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Victomorga
14-02-2008, 20:18
What do people see as the worst item / troop choice / upgrade in their codex?

What would you NEVER take, and why?

Over priced, nerfed, inaffective, generally lame, whatever the reason, whatever the army, lets hear about it. Even if it's just something that seems sound, but that somehow never quite works when YOU try it.

(and remember guys, no fighting over tactics. Stories from personal experience are cool, but this isn't a tactica thread).

A.S.modai
14-02-2008, 20:23
For one, DA scouts. When they were troops I always fielded, now they're elites? meh.

Son of Makuta
14-02-2008, 20:24
Hmm. Got nobody to flame (only joking! :p), so I'll think up something...

Guardians. I play a purist Swordwind-type army. Aspect Warriors yes; Guardians no.

Oh, and Tyranid Warriors in HQ slots. Other than combat patrol... what's the point? I love my Hive Tyrants :D

northoceanbeach
14-02-2008, 20:33
I have a personal dislike for stormtroopers and or chimeras. I just think they are both rediculously overpriced. 10 points for a guy with a lasgun? No way. And 90 points for a chimera is just insane. Put them together and add 2 plasma and you've got a 200 point squad. For that cost you could get:

Eldrad
10 man tactical squad
20 Dark Eldar warriors with 4 lance weapons
a leman russ and 10 guard
a dakkafex and 5 genestealers
33 orks
...

IAMNOTHERE
14-02-2008, 20:44
Purity seals on Grey knights:

You get to roll an extra d6 when you fall back and discard one of your choice.

GK are fearless and so never fall back.

rebmonk
14-02-2008, 20:46
Kroot :evilgrin:

Inquisitor Gideon
14-02-2008, 20:49
I got one better than Kroot. Sister Repentia ;)

victorpofa
14-02-2008, 20:57
Assault Marines in a Space Wolf force. Premium cost with Guardsman/scout stats. Even the overpriced Terminators are better value.

Grumbeard Starbreaker
14-02-2008, 21:02
Almost all the Witch Hunters Anti psychic weapons.
Thats becous nobody at our place uses psykers.

catbarf
14-02-2008, 21:07
Ogryns. Oh joy, a dedicated assault unit that's just as good at it as Tactical Marines.

Hicks
14-02-2008, 21:08
For my guards the answer is easy. No it's not storm troopers, chimeras, techpriests or even ogryns. The prize goes to priests and psykers.

I cannot fathom what the designers were thinking when they made these, one is a terribly overpriced and the other one has random powers that all suck anyways.

EDIT: Wouhou! 666th post \m/

The Guy
14-02-2008, 21:14
Assault termies.
Basically do the same thing as normal ones.Just can't shoot

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-02-2008, 21:30
Has no one mentioned Spawn? Seriously, what is the point there? I think Spawn win the thread, frankly.

Orcboy_Phil
14-02-2008, 21:36
Has no one mentioned Spawn? Seriously, what is the point there? I think Spawn win the thread, frankly.

Tankbusters... thread over.

Angelus Mortis
14-02-2008, 21:37
Clearly you guys missed Auspex/Surveyors. How many people you see buy these, and even when they do, how many get to use it or forget to use it? Exactly.

Malorian
14-02-2008, 21:41
Tankbusters... thread over.

What?!??! Tankbustas are great!!! As long as you limit their LOS you can out shoot marines!!!

The new versions of the old looted ork tanks, now those are garbage. Especially the new "bassilisk"... what a waste of a model...

badnewsblair
14-02-2008, 21:42
I'm going with Eldar Guardians.

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-02-2008, 21:53
I'm going with Eldar Guardians.

Guardians: Decently pointed. Armor Save (even if garbage). Controllable. Ranged weaponry (even if short). Decent at what they're meant to do. And, yet again, controllable.

Spawn: Far overcosted. No armor of any kind. Not controllable in pretty much any time but deployment. No ranged attack. Supposed to be a tarpit but falls to small arms fire long before it does its job.

The only plus with Spawn is, if you've completely maxed out everything else, you can take them without taking up a Force Org slot. But even then, you'd be better off with Summoned Daemons. And that's saying something.

Zagstruk
14-02-2008, 21:55
Hmm....I'd have to go with Incenerators in Grey knight squads. An assault weapon that vastly lowers your combat abilities when you get there? WTF

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-02-2008, 22:01
Well, I'd propose that the Incinerator is meant to vastly reduce the combat abilities of the enemy (i.e. numbers) so that the remainder of the squadmates of the Incinerator guy can rip them to shreds. But I see your point a little bit.

EDIT: I think Vespid are a contender too.

TRICorp
14-02-2008, 22:07
Plasma Pistols in Chaos marine squads/raptors. Why pay 5 points MORE for a downgrade, compared to a melta gun??

Spawn too...bleh.

Angelus Mortis
14-02-2008, 22:08
Hmm....I'd have to go with Incenerators in Grey knight squads. An assault weapon that vastly lowers your combat abilities when you get there? WTF

You mean the Incinerator that hits everything under the template automatically, wounds non-PA armies on 2s and allows them no save at all (no armor, no invulnerable, no cover) and is an assault weapon is worthless because it removes 2 or at the most 3 attacks from the assault? This is some sort of joke right? I dont get it. Losing a 2 or 3 wound potential to get a 5+?

Victomorga
14-02-2008, 22:33
how about stuff that's tactically viable but just never works when you try it yourself?

(also, when posting please explain why you hate stuff, so people who don't know your codex will get why you think it is no good).

PondaNagura
14-02-2008, 22:42
anything involving individual flamers...yeah they're great for horde armies, like orks n nids, but if your squad is THAT close to a swarm of HtH gribblies, you might wanna rethink your tactics.

MALICIOUS LOGIC
14-02-2008, 22:45
If we include useless units is the discussion:

Necron Pariahs. They look good on paper. But they are expensive and largely ineffective.

Pariah’s aren’t very good in close combat (and you can’t teleport them out of melee). Immortals can do everything Pariahs can do as far as shooting. Plus they are cheaper, can teleport, can We’ll-Be-Back, and increase the phase-out number. Immortals make Pariahs completely useless.


~Logic

Bassik
14-02-2008, 22:53
I agree with Captain Jack.
I keep trying to use my Spawn, I keep telling myself that "they will have their uses", but no, they suck. They suck hiney from a straw.

Cirrus the Blue
14-02-2008, 22:57
Go figure, most of this stuff used to be worth taking long long ago. lol :D

- Cirrus

Perfect Organism
14-02-2008, 22:59
What makes me really love the new ork codex is that it's incredibly hard to pick anything in it as totally useless. I'm going to have to settle on zzap guns, which generally aren't as good as kannons at killing vehicles but cost more and can kill their own crew. Their only real advantage is that they can punch through 2+ armour saves, while the kannon is only AP 3.

The Orange
14-02-2008, 23:03
Kroot :evilgrin:
Hah, I've got you beat, the Kroot-Ox :evilgrin: (though I personally love them :()

And worse then that IMO is the ever awesome Ethereal.

The Guy
14-02-2008, 23:05
What makes me really love the new ork codex is that it's incredibly hard to pick anything in it as totally useless. I'm going to have to settle on zzap guns, which generally aren't as good as kannons at killing vehicles but cost more and can kill their own crew. Their only real advantage is that they can punch through 2+ armour saves, while the kannon is only AP 3.

On that note to Zzzap guns still hit automatically? :confused:
Anyway OT I'm gonna say grotz.
2 grotz or a slugga boy? Hmm decisions...
Grots still suck even with increased bs. s2 won't do anything

Mott
14-02-2008, 23:09
Wow...

IG Stormtroopers

Ogryns (new ones..)

Techpriests

Spawn

Pariahs

Kroot

I agree these are terrible choices for teir respective armies,

but all these worthless units have some of the best minis from GW. :cries:

go figure

junglesnake
14-02-2008, 23:18
Com links or the vox casters as they are now known.

5pts a unit - they are only worth taking if your general has Ld 9/10 and has a master vox caster in his command sqd otherwise you are better off having a vet srg with the extra attack.

As for spawn - it seems like people seem to be placing them out in the open a bit. I could argue that my catachans suck because in the open they basicaly get no save - but then I wouldn't put them in the open if I could help it!

Zagstruk
14-02-2008, 23:19
You mean the Incinerator that hits everything under the template automatically, wounds non-PA armies on 2s and allows them no save at all (no armor, no invulnerable, no cover) and is an assault weapon is worthless because it removes 2 or at the most 3 attacks from the assault? This is some sort of joke right? I dont get it. Losing a 2 or 3 wound potential to get a 5+?

Actually that is what i mean. lets look at what you get for the extra 10/15 points (don't have codex with me at moment) gets you
you lose an attack on the defense, S6 in CC, and your 24" range gun (which will usually get in 4-6 shots and can run away if necessary and still be useful
you get: a template weapon, on a squad that has no transport option, and a low model count, and might get in range against a fairly static army in oh, 3 turns or so, if it isn't dead by then, and might kill a few guys if(here's the big if) they aren't in power armor, or with a modetate T, and aren't spaced out.

So lets see, it's 9/10 times useless(or horribly inefficent) against the following: Mobile armies, MEQ's, and elite armies. The ONLY times I've seen it do anything good is against termaguants, outsie of that everything it would've been good against either left or spaced out enough to make it almost useless I don't about you but the only time I've seen a template hit 5+ models is when I used a hellhound that came on the board that turn to hit an enemy unit, and that was only because I could rotate it to face away from me

Gensuke626
14-02-2008, 23:37
Tankbusters... thread over.

From personal experience, Tankbustas are much better now than they were in old Codex. They're alittle more expensive, picked up a limiting special rule, and lost Tank hunters...but now they ALL get a Rokkit Launcha, so I can save points by not taking a nob. So far my Tankbustas have killed a Land Raider and a Devilfish (killing about 5 Fire Warriors in the Process), and since I spend less than 100 points on them...


What?!??! Tankbustas are great!!! As long as you limit their LOS you can out shoot marines!!!

The new versions of the old looted ork tanks, now those are garbage. Especially the new "bassilisk"... what a waste of a model...

The new Ork Looted Wagons are only a waste if you use them as a Front Line Tank...Or trick them out and Expect them to Survive. I have 2 in my 1500 list. One uses a Boom gun and mostly sits back to pound units with the Ordnance blast...or advances and pounds something. The other just has 2 Big Shootas, a Grabbin Claw and a Wreckin ball, and Red Paint. And maybe grots...it comes out to be a pretty cheap transport for my Tank bustas, and it works pretty good for me.


On that note to Zzzap guns still hit automatically? :confused:
Anyway OT I'm gonna say grotz.
2 grotz or a slugga boy? Hmm decisions...
Grots still suck even with increased bs. s2 won't do anything

Zzapp guns lost the Auto-Hit rule, but now on an 11 or 12 they fry a grot, but fire at S10. The new grots kinda suck, but really, you buy them for the Runtherd with a Grabba Stick to help Tarpit MCs or squads of things like Terminators..

Really, the only thing I can think of that is the worst buy in the Ork Codex is Kaptain Badrukk. If you want him, you need to buy him, (an expensive character), to replace a guy in a flash git mob, (an expensive HS choice), and he only comes with a 3+ save and an Assault 3 gets hot weapon. He has an approximate 16% chance of wounding himself with each shot...and he fires 3 per turn...wonderful:rolleyes:

nathonicus
14-02-2008, 23:47
Hah, I've got you beat, the Kroot-Ox :evilgrin: (though I personally love them :()

And worse then that IMO is the ever awesome Ethereal.

Wow....same planet, different worlds. For me Kroot are a "don't leave home without them" choice.

Now Kroot Shapers, on the other hand... spending 3 kroot for r a guy who gives you the option to buy a 6+ save for everyone else... Could never see may way to even thinking about this guy... which is a shame, as I'd love to model one (or three. Like I said, don't leave home without Kroot!)

I mainly play Tau, and that's the only guy I would never, ever take.

From IG...sanctioned psykers. I take'em all the time, and they're just worthless...

northoceanbeach
14-02-2008, 23:54
How about honorifica imperialis. Have you EVER, ever heard of anyone taking this?

Frep
14-02-2008, 23:56
What about with honorifica and a force weapon? On paper it seems like an intriguing idea to me, but maybe its not so good on the table top.

Phunting
14-02-2008, 23:58
Worst piece of kit? Lasguns.

...but I love them anyway!

Admiral Koppenflak
15-02-2008, 00:01
How about honorifica imperialis. Have you EVER, ever heard of anyone taking this?

Are you serious? I can't think of a single Tourney Guard Army that doesnt have one of these. Honorifica Imperialis and a Junior Officer is 5 points cheaper than an HSO. I fail to see why this is a "useless" piece of kit....

Kulgur
15-02-2008, 00:01
He has an approximate 16% chance of wounding himself with each shot...and he fires 3 per turn...wonderful:rolleyes:

You wish it was 16%
17% 1st shot (wounded on a 1)
33% 2nd shot (wounded on a 1 or 2)
50% 3rd shot (wounded on a 1, 2 or 3)

nathonicus
15-02-2008, 00:02
Yup- on afore-mentioned psyker. It's the only way that taking a psyker is really worthwhile, but even then, it is a lot of points sunk into a model who still is going to be hth weenie against anything that force weapons would be useful against. I've run this 3 or 4 times, and generally decided it's better to spread out the points into more offensive ranged weapons or veteran sergeants with power weapons in storm trooper squads.

By the way, I agree that storm troopers are overpriced by the standards of the new codex, but my current IG army uses 3 squads of 8 to support my tanks and infantry platoon. That 4+ save and a veteran sarge with a power weapon can really, really be helpful to slow down an attack that would go right through a standard infantry squad. Mine have actually allways worked pretty well, and they survive longer than normal guardsmen when the plasma guns overheat. :D

Mike KK
15-02-2008, 00:03
hard-wired blacksun filter on fire warrior shas'ui...woot one guy gets to dble his night fight role with a normal gun

northoceanbeach
15-02-2008, 00:29
hmm, i didn't notice that, i thought it was to give a second character better stats.

Gensuke626
15-02-2008, 00:29
You wish it was 16%
17% 1st shot (wounded on a 1)
33% 2nd shot (wounded on a 1 or 2)
50% 3rd shot (wounded on a 1, 2 or 3)

right, so 3 shots at 50% chance to wound, and a 33% chance to fail the save? about 16% isn't it? Potential to suffer 3 wounds a turn from his own shooting...

sure it gets better with a Painboy...but still...that's ignoreing incoming fire...

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 00:43
How about honorifica imperialis. Have you EVER, ever heard of anyone taking this?

Yeah, uh. Not really sure what you're talking about here. You can get two HSOs or just one for five points less. If you start doing tourney lists and getting down to brass tacks those five points are one bit in an army where every little bit helps.

vipernyc
15-02-2008, 00:50
For chaos, I'd have to say spawn. I know they have their fans, but for me its just ot worth it.

For orks... its tough, because I can see uses for almost anything. I guess I would say either flash gitz for being lackluster next to the other HS choices, or MANZ, but only because they should have an invulnerable save like termies.

Bunnahabhain
15-02-2008, 01:03
Searchlight on a basalisk.

A device to allow me to fire better directly, at close range, on a fragile, Long range IDF weapon...

Although it's not as bad as some of these examples, as it only costs points, it doesn't actually make the unit worse, or threatern to kill it...

Dirty Fingers
15-02-2008, 01:10
this was a very easy question for me back when we were stuck with the old ork codex....

Shield of Freedom
15-02-2008, 01:11
I got one better than Kroot. Sister Repentia ;)

You're insane, they are one of the best units in the codex. Aside from the Monolith due it's "living metal" rule, there is not a unit in the game they can't kill. Even T8 Wraithlords and T7 Carnifex have be careful not to engage!
Take a closer look at them. They're pretty fast, a 4+ save helps against most shooting and if they fail a Ld check they surge closer still. Look again, you may be suprised as to why you haven't taken them.



Worst kit? The Imperial Guard Doctrine "Cyber Enhancements" for 20pts per squad (whether it's a 10 man infantry squad or a 5 man command squad) you get to give your T3 Sv5+ Guardsmen a 6+ save... whoopdi-*******-do...

Or the Doctrine "Warrior Weapons." Everyone else in the game gets to exchange their standard firearm for a closecombat weapon and pistol of similar type for free (ie bolter to bolt pistol, shoota to slugga, and lasgun to laspistol). However to do this with your guard army it costs 2 points a model? WTF. So to give my Guardsmen laspistols and closecombat weapons with no stat changes, I have spend the same points per model as my BS4, Ld8, 3 Special weapon carrying Hardended Veterans?!?! Oh yeah, and give up on all kinds of unit entries in my codex since I can only take 5 doctrines.



Worst unit? Grey Knights in power armor. The shrowding barely gives you any extra protection. Yes they have good offensive power but they can be killed just as easily as "normal" marines by the same types of weapons.... for more than twice the cost per model.

cailus
15-02-2008, 01:25
Orks:

Grots - they suck even as tarpit due to Ld7 with a re-roll that kills D3 of them. The cost of 30 Grots + compulsory 3 runtherds is 120 points, for which I can get 20 Orks who are Fearless above 12 models and have a range 18 S4 Assault 2 gun as opposed to a BS3 S3 Assault 1 range 12 gun.

Grots do get better under 5th as they might give your boyz a 4+ cover save.


Nob squad leader Eavy Armour upgrade. 4+ save on model. Even under 5th edition this doesn't do much as you will generally have to score 10+ wounds to get hits allocated to him.

Flash Gitz - Ridiculously expensive, pathetic leadership of 7 (it's 10 at the start if you take 10 models but you only take morale checks after you've suffered 25% or 3 casualties which drops you to 7), average shooting (S5 Range 24 Assault 1 on a BS2 model).

Vaktathi
15-02-2008, 01:43
You're insane, they are one of the best units in the codex. Aside from the Monolith due it's "living metal" rule, there is not a unit in the game they can't kill. Even T8 Wraithlords and T7 Carnifex have be careful not to engage!
Take a closer look at them. They're pretty fast, a 4+ save helps against most shooting and if they fail a Ld check they surge closer still. Look again, you may be suprised as to why you haven't taken them. They are 20pt T3 models that strike at I1 with only 2 attacks on a charge. Yeah they are nasty if they actually get in with something, but they are slow (they can freak out but it may not be towards what you want, and they can't be put in transports), easy to shoot to death, and strike last in CC, and not hard to kill in CC either. I've never seen any Sister's player take them. They are also uncontrollable 1/3rd of the time.



How about honorifica imperialis. Have you EVER, ever heard of anyone taking this? Have you ever played against an IG army? They represent a huge benefit to most guard armies. Hell, some armies don't have anything but Junior officers, one with an Honorifica (for 5pts less than the HSO)

snooggums
15-02-2008, 01:50
Worst kit? The Imperial Guard Doctrine "Cyber Enhancements" for 20pts per squad (whether it's a 10 man infantry squad or a 5 man command squad) you get to give your T3 Sv5+ Guardsmen a 6+ save... whoopdi-*******-do...

Or the Doctrine "Warrior Weapons." Everyone else in the game gets to exchange their standard firearm for a closecombat weapon and pistol of similar type for free (ie bolter to bolt pistol, shoota to slugga, and lasgun to laspistol). However to do this with your guard army it costs 2 points a model? WTF. So to give my Guardsmen laspistols and closecombat weapons with no stat changes, I have spend the same points per model as my BS4, Ld8, 3 Special weapon carrying Hardended Veterans?!?! Oh yeah, and give up on all kinds of unit entries in my codex since I can only take 5 doctrines.



Oh, you beat me to it. Combined together those are the biggest waste of points ever. 40% increase to make your troops worth less than they started, and I think they get 2 CCW, not a laspistol and CCW so they cannot even shoot. Ever.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 02:07
You're insane, they are one of the best units in the codex. Aside from the Monolith due it's "living metal" rule, there is not a unit in the game they can't kill. Even T8 Wraithlords and T7 Carnifex have be careful not to engage!

I like them too; they have a 4+ save (because that cloth they're wearing is very protective, in addition to revealing ;)), which is decent, and come standard-armed with powerfists. I would like to find a way to field them myself (Apocalypse only), but just wish they had meatshields or something. Each model lost is bloody expensive, and I can see where Vaktathi is coming from spelling out their disadvantages. Though I see their use, as well.

I think Spawn still have them beat, but I'm somewhat biased, as Spawn went from a 3+ :eek: to nothing- straight up nothing- as far as saves go. They're just bursting with Chaotic energy and mutation; at the least they deserve a 5+ invuln. Then they might- might- be worth their points.


Oh, you beat me to it. Combined together those are the biggest waste of points ever. 40% increase to make your troops worth less than they started, and I think they get 2 CCW, not a laspistol and CCW so they cannot even shoot. Ever.

You can choose laspistol/CCW or two CCWs. I think it can be mixed. I guess if someone wanted a bunch of knights with dual weapons or something, maybe transfer a Fantasy army to 40k, they would use Carapace and Warrior Weapons. Definitely not for competetive use, though.

Gerrok
15-02-2008, 02:08
Daemonhosts - they're an assault unit that bounces off of armor saves. When they lose a combat they're almost guaranteed to be outnumbered, which means taking more wounds. Plus they get one shotted by power fist users, which is 70% of the armies you play.

Soul seeker ammunition - Rerolling a to hit with a splinter pistol (or rifle) isn't exciting. Neither is negating a cover save with said weapon. Especially when it costs as much as a plasma pistol to get.

Poisoned blades - The increased chance to wound doesn't outweight the agonizers ability to negate armor. Ever. And the no additional ccw thing sucks.

catbarf
15-02-2008, 02:37
What's hilarious about Cyber-Enhancement is that it makes your troops WORSE in all situations. Even assuming that the enemy weapon ignores your save and you have no cover, 12 normal men are harder to kill than 10 with a 6+ save.

Mitheral
15-02-2008, 03:10
If we include useless units is the discussion:

Necron Pariahs. They look good on paper. But they are expensive and largely ineffective.

True that. Worst piece of kit must be disruption fields on warriors. Why the heck would I spend 2 pts per to attack tanks once in CC rather than rapid fire them twice?

intellectawe
15-02-2008, 03:13
Scourges, jump packs troopers from DE

160 points for either...

8 bolter shots from 5 toughness 3 5+ save models

or

4 Dark Lance shots, which are heavy, on jump pack troopers. Can you say never fire?

For 40 points more, you can field 20 models with the same stats, and 4 of either weapon anyway.

160 points for 5 models .... 200 for 20?

Take your pick.

Son of Morkai
15-02-2008, 03:34
Daemonhunter's needle pistol. Five times the cost of a bolt pistol, with almost no armor penetration and the same chance to wound (or worse) against most targets. It doesn't even have a cool looking model to make up for it.

==Me==
15-02-2008, 04:02
DAs:
-Power Armored Librarians. 2W Ld9 no inv save and force barrier only saves once. I'll stick to ==My== Termie Librarian instead :p
-Command Squad. Not useless, just too small.
-Techmarine. Great model, great in theory, but too expensive for a glorified Vet Sgt and 4+ Sv heavy weapons, and not too good at fixing things. I miss ==My== IC Techy.
-Land Raider. Just not worth the points.

Orks
-Flash Gitz. Insta-killable, super expensive, short range, Heavy Support.
-Grotz. No, just no.

Ymir
15-02-2008, 04:04
Chaos Chosen with twin-linked bolters or combi-weapons must be a completely worthless option. I guess it could be ok if you really wanted cheap Infiltrators, but an -ordinary- meltagun costs just as much as a combi-melta does. So why, why, -why- waste special weapon slots on a combi-melta? And I would never field Chaos Chosen with a single lightning claw if it weren't for the fact that dual lightning claw bits for them are almost impossible to come by - for a -pair- of lightning claws has a -lower- points cost than a single one of them, and that little bolt pistol shouldn't really do much difference.

And does anyone ever take a havoc launcher on a rhino? That's 15 points on a vehicle that's pretty much a rolling coffin anyway; and would be much better served with extra armour for those points. I guess a combi-melta on a rhino could be a kinda good choice sometimes though; that could really make a difference if the rhino somehow happened to survive long enough to use it.

Or a havoc launcher on a land raider?

I guess it's kinda worth it on an autocannon/heavy bolters predator though.

Lascannons on a Defiler seems rather pointless also. Yeah! Let's make it an even -more- tempting target!


How about a dreadnought with two close combat weapons? I'm thinking it will almost never get into close combat to begin with, and even then, that single extra attack won't do half as much good as any ranged weapon choice would have done, really.

I'll have to agree though; Chaos Spawns are utter worthless. I would never ever use them. Except for Gift of Chaos, of course.

Xenobane
15-02-2008, 10:46
Com links or the vox casters as they are now known.

5pts a unit - they are only worth taking if your general has Ld 9/10 and has a master vox caster in his command sqd otherwise you are better off having a vet srg with the extra attack.


Well given that it's a pretty good idea for your general to have Ld 9 (it will never be 10 as the vox doesn't transmit the Commissar bonus), the vox network (inc. master vox) is pretty cost-effective in larger armies.

Obviously if you're only led by a JO they're rubbish, but that doesn't make them a bad piece of kit per se.

Gauss
15-02-2008, 11:35
I would say the Pariahs are pretty useless...

Emperor's Avenger
15-02-2008, 11:43
I've gone through the whole thread and no-one has mentioned Scout Bikers. Probably because they're so useless and irrelevant that everyone's forgotten about them. Thye have very few uses at all, and nothing that a normal Biker squad couldn't do better. And the models aren't very nice and have weapon options they can't actually have (although Scout Bikers can't actually have any weapon options). And they cost 18 for three, which is a lot anyway, but when you can only buy the squadron, if you want a five-man squad you have to buy two, resulting in you having an extra biker that you don't want.

Oh, and auspexes.

And Techpriest Enginseers. I played a game against one a couple of days ago. I'd like to tell you what it did but it didn't actually do anything except move a bit.

junglesnake
15-02-2008, 11:55
Well given that it's a pretty good idea for your general to have Ld 9 (it will never be 10 as the vox doesn't transmit the Commissar bonus), the vox network (inc. master vox) is pretty cost-effective in larger armies.

Obviously if you're only led by a JO they're rubbish, but that doesn't make them a bad piece of kit per se.

I disagree.

A master vox sets you back 25points and is only worth taking if you equip every unit with a vox caster to take advantage of this (or at least every basic infantry squad). By the time you have tallied it up it costs quite a bit in points.

The master vox I have no problem with - its having the option for a normal vox which basicaly allows one unit per turn to use an officers Ld. Therefore as I said you are better off when without a master vox to ditch them and upgrade every srgt to a vet srgt for a point more you get +1 Ld and attack every turn.

Xenobane
15-02-2008, 12:03
Therefore as I said you are better off when without a master vox to ditch them and upgrade every srgt to a vet srgt for a point more you get +1 Ld and attack every turn.


Ok, but you don't then get Ld 9 throughout your force, do you? Whether it's worth shelling out the points for this when you can get Ld 8 from Vet sgts for cheaper (plus the extra attack...woohoo) is debatable... but the only way of getting Ld 9 to all your guardsmen is "the worst piece of kit" just because it's arguably overcosted? No way.

The_Warsmith
15-02-2008, 12:05
As for spawn - it seems like people seem to be placing them out in the open a bit. I could argue that my catachans suck because in the open they basicaly get no save - but then I wouldn't put them in the open if I could help it!

the problem with spawn is that you can't help it, they run at the closest enemy unit so hiding them in cover is easier said than done

Supremearchmarshal
15-02-2008, 12:06
Space Marines:
-Techmarine (especially the redux version - the old one was at least an IC and could get your devastators a re-roll)
-Scout Bikers (their only use is to hope you get the first turn and melta-bomb something. These guys are supposed to be Scouts - not suicide bombers)
-Cyclone Missile Launcher
-Purity Seals
-redux Assault Squads
-redux Plasma Pistol
-the standard that gives you +1 combat resolution
-Command or Veteran Squad with terminator honours -worst points sink ever!

Eldar:
-not much useless stuff here, really. Most of the units aren't actually bad, but are rendered redundant by better equivalents.

DE:
-lots here, but I think Soulseeker Ammunition takes the cake - 10 points so your splinter pistol or rifle ignores cover and gets a re-roll to hit. Could anything be worse than that?
-units: Hellions and Scourges

IG:
-Psykers, Priests, Techpriests
-wargear: Power Fist, Purity Seals

CSM:
-Spawn and Possessed
-wargear: Plasma Pistol that costs the same as a Plasma Gun and more than a Meltagun. Bloodfeeder. Lascannon Sponsons on Predator. Mark of Khorne for Daemon Prince.

Necrons: Pariahs!

Orks:
-Nobz, Gretchin (under current rules), Flash Gitz, Looted Wagon
-wargear: Uge Choppa, Eavy Armour for Nobz. Mek upgrade for Lootaz.

Tyranids: Biovore

njfed
15-02-2008, 12:10
I would say the Pariahs are pretty useless...

Useless? No. Overpriced. Hell yeah!

Team up a squad of Pariahs and the Nightbringer and you got one scary mob running around. Well, that is about all you have running around since it is 720 points. Ouch.

For me it would be Oblitorators and the Deep Strike ability. Why on earth would you want three lascannons with a range of 48" sitting off the table for three turns?

The Highlander
15-02-2008, 12:14
Are you serious? I can't think of a single Tourney Guard Army that doesnt have one of these. Honorifica Imperialis and a Junior Officer is 5 points cheaper than an HSO. I fail to see why this is a "useless" piece of kit....

Forget that, put one on a JO in a platoon. Then you can deply one HSO at each end of you line and watch your gaurd be harder to brake than SM.

And as for PF, your going to be hitting last anyway so you might as well kill somthing. My HSO and RSM eat SM of breakfast.

The_Outsider
15-02-2008, 12:14
DE:
-lots here, but I think Soulseeker Ammunition takes the cake - 10 points so your splinter pistol or rifle ignores cover and gets a re-roll to hit. Could anything be worse than that?
-units: Hellions and Scourges


- The crucible of maledictum costing more than a haemonculous and actually gets worse the further away your target is.

- Animus vitae that is nearly impossible to use vs the sort of targets an archon/archite should be assaulting and it costs too much to go on squad leaders (not to mention it only affect the squad leader in that case).

- Hellglaive - its a splinter rifle and a +1 S CCW (two handed) on the charge and if you take it you must take a skyboard.

- Raider scaling nets - due to a raider's speed on the average board they make no sense and make the raider weaker.

- Terrorfex is nearly useless as it costs as much as a marine and is only remotely useful on raider sybarites - but those are much better off taking an agoniser for only 5 points more.

- Scourges costing too much and their weapon upgrades are double what everyone else pays for a unit thats no tougher.

- Scissorhand - disallows +1A for weapon in each hand and can only be taken on haemonculous.



Those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head.

Vaktathi
15-02-2008, 12:17
CSM:
-Spawn and Possessed
-wargear: Plasma Pistol that costs the same as a Plasma Gun and more than a Meltagun. Bloodfeeder. Lascannon Sponsons on Predator. Mark of Khorne for Daemon Prince.


Why is a MoK a waste for a DP? 6 S6 MC attacks at I5 on a charge with wings for 140pts isn't bad at all, and is 20pts cheaper than the cheapest Warptime Prince.

Supremearchmarshal
15-02-2008, 12:26
@The_Outsider Doesn't the Scissorhand count as 2 weapons (my memory is hazy, but isn't it sort of a better version of the Poisoned Blades?)


Why is a MoK a waste for a DP? 6 S6 MC attacks at I5 on a charge with wings for 140pts isn't bad at all, and is 20pts cheaper than the cheapest Warptime Prince.

Warptime is 15 points more expensive than MoK, but re-rolling to hit and to wound is much better than +1 A. Also the MoK prevents you from taking psychic powers, and gets no compensation in return.

So the MoK Prince is not bad by itself - like you say for 140 points it's still good, but all the other options are better.

Tonberry
15-02-2008, 13:05
Com links or the vox casters as they are now known.

5pts a unit - they are only worth taking if your general has Ld 9/10 and has a master vox caster in his command sqd otherwise you are better off having a vet srg with the extra attack.


Although these become potentially much more useful in the Renegade Guard list, with their d6+4 Leadership. Although they could potentially be completely useless if you roll a 1 for the command squad...

I'm going to go with Deepstriking under the current ruleset. The majority of Deepstrikers are assault troops who Deepstrike to get closer to the enemy to assault. But, Deepstrikers can't assault, and if they go too close they die :wtf:

srg.cutter
15-02-2008, 13:10
The terminator heavy flamer whats the point

Supremearchmarshal
15-02-2008, 13:27
I'm going to go with Deepstriking under the current ruleset. The majority of Deepstrikers are assault troops who Deepstrike to get closer to the enemy to assault. But, Deepstrikers can't assault, and if they go too close they die :wtf:

True, though if they have Jump Packs they can deep strike behind terrain and jump over it next turn.

The_Outsider
15-02-2008, 13:29
@The_Outsider Doesn't the Scissorhand count as 2 weapons (my memory is hazy, but isn't it sort of a better version of the Poisoned Blades?)


Possibly - now I think about it I may have confused it with the singlehanded version.

osickx
15-02-2008, 13:37
eldar storm guardians get my vote

Angelwing
15-02-2008, 13:41
necrons: pariahs and disruption fields on warriors. These got nerfed by the change to 4th ed.
tyranids: feeder tendrils on genestealers. very expensive for very little benefit.
battle sisters: repentia. Too expensive and very fragile.
grey knight shrouding ability. Almost useless as it requires well below average dice rolls to be any benefit on the usual table sizes.

Mercer
15-02-2008, 13:48
Scouts as elite in a blood angel army...whats going on there?

Mercer

Perfect Organism
15-02-2008, 15:05
I see a lot of people saying Scout Bikers, but I thik they are pretty brutal against anything which is weak in close combat and likes to hang back shooting. They are especially good against Tau, but most armies have some kind of support unit which is terribly vulnerable to being attacked by fast moving units in the early stages of the game.

Cuda
15-02-2008, 15:38
What do people see as the worst item / troop choice / upgrade in their codex?

What would you NEVER take, and why?

Over priced, nerfed, inaffective, generally lame, whatever the reason, whatever the army, lets hear about it. Even if it's just something that seems sound, but that somehow never quite works when YOU try it.

(and remember guys, no fighting over tactics. Stories from personal experience are cool, but this isn't a tactica thread).

Item; Dark Eldar - Nightmare Doll!!! Though it would be fun to model and would look cool.

Cuda...


I have a personal dislike for stormtroopers and or chimeras. I just think they are both rediculously overpriced. 10 points for a guy with a lasgun? No way. And 90 points for a chimera is just insane. Put them together and add 2 plasma and you've got a 200 point squad. For that cost you could get:

Eldrad
10 man tactical squad
20 Dark Eldar warriors with 4 lance weapons
a leman russ and 10 guard
a dakkafex and 5 genestealers
33 orks
...

Dark Eldar warriors only get 2 Lance Weapons!

Cuda...

kermit
15-02-2008, 15:49
Orbital strikes for GK and WH...

Yes, you are preventing your opponent from getting those points... but I have tried to use one to no effect... and it was a team tournament... I was running GKs and he was running WH... we both had one... and neither did anything...

Useless...

SonOFSanguinius
15-02-2008, 15:50
a single lighting claw
why not spend 4 more points for an extra attack

I dont play guard but never understood carapis armor
why not just buy more squads with heavy weapons.

Cuda
15-02-2008, 15:53
Daemonhosts - they're an assault unit that bounces off of armor saves. When they lose a combat they're almost guaranteed to be outnumbered, which means taking more wounds. Plus they get one shotted by power fist users, which is 70% of the armies you play.

Soul seeker ammunition - Rerolling a to hit with a splinter pistol (or rifle) isn't exciting. Neither is negating a cover save with said weapon. Especially when it costs as much as a plasma pistol to get.

Poisoned blades - The increased chance to wound doesn't outweight the agonizers ability to negate armor. Ever. And the no additional ccw thing sucks.

Soul Seeker Ammo does ignore cover saves and it doesn't cost more than a Plasma Pistol and you get to re-roll a missed hit. Not as bad as it seems, there are far worse tools in the Galaxy after all.

Cuda...


The terminator heavy flamer whats the point

My Iron Warrior Terminators use them in Bunker-BBQ's with great success!

Cuda...

Grazzy
15-02-2008, 16:37
I would never get most of the stuff in the daemonhunters armoury. It is huge and there is maybe 5 things worth taking.

LordFulgrim
15-02-2008, 17:12
Chaos Spawn; a friend of mine who plays Eldar is constantly whining how they would fit in so well with my EC and that they look cool. I really pray he's not serious and just hopes I'm stupid enough to take one.

And what's with the option of taking a single lightning claw?!:wtf:

njfed
15-02-2008, 17:15
And what's with the option of taking a single lightning claw?!:wtf:

Because Lightning Claws never strike twice?

Sorry, could not resist.

catbarf
15-02-2008, 17:22
Because Lightning Claws never strike twice?

Sorry, could not resist.

Oh dear.

I think that Vox networks, while perhaps not efficient, effective, or cheap, aren't truly terrible. I mean, they're not good, but they're not so spectacularly useless as to be the worst piece of kit in the game.

Stalin MkII
15-02-2008, 17:23
I think it needs to be said:

DE hellions, seriously the most pointless unit in existence.

They are jump pack troops with a splinter rifle (S3 AP5 Rapid fire)
they have a 5+ invu save but are only toughness 3
They also only get one special weapon
in combat they get wych drugs WS 4 S 3 (4 on the charge) and 1 attack normally
and they cost a mighty 19 points!!

so lets do mathhammer, 10 man tactical squad 150pts
8 hellions, 152pts

If the hellions try to shoot the SM they would kill 1.2 (rapid firing)
If the space marines shoot they kill 5.9 (rapid firing)

In combat on the charge they kill 1.333 (a slight improvement over shooting!)
the space marines in response kill 2 on average (assuming one dies to the charge)
hellions then lose combat and are outnumbered, great

I challenge anyone to find a unit thew would be worse that either shooting or combat to hellions point to point (so roughly equal point units)

A.S.modai
15-02-2008, 17:34
I think it needs to be said:

DE hellions, seriously the most pointless unit in existence.

They are jump pack troops with a splinter rifle (S3 AP5 Rapid fire)
they have a 5+ invu save but are only toughness 3
They also only get one special weapon
in combat they get wych drugs WS 4 S 3 (4 on the charge) and 1 attack normally
and they cost a mighty 19 points!!

so lets do mathhammer, 10 man tactical squad 150pts
8 hellions, 152pts

If the hellions try to shoot the SM they would kill 1.2 (rapid firing)
If the space marines shoot they kill 5.9 (rapid firing)

In combat on the charge they kill 1.333 (a slight improvement over shooting!)
the space marines in response kill 2 on average (assuming one dies to the charge)
hellions then lose combat and are outnumbered, great

I challenge anyone to find a unit thew would be worse that either shooting or combat to hellions point to point (so roughly equal point units)

I think the helions true purpose was to tie up shooty units until the bada$$es get there. They have "hit and run" iirc. A lot of the DE kit is pinning (horrorfex) and i think the dev's were trying to invent a lot of ways to stop the DE from getting shot to hell. Thats another 152 pt way. which sucks btw. Can't the have those hellglaives and tormentor helms too?

Stalin MkII
15-02-2008, 17:42
i don't have codex in front of me but i don't think so, (except a sarge) but seriously, a unit of 10 warriors in a raider are cheaper, have a DLance on the tank and better heavy weapons, and better at shooting and only slightly worse in combat (no +1 S on the charge, no drugs). finally are slightly faster.

Shadowphrakt
15-02-2008, 17:45
Or the Doctrine "Warrior Weapons." Everyone else in the game gets to exchange their standard firearm for a closecombat weapon and pistol of similar type for free (ie bolter to bolt pistol, shoota to slugga, and lasgun to laspistol). However to do this with your guard army it costs 2 points a model? WTF. So to give my Guardsmen laspistols and closecombat weapons with no stat changes, I have spend the same points per model as my BS4, Ld8, 3 Special weapon carrying Hardended Veterans?!?! Oh yeah, and give up on all kinds of unit entries in my codex since I can only take 5 doctrines.

What!?!?Dude, try kitting out a 50 man conscript platoon with warrior weapons, and then give them a priest or commissar. Think of the shed load of dice you can role!

ReveredChaplainDrake
15-02-2008, 17:56
@Stalin MKII: Necron Pariahs.

Tyranids: Most bug kits really aren't that good because they have to compete with their weight in bugs (which are quite good), which adds up after the upgrades are applied to whole broods of 15 and 20. Though among the more useless goodies, I'd say Without Number. It's a classic example of paying for a disadvantage.

Chaos Marines: Plasma Pistols. When you don't sacrifice your Bolt Pistol and CCW to get your special weapon anyway, taking a pistol that is more expensive and can explode in your face isn't as good of an idea when you can take a Meltagun, preserve your 2A in CC, and shoot Tanks better. The Pistol has the advantage of standing still, but when, at that range, would you ever stand still and rapid fire at anything?

Daemonhunters: Banishment. It's a completely, totally, 150% worthless Psychic Power. As are a lot of things in the DH codex that depends on Daemons following Instability rules, or even being good for that matter. Though this probably isn't fair. Of the non-daemon related stuff, I'd have to go with the Inquisitor's Familiar. Inquisitors (Corteaz excluded; str4 and no mandatory henchmen ftw!) simply don't belong in combat. Ever.

Black Templars: This one is hard. Templars' weakness isn't in their toys, but their actual men. I would probably have to go with Crusader Seals. I'm not a believer that Righteous Zeal is a good thing anyway, but when you absolutely need it, you get a much better effect by joining a Character to your unit, especially seeing as how all BT characters come with Crusader Seals for free. (And if you have a Chaplain with 3x Cenobytes, all the better!)

Son of Morkai
15-02-2008, 18:05
Orbital strikes for GK and WH...

Yes, you are preventing your opponent from getting those points... but I have tried to use one to no effect... and it was a team tournament... I was running GKs and he was running WH... we both had one... and neither did anything...

Useless...
If they didn't do anything, you're not using them right. They're wonderful terror and area denial weapons. Since your opponent doesn't know where they're targeting until they land, it can keep him out of cover. I think it's worth the 80 points to keep my opponent from taking cover saves from my Sisters' Guided bolters.

It'll never kill anything, but that's not it's point.

Supremearchmarshal
15-02-2008, 18:19
What!?!?Dude, try kitting out a 50 man conscript platoon with warrior weapons, and then give them a priest or commissar. Think of the shed load of dice you can role!

But don't they cost 50% more? I'd rather have more models - after all, their purpose is to tarpit, not actually win assaults.


Soul Seeker Ammo does ignore cover saves and it doesn't cost more than a Plasma Pistol and you get to re-roll a missed hit. Not as bad as it seems, there are far worse tools in the Galaxy after all.

What? 11 or 12 points for a S 3 AP 5 weapon that ignores cover saves, and gives you a re-roll to hit. Just... what's the point?

pssorens
15-02-2008, 18:28
I've got to say I love my assault termie's. Of course that may have something to do with being a BT player and getting LRC's as a dedicated transports. The one unit that I dislike and think useless are ravenwing bikes because I've never seen them used effectively

Shield of Freedom
15-02-2008, 18:34
What!?!?Dude, try kitting out a 50 man conscript platoon with warrior weapons, and then give them a priest or commissar. Think of the shed load of dice you can role!

For 50% more the cost with WS2 and S3, by the time you buy all those models and the commisar, you could kit out an Infantry platoon of 35 guardsmen that can actually shoot up pretty well any unit you would have assaulted with your conscript platoon.

No thanks.... I'd rather have 50 Guardsmen with lasguns and a BS3, WS3 than 50 Conscripts with Laspistols and Close-combat weapons and a BS2 WS2 any day... especially when they will cost the same amount of points.... I don't care if the Commisar means they won't break, it'll cost you one of your models each time he stops them, and after a few rounds of assault against a dedicated assault unit, you won't have many left.

catbarf
15-02-2008, 18:36
What!?!?Dude, try kitting out a 50 man conscript platoon with warrior weapons, and then give them a priest or commissar. Think of the shed load of dice you can role!

You can't, IIRC. I'm fairly certain Special Equipment does not apply to Conscripts.

Oh, and the Renegade list lets you do this.

The_Outsider
15-02-2008, 18:46
Soul Seeker Ammo does ignore cover saves and it doesn't cost more than a Plasma Pistol and you get to re-roll a missed hit. Not as bad as it seems, there are far worse tools in the Galaxy after all.


Its not that soulseeker is crap within itself, its more that the only guys that get access to it can only have a splinter rifle or pistol - on neither is SSA worth it.

Now if you could buy a splinter cannon from the armoury it would be a different matter.............

Meriwether
15-02-2008, 19:09
- The crucible of maledictum costing more than a haemonculous and actually gets worse the further away your target is.

Gah, you beat me to it.


- - Terrorfex is nearly useless as it costs as much as a marine and is only remotely useful on raider sybarites - but those are much better off taking an agoniser for only 5 points more.

Oooh, I love 'em, and use them to brutal effectiveness.


- - Scourges costing too much and their weapon upgrades are double what everyone else pays for a unit thats no tougher.

Scourges are neat in concept and just bad, bad, bad, bad, BAD. They still make hellions look good, though. Hellions just plain suck.


- - Scissorhand - disallows +1A for weapon in each hand and can only be taken on haemonculous.

The scissorhand _counts as_ two weapons, and not a two-handed weapon, so you get the +1A...


eldar storm guardians get my vote

NoooOOOooOOoOOooooo! Storm guardians are probably my second-favorite eldar unit. They're really, really great horde-killers when kitted with two flamers, a warlock with destructor, and a waveserpent. Fun to use, too!


Its not that soulseeker is crap within itself, its more that the only guys that get access to it can only have a splinter rifle or pistol - on neither is SSA worth it.

LOL. So it only sucks because of its rules? I agree. :D

On to my own contributions:

Orks: Taking Snikrot so that you can spend 5 points each to upgrade grotz to cybergrotz might be the worst choice in the game -- worse even than spawn.

Eldar: The wraithsword on wraithlords. (This might change if the 5th ed. rule about +1A per round of combat comes true, but for now it's crapola).

Chaos: Spawn. :( I love 'em and own ten, and have found some use for them, but you can do better with your points almost anywhere else in the army list. Lesser Demons are a close second.

Dark Eldar: Chaos Hounds hit, bounce, and die against MEQs, and don't do much better versus GEQs. (They aren't as bad as Scourges for the points, and *nothing in the list* is as bad as Hellions).

Meri

rambler
15-02-2008, 19:40
How about honorifica imperialis. Have you EVER, ever heard of anyone taking this?

I take it on my psyker & give him a force weapon. :skull:

But I've got to add a vote for the techpriest as the worst piece of kit. They need to switch the servitors to a retinue instead of wargear.

boogaloo
15-02-2008, 19:50
how about stuff that's tactically viable but just never works when you try it yourself?

(also, when posting please explain why you hate stuff, so people who don't know your codex will get why you think it is no good).

FIRE DRAGONS!... literally, played twelve games with em... casualty count of 0... unless you're counting the dragons... in which case the casualty count is 60.

for those who are not mathematicaly inclined that's twelve games where they all died and killed nothing.

P.S. i've only used them in 12 games.... what a sad sad history

MegaPope
15-02-2008, 20:04
DE - Hellions: the only unit I've ever seen consistently beaten in CC...by Guardsmen.

IG - (In addition to the usual suspects) Guardsmen - there's nothing intrinsically bad about them, except they cost one more point than they should.
Now apply that to a whole army of them...and then factor in their near-essentials: spec/heavy weapons, voxes etc.
It builds up. Fast

And...

Doctrines: a great idea badly executed.

I'll have to defend carapace armour though. Overpriced it might be, but it increases the grunt's prospective saves from 'nothing' to '50% chance' against (among other things) the following:

Boltguns, Splinter Rifles, Hellguns, Pulse weaponry, Gauss Flayers (most of the time...), Shuriken Catapults, Kroot Rifles, Burst Cannons, SMS, Frag Missiles, Big Shootas, Flamers, Typhoon Missiles.

I've yet to see a Marine or Tau player who doesn't get a little steamed up at seeing their prized small arms bouncing off Guardsmen in the open.

Draconian77
15-02-2008, 20:07
Extende Carapace on Gaunt squads.

That bugs(Puns_R-Fun) me.

20 Gaunts with a 6+ save for 100pts.
16 Gaunts with a 5+ save for 96pts.

L192837465
15-02-2008, 20:56
For 50% more the cost with WS2 and S3, by the time you buy all those models and the commisar, you could kit out an Infantry platoon of 35 guardsmen that can actually shoot up pretty well any unit you would have assaulted with your conscript platoon.

No thanks.... I'd rather have 50 Guardsmen with lasguns and a BS3, WS3 than 50 Conscripts with Laspistols and Close-combat weapons and a BS2 WS2 any day... especially when they will cost the same amount of points.... I don't care if the Commisar means they won't break, it'll cost you one of your models each time he stops them, and after a few rounds of assault against a dedicated assault unit, you won't have many left.

you're silly. a dedicated cc unit is what... assault marines? we'll go with that.

30 attacks, 20 hit, 12 wound, save 2, 10 guys die.

80 attacks back, 40 hit, 20 wound, you wipe out the cc squad.

oh yeah, thats pretty terrible....

unbreakable too.

who here would disagree that conscripts are THE BEST cc unit in the game? i wouldn't.

Harold Zoid
15-02-2008, 21:01
sarissa
re-roll to wound rolls when charging. Only usable with a bolter, doesnt count as additional ccw.
5 points of pure uselessness :)

Matt_stanley75
15-02-2008, 21:34
Special Weapons Sniper squadsfor IG. Lessee, they cost 65 points, IIRC. 3 sniper shots. But 6 ratlings cost 66 points, get +1 cover save, and can pin themselves instead of breaking, and get me 6 sniper shots...

Captain Micha
15-02-2008, 21:39
you're silly. a dedicated cc unit is what... assault marines? we'll go with that.

30 attacks, 20 hit, 12 wound, save 2, 10 guys die.

80 attacks back, 40 hit, 20 wound, you wipe out the cc squad.

oh yeah, thats pretty terrible....

unbreakable too.

who here would disagree that conscripts are THE BEST cc unit in the game? i wouldn't.

You forgot assault marines have a 3+ armor save. so most of those wounded would save from it.

Also, conscripts aren't made to actually win anything on their own. They are just bullet catchers, and knife stoppers for your -real- forces.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-02-2008, 22:22
The terminator heavy flamer whats the point

What's not the point? Deepstrike Tzeentch Termies in, flame on along with some combi-bolter shots. They try to kill you by shooting next phase, but Invulns are good and if you Deep Strike them in the right spot, the enemy can't get to you with enough firepower to really wipe them out. If they assault you, they're stuck in a tarpit for a while (as long as you didn't do something stupid like Deepstrike them next to Howling Banshees or something). It's a cheap weapon that does okay against everything and slaughters horde armies.

That's the point.


Chaos Spawn; a friend of mine who plays Eldar is constantly whining how they would fit in so well with my EC and that they look cool. I really pray he's not serious and just hopes I'm stupid enough to take one.

Don't fall to that tricksy Eldar scum's mind games, friend. Spawn= epic fail.


And what's with the option of taking a single lightning claw?!:wtf:

Honestly? There isn't.


Because Lightning Claws never strike twice?

Sorry, could not resist.

/facepalm


What!?!?Dude, try kitting out a 50 man conscript platoon with warrior weapons, and then give them a priest or commissar. Think of the shed load of dice you can role!

Can't get a priest. Commisar's the only useful bit. Points are better spent elsewhere.

Supremearchmarshal
15-02-2008, 22:28
Another one: Armoured Crew Compartment for Sentinels. Good idea, but 15 points???

Captain Micha
15-02-2008, 22:29
Mine, Heavy Destroyers. one I -hate- that damn metal cannon which refuses to stay in position, or attached for that matter. Two, for me at least more often than not have proven a points sink.

The Guy
15-02-2008, 23:05
Culexus assassin. Seriously how likely are you to play against even ONE psyker?

The_Outsider
15-02-2008, 23:40
Culexus assassin. Seriously how likely are you to play against even ONE psyker?

I dunno, ask the tyranid army thats held together with psykers.

blackroyal
16-02-2008, 00:14
Tyranid:

Spore Cysts. Yay, I might wound a T6/7 creature 1/6th of the time, and I now get to put a drifting spore mine in base contact with my carnifex.

Awesome.

Any "upgrade" on Guants or rippers.

carldooley
16-02-2008, 00:15
when playing GKs, I prefer incinerators over psycannons for the simple fact that they are the only weapon that nerfs the other guy, i mean that it's targets get NO cover save, NO invulnerable save, and no saves to anyone without a 2 or 3+ armor save.

as to the thread, the extended carapace is wasted on hive tyrants, as the Warp Field is much more economical (and you can 'wing' it).

The Guy
16-02-2008, 00:16
I dunno, ask the tyranid army thats held together with psykers.

Lol except them :p

Shipmonkey
16-02-2008, 03:38
a single lighting claw
why not spend 4 more points for an extra attack



Why take two claws? The only benefit is the extra CC attack. Why not just take one claw and a storm bolter? Then you get 2 ranged attacks as you run into CC, and still get the Lighting Claws benefits in CC.

Triggerdog
16-02-2008, 03:52
Why take two claws? The only benefit is the extra CC attack. Why not just take one claw and a storm bolter? Then you get 2 ranged attacks as you run into CC, and still get the Lighting Claws benefits in CC.

because its the same cost either way. Personally I'd rather have one extra attack that ignores armor saves and rerolls wounds than two shots that dont do either.

I'd say the most useless piece of wargear is Krak grenades on independant characters. Theres no real point because you can take a melta bomb for just a few more points and they're much more effective than krak grenades.

Codsticker
16-02-2008, 04:04
Powerfists for imperial Guard Officers.

Triggerdog
16-02-2008, 04:36
Powerfists for imperial Guard Officers.

I disagree. Those power fists come in handy because you can actually wound things in close combat without need a miracle. That and they look cool so why not take them?

catbarf
16-02-2008, 04:51
I disagree. Those power fists come in handy because you can actually wound things in close combat without need a miracle. That and they look cool so why not take them?

Because, like all T3-4 independent characters, the officer is going to get splattered before he can attack. For Vet Sergeants or Commissars it's good, for Officers it's rubbish.

LoneSniperSG
16-02-2008, 04:55
Assault Marines in a Space Wolf force. Premium cost with Guardsman/scout stats. Even the overpriced Terminators are better value.

Even they have their uses. My vote goes for.... the Wolf Iron Priest.. I have never heard of any one taking one and him surviving.

Shield of Freedom
16-02-2008, 05:08
FIRE DRAGONS!... literally, played twelve games with em... casualty count of 0... unless you're counting the dragons... in which case the casualty count is 60.

for those who are not mathematicaly inclined that's twelve games where they all died and killed nothing.

P.S. i've only used them in 12 games.... what a sad sad history

Wow.... then you're not using them right.

I ALWAYS take Fire Dragons. Now that their guns are S8 again, absolutely. They are always the reason that my opponents most expensive or most dangerous unit dies before doing too much damage. Yes, sometimes I sacrifice them by deploying them out of a transport to one-shot that threat, but it's usually worth it.

They MUST have a transport, 6 in a Falcon or more than 6 in a Wave Serpent. The reason yours probably die easily is also because your opponents know too well how dangerous they are and don't let them live long.

Triggerdog
16-02-2008, 05:23
Because, like all T3-4 independent characters, the officer is going to get splattered before he can attack. For Vet Sergeants or Commissars it's good, for Officers it's rubbish.

but theres always the chance that he'll live in which case I'd like to be able to hit back and have it do something. Guard will generally be going second in an assault anyway. and hey, if you really want you could just give them a power fist and a power weapon. That way they would look *******' sweet and be somewhat effective.

Desert thunder
16-02-2008, 06:31
chimera they suck in every way possible even as cannon fodder they dont have enough armour to keep the enemy distracted long enough.

feelnopain666
16-02-2008, 08:05
Plasma pistol on the new dex:"Space marines with spikes". Why pay 15 pts for one of them when we can have a Melta gun (and cheaper)?

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-02-2008, 08:32
Why take two claws? The only benefit is the extra CC attack. Why not just take one claw and a storm bolter? Then you get 2 ranged attacks as you run into CC, and still get the Lighting Claws benefits in CC.

But for the points, the second Lightning Claw is more effective and looks cooler. I mean, seriously, you can't just take one.


I disagree. Those power fists come in handy because you can actually wound things in close combat without need a miracle. That and they look cool so why not take them?

Because, as stated above, that officer will get curbstomped due to his IC status. That nerf bugs me; there's got to be a compromise between "ungodly good in CC" and "useless" where PF officers can land. As is powerfists are only really useful when they can be hidden; otherwise the enemy's powerfists/force weapons/character killers will slaughter them.


but theres always the chance that he'll live in which case I'd like to be able to hit back and have it do something. Guard will generally be going second in an assault anyway. and hey, if you really want you could just give them a power fist and a power weapon. That way they would look *******' sweet and be somewhat effective.

There's a chance, but it's not a good enough one to warrant a powerfist, much less a powerfist and a power weapon.

fwacho
16-02-2008, 08:56
my Ig opponent regularly fields his officers with powerfists. Those guys score more kills... anoterh Ig guy runs a priest and tooled out CC comand squad. Once again another squad that gives my raven wing issues.

Honestly.. I've had terrible luck with harliquins. Mine are cowards and have yet to pass a leadership test..

On the otehr side my grots are feared by my opponents. They know they'll have to kill every last one becasue they won't run away. With the new codex out my grots have even gotten dangerous while shooting and bagged them selves a combat squad already.

I've come to teh conclusion that my Tau railhead is useless. The tank hits once a game and is largely nothign more than bullet magnet.

Some mentioned erlier the uselssness of honorifica imperialis. I use it on a vet srg of a vet squad to good effect.

Grazzy
16-02-2008, 13:29
Who said fire dragons were rubbish? You're barking mad! Mounted they can destroy any tank in the game as well as any character or small, well armoured unit.

Supremearchmarshal
16-02-2008, 13:55
Because, like all T3-4 independent characters, the officer is going to get splattered before he can attack. For Vet Sergeants or Commissars it's good, for Officers it's rubbish.

Sergeants can't take it - this makes the Commissar the only viable choice.

Meriwether
16-02-2008, 14:33
I've come to teh conclusion that my Tau railhead is useless. The tank hits once a game and is largely nothign more than bullet magnet.

...if it's an effective bullet magnet that draws fire away from the rest of your army, then it is far from useless!

Meri

Onlyhestands
16-02-2008, 14:59
Sergeants can't take it - this makes the Commissar the only viable choice.

Veteran Seargeants in a Hardened Veterans squad can take a officer only weapons, including powerfists. I'd assume(I dont do this) that this is actually pretty good as the squad can take 3 meltas, and the Veteran sarge gets a bunch of ablative wounds, so a large enough squad can do some damage with their accurate shooting then charging and letting the Veteran Seargent kill off whats left. Still, I'd prefer rough riders for the same cost as a Hardened Veterans squad. Either one of them are really just a suicide unit and the rough riders are faster, and about the same cost.

MrPickles
16-02-2008, 15:07
Assault Marines in a Space Wolf force. Premium cost with Guardsman/scout stats. Even the overpriced Terminators are better value.

Space wolf Terminators are some of the best IMO. How many other terminators do you know that can reroll a failed armor saves? How many other terminators do you know that can have both loads of combi-plasma and assault cannons in the same squad?

Thud
16-02-2008, 15:11
Space wolf Terminators are some of the best IMO. How many other terminators do you know that can reroll a failed armor saves? How many other terminators do you know that can have both loads of combi-plasma and assault cannons in the same squad?

And how many Terminators do you know that cost more than Razorbacks? :p

Son of Morkai
16-02-2008, 19:09
And how many Terminators do you know that cost more than Razorbacks? :p
Every single one in my army! :D Remember the pre-faq days? When SW Terminators could have master-crafted assault cannons? Hmm... the current FAQ doesn't state that... did they put that into later printings of the codex or is it legal now...?

Gearhead
16-02-2008, 19:55
I play Tau; and I have never taken Failsafe Detonators, Ejection Systems, blacksun filters or Multitrackers on infantry. I haven' used our special characters, Skyrays, or vespid due to not owning the models(that's the excuse I use).

EDIT:Forgot about Adv. Stablization on Crisis teams.

scarletsquig
16-02-2008, 23:18
Shadow weaver.
Scourges.
Scout bikes

Also,if you think sisters repentia are bad, try taking some arco-flagellents... even worse.
Penitent engines are bad too... in fact that whole section of "hey lets make lots of expensive, fragile, short-ranged units that the player can't control the movement of!" section of the witch hunter book is one of the worst pieces of game design in 40k at the moment.

Creepy Basement Studios
17-02-2008, 04:09
you're silly. a dedicated CC unit is what... assault marines? we'll go with that.

30 attacks, 20 hit, 12 wound, save 2, 10 guys die.

80 attacks back, 40 hit, 20 wound, you wipe out the CC squad.

oh yeah, thats pretty terrible....

unbreakable too.

who here would disagree that conscripts are THE BEST cc unit in the game? i wouldn't.

Totally wrong!

More like 80 attacks, 40 hits, 13 wounds (they are S3 remember?!), 4 failed saves (if that!).

It is pretty terrible, for 350 points plus a Doctrine (Indy Commy), yes it is. Especially when you think of what you could be getting for those 350 points.

I like my Vox system as well, I use Chem Inhalers so my whole army is an unmodified Ld of 9!


chimera they suck in every way possible even as cannon fodder they dont have enough armour to keep the enemy distracted long enough.
WHAT?!!! AV 12 is pretty nice IMHO. For 90 points you get two heavy weapons, AV12 and transport capacity...what's not to like?They are the same points as two Multi Laser Sentinels, with much better armor. BTW who runs tanks for "cannon fodder"??

Tech Priest- I run one with two tech servitors and leave him right behind my demolisher. He fixes at the start of turn (on a 4+ or 3+ with 3 Servs) and for 65 pts. its golden to bring back that turrent weapon your enemy just blew off last turn! Plus he has power armor, a PW, AND a PF! A steal I say.

I run a Mecahnized army and have 10 of them out there, along with two LRBTs and they score big against Nids and Orks!


The Tau wargear list is full of head-scratchers.

Eldar- Swooping Hawks, Banshees (yes I said it! S3 PWs area a freaking TEASE!), Harlequins= 22 pts for T3 guys with a 5+ save and hoping to roll 6s when finally useful? No thanks! One Speeder with a heavy flamer will spell disaster for the Space Clowns.

Chaos- the Slaanesh demon weapon, why not take a Force Weapon and not sufer the "roll a 1" wounds?

I can't believe somebody put Fire Dragons on here (sounds like crappy dice/tactics to me!).

Vaktathi
17-02-2008, 04:33
WHAT?!!! AV 12 is pretty nice IMHO. For 90 points you get two heavy weapons, AV12 and transport capacity...what's not to like?They are the same points as two Multi Laser Sentinels, with much better armor. BTW who runs tanks for "cannon fodder"??


It's got AV10 on the side, costs as much as a fully decked out (and just as well armed if shorter ranged) Devilfish that gets SMF and has better side armor (while ignoring terrain and being neigh impossible to hurt with CC attacks) without any upgrades but weapons and a dozerblade, and carries troops that hit like a wet noodle when rapid firing after disembark.

Carlos
17-02-2008, 11:05
Fire Dragons? FIRE DRAGONS!? In the past few years my Fire Dragons have been my favourite aspect warrior, to the point of using them alongside my Avengers as normal units. My 10-strong squad has killed everything, from a squad of tzeentchian sorcerer champions worth about 1500pts (in the old dex) to various tanks, heavy infantry, several baneblades and my personal favourite: A warhound titan.

I was clever enough to get to shoot and charge in the same turn. 10x Fusion Guns + 10x Melta Bombs = dead anything. Im aiming to take down a warlord next.

With the new codex I cant really say anything in the new codex is useless, although I still have yet to find out what is so great about falcons: Overcosted, crap BS, not enough space for transport and never hits anything. Serpents have twin-linked and the energy field is better than holofields, and prisms are cheaper and better at destroying pretty much anything.

Thorny
17-02-2008, 11:49
Gotta be ork kannons 30pts for a rokkitlauncher which can be taken out just as easily as a normal boy.

Supremearchmarshal
17-02-2008, 12:42
Eldar- Swooping Hawks, Banshees (yes I said it! S3 PWs area a freaking TEASE!), Harlequins= 22 pts for T3 guys with a 5+ save and hoping to roll 6s when finally useful? No thanks! One Speeder with a heavy flamer will spell disaster for the Space Clowns.

The Banshees are only bad because of the overabundance of MEQs who all have T 4. If the average profile was closer to IG, Tau or Eldar they'd be much better.


Chaos- the Slaanesh demon weapon, why not take a Force Weapon and not sufer the "roll a 1" wounds?

Because a Lord can't use a Force Weapon, and Force weapon doesn't give +D6 attacks?


It's got AV10 on the side, costs as much as a fully decked out (and just as well armed if shorter ranged) Devilfish that gets SMF and has better side armor (while ignoring terrain and being neigh impossible to hurt with CC attacks) without any upgrades but weapons and a dozerblade, and carries troops that hit like a wet noodle when rapid firing after disembark.

The designers stated that a unit's cost is based on it's abilities relative to the average for its army, so (in theory) IG pay premium for close combat abilities, Orks for shooting, DE for armour etc.
Personally, I think most vehicles are crappy because of the general vehicle rules, not their specifics.


With the new codex I cant really say anything in the new codex is useless, although I still have yet to find out what is so great about falcons: Overcosted, crap BS, not enough space for transport and never hits anything. Serpents have twin-linked and the energy field is better than holofields, and prisms are cheaper and better at destroying pretty much anything.

They're almost indestructible and are a scoring unit. If you need to hold an objective = instant win. They also make it almost certain your Harlequins or Aspect Warriors will make it into combat.

Thud
17-02-2008, 15:12
Gotta be ork kannons 30pts for a rokkitlauncher which can be taken out just as easily as a normal boy.

Except that they are 20 points, have better BS, longer range, option to go for blast, and last but not least; you can't shoot at two units, so whoever is firing at your Kannon isn't firing at your Boys.

Creepy Basement Studios
18-02-2008, 04:04
The Banshees are only bad because of the overabundance of MEQs who all have T 4. If the average profile was closer to IG, Tau or Eldar they'd be much better.


Well, based upon the actual game (and said overabundance),then there's one army they are really good against (without a Doomseer babysitting them)... Sisters. And who has trouble with Sisters?! :p

catbarf
18-02-2008, 04:32
The designers stated that a unit's cost is based on it's abilities relative to the average for its army, so (in theory) IG pay premium for close combat abilities, Orks for shooting, DE for armour etc.

This is an absolutely stupid design paradigm and is the direct cause of min-maxing. The only way to have balance is to balance a unit in relation to the whole game, not just the army it's part of.

Varath- Lord Impaler
18-02-2008, 04:39
This is an absolutely stupid design paradigm and is the direct cause of min-maxing. The only way to have balance is to balance a unit in relation to the whole game, not just the army it's part of.

Catbarf, feel free to make up your own Rulebook and codices.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-02-2008, 05:29
Catbarf, feel free to make up your own Rulebook and codices.

Look out, he'll do it.

Varath- Lord Impaler
18-02-2008, 05:52
Look out, he'll do it.

Good, means we can contain all the moaning into one thread, rather than spread it plague like over the whole forum? :P

Its already caught onto about 75% of Warseers. Those of us who actually like GW and realise what they are doing are hard pressed to defend.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-02-2008, 06:48
Because Warseer hasn't been known for it's whiny members before the new Chaos Codex, have they? :rolleyes: Besides, just because he's criticizing GW's design paradigm doesn't mean he's whining.

Varath- Lord Impaler
18-02-2008, 06:56
Because Warseer hasn't been known for it's whiny members before the new Chaos Codex, have they?

But you have to admit that it wasnt as bad back then.

GW is going into its golden age and a large amount of its players are going, kicking and screaming.


Besides, just because he's criticizing GW's design paradigm doesn't mean he's whining.

But there is Criticizing and Criticizing, you understand?

A person could provide good reasons for his beliefs, he can say it 'isnt right' not that 'its stupid'.

A little niceness never hurt anyone (except the jedi ofcourse)

unclejimbo827
18-02-2008, 07:02
Because, as stated above, that officer will get curbstomped due to his IC status. That nerf bugs me; there's got to be a compromise between "ungodly good in CC" and "useless" where PF officers can land. As is powerfists are only really useful when they can be hidden; otherwise the enemy's powerfists/force weapons/character killers will slaughter them..

Isn't an IG officer not an independent character until hid command squad gets offed?

Vaktathi
18-02-2008, 07:05
Isn't an IG officer not an independent character until hid command squad gets offed?

Nope, he's an IC than can't leave his squad, it doesn't function like a Retinue.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-02-2008, 07:16
But you have to admit that it wasnt as bad back then.

GW is going into its golden age and a large amount of its players are going, kicking and screaming.



But there is Criticizing and Criticizing, you understand?

A person could provide good reasons for his beliefs, he can say it 'isnt right' not that 'its stupid'.

A little niceness never hurt anyone (except the jedi ofcourse)

I see what you mean somewhat, but I'm sure catbarf has reasons for his beliefs. I can even think of a few that I can sympathize with to an extent.


Isn't an IG officer not an independent character until hid command squad gets offed?

I don't think there's any characters that work that way now. Thus, characters with a powerfist-type weapon seem to be too much of a liability to me to be worth taking.