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Deus Mechanicus
14-02-2008, 15:05
Did the Space Marine Legions use Rhinos, Assault Marines and Land Speeders during the Great Crusade? And if how did those differ from the current incarnation of said units?

pookie
14-02-2008, 15:09
hey... im not following you honest...

yes they did, Stuff of legends will show you the images you need ( go to your other post about that boxed set ) and use T-Tauris links in there.

basicly tho: Rhinos were smaller - more angled, Landspeeders smaller - and less armoured and the Jump Packs looked like a variant of a standard SM back pack, although the Raptors in the Chaos Dex are supposed to use Herasy era JP's which are different.

CELS
14-02-2008, 15:11
Yes, they did. The differences were mostly superficial, although jump pack technology was still a bit experimental at the time, I believe.

Sigs_09
14-02-2008, 15:13
I'm not so sure about landspeeders. I've talked over my 100,000pt Pre-Heresey BA Legion idea with the guys at my two local GW shops, as well as the uber-nerds who work at the Battle Bunker near me, and everyone I've talked to who actually works at GW have all told me that I shouldn't include landspeeders, as they were implemented around the time of the Seige of Terra.

CELS
14-02-2008, 15:21
The Horus Heresy artwork books (and Sabertooth Heresy CCG) is rife with landspeeders, rhinos and assault marines with jetpacks. It seems more than likely that both land speeders and jump packs were in use before the Siege of Terra, even if they were brand new at the time.

PS: Sigs_09, did Warseer increase the amount of text allowed in the signatures or what? Yours seems a bit excessive, even if there are people out there who might be interesting in knowing your army results ;)

Deus Mechanicus
14-02-2008, 15:29
hey... im not following you honest...

yes they did, Stuff of legends will show you the images you need ( go to your other post about that boxed set ) and use T-Tauris links in there.

lol for some reason i totally missed that link, i'll check it out

pookie
14-02-2008, 15:32
I'm not so sure about landspeeders. I've talked over my 100,000pt Pre-Heresey BA Legion idea with the guys at my two local GW shops, as well as the uber-nerds who work at the Battle Bunker near me, and everyone I've talked to who actually works at GW have all told me that I shouldn't include landspeeders, as they were implemented around the time of the Seige of Terra.


nah there wrong, at the time of the siege the Loyalist will have been too hard pressed to find the STc, produce the LS and then use it, plus the Traitors did have access at that time.

its more than reasonable imo to use em.

Deus Mechanicus
14-02-2008, 15:42
So current assault marines with the raptor jump pack would make decent crusade era marines?

Sigs_09
14-02-2008, 15:44
Those, and the oldschool giant fan jump packs from bitz mailorder

pookie
14-02-2008, 15:44
So current assault marines with the raptor jump pack would make decent crusade era marines?

erm i'l sit on the fence... id pref to see the RT era ones, but knowing how hard they are to get, then the Raptors one would be the alternative, ive never seen any in person tho, so they may require some fileing to remove any Chaos icons.

@ Sigs09 - your not aware that Mail Order has changed are you? you cant get over half of what you could 6 months ago, they no longer sell 'bitz'

Apologist
14-02-2008, 16:02
Jump packs were reserved for specialist cadres, a bit like Terminator armour is now (and in fact was then).

I'd use altered Raptor jumppacks to represent Heresy-era ones.

Land Speeders were more common back then the grav-plate STC was still known.

Vaulkhar
14-02-2008, 17:05
Rhinos: Loads of. Was the stock light and medium chassis then as now.

Jump packs: Still fairly rare and gathered into specialist formations more like the current Assault companies rather than spread out amongst everyone.

Land Speeders: Rare at the start of the Crusade (the STC wasn't discovered until some way in) becoming more common as time went on. By the end of the Crusade, both Marines and Army (ie, Guard) had access to Land Speeders AND Land Raiders. Once the Heresy started, these became Marine-only...and nobody ever dared rescind the order afterwards.

Leftenant Gashrog
14-02-2008, 19:21
although jump pack technology was still a bit experimental at the time, I believe.

The Raptor Cult IA article stated that the Crusade era jump packs used by Raptors were superior in both power and endurance, but that at the time of the Heresy the ability to manufacture them - the Imperium has since lost the ability to even maintain the design so has been forced to adopt the inferior STC design used to today. (the article also mentioned the rarety/eliteness of the jump pack troops at the time, but that even so Horus had tens of thousands of such troops at his disposal)

jfrazell
14-02-2008, 20:07
I have to disagree with the speeder portion, its my understanding that was discovered later. More importantly, if it was around at the time of the heresy the traitor legions would have had them as well.

Edit: I was incorrect on the speeder item. Thanks guys (aka if I ever do a pre heresy legion its RT era speeders for me!)

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-02-2008, 20:22
I've never heard anything to the effect of Landspeeders not being around during the Heresy, and I always assumed that the Chaos Legions don't use them because they're one of those finicky technologies that's difficult to maintain (read: game balance).

As for jump packs, I thought that the Raptors altered their equipment (and the Warp effect of Daemon Worlds and the Eye helped as well) to suit their nature; that is, elite, terrifying troops that prey on the weak- explaining many of the aesthetic differences between them and regular Assault Marines.

Leftenant Gashrog
14-02-2008, 20:32
More importantly, if it was around at the time of the heresy the traitor legions would have had them as well.the 2nd edition chaos codex explicitly stated that speeders were used (albeit to a lesser extent than post-heresy) at the time of the heresy, but that chaos forces in the Eye of Terror do not have the ability to fabricate or maintain them - hence their not being a part of the m41 chaos list.

CELS
14-02-2008, 23:22
The Raptor Cult IA article stated that the Crusade era jump packs used by Raptors were superior in both power and endurance, but that at the time of the Heresy the ability to manufacture them - the Imperium has since lost the ability to even maintain the design so has been forced to adopt the inferior STC design used to today. (the article also mentioned the rarety/eliteness of the jump pack troops at the time, but that even so Horus had tens of thousands of such troops at his disposal)
Cool. Didn't know. Thanks for the info!

oblique
15-02-2008, 04:21
Imperial Armour Volume Two claims that the design for anti-gravitic plates was rediscovered on Mars in the Librarius Omnis and it took 'many years' before the first land speeders were put into service. It states that they only started to see wide use (and not just in the Astartes but in all arms of the imperial military) just prior to the end of the Great Crusade.

But like I said, that's out of a volume of IA, so take it with a grain of salt I suppose. It seems to me that land speeders probably wouldn't be particularly out of place in a pre-heresy army, though.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 20:30
Page four of the 3.5 Chaos Codex has a picture of some World Eaters Assault Marines from the Drop Site Massacre. If you find that drawing, it might help you in your bits selection.

Marsekay
16-02-2008, 00:52
Yeah they did have all of those,

there were so many, even the imperial guard (imperial army) had access to rhinos and land speeders. even jet bikes. (go look at the old minis on solegends if you dont believe me)
i also believe the IG/IA had access to land raiders.

basically after the heresy it all got a bit rarer and the IG lost all the cool gear and given torches for guns.

Deus Mechanicus
16-02-2008, 02:18
Page four of the 3.5 Chaos Codex has a picture of some World Eaters Assault Marines from the Drop Site Massacre. If you find that drawing, it might help you in your bits selection.

Thanks! Raptor back packs it is