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Nerhesi
13-02-2008, 19:17
Last night, a certain store manager (not mentioning any names) decided to play test his new-VC army against my Tzeentch Mortal list (Sans Dragon - waste of my points in my opinion - for a Tzeentch level 4 lord that is, to be stuck into combat).

IN ANY CASE... his army, with 1000 points of characters consisted of:

Biggy McBigster Lord Level 4 Wizard, generates 2 more dice, bonus to raising, and can heal a unit to more than its starting unit strength. +1 to casting when casting raise dead.

Vampire (stat line of an exalted chaos champ by the way), level 2 caster, generates 2 more dice..blah
2 more guys like the above, one of them with that +1 to casting raise dead.
1 Varghoul, one unit of ghouls, one unit of skeletons, one unit of wraiths, one corpse cart, one unit of wolves.

17 Casting dice.
7 dispel dice.
No scrolls

VS

3 Chariots of Tzeentch, undivided knight unit, 1 aspiring in one of the chariots, 2 sorcs mounted, 2 X 5 marauder horsemen, 5 X screamers, 1 lord on a disc with staff/eye

why am I here? Why am I posting this? I just wanted to demo one style of play that I ran into - which is the return of the raising cajibiilions a turn.

16 Casting dice
8 dispel dice
2 X scrolls

------

Now - at first glance, you can probably guess that I am one of his worst matchups. I am very mobile so I can pick my fights. My dispelling is amazing due to my ability to re-roll. While I have almost zero attrition value, my initial hit/wound dealing ability is pretty good.

However, what was ridiculous was the fact that he could raise.. with 17+ dice.. that is 17+ SINGLE times... rolling a 1 dice to cast the 4+ spell.

3+ on some characters.

I just wanted to bring it to people's attention as something to be ready for. VC's "raise" just got even better than 6th edition.

17 dice, you could actually potentially make them all 3+ raises, that is 12d6 of raised units, or 12 wounds healed into a vampire unit, or like 12d6+40(or more) zombies.. etc etc...

And this is based on average rolling. I had a hard time keeping up with ANY dispelling, and I re-roll every single die ..

All this not counting bound spells - 1 from the corpse cart, 1 from the book of raising or something, 1 from the book of Danse... yeah. Dirty.

Anyways - discuss. Was an interesting game though - I manage to squeeze off a tie...

(My magic btw.. contributed a whole.. 5 wounds total to the battle. Rerolls on aspiring helped once. I managed to red-fire a lone vampire and kill him. I really hate Tzeentch lore as is - so much dice.. so such crappy spells)

Sam W.

Malorian
13-02-2008, 19:26
They seem to me much like ogres with their magic phase, except they have way more dice and much better spells...

I've never liked the idea of the 1 dice cast (failing 1/3 of the time) but as you point out it obviously works.

Maybe we'll see more magic items that add to your dispel rolls... 50 points to get that +1 isn't that bad when it could stop you from getting swamped by 17 single dice spells...

Braad
13-02-2008, 19:31
If they roll all their spells on 1 dice, I don't see any miscasts happening...

But yeah, it sounds pretty awfull, I once played against VC with my O&G some years ago, and he already ended up with more then he started with.
I wasn't very good though, back then... But I can see the troubles here. You'd probably need to find some way to kick some vampire ass on turn two, to deny him the time to raise stuff.
Could be very interesting to play against though. Maybe I should see if I can find a VC player somewhere.

There is a staff in the common magic items list that gives +1 to dispel. Might be usefull.

Chaos Mortal
13-02-2008, 19:42
Waywatchers and hunter talon for me =)

Mephistofeles
13-02-2008, 19:44
Sorry if I am really off here, but can they cast the same spell more than ones per turn?

theunwantedbeing
13-02-2008, 19:46
At least we can see why the high elves got the "no magic phase for you" item.
The vortex shard I think.

snyggejygge
13-02-2008, 19:46
Itīs +1 to the amount of models raised, not to the spell, so itīs only 3+ if he has the Skullstaff, the storemanager lied to u...

Nerhesi
13-02-2008, 19:49
Usually for 50 points though - you are either getting 2 scrolls or like.. a power familiar style-item.

But yeah.. who knows.. maybe that item WILL see more use now. Just not sure how effective it is.

Voodoo Boyz
13-02-2008, 19:54
Yeah, this was the point of my previous thread (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127478).

You could literally take 4 units of 10 Skeletons for your Core Choices, and then 4 Vamps, all with the ability to raise skeletons over their starting size with +1 to CAST the power, and then have each of those four blocks upwards of 20 in the first turn. And with a corpse cart or two, you can get +1 guy each time you heal, and I think they stack, but I need to go look it up again.

It's absolutely crazy, in 2 turns you can raise over 500 points worth of models over your opponent, meaning there is almost no reason NOT to spend 1k points in characters, because you can raise all the grunts you want.

It's not unbeatable, stuff like Ogres, Minotaur Chaos, Demon Legion, or Khorne will make it all go away, but it's still incredibly hard against a lot of armies.

Nerhesi
13-02-2008, 19:55
Itīs +1 to the amount of models raised, not to the spell, so itīs only 3+ if he has the Skullstaff, the storemanager lied to u...

Nope. I was mistake. The skullstaff was with the one guy.

Except he generated 6 dice. Plus 2 pool. So that is 8 raises on a 3+, of the 17.

I know they can cast raise several times over and over without limit. I'm not sure if that extends to ALL necromancy spells (aka Danse and that..other thingy).

Sam W.

Jack of Blades
13-02-2008, 19:58
Huh? now I'm confused Voodoo. The Corpse Cart can be upgraded to make everything within 24'' or so get a +1 on any rolls to raise new stuff. They do stack so you don't even need the Skullstaff, just take a pair of Corpse Carts and give them Unholy Lodestones. Now you raise new things on 3+, and trust me if you want to go heavy on magic you will be able to do so.

Riftsower
13-02-2008, 20:02
Itīs +1 to the amount of models raised, not to the spell, so itīs only 3+ if he has the Skullstaff, the storemanager lied to u...

The rule adds +1 to cast when raising that type. For example: Summon ghouls would add +1 to your cast when summoning ghouls NOT +1 to the amount summoned. So it would subsequently cast if you still rolled a 3 due to the +1 when that character is handling ghouls, but 4+ on anything else. The army book is very clear on this one.

snyggejygge
13-02-2008, 20:06
Thatīs not what they said in the other thread...

Yade
13-02-2008, 20:08
Sorry if I am really off here, but can they cast the same spell more than ones per turn?

Yes Mephisto, they can cast any spell they have any number of times per turn as long as they have the dice.

Corpse carts reduce enemy casting by 1 per corpse cart within 24 inches. meaning if you have many of them it could result in some tough situations. I plan on using 4 of them and that would make my opponents at -4 to cast every spell within 24 inches of my horde.

Zoolander
13-02-2008, 20:14
Jack, it's only 6", not 24.

Meph, they can cast 3 spells as many times as they have power dice for. It's only 3 spells, Yade: IoNehek, Raise Dead, and Danse Macabre. The Corpse Cart has to purchase that ability, and I'm not sure it's cumalitive. Even if it were, that's a lot of points (a dragon's worth) put into stopping a magic phase. It will leave you very open to attack.

OP, your opponent was playing an illegal list. He doesn't have 3 core for starters. Only zombies, ghouls, and skellies count for core minimum. If he has 3 vamps with Master of the Dark Arts, then that's 18 PD, but that's 50 pts, so he can't have any other powers, including Master of the Dead (+1 to raise). Plus with so many characters, you can easily overrun his very small army. Unless you're dwarves. Anyone else can get across the table in time to cause him trouble.

Riftsower, you are wrong. Master of the Dead, and the other like powers give you +1 to the amount RAISED, not to cast, as well as allowing you to go above starting unit size. This is the only way to increase units in size other than zombies. The Skullstaff gives +1 to cast/dispel.

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-02-2008, 20:15
Vampire (stat line of an exalted chaos champ by the way), level 2 caster, generates 2 more dice..blah



He needs to read the book better as that is not possible with a vampire. It is way, way over his bloodline limit.

You can have the +2 PD power on a vampire, but then you can't have anything else, you certainly can't be a lvl 2 wizard as well. And as for sticking more bloodline powers on top, forget it.

Voodoo Boyz
13-02-2008, 20:15
Huh? now I'm confused Voodoo. The Corpse Cart can be upgraded to make everything within 24'' or so get a +1 on any rolls to raise new stuff. They do stack so you don't even need the Skullstaff, just take a pair of Corpse Carts and give them Unholy Lodestones. Now you raise new things on 3+, and trust me if you want to go heavy on magic you will be able to do so.

I thought the one corpse cart upgrade gave you +1 model on your rolls to raise stuff (ie. heal D6+1 models). I could have read it wrong.

The point is that with the bloodline power, they can use one dice to cast the healing spell on a 3+, and that they can raise units over their starting strength. That's without a Corpse Cart, or a Staff, that's just from the cheap little Bloodline Power.

Yade
13-02-2008, 20:17
Jack, it's only 6", not 24.

Meph, they can cast 3 spells as many times as they have power dice for.

OP, your opponent was playing an illegal list. He doesn't have 3 core for starters. Only zombies, ghouls, and skellies count for core minimum. If he has 3 vamps with Master of the Dark Arts, then that's 18 PD, but that's 50 pts, so he can't have any other powers, including Master of the Dead (+1 to raise). Plus with so many characters, you can easily overrun his very small army. Unless you're dwarves. Anyone else can get across the table in time to cause him trouble.

Only 2 core required in 1000 pt list, correct?

Nerhesi
13-02-2008, 20:21
Listen up folks. List was legal.. I may have listed some MINOR illegalities but that would be my fault.

List was legal. Topic of conversation? 17+ power dice at a 4+ to raise... 8 power dice of which will be raising as a 3+

Zoolander
13-02-2008, 20:27
Only 2 core required in 1000 pt list, correct?

Then he can't have 4 characters. Either way, his list is wrong.


List was legal. Topic of conversation? 17+ power dice at a 4+ to raise... 8 power dice of which will be raising as a 3+

He can only have 6 PD to raise with, not 8. Everyone else is at 4 PD at 4+. But that's still pretty nasty.

Although I find it a little ironic to have a 17 PD Tzeetnch player complaining that his opponent has too many PD.

Shamfrit
13-02-2008, 20:35
He never said it was 1000, he said he had 1000 worth of characters, the size of the army clearly would point to a 2k list.

Manny Xero
13-02-2008, 22:20
Reading over what happened I would love to take a shot at this army. I think the key to beating it would be sniping those characters and then dealing with the other units. Stats of an Chaos Champ does make that task seem daunting but CR doesn't care about your stats (except Ld ofcourse) and a magic missile or 2 can soften up any character.

Nerhesi
13-02-2008, 22:49
Then he can't have 4 characters. Either way, his list is wrong.



He can only have 6 PD to raise with, not 8. Everyone else is at 4 PD at 4+. But that's still pretty nasty.

Although I find it a little ironic to have a 17 PD Tzeetnch player complaining that his opponent has too many PD.

8 PD. He generates 6 plus 2 pool - no?

Difference is my lore blows - and his is amazing. Tzeentch is widely known as the tons of power dice and crap to use it on.

Also - I am not complaining, I am just pointing out what you should get used to seeing. It won't be a very "niche" army list to see 15+ PD like that.

Sam W.

Nerhesi
13-02-2008, 22:54
Now.. imagine that much power dice vs an army that doesn't field 8 re-rollable dispel dice, and 2 scrolls.

The possibilities are endless as to the power of this list. Yeah sure.. charge my one unit - destroy it! Sure over run into my other unit.

On your turn, I use one of my billion casts to bring up a US 5 unit, then one of my several other casts to danse it in.

Sweet! So much for that! 4 point combat resolution swing!

Because god forbid you ever actually have to fight for more than ONE round with a VC army now.. you will simply NEVER leave.

Sam W.

Archangel_Ruined
13-02-2008, 23:32
The undead are filth, the old list was bad enough, especially at lower points... Anyway, VC armies require kamikaze tactics, you have to kill the general. That doesn't sound too bad until you realise there is every chance the head honcho just happens to be a super human tooled up nutjob... Once you get bogged down it's game over, they'll raise more than you can consistently kill and with rank bonuses and fear causing you wont stick around too long, so you have to aim for the turn 3 win by virtue of a pointy stake.

Zoolander
14-02-2008, 00:11
8 PD. He generates 6 plus 2 pool - no?

Difference is my lore blows - and his is amazing. Tzeentch is widely known as the tons of power dice and crap to use it on.

Also - I am not complaining, I am just pointing out what you should get used to seeing. It won't be a very "niche" army list to see 15+ PD like that.

Sam W.

This is true Sam. The two from the kitty could go anywhere, so I wasn't counting them, but you're right, the general could use them every turn.

The VC list is amazing, but I like the Tzeentch spells, too. I have a lot of fun blowing units up, causing them to attack themselves ( my last game I caused 10 out of 15 Elf Swordmasters to impale themselves - that was great), etc. It certainly doesn't blow, especially considering the Staff of Change. That pretty much ensures all your spells are getting off. Not as nice as Necromancy, but not bad either.

At least you can't take a Vampire Lord anymore... god I miss my strigoi with 4 wounds, 6 attacks, hatred, regeneration, and a 5+ ward. Sigh.

Heimlich
14-02-2008, 00:24
Well, since the book isn't for public use yet, the manager gets to do whatever he wants to.

Jagosaja
14-02-2008, 12:42
Actually, rules go like this:

Skullstaff gives +1 both to casting and dispelling rolls.
Master powers give ALSO +1 to casting. I know that it was written in the beginning that it is to number raised, but it was corrected very soon buy the guy who wrote it. So, +1 to casting.
Corpse Cart has Hellish Vigor 6" bound spell lvl 3 by default. It can be upgraded in one of two ways: to incure -1 penalty on enemy casting in 24", which is cumulative, or to enable casters in 6" to make 1 more model per casting (or at units in 6", not sure).

Power that enables +2PD per round is called Master of The Dark Arts and uses whole hero bloodline power allowance. The power that gives you magic level up is called Dark Acolyte and uses more than half of a bloodline power allowance. So, it is not possible for a hero to have both powers, only for a lord.

It is possible for your opponent to field 17 PD, but not how you have written, or how he fielded. "Book of raising or something" as a bound item does not exist, the only thing that has similar abilities is Sceptre De Noirot, which is not bound item but it allows one to raise more zombies when summoning new units with Raise Dead spell.

And the list was illegal. If he fielded 1000 pts in characters, having 4 of them, he must have played at least a 2000 points game, where it is required to field at least 3 core choice units. According to the rules, as Zoolander has said, Corpse Cart, Bat Swarms and Dire Wolves do not count towards core choice minimum count, so he needed to field another core unit of infantry.

buttematron
14-02-2008, 16:04
This is hilarious.

Not only was the VC list illegal in almost every conceivable way, but with your list you should have stomped it into the ground.

Tiamat
14-02-2008, 16:20
I think it balances, because by and large their infantry is pretty rubbish and they're paying through the nose for the really hard stuff.

I mean lets face it, every time a new army comes along, being new we haven't yet had the chance to get completly familiar with the quirks of the book and so find our funky counters.

Personally I can't wait to have a crack at one! Go Jaguar Charm uber magic sword wealding psycho Old Blood! Get that General!

Nedar
14-02-2008, 16:49
Did the manager eve have the book on hand? I've played three games without the book, from memory (I had a chance to look through it beforehand) and I can tell you my lists were at least legal.

If you're remembering things like that, he had to have been just plain abusing his list. MotDA (+2 PD) is, like said Jagosaja said: all of a hero's alotment. I'm quite sure it's also HIS PD, so it doesn't go into the pool and only to him (I forgot to check this last time I had book in hand). So if he had 3 heros with this power he'd have 3 level 1 casters with 3 PD each, that could not add to his skeleton units unless they were under the starting number. He could only raise up zombies with them, and danse units around if he rolled the spells (He'd have 1 single spell for each hero at that, plus IoN).

I think you got cheezed either way unless you just plain misunderstood what he was running. And again: ONLY skeletons, zombies, and ghouls count as core. That is it. So three of those units in a 2000pt game are required.

Fellblade
14-02-2008, 16:53
Short version is, either you were mistaken about the list or it was invalid. The math doesn't add up.

Zoolander
14-02-2008, 18:59
Master powers give ALSO +1 to casting. I know that it was written in the beginning that it is to number raised, but it was corrected very soon buy the guy who wrote it. So, +1 to casting.

I so wish this was true. It's not. It only allows you to increase numbers beyond their starting value for skeletons, ghouls, or bats/wolves/bat swarms, and it adds +1 to the number raised.

Jag, he can actually have 20 PD. Raising the magic level doesn't come out of the power allottment. Each vampire could have MotDA. So that's 6 for the count and 4 for each vampire, which totals 18, plus two for general use is 20. But that's focusing a lot on one aspect - raising the dead. They can't do much else. And as you pointed out, the vampires can't have any other powers, so is it really worth it?

Murderous Monkey
14-02-2008, 19:12
I so wish this was true. It's not. It only allows you to increase numbers beyond their starting value for skeletons, ghouls, or bats/wolves/bat swarms, and it adds +1 to the number raised.

I suggest you recheck the wording on page 83. It is very clear indeed that you get a +1 to cast the spell with respect to the appropriate unit.


Jag, he can actually have 20 PD. Raising the magic level doesn't come out of the power allottment. Each vampire could have MotDA. So that's 6 for the count and 4 for each vampire, which totals 18, plus two for general use is 20. But that's focusing a lot on one aspect - raising the dead. They can't do much else. And as you pointed out, the vampires can't have any other powers, so is it really worth it?

Only a Vampire Count can purchase 1 additional magic level without using up Vampiric Power points, so a hero level Vampire cannot be a level 2 wizard with an additional 2 power dice. as well. Neither can a Vampire have the 2 bonus power dice AND the ability to increase a specific unit type beyond starting strength.

This is still a plausible tactic, epecially with a few bound spells lurking about the magic item list, but not as potent as people seem to be thinking at the moment. Mind you, a level 4 wizard and three level 2 wizards casting Invocation on a 3+ is definitely going to be intimidating on the first turn!

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-02-2008, 19:25
Ah, wondered when this would start.

First of all, I would like to point out the fact that the vast majority of Undead units would struggle to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Your army was ideal for being taken apart. Chariots are of limited use against Undead, as all he needs is a single remaining Skellie and the unit is back, landing said chariot in pretty deep shtook.

Likewise, Chaos Knights are Shock Cavalry, meant to clobber and punch through units in a single turn. Bog them down, and they start to struggle.

Vampires kind of depend on raising stuff, and pay a fair premium in their points to do so. I mean, a Skellie costs the same as a Dark Elf with Spear and Shield....no prize for guessing who I'd back in a straight fight.

The trick to fighting VCs and indeed TKs, is to simply accept their Magic Phase is going to be horrendous, and plan your attack round it. Pick off what you want him to heal. Concentrate on the Skeletons for a start. They wield quite a few VPs, and aren't that hard to nobble. Try to steer him away from using Van Hels too often, replacing the need to move with the need to have something resembling an army left on the board. From his deployment, you could gain a pretty decent insight to his plans.

Attempt surgical raids against Units harbouring the useful but shockingly squishy Necromancers. Your then denying him extra spells, and bagging yourself easy victory points. DO NOT LET THE GAME DEVOLVE TO ATTRITION. I'm sure your aware that being able to replace lost models means attrition is a game they can most definitely win.

Be aggresive. Gang up on units. Unless it's a Zombie unit, it won't be back if you can kill/crumble every last one of them. Like Ogres and TK, you need to decide not what your going to let through, but what you intend to stop.

And the biggest weakness Vampires face? The cost of characters. It does indeed take effort to knock one of it's perch, but the pressure release, and of course the VPs you gain make it more than worth it!

Zoolander
14-02-2008, 19:50
Oh thanks Monkey! You are correct. They changed that before release. Too bad, because +1 number raised is vastly better than +1 to cast when the spell is already a 4 to cast and 3 always fails.

Also, I was wrong about Vamps. I thought you could raise them to level 2, but I just checked, you are correct. You do have to use Dark Acolyte to gain a level. Thanks for the corrections, my bad!

So that means his max PD output would be 17 (6+3+3+3+2) as was stated. Sorry folks!

Riftsower
14-02-2008, 20:44
That might be something I missed. Can basic vamps be upgraded to level 2 casters without the use of a bloodline power? I know counts can go to 3 then 4 with the power for sure.

athamas
14-02-2008, 20:47
no, its only a natural 1 or 2 that always fails...


this does mean with the master power and scull staff, all sucsessfull castings are effectivly 5+...

Havock
14-02-2008, 21:39
About the tzeentch lore: red fire needs S d6+1, Green Fire needs to work on immune to psychology (all the slaanesh spells do...), spell number 4 needs 24" range, and spell number 6 has to go alltogether in favour of something more worthwhile. Like picking a spell from any lore, or any other crazy **** :p

On topic: squared off against the new VC as well, chosen knights sort of failed to do a single wound (really crappy dice), he killed one, outnumbered, feared and I auto-broke. Damn MoT.

Fellblade
14-02-2008, 21:45
Jag, he can actually have 20 PD. Raising the magic level doesn't come out of the power allottment. Each vampire could have MotDA. So that's 6 for the count and 4 for each vampire, which totals 18, plus two for general use is 20.Unless I read the rulebook wrong, that isn't true since non-lord vampires can only raise their magic level by buying a bloodline power. I didn't see an upgrade option for it. If there was, you'd be able to run a level 4 lord and three level 3s.

The drawback to the +2 dice power for normal vamps is they'll never get better than a 4+ to cast and can only ever throw 2 dice at spells. There's more flexability with the level 2 vamp since he can take a master power so he casts on 3s, or in a pinch can take a 3d6 shot at one of the bigger spells.

Zoolander
14-02-2008, 21:58
no, its only a natural 1 or 2 that always fails...


I don't have my book on me Athamas, but I'm pretty sure the magic number in 7th ed. is 3... someone can check that for us if they feel inclined.

jullevi
14-02-2008, 22:27
I don't have my book on me Athamas, but I'm pretty sure the magic number in 7th ed. is 3... someone can check that for us if they feel inclined.

The rule is "Minimum 3 to cast". Only the rolls of 1 and 2 are considered failures regardless of modifiers.

Yade
14-02-2008, 22:28
Regardless of modifiers? Including +1 to cast rolls?

rathnutt1
14-02-2008, 23:07
this thread is riddled with mistakes and innacuracies. anyone seeking accurate info about the new book should go elsewhere.

>The master raising powers add +1 to the NUMBER OF (creature) RAISED... NOT THE CASTING ROLL!

>You can't have +2 Power Dice AND +1 Magic Level on a hero level character, so either you misunderstood what he told you, or he cheated you... hard. Also, the +1 Magic Level power DOES take up points from the allotted Blood Line powers, you can not make a level 2 vampire hero without the power

>He also clearly didn't have enough Core Units. He had 2 units counting toward the minimum of 3 (skeles and ghouls) and a corpse cart and wolves that do not count toward the minimum

>The +2 dice power only applies to the vampire with the power, its not for the pool

>He could have potentially had 6PD for the lord, 2PD for the army, 3PD for each hero vamp 9PD = 17PD, so I think you probably misunderstood him when he said the hero vampires were all level 2

People writing responses should actually READ the book before they post incorrect things and confuse everyone.

Fellblade
14-02-2008, 23:54
Regardless of modifiers? Including +1 to cast rolls?Yes. So getting a +2 to cast a spell with a target number of 4 will still fail if you roll a 2 (+2 = 4); however, the payoff is on the other end of the spectrum when a single die can generate a spell that goes off on an 8 making it more difficult to stop.

athamas
15-02-2008, 00:05
People writing responses should actually READ the book before they post incorrect things and confuse everyone.

yeah, if you are going to make coments please either know the book or have it very close at hand,



the +2 to the casting roll from the opower and staff will prove very nasty, any raising of the chosen unit will be 5+ if cast, with an average csting value of 6.5... meaning that if cast your opponat will need to expend 2 dice to have a reasonable chance of stopping it... ie they will probably let any 7-8 rolls through and just try to stopp the lower ones...

Nedar
15-02-2008, 01:24
this thread is riddled with mistakes and innacuracies. anyone seeking accurate info about the new book should go elsewhere.

>The master raising powers add +1 to the NUMBER OF (creature) RAISED... NOT THE CASTING ROLL!

>You can't have +2 Power Dice AND +1 Magic Level on a hero level character, so either you misunderstood what he told you, or he cheated you... hard. Also, the +1 Magic Level power DOES take up points from the allotted Blood Line powers, you can not make a level 2 vampire hero without the power

>He also clearly didn't have enough Core Units. He had 2 units counting toward the minimum of 3 (skeles and ghouls) and a corpse cart and wolves that do not count toward the minimum

>The +2 dice power only applies to the vampire with the power, its not for the pool

>He could have potentially had 6PD for the lord, 2PD for the army, 3PD for each hero vamp 9PD = 17PD, so I think you probably misunderstood him when he said the hero vampires were all level 2

People writing responses should actually READ the book before they post incorrect things and confuse everyone.

Aside from the first point, these are all 100% correct.

I could have sworn The Master powers were to the cast roll not the model count. I'll defer my absolute position on this till I can look at the book again, but I still i'm almost certain it's casting roll not model roll...however, I'd really like it to be model roll so my Count Mannfred skeleton battery will be that much better (3+ to cast IoN on my spear skelys, with a minimum of 4 models: d6+1 for power+2 for corpse carts)

Note: Unholy Loadstone does indeed stack (+1 to models/wounds within 6" of CC). Stick one near knights you want to heal and have fun!

Fellblade
15-02-2008, 03:29
I could have sworn The Master powers were to the cast roll not the model countThat is correct.


Note: Unholy Loadstone does indeed stack (+1 to models/wounds within 6" of CC). Stick one near knights you want to heal and have fun!If by stack you mean it adds +1 to the die you roll for summoning, yes. Multiple loadstones do not combine for a bonus greater than +1. It says something to the effect of if at least one loadstone is within whatever range than add +1. And by knights, you can only be refering to black knights. Bloodknights have the rule "vampire" which is excluded from the loadstone's effect.

Nedar
15-02-2008, 04:09
Aw, right on the Blood Knights..."...can only ever gain one wound per spell." or something like that. I just find it silly that Black Knights only gain a single wound anyway instead of D3 or something.

As for the Unholy Loadstone, i'm quite sure it says something like "anytime a unit is healed via IoN within 6" it gains +1 wound." The actual words escape me as it's been a week since i've read it; however I specifically remember reading the effect to see if it stacked and was happy to find it did. I reserve the right to be wrong though.

Fellblade
15-02-2008, 04:41
Balefire is cumulative, maybe that's what you're thinking of? 6 carts with balefire thing means wizards casting in that zone are at a -6 penalty. Of course, that's also 600pts in not-really-core models.

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-02-2008, 05:03
the +2 to the casting roll from the opower and staff will prove very nasty, any raising of the chosen unit will be 5+ if cast, with an average csting value of 6.5... meaning that if cast your opponat will need to expend 2 dice to have a reasonable chance of stopping it... ie they will probably let any 7-8 rolls through and just try to stopp the lower ones...


Yeah, but odds are that you are looking at needing two dice to reliably dispel anything cast on 5 or more anyway, meaning that with just master powers the only thing that is likely to be attempted dispelled on a single die is if you roll a 3. Not sure that's worth paying for the Skull Staff.

Fellblade
15-02-2008, 06:58
To each his own.

Synthesis
15-02-2008, 07:16
this thread is riddled with mistakes and innacuracies. anyone seeking accurate info about the new book should go elsewhere.

>The master raising powers add +1 to the NUMBER OF (creature) RAISED... NOT THE CASTING ROLL!

People writing responses should actually READ the book before they post incorrect things and confuse everyone.

Let's deal with the inaccuracy here shall we, just to put these damnable rumours to bed so people can move on from bickering over which is correct.

- The Master powers provide '+1 to the casting roll when casting Invocation of Nehek on this unit' (I.e. it's now 3+ instead of 4+ for the chosen Mastery), and that's coming directly from the book in front of me

That is taken directly from the book, so there shouldn't be any confusion...

Penitent Engine
15-02-2008, 07:29
Hmmm... this thread is chasing its tail...

I just want to ask one thing:
Necromancer on unupgraded Corpse Cart. Can it be done, and if so what's thae advantage for the NEcromancer (aside from being in a big squisy layer of ablative shielding?

speedygogo
15-02-2008, 07:57
The only advantage that I can see is that they are cheap, costing only about 50 pts a model, while a basic vampire starts are 100pts. What I think is going to be the most broken list of the new VC is the ethereal army. You can buy a blood line vampire power that makes them ethereal, combined with spirit host, banshees and a black coach that absorbs casting dice, it should be a formidable army type.

HalfEvil333
15-02-2008, 08:49
Hmmm... this thread is chasing its tail...

I just want to ask one thing:
Necromancer on unupgraded Corpse Cart. Can it be done, and if so what's thae advantage for the NEcromancer (aside from being in a big squisy layer of ablative shielding?

My understanding is a little flawed, since I don't have the new book in my hands to double check, but someone else on this forum pointed out that a Necro mounted on a Corpse Cart becomes a character with a monsterous mount, since the Corpse Cart counts as a monster and not a chariot. So one advantage is that it can now join units, and since it has a unit strength below 5 (Corpse Cart only has a US of 3), it can't be targetted, unless its also a Large Target, which I'm not sure if it is or not.

Other than that, I havn't seen to much of an advantage to mounting a Nercro on one.

Yade
15-02-2008, 15:49
My understanding is a little flawed, since I don't have the new book in my hands to double check, but someone else on this forum pointed out that a Necro mounted on a Corpse Cart becomes a character with a monsterous mount, since the Corpse Cart counts as a monster and not a chariot. So one advantage is that it can now join units, and since it has a unit strength below 5 (Corpse Cart only has a US of 3), it can't be targetted, unless its also a Large Target, which I'm not sure if it is or not.

Other than that, I havn't seen to much of an advantage to mounting a Nercro on one.

An advantage to having him on there is to protect him from shooting and magic which will randomize against the mount, 1-4 the mount 5-6 the character. He can sit between many units of undead and be protected in this way.

As far as I remember they cannot join units of zombies, which means a single necro on the cart is going to need the extra combat protection. If I remember correctly the corpse cart gets a large number of attacks.

Zoolander
15-02-2008, 16:31
An advantage to having him on there is to protect him from shooting and magic which will randomize against the mount, 1-4 the mount 5-6 the character. He can sit between many units of undead and be protected in this way.

As far as I remember they cannot join units of zombies, which means a single necro on the cart is going to need the extra combat protection. If I remember correctly the corpse cart gets a large number of attacks.

Halfevil is correct. The only real advantage to putting in the CC is that you can hide him in units. The disadvantage is that if you don't, then he becomes a more tempting target. He can hide a lot better in a unit of skellies than on a CC on it's own.

Yade, yes it can hide somewhat from enemy shooting, but war machines on hills can see over enemy units, and if you put a character in a CC, it will get targeted immediately. I would put him in a unit of skellies if you can. Yes, it does have a large number of attacks (2d6), but they are at zombie strength (2). But at least they aren't impact hits - it gets 2d6 every round, which is nice.

Necromancer2
15-02-2008, 17:50
can't have a lord in a 1000pts either right??

Emeraldw
15-02-2008, 18:01
can't have a lord in a 1000pts either right??

Nope, must be at least 2k before lord choices become available.

Nerhesi
15-02-2008, 20:29
This is hilarious.

Not only was the VC list illegal in almost every conceivable way, but with your list you should have stomped it into the ground.

You are hilarious!

Wait no, you're not.

It wasn't illegal - I did not give a full accounting of it. The ENTIRE point of this post, which you've missed, was the fact that he can have 16, 17, whatever dice ALL at 3+ to cast invocation and all allowing him to raise a unit above starting strength.

You forget, I have to take leadership checks to charge - Fear - and even with a LD 9 from the general, it still means I have a 1 in 6 of failing a charge.

I charged with 3 chariots into a unit of zombies. 1 Failed the charge. Still destroyed and over-ran into a unit ghouls - which held for 3 close combat turns (2 game turns).

Toughness 4 ghouls... Excuse me if I could only stop a couple of raises there because I was trying to stop Dansing a vamp with a great weapon into my chariot flanks, or corpse cart bound spells, or danse bound spells.

But hey - feel free to actually play a game against them - and understand the point of the post before shooting your mouth off.

Sam W.

Emeraldw
15-02-2008, 20:55
If they do allow going over the cap thats annoying. The balancing act probably comes from the fact that Skeletons and others all blow in basic battle. Most CC troops could easily win combat by a fair chunk but I can see where all that magic is going to really make it a pain in the rear. Especially with Dispel dices being so little generally. For me I can win in general combat with them and shoot them to my hearts content. I'm not sure how I feel about it or what the implications will be till I personally try out the new VC's.

Fellblade
15-02-2008, 23:15
It wasn't illegal - I did not give a full accounting of it. The ENTIRE point of this post, which you've missed, was the fact that he can have 16, 17, whatever dice ALL at 3+ to cast invocation and all allowing him to raise a unit above starting strength.
No, no he can't.
He can have 12 dice that cast on 3+ in a 2000pt list, sometimes a 13th but that's it.
Two in the pool, level 4 lord with two bonus dice and +1 summoning bloodline, and three level 2 (no bonus dice) vampires with the summoning bloodline.
2+6+2+2+2 = 12
You can toss the black peripet in there to save one more, but that's it. It is in fact illegal to have a normal vampire with the +2 power dice bloodline power and the +1 to summoning rolls bloodline power.

Nedar
15-02-2008, 23:25
No, no he can't.
He can have 12 dice that cast on 3+ in a 2000pt list, sometimes a 13th but that's it.
Two in the pool, level 4 lord with two bonus dice and +1 summoning bloodline, and three level 2 (no bonus dice) vampires with the summoning bloodline.
2+6+2+2+2 = 12
You can toss the black peripet in there to save one more, but that's it. It is in fact illegal to have a normal vampire with the +2 power dice bloodline power and the +1 to summoning rolls bloodline power.

What he said.


If he ran an army with 17 PD and casting IoN on 3+ he was running an illegal list (at ~2000pts at least).

The new VC magic phase is a beast. It allows you to flat out control the magic of almost any game, since you have so many spells to throw out with highish values requiring a large dice investment to stop. Needed at least 2 dice to reliably dispell IoN is great when you have 2+ Corpse Cart bound spells, and any items you took with bound spells on them (Staff of Damnation on spear skelys, BoA of course, Hand of Dust is nuts, etc).

I love how our magic works now. I used to not be able to do squat with magic even with a Necrarch vampire army, and it made me hate magic all the more every game I played. Now I can play the VC how i've always seen them (hordes of skeletons backed by a vampire or three) and not have to worry about wasting a double 6 roll on a 3+ IoN, or blowing up my general trying to cast the simplest spell.

Slaan's might be unable to miscast, but vampires used a certain way have next to zero risk of doing it ;) eat that High Elves!

Zoolander
16-02-2008, 07:50
No, no he can't.
He can have 12 dice that cast on 3+ in a 2000pt list, sometimes a 13th but that's it.
Two in the pool, level 4 lord with two bonus dice and +1 summoning bloodline, and three level 2 (no bonus dice) vampires with the summoning bloodline.
2+6+2+2+2 = 12
You can toss the black peripet in there to save one more, but that's it. It is in fact illegal to have a normal vampire with the +2 power dice bloodline power and the +1 to summoning rolls bloodline power.

We have a winner folks! Sorry Sam, either you don't know his list and PD very well, are making this game up, he cheated, or he doesn't know the VC very well. Chose your poison.

Latro
16-02-2008, 08:37
We have a winner folks! Sorry Sam, either you don't know his list and PD very well, are making this game up, he cheated, or he doesn't know the VC very well. Chose your poison.

Who cares, the point was the new relentless type of magic phase the VC can produce ... and not if that list was legal or not.


:cool:

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
16-02-2008, 10:13
2+6+2+2+2 = 12


sorry to be an a** but 2 + 6 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 14 [check it out :P]

dude your math is bit off:eek::angel:

El'Flashman
19-02-2008, 15:44
So.... er let me get this straight. The VC have a special rule or something that overrules the BRB's ruling that each spell caster can only attempt to cast each spell he has once? Considering what I'm seeing here that seems a little overpowered. Can anyone confirm this?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
19-02-2008, 15:47
So.... er let me get this straight. The VC have a special rule or something that overrules the BRB's ruling that each spell caster can only attempt to cast each spell he has once? Considering what I'm seeing here that seems a little overpowered. Can anyone confirm this?

Only on three spells. Invocation of Nehek, Van Hels Danse Macabre, and another, low level raising spell.

As none of these are directly offensive, it's not as bad as some might think.

And indeed, like the Insubstantial Steed rule allowing Black Knights to ignore terrain, is actually an old rule which was much missed from the previous book.

I have no real problem with it myself.

Also, with Necromancers now being limited to level 1, it makes them rather useful beyond Scroll Caddying. They can have multiple spells, each of which can be cast more than once a turn, but each is extremely limited in the number of power dice they can have.

And where abouts in T Wells are you? I'm currently sitting at work in Venture Studios on Camden Road. Fancy a game of Warhammer sometime?

El'Flashman
19-02-2008, 16:19
Thanks Doc... needless to say I think I'll be getting the book when it comes out. Oh an I live work in the Borough. Near the poor end of town though... High Brooms to be exact but I could meet you for a game if you like. PM me.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
19-02-2008, 17:18
Thanks Doc... needless to say I think I'll be getting the book when it comes out. Oh an I live work in the Borough. Near the poor end of town though... High Brooms to be exact but I could meet you for a game if you like. PM me.

Absolutely! My group and I are starting a club soon too!

Admiral Samuel Eden
19-02-2008, 17:50
The new list isn't overpowered, its just different. Its good. However, if you ook at how bad the old vc were this has brought them into the game. All you needed before was reasonable Ld and movement. Or cannon either way.

Sarael
20-02-2008, 09:25
It wasn't illegal - I did not give a full accounting of it. The ENTIRE point of this post, which you've missed, was the fact that he can have 16, 17, whatever dice ALL at 3+ to cast invocation and all allowing him to raise a unit above starting strength.

Sam W.

Unless the info I have is incorrect, at 2K points, VC armies can have 14 dice raising on a 3+, or 17 dice, 9 of which raise on a 4+, 8 of which on 3+.

Whichever power gives you the magic level (Acolyte?) combined with the ability to increase base unit size and +1 to cast the spell, is the best bet IMO. You lose 3 dice, but make 6 of them 1/6 more successful (and able to increase unit size, as opposed to just healing damage already done).

The all caster VC army has one glaring weakness though: Melee. Challenge those CASTER Vampires with any melee character worth his points and watch the skeletons fall apart.

As with any undead army, you want to try to get it crumbling ASAP. Go for the general/hierophant!

DeathlessDraich
20-02-2008, 11:25
IN ANY CASE... his army, with 1000 points of characters consisted of:

Biggy McBigster Lord Level 4 Wizard, generates 2 more dice, bonus to raising, and can heal a unit to more than its starting unit strength. +1 to casting when casting raise dead.

17 Casting dice.
7 dispel dice.
No scrolls

VS

3 Chariots of Tzeentch, undivided knight unit, 1 aspiring in one of the chariots, 2 sorcs mounted, 2 X 5 marauder horsemen, 5 X screamers, 1 lord on a disc with staff/eye

why am I here? Why am I posting this? I just wanted to demo one style of play that I ran into - which is the return of the raising cajibiilions a turn.

16 Casting dice
8 dispel dice
2 X scrolls



Roughly sounds like a 2000 pt battle.

I can see how Tzeentch can generate 16 dice - 5 marks of T, 2 lvl 2, 1 lvl 1 and 1 lvl 4 plus 2 pool.

I do not have access to the VC book unlike some of the fortunate here but could someone who does explain
How did VC generate 17 dice in a 2000 pt battle?

Oberon
20-02-2008, 11:32
level 3 lord with extra bloodline power, +2 power dice bloodline power, and raise more skeletons-power=6 dice, then 3x level 1 vamp with +2 power dice power=9 dice, add in the pool dice and you get 17 dice. True, only the lord can raise on 3+, but hey 4+ many times is "fun" too. Those vamps could carry 2 power stone each if they wanted to...

DeathlessDraich
20-02-2008, 16:33
Thanks Oberon
4 attempts of the default spell and 1 from the last spell per magic phase using an average of 3 dice for each spell:
Against 7 dispel dice and 3 scrolls, thats
About 9 successful spells cast against 2 expected miscasts per battle

Pretty impressive odds.

Zoolander
20-02-2008, 19:26
Admiral Sam has it right. Although the VC magic is much more impressive, and we got some improved troops, the vampires themselves are weaker. It's not so easy to get a group of level 2 casters to support the count, either, since Necros are only level 1, and vampires need to spend most of their valuable power points to reach level 2, meaning they can't take much else. The old vampires had inherent abiltiies that they got for free. Strigoi got hatred, +1 attack and a ward save. Blood Dragons used to wear full plate and gained +2 WS. Now to get that, you have to pay points, which is totally fine, but what that means is that if you wanted to max out your magic potential, you are a sitting duck to other characters in duels. That's a VC weakness. Here's another: With the magic and army focussing more on blocks of skellies, ghouls and zombies as opposed to all bats or wolves, we find a slow moving army of rather sucky units that can be outmaneuvered. Also, most of the spells received a 6" decrease in range, meaning to support those units, they have to be closer to the general than before (12"). It all makes sense, and when put together, if you look at it, there are definite weaknesses of this army that can be exploited.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
20-02-2008, 19:33
But, you're not really, are you? I mean, a tooled up Empire Character is still going to struggle, and a tooled up Chaos Lord, Savage Orc Warboss or anyone riding Dragon was always going to make a big splutchy mess on the carpet.

What you have gained, is no particular downside for specialising. A modern day 'Necrarch' now has increased fighty potential, and better magic potential thrown in.

Having seperate allowances for Bloodlines and Items really means there is no inherent weakness to specialising a character....

Zoolander
20-02-2008, 20:10
You got me there Doc. The necrarch is one bloodline that actually got better in this version. That's mostly because the magic got so much better. I think the other bloodlines got weaker. Especially considering that you can't take a Vampire Lord any more, you have to take a 3 wound 4 attack Count with one less WS. Can you even make a strigoi like I used to, for example? A flying, regenerating, hatred filled beast with 6 attacks and a 5+ ward? No. You can get fairly close if you combine the right items + powers, but I haven't been able to match that in my attempts. How about that lahmia with all those mind control abilties? No, most of them are gone. Don't get me wrong, I love the new VC army. But the vamps themselves are a tad weaker. Which means they are a easier to kill, having one less wound than before, and not having some of the resilence they had before, which means they are a great focal point for any attacks. If I were facing a VC army, I would head straight for the Count, challenge him, and watch the army fall apart. Even empire generals are a scary thing to the new counts, which never was the case. And don't get me started on the popemobile. :-)

Finnigan2004
21-02-2008, 04:07
I'm not overly worried about the new vampire counts. How tough can an army be when they only manage a draw in their inaugural White Dwarf battle report-- in those circumstances, it's basically equivalent to a massacre against.

Fellblade
21-02-2008, 05:59
You do know that they probably play and report hundreds of battles per game per year but only 12 (total) manage to get published in WD, right? They simply pick a report they believe will best showcase whatever they wish to feature and print it. It could be this time around they wanted to show VC as being "fair and balanced" so printed a draw.

Refardeon
21-02-2008, 07:25
Hello
well, i'm not overly concerned about the new VC, too. Mainly because i see the magic heavy lists not being abused in a competitive area so much. It has some inherent weaknesses featuring armies like new HE with vortex shard and drain magic. And these will be used in next tournaments in great amounts. VC are not as competitve in overall, at least as i can see it.
It will be a better looking army; and there will be differences in armybuilds and playing style rising on the horizon. But as it had been said previous, there are drawbacks to most buildups. Many will be slow or lack the abilities to replace losses. Others are vulnerable to straight rushes by cavalry strong armies. And many builds make the general more vulnerable than before.
Just look how they play in about 1 or 2 month. Then you can begin to analyse which builds scare you more or less. And how they do really against the different tournament style armies.
Greetz Refardeon

Latro
21-02-2008, 07:56
What's a Vortex Shard?


:cool:

Fellblade
21-02-2008, 08:49
What's a Vortex Shard?High elf magic item, one use only. It just flat out ends the magic phase, so if your VC army just finally crashed into enemy lines and you were planning on having a round of maintenance of units and summoning this and that... too bad.

Conotor
21-02-2008, 12:06
If u charge a unit of 25 skelletons and eventualy kill 25, but in that time 25 new ones were raised for the unit, do u get any VPs?

Oberon
21-02-2008, 12:45
No, you don't. the unit has to be under half of its starting size at the end of game, it matters not how many dozen skellies you have slain during the game, if that doesn't get the unit under 50%. Same as before, or with TK.

Finnigan2004
21-02-2008, 13:20
You do know that they probably play and report hundreds of battles per game per year but only 12 (total) manage to get published in WD, right? They simply pick a report they believe will best showcase whatever they wish to feature and print it. It could be this time around they wanted to show VC as being "fair and balanced" so printed a draw.


Of course I know that Fellblade. It's a joke (sort of a long standing one with the members here). Go back through the issues and see how often the "new" army loses a battle report. Battle reports are "fair and balanced" just about as often as the "news" organization that copyrighted that moniker.

That said, I will reserve judgement about whether the new book is game breaking. People whined to no end that the new high elves would be game breaking. Simply put, it was not. Many do not like it, but ASF itself was not game breakingly unbalanced and sixty swordmaster armies of death simply did not materialize. I will reserve the calls about cheese, until the new book actually gets played with.

Three Headed Monkey
21-02-2008, 14:02
You got me there Doc. The necrarch is one bloodline that actually got better in this version. That's mostly because the magic got so much better. I think the other bloodlines got weaker. Especially considering that you can't take a Vampire Lord any more, you have to take a 3 wound 4 attack Count with one less WS. Can you even make a strigoi like I used to, for example? A flying, regenerating, hatred filled beast with 6 attacks and a 5+ ward? No. You can get fairly close if you combine the right items + powers, but I haven't been able to match that in my attempts. How about that lahmia with all those mind control abilties? No, most of them are gone. Don't get me wrong, I love the new VC army. But the vamps themselves are a tad weaker. Which means they are a easier to kill, having one less wound than before, and not having some of the resilence they had before, which means they are a great focal point for any attacks. If I were facing a VC army, I would head straight for the Count, challenge him, and watch the army fall apart. Even empire generals are a scary thing to the new counts, which never was the case. And don't get me started on the popemobile. :-)

I think Blood Dragons got better. Red fury is fantastic, they can choose eternal hatred, not just for the first round, and they become better casters! Although they lose WS, which is a huge bummer, but meh, no biggy.

One of the upsides of the new book is that you can have a mix of fighty and casty vampires. No longer are you restricted in to using just one type.

Defender of Ulthuan
21-02-2008, 14:41
Khorne Daemonic Legion, you couldn't have come at a better time :)

Defender

Zoolander
21-02-2008, 22:01
I think Blood Dragons got better. Red fury is fantastic, they can choose eternal hatred, not just for the first round, and they become better casters! Although they lose WS, which is a huge bummer, but meh, no biggy.

One of the upsides of the new book is that you can have a mix of fighty and casty vampires. No longer are you restricted in to using just one type.

Think so, huh? Try to build a blood dragon in the new book, and you will quickly see that the old BD were more powerful and harder to kill, though they became better mages - mostly this is due to the new magic system more than just generating an extra power die. -3 WS is no biggy? I think it is. But also consider it's more like: -3 WS, -1 Wo, -2 At (and no powers to subsitute for that), no more killing blow, and no more plate armor. It all adds up to a very big deal. In exchange, you can have more variety of powers to choose from. The "thralls" for blood dragons are much weaker now than they were before, have harder power choices to make and don't come with free plate armor (although they do become level 1 mages, which helps to balance that out). Mind you, I'm not complaining. I was just pointing out that if you want to beat a VC army fast, one way to do so is to engage the vampire lord. And I think you will find him easier to kill than the fully decked out BD Lords you faced last edition.

But there is a very nice upside. As you mentioned, it opens the door to more variety and more tactics, as you can field multiple types of vampires. My last two games I had a "necrarch" leading the army, a "strigoi" vamp scouting and causing problems, and a blood dragon BSB riding around with the knights, taking names and kicking butt. It was awesome having that flexibility. I love the new VC, so don't mistake what I'm really trying to say above.

AlexCage
21-02-2008, 23:02
Of course I know that Fellblade. It's a joke (sort of a long standing one with the members here). Go back through the issues and see how often the "new" army loses a battle report. Battle reports are "fair and balanced" just about as often as the "news" organization that copyrighted that moniker.



Empire tied with Beastmen too! Karl Franz got whooped by Morghur.

I gotta think this battle was Empire's revenge for losing that one.

Three Headed Monkey
22-02-2008, 02:29
Think so, huh? Try to build a blood dragon in the new book, and you will quickly see that the old BD were more powerful and harder to kill, though they became better mages - mostly this is due to the new magic system more than just generating an extra power die. -3 WS is no biggy? I think it is. But also consider it's more like: -3 WS, -1 Wo, -2 At (and no powers to subsitute for that), no more killing blow, and no more plate armor. It all adds up to a very big deal. In exchange, you can have more variety of powers to choose from. The "thralls" for blood dragons are much weaker now than they were before, have harder power choices to make and don't come with free plate armor (although they do become level 1 mages, which helps to balance that out). Mind you, I'm not complaining. I was just pointing out that if you want to beat a VC army fast, one way to do so is to engage the vampire lord. And I think you will find him easier to kill than the fully decked out BD Lords you faced last edition.

But there is a very nice upside. As you mentioned, it opens the door to more variety and more tactics, as you can field multiple types of vampires. My last two games I had a "necrarch" leading the army, a "strigoi" vamp scouting and causing problems, and a blood dragon BSB riding around with the knights, taking names and kicking butt. It was awesome having that flexibility. I love the new VC, so don't mistake what I'm really trying to say above.

Yeah, ish. Blood Dragon thralls did not recieve full plate in the current book. Only Lords and Counts got that for free. The WS probably will hurt more than I give credit for, but I am switching my guy from being a character kill to a rank and file killer, as I no longer have to accept challenges for him. BTW, the new build I have made has the same armour and ward save as before (2+ and 4+ respectively). Defensively he has lost a wound, three points of WS and one point of I. But gets better magic and loses his challenging restrictions. Even so, my guy is not going to be easy to kill. Especially if he survives to my magic phase.

The problem with BD thralls is that you have to spend half your vampire power allowance on giving them armour, if you want it. However, that is tempered by the fact that there is another 50 points for magic items. As for powers, no more +1 attack, no more killing blow, although there is the sword of kings but we get magical lances (I sooo wanted one in the last book). If you think about it you still can get +1 attack with the sword of battle, eternal hatred beats heart piercing and red fury emulates having additional attacks on our profile if we wound enough.

Also before I switched around with a mounted thrall. First he had a lance and heart piercing etc, then I changed him to a BSB but with a worse save (no shield, and then back again. Now I have him be both!

Zoolander
22-02-2008, 21:41
Oh yeah Monkey, that lord of yours will still be a bitch to handle.

EvC
22-02-2008, 22:13
Empire tied with Beastmen too! Karl Franz got whooped by Morghur.

I gotta think this battle was Empire's revenge for losing that one.

The Empire-Beastmen battle report was for the Nemesis Crown, not a new army! In fact the Empire's new army battle report saw them defeat Mannfred von Carstein's Vampire Counts... so this battle should have been the VC's revenge for that battle.

Conotor
23-02-2008, 01:14
Oh, but you can't raise deat in combat, can u? In that case mass fast trooops and engage all the units he wants to grow.

Greymarch
23-02-2008, 02:03
Guess this will keep the ol' Sensei busy now...

Three Headed Monkey
23-02-2008, 02:47
Oh, but you can't raise deat in combat, can u? In that case mass fast trooops and engage all the units he wants to grow.

You cant raise a new unit into combat, no, but you can cast the invocation of nehek at a unit in combat.

Ixquic
23-02-2008, 02:51
You cant raise a new unit into combat, no, but you can cast the invocation of nehek at a unit in combat.

Thanks to inept writers at GW, no you can't.

bringerofdecay
23-02-2008, 03:02
rest safe in the knowledge any VC layer will still be trying to put their models together by this time next year before they even think about ownng everyone, i had to 'opportnity' of doing the blood knights today, and they are horrendously poorly fitting, i would not be pleased to pay Ģ40 for them, they're a hobbyists worst knightmare(see what i did there? ;)). they put me off buying a box, the varghulf is also a bitch to make, but the grave guard, manfred and the vampire with wing are brilliant :D (although the vampire with wing looks markedly different to the one i've seen on the net, he is less bulky and his wing s a lot larger.

Three Headed Monkey
23-02-2008, 05:06
Thanks to inept writers at GW, no you can't.

Que?

Dont tell me they've left that all important passage out of the spell discription...

Oberon
23-02-2008, 06:42
Did that really have to be brought up in another thread too? The IoN description does not include passage like "may be cast at unit in close combat", but it does contain a hint about charge bonuses and units in combat. It is quite clear what the developers have intended, and some of the notes in the spell doesn't come into effect unless IoN can be cast in to CC. This is already discussed at lenght elsewhere.

Ixquic
23-02-2008, 10:11
Did that really have to be brought up in another thread too? The IoN description does not include passage like "may be cast at unit in close combat", but it does contain a hint about charge bonuses and units in combat. It is quite clear what the developers have intended, and some of the notes in the spell doesn't come into effect unless IoN can be cast in to CC. This is already discussed at lenght elsewhere.

As I said in the other thread if we go down the road of "what was intended" it leads us to lots of sticky situations. Was it intended that we don't get any regen or ward saves from crumble? It's always worked that way before so that could easily have just been a mistake. Caradryan is holding a halbard, uses it with two hands like a halbard and in the item's story it's called a halbard. However it doesn't count as a halbard. Was this a typo or should High Elf players get to use him at strength 5?

I agree that this was a mistake and it's obvious the intent. However until they fix it, the rules are clear as to how it works. I'm not trying to derail this thread, but the question was "can you raise into combat" and the answer to that question, as the book is currently written is "no."

If you want to debate about this with me, the other thread would probably be a better place.

Lucky24/7
23-02-2008, 10:32
Its a new style of play and one of which I have all ready made the most duisgusting list possible for double a mean at 750 for two vamp players taking 3 vamps (total) and then taking 2 with the extra 2 dice and then the other level 2 with the skele raise thing and then add in 2 bound spells off them and then some helm and then corpse carts and then vargulf thing... oh and black knights and give one vamp a 18 inc charge to make him compeate with a niki swosh saurus warrior with a great wep :D a mean its a flying circus of doom is possible :D oh i love VC