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View Full Version : Do VC still have terrible matchups?



Voodoo Boyz
14-02-2008, 12:54
After discussing the new VC with a friend of mine, and just how nasty they can be with the amount of PD they can put out and the spamming of Healing spells to bulk out cheaply bought blocks, it seems to me that they still will suffer from some pretty big foils:

Ogres (especially MSU)
Minotaur Chaos (again, MSU)
Fast Khorne Chaos (as if there were any other kind but fast)
Demonic Legion
Tree based Combat Wood Elf armies.

Basically armies that can get a lot of units into you quickly, potentially in the Flanks, can put out wounds quickly, and most importantly ones that are unaffected by Fear or are mostly unaffected (Khorne).

Will these just be one of those matchups that puts you completely on the back foot as a VC player, with a huge struggle to win, or will it not be as bad as before?

Jack of Blades
14-02-2008, 14:21
I honestly don't think it'll be as bad as before - but I won't make a judgement yet. I'm just going by stomach feeling.

Riftsower
14-02-2008, 14:49
MSU isnt a big deal anymore with winds of undeath. I've played woodelves with it and its just nasty. With ogres it could be even worse cause once those hosts are up, not much their average unit can do to it.

Wood elf tree list can suck my flying lord with magical flaming lance.

The hardest armies i expect to face as VC are dwarven gunlines, Stank/Walter lists and possibly a star dragon list. (Fing Walter!) All of these can still be handled, it will just be more difficult.

As for heavy hitting armies like chaos, I cant stress enough how nasty summoning GG is and giving them a regen banner. They will sit there and take a beating all day until you just beat them with CR. As for Khorne armies, even their dice can't keep up with our spells if we dont want them to.

Voodoo Boyz
14-02-2008, 15:02
MSU isnt a big deal anymore with winds of undeath. I've played woodelves with it and its just nasty. With ogres it could be even worse cause once those hosts are up, not much their average unit can do to it.

Wood elf tree list can suck my flying lord with magical flaming lance.

The hardest armies i expect to face as VC are dwarven gunlines, Stank/Walter lists and possibly a star dragon list. (Fing Walter!) All of these can still be handled, it will just be more difficult.

As for heavy hitting armies like chaos, I cant stress enough how nasty summoning GG is and giving them a regen banner. They will sit there and take a beating all day until you just beat them with CR. As for Khorne armies, even their dice can't keep up with our spells if we dont want them to.

Interesting, though if you're going for the flying flaming lance Vampire (all jokes aside), then I don't think you're doing the summoning horde but going for a hard-hitting VC army which is pretty nice.

As far as the spirit host spell, I'm not so sure about that. As an Ogre player, I know I can't stop your healing from going off, so I'm going to save my Dice + 3 Scrolls for any kind of offensive spell that I need to stop or the bound/movement ones.

Of course if you do get it off, it so blows for your opponent, but isn't that really only one casting from the Vamp Lord per turn to worry about? Could Power Stone it from the Hero ones too I guess to try and get 2 off per turn.

Good Points all around though. :)

Malorian
14-02-2008, 15:45
Just like any time an army maxes out in one area there will be the paper to beat your rock.

Like I said in the other post, army that get bonus's to dispel will be a real headache and will really cramp the mass summon style. (High elves with staff of sorcery)

Zoolander
14-02-2008, 19:02
Actually Voodoo, I never had trouble with any of those armies in particular before, so I doubt I will now. Undead don't like shooty armies. An asrai based wood elf army is very difficult, high elves can be, and so are gunlines (empire, dwarves). I don't think anything's changed in the new rules as afar as that is concerned. The one difference I see is that we will rely on magic more than before, so those with a ton of scrolls and dispel dice wil annoy use like they do tomb kings.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-02-2008, 19:26
Nah. No more than usual.

Against Minotaurs, Ghouls will now be horrifically good, with lots of additional wounds, plus their rank bonus. The fact they cause fear, don't break and can be healed is additional!

Sadly, one of my traditional tactics of picking on units that don't come back is rather hampered now!

Horus38
14-02-2008, 19:43
Stank/Walter lists and possibly a star dragon list. (Fing Walter!)

Forgive my ignorance but I've never come across a force referred to as Stank/Walter? Care to enlighten a fellow gamer as the term sounds....interesting :D

ChrisAsmadi
14-02-2008, 20:13
Forgive my ignorance but I've never come across a force referred to as Stank/Walter? Care to enlighten a fellow gamer as the term sounds....interesting :D

Steam Tanks & War Altar, most likely.

Yade
14-02-2008, 22:40
We'll see. They are getting some major Viagra but there are some inherent problems with the army.

1. They are immune to psychology and cannot perform tactical flees. Meaning as soon as someone gets you where they want you... you stay there and let them screw you. Other armies can bait and flee and it is a major tactic that the undead do not have.

2. Shooting, hello. They completely lack effectiveness in one entire phase of the game. Sure they have a banshee, but at 175 points to get a howl that MIGHT hurt something if you march them to the opponent for 3 turns. ack

3. Crumbling, they still have it and it will happen. It is a fluff effect that can easily become the Achilles heel to your plan. Sure they made it less effective in the new book, but none of the other armies, except undead, have this fun draw back to the general dying. Crumbling has no tactical place in the game, it is for fluff only and all fluff rules hurt those armies. (intrigue of the court, animosity...)

Anardakil
15-02-2008, 09:46
Hey everyone who miss the bait and flee ghouls. Why not take duellists as DoW? :)


Crumbling has no tactical place in the game, it is for fluff only and all fluff rules hurt those armies. (intrigue of the court, animosity...)

Errrr it has "tactical place" ... for the enemy. The army is supposed to have weaknesses and I think this is a fair one for having the ability to summon and resurrect troops :)

ChaosTicket
15-02-2008, 12:01
Well the Crumblin rule is there, really to show that skeletons, zombies, and the weaker monsters need someone to sustain them after the general who powers then dies. Wights, vampire led units, and a few others have High LD.

It appears that Vampire Counts still require every unit to have a vampire for fighting power or a necromancer for healing.

I don't think GW really every want undead to be in any way tactical. Nerfing tactical retreats, marches, etc. all make it so you need to take large units of skeletons with vampires backed by smaller units of wights who can handle themselves without a Vamp.

The_Dragon_Rising
15-02-2008, 12:06
Possibly a magic heavy- raise an army style army could have problems against southlands lizards. A possible 14 DD, not to mention scrolls kills of magic quickly and poison blowpipes shouldn't be hard pressed to kill zombies, kroxigor could possibly deal with cavalry and other heavy hitter.

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-02-2008, 15:14
Undead don't like shooty armies.


It will have to be some really serious shooting to really worry an undead army. I've never really found shooting to be that bad, and for the new army it means even less, as now you can raise everything.

Wood Elves have always given me fits, but that's not just with VC. I do however think VC have a better chance against Wood Elves now than before.

Ogres can be problematic, but the Helm of Commandment could be a serious issue for them. The reason they do so well is that they have lots of medium/high strenght attacks, and suddenly they are hitting on 3's unstead of the 4s they need against virtually everybody else.
But if the skellie block you charged are suddenly WS 7 the ogres goes from hitting on 3s to needing 5s. And then it's bye bye ogres.

Jack of Blades
15-02-2008, 15:47
Also - Ogres have little that can actually charge Black Knights. Stick a Necromancer on Corpse Cart with Book of Arkhan and Van Hel's Danse Macabre next to them, put the Banner of the Barrows on them, make them Unit Size 7, give them Full Command and enjoy. As usual, Barding is a good option since they're still M7. You can use a small unit of Fell Bats to tie any would-be flank chargers, Gnoblars etc. up.

7 attacks hitting on 3+ with re-roll and wounding on 3+, negating the Heavy Armour of the Ironguts as well as 7 more attacks hitting on 4+ with re-roll and wounding on 5+ will hurt. Optionally, drop a Knight and stick a Wight Lord with the Hand of Dust in there.

If you really want to make this unit shine, put a Vampire on a Nightmare with them, give him the Staff of Damnation, Balefire Spike and Master of the Dark Arts. Then use another Vampire with 2 Power Stones and Forbidden Lore; Lore of Death and cast Doom & Darkness! on the general's unit, followed by Walking Death on your own unit. Charge it, and it'll be taking a Fear Test on LD 6 (you might want to swap out the BotB for the BotDL which doubles your model count for this reason) :evilgrin:

^ This scenario is against Ogre Kingdoms

Zoolander
15-02-2008, 16:15
It will have to be some really serious shooting to really worry an undead army. I've never really found shooting to be that bad, and for the new army it means even less, as now you can raise everything.

Wood Elves have always given me fits, but that's not just with VC. I do however think VC have a better chance against Wood Elves now than before.

Ogres can be problematic, but the Helm of Commandment could be a serious issue for them. The reason they do so well is that they have lots of medium/high strenght attacks, and suddenly they are hitting on 3's unstead of the 4s they need against virtually everybody else.
But if the skellie block you charged are suddenly WS 7 the ogres goes from hitting on 3s to needing 5s. And then it's bye bye ogres.

You don't? Most of our army is low toughness, little to no armor save. That is a wood elf's favorite target! The only difference between now and then is that it's much easier to raise "dead" troops back to un-life. So killing us will take longer, but we can never catch them, while their heavy hitters like treemen and treekin (heck, even dryads) move and kill kill kill.

I think it will be harder now than it was before for them, but if they take some magic defense, we really can't beat a good asrai list lead by a decent wood elf general. They might not be able to beat us either if we can raise the dead fast enough, but what a pain in the ass that will be.

Malorian
15-02-2008, 16:18
With you can always use your magic to get that extra movement and catch them.

Jack of Blades
15-02-2008, 16:20
Just hope you don't roll any miscasts. They're fairly evenly matched imo, but the Vampires have the Random Chances working against them.

Zoolander
15-02-2008, 16:34
With you can always use your magic to get that extra movement and catch them.

Which can be dispelled, and even if it's not, they can very often flee. Then we're stuck in the woods moving 2" a turn. A forest spirit army we won't have as much trouble with.

heinrichvoncarstein
15-02-2008, 18:04
The one ogres should watch out for is a unit of wraiths.
I would personally watch out for the "raise horde" spell, healing 5d6 wounds distributed as you wish is nasty.
ALSO, there is a nasty new little banner called the cursed pendant, say you carge with your 350pts unit of 5 knights and destroy my skellies unit only to die from the effects of this very deadly banner.

Jack of Blades
15-02-2008, 18:10
The one ogres should watch out for is a unit of wraiths.
I would personally watch out for the "raise horde" spell, healing 5d6 wounds distributed as you wish is nasty.
ALSO, there is a nasty new little banner called the cursed pendant, say you carge with your 350pts unit of 5 knights and destroy my skellies unit only to die from the effects of this very deadly banner.

Depends. It's excellent against units of Chosen Knights/Warriors, Black Orcs, Executioners, Swordmasters and such things but absolutely horrible against things like Minotaurs, Ogres and such. In other words it's an anti-tin can ensurance, and a damned good one against things that really can't afford the D6 S4 hits followed by D3 S4 hits every turn... with no saves :D

What this banner does is allow for your rather pathetic unit of 10 Skeletons with a Standard Bearer and nothing else, carrying the Cursed Pendant, to transport itself (hopefully aided by magic) to the most threatening and eligible target in the opposing army. Just suicide into the unit, don't bother raising new Skeletons and when they crush the Skeleton unit to dust, tell him about the D6 S4 hits he now has to take and the D3 S4 hits, both without saves, that he will have to take... unless he drops the banner. It's a cheap way to hold up a unit and cause damage to it when your tarpit crumbles :)

Zoolander
15-02-2008, 18:12
The one ogres should watch out for is a unit of wraiths.
I would personally watch out for the "raise horde" spell, healing 5d6 wounds distributed as you wish is nasty.
ALSO, there is a nasty new little banner called the cursed pendant, say you carge with your 350pts unit of 5 knights and destroy my skellies unit only to die from the effects of this very deadly banner.

The spell raises 5d6 zombies or heals 3d6 across the board. But it's still a great spell.

Latro
15-02-2008, 21:01
You don't? Most of our army is low toughness, little to no armor save. That is a wood elf's favorite target! The only difference between now and then is that it's much easier to raise "dead" troops back to un-life. So killing us will take longer, but we can never catch them, while their heavy hitters like treemen and treekin (heck, even dryads) move and kill kill kill.


Just some points I couldn't help noticing:

- A Wood Elf's favourite target is a unit that can be broken on the charge by massive overkill or auto-break ... no such luck against the Undead.

- The Undead have now more combat characters and more effective magic at the same time. Add to that faster and harder hitting units and better access to flaming attacks ... I'd call that an improvement anyday.

- With their main combat units unable to flee as a reaction and being march-blocked just as anybosy else, I don't see why they would be hard to catch. Wood Elves don't have the firepower to bother the Undead, so they'll have to engage, get cornered or hide in the trees and settle for a draw ... no problems there then.

- Dryads v. Skeletons: 6 Dryads have 12 attacks against Skeletons in a regular formation. Due to their WS-boost the Skeletons will only be hit 6 times and 4 of those will wound. After that the armour will save one on average ... 3 kills. The Dryads lose by 2 (even 3 if there's a Warbanner or the +1 ranks bonus banner ... expect to see those two a lot). Without serious support the Dryads are doomed.

- Treekin v. Skeletons: 4 Treekin have 12 attacks, that's 6 hits, 5 wounds and a good chance at one saved ... Treekin lose by 1 (or more in case of magical banners) Note: Treeking tend to be seen in units of only 3 anyway.

- Treeman v. Skeletons: 1 Treeman has 5 attacks, rounded up to three hits, three wounds and three kills ... again a loss.

So basicly the Wood Elves need multple Dryad units or something in the flank/rear to remove rank bonus before they have a good chance to defeat a simple unit of Skeletons ... and the VC general has to be nice and promise not to support it with hard hitters or scary characters.


:D

(PS Yes, yes ... <insert comments about better tactics and theoryhammer not proving anything> ... it only proves that just by looking at the raw data, that's unit stats and such, the Wood Elves are hardly at an advantage.)