, aka almost never.

TheDarkDuke
12-02-2008, 06:04
hurray, an oppertunity for me to bitch about a pretty good, solid game!

It's in the art direction and feelin'
models are worse looking than tabletop versions. Or Orks n' Eldar at least. Especially Eldar.

Orks faces are messed up. Their noses are weirdly prominent, teeth needly. Ah, I know why, because they made their faces look like goggles with a water balloon attached to them. There is a big circular ridge around each of their eyes, their button nose makes it all look like a bow tie. Then some generic mouth with thin teeth.

An Ork's face is not hard to mess up, bu they did it. It's very simple what a GW ork looks like. Their WAAAGH banners with that stylized skull, that's it. two parts, it's a skull in two pieces, upper piece eyes+upper teeth, lower piece a huge lower jaw. They screwed it up by detatching the eyes from the mouth completely.

Doesn't look like good GW ork art, or what a tabletop model's face looks like. Farseer's female with a guardian helmet (he's suppost to be a crystallizing old geezer goddamnit! with antlers!) Harlequin's a novelty hooker with a venetian mask. It has nothing to do with polygon count or textures, just DoW artists/modelers not as skilled as GW artists/sculptors.

All the Eldar sound like chain smoking grannies, the male ones. Relic tried very hard to make the Space Elves as faggy as they could possibly get.

Farseers being female, the execution of it and the idea of it both are bothersome. Every 40k figure of a Farseer is male. The most famous farseer is male. They are old, old, old, ancient old men. But Relic just thought "well, they're elves, so lets make it a chick. With tits, and wings, yeah, that's cooler than stupid antlers".
Sure there's female harlequin models too, but the majority of them are male.
'logically' there's more precedent in having say, a female Comissar in Dawn of War, since that model actually exists. But in Relic's thinking, the Eldar are Space Elves, Elves in popular games like Warcraft got lots of chicks, so lets throw in as many girls as we can.

The gender, no, that's not really important at all. It's just how they look. I think that they look crappy compared to the original designs, and a change being gender, just makes the gender seem like what's responsible. Dawn of War Farseers, with the guardian helmets and wings and big pointy chest without any runes, they look crappy to me. It's Relic's original design based on GW material and it sucks, in my opinion, yeah.
A female Farseer could be awesome, but an awesome design I did not get.


so... if Tabletop Eldar:Prince+David Bowie
then... DoW Eldar:Queer Eye and /dance Nightelf

and yeah, the orks, they just don't look as good. faces are messed up. Relic's artists are just OK. They are alright for a video game company of fair status. They are not as good as GW artists, nor do they have as much experience.

I don't like Dawn of War designs the same way I don't like Dark Eldar tabletop models.

BUT for some goddamn reason, the DoW Dark Eldar look pretty nice. What the hell, I am confused.

Well for starters, the Eldar and Ork in DoW were created before there new minis. Making them far superior to the model line they were designed after. Secondly you are nitpicking over a female Farseer? Its not as if they went out and turn Eldar into all females... a Farseer and Howling Banshees is FAR from them making Eldar Female Space Elves. The Harlies are clearly not female. As for the Orks, I am really not sure what you are looking at, they are clearly on par with what the minis represent.

Lord_Squinty
12-02-2008, 06:32
Dawn of War pros:
-greater mission variety


Surely TT40k has more scope for mission variety?
True - you gotta invent them yourself, but you could create any mission you can imagine (and have models for).

Admiral Koppenflak
12-02-2008, 07:09
Harlequin's a novelty hooker with a venetian mask. It has nothing to do with polygon count or textures, just DoW artists/modelers not as skilled as GW artists/sculptors.

As someone who's essentially got a degree in Multimedia Arts in 3D animation and special effects, I should take great exception to this. It's incredibly hard to model a biological figure no matter what medium it is, and its even harder to animate them.

Add to that that Relic IS - despite your claims - restricted by polygon counts and texture resolutions because it's a game that is limited by its own coding and hardware, using an engine which is now 4 or 5 years old.

As for harlequins being novelty hookers with venetian masks... Come on! Harlequin's areessentially weed-smoking artists who tell the doom of their race through interpretive dance. How else are you going to represent them!?

"Jesus, what's the meaning of life?"
"I'll SHOW you! ...Through Interpretive dance!!" /family guy.

Ok, rant over now...

DoW will never be "better" than 40K. It's a representation of the universe, but it's never going to match the degree of 'involvement' you can get from the minatures themselves. Be it the choice of Guardsmen you're using, or the iconography of your space marines.

LordFulgrim
12-02-2008, 08:59
I really like DoW but it just cannot offer the involvement I get from 40K. Seeing my painted army just gives me a kick I cannot get from the game. It's not just the game but the whole hobby around it that I like.

TheMartyr451
12-02-2008, 09:46
hurray, an oppertunity for me to bitch about a pretty good, solid game!

It's in the art direction and feelin'
models are worse looking than tabletop versions. Or Orks n' Eldar at least. Especially Eldar.

Orks faces are messed up. Their noses are weirdly prominent, teeth needly. Ah, I know why, because they made their faces look like goggles with a water balloon attached to them. There is a big circular ridge around each of their eyes, their button nose makes it all look like a bow tie. Then some generic mouth with thin teeth.

An Ork's face is not hard to mess up, bu they did it. It's very simple what a GW ork looks like. Their WAAAGH banners with that stylized skull, that's it. two parts, it's a skull in two pieces, upper piece eyes+upper teeth, lower piece a huge lower jaw. They screwed it up by detatching the eyes from the mouth completely.

Doesn't look like good GW ork art, or what a tabletop model's face looks like. Farseer's female with a guardian helmet (he's suppost to be a crystallizing old geezer goddamnit! with antlers!) Harlequin's a novelty hooker with a venetian mask. It has nothing to do with polygon count or textures, just DoW artists/modelers not as skilled as GW artists/sculptors.

All the Eldar sound like chain smoking grannies, the male ones. Relic tried very hard to make the Space Elves as faggy as they could possibly get.

Farseers being female, the execution of it and the idea of it both are bothersome. Every 40k figure of a Farseer is male. The most famous farseer is male. They are old, old, old, ancient old men. But Relic just thought "well, they're elves, so lets make it a chick. With tits, and wings, yeah, that's cooler than stupid antlers".
Sure there's female harlequin models too, but the majority of them are male.
'logically' there's more precedent in having say, a female Comissar in Dawn of War, since that model actually exists. But in Relic's thinking, the Eldar are Space Elves, Elves in popular games like Warcraft got lots of chicks, so lets throw in as many girls as we can.

The gender, no, that's not really important at all. It's just how they look. I think that they look crappy compared to the original designs, and a change being gender, just makes the gender seem like what's responsible. Dawn of War Farseers, with the guardian helmets and wings and big pointy chest without any runes, they look crappy to me. It's Relic's original design based on GW material and it sucks, in my opinion, yeah.
A female Farseer could be awesome, but an awesome design I did not get.


so... if Tabletop Eldar:Prince+David Bowie
then... DoW Eldar:Queer Eye and /dance Nightelf

and yeah, the orks, they just don't look as good. faces are messed up. Relic's artists are just OK. They are alright for a video game company of fair status. They are not as good as GW artists, nor do they have as much experience.

I don't like Dawn of War designs the same way I don't like Dark Eldar tabletop models.

BUT for some goddamn reason, the DoW Dark Eldar look pretty nice. What the hell, I am confused.

I'd like to see you do a better job.

Brother Loki
12-02-2008, 10:18
Kikkoman, where do you get the idea that Farseers are male? Eldar society is entirely gender-equal. They make no distinctions between the sexes in terms of role. It's always been that way. There are female farseers, just as there are both male and female members of all the Aspects (including banshees, although they are predominantly female).

The Dawn of War one's certainly not the first female farseer in the 40k background. There was also Ela'Ashbel, Farseer of Kaelor Craftworld.

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-02-2008, 10:34
Let me put it this way. I've played 40k for more than a decade. I've tried DoW maybe two weeks before I decided it wasn't worth the bother.

It sort of looked like 40k, but it certainly didn't had anything to do with how it playes or anything else.

DamonHunter13
12-02-2008, 11:03
I think dawn of war would be better when they get all of the units from TT and put them in. Also a customizable hero and army would be nice cause all space marines are individuals. Something like the warhammer Mark of Chaos customize menu.

At least Tau can have turrets in the TT, I have noticed when playing as other armies in the Dark Crusade campaign Tau get wiped out in a few turns.

I like both but 40k is my favorite as I can give my captain dual bolt pistols and krak grenades.



40k more customizable

The_Outsider
12-02-2008, 11:08
40K is far more fun - but DoW is also fun.

It comes down to the blatant fact that DoW came after 40K - the actual game of 40k encompasses a HUGE amount of models, rules and background material - something DoW doesn't touch.

Thats not to say DoW isn't fun - i've put in some serious amount of hours at it and my skills show it. [/gloating]

swordwind
12-02-2008, 11:14
I'd like to see you do a better job.

Yes, because only game studios with multimillion pound budgets are allowed to criticise other games now :rolleyes:

Until you can look down upon your freshly painting, fully converted, finished Dawn of War army and can say "I made that with my own two hands", 40k will always be better. Your DoW guys disappear into the ether as soon as you click the exit button, your miniatures are with you for life.

The_Outsider
12-02-2008, 11:24
I'd like to see you do a better job.


Yes, because only game studios with multimillion pound budgets are allowed to criticise other games now :rolleyes:

Its worth remembering that 1) RTS games aren't of designed to have insane graphical detail 2) the engine DoW runs on is 4-5 years old, WA, DC and soon to be SS are just modded versions 3) there needs to be some artistic licensing to actually make the game playable to those not "in the know".

To give it soem context - SoB are going ot be in SS and they'll look good but nothing special, the community SOB mod is aiming for really high end model desgin and units - the sort of thing that relic/iron lore would enver do as dow is designed ot run on nearly any machine.

DoW is a solid RTS and one of the best on the market - few games implement things like moral and its unique resource gathering system.

But as I said previously - thee is no way anything 40k could be better than the real thing - its got a decade head start.

Wraithbored
12-02-2008, 12:39
Just to add this to the costs in order to have been able to play the first dawn of war you had to splurge for a high end comp which usually costs at around 800€. Yes you can argue(and you should) that for TT Wh40k you need a gaming table. But those come awfully cheap as well as the plasticard and stirofoam for the hills etc. So Dow+wa+dark crusade+soulstorm+costs of a good computer+isp costs are well over the tabletop costs.

the nightbringer
12-02-2008, 12:40
Just missing the fact you can customis you minitures.

intellectawe
12-02-2008, 12:52
Just to add this to the costs in order to have been able to play the first dawn of war you had to splurge for a high end comp which usually costs at around 800. Yes you can argue(and you should) that for TT Wh40k you need a gaming table. But those come awfully cheap as well as the plasticard and stirofoam for the hills etc. So Dow+wa+dark crusade+soulstorm+costs of a good computer+isp costs are well over the tabletop costs.

Sorry. The fact is computer are common, so you don't need to factor them into the cost of the game at all.

Plus, you don't need a high end computer for a game that is 4+ years old.

I can buy a new computer with ONLY Soulstorm because I only play Dark Eldar table top. It would cost me MORE to buy a Dark Eldar Army from GW than it would for a comp and Soulstorm.

Going by your example, since you own each army through each game, you would need to buy each table top army that appears in each game.

So even if you want to go by your expensive example, to buy full Space Marine, Chaos, IG, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters, Necron and Ork armies would FAAAAAR exceed your smallish figure for a comp + games.


Also, computer don't cheat. They can't cheat. They are programmed to give you a difficulty level to simulate an expert player. If a computer could cheat you, well.... I think Judgment Day is coming and I hope Arnold is coming to save me!

Usiel
12-02-2008, 13:17
Makes blue monkey ke ke ke ^_^

-Points-

Why not have both?

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2348156#post2348156

Usi :wink:

The_Outsider
12-02-2008, 13:20
Sorry. The fact is computer are common, so you don't need to factor them into the cost of the game at all.

Plus, you don't need a high end computer for a game that is 4+ years old.

Even when it was released DoW didn't exactly require a computer that could out compute Deep Blue.



Also, computer don't cheat. They can't cheat. They are programmed to give you a difficulty level to simulate an expert player. If a computer could cheat you, well.... I think Judgment Day is coming and I hope Arnold is coming to save me!

Actually DoW AI does cheat- any difficulty above normal it gets a resource boost, it automatically detects all your infiltrated units (but on lower difficulties is too stupid to do anything about it) in addition to things like production speed increase in campaign.

DoW AI has always cheated to even come close to levelling the playing field - hence why god coded the Dawn of Skirmish mod.

Mercer
12-02-2008, 13:27
I enjoy the modelling and painting side, while also seeing the quality of the models.

The game though, is better. It has explosions, sounds no rules to follow, no need to look in books.

Mercer

MrPickles
12-02-2008, 13:37
-accurate depiction of race playstyle

Very true of Dawn of War I'm sure, I mean who doesn't use marines that have paper thin armor? Or what about terminators that have powerfists that do less than tactical squad knives? :rolleyes:

After playing DoW for 6 months before getting into 40k, I have to say I don't know where some of you are getting that DoW is better than 40k. Yes DoW was a pretty good pc game for its time, but the balancing is terrible, and atleast GW gives new codecies every 4 months!. When the game goes over to the Essence Engine (Company of Heroes), I might consider picking up DoW 2.

The_Outsider
12-02-2008, 13:49
Very true of Dawn of War I'm sure, I mean who doesn't use marines that have paper thin armor? Or what about terminators that have powerfists that do less than tactical squad knives? :rolleyes:

A termiantor squad will actually fail to kill a scout inside of several minutes.

Souleater
12-02-2008, 14:49
Well, I dont' play DoW any more but at least the Dark Eldar are getting a 'codex' soon :D

Vaktathi
12-02-2008, 16:00
Also, computer don't cheat. They can't cheat. They are programmed to give you a difficulty level to simulate an expert player. If a computer could cheat you, well.... I think Judgment Day is coming and I hope Arnold is coming to save me!

The computer gets increased resources and build time at medium-higher difficulty levels, auatomatically knows where stealthed units are (even if they can't shoot at them, if you don't believe me try playing against Imp Guard with any stealthed unit, and place it in random places, they will keep using their detector thingy right on it no matter how often you move it) and when you ahve several AI's working together, they don't work as 3 AI's, it works as one massive AI at higher difficulty levels.

An "expert" player the DoW AI is not, it gets by through increased resource ability and throwing out more units than you can kill. Decent players can pound the crap out of the Insane AI, hence why there is a mod increasing the difficulty level of the AI (where the AI will actually do things like use Earthshaker rounds, use jump infantry effectively,etc)

The Song of Spears
12-02-2008, 16:27
As for harlequins being novelty hookers with venetian masks... Come on! Harlequin's areessentially weed-smoking artists who tell the doom of their race through interpretive dance. How else are you going to represent them!?

"Jesus, what's the meaning of life?"
"I'll SHOW you! ...Through Interpretive dance!!" /family guy.



Reading this made me happy :D good stuff!

As far as DoW and 40k.... they both rock!!! I think they are a lot like a book and a movie of the book. DoW really captures the chaos of battle the gore, the great sound effects and such. While 40k gives you 1000% more strategy and tactics and mission variety.

Both are great, but different. I play 40k from time to time, i play DoW ti re-energize my enthusiasm for 40k from time to time.

Cuda
12-02-2008, 16:38
I like both, but DoW tends to make one lazy. I got into a bit where my mini's were backed up with lights sparling off their pewter-hides.
Eagerly awaiting Soulstorm! Dark Eldar & Sisters awesome!

Cuda...

Eldrad
12-02-2008, 18:15
I prefer WH40k, I feel DoW is a micromanagement click fest. I wish Relic had gone in the direction of GroundControl for DoW.

AmBlam
12-02-2008, 21:22
I think DOW is a series of good ideas executed terribly.... WH40K for me

Torga_DW
12-02-2008, 21:33
I like DoW for the combat animations. Its more like watching a 40k movie. I like it for that reason. I bought firewarrior (10 bucks) just so i could save the movies to my hard drive. But yeah, all RTS games to me are about scrolling frantically around the screen clicking like a madman. Trying to spam your army out in the fastest time so you can zerg your enemy before he has an army built to play with.

For serious tactical games, it will always be 40k for me.

The_Outsider
12-02-2008, 21:41
ITT people can't play DoW...

ANYWAY another reason I like DoW (specifically the original) is the intro - its the most *perfect* visual representation of 40k I have ever seen, its just so....so...right.

Ekranoplan
12-02-2008, 21:42
All RTS AIs cheat. Actually, its really not cheating. Its a handicap because the computer does not have a real brain.

Cuda
12-02-2008, 21:45
ITT people can't play DoW...

ANYWAY another reason I like DoW (specifically the original) is the intro - its the most *perfect* visual representation of 40k I have ever seen, its just so....so...right.

I agree, even to this day, it hasn't been beat!

Cuda...

Torga_DW
12-02-2008, 21:46
Oh yeah, that movie is hell cool. Its a pity they didn't do another one like that for dark crusade, where the movie was totally crap in comparison. I might go watch the original movie again now. =)

swordwind
12-02-2008, 21:48
Final Liberation's movies are better ;)

The_Outsider
12-02-2008, 22:02
Oh yeah, that movie is hell cool. Its a pity they didn't do another one like that for dark crusade, where the movie was totally crap in comparison. I might go watch the original movie again now. =)

Last I heard was down to cost - some serious CGI like that has to cost a fair amount of cash.

Not to mention its easy using in game assets for an intro - cheaper, faster and the devs have complete control.

It is worth noting that for the WA/DC/SS intro the models they use are really high res versions - well over what you can get in game (even with malarcky like fullres_1).

Damocles8
12-02-2008, 22:30
DoW was the reason I got into 40k.....

Dav0r
12-02-2008, 22:48
I prefer WH40k, I feel DoW is a micromanagement click fest. I wish Relic had gone in the direction of GroundControl for DoW.


DoW was the reason I got into 40k.....

I'm with both of you. Because of the reason told by Eldrad, I went from DoW to the good old turn-based 40k.
After years passed playing several RTS it occured to me that it was just a click race and then I (nearly) stopped playing them. I say 'nearly' because I still play DoW sometimes :)

Frep
12-02-2008, 22:55
Same here Snakesh1t, DoW of got me and my two brothers into the game, personally I'd say I like them equally but for different reasons.

Theola
13-02-2008, 00:13
I consider myself more of a video gamer than a traditional games player... and yet overall, I'd say I prefer 40K over DoW. The fun of being face to face with your opponents beats playing online any day. I like turn-based strategy much much more than real time, so RTS games don't appeal to me that much in the first place, except for a select few. Plus, unlike a video game, your mission objectives, models and maps aren't limited to what the developers thought of.

I actually got into 40K thanks to DoW. I played a few games of 40K in high school, but I didn't really get it. A few years later after picking up DoW, it reminded me of how cool the setting was, and now I'm liking 40K way more than DoW.

Of course, there are times when DoW is just more convenient: when you don't want to drag all your stuff to a friend's house or the game store, or you don't have much money to buy all that stuff in the first place.

The new Squad Command game makes me very happy, but I just wish it was bigger. It's such a tiny little slice of the huge universe of 40K.

Usiel
13-02-2008, 00:16
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127438

Have a look at this, new AI, totally revamped game play and balance. It IS 40K in a computer game. Firestorm is what DoW should have been, I say that only quoting those that have played it.

This mod was made for Table top players.

O_O So hurry up and check it out!

TheMav80
13-02-2008, 00:24
I love DoW. it is what finally pushed me over the edge into the dark abyss that is GW miniatures. Imagine my surprise when Kroot weren't nearly so bad ass on the table top. :angel:

I love RTS games in general though. Probably my favorite genre. DoW might not be the most accurate representation of the TT version, but that doesn'tmake it not fun. Me and my two room mates like to put the difficulty to insane and face off 3 Ork AIs. It is fun just trying to see how long you can hold off the green tide.

If DoW was a little more like Company of Heroes it would be near perfect. I can't wait for SS next month.

Kerrahn
13-02-2008, 00:48
I started with the TT about 5 years ago, got DoW not long after release and loved it, and still do.

Being a long-time RTS gamer, I like both DoW and the TT equally. I like the customization options and advanced tactics in the TT, but the atmosphere in DoW (explosions, sound effects, unit catchphrases and general carnage) is something that the TT just doesn't have.

DoW is easier to play though in that you don't need to spend months collecting/assembling/painting and then spend an hour or more of your time to set-up and play, but the TT does have a lot more Lore/Fluff, which is something I really enjoy reading about (I even have the World of Warcraft RPG books mostly because it tells you stuff you won't ever find out in the MMO or other games).

In anticipation of SS next month, I even went back through my Witch Hunters codex and the White Dwarf issue after their release to learn all about their history and stuff all over. Can't wait for the release (and I love that the Order of the Sacred Rose, the Order I play, is seeing some action instead of Order of Our Martyred Lady).

intellectawe
13-02-2008, 03:22
Ok, you guys got me. The computer cheats. the Computer grew a sentients at some point and is aware of itself. It understands the concept of right and wrong, and thus can now cheat.

You guys are right. I won't .... omg.... wai... my compute..... is... aliv ..>!!!! IT IS AWARE!!!!

Damocles8
13-02-2008, 03:26
check out DoW TTRU on fileplanet.....

Ghost Of Caliban
13-02-2008, 03:43
Hey late into this thread, what are some of the better code/mods for DOW? as in different looking models etc?
cheers

Shadowb|ade
13-02-2008, 09:59
Doesn't look like good GW ork art, or what a tabletop model's face looks like. Farseer's female with a guardian helmet (he's suppost to be a crystallizing old geezer goddamnit! with antlers!) Harlequin's a novelty hooker with a venetian mask. It has nothing to do with polygon count or textures, just DoW artists/modelers not as skilled as GW artists/sculptors.



First and foremost, The fact that the Relic artists and modelers are working IN a game company in the first place indicates that they are pretty damned good in their trade.

Secondly, one of the issues which you face when in an industry and trying to get a game on the shelves in time constraints. A 3d-modeler working on a computer game has anywhere between a day to a week to have any number of models, where as a games workshop sculptor can have anywhere between a week to a month per model. .

Thirdly, the artists and modelers that work with the concepts and art supplied by games workshop will have probably been told to take a few liberties here and there on finer details. A lot of these 'liberties' would have been in terms of keeping a low polygon count to streamline the model for ease of adding it into the game, and texturing.

Conclusion, it gets to a point where a model becomes a near enough approximation of the table top model that it gets put into the game, hence the model may not be 100% accurate.

Postscript:- I CHALLENGE you to make a better 3d model of a harlequin, texture it, rig it and put it into Dawn of war.

Post-Postscript:-I also apologies for the lateness of adding this rant.

Warp Zero
13-02-2008, 10:23
Dawn of War pros:
-can be played alone
-fog of war
-accurate depiction of race playstyle
-funny Ork phrases
-cover matters
-morale matters
-nothing is indestructible without weapons of certain strength (e.g. Shuriken Catapults can damage Monoliths)
-perfect WYSIWYG
-modifiable code
-greater mission variety
-each expansion gives pre-existing races new units




Okay, gotta admit I'm a little tired of hearing this.

Morale matters in the table top game too. Every now and then, I run into a statement about how "Leadership" doesn't matter and blah blah blah. I can only assume that such feelings are coming from players who have high leadership (Marine with Master) or Fearless armies playing one another over and over.

But some of us play other armies like Tau, Imperial Guard, Orks, Eldar, etc. We get out numbered in hand to hand and it matters. We fail a morale test while being under half and it matters. We fail a pin test and it matters.

intellectawe
13-02-2008, 16:04
Okay, gotta admit I'm a little tired of hearing this.

Morale matters in the table top game too. Every now and then, I run into a statement about how "Leadership" doesn't matter and blah blah blah. I can only assume that such feelings are coming from players who have high leadership (Marine with Master) or Fearless armies playing one another over and over.

But some of us play other armies like Tau, Imperial Guard, Orks, Eldar, etc. We get out numbered in hand to hand and it matters. We fail a morale test while being under half and it matters. We fail a pin test and it matters.

Tau - Ethreal allows rerolls. Bonding Knives allows regrouping.

IG - Vox thing allows everyone to use the commanders leadership

Orks - The entire army is now fearless. countless ways to reroll morale checks with nobs and wargear

Eldar - Use an avatar, makes your front line fearless right? Dont have the codex, I dont know


Plus, it doesn't matter how many times you get shot, you never get worse than a -1 leadership ( unless we are using ord. weapons / pinning ... wow, another -1 woopie! )

In DOW, you loose 5 guys, the whole unit breaks and becomes worthless. In TT, you loose 6 Tau, make a test at -1 and stand your ground.

Johnnyfrej
13-02-2008, 23:22
I feel a special place in my heart that I must share with the world... or at least an internet thread: Dawn of War got me started on 40k.
Sometime around 2 years ago I aquired a PC game by the name of Dawn of War: Winter Assault. After one week of playing I was hooked on 40k. I started looking at the GW websites to find an army that I really enjoyed. I choose the Imperial Guard because I loved the fluff of the IG as well as the Cadian plastic models. Two years later I have a playable force of 7000 points worth of Cadian IG and am (still) planning on expanding to the Death Korps of Krieg (eventually). I cannot wait for Soulstorm to arrive so I have some new armies to destroy :evilgrin:

-Private Jon

Xgladar
14-02-2008, 02:11
Hey late into this thread, what are some of the better code/mods for DOW? as in different looking models etc?
cheers

currently i can only think of 4

Dawn of war expanded(dowxp): is basically just more units with more variety(the squad guys dont look like clones now)also brings some of them closer to the fluff(like termies being good in CC and ranged).game looks kinda like this
Dawn of war expanded (http://youtube.com/watch?v=MRiU2N03Rzs)

dawn of war firestorm: heavent actually played it,but they have a lot of new units and i hear the units also die faster now.consult this video to see what it looks like
FIRESTORM (http://youtube.com/watch?v=C3YWNmZa2fI)

Inquisition daemonhunt : adds a new faction-the grey knights.video again ^^
Inquisition daemonhunt (http://youtube.com/watch?v=lcijo-CE-v8)

Steel legion mod: adds the steel legion as a new faction.didnt play it yet
Steel legion (http://youtube.com/watch?v=3JH0ieZthUA)

witch hunters are still being beta tested,their mod is the "shiniest" to date,the models look like they were made by proffesionals
Tyranid mod is also in the works,i played it a bit and it was goooood.but they're still missing some models(like the carnifex and hellfex).and the mod is going too slow