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Deus Mechanicus
14-02-2008, 14:03
Just something that crossed my mind, since the Emperor have been around... a really long time why did he sit through The Dark Age of Technology, Age of Strife. Wouldn't it have been easier to do his stuff when humanity just left terra to colonize the galaxy during The Great Diaspora.

What exactly was he waiting for?

Aeolian
14-02-2008, 14:18
Maybe he hadn't planned that far.

Dark Seraphs
14-02-2008, 14:24
on Wikipedia it states that the Emperor Waited because the humanity was not ready for unity, but he was always guiding humanity and watching.

But during the Age of Strife, Humanity was tearing itself apart, and then he made his move to unify humanity under a single banner.

jfrazell
14-02-2008, 14:26
Well he didn't get out of college until M39. Hate to say it, but he wasn't a scholastic genius, and too many frat parties kept taking their toll.

Baltar
14-02-2008, 14:27
Couple reasons:

1. The Eldar had ruled the galaxy for ~65 million years. Wisely, the Emperor chose to wait until they offed themselves, and then he embarked on the Crusade.

2. The Warp Storms that emerged during the Age of Strife blocked him from uniting planets.

Brother Loki
14-02-2008, 14:30
I wouldn't be surprised if he was waiting for the number of psykers to reach enough of a threshold to make a galaxy-spanning empire work as well. There definitely seems to be the suggestion that the proportion of psykers in the general population is higher by M31 than earlier.

Gimp
14-02-2008, 14:32
Well he didn't get out of college until M39. Hate to say it, but he wasn't a scholastic genius, and too many frat parties kept taking their toll.

That was brilliant

really made me luagh

jfrazell
14-02-2008, 15:09
:)

Sounds like Blacklibrary opportunities to me.
Rise of the Emperor, the Frathouse Years

Finnith
14-02-2008, 15:33
The Emperor spent alot of time (ie several thousand years) just running around, slowly guiding events, having families and trying to guide humanity to a better tomorrow. Dont forget he had the knowledge of hundreds of shamans locked away in his noggin so he knew what would happen if he pushed too fast for change and didnt think things through. A gentle nudge here or there could be used to coax mankind slowly.

This worked pretty much great for about 25-30 thousand years and humanity reached its peak during the golden age creating STC technology (sp?), zipping around the galaxy and generally having a great time. Humanity could have been united for thousands of years at this point in a super happy Star Trek type way. They didnt need a war leader since there wasnt a massive threat that they couldnt handle at the time with super advanced tech and the legions of robotic men of iron on their side.

As far as the Big E is concerned at this point humanity is bang on track for the long run and is pretty hard to wipe out due to good tech and being well spread out.

Then everything goes tits up; Men of Iron revolt, birth of Slanessh etc pretty much guts humanity. Everyone panics on Earth and blows most of it up since resources become scarce due to the lack of inter system trade. Humanity is divided, surrounded by warp storms and things are looking pretty bleak. Chaos jumps in with all the confusion and things go from bad to worse.

The Emperor pretty much had to make a move now or it would be too late to save humanity or even what he could save would still be even classed as humans. His hand was forced and he felt he was currently the only person in the galaxy who could fix it.



Although the frat party idea goes well with my suspicions that the birth of slanessh was due to the emperor finally feeling his work is done going on the biggest bender the galaxy has ever known and the great crusade was his way of saying sorry he threw up on your mum.

Tiamat
14-02-2008, 15:43
As memory serves from my Realms of Chaos days, it was never his plan or desire to dominate humanity, but to guide us to enlightenment, so we wouldn't need to be lead around and could find our own way, so becoming a truly mature species.

The unification of Terra and the Great Crusade were a kind of last resort when he saw humanity tearing itself apart during the Age of Strife, sort of a Tyler Durden Fight Club "I will drag you forward kicking and screaming, and in the end you will thank me for it" approach when all else failed.

I think Finnith put it better though.

Emperor's Grace
14-02-2008, 21:27
Read Dune...

People look for a "uniting force" when they are broken and oppressed, not when it's wine and roses.

He waited for the collapse, to ensure that his hold would be greatest.

All the while preparing to make sure that the vital materials/knowledge would be "safe" within his strongholds.

Brother Siccarius
14-02-2008, 22:12
Read Dune...

People look for a "uniting force" when they are broken and oppressed, not when it's wine and roses.

He waited for the collapse, to ensure that his hold would be greatest.

All the while preparing to make sure that the vital materials/knowledge would be "safe" within his strongholds.

The Emperor made sure the Mechanicus were pretty damned open with technology. After he was out of the picture, it went back to secrets and hiding. There was power armor, baneblades, plasma technology, land raiders, and Terminator armor whenever it was needed. In the 41st millenium, the Forge worlds make sure there's a very limited supply of "their" sacred resources. They can claim that several forgeworlds needed for them were destroyed, but when you have 10 millenia to rebuild, you lose face with that kind of argument.

If he was really all out for himself, he wouldn't have bothered to stay on the front lines of the Crusade for so long, or gone into researching ways for humanity to avoid the warp. You can rule an empire from the back lines a lot easier than from the front.

Baltar
14-02-2008, 22:19
For the record, I don't think the Emperor was "out for himself", but the idea that since he fought at the front lines he was a selfless hero doesn't make much sense either.

Brother Siccarius
14-02-2008, 22:47
For the record, I don't think the Emperor was "out for himself", but the idea that since he fought at the front lines he was a selfless hero doesn't make much sense either.

Not saying "Selfless Hero", but it certainly proves that he wasn't just doing it to "get power". Those kind of people stay in the back and watch, rather than almost get choked to death by an Ork Warlord as they lead the offensive to end a powerful WAAAGH!. Besides, he left the Imperium to other people even before he was "killed".

Baltar
14-02-2008, 23:59
Not saying "Selfless Hero", but it certainly proves that he wasn't just doing it to "get power".

Based on what? There are lots of counter examples in history. Perhaps the Emperor fought on the front lines specifically to give off the impression you seem to have gotten from it, or because he felt that the Space Marines wouldn't support a ruler who didn't actively fight with them.

Alessander
15-02-2008, 00:24
While jfrazell's frat line was good, Tiamat gets the "laugh of the thread" award here for the Emperor is Tyler Durdan reference.

"first rule about Galactic Unification... is that you do not talk about chaos."

"second rule about Galactic Unification...."

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 01:14
Well he didn't get out of college until M39. Hate to say it, but he wasn't a scholastic genius, and too many frat parties kept taking their toll.

Good one. This thread looks entertaining. I shall place it in my file.

Brother Siccarius
15-02-2008, 04:56
Based on what? There are lots of counter examples in history. Perhaps the Emperor fought on the front lines specifically to give off the impression you seem to have gotten from it, or because he felt that the Space Marines wouldn't support a ruler who didn't actively fight with them.

Based on the fact that those that want the kind of power that he was about to get don't put themselves directly against the toughest opponents they're facing. Only if you go back to the times when champions would duke it out in front of the armies would you find something like that, of course that ended when the romans figured you could simply fill them full of arrows and still call it a victory. There were plenty of generals that led from the front lines, sure, but they weren't the ones going for something like global power, and they weren't the guys leading the charges.

He also gave away all of the power of Government and founded what is now the structure of the Imperium's system of Government, just a less beurocratic version than these days. He gave the power of the military to Horus, and we all know how that worked out. He had all this power, and he gave it up just so that he could continue his great works of advancing humanity.

If he wanted religious power, he could have had that at any time he wanted throughout the history of mankind. He stayed in the background only to pop up when humanity was heading to a fall. He could have had a more direct influence on humanity and stopped things like the loss of STC, but he didn't because he stayed in the background.

Not the kind of actions of a man doing it all for power. Even now, at what some call his most powerful, when he's on his throne, he doesn't use it.

Point being, if he wanted power, either tangible or intangible, he could have had it all at any time. Who would deny an Immortal man who could provide "miracles" and appear as he wanted?

DantesInferno
15-02-2008, 05:49
Based on the fact that those that want the kind of power that he was about to get don't put themselves directly against the toughest opponents they're facing. Only if you go back to the times when champions would duke it out in front of the armies would you find something like that, of course that ended when the romans figured you could simply fill them full of arrows and still call it a victory. There were plenty of generals that led from the front lines, sure, but they weren't the ones going for something like global power, and they weren't the guys leading the charges.

Julius Caesar fought in the front lines. There's nothing wrong with a good photo-op of the general fighting side-by-side with his loyal troops.


He also gave away all of the power of Government and founded what is now the structure of the Imperium's system of Government, just a less beurocratic version than these days. He gave the power of the military to Horus, and we all know how that worked out. He had all this power, and he gave it up just so that he could continue his great works of advancing humanity.

If he wanted religious power, he could have had that at any time he wanted throughout the history of mankind. He stayed in the background only to pop up when humanity was heading to a fall. He could have had a more direct influence on humanity and stopped things like the loss of STC, but he didn't because he stayed in the background.

Not the kind of actions of a man doing it all for power. Even now, at what some call his most powerful, when he's on his throne, he doesn't use it.

Point being, if he wanted power, either tangible or intangible, he could have had it all at any time. Who would deny an Immortal man who could provide "miracles" and appear as he wanted?

Just to be clear, you're claiming that the character we only know as "the Emperor of Mankind" went out of his way to give up power? The character who is solely named by his position at the undisputed head of a galactic empire?

Brother Siccarius
15-02-2008, 06:36
Just to be clear, you're claiming that the character we only know as "the Emperor of Mankind" went out of his way to give up power? The character who is solely named by his position at the undisputed head of a galactic empire?

Yes, and we know he did, we've had very good proof of just that since Rogue Trader days.

He was called the Emperor of Mankind because you don't call someone like that "Ted", much less to his face, it's not respectful and there was nothing if not respect for the man (Even Horus grudgingly respected the man after the turn). The fact that he would never have had a proper name, and would have used so many alias's throughout his long life just compounds the issue. A name wouldn't do because he's done too much for just one name (even through tribal naming rituals), so you give him a title. Just because we only know him as one title, doesn't mean anything as he's had so many.

Heck I'd even go so far as to say that just because we know him as a man doesn't mean he couldn't have appeared as a woman as well, at some point in the past.

Wraith
15-02-2008, 07:35
He was waiting for Humanity to spawn a certain ratio of individuals with the psycher mutation.

jfrazell
15-02-2008, 10:57
He was called the Emperor of Mankind because you don't call someone like that "Ted"

Thats classic and a new edition to my siggie line. :D

Baltar
15-02-2008, 12:25
Just to be clear, you're claiming that the character we only know as "the Emperor of Mankind" went out of his way to give up power? The character who is solely named by his position at the undisputed head of a galactic empire?

The Lightning Tower says:

"It was said that once you had seen him, or heard him speak, you were never in doubt again. He was the one, and he always had been. He had been the Emperor long before there was any such office to take. No one knew his birth name, because he had always, naturally, been the Emperor."

MeltaBombed
15-02-2008, 12:40
"first rule about Galactic Unification... is that you do not talk about chaos."

"second rule about Galactic Unification...."

Dude that is so sigged:D

StanMcKim
15-02-2008, 12:48
I think there are a few reasons.
First, he needed humanity to situate itself throughout the galaxy. There had to be enough of us that we could defend ourselves if threatened. A critical mass, so to speak.

Secondly, the Eldar were at the top of the pile. The Emperor would have the forsight to see the fall and was simply waiting for that void so that humanity could fill it.

Thirdly, Humanity by its very nature would not unite unless they felt they had to. Its just human nature. The Emperor had to wait until there was enough disunity for humanity as a species to want to move towards a united empire. That racial feeling that "now is the time"

Fourthly, he needed time to create the processes that would give him his army. I don't imagine the space marine gene seed experiments were finished over night. I bet that took a good chunk of the Age of Strife, and only when they were ready did he start the Unification Wars of Terra.

So basically, he needed a bunch of different things to come together, and only then was he ready to get to work.
-Stan

Emperor's Grace
15-02-2008, 19:05
Read Dune...

People look for a "uniting force" when they are broken and oppressed, not when it's wine and roses.

He waited for the collapse, to ensure that his hold would be greatest.

All the while preparing to make sure that the vital materials/knowledge would be "safe" within his strongholds.


If he was really all out for himself, he wouldn't have bothered to stay on the front lines of the Crusade for so long, or gone into researching ways for humanity to avoid the warp. You can rule an empire from the back lines a lot easier than from the front.

Brother Siccarius,

I didn’t mean to imply that he was out for himself. If anything, just the opposite.

My Dune reference is there exactly because Paul (and Leto) were helping humanity and not themselves (and, admittedly, because I think the Emperor probably seeded necessary knowledge and pliancy as the BG missionaries did). Elements of the “Golden Path” ring here as well. Necessity, Conflict, and Stress drive humanity forward. The easy life of the Golden/Dark Age would have stymied our advancement toward the “new man” model.

I believe that he would have realized that humanity at its heights would resist unity. Even now (hardly DAoT), many folks would resist the idea of a world government. Without a need to unite, many of the intact governments/peoples would have resisted him to a much greater extent.

I meant to suggest that he waited for the fall, knowing that we would turn to a “savior” in the time of need and prepared accordingly. He built bases, acquired like minded scientists, inspired people/tech as needed, and stored food/ knowledge/materials. He did this all to make sure that humanity would survive the dark to come. And when we had “beaten” the darkness, he gave us back our own governance (while he went to work on the next problem: chaos, psykers, and the “new mankind” project (psychically able and untainted)).



I think there are a few reasons.
Thirdly, Humanity by its very nature would not unite unless they felt they had to. Its just human nature. The Emperor had to wait until there was enough disunity for humanity as a species to want to move towards a united empire. That racial feeling that "now is the time"

Fourthly, he needed time to create the processes that would give him his army. I don't imagine the space marine gene seed experiments were finished over night. I bet that took a good chunk of the Age of Strife, and only when they were ready did he start the Unification Wars of Terra.

Very much along my lines of thought.

Rai_st
15-02-2008, 19:25
Heck I'd even go so far as to say that just because we know him as a man doesn't mean he couldn't have appeared as a woman as well, at some point in the past.

Depending on how fast he could switch back and forth would let us know where the Primarch's came from

Kal Taron
15-02-2008, 22:15
Just a note on the timeline of the fall:
When mankind expended the Eldar must have already been on the way downwards. Otherwise they would have just send a fleet and offed the whole system. So that can't be the reason why he waited.

So it seems that he really waited until mankind struggled itself.

Oh, and I don't think that he could foresee the Fall of the Eldar. He doesn't seem to be very good at premonitions. Missing the whole Horus Heresy and such...:eyebrows:

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-02-2008, 07:09
Missing the Horus Heresy is specifically mentioned as a time when his sight was clouded as to the future.

DapperAnarchist
16-02-2008, 16:38
Yeah, seeing something the fall of an arrogant race could be done fine - but seeing something that a) involves the man who is closer to you than any of your thousands of actual sons over the years and b) is being hidden from you by the Great Deciever itself, personally would be hardder. Not by a daemon, or a daemon prince, a GOD.

FrankManic
16-02-2008, 16:41
Just something that crossed my mind, since the Emperor have been around... a really long time why did he sit through The Dark Age of Technology, Age of Strife. Wouldn't it have been easier to do his stuff when humanity just left terra to colonize the galaxy during The Great Diaspora.

What exactly was he waiting for?

The last airing of a re-run of 'The Golden Girls X:Neo-Golden Ressurection' was on January 21st, 25,544. The Emperor started his campaign of unification the next week. You do the math.

only joking...
16-02-2008, 18:08
:)

Sounds like Blacklibrary opportunities to me.
Rise of the Emperor, the Frathouse Years

Wow do you reckon the Emperor held toga parties with John Belushi??
:D

DapperAnarchist
16-02-2008, 22:19
I reckon the Emperor was John Belushi. Who'd believe it?

randomalias
17-02-2008, 10:29
As far as the Eldar are concerned, the Fall was a long time coming, it didn't just happen overnight. This is a 60 million year old empire we are talking about here. No, by the time humanity was in anyway significant, the Eldar had reached the point where they no longer cared about anything outside of their own pleasures, and the budding craftworlders were only concerned with survival.

only joking...
17-02-2008, 15:19
I reckon the Emperor was John Belushi. Who'd believe it?

Raises hand...