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canonesszaria
14-02-2008, 16:22
Sorry but I just have to rant about this

While Reading my new Ork Codex The writers state in their opening paragraphs that Orks are not the one of the most powerful armies out there but you'll have alot of fun with them.

Now I'm sorry when I get an Army I do want it to be fun. But I also want it to be effective in tournaments and I want it to be able to win game without spaming special chacters. Which from what i have read in the foruams is about the only really effective ways to win with the orks. Don't think that I just want a powerful army I just want the Army I love to be able to go to a tournament and win not just have fun.

Warlord Grell
Blood Axes

Edzard
14-02-2008, 16:24
You will be able to win without any special characters no problemo, maybe you shouldn't base your opinion on only forums :P

Thud
14-02-2008, 16:27
(...) is not only one of the most powerful armies in the 41st millenium (...).

Read all the words before you start to whine all over the internet.

Besides, looking at the actual armylist might be an idea before going into spasms after having misread a sentence in the introduction.

:rolleyes:

Malforus
14-02-2008, 16:29
I have never fielded a special character with orks...

My win / loss record: 33 / 15 (Speed freaks back in the day)

Have usually gotten to either the last 2 or 3 players but in the biggest tourney was able to get into the 65% range...even though I faced a player that flew off the handle and didn't grant me any points (he wouldn't sign the sheet and the judges couldn't get him to after time was called) for a near win I had. So they can be very competative.

Really the army is very competative without the crazy good characters, it just comes down to a balanced list and a good commander.

Tiamat
14-02-2008, 16:34
Hmmm, I must have missed that paragraph.

Certainly by reading their inaugural battle report, they don't seem even slightly wussy to me, wiping out any 2000 point army is no small accomplishment, even if the opponent did make mistakes.

I've never been to a tournament (I find regular tournament players are generally competative at the expense of fun), but with a decent collection, you can build a list that can easily face any opponent with a decent chance of winning, properly used of course.

I figure the secret is being cheap, you can shoe horn in a little bit of everything so long as you don't go nutz on individual units and characters.

sigur
14-02-2008, 16:43
Guys...you complain about some (mis-read) wording of a "designer's notes"-like opening paragraph in a Codex? Those usually are the least interesting and unmeaning things in the world.

@Tiamat: You really want to make a point by referring to a battle report in WD? From the months Orks got released?:D

Tiamat
14-02-2008, 16:52
@Tiamat: You really want to make a point by referring to a battle report in WD? From the months Orks got released?:D[/QUOTE]

Well when you say it like that you make it sound like a REALLY stupid idea, like when Han Solo was making off with his reward and Luke has a crack at him about looking after himself, makes him sound like a total git.

I wonder if got his second reward for coming back? :eyebrows:

canonesszaria
14-02-2008, 16:55
Sorry
But I have read the codex from cover to cover so I wasn't just going on the one sentance from the front of the book.

My main point was that from looking at the list and 2 good units that almost cry out that you need their special chacters for them to be really effective.
Namely Kommandos and Stormboys yes thier units are good but if you wanna win you almost need them. Now I'm not say you can't win without them just trying to make a combat effective army with oppimal usage of units thats balanced and fun.

Looking thought the foruams is another way to look at units and how they do in battle because unless you play you army a hundred times you can't get an effective poll of units than 10 people playing 10 games.

As far as the Battle report in the White Dwarf is NEVER a good comparision as to how good the army is. Because they always make the army they are releasing look good. Have you seen a battle report of a new army where the new army Lost.

Thank you for your replies.

Warlord Grell

bennietzel
14-02-2008, 16:59
@Tiamat: You really want to make a point by referring to a battle report in WD? From the months Orks got released?:D

haha, touche'

jfrazell
14-02-2008, 17:03
Your use of improper language? :angel:

sigur
14-02-2008, 17:07
@Tiamat: Sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your little Star Wars story. Anyway, I do indeed think that referring to a WD batrep is not a good idea if you want to make a point about the relative strength of an army.

@canonesszaria: As we're talking about movies, a quote came to my mind. "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. "
I really think that we should have games (more than one) with the new Orks before we can really judge the list. In Warhammer (even 40k), things look very different on the paper than they really are in-game.

The Orange
14-02-2008, 17:15
Now I'm not say you can't win without them...
Then where's the problem? Not everything works against every army, thats part of the game. Some units are probably better all-a-rounders against many armies, while others are better against specific armies.


Looking thought the forums is another way to look at units and how they do in battle because unless you play you army a hundred times you can't get an effective poll of units than 10 people playing 10 games.
I don't agree. I've read the forums, I know that mecha Tau is a fav strategy of the Tau players, but I still don't play that way. I also know kroot aren't a fav of quite a few Tau players, but I always use them. You know what I've found out by not listening to forum goers using the hottest builds? Kroot absolutely eat genestelaers (a bit surprising no?). Do you often hear about how well Kroot can actually preform in hth? No because most mech Tau players don't use them, not to mention most people face off against MEQ's (where kroot don't preform so well in hth, another tid bit I've learned from experience). Also another consideration that most people forget to think about on the net is weather a player can play a certain play style. Just because a lot of Ork players play well using SCs does not mean you'll be able to pull off the same strategy they play by. You'll have your own personal strategies that you can effectively pull off and it's those that you should build your army around.

Matt_stanley75
14-02-2008, 17:16
Orks, with the new codex, can outshoot guard, tarpit and grind down most marine units with the use of Nobs, and are one of the few armies that can still "rhino rush". FC is a huge boost, their mobility via their trucks is outstanding. The boys can move 12, deploy 2, shoot twice per guy, and then charge, getting 3 attacks at S4 (shoota boys). And then there's the nob with PC. What's not to like? What's underpowered about that?

Da Black Gobbo
14-02-2008, 17:16
Orks underpowered hahahah that's good.

Irondog
14-02-2008, 17:18
To the OP,

Do you even play Orks?! I have been playing orks since the beginning of 4th edition, back when they were the 'laughing stock' army. I have NEVER fielded a special character and my win loss ratio is pretty good (I win way more games than I lose).

Since the new codex has been released, they're effectiveness has improved greatly. I still don't use any special characters, and I mop the floor with people. Maybe you should try playing the army, get a feel for them yourself. Don't just read the armylist and make assumptions.

For the record, Snikrot is cool. By taking him you get to jump on your opponent from any table edge (kinda like Space Wolf Scouts, only better), but you lose the option of a Nob with a powerklaw. I'll take the PK Nob anyday.

Zaggstrukk and his Stormboyz deploy by deepstrike and then get to charge. I don't know about you but deepstriking so that you're within charge range of an enemy is risky at best. The chance of losing the whole mob is very real. I'd rather take a PK Nob and use the stormboyz rokkit packs to get an extra D6" in the movement phase and then charge.

You might try testing some tactics yourself, and actually play a few games before making sweeping generalizations.

Sev38
14-02-2008, 17:20
First of all here is what that sentence actually says "The Ork army is NOT ONLY one of the most powerful in the 41st Millennium but also one of the most fun to play" so you misread it. Second from what I've read in battle reports stormboyz work just fine without their special character. They have the potential to move 18 inches a turn and then assault they really don't need zagstruk for his deepstriking ability to get stuck in quickly. I have had only 2 loses in the dozen or so games I've played with the new dex with a good number of draws in which almost everything on both sides was dead and several victories . I would probably have more victories than draws however I typically choose to do whats orky rather than whats smart such as yesterday when I charged squad after squad at an avatar when I could have sat back and shot it. I have never taken one of the special characters and do just fine so give the boyz a chance.

RampagingRavener
14-02-2008, 17:24
OP;

Read This. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127610) Then read the article linked to in Voodoo Boyz's signature. Then go re-read your codex. It's a very, very powerful codex, potentially at the moment one of the most powerful, and in several ways is going to get even better when 5th edition rolls in. Special characters are far, far from needed in it. Zagstruk is often as much a hindrence to a unit of Stormboyz, as he has to deepstrike, and can scatter away from his intended assault-target (and get wiped out by enemy shooting) or scatter into terrain and die. Snikkrot is fairly nasty, but lacks a PK and Kommandoz are kinda expensive for what you get. The only other stand-out Orky character is Gazzy, really, and he's too expensive for anything short of 2000+ point games.

So, no. It's not often I'll say this, but you're just plain wrong here.

sephiroth87
14-02-2008, 18:04
Sorry
But I have read the codex from cover to cover so I wasn't just going on the one sentance from the front of the book.

My main point was that from looking at the list and 2 good units that almost cry out that you need their special chacters for them to be really effective.
Namely Kommandos and Stormboys yes thier units are good but if you wanna win you almost need them. Now I'm not say you can't win without them just trying to make a combat effective army with oppimal usage of units thats balanced and fun.

Looking thought the foruams is another way to look at units and how they do in battle because unless you play you army a hundred times you can't get an effective poll of units than 10 people playing 10 games.

As far as the Battle report in the White Dwarf is NEVER a good comparision as to how good the army is. Because they always make the army they are releasing look good. Have you seen a battle report of a new army where the new army Lost.

Thank you for your replies.

Warlord Grell



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! :D

Play with the special characters a few times and give me that opinion again. Take Zagstrukk and a bunch of stormboyz. Put that squad down within 6'' of an opponent, then wait for that first scatter. Yeah, it's REALLY powerful to take him whenever you lose the whole squad by not rolling a hit. Usually you'll scatter yourself out of charge range (oops, we're getting shot!) or scatter onto the enemy squad (oops, we're dead!).

Stormboyz already come with fleet. They already get second turn assaults and don't need an expensive character to do it.

Second, snikrot is pretty good, until a dreadnought comes backwards and charges you. Try getting those guys out of a combat they can't win. It's a 200+ point unit with a 6+ save. The lack of a nob with a power klaw means they have to be very careful with what they charge, or else they're going to get stuck in for a long period of time.

These special characters have some huge liabilities that the regular squads don't come with.

You also don't take into account other units. In about 6 months, you're going to see a bunch of people start singing the praises of the dreadnought troop choice. Not only will it be a scoring unit, it's essentially a fourth heavy support, a solid big shoota platform, and a capable fighter in close combat.

Kans are accurate and great rokkit platforms.

The lootas shoot a bucketload of shots.

Buggies are just as good as they always were and work great for flank shots against tanks and for scoring units.

The much maligned grots are again going to provide cover saves next edition, if the pre release rules are any indication.

Shoota boyz do everything well and sluggas are great coming out of trucks. The sluggas are going to be even better with the new run rule.

Bikes are tough and throw out a ton of shots that are fairly accurate.

Burnaboyz all have flamethrowers and/or power weapons, and can roast whole units.

Tankbustas provide an anti-tank threat and they all get rokkits (gifts from Gork!)

Nobs and Meganobs all do things pretty well and if you use their trukks' speed to pick their fights well, they'll mow stuff down.

The 'koptas scout rule means it can get first turn flank shots against tanks.

The flash gits provide a gap in the army, being a fairly solid source of low AP weaponry.

Meks and warbosses are both better than any of the special characters. For a much cheaper price, both of them do the nearly the same jobs as any of the special characters. And the warphead is just fun and can do some really powerful stuff given decent rolls.

Battlewagons are your one source of AV 14 and can carry boyz or kill tanks with equal ease, on top of being a solid big shoota platform.

Big Gunz are dirt cheap and provide another source of tank-kill that will often be overlooked by your opponents.

Finally, looted wagons are great carriers for burnaboyz or tankbustas and will be even better if the 5th edition rules take out the entangling rule like they do now. They also do well in a pinch for throwing out ordnance templates if you can use the terrain to get hull down and move from behind it to shoot.


Even what's considered the orks' bad choices aren't near as bad as what I've seen of other armies' choices. You're not going to see many cookie cutter lists with the orks simply because there's so many ways to make a solid army list. I would prefer the book rules to be better written sometimes. However, no one is going to deny it's got the most style out of all the new codecii.

While the army book is sometimes wonky with its proofreading (dakkaguns, anyone?),I'd rather have a balanced, fun, and solid book with bad proofreading over an unbalanced book that tells me the crappy, unbalanced rules perfectly.

With the new book, I'm at 9 wins, 3 losses, and 1 draw. I'm pleased with what I've been given.

Colonial Rifle
14-02-2008, 18:15
Sephiroth87 - well said.

The OP has NO IDEA what they are talking about.

Malforus
14-02-2008, 18:16
Bravo, good post oh Son of Jenova.


Do you know what cheezes me off about orks...they drink fungal beer...How do I make beer from fungus? Why must they taunt me with this mystical beer that I can't have?

intellectawe
14-02-2008, 18:58
Bravo, good post oh Son of Jenova.


Do you know what cheezes me off about orks...they drink fungal beer...How do I make beer from fungus? Why must they taunt me with this mystical beer that I can't have?

They squeeze the juices from each other.

Orks are cannibals.

Malforus
14-02-2008, 18:59
So orks physicology have an alchohol content...is that why ork hunters scream arggggg!....They drank the blood of their enemy and now they have hangovers?

intellectawe
14-02-2008, 19:09
So orks physicology have an alchohol content...is that why ork hunters scream arggggg!....They drank the blood of their enemy and now they have hangovers?

Orks are fungal creatures. So if the drink Fungal Beer, they are in essence, drinking their own juices.

:eyebrows:

canonesszaria
14-02-2008, 19:10
Wow

I guess you all Think I'm a COMPLETE IDIOT

We'll for One thing I Have never once said orks are bad. I Did misread that one sentence but everything else has pretty much been what I have heard on these foruem. Unfortunately due to work and family I have not had a chance toplay with the new dex. My complaint was on how they were veiwed by many as only a fun army and not a compitive one. I do love the new rules for the army and can't wait to play them.

Have none of the rest of you guys sent that generlizeation on orks here in the foruems as we'll.

And I have been playing orks since 3rd edtion when that codex came out.

And just to Repeat myself I never once said orks were underpowered or weak.

Warboss Grell

Bunnahabhain
14-02-2008, 19:12
Well, to be pedantic, Yeast is a fungus, so our beer could be said to be fungus beer.

Horus38
14-02-2008, 19:29
My complaint was on how they were veiwed by many as only a fun army and not a compitive one.

I don't know what posts you've been reading but I've gathered since the release of the new orks that there are all kinds of competitive builds.

Grimtuff
14-02-2008, 19:31
Wow

I guess you all Think I'm a COMPLETE IDIOT

We'll for One thing I Have never once said orks are bad. I Did misread that one sentence but everything else has pretty much been what I have heard on these foruem. Unfortunately due to work and family I have not had a chance toplay with the new dex. My complaint was on how they were veiwed by many as only a fun army and not a compitive one. I do love the new rules for the army and can't wait to play them.

Have none of the rest of you guys sent that generlizeation on orks here in the foruems as we'll.

And I have been playing orks since 3rd edtion when that codex came out.

And just to Repeat myself I never once said orks were underpowered or weak.

Warboss Grell

Yes you did, you came across as a "make a uber list for me GW as my self-esteem cannot take the humiliation of defeat in a game of toy soldiers"

A fun list and a competative one are NOT mutally exclusive terms, I suggest you have a read of my sig as your gaming philosiphy needs to change somewhat.

canonesszaria
14-02-2008, 19:44
So Grim

Are you saying that you can't make a fun list that wins.

I have always tried to play my orks as Orky as I can and have fun but I also try to make my lists combat effective while having fun.

I beleive your statement is Saying that you can only have fun with an army or use it to win with and that it wrong to beleive it can do both. Where I want an army thats fun and competivie.
Or am i wrong.

I apoligize to evryone if I came off as someone coplining about the list.
I was more pertubed with the veiw i got from the foruem.

Sorry for the confusion.
Warlord Grell

Lord Solar Plexus
14-02-2008, 20:16
Orks, with the new codex, can outshoot guard

Yes, if you've waylayed the IG player on his way to the game.

A.S.modai
14-02-2008, 20:16
I think it's harder to make a Non competitive list with the orks.

Lemme try:

HQ: Big Mek 35pts
Mega armor 40 pts

Troops:30 grots +3 runherds 120pts
Troops:30 grots +3 runherds 120pts

Elite: 15 burna boys with 3 big meks with big shootas 225pts

Fast:3 war buggies with skorchas 120pts

Hvy: 3 looted wagons with boom guns 315pts

that's 975. Id throw some red paint and riggers around to bring it up to 1k
Thats the suckiest I can come up with. Sorry it still throws 3 pie plates a round.

sukigod
14-02-2008, 20:35
Wow... (shakes head). Competitive is part of the fun, otherwise, why play? Not mutually exclusive as others have posted. I wonder what the real complaint here is then?

Matt_stanley75
14-02-2008, 21:26
Orks, with the new codex, can outshoot guard
Yes, if you've waylayed the IG player on his way to the game.

Orks seem to have a heck of a lot more boots on the ground than my guard army, and what they lack in skill they make up for with DAKKA.

Gensuke626
14-02-2008, 22:13
So Grim

Are you saying that you can't make a fun list that wins.

I have always tried to play my orks as Orky as I can and have fun but I also try to make my lists combat effective while having fun.

I beleive your statement is Saying that you can only have fun with an army or use it to win with and that it wrong to beleive it can do both. Where I want an army thats fun and competivie.
Or am i wrong.

I apoligize to evryone if I came off as someone coplining about the list.
I was more pertubed with the veiw i got from the foruem.

Sorry for the confusion.
Warlord Grell

I want to start off by saying that this is the reason you've recieved such a negative response from the forum. Someone says exactly what you say you want, ie a fun AND competative army, and you bite his head off. way to make friends there Grell.:rolleyes:



My main point was that from looking at the list and 2 good units that almost cry out that you need their special chacters for them to be really effective.
Namely Kommandos and Stormboys yes thier units are good but if you wanna win you almost need them. Now I'm not say you can't win without them just trying to make a combat effective army with oppimal usage of units thats balanced and fun.


You know, Kommandos and Stormboys don't cry out to me that they need the Special Characters. To be honest, the special characters do make the units better, but its not as if they're useless without them. Stormboyz can move 12+D6" every turn and charge 6" ontop of that. 15-20 of them with a PK nob is just as good as Zagstruck led stormboyz because you've got much more control of the unit. Zagstruck lets you pull a great surprise attack, but you risk losing a ton of boyz in the Deep Strike and you lose D3 more if you do take the charge on that turn.

Same goes for Kommandos, if you take Snikrot, you can't take a PK nob in that Kommando unit. The loss of a PK nob is a serious setback to the mob, and generally if you want the kommandos to be as killy as with a PK nob, you'd want to take a ton of them. On top of that, you have to reserves roll them, which means that there's a good chance that they wont show up when you need them.

You're over reacting to how awesome the character's special rules are and thinking that the units NEED the crutch to work properly.

kikkoman
14-02-2008, 22:19
I think your point was

"it's annoying that orks are the 'hey, they're fun! (competitive...? we didn't think about it lol)" army

while Eldar are the "specialized dudes, master them and you are a total badass"
and Marines are the "marines are da emperors finest and bestest and frump everyone else and are dead 'ard an, an... play marines!"

like you gotta put a disclaimer when talking about orks.

The Orange
14-02-2008, 22:57
We'll for One thing I Have never once said orks are bad....

My complaint was on how they were viewed by many as only a fun army and not a competitive one.

:confused: So your ranting on the perception of orks by the forum?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you had a problem with SC being the crutch of units, and how 2 particular units are a must in every army. In my book that means your complaining about the army, not what others think about that army.

Grimtuff
14-02-2008, 23:03
So Grim

Are you saying that you can't make a fun list that wins.


:confused::eyebrows::rolleyes:

I never said that at all. Somebody needs to read up on what mutual exclusivity is. I AM saying you can make a fun list that wins, not all "winning" lists are Mech Eldar or the old Irow Warrior pie plate army of doom.

llama rider
14-02-2008, 23:34
dude the game is all about having fun
the tournaments are competative, but thats not what its all about
and plus, the writers probably said that just so people wouldnt accuse them of stacking the orks against other races

Brother Loki
15-02-2008, 09:11
So Grim

Are you saying that you can't make a fun list that wins.




No, he is saying you CAN make a fun list that wins. That they are NOT mutually exclusive. You are coming across as a very aggressive poster who attacks other people without reading what they have said.

Look around the forums since the new ork codex has come out. I don't think you'll find many 'orks are weak' threads, but you'll find several 'orks are overpowered' threads. Nobody thinks the new ork codex is underpowered any more.

Latro_
15-02-2008, 10:13
To the OP, why are you assuming 'fun' means something is non competative.
Orks have an always will have that 'goofy' aspect to them, the 'if it dont fit hit it arder' mentality. It does not mean the humour and character they have infects their playability, it sits ontop of it.

You can be a cold faced running the numbers cunning power gamer tourney player from hell with the ork codex just as you can with all lists. There are ork lists out there that are sickening.

Of course you can also write a themed list as you can with every army and play more on the fluff and 'fun' then how brutally you're gonna rape your opponent's army.

This is not a orks issue its a general balance of 40k. In every army you can write army lists that are fun to play with, do cool stuff, have interesting units with cool rules but they may or may not be the best lists in a fight. On the flip side you have the turney lists, the stats driven efficient killing machine lists, which of course may or may not be as fun to game with. I suspect there isnt a set curve in these two groups of lists, that the more competative your list gets the less fun it is. That probabily comes from the mentality of the player more than the army list at hand.

gitburna
15-02-2008, 10:44
Sorry but I just have to rant about this

While Reading my new Ork Codex The writers state in their opening paragraphs that Orks are not the one of the most powerful armies out there but you'll have alot of fun with them.

Now I'm sorry when I get an Army I do want it to be fun. But I also want it to be effective in tournaments and I want it to be able to win game without spaming special chacters. Which from what i have read in the foruams is about the only really effective ways to win with the orks. Don't think that I just want a powerful army I just want the Army I love to be able to go to a tournament and win not just have fun.


Uh Give me a break! Orks not actually powerful unless they take a special character? What a crock!

The only really effective way to win ?!

This is absurd, clearly you are not an ork but actually some kind of dissent/false information Tau or maybe a Callidus assassin. We are not buying into your falsehoods.

Supremearchmarshal
15-02-2008, 12:16
I think it's harder to make a Non competitive list with the orks.

Lemme try:

HQ: Big Mek 35pts
Mega armor 40 pts

Troops:30 grots +3 runherds 120pts
Troops:30 grots +3 runherds 120pts

Elite: 15 burna boys with 3 big meks with big shootas 225pts

Fast:3 war buggies with skorchas 120pts

Hvy: 3 looted wagons with boom guns 315pts

that's 975. Id throw some red paint and riggers around to bring it up to 1k
Thats the suckiest I can come up with. Sorry it still throws 3 pie plates a round.

Nah, just load up on Nobz and Flash Gitz - you'll be really hard-pressed to win with that.

newpaintbrush
15-02-2008, 15:39
Sorry but I just have to rant about this

While Reading my new Ork Codex The writers state in their opening paragraphs that Orks are not the one of the most powerful armies out there but you'll have alot of fun with them.

Now I'm sorry when I get an Army I do want it to be fun. But I also want it to be effective in tournaments and I want it to be able to win game without spaming special chacters. Which from what i have read in the foruams is about the only really effective ways to win with the orks. Don't think that I just want a powerful army I just want the Army I love to be able to go to a tournament and win not just have fun.

Warlord Grell
Blood Axes

GW has decided to return to tragi-comedic idiot loser Orks.

Mostly because a lot of veteran Ork-playing idiots that say "TEE HEE" when they lose demanded it.

Oh well. Bloody idiots.

Brother Loki
15-02-2008, 15:51
Orks were one of the most popular armies in 1st and 2nd edition. Their popularity fell off with the more 'serious' approach taken in 3rd, even before they were left behind by other codices. Maybe the reason the 'bloody idiots' as you called them decided to return to their roots a little is because more people like it that way. The new codex seems to have worked - they've gone from a bottom tier army to a top tier army overnight, and the general buzz around them is very positive.

A.S.modai
15-02-2008, 17:21
Nah, just load up on Nobz and Flash Gitz - you'll be really hard-pressed to win with that.

I dunno, nobz can be bada$$.

I've played a few games with the new dex and I absolutely love it. There are so many ways to play it, so many competetive lists, so many options....

It's just plain fun and it has all of the orky flavor and none of the after taste. I have yet to use the good stuff even (hidden ic's, lootas, coptas).

I'm one of those rogue trader geezers and I have to say the balance between comical and effective has been struck. In 2nd, basically every single effective weapon was one dice roll away from some catastrophic event for the orks. In smaller games it could make or break you. It was hilarious but could be frustrating.

I think now, you can take the unpredictable units (sag) and it isn't quite as dangerous but the random effects and comedy are still there.

I remember when you had to roll for each storm boy and if there was a mishap, they exploded, shot off the table, crashed, etc. You always took 20%casualties by the time you reached them. Or the pulsa rokkit...

LordFulgrim
15-02-2008, 17:38
They squeeze the juices from each other.

Way too much info! Well they don't have any lady-orks so...:eyebrows: Oh yeah...spores...

As for the Orks new codex being under- or overpowered (there's loads of folks complaining in both camps) I don't know but I will be playing them this Sunday so I'll see for myself.

The Orange
15-02-2008, 17:56
GW has decided to return to tragi-comedic idiot loser Orks.

I like comic orks, just because they can be funny does not mean their tragic idiot losers. How can you not love the story about the ork biker gunning his NOS and giving the bird to another ork biker because he was going to get into combat with the enemy first :p (who were Tau IIRC :().

Plastic Parody
15-02-2008, 18:31
GW has decided to return to tragi-comedic idiot loser Orks.

Mostly because a lot of veteran Ork-playing idiots that say "TEE HEE" when they lose demanded it.

Oh well. Bloody idiots.

Thats a tad harsh there, they threw in some amusing results for the Shokk Attack gun, wartrukks blowing up and that all that spring to mind. Its hardly swung in the comedy direction hugely so dont know where you have picked that up.


Orks were one of the most popular armies in 1st and 2nd edition. Their popularity fell off with the more 'serious' approach taken in 3rd, even before they were left behind by other codices. Maybe the reason the 'bloody idiots' as you called them decided to return to their roots a little is because more people like it that way. The new codex seems to have worked - they've gone from a bottom tier army to a top tier army overnight, and the general buzz around them is very positive.

Well said, if anything the fact that an ork boy is the same cost as my Guardsmen but better makes me think eeek!!!!!

Supremearchmarshal
15-02-2008, 18:49
I dunno, nobz can be bada$$.

They can be good if they get a transport vehicle, but otherwise they're just not worth it - boyz are IMO always better. Another problem is that they actually have the lowest morale in the army except for Bikers and Deffkoptas. Also IMO Orks are all about numbers - and Nobz are just expensive. The Flash Gitz look good, but their main problem is that they're expensive and only have BS 2.


I'm one of those rogue trader geezers and I have to say the balance between comical and effective has been struck. In 2nd, basically every single effective weapon was one dice roll away from some catastrophic event for the orks. In smaller games it could make or break you. It was hilarious but could be frustrating.

Agreed. The new Ork codex is spot on. Or actually... maybe they should do an appendix one day to bring back some of the classic units like Madboyz and Boarboyz - then it would be perfect.

Meriwether
15-02-2008, 19:15
They can be good if they get a transport vehicle, but otherwise they're just not worth it - boyz are IMO always better.

Nobz on foot = bad.
Nobz in trukk = good.
Nobz on bikes = good but too expensive.

Flash gitz are really hit-or-miss for me. I've used them in about six games, and about half the time they've done spectacularly well, and the other half they've just fizzled.

I have a hard time dishing out those kinds of points for that big a gamble in any kind of competitive game (such as a tourney), but would happily bring them in a goofing-around list.

Meri

Supremearchmarshal
15-02-2008, 19:54
I have a hard time dishing out those kinds of points for that big a gamble in any kind of competitive game (such as a tourney), but would happily bring them in a goofing-around list.

Yeah, that's what I think too - they seem more like stuff for Apcoalypse where you can afford to take more expensive units

superknijn
15-02-2008, 19:58
Meh, if you don't have an Orkish mentality, don't play them. Playing Orks is a state of mind.

Draconian77
15-02-2008, 21:26
And if you have arachnaphobia don't play Nids...

I have yet to play the new Ork dex but it seems they have the same advantages(Numbers/Speed/Combat) and disadvantages(Inaccuarate/Vulrenable to Pie Plates/Short Ranged) as before except now their advantages are in synch with other armies(You can horde enough boyz now that a few bolter holding marines won't shoot you down)

SquishySquig
15-02-2008, 22:16
:skull: I put the ork characters in the "They're there for Fun" Catagory. I think they are all pretty cool and have great character, but I don't see them actually adding anything overly useful to the list, they just allow you to shake things up a bit once in a while. Like I took Wazzdakka in an Apocalypse game and gave him the vortex grenade. Then the last Turn I drove him into it saying that it was his gateway to another world so that he could continue his ride across the galaxy. Kind of a ride off into the sunset sort of thing. :skull:

Brother Siccarius
15-02-2008, 22:16
Sorry but I just have to rant about this

While Reading my new Ork Codex The writers state in their opening paragraphs that Orks are not the one of the most powerful armies out there but you'll have alot of fun with them.

Now I'm sorry when I get an Army I do want it to be fun. But I also want it to be effective in tournaments and I want it to be able to win game without spaming special chacters. Which from what i have read in the foruams is about the only really effective ways to win with the orks. Don't think that I just want a powerful army I just want the Army I love to be able to go to a tournament and win not just have fun.

Warlord Grell
Blood Axes

You will have fun, but what that opening paragraph means is that you're not going to get some over-powered monster of an army from the orks, but you'll still be able to win. It's the way orks always have been and always will be. We aren't about winning all the time, we're about having fun. If you want to win all the time and can't have fun without socking it to your opponent, find another army, please. You can still be competitive, don't get me wrong, but orks aren't looking to be the "be all, win all" army. I always get confused as to why people think that even at tournaments you have to win all your matches or your army is broken.

If you've only been reading the General Forums, then yeah, they do all say to spam characters. Read the Who Loves Orks? thread for some more...objective looks. Or heck, go onto the WAAAGH! in their tactics forum.

Orks are a gamble, if you can't stand to take the loss and have a laugh at yourself for it, don't take them.

Thud
15-02-2008, 22:48
You will have fun, but what that opening paragraph means is that you're not going to get some over-powered monster of an army from the orks, but you'll still be able to win. It's the way orks always have been and always will be. We aren't about winning all the time, we're about having fun. If you want to win all the time and can't have fun without socking it to your opponent, find another army, please. You can still be competitive, don't get me wrong, but orks aren't looking to be the "be all, win all" army. I always get confused as to why people think that even at tournaments you have to win all your matches or your army is broken.

If you've only been reading the General Forums, then yeah, they do all say to spam characters. Read the Who Loves Orks? thread for some more...objective looks. Or heck, go onto the WAAAGH! in their tactics forum.

Orks are a gamble, if you can't stand to take the loss and have a laugh at yourself for it, don't take them.

I urge you to read what has already been posted in the thread before replying to the first post. As has been stated by several posters, myself included, is that it does in fact NOT say what the OP thought it does, but the exact opposite. The exact quote is "The Ork army is not only one of the most powerful in the 41st millennium (...)" Now if you'd taken the bother to read beyond the first post, you'd have known that.

I'm sorry to be such an ****, but these things really annoy me.

Meriwether
15-02-2008, 23:46
:skull: I put the ork characters in the "They're there for Fun" Catagory. I think they are all pretty cool and have great character, but I don't see them actually adding anything overly useful to the list, they just allow you to shake things up a bit once in a while.

Snikrot + 15 (well, really 14) kommandoz + 2 burnaz = *******' awesome.

Meri

Glabro
16-02-2008, 01:25
Give the OP a break. He obviously hasn't got a clue.

Altashheth
16-02-2008, 07:53
Hmmm, I must have missed that paragraph.

Certainly by reading their inaugural battle report, they don't seem even slightly wussy to me, wiping out any 2000 point army is no small accomplishment, even if the opponent did make mistakes.

I've never been to a tournament (I find regular tournament players are generally competative at the expense of fun), but with a decent collection, you can build a list that can easily face any opponent with a decent chance of winning, properly used of course.

I figure the secret is being cheap, you can shoe horn in a little bit of everything so long as you don't go nutz on individual units and characters.

Is that the WD battle rep where the marine player takes a rounded army, without whilwinds and including an annialator with lascannons all around, v 2000pts of orks that take 3 HQ choices and 7 troop choices despite not filling the first FOC? Seemed a bit biased to me.

Brother Siccarius
16-02-2008, 09:13
I urge you to read what has already been posted in the thread before replying to the first post. As has been stated by several posters, myself included, is that it does in fact NOT say what the OP thought it does, but the exact opposite. The exact quote is "The Ork army is not only one of the most powerful in the 41st millennium (...)" Now if you'd taken the bother to read beyond the first post, you'd have known that.

I'm sorry to be such an ****, but these things really annoy me.


Now I'm sorry when I get an Army I do want it to be fun. But I also want it to be effective in tournaments and I want it to be able to win game without spaming special chacters. Which from what i have read in the foruams is about the only really effective ways to win with the orks. Don't think that I just want a powerful army I just want the Army I love to be able to go to a tournament and win not just have fun.

Warlord Grell
Blood Axes

This last part of the original post makes me wonder if I wasn't right to post what I did. It's in response to the entire post, not just the first sentence, perhaps if you had bothered to read my entire post.... :p

There's also these posts in the topic that I was in response to:


Wow... (shakes head). Competitive is part of the fun, otherwise, why play? Not mutually exclusive as others have posted. I wonder what the real complaint here is then?
and the discussion on mutual exclusivity and how it relates to fun/competativeness that came afterwords (I hope I don't need to quote all of them, it lasted all of last page you know).

Sure, I quoted the OP, but that's because the topic was about what really annoys the OP, not everyone else.;)

sukigod
17-02-2008, 15:39
This last part of the original post makes me wonder if I wasn't right to post what I did. It's in response to the entire post, not just the first sentence, perhaps if you had bothered to read my entire post.... :p

There's also these posts in the topic that I was in response to:


and the discussion on mutual exclusivity and how it relates to fun/competativeness that came afterwords (I hope I don't need to quote all of them, it lasted all of last page you know).

Sure, I quoted the OP, but that's because the topic was about what really annoys the OP, not everyone else.;)

Woops, I thinik I may have worded my sentance wrong. I agree that competitive lists and fun are not exclusive to each other. I was agreeing with some other posted questioning why the OP thought you couldn't have both.

Personally, I don't use the special characters, even for tournament lists. I can use the extra points elsewhere, extra shots,wounds, etc.

Sorry for any confusion on that.:D

intellectawe
17-02-2008, 16:34
And if you have arachnaphobia don't play Nids...

So.... because I have fear of spiders, I shouldn't play an army based on Dinosaurs? I don't follow you.


I have yet to play the new Ork dex but it seems they have the same advantages(Numbers/Speed/Combat) and disadvantages(Inaccuarate/Vulrenable to Pie Plates/Short Ranged) as before except now their advantages are in synch with other armies(You can horde enough boyz now that a few bolter holding marines won't shoot you down)

You are incorrect. Orks can now shoot 'better' than ever ( more reliable ), as they have MORE mass shooting than ever before ( can you say 45 strength 7 ap 4 shots at 48" from one unit), more Ord. weapons than ever before (5 Ords and tons of G weapons from Grots in one list ), and who isn't vulnerable to pie plates?

I play Orks, and when a pie plate kills 8 orks out of a 30 ork mob, they are fearless and just keep coming. Tell that to the Tau or IG who get hit by pie plates....

cerealkiller195
17-02-2008, 17:04
the whole mistake came from 'reading the forums' they are not the be all end all. I have a friend who always lifts lists (in any game GW or not) off the net, guess what happens to him? He gets wrecked because he does not know how to play the list.

That is my main gripe about army list forums, people lift lists and all the work is done for them. They don't look to create their own lists rather they just want something to win with, they shape and form a list till they all look the same.

I like to make lists that i enjoy gaming i don't care about theory hammer and whats more effective than what. If i like the way a unit looks they are making it into my army list and through trial and error i will find a way to MAKE them work.

Also for all those marine players that are bitching about the White Dwarf battle report... hey the marine player could of packed more anti-ork weapons... But also in every battle report that Space Marines played in their opponent could have packed more anti-MEQ weapons no? Quit complaining even the poster image marine boys have to take a blow every now and then.